1. 1 Thursday, 15th April, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 10.08 a.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: (No translation)

    5 (The accused/witness entered court)

    6 MR. HAYMAN: Generally, Mr. President, we'd

    7 like to tell our client if he's going to be the subject

    8 of photography in the morning. We'd just like to tell

    9 him so he's not surprised or disturbed by something

    10 unexpected. We would make that request.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: First, the Registrar or,

    12 rather, the Presiding Judge and the other Judges were

    13 informed that the photographer would be here, and the

    14 Registrar is the one who had raised the issue. In any

    15 case, in all good faith I thought that the Defence

    16 counsel and the Prosecution counsel had been alerted.

    17 You know, this is a public hearing, and I

    18 can't see any base objection. However, in the future

    19 we will inform you, Mr. Hayman. Do you have any other

    20 comments that you'd like to make?

    21 MR. HAYMAN: No, we'd just like to be able to

    22 tell him so he won't be concerned that this is

    23 something unusual or triggered by some other event he

    24 may be unaware of, et cetera.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: I find that to be a reasonable

  2. 1 request. The witness is in a difficult position

    2 because he is now testifying. We will consider your

    3 request and proceed differently. All right. We don't

    4 have to say anything further about that.

    5 I would like now to say good morning to the

    6 interpreters. I didn't have time to say good morning,

    7 but I heard Mr. Hayman, therefore, I thought that all

    8 of the booths were working properly, and I thought that

    9 by saying good -- I would like to ask the witness to

    10 tell us whether he has not been disturbed but, you

    11 know, there are photographers that want to come in some

    12 times. Let me remind you that the ICTY was established

    13 by the International Community so that it be a public

    14 institution and the hearings are public. Nonetheless,

    15 I would turn to the witness and ask him a question.

    16 You were too disturbed by that, General

    17 Blaskic?

    18 THE ACCUSED: Good morning, Your Honours.

    19 No, I was not.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: I think, therefore, that your

    21 Defence counsel was more disturbed than you were then.

    22 THE ACCUSED: I was a bit surprised because I

    23 didn't know in advance that it would happen, that's

    24 all.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: I thought that you were just

  3. 1 going to tell me now that you were going to agree with

    2 your counsel but, all right. It doesn't matter. We

    3 can now proceed.

    4 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President, good

    5 morning Your Honours. Good morning counsel, good

    6 morning, General.

    7 THE ACCUSED: Good morning, Mr. President.


    9 Cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe:

    10 Q. General, we'd like to move back to where we

    11 left off yesterday.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Mr. Registrar, if I would look at

    13 406/46 and 406/31 [real-time transcript read 206/46 and

    14 206/31 in error]. It says 206. It should be 406,

    15 Mr. Registrar.

    16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    17 MR. KEHOE: The transcript says 206 and

    18 Mr. Harmon points out it should be 406/46 and 406/31.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's right. Thank

    20 you.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: These are Prosecution Exhibits;

    22 is that correct?

    23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

    24 Q. Now, General, 406/26 is the order that you

    25 gave out on the 5th of October of 1992 to all the

  4. 1 municipal headquarters --

    2 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me. The document that

    3 we're looking at right now is 406/26.

    4 Q. The document 406/26 that is on the ELMO now,

    5 that is in your hands, General, is the order that you

    6 gave on the 5th of October, 1992 to all the municipal

    7 headquarters asking for an urgent submission on HV

    8 officers in your unit. In response to that you said

    9 there were no HV officers in Central Bosnia.

    10 Now, let us turn to the next Exhibit which is

    11 406/31, an order dated the 26th of November, 1992 from

    12 the Zenica command.

    13 Now, you're familiar with this document,

    14 General. Is the Zenica command within the Central

    15 Bosnia Operative Zone?

    16 A. Yes, it is, but, Your Honours, I apologise,

    17 perhaps I didn't get the right interpretation, so may I

    18 repeat? The translation I heard was that with the

    19 document 406/26, I asked for the urgent deployment of

    20 HV units in the HVO of Central Bosnia. In this

    21 document 406/26, I didn't ask for the urgent deployment

    22 of HV units into the HVO of Central Bosnia.

    23 Q. There must have been a translation problem,

    24 General. The question was urgent information

    25 concerning HV officers in your area. That is what the

  5. 1 order asked for, urgent information concerning those

    2 people, to which you testified yesterday there were

    3 none.

    4 A. Yes. HV officers or HV soldiers did not

    5 exist in the HVO of Central Bosnia.

    6 Q. Let us turn to 406/31, which is the order of

    7 26 November, 1992 from the Zenica command, specifically

    8 the deputy commander of the Zenica command Zoran

    9 Covic. You just noted that the Zenica command is

    10 within the Central Bosnia Operative Zone. Is it not?

    11 A. Yes it is.

    12 Q. Zoran Covic is one of your subordinates?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. In point 3 of this particular document it

    15 notes that: "HV Croatian army members present in this

    16 region and wearing HV insignia must be warned to take

    17 them off as this creates trouble for the Republic

    18 Croatia."

    19 Now, quite clearly, Mr. Covic notes HV

    20 members in this region and the region he's talking

    21 about is the Zenica region; isn't that correct?

    22 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if we could allow

    23 the witness a few minutes to read the document. He

    24 didn't write that document, it is not his document, so

    25 he should be given a little time to read through it.

  6. 1 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Mr. President. This

    2 document came into evidence about a year and a half

    3 ago, and I think if we move things along the question

    4 should be asked of this particular witness whether or

    5 not over the last year and a half he has had the

    6 opportunity to review these documents. I can give the

    7 specific date when Mr. Cayley introduced this into

    8 evidence, but I submit to the Court it is approximately

    9 a year and a half ago.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Let me turn to the witness.

    11 Have you had the opportunity to look at this document

    12 again with your counsel?

    13 A. With my attorneys I did not see this

    14 document, but I did see the document in the courtroom

    15 during the proceedings, but I read it now.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: But the counsel has read that,

    17 hasn't he, or reread that? Counsel has read it? No?

    18 MR. NOBILO: Of course, Mr. President, but we

    19 are not testifying. We can tell you everything about

    20 that document but we are not testifying. It is a

    21 matter for the witness.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: I wasn't asking such a naive

    23 question as you might assume. I want to know what the

    24 connection was between the witness and his counsel so

    25 that we don't spend all our time reading documents, but

  7. 1 we have to make sure that the accused's rights are

    2 maintained. I was not asking such a naive question.

    3 MR. HAYMAN: There are tens of thousands of

    4 pages of documents that have been introduced,

    5 Mr. President, and something that may have been put on

    6 the ELMO a year and a half ago does not deprive the

    7 witness the right, I think, to review a document if he

    8 needs to so he can answer questions precisely and

    9 accurately. That's all we maintain.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, you're never going

    11 to make me fall into that kind of a configuration. I

    12 would not take any rights away from the accused at

    13 all. Let me remind you that the accused today is

    14 testifying as a witness. He has all the rights of a

    15 witness in addition to all the rights of the accused,

    16 but he does not have any more rights than any other

    17 witness. We have to try to manage our time properly.

    18 When we're speaking about a short document, I

    19 believe that the witness can familiarise himself

    20 quickly with that document but all the more so because

    21 I had asked the Prosecutor to focus his questions. I

    22 have to say that Mr. Kehoe is doing just that. For

    23 once, Mr. Kehoe is listening to what I'm asking him to

    24 do. I can't give him any further orders, but it's a

    25 very simple question. Let's not exaggerate. A very

  8. 1 simple question. This was an order Mr. Kehoe explained

    2 very quickly and it focuses the question on point 3.

    3 It was very simple, I think.

    4 I think for a witness like yours, that is, a

    5 witness who isn't someone who is illiterate but rather

    6 someone who is very quick-witted, he can understand the

    7 question, and I will not accept our spending too much

    8 time reading and moving documents about, otherwise,

    9 Mr. Hayman, we're going to celebrate Christmas here

    10 together concerning the Blaskic trial.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: We're not asking for too much

    12 time, but counsel is asking to deviate from the

    13 procedures that the Court has laid down. I was

    14 responding to counsel's proposal. I support the

    15 Court's practice.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. There's nothing

    17 further to say about this now. I suppose in the

    18 meantime, General Blaskic has been able to familiarise

    19 himself with the document; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes, Mr. President.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Question then, please, on point

    22 3. Thank you very much.

    23 MR. KEHOE:

    24 Q. Now, General, when Mr. Covic is talking about

    25 HV members present in this region, he is talking about

  9. 1 the Zenica region which was within the Central Bosnia

    2 Operative Zone; isn't he?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. From this order it would indicate that

    5 Mr. Covic believes that there are HV members in the

    6 Zenica area?

    7 A. I know very well that in the Operative Zone

    8 of the HVO of Central Bosnia there were no members of

    9 the Croatian army ever, and that they frequently

    10 received the same orders as they're addressed to

    11 commanders of the Operative Zone of North-western

    12 Herzegovina and Southeast Herzegovina, to check whether

    13 any Croatian army members were present. Therefore,

    14 this order is based on an order of the HVO main staff

    15 which sent the same orders to me and Commander Siljeg

    16 in the form of a circular in the Operative Zone of

    17 North-western Herzegovina, so that this order was simply

    18 copied.

    19 Q. Well, General, did you know about this order

    20 being issued on the 26th of November, 1992?

    21 A. I know that we frequently did checks of this

    22 kind. I can't say precisely regarding this date. I do

    23 know Covic. He was a taxi driver before he joined the

    24 HVO; he has no military training, therefore; and he

    25 simply copied those orders.

  10. 1 Q. Did you issue an order to the brigades and

    2 the independent units concerning the subject matter

    3 addressed in Covic's order, i.e. the HV wearing HV

    4 patches in Central Bosnia? Did you issue such an

    5 order?

    6 A. The Croatian army -- let me repeat. You

    7 asked me whether I issued an order about the Croatian

    8 army wearing Croatian army insignia. That is the

    9 question that I got. I did not issue an order about

    10 the Croatian army wearing HV insignia because there

    11 were no such troops in Central Bosnia.

    12 Q. So from your testimony, would you conclude

    13 that Covic wrote this order on his own without any

    14 instructions from the command of the Central Bosnian

    15 Operative Zone?

    16 A. No. Covic certainly received an order to

    17 verify, and he must have received such an order from

    18 the commander of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, and

    19 I believe -- there is no number here -- but I believe

    20 that he simply copied out this order, that such an

    21 order had arrived in Central Bosnia, just as it must

    22 have gone to Herzegovina, issued by the main staff.

    23 Q. So, in fact, when it came from the main

    24 staff, you issued an order and Covic responded to that

    25 order; is that right?

  11. 1 A. My command issued it. I am not sure that it

    2 was me personally because I was in Travnik in the joint

    3 command.

    4 Q. Now, in this order --

    5 JUDGE JORDA: I would like a clarification,

    6 General Blaskic. In respect of yourself, who was Covic

    7 in that structure?

    8 A. Mr. President, he was deputy commander of the

    9 staff in Zenica, the headquarters in Zenica, deputy

    10 commander of the municipal staff in Zenica.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: At that point, you were what?

    12 A. At that time, I had my forward command post

    13 in Travnik, and that is where I was in charge of the

    14 defence of Travnik with some of my associates, whereas

    15 the administrative offices of the command were still in

    16 the hotel in Vitez.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

    18 MR. KEHOE:

    19 Q. Now, General, when you say your command

    20 issued an order to the brigades, did they issue that

    21 order with your knowledge and approval?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Did you explain or did your command explain

    24 to the brigades the problems that it was creating for

    25 the Republic of Croatia, to have HV members wearing HV

  12. 1 insignia in the Central Bosnian Operative Zone?

    2 A. I repeat. There were no members of the

    3 Croatian army in the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia,

    4 but there were HVO members wearing different insignia,

    5 including HVO and the HV, and here, in document 406/31,

    6 it is stated that there were insignia associated with

    7 the Ustashe and fascist movement.

    8 This was a time when the HVO were in the

    9 process of being established. Some members would wear

    10 village insignia even. So there were various markings

    11 being used, and Commander Covic says, "In order to

    12 eliminate this in the future and in order that HVO

    13 members should wear the same insignia, I order ..."

    14 And this order consists of five points, and I believe

    15 that it was literally copied out from the command of

    16 the Operative Zone which, in turn, copied it out from

    17 an order received from the main staff because the main

    18 staff would send to all Operative Zones the same

    19 command.

    20 If 406/26 had been received from the

    21 Operative Zone of Central Bosnia, I don't think that it

    22 would have issued such an order to the Operative Zone

    23 of Central Bosnia at all.

    24 MR. KEHOE: Well, let's turn to another

    25 exhibit and another area of the Croatian Community of

  13. 1 Herceg-Bosna, and I would ask Mr. Usher for 406/36.

    2 Q. Now, General, have you seen this before? If

    3 you have seen it before, we can move through it

    4 quickly.

    5 A. Yes, I have seen it, but allow me a moment to

    6 read it.

    7 I am familiar with the document.

    8 Q. Okay, General. This is a document that was

    9 signed by Mr. Ivan Primorac, we have heard of before,

    10 the commander of the 3rd HVO Brigade in the Mostar

    11 area, 9 December, 1992, and it responds to an order

    12 issued by the Southeast Herzegovina Operative Zone of

    13 27 November, 1992.

    14 At that time, who was the commanding officer

    15 of the Southeast Herzegovina Operative Zone?

    16 A. I don't know exactly. I know that the

    17 commander of the Operative Zone of South-eastern

    18 Herzegovina was Colonel Mica Lasic, but I'm not sure

    19 that he was the commander in that period. On that

    20 date, whether he was in command or not, I'm not sure.

    21 Q. Perfectly okay, General, if you don't

    22 recall. That is fine. Let us move through this

    23 document.

    24 Regarding this order coming from the

    25 commander "regarding various insignia and symbols on

  14. 1 HVO uniforms worn as opposed to the symbols stipulated

    2 by the Decree on Herceg-Bosna Armed Forces which, as

    3 such, compromise the reputation of HVO and HV members

    4 by implying ideas which the world media may interpret

    5 as fascistic, I hereby order ..."

    6 Now, in the order that you got from the main

    7 command on this subject, did the main staff indicate

    8 that the media was talking about fascistic ideas; do

    9 you recall that?

    10 A. It is hard for me to recall that now, but

    11 possibly it did because this order from the command of

    12 South-eastern Herzegovina has virtually the same heading

    13 and preamble as Zoran Covic's order that we were

    14 examining a moment ago. So that clearly the main

    15 command, as I said, sent out circular orders regarding

    16 the same issue. When I say "issued," I meant to all

    17 the Operative Zones without taking into consideration

    18 the reports received from the Operative Zones regarding

    19 that problem, because if it had, there would have been

    20 no need to issue such an order to the Operative Zone of

    21 Central Bosnia.

    22 Q. So the main staff was issuing orders to the

    23 Operative Zones knowing that they were going to get

    24 back information that there were no HV members, at

    25 least in your Operative Zone; is that what you're

  15. 1 saying?

    2 A. No. What I'm trying to say is that the main

    3 command sent orders to all the zones without taking

    4 into consideration reports received from us. So that

    5 if, even though they had a report saying that there

    6 were no HV members, clearly the main command issued an

    7 order to South-eastern Herzegovina and Central Bosnia

    8 regarding insignia covering all the issues consisting

    9 of six items in document 406/36.

    10 Q. General, at this time, when the Covic order

    11 goes out and during the time frame when the Primorac

    12 order goes out, were you aware that the presence and

    13 the allegations of the presence of HV troops in

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina was causing problems for the

    15 Republic of Croatia?

    16 A. Your Honours, in the period of November and

    17 December, I claim with full responsibility that I was

    18 in Travnik, and I didn't know whether we would be able

    19 to hold on to Travnik or not, and there I had meetings

    20 with UNPROFOR officers, I went to the feature called

    21 Mescema on the first front lines, and the only thing I

    22 remember -- I was not aware of what you are asking me

    23 about. The only thing I was aware of was the need to

    24 defend the town of Travnik and hold onto it.

    25 Q. So when Covic wrote in his order of 406/31

  16. 1 that the wearing of HVO insignia -- HV insignia creates

    2 trouble for the people of Croatia, you don't know

    3 anything about that; is that what you're saying?

    4 MR. HAYMAN: Asked and answered,

    5 Mr. President. Counsel is arguing with the witness.

    6 The witness is perfectly clear on this.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: No, there was no answer. I'm

    8 sorry, Mr. Hayman, but there was no answer to the

    9 question. This is a different question now. Up to

    10 this point, the witness said that he -- well, that

    11 either orders were re-copied or that HV soldiers were

    12 not in his command area. It is an old answer and we

    13 are taking note of it. But the witness also said that

    14 general circulars were issued in that way by the

    15 central headquarters to all the command areas, which

    16 was his own. Now this is a different question. And

    17 the third answer of your witness was to say that

    18 frequently the orders were re-copied. I have the

    19 impression that many things were re-copied at that

    20 point. I think there is a lot of copying work going

    21 on. But anyway, that doesn't matter.

    22 There were three types of answers that the

    23 witness gave. The question now is additional, saying,

    24 "All right, very well. You were re-copying things.

    25 There was no HV in your command zone. That's fine.

  17. 1 Now the question is: Did you know that there were

    2 possibly HV soldiers when you read those circulars?"

    3 And the witness could say that he didn't even read the

    4 circulars. That's possible. But we are going to hear

    5 his answer.

    6 Therefore, I consider that the answer was not

    7 given, and I will ask the Prosecutor to ask the

    8 question again.

    9 MR. KEHOE:

    10 Q. General, my question is this: Were you aware

    11 that the allegations that soldiers had HV insignia,

    12 that allegation by the International Community was

    13 causing problems for the Republic of Croatia? Did you

    14 understand my question, sir?

    15 A. That soldiers wearing Croatian army insignia

    16 were causing problems for the Republic of Croatia? Was

    17 that your question? I didn't quite get it.

    18 Q. That is my question.

    19 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the translation I

    20 got doesn't have any meaning. The question, the way I

    21 understood it, and it was in the same language as the

    22 witness, whether soldiers bearing Croatian army

    23 insignia were causing difficulties for the Republic of

    24 Croatia. Of course, the Croatian army has all soldiers

    25 with HV insignia.

  18. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [interpretation cuts in]

    2 ... question. See if there's an interpretation --

    3 Croatian.

    4 General Blaskic, do you know whether at that

    5 point there were allegations that the presence of

    6 Croatian army soldiers could create problems for the

    7 Republic of Croatia? That's the question. Do you

    8 understand me, what I'm saying to you?

    9 A. I am familiar with this order that I received

    10 from the main command and I know that something like

    11 that was said in the preamble.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Firstly I am asking whether you

    13 understood my question, and we will see whether the

    14 interpreters are operating properly. It is a very

    15 simple question. I ask the question: Did you know

    16 that there were allegations circulating according to

    17 which the presence of soldiers wearing Croatian

    18 uniforms might cause problems for the Republic of

    19 Croatia?

    20 Has my question been properly interpreted?

    21 What did you understand in my question? I'm going to

    22 get to the very end of this issue of interpretation.

    23 We are not going to go all the way to July speaking

    24 about interpretation problems. I am prepared to be

    25 sure that there is disciplined interpretation, but we

  19. 1 have to know what we're talking about.

    2 What did you understand as the question?

    3 A. Whether I knew that allegations on the

    4 presence of Croatian soldiers in Bosnia-Herzegovina

    5 were causing difficulties for the Republic of Croatia.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to thank the

    7 interpreters who are doing their work properly.

    8 All right. Now, please answer the question.

    9 A. I knew about that on the basis of the orders

    10 I was receiving from the main HVO staff, but that was

    11 not my main concern in my work in Central Bosnia

    12 because I knew that there were no such soldiers there

    13 at the time.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Judge Rodrigues

    15 would like to ask a question.

    16 Thank you. That is the type of coherent

    17 answer, and it's your answer, and it will be noted as

    18 such. Judge Rodrigues.

    19 Excuse me, Mr. Kehoe.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: General, I have a question

    21 I'd like to ask and here it is: Do you have in front

    22 of you the two documents that we are dealing with now?

    23 A. I have document /36 in front of me now,

    24 406/36.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So it's the document which

  20. 1 was signed by Mr. Primarac; is that correct? In the

    2 original -- do you have the original? I mean, the

    3 original in Serbo-Croatian.

    4 A. Yes, I have the original, Your Honour.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: What does it say under

    6 point 5?

    7 A. I do not have point 5. I have 1, 2, 3, 4,

    8 and 6.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. Point 5 is

    10 missing.

    11 A. Point 5 is missing on this document.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: This is my question: As

    13 Judge Jorda said, there was a lot of work being done by

    14 people copying things. The individual who issued the

    15 order, understanding that he would not be able to

    16 verify the actual situation in order to respond to the

    17 questions asked about the order that had been received,

    18 did he merely not answer?

    19 I can ask my question a different way. I'll

    20 do that. Did those people who were supposed to respond

    21 to an order for information -- they didn't have any

    22 information and, therefore, did not refer to this

    23 number. Could one think that way? Because, as you

    24 said -- I don't know what Mr. Primorac's training was,

    25 but the other deputy was a taxi driver and, therefore,

  21. 1 the person could have thought, "I don't have any

    2 information. Therefore, I won't answer."

    3 A. Your Honours, this is a document from the

    4 Operative Zone of Southeast Herzegovina, Mostar,

    5 Capljina, Stolac. Therefore, it is not the Central

    6 Bosnia area. I don't know what the situation was like

    7 then in Mostar. This is the 3rd Brigade, which was in

    8 Mostar.

    9 Quite possibly at that time there was some

    10 Croatian army there with them, because it is the

    11 southern part towards Neum, Ploce, Stolac, and

    12 Capljina, but what I was talking about is that the same

    13 order was received for the whole of Herceg-Bosna, which

    14 means the main staff sent a circular order, the same

    15 orders for this check to be undertaken. That is why I

    16 said that probably in these frequent checks that were

    17 made the main staff did not always check the

    18 information from the Operative Zones.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: General, now we get to the

    20 very heart of the issue. There was a general situation

    21 in Mostar and information was being asked from all the

    22 different zones, but it might happen that in one zone

    23 the information was not available but that information

    24 might exist in another zone, and the zone where there

    25 was no information didn't respond, was simply -- not

  22. 1 put anything in. Instead of saying about point 5, "I

    2 have no information," and simply saying nothing. Is

    3 that possible?

    4 A. We always checked orders of this kind. So

    5 regardless of whether I have or do not have them, I

    6 copy out the order and perform a check because it is an

    7 enormous area and various things can happen. So all

    8 the reports that I received back to me I send on to the

    9 main staff. The problem is, and I believe that the

    10 problem was, whether the main staff exercised checks of

    11 this kind vis-à-vis the reports that it received from

    12 the Operative Zones.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: General, imagine or let's

    14 say that from the main staff you received an order

    15 asking you for information about whether there were HV

    16 soldiers in your zone. You are a person, as the

    17 presiding Judge has already said, who is extremely

    18 intelligent, and you could answer by saying, "I don't

    19 have information that I can give you because the

    20 situation has not been checked." Perhaps you provide

    21 that, but the taxi driver, who does not have your kind

    22 of background, your kind of training, could that taxi

    23 driver admit or could he not admit that type of

    24 information?

    25 A. I didn't quite understand the latter half of

  23. 1 your question. Can the taxi driver omit that type of

    2 information, omit?

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Instead of saying, I "don't

    4 have information" -- under point 5, instead of saying,

    5 "I don't have information to give you," you, who

    6 having the kind of training that you have, I assume

    7 that you can answer that way, but is it possible that a

    8 taxi driver, faced with the situation, could answer by

    9 saying nothing at all, that is, not answer, say

    10 nothing? Point 5. That he could simply draw a line,

    11 leave it blank. Is that possible?

    12 A. I never, or it was not standard practice to

    13 proceed in that way and say that in my zone there were

    14 no such soldiers, for the simple reason that the zone

    15 is such a large one that during my entire service I was

    16 never able to tour it all, unfortunately. What I did

    17 was that my associates, the administrative personnel

    18 that I had, would copy out the order and send it to all

    19 the municipal staff. Then the municipal staff would

    20 copy out the same thing once again, either in the form

    21 of an order or in the form of the report, and send it

    22 back once they had checked it out.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, General. Thank

    24 you very much.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe.

  24. 1 MR. KEHOE:

    2 Q. General, in response to a question of Judge

    3 Rodrigues, you noted that in December of 1992 when

    4 Primorac wrote this order 406/36, that quite possibly

    5 HVO soldiers may have been in the Mostar area -- excuse

    6 me, HV soldiers were in the Mostar area. Do you recall

    7 saying that to Judge Rodrigues?

    8 A. That it was possible that they were in that

    9 area. Perhaps they were. I wasn't in that area. That

    10 is why I say, I don't see any logic as to why checks

    11 should be carried out as to the presence of the

    12 Croatian army unless they were somewhere within the

    13 totality of the community of Herceg-Bosna.

    14 Q. Well, were they there, sir? Were there HV

    15 soldiers there?

    16 A. If you're asking me personally, I personally

    17 did not see them and I do not have any direct

    18 information as to whether they were or were not. I

    19 personally did not see them, but I heard that --

    20 rumours were going around that there was this presence.

    21 Q. Well, who did you learn this from, that there

    22 were HV soldiers in the Mostar area?

    23 A. There were various talks with international

    24 officers, officers of UNPROFOR. For example, they

    25 asked me whether aid would be sent from the Croatian

  25. 1 army to Central Bosnia. I remember very well on one

    2 occasion I was asked by one of the commanders of the

    3 UNPROFOR battalion in 1993, then there was information

    4 broadcast over the radio that there were members of the

    5 Croatian army, and I was informed of this by the system

    6 for information but, as I say, I personally never saw

    7 them and I never talked to those members.

    8 Q. Well, in your struggles, General, would HV

    9 soldiers and the deployment of HV soldiers to your area

    10 have helped your situation?

    11 A. Soldiers of the Croatian army in the Central

    12 Bosnia Operative Zone, they did not exist there, but of

    13 every soldier who wanted to include himself into the

    14 defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time, and we're

    15 talking about 1992, November or December of 1992, would

    16 have been welcome for help and assistance. Any help to

    17 the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina would have been

    18 welcomed. So any volunteer, as I say, would have been

    19 welcomed.

    20 Q. Well, General, when you learned from the

    21 international sources as well as media sources that

    22 there were HV troops around Mostar, did you discuss

    23 that matter with the main staff, with the hope that

    24 they would send those troops up to Central Bosnia?

    25 A. I personally do not recall that I had talks

  26. 1 of that kind, because the situation was as it was since

    2 January 1993, that is to say, the area of Central

    3 Bosnia was isolated in terms of communication, and I

    4 can't see where they could have sent them.

    5 Q. Well, General, at the time this order was

    6 issued, General Praljak seemed to be present on several

    7 occasions in Central Bosnia. Did you discuss with

    8 General Praljak, an HV General, the possibility of

    9 sending HV troops to Central Bosnia?

    10 A. General Praljak went for management purposes

    11 to the explosives factory to talk to the directors

    12 there. As I said, he was there on two or three

    13 occasions, but I did not discuss this matter with him.

    14 I think that it was matters of the joint command that

    15 talked to him, particularly with regard to matters of

    16 ammunition and defence for the defence of Travnik in

    17 that period. That was our priority at the time, and

    18 the defence went from the joint command of the BH army

    19 and the HVO.

    20 Q. Well, General, let us address ourselves back

    21 to Exhibit 406/36, and the issue that I would want to

    22 discuss with you is point 3, wherein that Mr. Primorac

    23 writes: "Wearing HVO insignia is linked to accusations

    24 against the Republic of Croatia, and the Croatian

    25 Community of Herceg-Bosna regarding a direct deployment

  27. 1 of HV units in the territory of the Croatian Community

    2 of Herceg-Bosna. Ask HV members (with explanation) to

    3 wear HVO insignia during their employment (sic) in the

    4 area."

    5 Now, my question for you, General, is this

    6 order orders that HV troops be disguised as HVO troops;

    7 isn't that correct?

    8 A. Once again, I did not receive the

    9 interpretation as it is written in what I have here.

    10 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Kehoe, the B/C/S booth

    11 doesn't have a copy of the original B/C/S text and this

    12 is causing problems.

    13 MR. NOBILO: We have an objection.

    14 MR. HAYMAN: The translation was

    15 "employment."

    16 MR. KEHOE: Mr. Hayman is right. It should

    17 be "deployment" to the area.

    18 Q. Now, General, this particular order -- I'm

    19 sorry, Judge.

    20 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

    22 MR. KEHOE:

    23 Q. Now, General, this order by Mr. Primorac

    24 orders that HV members disguise themselves, with an

    25 explanation, by wearing HVO insignia; isn't that so?

  28. 1 JUDGE JORDA: I'm sorry, what order are we

    2 talking about here?

    3 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Mr. President. We're

    4 talking about order 406/36, and the point of reference

    5 is point 3. Paragraph 3.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: All right. 406, paragraph 36

    7 (sic), paragraph 3.

    8 A. I understand this order as it is stated in

    9 point 3, that during the time they spend on our

    10 territory, the members of the HV should wear insignia

    11 of the HVO and the area is Mostar. The date is on the

    12 9th, '92. That is to say, during their stay there.

    13 MR. KEHOE:

    14 Q. My question to you, General, is with an

    15 explanation. This order orders HV troops deployed to

    16 the area to disguise themselves as HVO troops by

    17 changing the shoulder patch; isn't that correct?

    18 A. I cannot see from this point here that the

    19 order is to issue orders to the Croatian army to deploy

    20 in this territory, but they are asked during the time

    21 they spend in that territory that they wear the HVO

    22 insignia in the Mostar region, while they are in the

    23 Mostar area. But it does not order that Croatian army

    24 troops be deployed in the area in point 3.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, I would like to give

  29. 1 the floor to Judge Shahabuddeen.

    2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: General, would you say

    3 that paragraph 3 of this order was concerned only with

    4 the wearing of emblems? Did it say that HV troops

    5 should not be in the area or did it say that any HV

    6 troops in the area should wear HVO insignia? Look at

    7 the last two lines of paragraph 3.

    8 A. Your Honours, in point 3, I understand point

    9 3 to mean the following, that it is asked that HVO

    10 insignia be worn by individuals so as to avoid

    11 accusations about the direct engagement of the HV in

    12 the Herceg-Bosna region, and in the last section, it

    13 asks the HV members, during their stay in the region,

    14 to wear HVO insignia.

    15 I said that there were situations where the

    16 members of the HV, and if I may, I can quote examples,

    17 can go on leave because they signed a professional

    18 contract with the Croatian army, and so during their

    19 sojourn in Bosnia-Herzegovina, while they are on leave,

    20 they perhaps wear HV insignia. I did not talk to

    21 Mr. Primorac about point 3 or about this document at

    22 all. But it is clearly stated here, members of the HV,

    23 during their sojourn in our area. Now, why they are in

    24 that area -- were they included into combat

    25 operations? It is in December 1992, and as far as I

  30. 1 know, in December '92, that was the time when the HVO

    2 and the BH army acted together. It was the time when

    3 we had our best cooperation.

    4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let me follow that up by

    5 asking this question: Did the arrangements mean that

    6 any HV soldiers would continue to be HV soldiers

    7 subject to their wearing HVO insignia or did the

    8 arrangements mean that any HV soldiers in the area

    9 would become HVO soldiers upon wearing HVO insignia?

    10 A. I personally can say what I believe with

    11 respect to the time period in question and my comment

    12 on it. Every soldier of the HV who, for any reason,

    13 that is to say, individual, found himself on the

    14 territory of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,

    15 according to this particular point, should have placed

    16 the HVO insignia on, if he had gone to visit his

    17 family, for example, or to visit his wife or parents or

    18 generally if he was present on the territory of the

    19 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. Because it says

    20 here "Ask" them, "Ask" them. Had it been a question of

    21 the army, the words would have been "Order" them, but

    22 it says "Ask HVO members (with explanation), during

    23 their deployment in our area, to wear HVO insignia," if

    24 they were on leave and came to the territory of

    25 Herceg-Bosna at that particular time, if they were

  31. 1 present in the area.

    2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: General, I know that any

    3 HV soldiers deployed in the area were required to wear

    4 HVO insignia. What I am asking is this: Would such an

    5 HV soldier remain an HV soldier even during the period

    6 when he was wearing HVO insignia or would such an HV

    7 soldier be transformed into an HVO soldier during the

    8 period when he was wearing HVO insignia?

    9 A. I can comment on the question. Because I do

    10 not have certain information on that, I can just give

    11 my comment.

    12 I think that a soldier wearing HVO insignia

    13 would be an HVO soldier and had there been units

    14 engaged -- I said that I heard rumours about that but

    15 not first-hand, I didn't hear this information

    16 first-hand, about HV units on this territory. We

    17 looked at this at different time periods, and mentioned

    18 this yesterday, with the different tasks and

    19 assignments involved. At one time it was to prevent an

    20 occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina; another time,

    21 unfortunately, it was a time when there were conflicts

    22 between what were allies, between the BH army and the

    23 HVO.

    24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: So if such an HV soldier

    25 were to become an HVO soldier during the period when he

  32. 1 was wearing HVO insignia, would that help you to answer

    2 Mr. Kehoe's question as to whether such an HV soldier

    3 was disguising himself as an HVO soldier?

    4 A. If such a soldier had been demobilised, Your

    5 Honours, in the Croatian army, and received documents

    6 that his active duty in the Croatian army had been

    7 terminated, and, to give an example, if he was going

    8 back to his native village and would go there to

    9 contact the competent authorities of National Defence

    10 and informs that active service had been discontinued

    11 and if he receives a new war assignment within some HVO

    12 unit, then, for me, that soldier would be an HVO

    13 soldier.

    14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: If that HV soldier was

    15 not demobilised within the Croatian army, would I be

    16 right in supposing that that HV soldier would continue

    17 to be an HV soldier during the period when he was

    18 wearing HVO insignia?

    19 A. Of course. If he had not been demobilised in

    20 the Croatian army.

    21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I thank you, General.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: I have an explanation or

    23 clarification I would like to give you. Still talking

    24 about point 3 of 406/36. Can one deduce from this

    25 order that comes from Mr. Primorac, who is an important

  33. 1 person, can we deduce that the direct deployment of

    2 units from Croatia existed, in fact?

    3 A. Mr. President, I would just like to emphasise

    4 that it is difficult for me to conclude something of

    5 the kind if I read this document and which says, "Ask

    6 HV members (with explanation) to wear HVO insignia

    7 during their deployment in our area." I would say,

    8 "Ask a soldier while executing assignments in the

    9 area," and I wouldn't say "Ask," I wouldn't use the

    10 word "Ask."

    11 JUDGE JORDA: I am asking you to listen to my

    12 question very carefully. When a very high-ranking

    13 soldier -- I am going to speak slowly so there is no

    14 interpretation problem.

    15 When he takes the trouble to put in point 3

    16 the sentence saying that HVO insignia is linked to

    17 accusations against the Republic of Croatia and the

    18 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna regarding direct

    19 deployment of HV units, could that be read or

    20 interpreted as meaning that the direct deployment, in

    21 fact, existed, that there was direct deployment? Can

    22 it be read that way? I am not saying whether you read

    23 it that way, but could it be read that way? Could it

    24 be read that way?

    25 A. It could be read in that way, Mr. President.

  34. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Let me give you an example, a

    2 metaphor. If, within this Trial Chamber, I were to

    3 read one evening, "Be careful or take care of the model

    4 here," could that be interpreted as meaning that the

    5 model, in fact, was in the courtroom? You understand

    6 my question? I'm not asking whether you agree, whether

    7 you agree about the substance, I simply want to know

    8 whether one could conclude that from having read the

    9 sentence?

    10 When I say to the security service, "Be

    11 careful not to photograph the accused very early in the

    12 morning," could one then assume that there would be a

    13 photographer? It is a semantic issue. Do you

    14 understand what I'm asking you?

    15 Could it be read that way, that there was

    16 direct HV deployment? I'm not talking about

    17 Mr. Covic. The taxi driver didn't sign. It was a very

    18 high-ranking individual who did. Could it be read that

    19 way?

    20 A. Mr. President, the direct engagement existed

    21 in 1992. We saw that yesterday looking through many of

    22 the documents. But we are talking about December 1992;

    23 and when I look at that date, I am trying to remember

    24 the circumstances as far as I knew them, what they were

    25 at the time, and that is why I said that it was a time

  35. 1 when we had ideal cooperation between the two commands,

    2 between the HVO and the BH army, in the fight against

    3 the army of the Republika Srpska.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: In other words, you are saying

    5 that it could be read that way but that, in fact, there

    6 was no direct deployment in December 1992? Is that

    7 what you're saying?

    8 A. I personally did not see nor did I have

    9 direct knowledge on this. Possibly there could have

    10 been. It is possible that there was.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: All right. It's possible that

    12 there was. You see, it was a bit long, but we got to

    13 the answer; that is, it could be read that way.

    14 Therefore, my comment is the following: If

    15 we start by saying that there was direct deployment or

    16 that there could have been direct deployment, at that

    17 point we understand the last sentence very clearly.

    18 That means that we have to ask the HV members to wear

    19 the HVO insignia. But this is only one interpretation

    20 given by a humble judge from the International Criminal

    21 Tribunal who perhaps went too far and who also needs a

    22 15-minute break.

    23 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

    24 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume the

  36. 1 hearing. Please be seated.

    2 Excuse me, Mr. Kehoe, but Judge Shahabuddeen

    3 would like to ask a question.

    4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: General, I want to

    5 return to the questions I was putting to you and to

    6 conclude the line of inquiry which was asking this:

    7 Were the new arrangements which required HV soldiers to

    8 wear HVO insignia to take effect automatically and

    9 immediately?

    10 A. Your Honour, I am not familiar in the way in

    11 which this took place and what kind of arrangements

    12 were made, but I could assume -- I can only express my

    13 views or understanding, and that would be that a

    14 commander would issue orders to a unit to attach other

    15 insignia, but I do not know. I have no information as

    16 to how this took place.

    17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you be able to

    18 tell us whether all HV soldiers were demobilised from

    19 the Croatian army before they started to wear HVO

    20 insignia or whether it was the case that some HV

    21 soldiers continued to be in the Croatian army after

    22 they began to wear HVO insignia?

    23 A. Your Honour, I believe that quite a number of

    24 soldiers of the Croatian army who had been terminated

    25 in the Croatian army on various grounds, who were

  37. 1 demobilised, who returned to Bosnia-Herzegovina and

    2 were then mobilised to the HVO or the BH army. So that

    3 applied to one group of those soldiers or individuals.

    4 I also believe that there were some soldiers,

    5 possibly even smaller units, which wore HVO insignia

    6 and were actually in the HV but there were no such

    7 soldiers in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone. My

    8 belief is based on what I heard but not from any direct

    9 knowledge that I have.

    10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: General, thank you.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President.

    13 Q. So those soldiers that you just talked about

    14 that were in the HV but were wearing HVO insignia were

    15 soldiers that were trying to disguise their true

    16 identity; is that correct?

    17 A. Such individuals probably tried to do that.

    18 Q. Was that a common practice in the HVO?

    19 A. As far as I know, it was not the practice in

    20 the HVO, if you're referring to '92 and '93, in the

    21 area where I was. I can only speak about that area.

    22 As to what was happening in South-eastern Herzegovina at

    23 the time, I don't know because I wasn't there.

    24 Q. General, one last question on 406/36 in

    25 paragraph 3. The word "deployment" is used twice, the

  38. 1 direct employment of HV units and talking about HV

    2 members during their deployment.

    3 In your military lexicon, what is the

    4 definition of the word "deployment"?

    5 A. In point 3, in the Croatian language, in the

    6 text before me, it says: "Is linked to accusations

    7 about the direct engagement of HV units," but then

    8 further on did says: "Members of the HV should be

    9 asked (with explanation) during their stay in our area

    10 to wear HVO insignia."

    11 I have already said that reference is made to

    12 members of the HV, individuals who are to be asked,

    13 while staying in this area, to wear HVO insignia. As a

    14 soldier, I don't understand why the order "order" is

    15 not used.

    16 Secondly, when it says, "Members of the HV,"

    17 it doesn't say "HV units."

    18 Q. General, let's move on.

    19 MR. KEHOE: If I could have the witness take

    20 a look at 406/10 and then 406/54.

    21 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

    23 MR. KEHOE:

    24 Q. Now, for reference purposes, General, in

    25 406/10, this is the order we discussed yesterday, that

  39. 1 General Bobetko gives order to, in number 2, Zeljko

    2 Siljeg. Now, Mr. Siljeg ultimately became the

    3 commander of the Northwest Herzegovina Operative Zone

    4 as we can see in 406/54; is that right?

    5 A. Yes, that is correct. In the document dated

    6 12 April, 1993, the commander of the Operative Zone of

    7 North-western Herzegovina is Zeljko Siljeg.

    8 Q. And in this order by Siljeg on the 12th of

    9 April, 1993, we no longer have a problem with insignia

    10 but this letter coming from the main staff asks for

    11 records and defining the status of HV officers in the

    12 HVO. Pursuant to that he issues the order: "Submit a

    13 list of all HV officers present in your units and the

    14 headquarters."

    15 In number 2, Siljeg wants the father's name,

    16 last name and, "submit the orders which authorised his

    17 referral to the HVO, rank and no. of decree of

    18 promotion (reserve and career) and the duty he is

    19 currently carrying out in your army and the duties he

    20 has carried out so far."

    21 Now, this particular document references in

    22 number 2 references two. It says: "The orders which

    23 authorise the HV officer's referral to the HVO."

    24 Now who would execute that order, the HV or

    25 the HVO?

  40. 1 A. My understanding of this order is that it

    2 would be issued in the HV, that is, an order

    3 terminating active military service, and then officers

    4 with complete files would move to the HVO.

    5 Q. This next comment that it says: "The number

    6 of decree of promotion." Is that, likewise, an HV

    7 document or is that an HVO document?

    8 A. When you request termination of service, and

    9 if you have a particular rank, then the rank would be

    10 indicated and everything else. That is my assumption.

    11 Then that person would go to the new command and report

    12 to the new command with all these documents.

    13 Q. General, how far is Gornji Vakuf away from

    14 Vitez and your headquarters?

    15 A. I don't know the exact number of kilometres,

    16 because there was no road before the war between Gornji

    17 Vakuf and Vitez, there was just a mountain pass. The

    18 road was built during the war. I think it is about an

    19 hour's drive along that road.

    20 Q. During the conflict that was taking place in

    21 Gornji Vakuf in January of 1993, you were getting daily

    22 situation reports or routine situation reports from

    23 Gornji Vakuf as to what was happening; weren't you?

    24 A. I would occasionally get reports. They were

    25 not daily, but I would get reports about what was

  41. 1 happening, as many as I could get, since this was the

    2 zone of responsibility of the 3rd Corps of

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina which had its own command in Zenica.

    4 Q. During this conflict with the army of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina in January of 1993, Siljeg was the

    6 commander of the Northwest Herzegovina Operative Zone;

    7 is that right?

    8 A. Just a moment, please. The translation was

    9 wrong. So now I understand. Yes. As far as I know,

    10 Siljeg was the commander of the Operative Zone of

    11 North-western Herzegovina.

    12 Q. Did Siljeg have HV troops fighting with him

    13 against the Muslims during this January conflict?

    14 A. I don't know about that, whether he had or

    15 did not have any Croatian army forces. I have no

    16 direct knowledge about that.

    17 Q. Did you discuss it with him?

    18 A. With him personally? I did not, as far as I

    19 can recollect.

    20 Q. Well, when you became the deputy chief of

    21 staff or the chief of staff of the HVO, did you learn

    22 that there had been HV troops fighting with the HV in

    23 Gornji Vakuf against the Muslims in January of 1993?

    24 A. I learned that there were individuals. We

    25 didn't specify the time, was it January or sometime

  42. 1 later but, as far as I can recollect, it was a unit

    2 consisting of Croats who were by birth from

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Whether it was a battalion or the

    4 175th Brigade I don't know, but I know that there were

    5 such cases and we did discuss this later.

    6 Q. So, General, there were, in fact, HV troops

    7 fighting with the HVO in Gornji Vakuf against the

    8 Muslims in January of 1993; is that what you're saying?

    9 A. I am not looking at the transcript, and I

    10 don't understand it anyway, but let me repeat your

    11 question.

    12 There were HV troops fighting with the HVO in

    13 January '93 against the Muslims?

    14 Q. That's correct.

    15 A. There were conflicts between the HVO and the

    16 BH army in January 1993 in Gornji Vakuf. I think the

    17 translation --

    18 MR. NOBILO: A double mistake in the

    19 translation. The translation of what Mr. Kehoe said

    20 was wrong because the translation was that HVO and HVO

    21 troops were fighting in Gornji Vakuf, and then when the

    22 witness wanted to check that question and repeated it,

    23 then the English translation was misinterpreted as if

    24 the witness has asked whether HV and HVO troops were

    25 fighting together. So we had a double error, first

  43. 1 from English into B/C/S and then from B/C/S into

    2 English. Mr. Kehoe's question was whether HV and HVO

    3 troops were fighting in Gornji Vakuf.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, all right. Thank you.

    5 MR. KEHOE:

    6 Q. While we are waiting for this document,

    7 General, the Ante Starcevic Brigade is part of the

    8 Northwest Herzegovina Operative Zone, isn't it?

    9 A. I think it is, yes.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: This is 600 and 600A for the

    11 English version.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, there is no French

    13 copy of this as yet, so I will put it on the ELMO and

    14 read it slowly.

    15 Q. This comes from Dr. Ante Starcevic Brigade in

    16 Gornji Vakuf. The date is 22 February, 1993. It goes

    17 to the 4th Split Brigade, Drazevac Barracks, Split.

    18 Ms. Dragica Hamer. Pardon my pronunciation.

    19 Now, the 4th Split Brigade, General, is an HV

    20 brigade [real-time transcript read "HVO" in error],

    21 isn't it?

    22 A. Yes, the 4th Split Brigade is a brigade of

    23 the Croatian army.

    24 Q. It reads as follows:

    25 "Further to your inquiry regarding the death

  44. 1 of your combatant, Stanko Posavac, son of Frano, from

    2 Gornji Vakuf, it was established that Stanko Posavac

    3 took part in the fighting between the so-called BH Army

    4 and the HVO in Gornji Vakuf and was wounded by a sniper

    5 bullet on 13 January 1993 at M. Tita Street /no number/

    6 in Gornji Vakuf. He was transferred the same day to

    7 the Firule Hospital in Split where he died between 1700

    8 and 1800 hours on 25 January, 1993. For reasons of

    9 security, he was buried at the Paloc local cemetery at

    10 1800 hours on 27 January, 1993."

    11 Do you recognise that stamp, General?

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Mr. Kehoe. I

    13 want to stop for a moment here because we have the

    14 English transcript in front of us. On line 17, you

    15 asked: "The 4th Split Brigade is an HVO brigade, isn't

    16 it?" Answer: "Yes, it is a brigade of the Croatian

    17 army."

    18 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Judge. The question

    19 should have been: Was the 4th Split Brigade an HV

    20 brigade?

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes. But in the

    22 transcript, it is "HVO."

    23 MR. KEHOE: If I could correct that? Thank

    24 you, Judge.

    25 Q. The 4th Split Brigade is an HV brigade, isn't

  45. 1 it?

    2 A. Yes, that is so.

    3 Q. General, do you recognise this stamp and do

    4 you know Mr. Tokic?

    5 A. I do recognise the stamp and I do know

    6 Mr. Zrinko Tokic, and this document speaks of this

    7 soldier, belonging to the 4th Brigade, was probably

    8 born in Gornji Vakuf and that he was killed in fighting

    9 in Gornji Vakuf.

    10 Q. Were other HV soldiers killed while they were

    11 fighting in Gornji Vakuf?

    12 A. I really do not know. This document is dated

    13 the 22nd February, 1993. At the time, I couldn't even

    14 reach my command in Vitez because I was blocked in

    15 Kiseljak. It is possible that they did, but I don't

    16 know.

    17 Q. General, this particular document, a copy of

    18 it goes to the welfare coordinator in the Drazevac

    19 barracks in Split. Was it the normal practice of the

    20 Croatian army to keep records of their soldiers who

    21 were killed and wounded?

    22 A. It is the practice of every army to keep

    23 records of how they are and whether they are killed or

    24 wounded. This applies not only to the Croatian army

    25 but to every army.

  46. 1 MR. KEHOE: Let me show you another document,

    2 General, another new document, Mr. President.

    3 Q. While we are waiting for this document,

    4 General, and just a follow-up from my last question

    5 concerning records that are kept on the death of

    6 soldiers. Is it your experience, General, that as part

    7 of this record keeping within the Croatian army and any

    8 army, that the army keeps track of where their soldiers

    9 were killed, the location of where their soldiers were

    10 killed?

    11 A. I don't think I've understood your question

    12 correctly again. Whether I knew the locality where the

    13 soldiers were killed? Is that what you were asking?

    14 If so, I'll answer.

    15 Q. General, I'm asking you if, when an army

    16 keeps records of where their soldiers were killed, did

    17 they also keep records of the geographic location where

    18 their soldiers were either killed or wounded?

    19 A. I didn't specially work on assignments of

    20 that type. In Herceg-Bosna and in the HVO, a civilian

    21 committee existed for those persons listed missing or

    22 killed, and it had standardised forms that were filled

    23 out and cooperated with international representatives

    24 in that regard. I myself do not know what the form

    25 looks like, actually, and how these records are, in

  47. 1 fact, kept.

    2 Q. Well, to your knowledge, did the HV keep that

    3 information?

    4 A. I repeat. I did not work on tasks of that

    5 kind. I know that there is a committee for the

    6 exchange of missing persons, detainees, and persons

    7 killed, and that that committee has its own protocol

    8 and standards according to which it functions, but I

    9 repeat, I never worked within a commission of that kind

    10 and I don't know the records or the forms used in that

    11 task.

    12 Q. General, let's move to the document that we

    13 have before us. We talked just briefly -- I'm sorry, I

    14 didn't get a number on that. I'm sorry,

    15 Mr. Registrar.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: This is 601, 601A for the

    17 French version.

    18 MR. KEHOE:

    19 Q. Now, General, we talked about just previously

    20 the order that Colonel Siljeg issued on the 12th of

    21 April asking for the list of HVO officers present in

    22 your unit and headquarters, and at 601, we have another

    23 document signed by Mr. Zrinko Tokic of the Ante

    24 Starcevic Brigade in Gornji Vakuf.

    25 A. A little slower, please. I just can't

  48. 1 follow.

    2 Q. We will read this document, sir, so you will

    3 be able to follow it word by word.

    4 This is a document that is dated the 16th of

    5 May, 1993, to the 2nd Brigade of the Croatian army. It

    6 discusses the "Request to leave your officer, Mate

    7 Kunkic, at our disposal in the zone of responsibility

    8 of our brigade."

    9 "- Given that we are familiar with your

    10 plan to withdraw officer Mate Kunkic from this area

    11 soon (because of your plans and needs), we ask you not

    12 to do so until further notice for the following

    13 reasons.

    14 "- You know that there is a bitter struggle

    15 in these areas (and especially in our brigade's zone of

    16 responsibility) for the survival of the Croatian people

    17 in these areas and the equality of our people, which

    18 can only be achieved through the organisation of the

    19 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and establishment of

    20 a province of our people.

    21 "- The main battle is being fought against

    22 yesterday's allies, who have made the seizing of the

    23 living space of the Croats and the expulsion of our

    24 population from our homes part of their plans.

    25 "- In all the battles so far, each person

  49. 1 had their individual place and role, but Mr. Mate

    2 Kunkic has traced a special place for himself,

    3 initially through the work in the field against the

    4 Serbo-Chetnik aggressor from the Kuprek area and

    5 recently in the struggle against Muslim forces, which

    6 are far more numerous in our territory (in the latest

    7 confrontation there were four times more). In the last

    8 two confrontations (from 23 November 1992 and from 11

    9 January 1993) until now, when the fourth and decisive

    10 confrontation is imminent, Mate Kunkic has been

    11 entrusted with the command of the defence of the town

    12 and placed at the disposal of other units, and he

    13 performed these duties very successfully. Our plans

    14 for the future are such that a change would give rise

    15 to many new problems, where so far everything has been

    16 flowing according to an established schedule of

    17 control, command, responsibility, etc. There is no

    18 need to say that, since last April, in these areas, he

    19 and his Alfa Forse unit have considerably assisted in

    20 the organisation of our headquarters and later the

    21 brigade.

    22 "- Given the above, it is evident why we ask

    23 you to leave Mr. Mate Kunkic at our disposal.

    24 Believing that you will comply with our request, we

    25 thank you and, with the limits of our abilities, we

  50. 1 will know how to value your contribution to our

    2 impending victory."

    3 Signed Zrinko Tokic, Commander of the

    4 Dr. Ante Starcevic Brigade in Gornji Vakuf.

    5 So here we have, General, an officer that

    6 continued to be an officer in the 2nd Brigade of the

    7 Croatian army who has been operating in Gornji Vakuf

    8 and in the town of Gornji Vakuf for some significant

    9 period of time; isn't that right?

    10 A. I don't know. If you show me a document,

    11 then I can see from the document. I said that I did

    12 not have information of that kind at the time, nor do I

    13 have it now. I don't know about the 2nd Brigade. And

    14 it was this officer from this document. I can see a

    15 request is being made to the 2nd Brigade that he

    16 remains. That is clear from the document.

    17 I'd just like to ask, with regard to the

    18 first part of your question before you read out the

    19 document, you said that Siljeg sent an order to my

    20 subordinates and to myself. Siljeg did not send me an

    21 order, neither did he send orders to my subordinates.

    22 I would like that to be clear because that is the

    23 interpretation that I got with regard to the first

    24 question that you put.

    25 Q. General, you were the deputy chief of staff

  51. 1 of the entire HVO. You ultimately became the chief of

    2 staff of the entire HVO. Is it your testimony that you

    3 knew nothing about deployment of HV officers to a town

    4 relatively close to your headquarters in Vitez? You

    5 knew nothing about any such deployments?

    6 MR. HAYMAN: When, Mr. President? Is it

    7 while the witness was the deputy chief of staff of the

    8 HVO? That's what referenced in the question.

    9 MR. KEHOE: That's exactly right. He became

    10 the chief of staff and the deputy chief of staff. The

    11 question is --

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Be very clear about this,

    13 please.

    14 MR. KEHOE:

    15 Q. Did you know at any time that HV officers

    16 fighting in Gornji Vakuf side by side with the HVO in

    17 conflict with the Muslims in 1992 and 1993? Did you --

    18 JUDGE JORDA: What period are you talking

    19 about? What period are you speaking about? Are you

    20 talking about knowledge that the witness would have had

    21 at what point?

    22 MR. KEHOE: Any time, Judge.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Because after the war he

    24 became -- all right. At any time. Very well.

    25 Please answer.

  52. 1 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, I have already

    2 answered that I had knowledge after all the events that

    3 occurred in 1994 and 1995 but not as to the details,

    4 which brigade it was and the details, which officer.

    5 Here we're talking about an officer from one of the

    6 brigades.

    7 They are events that took place in May 1993.

    8 In May 1993, I was in the Lasva pocket. Later on I

    9 heard about this, but this information was not the

    10 subject of my preoccupations. I heard about it later,

    11 but not about the details. I'm seeing this document

    12 for the first time. I have it in my hands for the

    13 first time here today. I did not talk to the author of

    14 the document about the document.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: All right. That's the answer.

    16 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President.

    17 Q. General, had you heard of Alpha Force?

    18 A. As to Alpha Force, the Alpha Force that I

    19 heard about, I heard about Alpha Force special purpose

    20 unit in Operative Zone of Northwest Herzegovina. I

    21 heard about that unit earlier on.

    22 Q. When did you hear about them?

    23 A. Well, I heard about the unit possibly at the

    24 end of 1992, or the beginning of 1993, or in 1993.

    25 That's when I heard about that unit.

  53. 1 Q. Did you learn at that time that Alpha Force

    2 was an HV unit?

    3 A. As far as I know today, Alpha Force was a

    4 special purpose unit of the HVO. I don't know that

    5 that unit was a unit of the Croatian army. I did not

    6 see any documents on that, neither was I ever given

    7 information of that kind.

    8 Q. General, let me just put --

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps we'll take a break. Do

    10 you have another question about this unit?

    11 MR. KEHOE: Just on this particular unit one

    12 document, and we can move on, Mr. President, just

    13 before the break. It's not a document we're going to

    14 question about --

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Please proceed.

    16 Thank you. Please proceed.

    17 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, this is being

    18 handed to you. This is a military information summary

    19 of the Cheshire Regiment from the 1st of February,

    20 1993. The operative paragraph is on the bottom of the

    21 first page.

    22 THE REGISTRAR: This is 602.

    23 MR. KEHOE: The operative paragraph, Your

    24 Honours, is the bottom paragraph which notes from

    25 Gornji Vakuf that: "B Company reported that a new group

  54. 1 of HVO soldiers were sighted in the Croatian part of

    2 town last night. The group referred to as Alpha Force,

    3 believed to be approximately 40 in number, were

    4 reported to be very well-equipped and motivated."

    5 That's the only item at this particular

    6 juncture, Mr. President, that we would ask to be read.

    7 Of course, this deals with the Gornji Vakuf area.

    8 For reference purposes and information,

    9 Judge, just as reading this, B Company -- it says

    10 "BCOY" in the document. B Company was the company

    11 from the Cheshire Regiment that was deployed to Gornji

    12 Vakuf.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We're going to take

    14 a 15-minute break now.

    15 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if I could ask --

    16 if I could possibly get through this area, I think if I

    17 could take a 10-minute break or shorter I think I could

    18 get through this one particular segment by 1.00. If I

    19 can take a shorter break than 15, I think that I can

    20 get through a segment of this cross.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Ten minutes.

    22 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

    23 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: We can now resume the hearing.

    25 Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

  55. 1 MR. KEHOE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

    2 If the witness can be given 406/55, Mr. Registrar.

    3 Q. General, you have seen this document before,

    4 and this is an order similar to the order issued by

    5 Colonel Siljeg, calling for a list of HV officers in

    6 your units and your commands; is that right?

    7 A. Colonel Siljeg did not ask for those in my

    8 units and commands. He asked for a list of Croatian

    9 army officers in his area, that is, the North-western

    10 Herzegovina. This order is an order signed by my

    11 associate, which is the same in content. It just

    12 confirms what I said, that the main staff issued orders

    13 to all the commands of the Operative Zones to check out

    14 this matter and to make a list.

    15 Q. Your testimony, General, has been that when

    16 you issued this order, there were no HV officers in the

    17 Central Bosnia Operative Zone; is that correct?

    18 A. That there were no Croatian army officers

    19 serving in the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia.

    20 Q. Now, General, you talked to us, during your

    21 direct-examination, about two meetings, one on the 28th

    22 of April, and one on the 29th of April, both of whom

    23 you have attended with Milivoj Petkovic and Miro

    24 Andric. Do you recall that testimony?

    25 A. Yes, I do.

  56. 1 Q. You described, in another portion of your

    2 testimony, Miro Andric as a deputy commander of the

    3 armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the number two

    4 in the joint command of the armed forces of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the Central Bosnia Operative

    6 Zone; is that right?

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Speak slowly because the

    8 question is a long one and the witness has to be able

    9 to assimilate the interpretation.

    10 Did you understand the beginning of the

    11 question, General Blaskic?

    12 A. Could I be asked question by question,

    13 because I have to wait for the interpretation, and I

    14 have the impression that the interpreters are having

    15 difficulties to.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: You're asking for me to

    17 arbitrate here because, of course, it is better to go

    18 question by question. On the other hand, if I've

    19 understood things correctly, the Prosecutor needs to

    20 explain all of this in order to ask his question. It's

    21 a little bit complicated. All right.

    22 Mr. Kehoe, please try to speak more slowly.

    23 MR. KEHOE:

    24 Q. Miro Andric represented the HVO with you and

    25 Petkovic at these meetings on the 28th of April and the

  57. 1 29th of April; isn't that correct?

    2 A. In what year?

    3 Q. 1993.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. What position did Miro Andric take in the

    6 joint command that was set up on the 21st of April,

    7 1993?

    8 A. In that joint command, HVO officer Miro

    9 Andric held the position of deputy commander of the

    10 armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the HVO. Miro

    11 Andric was an officer from the main staff of the HVO.

    12 I don't know, and I'm not quite sure whether at the

    13 time he was also deputy chief of staff of the HVO, but

    14 he could have been that.

    15 Q. Who else from the HVO was part of this joint

    16 command in addition to Andric?

    17 A. If you give me the order, I would be able to

    18 tell you exactly. I know that my representatives were

    19 Zivko Totic, Filip Filipovic. I don't know the others

    20 in the joint command of the armed forces of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina who joined on that day the joint

    22 command between the BH army and the HVO.

    23 Q. Well, from your testimony, General, at least

    24 Franjo Nakic -- excuse me. At least Zivko Totic, Filip

    25 Filipovic, and Miro Andric were part of this joint

  58. 1 command; is that right?

    2 A. It is right, only we have to make a

    3 distinction. There were two joint commands: one at

    4 the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the joint command of

    5 the armed forces, and the commanders were Petkovic and

    6 Halilovic. In that joint command, Miro Andric was

    7 Petkovic's deputy and members included Filip Filipovic

    8 and others. Then another level of the joint command

    9 was between the 3rd Corps and the Central Bosnia

    10 Operative Zone, and in that joint command, I was the

    11 commander as well as the commander of the 3rd Corps,

    12 and our deputies were Franjo Nakic, Dzemo Merdan, and

    13 others. So that there were two joint commands.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: You explained that very well

    15 before, and I thank you, on behalf of my colleagues,

    16 for having reclarified the situation.

    17 Can we move to another question now, please?

    18 MR. KEHOE: Can I turn to a document,

    19 Mr. President, and I would like to show the witness

    20 406/17?

    21 Q. General, this is a document that is dated the

    22 5th of June, 1993 -- excuse me, 1992, I apologise.

    23 Signed by the Minister of Defence of the Republic of

    24 Croatia, and it is sent to the attention of the 101st

    25 "R" Brigade and notes:

  59. 1 "Pursuant to Article 4, Section 2 of the

    2 Decree on the Structure and Strength of the National

    3 Guard of the President of the Republic of Croatia, I

    4 order:

    5 "that the following be sent to the South

    6 Front on a temporary basis ..."

    7 And the first name on that list is Colonel

    8 Miro Andric. We won't read the rest. And it notes

    9 that the 101st Brigade will provide equipment and

    10 facilities, and there is no need to read all that

    11 equipment. And in the last paragraph -- excuse me, the

    12 last two paragraphs, it says:

    13 "The above-listed members of the Croatian

    14 Army shall continue to enjoy all the rights that have

    15 so far pertained to them.

    16 "The above-mentioned members of the Croatian

    17 Army are to report to the Chief of Staff, General Janko

    18 Bobetko, in the South Front Command - Ploca."

    19 Signed by Gojko Susak.

    20 Now let us look at another document, General,

    21 and this is a new document, Mr. President.

    22 I want you to keep that document with you,

    23 please. Excuse me, Mr. Usher. Excuse me, Mr. Usher.

    24 If the General could keep that document?

    25 THE REGISTRAR: This is 603 and 603A for the

  60. 1 English version.

    2 MR. KEHOE:

    3 Q. General, this is a document that is executed

    4 some three days after the previous exhibit. Again, it

    5 is on HV stationery for the Croatian army, the date is

    6 8 June 1992, and it is signed on behalf of Colonel Jozo

    7 Petrasevic. It says:

    8 "Pursuant to Point IV, paragraph 2, of the

    9 Decision of the President of the Republic of Croatia on

    10 the Organisation and Number of Members of the National

    11 Guard Corps, and to the Order of 5 June 1992," the

    12 number for the previous document, "I hereby issue the

    13 following order:

    14 "The following men are temporarily assigned

    15 to carry out tasks on the southern front, and are

    16 hereby sent to the southern front."

    17 The first name, Miro Andric, and the same

    18 list of individuals, or basically the same list of

    19 individuals, plus one, that we discussed in the prior

    20 exhibit.

    21 Again, in this order from Mr. Petrasevic:

    22 "The above-named members of the Croatian

    23 Army shall retain all the rights which they have

    24 enjoyed and acquired so far. The above-named members

    25 of the Croatian Army shall report to General Janko

  61. 1 Bobetko in the Command of the Southern Sector - Ploca."

    2 General, do you know this individual, this

    3 Colonel Jozo Petrasevic?

    4 A. It says on the document "Jozo Petrasevic" and

    5 not "Petrecevic" , but in any case, I do not

    6 know Colonel Jozo Petrasevic nor have I ever heard of a

    7 colonel by that name.

    8 Q. Do you recognise that stamp?

    9 A. I do recognise the stamp. It is the stamp of

    10 the military post number -- I can't see the number.

    11 MR. KEHOE: Let's turn to the next document,

    12 406/48.

    13 If I can, Mr. Usher, when I discuss this

    14 document, after, if we can have 603 available to the

    15 General?

    16 Q. 406/48 is a document that is executed on HVO

    17 letterhead dated 16 March 1993, directed to army

    18 headquarters of -- excuse me, from Army Headquarters of

    19 the Croatian Defence Council, and it is directed to the

    20 101st "R" Brigade of the Croatian Army, the personnel

    21 department.

    22 "At the personal request of Mr. Ivan

    23 Zlatanic, Head of the Technical Services of the 2nd

    24 Brigade OZ JIH of the Croatian Community of

    25 Herceg-Bosna, who was transferred to the Southern

  62. 1 Battlefield, by order no. ... dated 5 June 1992, of the

    2 Republic of Croatia, I hereby agree:

    3 "that Mr. Ivan Zlatic, member of the 101st

    4 Brigade 'R' of the Croatian Army can return to his

    5 original unit.

    6 "Mr. Zlatic fulfilled his tasks on the

    7 Southern battlefield from (date illegible) until 15

    8 March 1993 and must resolve all pertaining rights and

    9 obligations with the 101st 'R' Brigade of the Croatian

    10 Army, and has thus to report to the commander of the

    11 101st 'R' Brigade, Colonel Jozo Petrasevic.

    12 "I want to note that Mr. Zlatic fulfilled

    13 his duties conscientiously and very well, and I, as his

    14 superior, am awarding him with 7 (seven) days of leave

    15 so that he can resolve all his obligations concerning

    16 his position in the 101st Brigade."

    17 Signed Deputy Head of Army Command, Croatian

    18 Community of Herceg-Bosna HVO, Miro Andric.

    19 Now, General, this is the same Miro Andric

    20 that is operating in the joint command and is

    21 participating in meetings with you on the 28th and 29th

    22 of April, 1993; isn't that so?

    23 A. In this document that I also see for the

    24 first time as the previous two, it is said here that

    25 Miro Andric is deputy chief of staff of the main staff

  63. 1 of the HVO, and that is the Miro Andric who attended

    2 the meeting on the 28th and 29th of April, 1993, and

    3 who was a member of the command of the armed forces of

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    5 As I saw the previous two documents for the

    6 first time too, it is possible, and I assume that it is

    7 the same Miro Andric, but I never spoke to him about

    8 these two documents as I had never seen them before

    9 anyway, and they apply to the period of 1992.

    10 Q. Now, in document 4 -- in document 406/48,

    11 which, in fact, is dated 16 March, 1993, it discusses a

    12 Mr. Ivan Zlatanic. Now, that is the same name that is

    13 on 603, the same Ivan -- or appears to be the same name

    14 without an "N," excuse me. Does that appear to be the

    15 same man?

    16 A. It could be, yes. Under number 4, it says

    17 Ivan Zlatic, and here too it's Ivan Zlatic.

    18 Q. So reading these two documents together, we

    19 have these soldiers from the 101st "R" Brigade deployed

    20 to, at least one, deployed to Bosnia-Herzegovina from

    21 at least June of 1992 to the 16th of March of 1993; is

    22 that right?

    23 A. I don't know whether it is right because,

    24 according to document 603, this group is being sent to

    25 the southern front to report to the commander of the

  64. 1 southern front, General Janko Bobetko, and where

    2 General Janko Bobetko will send them to when they

    3 reported to him, I don't know, and from this document,

    4 406/48, it can be seen that they were included in the

    5 Operative Zone of the Southeastern Herzegovina of the

    6 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    7 Q. Well, were any of them sent to the Central

    8 Bosnian Operative Zone?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Let me show you another document.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: This is 604 and 604A for the

    12 English version.

    13 MR. KEHOE:

    14 Q. General, let us read this document. Upper

    15 left-hand corner: "HVO main staff. Colonel Miro

    16 Andric. Vitez. 3 May, 1993."

    17 It is directed to the 101st Croatian Army

    18 Brigade with a fax number, with a report: "The below

    19 mentioned servicemen of the 101st HV Brigade who are at

    20 the southern front of the Croatian Community of

    21 Herceg-Bosna pursuant to an order of the Republic of

    22 Croatia Ministry of Defence are performing the same

    23 duties as they performed in March."

    24 The names:

    25 "1. Colonel Miro Andric.

  65. 1 2. Blaz Andric.

    2 3. Mirsad Sivac.

    3 4. Branko Kozul.

    4 5. Major Goran Vujic.

    5 The servicemen were on duty for 30 days in

    6 April. Colonel Miro Andric."

    7 It is stamped with the Central Bosnia

    8 Operative Zone stamp from Travnik. Is that your stamp,

    9 General?

    10 A. The stamp is, but since the formation of the

    11 joint command of the armed forces of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Colonel Miro Andric and his

    13 associates stayed in Zenica or Vitez and the joint

    14 command did not have its own stamp. I believe that he

    15 occasionally did the stamp of the command of the

    16 Central Bosnia Operative Zone, but he was stationed as

    17 a representative of the joint command of the armed

    18 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The agreement was they

    19 should be stationed for a period in Zenica and then for

    20 a period in Mostar.

    21 Q. Well, General, let us look at these names

    22 that are in 604 and compare them to the list of 603.

    23 I ask you to look at the names in 603, 9, 10,

    24 and 11. Mirsad Sicvic, Blaz Andric, and Branko Kozul.

    25 In addition to Miro Andric, these members of the

  66. 1 Croatian army are the same men that are mentioned in

    2 both documents; isn't that right?

    3 A. Yes, clearly. These were the drivers of the

    4 Colonel and the deputy commander of the armed forces of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Branko Kozul is a private, Blaz

    6 Andric has a driver and that was his escort. This

    7 escort was captured by the 7th Muslim Brigade at Ravno

    8 Rostovo, where it is travelling officially towards

    9 Bugojno. I repeat, these are commanders of the joint

    10 command of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina appointed on

    11 the basis of a joint agreement, and that meeting was

    12 chaired by Mr. Thebault. I am not sure that

    13 General Morillon was there. They are not officers of

    14 the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia, the Operative

    15 Zone of which I was the commander. Never was any one

    16 of them an officer in the command of the Central Bosnia

    17 Operative Zone.

    18 Q. Is it clear to you, General, after reviewing

    19 these documents that there were, in fact, soldiers and

    20 officers from the Croatian army operating and working

    21 in the HVO?

    22 A. In the HVO in Southeastern Herzegovina and

    23 not Western Herzegovina, it is clear to me, but I still

    24 stick to what I said and assert that there were never

    25 officers from the Croatian army operating in the

  67. 1 Central Bosnia Operative Zone, neither officers nor

    2 soldiers.

    3 Q. Well, when Miro Andric was operating in

    4 Central Bosnia and attending meetings with you, was he

    5 wearing an HVO insignia or an HV insignia?

    6 A. I met Miro Andric regarding the duty he

    7 performed, deputy chief of staff of the HVO. We met

    8 for the first time at a meeting in Zenica on the 28th

    9 of April, 1993, when the joint command of the armed

    10 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina was formed. At that time

    11 he wore HVO insignia.

    12 Q. Well, General, when did you first learn that

    13 Miro Andric was a member of the Croatian army?

    14 A. When he was a member of the Croatian army,

    15 would you tell me?

    16 Q. No, General, my question is this: When did

    17 you first learn that Miro Andric was an officer in the

    18 Croatian army this entire time?

    19 A. That Miro Andric, prior to taking the

    20 position of deputy chief of staff of the HVO was a

    21 member of the Croatian army, it is something that I

    22 learned today, but I learned before this that after

    23 serving in the HVO he went to the HV, but until today I

    24 believed that he had started his military career in the

    25 HVO.

  68. 1 Q. Where did Miro Andric go after he left the

    2 HVO?

    3 A. After he left the HVO, he went to the Defence

    4 Ministry. I don't know whether that was his first

    5 assignment but, in any event, he went to the Croatian

    6 army.

    7 Towards the end of 1995, in December, I knew

    8 that he was working as an officer in the Defence

    9 Ministry of the Republic of Croatia. This same Miro

    10 Andric, who on the 28th of April, 1993, that I saw for

    11 the first time in Zenica.

    12 Q. Did it strike you, General, that when you saw

    13 and found out that Miro Andric was back in Zagreb

    14 working for the Ministry of Defence and was part of the

    15 Croatian army, that he was, in fact, a Croatian army

    16 officer in Central Bosnia in April of 1993?

    17 A. He was not an officer of the Croatian army in

    18 Central Bosnia in April 1993. He was an officer from

    19 the main staff of the HVO and in the joint command of

    20 the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, according to

    21 what I knew then.

    22 Today, I see from this document that for a

    23 time he was a member of the Croatian army before he

    24 joined the HVO.

    25 Q. Well, General, looking at 604, looking at

  69. 1 document 604, the order written in Vitez, where your

    2 headquarters was, on the 3rd of May, 1993, it indicates

    3 that these servicemen were and continue to be a part of

    4 the Croatian army; doesn't it?

    5 A. This is not an order, it is just a note, a

    6 memorandum. I see this information today, that they

    7 spent 30 days on duty, and the document was signed by

    8 Miro Andric as deputy chief of staff of the main staff,

    9 and I have already said that I didn't know that he had

    10 been a member of the Croatian army before.

    11 Q. Does this report indicate to you, General,

    12 that these soldiers, at the time this report was

    13 written on the 3rd of May, 1993, were still members of

    14 the Croatian army?

    15 A. From this report, one could conclude that

    16 they were members of the Croatian army, but I have

    17 already said that the joint command used the stamp and

    18 the joint command was based in Zenica and Travnik, so

    19 that I did not stay in the joint command. They wrote

    20 out the documents. What was addressed to me was sent

    21 to me and the others were sent to other people, where

    22 they wanted to send them.

    23 Q. Thank you, General. You've been very helpful

    24 on this point.

    25 MR. KEHOE: If I might consult with my

  70. 1 colleagues for one moment, I think that it might --

    2 Mr. President, I realise I've run over 1.00.

    3 We are going to move into another area. Given the fact

    4 that it's lunchtime, I --

    5 A. If I may be allowed, Mr. President, may I

    6 just add regarding document 604 that the heading

    7 is, "The main staff of the HVO," and the town of Vitez,

    8 and not the command of the Operative Zone of Central

    9 Bosnia, as far as this document is concerned.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: All right. That's been

    11 indicated. Let me remind you that ordinarily this

    12 afternoon we would be having an ex parte hearing.

    13 Therefore, I don't really know -- Mr. Kehoe, you're not

    14 going to be conducting your cross-examination this

    15 afternoon; is that correct?

    16 MR. KEHOE: No, Mr. President. I think that

    17 my colleague, Mr. Harmon, has the matter that's before

    18 the Court.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Did you want to

    20 speak about it right away, Mr. Harmon?

    21 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President and Your

    22 Honours, not at all. I'll be in Court at the Court's

    23 request this afternoon.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We've run overtime

    25 a little bit. I know that the interpreters have to

  71. 1 rest up. We won't be in before quarter to three.

    2 Let's say quarter to three.

    3 Mr. Registrar, tell anybody who should be

    4 told.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: All right. This hearing will

    7 resume at 9.00 tomorrow.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct.

    9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    10 at 1.08 p.m., to be reconvened on

    11 Friday, the 16th day of April, 1999

    12 at 9.00 a.m.














Page 20608