1 Monday, 3rd May, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 4.14 p.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. First of
5 all, would I like to say good afternoon to the
6 interpreters, to the court reporters, and, of course, I
7 would like to see the witness be brought in.
8 (The accused/witness entered court)
9 JUDGE JORDA: Hello to Defence counsel.
10 Hello to the members of the Prosecution Prosecutor's
12 Good afternoon, General Blaskic.
13 General Blaskic, it seems you're more easy to transfer
14 as an accused than as a witness.
15 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Mr. President.
16 I feel so as well.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar, exactly what
18 happened? It's the third time we've found ourselves in
19 that kind of situation just when time is running late.
20 I mean, we don't have much time to lose in that kind of
21 situation. What happened?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Well, Your Honour, this was
23 due to a very exceptional circumstances. The transport
24 services had a lot to do and that's why we're so late
25 starting. Of course, we'll make sure this never
1 happens again.
2 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Obviously, we don't want
3 this to happen again. I hope next time everything will
4 be done to ensure that we don't lose so much time.
5 We'll try to see that the transfer of the accused does
6 not take too much time, and I do hope you will convey
7 my message to Mrs. de Sampayo and to the relevant
8 authorities of the host country. You know that the
9 officials of the host country are always ready to help
10 us, but it's the third time that we found ourselves in
11 this very critical situation.
12 All right. That will be all. The
13 cross-examination can resume.
14 MR. KEHOE: Good afternoon, Mr. President and
15 Your Honours. Mr. President, as you can see, our
16 assistant in the courtroom thought we were off for the
17 day due to the gap, and he is gone with much of our --
18 JUDGE JORDA: Oh. I thought the police was
19 in charge of getting that.
20 MR. KEHOE: Well, in any event, Judge, I just
21 want to get an idea of how late Your Honour was going
22 to go today so I can plan accordingly with my
23 colleague, Mr. Harmon.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Well, I thought we might well
25 might go until quarter to six. Just a minute. Let me
1 talk to Judge Shahabuddeen about this.
2 Well, with the agreement of the interpreters,
3 of course, we think we could work until 6.00 and, of
4 course, we will take a break around 5.00. I know that
5 the interpreters have not been working since 2.00, but
6 they have been in the booth since 2.00. So we'll work
7 till 6.00 with a break at around 5.00. Is that
8 agreeable to you, Mr. Kehoe?
9 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. I just
10 wanted a little guidance. Thank you.
11 WITNESS: TIHOMIR BLASKIC (Resumed)
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe:
13 Q. Good afternoon, General.
14 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.
15 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President and Your Honours, I
16 would like begin with just offering a series of
17 documents for the Court's review. It deals with the
18 question, Mr. President and Your Honours, that we were
19 dealing with when we met last time, specifically issues
20 concerning Miro Andric.
21 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit 605.
22 MR. KEHOE: We're just going to offer them,
23 Mr. President, and we'll move to the next as well. The
24 first one is 605, Mr. President, and that particular
25 document is a BBC, British Broadcasting Corporation,
1 summary of an article taken from the Yugoslav Telegraph
2 Service on the 24th of March of 1995. The bottom part
3 of that article highlights Colonel Miro Andric, the
4 head of the Croatian Defence Ministry's office for
5 military envoys and protocol. Of course, talking about
6 the Defence Ministry in the Republic of Croatia, this
7 being the individual who was operating in Central
8 Bosnia in May of 1993.
9 If I might hand the next article to the
11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 606.
12 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, Prosecution
13 Exhibit 606 is, again, a British Broadcasting
14 Corporation summary from the former Yugoslavia and it
15 is the headline dealing with: "Croatian military
16 believes Yugoslavia not interested in keeping Krajina,"
17 and it's the sources from Croatian Radio, 29 March,
18 1995, and about half way down it discusses the role of
19 now Brigadier Miro Andric. It notes that: "The
20 briefing was held in the Defence Ministry of the
21 Republic of Croatia. The head of the office, Brigadier
22 Miro Andric, welcomed military attaches in his
23 introductory speech."
24 The last newspaper article in this review, if
25 I may, Mr. Usher?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 607.
2 MR. KEHOE: This is again a British
3 Broadcasting Corporation summary taken from Croatian
4 Radio, 16 May, 1997, and it deals with: "On the
5 occasion of Security Services Day, President of the
6 Republic of Croatia Franjo Tudjman, received a
7 delegation from the services of the national security
8 and intelligence community of the Republic of Croatia,"
9 and on the second page it notes that the "head of the
10 office for military attaches and protocol of the
11 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia Gen Miro
13 Moving ahead, Mr. Usher, if we could show the
14 accused Defence Exhibit 335?
15 Q. Now, Defence Exhibit 335, General, is a
16 document that you yourself noted during your
17 examination with Mr. Nobilo that you wrote, and if I
18 may, on the front page of the document that you wrote,
19 you refer to an individual by the name of Ivica Lucic,
20 L-U-C-I-C. Do you see that, General?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. He being the chief of SIS; is that right?
23 A. He was the head of the administration of SIS.
24 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Mr. President and Your
25 Honours, just a housekeeping chore? If Your Honours
1 note, in the B/C/S version of this document, 335, the
2 name Lucic is spelled L-U-C-I-C with the appropriate
3 pronunciation on top, and it has been misspelled on
4 both the English version and on the French version as
5 L-U-S-I-C. So if I can ask the registrar with the
6 appropriate annotations that the correct --
7 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, L-U-S-I-C is what appears
8 on the French version.
9 MR. KEHOE: And I think, Mr. President, if we
10 look at the B/C/S version, it should be L-U-C-I-C. So
11 if the French version, 335A, and the English version,
12 335B, could be corrected to reflect that change, we
13 would appreciate it.
14 Q. Now, General, who is this fellow, Ivica
16 A. He was head of the administration of the
17 security service at that time.
18 Q. Now, sir, was he a member of the HV?
19 A. As far as I know, he was not a member of the
20 Croatian army. I underline "as far as I know." He was
21 head of the security service of the HVO attached to the
22 Department of Defence which was later the Ministry of
24 Q. Well, where is he now; do you know?
25 A. I don't know where he now is nor what his
1 position is. I have not had any contact with him. I
2 have been in prison here for more than three years now.
3 Q. Well, prior to you being in prison, was he
4 back working for the Ministry of Defence in the
5 Republic of Croatia?
6 A. I do not know. I know that his position was
7 head of the security service, and how that institution
8 was organised and what his particular role was in that
9 service, I don't know.
10 Q. Well, in document -- excuse me -- in document
11 607, the document that newspaper article on the 16th of
12 May of 1997, it reflects, as part of the intelligence
13 service, there was an aide to the director for crisis
14 situation, Ivica Lucic, who was working as part of the
15 Ministry of Defence.
16 Is that the same individual, the same Ivica
17 Lucic, that you mention in Defence Exhibit 335?
18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, where do you find
19 Ivica Lucic's name in document 607, please? We are
20 talking about Andric, first of all.
21 MR. KEHOE: I understand. It is the second
22 page, three lines from the bottom.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. I see. Thank you.
24 Please continue.
25 MR. KEHOE:
1 Q. Now, to your knowledge, General, is this the
2 Ivica Lucic who is the aide to the director for crisis
3 situation? Is that the same Ivica Lucic who was the
4 person that you noted was at this meeting and is listed
5 in Defence Exhibit 335?
6 A. Your Honours, this document, as far as I can
7 see, is dated '97, in English. I haven't been able to
8 find that paragraph. Even if I had, I do not
9 understand it. So I don't know whether that is the
10 same man because in '97, I was here. I do know the man
11 and I can identify the Ivica Lucic that I know.
12 MR. KEHOE: If we can go into private session
13 and talk about a document under seal?
14 JUDGE JORDA: All right. It is always a bit
15 difficult for us to understand why we go into private
16 session, but let's do it once again. It seems that the
17 Prosecution and the Defence agree to this.
18 MR. KEHOE: We're going to be talking about a
19 document that is under seal, and I think counsel will
20 agree that this is a document that we have continuously
21 gone into private session when we discuss.
22 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Let us go into
23 private session then.
24 (Private session)
13 redacted pages 20808 – 20839 private session
1 (Open session)
2 THE REGISTRAR: In order to give this
3 document a number, I have to know if there are two
4 parts to this document. One is in B/C/S and after that
5 there is a part in English and then after that a part
6 in B/C/S again.
7 MR. KEHOE: Every document is in B/C/S,
8 English, and French, every document that is set forth
9 here. We just handed it in as one particular exhibit.
10 It is the file on this particular individual who was
12 I think, Mr. President, we can give it just
13 one exhibit number, Exhibit 609.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, but I have here a B/C/S
15 version, an English version, a French version -- I'm
16 not sure what I have before me. Generally, we give,
17 you know, a number, then "A" for French and "B" for
18 English, but this single document has B/C/S, English,
19 and French, and I think these versions appear twice in
20 the document.
21 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I can break them
22 all up, if need be. It's no problem.
23 JUDGE JORDA: I think the document should be
24 subdivided in two or three documents. Is that
25 agreeable to you, Mr. Kehoe?
1 MR. KEHOE: That is no problem. I will just
2 collect them and just do them again in the morning. I
3 will offer them again in the morning after they're
5 JUDGE JORDA: Very well then. You can do
6 that in agreement with the registrar. I think we are
7 going to suspend the hearing, and we will resume
8 tomorrow morning at 10.00; is that right?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, 10.00. And the witness
10 I trust will be there.
11 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is suspended until
13 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
14 5.59 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
15 the 4th day of May, 1999, at 10.00 a.m.