1. 1 Monday, 3rd May, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 4.14 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. First of

    5 all, would I like to say good afternoon to the

    6 interpreters, to the court reporters, and, of course, I

    7 would like to see the witness be brought in.

    8 (The accused/witness entered court)

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Hello to Defence counsel.

    10 Hello to the members of the Prosecution Prosecutor's

    11 office.

    12 Good afternoon, General Blaskic.

    13 General Blaskic, it seems you're more easy to transfer

    14 as an accused than as a witness.

    15 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Mr. President.

    16 I feel so as well.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar, exactly what

    18 happened? It's the third time we've found ourselves in

    19 that kind of situation just when time is running late.

    20 I mean, we don't have much time to lose in that kind of

    21 situation. What happened?

    22 THE REGISTRAR: Well, Your Honour, this was

    23 due to a very exceptional circumstances. The transport

    24 services had a lot to do and that's why we're so late

    25 starting. Of course, we'll make sure this never

  2. 1 happens again.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Obviously, we don't want

    3 this to happen again. I hope next time everything will

    4 be done to ensure that we don't lose so much time.

    5 We'll try to see that the transfer of the accused does

    6 not take too much time, and I do hope you will convey

    7 my message to Mrs. de Sampayo and to the relevant

    8 authorities of the host country. You know that the

    9 officials of the host country are always ready to help

    10 us, but it's the third time that we found ourselves in

    11 this very critical situation.

    12 All right. That will be all. The

    13 cross-examination can resume.

    14 MR. KEHOE: Good afternoon, Mr. President and

    15 Your Honours. Mr. President, as you can see, our

    16 assistant in the courtroom thought we were off for the

    17 day due to the gap, and he is gone with much of our --

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Oh. I thought the police was

    19 in charge of getting that.

    20 MR. KEHOE: Well, in any event, Judge, I just

    21 want to get an idea of how late Your Honour was going

    22 to go today so I can plan accordingly with my

    23 colleague, Mr. Harmon.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Well, I thought we might well

    25 might go until quarter to six. Just a minute. Let me

  3. 1 talk to Judge Shahabuddeen about this.

    2 Well, with the agreement of the interpreters,

    3 of course, we think we could work until 6.00 and, of

    4 course, we will take a break around 5.00. I know that

    5 the interpreters have not been working since 2.00, but

    6 they have been in the booth since 2.00. So we'll work

    7 till 6.00 with a break at around 5.00. Is that

    8 agreeable to you, Mr. Kehoe?

    9 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. I just

    10 wanted a little guidance. Thank you.


    12 Cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe:

    13 Q. Good afternoon, General.

    14 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.

    15 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President and Your Honours, I

    16 would like begin with just offering a series of

    17 documents for the Court's review. It deals with the

    18 question, Mr. President and Your Honours, that we were

    19 dealing with when we met last time, specifically issues

    20 concerning Miro Andric.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit 605.

    22 MR. KEHOE: We're just going to offer them,

    23 Mr. President, and we'll move to the next as well. The

    24 first one is 605, Mr. President, and that particular

    25 document is a BBC, British Broadcasting Corporation,

  4. 1 summary of an article taken from the Yugoslav Telegraph

    2 Service on the 24th of March of 1995. The bottom part

    3 of that article highlights Colonel Miro Andric, the

    4 head of the Croatian Defence Ministry's office for

    5 military envoys and protocol. Of course, talking about

    6 the Defence Ministry in the Republic of Croatia, this

    7 being the individual who was operating in Central

    8 Bosnia in May of 1993.

    9 If I might hand the next article to the

    10 usher.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 606.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, Prosecution

    13 Exhibit 606 is, again, a British Broadcasting

    14 Corporation summary from the former Yugoslavia and it

    15 is the headline dealing with: "Croatian military

    16 believes Yugoslavia not interested in keeping Krajina,"

    17 and it's the sources from Croatian Radio, 29 March,

    18 1995, and about half way down it discusses the role of

    19 now Brigadier Miro Andric. It notes that: "The

    20 briefing was held in the Defence Ministry of the

    21 Republic of Croatia. The head of the office, Brigadier

    22 Miro Andric, welcomed military attaches in his

    23 introductory speech."

    24 The last newspaper article in this review, if

    25 I may, Mr. Usher?

  5. 1 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 607.

    2 MR. KEHOE: This is again a British

    3 Broadcasting Corporation summary taken from Croatian

    4 Radio, 16 May, 1997, and it deals with: "On the

    5 occasion of Security Services Day, President of the

    6 Republic of Croatia Franjo Tudjman, received a

    7 delegation from the services of the national security

    8 and intelligence community of the Republic of Croatia,"

    9 and on the second page it notes that the "head of the

    10 office for military attaches and protocol of the

    11 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia Gen Miro

    12 Andric."

    13 Moving ahead, Mr. Usher, if we could show the

    14 accused Defence Exhibit 335?

    15 Q. Now, Defence Exhibit 335, General, is a

    16 document that you yourself noted during your

    17 examination with Mr. Nobilo that you wrote, and if I

    18 may, on the front page of the document that you wrote,

    19 you refer to an individual by the name of Ivica Lucic,

    20 L-U-C-I-C. Do you see that, General?

    21 A. Yes, I do.

    22 Q. He being the chief of SIS; is that right?

    23 A. He was the head of the administration of SIS.

    24 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Mr. President and Your

    25 Honours, just a housekeeping chore? If Your Honours

  6. 1 note, in the B/C/S version of this document, 335, the

    2 name Lucic is spelled L-U-C-I-C with the appropriate

    3 pronunciation on top, and it has been misspelled on

    4 both the English version and on the French version as

    5 L-U-S-I-C. So if I can ask the registrar with the

    6 appropriate annotations that the correct --

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, L-U-S-I-C is what appears

    8 on the French version.

    9 MR. KEHOE: And I think, Mr. President, if we

    10 look at the B/C/S version, it should be L-U-C-I-C. So

    11 if the French version, 335A, and the English version,

    12 335B, could be corrected to reflect that change, we

    13 would appreciate it.

    14 Q. Now, General, who is this fellow, Ivica

    15 Lucic?

    16 A. He was head of the administration of the

    17 security service at that time.

    18 Q. Now, sir, was he a member of the HV?

    19 A. As far as I know, he was not a member of the

    20 Croatian army. I underline "as far as I know." He was

    21 head of the security service of the HVO attached to the

    22 Department of Defence which was later the Ministry of

    23 Defence.

    24 Q. Well, where is he now; do you know?

    25 A. I don't know where he now is nor what his

  7. 1 position is. I have not had any contact with him. I

    2 have been in prison here for more than three years now.

    3 Q. Well, prior to you being in prison, was he

    4 back working for the Ministry of Defence in the

    5 Republic of Croatia?

    6 A. I do not know. I know that his position was

    7 head of the security service, and how that institution

    8 was organised and what his particular role was in that

    9 service, I don't know.

    10 Q. Well, in document -- excuse me -- in document

    11 607, the document that newspaper article on the 16th of

    12 May of 1997, it reflects, as part of the intelligence

    13 service, there was an aide to the director for crisis

    14 situation, Ivica Lucic, who was working as part of the

    15 Ministry of Defence.

    16 Is that the same individual, the same Ivica

    17 Lucic, that you mention in Defence Exhibit 335?

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, where do you find

    19 Ivica Lucic's name in document 607, please? We are

    20 talking about Andric, first of all.

    21 MR. KEHOE: I understand. It is the second

    22 page, three lines from the bottom.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. I see. Thank you.

    24 Please continue.

    25 MR. KEHOE:

  8. 1 Q. Now, to your knowledge, General, is this the

    2 Ivica Lucic who is the aide to the director for crisis

    3 situation? Is that the same Ivica Lucic who was the

    4 person that you noted was at this meeting and is listed

    5 in Defence Exhibit 335?

    6 A. Your Honours, this document, as far as I can

    7 see, is dated '97, in English. I haven't been able to

    8 find that paragraph. Even if I had, I do not

    9 understand it. So I don't know whether that is the

    10 same man because in '97, I was here. I do know the man

    11 and I can identify the Ivica Lucic that I know.

    12 MR. KEHOE: If we can go into private session

    13 and talk about a document under seal?

    14 JUDGE JORDA: All right. It is always a bit

    15 difficult for us to understand why we go into private

    16 session, but let's do it once again. It seems that the

    17 Prosecution and the Defence agree to this.

    18 MR. KEHOE: We're going to be talking about a

    19 document that is under seal, and I think counsel will

    20 agree that this is a document that we have continuously

    21 gone into private session when we discuss.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Let us go into

    23 private session then.

    24 (Private session)

    25 (redacted)

  9. 1












    13 redacted pages 20808 20839 private session













  1. 1 (Open session)

    2 THE REGISTRAR: In order to give this

    3 document a number, I have to know if there are two

    4 parts to this document. One is in B/C/S and after that

    5 there is a part in English and then after that a part

    6 in B/C/S again.

    7 MR. KEHOE: Every document is in B/C/S,

    8 English, and French, every document that is set forth

    9 here. We just handed it in as one particular exhibit.

    10 It is the file on this particular individual who was

    11 killed.

    12 I think, Mr. President, we can give it just

    13 one exhibit number, Exhibit 609.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, but I have here a B/C/S

    15 version, an English version, a French version -- I'm

    16 not sure what I have before me. Generally, we give,

    17 you know, a number, then "A" for French and "B" for

    18 English, but this single document has B/C/S, English,

    19 and French, and I think these versions appear twice in

    20 the document.

    21 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I can break them

    22 all up, if need be. It's no problem.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: I think the document should be

    24 subdivided in two or three documents. Is that

    25 agreeable to you, Mr. Kehoe?

  2. 1 MR. KEHOE: That is no problem. I will just

    2 collect them and just do them again in the morning. I

    3 will offer them again in the morning after they're

    4 subdivided.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Very well then. You can do

    6 that in agreement with the registrar. I think we are

    7 going to suspend the hearing, and we will resume

    8 tomorrow morning at 10.00; is that right?

    9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, 10.00. And the witness

    10 I trust will be there.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is suspended until

    12 tomorrow.

    13 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    14 5.59 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

    15 the 4th day of May, 1999, at 10.00 a.m.