1 Wednesday, 9 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
9 May we briefly go into private session so that I can discuss a
10 matter of witness scheduling with the Trial Chamber, please?
11 JUDGE PARKER: Would it be convenient to wait until this witness
12 has finished his evidence, do you think?
13 MR. SAXON: That would be fine, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Good. Yes.
15 Good afternoon to you, sir. The affirmation you made at the
16 beginning of your evidence still applies, and I think Ms. Residovic still
17 has some questions to go.
18 Could I point out, Ms. Residovic, that one of the photographs you
19 showed to the witness yesterday has not yet been made an exhibit. If you
20 want it as an exhibit, you should remember to tender it.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will
22 probably, once again, show the same photograph to the witness and then I
23 will tender it as evidence.
24 WITNESS: ELMAZ JUSUFI [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic [Continued]:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
3 Before the break, if you remember yesterday, we spoke about part
4 of your testimony in which you say and mention that you recognise, among
5 the persons in your yard, Dusan Kruskarov. You responded to that, that
6 is correct, that you recognised him by his voice?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This has been -- this has been stated in page 536 of the
9 transcript. Is it so?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. I would now ask you, Mr. Jusufi, are you aware that
12 Dusan Kruskarov is -- has been ill for quite a number of years, and then
13 that since 1981 he is not engaged in any of the reserve forces of the
14 police or of the army?
15 A. I know that he is not sick. I see him -- he's seen everyday
16 walking along the streets. I don't know that he's ill or sick. I know
17 that he's working at Kekenovski. I don't know that he's sick.
18 Q. I would like to show the witness document 1D 18, number 65 ter,
19 page 1D 0262, which presents -- which is a summary of the interview of
20 the suspect which was made by the investigator Matti Raatikainen,
21 where -- and I would like to point your attention to the fact that the
22 investigator states that Kruskarovski has never been a police reserve
23 officer; that he has been relieved from duty because of -- because of
24 cancer; that is he not capable to work; and that in point 3, the
25 investigator points that the credibility of Elmaz Jusufi in that sense
1 should be reexamined. In the conclusion of point 4D, which continues at
2 page 1D 0263 --
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would also ask to have that
4 page shown.
5 Q. -- the investigator believes that this witness has not been in
6 Ljuboten at the time of the events, and that is not true. He also states
7 that the physical situation -- the physical condition and the condition
8 of the illness of this person confirms this conclusion of the
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask to
11 show -- maybe we have not shown the second page. So paragraph 1 of the
12 second page --
13 JUDGE PARKER: I think it might be enough at this stage,
14 Ms. Residovic --
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Okay.
16 JUDGE PARKER: -- if you asked the witness whether he could make
17 any observation on those comments.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Jusufi, bearing in mind these comments, do you still stay
20 with the fact that -- Kruskarov is healthy and that he was a reservist?
21 A. I'm talking about things as they were five years ago. I don't
22 know what the situation is like today. I only heard his voice and judged
23 from his voice that it was him, and I heard him saying, "Put some petrol
24 over the car." This is what I heard. It was his voice. I didn't say
25 that I saw him -- I saw his face, but he is my neighbour and I know his
1 voice very well. That's why I said that it was him. I -- from the
2 voice, I can tell whoever of my neighbours he is, because we grew up
3 together. We live side by side. Whoever of them might be, I could
4 recognise him by the voice. That's all I have to say.
5 Q. If I would be able to conclude, Mr. Jusufi, everything that you
6 have heard and all the persons that you eventually mentioned were
7 recognised by the voice only, not because you saw those persons?
8 A. No, no. I didn't see them, because they were wearing masks. So
9 I couldn't ascertain exactly that they were them from the face, because I
10 didn't see the face. But from the voice, yes, because they were dressed
11 in military uniforms, the uniforms of reservists. Even before that day,
12 I think this happened. We used to see them every day.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you remember, Mr. Jusufi, that yesterday when you
14 were addressing the Court, which is written on a page of the transcript
15 529, line 8 and 9, that you have said that the door beside which your son
16 was hit, that then you precisely said that he --
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
18 Q. "The door touched the feet of my son because my son fell on the
19 stomach." Do you remember saying that yesterday?
20 A. Yes. I can tell you the same thing today.
21 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that after that, your son bleeded
23 A. [No interpretation].
24 Q. Is it also correct that he was wearing jeans at that time, the
25 jeans that he took on -- that he put on after waking up? Is it correct?
1 A. Yes. He was wearing pyjamas before when he was sleeping and in a
2 couple of seconds, he put on his jeans and went to the door, to close the
4 Q. Okay. Tell me, given that he was bleeding heavily, were all his
5 clothes bloody, also his pants, his trousers and his T-shirt?
6 A. When blood started to come out, he was lying on the floor and
7 then they turned him on his side. I saw him bleeding. The blood fell on
8 the carpet. It is true. There is nothing to comment on here.
9 Q. And his clothes were all bloody, not only the carpet; right?
10 A. We put some -- a piece of sheet on his wound. We, ourselves. I
11 mean, his mother. When he fell down and when the policemen came and
12 kicked the door open, they managed to open it.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. The clothes he was hit and the clothes that he
14 was bleeding in, nobody changed those clothes in your house, and that's
15 how he was transferred or taken to the house of your daughter-in-law --
16 of your daughter?
17 A. With the same clothes. Even when we buried him, we buried him in
18 the same clothes.
19 Q. He was also photographed in the same clothes by the local hoxha,
20 by the local priest?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would repeat -- I would again
23 ask that the witness is shown a photograph 65 ter 608, page 7, number
25 Q. You saw this photograph yesterday and you recognised it. Is it
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could we say that at these clothes, there is just a little bit
4 blood that has probably remained from the blanket he was lying on? There
5 is no visible blood on the other parts of the clothes. Is it so?
6 A. When he was lying down, the blood fell on the -- on the carpet,
7 and his mother was standing beside him and cleaning the blood. She tried
8 to tie up the wound, and all his blood came out. We do not dress up a
9 dead person. You should be certain that this is how it was. I saw him
10 with my own eyes.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Tell me, your wife at the very moment when
12 your son was in the corridor, she tried to stop the bleeding or did you
13 previously take him to the -- did you previously take him to the room?
14 A. First she tried to stop the bleeding, to clean the blood that
15 came out, and then when the blood stopped, she took him -- she took him
16 and put him on the couch. She kept cleaning his blood all the time,
17 hoping that the bleeding would stop.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask that the witness
19 is shown the exhibit of the Prosecutor, P4.
20 Q. Mr. Jusufi, these photographs were shown to you by the learned
21 colleague the Prosecutor during his examination.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Before I ask the question to you, please tell me: Your wife was
24 completely conscious all the time and she allowed it --
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. My colleague has
1 gotten up. Maybe he would like to say something.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: Apologies for the interruption.
4 I showed the witness a photograph that was marked as P9, and I
5 believe we're looking at a different photograph. If it's P4, we're
6 looking at a different photograph.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe it is a mistake, but P4
8 was -- we wrote that this is P4.
9 JUDGE PARKER: P4 is the photograph that was at tab 1 of the
10 bundle that was shown to Mrs. Jusufi.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mm-hm, I apologise. I apologise.
12 Q. Mr. Jusufi, I apologise. This photograph has not been shown to
13 you but to your wife. Tell me, do you recognise this photograph and the
14 person that is on it?
15 A. Yes, I do, of course. It's Rami Jusufi.
16 Q. You said that your wife immediately went to clean the blood of
17 your son. Your wife was conscious and did everything to assist your son.
18 Is it so?
19 A. Yes. She was very upset, but she believed and I believed, too,
20 that he was not yet dead. We thought that he was just wounded. And she
21 tried to administer some help to him. And then after that, she lost
22 consciousness when she saw him die, because she has a weak heart. She
23 cannot stand blood.
24 Q. So if I understood you well, your wife fell -- fainted after she
25 saw your son being dead. Is it correct?
1 A. Yes, yes. She fainted. I was on -- optimistic until that
2 moment, hoping against hope that he would live. But then we never
3 thought that he would die so quickly.
4 Q. Mr. Jusufi, on the front page, you can see that these trousers
5 are not bloody, could you -- can you?
6 A. I can see it. But when my wife was cleaning up his wound, his
7 blood, probably she has pushed down a little bit his trousers. I don't
8 see any problems in that.
9 Q. And these trousers are not buttoned-up, really?
10 A. He didn't have time enough to button-up his trousers because it
11 was a matter of seconds, before he changed into his trousers. He was in
12 pyjamas first, and when he saw the blast -- he heard the blast and the
13 door -- all the house shook. Then he just put on his trousers and didn't
14 have time to button-up trousers, and then he rushed to the door. It was
15 -- it took only 10 seconds, all this.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You can take these photographs
18 away. I would now ask Your Honours to show photograph 65 ter -- I didn't
19 get the number.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, could you like to -- for her to
21 repeat the number, please? The interpreter didn't get the number.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter number 608, page 7,
23 photograph number 0501-6265, that the witness recognised and described,
24 to tender it as an evidence of the Defence.
25 JUDGE PARKER: I believe the witness has looked at two
1 photographs that are not exhibits. One is presently on the screen; the
2 other appeared to be the photograph that is also at tab 2 of the bundle
3 used with Mrs. Jusufi.
4 Now, are you tendering both photographs?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. But I thought
6 that the one that is now displayed on the screen is already Exhibit P4.
7 If I'm wrong, then I would like to tender this photograph as an exhibit
8 of the Defence as well.
9 JUDGE PARKER: No, you are correct, Ms. Residovic. So the one
10 that is at tab 2, ID 0482T will now be received as well.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You take all this picture from my
14 side, please.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please take the photograph away
16 from the screen.
17 Q. Mr. Jusufi, I will now ask you something completely different.
18 You know Kenan Salievski or Kenan Saliu. Is it correct?
19 A. He is a villager of our village. Yes, I do.
20 Q. At the time of the event, in August 2001, he was a president of
21 the village, in Ljuboten, wasn't he?
22 A. He was the chairman of the -- of a staff, a Crisis Staff, because
23 all villages had their own Crisis Staffs. They were at the school. This
24 is what I know about him.
25 Q. He is today also the president of the local community, isn't he?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. But, in any event, he is a very important and influential person
3 in the village?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. At the time of the event, as a president of a Crisis Staff, will
6 you agree with me that he knew well the situation in the village?
7 A. The situation was calm and quiet in the village at that time. We
8 had a normal life, until the 11th. Nothing happened. There were some
9 shots, but life was normal for us, like, all the time.
10 Q. Mr. Jusufi, we know and you have said it as well, that at that
11 time you were also ill and that your movement was limited, given the
12 situation of your health. Will you agree with me that you received many
13 of the information by hearing them from other persons and not seeing them
14 firsthand or that you were present at those events. Is that correct?
15 A. No. We talked all the time about developments, things. People
16 came and visited me, had coffee, we discussed how things were. Nothing
17 extraordinary was happening. Had we known what was going to happen, we
18 would have left a month ago. But until the last day, we didn't know
19 anything. We didn't expect this to happen. If we did, of course we
20 would have left the village six months ago. But nothing was happening.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you. So you learned about the things from the
22 village when your relatives and neighbours were coming at your house and
23 were talking about it, but you did not go personally at the meetings or
24 you didn't go around the village personally to -- to find out what is
25 going on in the village. Is it correct?
1 A. No, I didn't. But I was eager to know what was going on. I
2 wanted to leave if we had known that, but we didn't know that this was
3 going to happen to us. I always kept in touch with people because my
4 house was near the check-point, and they said to us, "Stay quiet, stay
5 there, nothing is going to happen."
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours for the sake of the record, document
8 65 ter 608, page 7, bearing ERN number 0501-6265 will become Exhibit
9 1D 4.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. But, Mr. Kenan Salievski is a president of a Crisis -- of the
12 Crisis Staff. He was present at the meetings that were held in the
13 village, and he personally talked with certain people, and you can agree
14 with me that his knowledge of what really was going on in the village was
15 better than yours?
16 MR. SAXON: Objection.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm not sure if this witness can speak
19 to the knowledge of another person in the village.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can understand the question well
21 enough, Mr. Saxon, to be an inquiry whether this witness would accept
22 that the chairman of the crisis committee should have a better knowledge
23 of what was happening in the village than he. That is the way
24 The Chamber would understand it, and I think that is what was intended.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
1 Q. Could you answer it, Mr. Jusufi?
2 A. [No interpretation].
3 Q. Mr. Salievski, as a president of the Crisis Staff, would
4 certainly have information much more precise than those in your
6 A. No, of course, I didn't have as much information as Kenan had
7 because I did not attend those meetings, but I heard information about
8 the situation, that the situation was calm, that nothing was going on.
9 Compared to him, I would say I knew only 1 per cent of the information.
10 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me, Mr. Jusufi, if I were to
11 tell you that from your village, the NLA members were Suat Salu,
12 Riza Jonuzi, Besim Murtezani, Rafet Bajrami, Shefket Bajrami, Fikret
13 Aliu, Rushan Jashari, Ramadan Alimi, Musa Selimi, Refedin Selimi, Faik
14 Murati, Shefket Murati, Zeqir Murati, Rasim Murati, and probably other
15 persons that I would not mention this time. Do you agree with me, that
16 these people were NLA members or affiliated with it?
17 A. This I don't know. I cannot provide you with any answer because
18 I did not hear about these things. I regret, but I really cannot give
19 you any answer to this question, because I don't know.
20 Q. But, Mr. Jusufi, you would -- if those facts were correct, the
21 president of the Crisis Staff would learn about it?
22 A. This I don't know. You should ask him about these things because
23 I have nothing to do with this matter. I have no knowledge about it.
24 Q. All right. You are familiar with the name Baki Halimi?
25 A. Yes, he is from the village. I now him. A co-villager. Not
1 related to me.
2 Q. You are also aware that he was known in the village by the name
3 Commander Lisi?
4 A. I have no idea. This is the first time I hear about Lisi. I
5 have no idea about this name.
6 Q. If I were now, Mr. Jusufi, to tell you that Baki Halimi, on the
7 Saturday of 11th of August, 2001, convened a meeting of all males who
8 could defend the village, to a meeting, you could confirm this fact as
10 A. This is not correct. To what I heard, not that I saw anything
11 with my own eyes, but I heard that Baki Halimi was at the check-point in
12 a camp. Maybe it was not a camp, but it was a camp surrounded by
13 policemen. Not only Baki, but perhaps 2.000 other people who were there
14 on that check-point surrounded by the police. I don't know about this
15 meeting, and I don't think that this meeting was convened. He is
16 nothing. He is only a teacher in the primary school.
17 Q. And the information that he was on the check-point, are you
18 referring to the Sunday, the 12th?
19 A. Yes, I apologise. I refer to the Sunday. As for the Saturday, I
20 have no knowledge. I apologise once again.
21 Q. Could you confirm, Mr. Jusufi, that your sons, Rami and
22 Salahedin, together with Fatmir and Meshir Kamberi, Avni Hyseni and
23 others were in the meeting with the Commander Lisi on the Saturday
25 A. No. No, on Saturday, my son was not there, not on the Friday,
1 not on the 15th, not on the 8th, not on the 7th. He had handymen
2 working on that facility that you have seen on the picture. He was
3 busy -- busy with these handymen. He was in the house. As for the
4 others that you mentioned, I don't know about them, whether they were or
5 not. But for my son, I can tell you that he was not there.
6 Q. Mr. Jusufi, could you confirm that, because of that situation
7 where the checkpoints were organised in the village that -- because of
8 that situation on the Saturday evening, your daughter-in-law and your
9 grandchildren went to your daughter's, to the Durmisina neighbourhood?
10 A. Yes. Do you want me to explain about this or ...
11 Q. No. I just wanted to ask you that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Could you tell me that actually at that moment you were not aware
14 what the -- some members of NLA had on the previous date, on the 10th of
15 August gone into the village of Ljuboten?
16 A. No. I not only didn't see this, but I didn't even hear about
17 this. I never heard that there were NLA in Ljuboten village. And you
18 should know this for a fact. I'm stating this publicly that there was no
19 NLA persons in the village.
20 Q. I think that there is a slight problem in the transcript in the
21 lines 14 to 18. You have asked whether you wish -- whether you wished to
22 explain something. In the line 17, I said that I did not wish you to
23 explain and that I only wanted to ask you this, but later in the line 18,
24 there is your answer "No."
25 So in order to avoid the contradiction of what your reply
1 actually was, I would like to repeat the previous question, and that is
2 the question whether you can confirm that because of the situation in the
3 village, your daughter-in-law and your grandchildren went to your
4 daughter's, to the Durmisina neighbourhood. Is that correct?
5 A. I didn't understand correctly the neighbourhood that you
7 Q. To the house of your daughter?
8 A. Yes, yes. They all went. My daughter-in-law and the children,
9 they all went to my daughter's place, because the children were scared.
10 They were very scared of the police because the police was just nearby.
11 The church was near our house. They were all in panic, and I told them
12 to do so. I even told my late son to join them and to leave, but he
13 didn't want to leave me and his mother alone.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. We have now clarified it, and we
15 avoided a contradiction. It appeared as you have said that your
16 daughter-in-law and grandchildren had not gone, but I think that
17 everything is now clear in the transcript.
18 I would go back to what I have asked you before this
19 clarification. On the 10th of August, 2001, you have learned that at the
20 Ljubotenski Bachila locality from a mine explosion, eight soldiers of the
21 army of the Republic of Macedonia were killed and many soldiers were
22 wounded. Have you learned this on the 10th of August, 2001?
23 A. Yes, I heard about this. I heard that the mine explosion killed
24 eight or -- I don't know exactly how many they were, but I heard about
1 Q. And all the time after that, you were inside your house, and
2 except with your family, you never discussed that event. Is that so?
3 A. Yes. No.
4 Q. So you don't know at all whether any of the persons who have
5 placed the mine were from the village of Ljuboten, and you don't know
6 whether some persons who have placed the mine there on that date came
7 into Ljuboten village to hide. You never received any information on
8 that; is that correct?
9 A. No. I have no knowledge about this. I have no comment about
10 this, because I didn't hear or see anything related to this matter.
11 Q. And at the end - just a few more questions, Mr. Jusufi - you
12 stated that your daughter-in-law and grandchildren went to your
13 daughter's. If I were to tell you that your sons Rami and Salahedin took
14 also your wife to the house of your daughters's on the Saturday evening,
15 that would be the complete truth. Is that correct?
16 A. On Saturday evening? Can you please repeat your question.
17 Q. Yes. So on the Saturday, 11th of August, your sons have taken
18 your wife to the house of your daughter's and also tried to make you go,
19 but you refused; is that correct?
20 A. No, no, no. My wife did not go. The younger son went there with
21 all the children. The seven children, the younger son and the two
22 daughters-in-law, they went to my daughter's, while myself and my wife
23 and the other son remained at home. This is the truth. I said to him,
24 "You go, too," but he didn't want to leave his mother and me alone in the
1 Q. On Saturday evening, is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that your sons
2 returned to convince you that you should go to your daughter's, but that
3 you did not want that and that you remained with them in the house; is
4 that correct?
5 A. I remained in the house. Three persons remained in the house:
6 myself, my wife and my son. Nobody else. The others left for my
8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Jusufi, for answering all questions that
9 I have asked you, and I regret if you suffered some additional
10 inconveniences because of your health status in relation to my
11 questioning. Thank you.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honour.
16 I would like to ask questions to the witness. I hope that I will
17 avoid my questions overlapping with the questions with my colleague,
18 Edina Residovic.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusufi, first I regret the loss of your son.
21 I know that it is difficult for you to answer regarding these difficult
22 moments, but you have to understand that I need to ask you several
23 questions related to the event.
24 Can I start asking my questions, Mr. Jusufi?
25 A. Yes, you can.
1 Q. You say that you received disability pension; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is it correct that the state, the Republic of Macedonia, is
4 paying your pension? Is that --
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. It means that you're using free of charge your health insurance;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes, I'm insured because I worked 40 years for the state.
9 Q. Is it correct that in the village of Ljuboten, the teaching is in
10 the Albanian language in the primary school?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it correct that your children and your grandchildren are
13 educated free of charge in the Albanian language?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that in the Republic of Macedonia,
16 every four years there are elections?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that in Macedonia there are
19 parliamentary, residential, and local elections?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that in all elections the Albanians
22 vote freely and on a mass scale?
23 A. Well, they did cast their votes. Some did, some didn't, just
24 like in other places.
25 Q. Is it correct that the Albanians come out and vote freely?
1 A. To my knowledge, yes, they vote freely. Who wants to vote goes
2 out and votes; who doesn't, didn't. I did cast my vote, although I am an
4 Q. Do the Albanians in Macedonia have their representatives in the
5 parliament of the Republic of Macedonia?
6 A. Yes, they do.
7 Q. Does it mean that in the village of Ljuboten, the Albanians
8 freely go and vote?
9 A. Yes, freely. There was never any incident.
10 Q. Is it correct that your late son, Rami Jusufi, has served in the
12 A. Yes. In Slovenia, in Crnomelj.
13 Q. Can you tell us what was -- what branch was he serving his
14 conscription in?
15 A. Quartermasters. I don't know what exactly this means, but it was
16 equal to master unit.
17 Q. Whether in the period between the 10th and 12th of August, you
18 had running water in your house?
19 A. No, we didn't. During the summer, we don't have water. Not only
20 in August, even now we don't have water during the summer. And we --
21 during this particular year, we used to carry water on our tractors from
23 Q. Did you store the water inside your house once you would take it?
24 A. I didn't understand you.
25 Q. When you would take the water home from Bashinec, did you leave
1 the containers where you would take the water inside the house?
2 A. We would fill plastic bottles, 100 or 200 bottles, and that would
3 last for ten days or two weeks. Even nowadays we do the same thing.
4 Q. Were --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
6 Q. Do you store these plastic bottles inside your home?
7 A. In the house, we keep the bottles in sacks, and then we take the
8 sacks on the tractors and fill the bottles with water.
9 Q. Do you have a telephone line in your home?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Did you have a telephone line in the period between the 10th and
12 the 12th of August?
13 A. Until 8.00 on the 12th of August, I did. But when the
14 electricity went off, the phone was not working, because it works on
15 electricity. So as soon as the electricity went off, the phone was no
16 longer working.
17 Q. Do you mean to say that your telephone is connected to an
18 electric outlet? Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Could you clarify the model of the telephone -- the make of the
21 telephone that you have at home?
22 A. That I don't know. That phone is no longer working. The police
23 destroyed it with the bursts of fire directed at the house. The phone
24 was completely destroyed.
25 Q. Whether in the period between the 10th and the 12th of August you
1 were using a mobile phone?
2 A. No. Personally, I didn't. This land line, I use it very rarely,
3 only to speak to my relatives. And, as I said, it worked at nearly 8.00
4 on the 12th of August. But as for mobile phones, I didn't have one and
5 neither did my son. Nobody of us had a mobile phone.
6 Q. Can you clarify whether it was 8.00 in the morning; is that
8 A. I don't understand your question. To which date do you refer?
9 Q. You have previously replied that the question [sic] was not
10 working from 8.00 on the 12th of August. Is that 8.00?
11 A. Yes, 8.00 a.m. As soon as the electricity went off, the phone
12 was no longer in working order.
13 Q. Is it correct that on the 10th of August, 2001, that is the
14 Friday, you have seen how grenades, shells were falling on to the village
15 for the entire day?
16 A. Yes. This I have seen with my own eyes. And I saw when the
17 shell fell near the mosque, in the direction of the mosque, and in the
18 direction of the graveyard.
19 Q. Could you indicate the number of that shells?
20 A. I personally saw and heard two, because I was out in the yard
21 when it exploded and when smoke came out. I heard the blast.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the usher show the
23 panorama of the village of Ljuboten, ERN NOO5-7605. I apologise,
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Dash, not slash.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge this
3 Could the witness indicate the locations where he has seen the
4 shells falling? We are referring to Friday, the 10th.
5 I would like to ask the usher to give him ...
6 Q. I would like to ask you to mark the places where you have seen
7 the shells falling on the Friday morning, the 10th -- 10th of August,
9 A. Not in the morning. It wasn't in the morning. Not in the
10 morning. It was in the afternoon.
11 Q. It means that you will now mark the locations where the shells
12 were falling on the Friday afternoon.
13 A. Yes. Here at the mosque, on the left minaret, then it fell near
14 the door of the neighbour. The other one fell at the graves, but I can't
15 seem to found out where the graveyard is.
16 Q. I would like to ask you, Mr. Jusufi, to mark them with the marker
17 that you have in your hand.
18 A. But I can't find the cemetery here; this is my problem. This is
19 where I saw it fall.
20 I can't find the graveyard here. This is where I saw the smoke
21 rising from the graveyard.
22 Q. Could you at least mark what you see?
23 A. The mosque, yes, I can -- I can mark. Shall I mark it?
24 Q. Mark it with the number 1.
25 A. Number 1, okay.
1 Q. The place that you marked with number 1, was that the place that
2 you saw the shell falling; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct. I can't find the graveyard yet.
4 Q. Could you mark it number 2?
5 A. I cannot mark it because I cannot find it, where it is. I cannot
6 find the graveyard, so I cannot mark it.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in, into the
9 photograph, please.
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
11 Perhaps to assist because the zooming-in motion is actually done
12 on the screen in front of the witness, and the witness is looking at the
13 photograph on the ELMO. Perhaps if the witness could be directed to look
14 at the computer screen, he may be able to assist more.
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Could you please look in the computer desk where you will be able
17 to see the photograph zoomed-in?
18 A. But I can't find the graveyard. So it may be about 50 metres in
19 that area.
20 Q. Then if you can't --
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Then I propose to have this
22 picture marked as -- with number 1, to have it tendered in evidence.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D 1, Your Honours.
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. You said you had been working in a state company; is that
3 A. I worked in the Institute of Agriculture. We were together with
4 the Faculty of Agriculture.
5 Q. You also said that the Ljuboten residents are engaged in
6 agricultural works; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct. I would say 90 per cent of them.
8 Q. Does it mean that your family was engaged in agricultural works
9 as well; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. What kind of agricultural works your family is engaged in?
12 A. I grow tobacco, watermelon and melon, vegetables. Wheat and
14 Q. Your son, Rami Jusufi, on Friday, 10th of August, 2001, was in
15 Skopje and he was selling watermelons; is that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. In your statement, Mr. Jusufi, of October 3, 2004, 2D 28, page 4,
18 paragraph 17, in the English version, you say that in the last two days
19 before the event, your son was doing some construction work in the house
20 and that he was doing it also on the Friday. Is that correct?
21 A. On Friday, he sold watermelon, also on Saturday. On the 8th and
22 9th, he had some handyman who were working to finish a stable, is the
23 correct version.
24 Q. Could I state, Mr. Jusufi, that these two statements regarding
25 what your son was doing on Friday differ from one another?
1 A. No, they do not differ. On Friday, he sold melon; on Saturday
2 did the same. I don't think there is any difference in there. I saw it
3 in my own eyes and I was there. Why are you trying to put this to me?
4 Q. I just read out the statement that you have given before the ICTY
5 OTP investigators that you gave on October 3, 2004. 2D 28, page 4,
6 paragraph 17, whereby you say that:
7 "In the last two days before the event, my son was doing some
8 construction works in the house. He was also doing it on the Friday."
9 That is your statement?
10 A. No, no, that is wrong. It is a mistake. Maybe the translator
11 has got it wrong. He worked with it on the 7th, with the other handyman
12 on the 8th, then the -- then the construction materials ran out and they
13 stopped that. And then he had to sell the melons, and he went to sell
14 it, as I said.
15 Q. When did you go to bed on the Friday evening, on August 10th,
17 A. As usual, when we felt like sleeping, we went to bed. We watched
18 television for a while. Maybe it was 10.00, or 9.00. It's a long day
19 and the short night. So people go to sleep earlier than usual. They
20 don't even watch television a lot.
21 Q. Is it correct that you locked your gate on the Friday evening?
22 A. We closed the gate always. We do it now, we did it 20 years ago.
23 We never leave the door open, or the gate open.
24 Q. When did you wake up on Saturday, August 11, 2001?
25 A. What can I tell you? It depends. My sleep varies, but usually I
1 wake up at 4.00 in the morning, because I have pills to sleep. I have a
2 bad sleep. People who work all day, usually they sleep late in the
3 morning, until 8.00 or so. But my wife and myself, we usually wake up
5 Q. Is it correct that your son on Saturday was in Skopje and
6 returned home at 1900 hours?
7 A. Yes. But not at 7.00, a little bit later. I can't be very
8 precise, but I remember that it was before night fell. It was still
9 light when he came from selling the watermelon. The police recognised
10 him at the check-point and let -- they let him go before the others.
11 Please, this is what he told me.
12 Q. Does it mean that you confirm -- does it mean that you confirm to
13 me that your son returned home on Saturday and then at that time it was
14 still visible; it was still daylight outside?
15 A. It was getting darker. I was at the gate. It was still
17 Q. Does it mean that on Saturday your son, Rami Jusufi, was not
18 doing any construction works in his yard?
19 A. No, he wasn't. He wasn't doing any construction work.
20 Q. In your statement dated October 3, 2004, 2D 28, page 4, paragraph
21 17, you say that the last two days before the event, your son was doing
22 some construction works around the house; that he did it also on the
23 Friday. He was home the entire day Saturday.
24 Is that correct?
25 A. No, no. Neither on Saturday nor on Friday. I told you. Why do
1 you ask me again? Friday and Saturday, he sold watermelon. He wasn't a
2 handyman. He left his car there and helped them in one way or another,
3 told them what to do for an hour or so, or half an hour, or a quarter of
4 an hour, but this doesn't mean that he was a handyman. You may say as
5 you wish, but this is not exactly how it was.
6 Is it correct, that on Saturday it was raining and it was -- and
7 there were thunderstorms, that many shells were thrown on the village and
8 that I was able to hear light fire-arms shooting. I could see the
9 places, from my garden, where the shells hit and even later it started
11 When dawn came, there was raining and there was lightening. But
12 I don't know when it -- where it fell. When you see the light of the
13 lightening and hear the sound, at that moment the shell fell, and it
14 resembled the noise of the lightening. It was very interesting to note
15 that, but I can't tell you where it fell. The sounds were synchronised.
16 Q. Is it true that the village was shelled with many shells?
17 A. Many shells were thrown, but I don't know where they fell. I
18 could hear the roar of shells, but I don't know where they fell. I can't
19 tell you how many there were, because a tank was close by. Maybe one
20 kilometre away or less -- one kilometre and a half. The tank was buried
21 in the ground and there was a police check-point 200 metres away, that I
22 saw it with my own eyes. I can show you even now, if you want, where it
24 Q. Was the tank, that you now mention, close to your house?
25 A. Not close. When I went out in the yard, I could see it. The
1 barrel was directed to the village. The tank was there on the ground.
2 Q. In respect what you said, that many shells hit the village, could
3 you tell me whether there were more than 20 or less than 20?
4 A. I don't want to lie. I don't want to give a false number. It's
5 better if we leave it at that, without putting a number. I can't give
6 you an accurate number.
7 Q. Could you agree with me that you were not able to see from your
8 yard where exactly the shells hit?
9 A. I told you, I saw some fall at the mosque and near the graveyard
10 because I saw the smoke rising up. For the others, I don't know. I know
11 that a house was burned because of the shelling. It was down in the
12 Reka. They showed this to me, and once when I passed by with the car, I
13 saw it with my own eyes. You can ask those who have done it. Maybe they
14 can give you the right number.
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, should I continue
16 my examination, because we are getting close to the break time?
17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if it would be convenient to you, Mr.
18 Apostolski, we can break now and we will resume at 10 minutes past 4.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation].
23 Q. Mr. Jusufi, I will continue with several more questions.
24 A while ago, you told me that you saw when the shells were
25 falling during the day-time; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You said that a house was burned down in Reka?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that a -- some neighbourhood in Ljuboten that is called Reka?
5 A. It's called Reka, but it is far from our neighbourhood. It did
6 not burn that area, but the shell only fell there and I saw this with my
7 own eyes.
8 Q. Can I state that due to the shelling on Saturday, 11th of August,
9 2001, several houses were burning in Ljuboten?
10 A. On the Saturday, no. As far as I know, only that shell.
11 Nuredin Ismaili, I know that the shell fell on him.
12 Q. A while ago, you said that several shells fell -- that many
13 shells fell on the Saturday?
14 A. They did fall, but I don't know where, in which locations,
15 because it was raining and I was not able to see all of them. I was not
16 outside. I only heard the noise of the explosions.
17 Q. That means that you can only confirm that several shells fell on
18 Saturday, 11th of August?
19 A. Yes. I can only confirm that.
20 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that together inside the house on the
21 10th and 11th of August your wife, your son, your daughter-in-law and
22 their children, their four children lived?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is that correct, that in the house adjacent to yours, your
25 younger son Salahedin lives together with his family?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is it correct that your younger son, Salahedin, on Saturday night
3 took the children in the and have transferred them to your daughter's
4 house; is that correct?
5 A. That's correct, yes.
6 Q. Was it possible for them to go to the house of your daughter
7 without the knowledge of your wife?
8 A. We were all there in the house, myself included, when Rami and
9 Salahedin's children and wives went. We were all together. We were
10 discussing what to do, and I told them to go to my daughter's. My oldest
11 son said no, I will not go, I cannot leave you and my mother alone, while
12 the rest, they went to my daughter's place because her house is in a sort
13 of a valley. So the children and the daughters-in-law left and went to
14 my daughter's place, and this happened after dark fell.
15 Now whether it was 9.00 or 9.30, that I don't know, but I know
16 that all of them left and only the three of us remained in the house.
17 Q. Does it mean that your wife was present when they left; is that
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Mr. Jusufi, your wife has stated before this Honourable Court on
21 the 7th of May at page 76, lines 12 and 15, that your son Salahedin was
22 in his house on Saturday evening. That is in contradiction to the
23 statement that you are now giving. Could you tell me what is the truth?
24 A. The truth is what I'm telling you. As for what my wife said, I
25 don't know. She tends to forget. I know that we were all gathered
1 together, and I told them to leave. My wife has heart problems, and
2 maybe she was uncomfortable here in the courtroom when testifying, so I
3 don't know what she told you, but what I'm telling you is the truth.
4 Q. Could you agree anyway with me, Mr. Elmaz, that your statement
5 and the statement -- the statement of your wife are different?
6 A. I wouldn't say it's different, and I don't think that this really
7 matters. Her house is about 20 metres far from our house. I don't know
8 how my wife explained all this, but I don't see it relevant. What I'm
9 telling you is correct, because if that was the case, he would stay in my
10 house, but I guess my wife was kind of lost when she said that.
11 Q. Did any other persons come in your house on the evening on
12 Saturday, 11th of August, 2001?
13 A. No. You know why? Because I would have been able to see that.
14 You should know that on that night, I couldn't sleep at all, and if
15 someone was there, I would have heard that. Even if someone is at the
16 gate, I would have heard that. I hear very well. I guarantee that
17 nobody was there because we lock the entrance door before we go to sleep.
18 I don't know at what time we went to bed. I did go to bed, but I didn't
19 fell asleep immediately.
20 I heard noises of vehicles because you can hear them passing by
21 the street near our house. I don't know in which direction they went.
22 As I said, I need pills because otherwise I can't sleep well. This is
23 the truth.
24 Q. Does it mean that if some persons were present in the yard, you
25 would have surely heard them talking about the evening, the night between
1 11th and 12th of August?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 A. Yes, I could hear them.
5 Q. Is it correct that on the Saturday evening, your son and your
6 wife went to bed immediately after 12.00?
7 A. You mean 12.00, at midnight? I didn't understand your question.
8 Can you please repeat it.
9 Q. We are talking about 2400 hours.
10 A. Oh, I see, 2400 hours.
11 Q. I thought 2400 hours.
12 A. I already told you that we went to bed. There are three beds in
13 that room. We all went to bed. They did sleep, but I personally
14 couldn't sleep because I cannot go to sleep without taking the pills
15 previously. But even if you take pills, when you hear noise you cannot
16 go to sleep, and I could hear the noise coming from the street.
17 Q. May I state that your wife and your son Rami were asleep at 2400
19 A. Yes. I wasn't asleep, but they were.
20 Q. Your wife, in her statement given on 22nd of April, 2007, 2D
21 2253, page 2, paragraph 3, line 3, is saying that:
22 "We did not go to bed that night. We were frightened."
23 And this statement of your wife is in contradiction to the one
24 that you are giving now. Could you clarify what is the -- what is true?
25 A. I didn't understand your question. Can you please repeat it?
1 Q. You confirmed that your wife and your son at 2400 hours were
2 asleep; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Your wife, in the statement given on the 22nd of April, 2007, 2D
5 2253, page 2, paragraph 3, line 3, states:
6 "We could not sleep that night. We were frightened."
7 Can I conclude that they are two completely different statements;
8 yours given presently and hers given on the 22nd of April?
9 A. Maybe she couldn't sleep that night, too. She was sleeping in a
10 separate bed. Now, I don't know whether she could go to sleep or not,
11 but she was lying down in a separate bed. My son was, I guess, asleep
12 because he was tired. And as for my wife, maybe she couldn't go to
13 sleep, too. She doesn't sleep that long usually, and I don't see any
14 major difference here.
15 Q. Is it correct that on the Saturday evening, your gate was locked?
16 A. Yes, it was locked.
17 Q. You said that on Sunday, on the 12th of August, you got up at
18 5.00 or 6.00; is that correct?
19 A. Well, whether it was 5.00 or 6.00, I don't know exactly. But as
20 I have stated earlier, I usually wake up at 4.00 and stay awake and like
21 that. Anyways, it was between 5.00 and 6.00 that I woke up. I had
22 something to eat. My wife usually wakes up around the same time.
23 Q. Your wife took you to the yard; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. I can go by myself, but there is an elevated part, so she
25 needs to push me a little bit, but at that time I was in a better health
1 state than I am now.
2 Q. It means that your wife left you in the yard and immediately went
3 into the house; is that correct?
4 A. No. She went inside, she went to the garden, she looked after
5 her own work, she cleaned and washed. She did the usual female business.
6 I was near the car, near the gate.
7 Q. Does it mean that your wife, apart from the work in the garden,
8 did not do any other tasks in your yard; is that correct?
9 A. Well, you know how it is in villages. There is a lot of work to
10 be done. Women have a lot of work to do. She might have been cleaning
11 or washing something. I can't tell you exactly what she was doing and
12 what particular time, but she works all the time. She cleans the yard,
13 washes the yard, does her usual chores.
14 Q. You remained in the yard, you did not go outside of the house; is
15 that correct?
16 A. No. I remained in the yard. It was a little bit cooler. I
17 usually stay in the yard when it's hot, but I think I went in before
18 8.00. I didn't look at the watch. And, to tell you the truth, it did
19 not occur to me at that time that this would befell on us. Had it
20 occurred to me, I would have done something else.
21 Q. Is it correct that from the yard, when your wife took you there,
22 you did not leave it to go on the street; is that correct?
23 A. I remained there, and I could move then on my own because that's
24 the way how that location is. When you go up, she helps me, but then
25 when I go down, I can come back myself. I'm used to that area because I
1 have been like this for ten years. I'm surprised with your questions.
2 Every invalid knows how to operate --
3 Q. Did your wife help you go out from the yard to the street?
4 A. I didn't go out on the street. I was inside my yard. The street
5 is on the other side of the gate. This is not a street; this is a yard.
6 Q. You stated that you have heard a loud sound, and this is how the
7 gate opened; is that correct?
8 A. This happened when I was inside the house, in the corridor, when
9 I already returned to the house. Your questions are not being asked in
10 order. I called Muzafer on my way back because he's a neighbour. I said
11 to him, "Come, let's have a coffee together." We entered the house. We
12 were in the corridor. My son was sleeping in the room.
13 This was before 8.00, maybe quarter to 8.00. As I said, I did
14 not look at the watch, but the electricity went off at 8.00. We were
15 having coffee, and a normal conversation like any other day, as if
16 nothing was going on.
17 Now you're asking me about the moment when the door exploded, and
18 I'll tell you before the Honourable Judges that this explosion was a loud
19 one. The sound was similar to the sound of shelling, and the windows,
20 both in the ground floor and upper floor, were shaking.
21 At that moment, his mother, my son's mother, called on her son,
22 said to him, "Wake up, son, the door has exploded." And in that moment,
23 he put on his clothes, hurriedly. You asked me previously why he did not
24 button up his trousers. He didn't have time to do that because the gate
25 is only 4 metres away from the entrance door. The room where my son was
1 sleeping, if you consider the distance of the corridor, which is
2 2 metres, and 1 metre from the house, so it's 4 or 5 metres altogether.
3 So when they entered the yard, they fired shots in the air. They did not
4 fire in the direction of the entrance door, the door that takes you
5 inside the corridor, but they were opposite there.
6 I was just on the doorstep of -- of the room, and I said to him,
7 to my son, "Don't." And he said, "I just close the door." So he went to
8 the door and he was opposite to them, and they immediately fired a
9 burst of fire. I guess the bullets caught him immediately, and he fell
10 on the ground immediately. He was only 1 metre away from me when he fell
11 down, on my right side. Maybe you don't know here, but Macedonians know
12 very well the type of doors I'm talking about. These are Slovenian-make
14 He fell immediately on the ground, and he just uttered the words,
15 "They killed me."
16 At the moment, they fired in the corridor. It was similar to
17 hail. These bullets resembled a hail. The corridor is about 7 metres
18 long. The phone was on one side, and the gas container was near
19 it -- the washing machine. They came there at the door, the police, and
20 the policemen kicked the door open very strongly. I thought that the
21 door was going do fall on me because it is quite a tall door.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jusufi.
23 A. I have more to say.
24 Q. Does it mean that until the explosion -- does it mean that until
25 the explosion, the gate of the door was not open?
1 A. No, no. No. The outside door, the gate, was opened when it
2 exploded. They destroyed it.
3 Q. I am asking you, Mr. Jusufi, is it that until the explosion the
4 gate to the door was closed?
5 JUDGE PARKER: It may be a problem of the translation,
6 Mr. Apostolski. But the question as it is translated into English is
7 confusing. Are you speaking of the gate from the street to the yard?
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: Yes.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Or the door from the yard into the house?
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: Translate.
11 [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm referring throughout about the
12 gate to the street.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. So your question is concerning whether
14 that was locked at the time of the explosion -- effects to that gate?
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question is
16 whether that gate, up until the moment of the explosion, was closed.
17 I didn't hear the answer.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, the gate was closed.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation].
20 Q. In your statement, Mr. Jusufi, of the 9th of February, 2003,
21 2D 12, page 4, paragraph 1, line 1, you are saying that you have heard
22 five APCs and five covered trucks, while in the addendums or corrections
23 to the statement of Elmaz Jusufi, according to Rule 92 ter, 2D 2295, page
24 3, paragraph 6, line 3, you are saying:
25 "I have seen one APC and one covered truck."
1 And yesterday, before this Tribunal, you have stated that you
2 didn't know what the number was. Is that correct?
3 A. I did see them, but I did not give any number, whether there were
4 two, three or five. It is a fact that I saw both trucks and the other,
5 whatever you call it, pass by, but I did not give any number. Several
6 passed by. They entered the yard of the church.
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can we see the photograph 65
8 ter -- excuse me, can we see the photograph 65 ter 199.3? If the usher
9 could show this photograph to the witness so that he could mark it.
10 Could we zoom out the photo so that the entire yard is visible?
11 Could we zoom it out? A bit further so that the door to the right is
12 visible. A bit more, a bit more. A slight bit more. Yes, that's it.
13 Q. Could you mark with 1 where were you standing when you have seen
14 the vehicles, regardless of whether there were five, one, or whatever the
16 A. Near the tap.
17 Q. Please mark the -- show on the picture?
18 A. I was here. I was here. Here is the water tap and the hose.
19 Q. Please number?
20 A. Which number?
21 Q. If you could mark it with the number 1. Number 1.
22 Could you confirm that where the number 1 is, you were located on
23 the Sunday morning, when you have seen the covered trucks and the
24 transporters. Is that correct?
25 A. I was staying here at that moment, but you should know that I am
1 not fixed in one place. I move about. It's a big yard. But from here,
2 you can see better and people from the street can also see me when I'm
3 here, but we're talking about big vehicles. And you can see these big
4 vehicles even if you're 10 metres far away from them. I cannot stay for
5 two hours in one single place. I move about.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "Carriers" instead
7 of "transporters."
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
9 Q. When you have seen the vehicles, was the door looking to the
10 street closed?
11 A. Yes. Yes, it was closed. The gate was closed. But don't look
12 at this gate as it is now because I've lifted them up with some concrete.
13 In the past, they were not this tall. We could see them even better.
14 The concrete layer you're seeing now is new. When the door was -- the
15 gate was burnt down, the concrete was destroyed as well. The picture
16 you're seeing is the picture of the gate as it is now.
17 Q. What was the colour of the vehicles?
18 A. You know the colour of the hermelines.
19 Q. I don't know the colour of the hermeline. I have never seen one.
20 A. You may not know it, but I do know it, because I have seen them
21 pass by on several occasions. I cannot tell you the exact colour, but
22 the hermelines are in one plain colour.
23 Q. Could you tell me what was the colour of the truck?
24 A. It was of a military colour, at least it resembled to me to be a
25 military colour. But I did not pay much attention to the colour.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Please could I tender this
2 photograph as an exhibit?
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D 2, Your Honours.
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown now a
6 photograph, Exhibit 1D 2?
7 Could I ask the kind assistance of the usher to show it to the
8 witness? Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Jusufi, do you see the photograph in front of you, first of
11 A. Yes, I can see it.
12 Q. Can you confirm that this wall -- at this wall on the 12th of
13 August, 2001, where -- where they are in the photograph?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you mark the door with the number 1? In the picture below.
16 I apologise.
17 A. Here.
18 Q. And mark the wall with the number 2.
19 A. [Marks].
20 Q. Could you write the number 2 again? It's not -- okay, then there
21 is no need. Okay.
22 Could you confirm now that the number 1 was used to mark your
23 door that was there on the 12th of August, 2001, and that the number 2
24 marks the wall?
25 A. [No audible response].
1 Q. Could you confirm that a while ago when you were speaking, you
2 were actually speaking about this door, that this was the door that was
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] May I ask that this photograph
7 is received in evidence.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D 3, Your Honours.
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
11 Q. On the Sunday morning, on the 12th of August, 2001, in your house
12 there were you, your wife, your son Rami, and your relative Muzafer
13 there; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Did Imret Jusufi come to your house at all on that morning?
16 A. No. He was -- he's young. It was only the four of us in the
17 house that morning.
18 Q. So you can confirm that Imret Jusufi was at no moment inside your
19 house on the Sunday morning?
20 A. No, he was not in the house. He was in his own house.
21 Q. In the addendum to your statement of the 9th of February, 2003,
22 on the 11th of August, 2006, 2D 60, you stated that:
23 "Imret Jusufi came to our house somewhere around 7.00 in the
24 morning. He brought me cigarettes and he left immediately."
25 A. This I don't know.
1 Q. "Muzafer Jusufi came around 7.00 in the morning, after we invited
2 him to come and have breakfast with us."
3 Is that correct?
4 A. I invited him to have a coffee with me. He is -- he lives
5 nearby. I asked him to come and join me for a coffee just as we usually
6 do every morning. I either go to his place or he comes over to our
8 Q. Mr. Jusufi, are you familiar with the name of Sabit Jusufi?
9 A. Sabit Jusufi is a relative of mine, but he doesn't live near my
11 Q. Is he the father of Imret Jusufi?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mr. Sabit Jusufi, in the statement he has given on the 28th of
14 September, 2004, 2D 71, page 2, paragraph 6, says:
15 "I don't remember many important details from within those two
16 days. I was home alone because my son Imret was in the house of
17 Elmaz Jusufi."
18 A. This I don't know. Maybe he was in the other house.
19 Q. These are two -- these are two different statements; is that
21 A. I don't know about this statement of his. Maybe he was in the
22 other house staying there out of fear. Of course, everybody was
23 frightened. Everybody was hiding. Now, whether he was in another house
24 or in his own house, that I don't know. But he was young and, of course,
25 he was hiding. I cannot tell you any more than this.
1 Q. Are you familiar with the name Xhevdet Jusufovski?
2 A. Yes, he's a relative of mine. His shop was set on fire.
3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you may allow
4 to go to a closed session.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
6 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Yesterday, you said that when you woke up on the Sunday and when
15 your wife took you to the yard, you were by yourself; is that correct?
16 A. Excuse me?
17 Q. You said that when you woke up on the Sunday, your -- and your
18 wife took you to the yard, you were by yourself. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes. We were alone in the yard, myself and my wife. My son was
21 Q. Before this Honourable Tribunal you testified today that if there
22 was -- there was someone in the yard on Saturday evening towards the
23 Sunday and the Sunday morning, you -- you would have surely heard; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Of course. Because I was outside the whole time. Whoever was
1 there, I was able to see that.
2 Q. You said that you have not heard of the name of Commander Lisi;
3 is that correct?
4 A. No, I'm not familiar with this name. I haven't heard of it.
5 Q. Are you familiar with the name Komandant Miskoja?
6 A. No, no. I don't know this name.
7 Q. You said yesterday that beside your house, there is the house of
8 Fatmir Kamberi; is that correct?
9 A. No. Fatmir Kamberi's house -- actually, he has two houses; a new
10 house that he has built, but he does not live there. Fatmir's house is
11 next to Sande's house, the neighbours here know that. It is next to
12 Sande's house. It is true that his house is there, but he doesn't live
14 Q. Did you see Fatmir Kamberi in the weekend between 10th and 12th
15 of August?
16 A. I don't see him very often, maybe once a year, because we are not
17 closely related. We're kind of distant relatives. Maybe I see him only
18 once or twice a year.
19 Q. Is that correct that your son and Fatmir Kamberi are friends?
20 A. No. A neighbour is a neighbour. You cannot call a neighbour a
21 friend. Fatmir was a neighbour, like the other neighbours. You cannot
22 call him a friend.
23 Q. Does it mean that Fatmir Kamberi and your son, Rami, were not
24 close friends, or were not friends at all; is that correct?
25 A. No, they were not friends. I have never seen Rami speaking to
1 him. He was involved in other business. He mainly worked in the town,
2 while my son was mainly engaged in agriculture. I don't know what else
3 to state about this matter.
4 Q. Was maybe Fatmir Kamberi in your yard on Saturday evening towards
5 the Sunday?
6 A. No, no.
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we may enter a
8 closed session.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
10 [Private session]
11 Page 583 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You said that the electricity went off in the morning; is that
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. When did your wife start preparing the breakfast?
13 A. She started preparing the breakfast when there was still
14 electricity, and as soon as electricity went off, she stopped. We didn't
15 have any proper breakfast. We just had something to eat, just some
17 Q. Is it correct that you had a gas stove as an alternative in your
19 A. Yes. A three- or five-litre one; I'm not quite sure.
20 Q. Did you have breakfast on Sunday morning?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In the statement of 22nd of April, 2007, 2D 2253, page 3,
23 paragraph 5, she said that she took you back from the gate to have a
24 breakfast, but actually you didn't have breakfast that day. Will you
25 agree with me for this being correct?
1 A. Even nowadays I don't eat breakfast. I almost never have
2 breakfast. She did take a crust of bread and ate it. Now, don't ask me
3 what exactly we had for breakfast because this is not related to the
4 matters we discuss here. She took a crust of bread in the kitchen and
5 ate it. The younger people, they get up later on and they eat later.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. In the consolidated statement of yours, 2 2D
7 71, paragraph 21, you say that:
8 "I had breakfast in the corridor."
9 In the addendum -- or correction to the 92 ter rule is a
10 statement of Elmaz Jusufi of 22nd of April, 2007, 2D 2295, page 4,
11 paragraph 15, you say that:
12 "Between 7.30 and 8.00, I returned to the house and had breakfast
13 in the corridor."
14 These are your statements given before the ICTY OTP
15 investigators. Could you tell us what is correct now?
16 A. Listen, I'm in a wheelchair, and do you want me to tell you how I
17 eat? I take a piece of bread, I eat it with some salt. For me, this is
18 normal. I'm -- may eat only five or six grams of bread during the day.
19 That's why I'm in the state I am now. I'm really confused why you're
20 asking me these questions.
21 Ask me where it hurts, where the core matter lies.
22 Q. I would go back again to the moment of the death of your son. I
23 really feel sorry, but I think that this question had to be asked and I
24 would ask a few more questions regarding this event, bearing in mind that
25 my colleague Edina elaborated this in detail. I would ask just a few,
1 and I would repeat brief questions.
2 A. No problem.
3 Q. When your son was hit, what was his position in relation to the
4 door? We are talking about the door that is an entrance to your home.
5 A. I will explain it to you in practical terms. Here is the hand.
6 He caught the door in order to close it. He was turned like this. This
7 was his position. If I could demonstrate it to you, I would have done it
8 properly, but he just grabbed the handle. He turned like this and fell
9 on the ground. This is very clear. If we were there in the house and if
10 I was in a better state, I would have explained it exactly, how he was
11 standing in relation to the door.
12 Q. Okay, Mr. Jusufi --
13 JUDGE PARKER: Could I interrupt and try and include on the
14 record what I gathered of that demonstration, that Mr. Jusufi stood, as I
15 understood it, facing the open doorway, reached out with his left hand to
16 demonstrate grasping the door, and then swung with his body to his right,
17 and as he turned, he indicated his son was hit.
18 I -- that is what I could make of the demonstration. Is that
19 what you had in mind, Mr. Jusufi, and what you were trying to show to us?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. His stomach was opposite to
21 the policemen, turned towards the policemen, and as the door was opened
22 ajar, his hand was like this, so he was like this, in front of the
23 policemen. And this was the moment when he was shot and fell down. The
24 bullet caught him badly.
25 As soon as he fell down, he said, "They killed me." We thought
1 that it was not a major wound, but it turned out that it was. This was
3 JUDGE PARKER: From what I saw then, Mr. Jusufi indicated that
4 his son was standing with his stomach facing the open door, and then as
5 his left hand grasped the door and he turned to the right, there was a
6 firing and the bullet caught him.
7 You want to ask more about that, Mr. Apostolski?
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I thank you.
9 Q. Once your son --
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, should we go to a
12 JUDGE PARKER: I'm trying to judge Mr. Jusufi's condition.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. If you are not planning a
14 break now, we can go on. Don't do it just because of me.
15 JUDGE PARKER: I'd like to try and finish your questions before
16 we have a break, Mr. Apostolski, because we have to set up the courtroom
17 for a different type of witness, you see, during the break.
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that I
19 will finish my questions in the course of today. I don't believe I will
20 be able to finalise my questions before the break, but by the end of the
21 day, I will finish.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I'm assuming from what you said earlier, you might
23 have five or ten minutes more questioning, Mr. Apostolski; is that
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that I will
1 need 20 to 25 more minutes, with all due respect to the Court.
2 JUDGE PARKER: That being the case, we will have a break now for
3 everybody's sake, and we will resume at 6.00.
4 --- Upon recessing at 5.28 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Apostolski.
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mr. Jusufi, I will ask you a few more brief questions in order to
9 finish your testimony as soon as possible.
10 After your son was wounded, did you call anyone?
11 A. No. No, we didn't have a telephone.
12 Q. Were you besides your son all the time after he was wounded?
13 A. Yes. We stayed by his side all day. We were kind of -- we felt
14 paralysed, so to say.
15 Q. How soon after the wounding your son died?
16 A. I can't give you a precise time. Maybe after half an hour or 40
17 minutes, 25 minutes. I wouldn't be able to say. I know it wasn't long
18 after he was wounded. Not more than, let's say, 40 minutes.
19 Q. Mr. Jusufi, can we then conclude that it is correct in your
20 opinion that it was at the most 40 minutes, 45 minutes after the wounding
21 that your son died?
22 A. 45, you said? As I said, I can't be -- can't be precise. We
23 were very -- we were horrified at his death. We didn't even look at the
24 clock. More or less.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Part of the answer.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Did your son talk to someone else, apart from the three of you
3 inside the house?
4 A. He couldn't talk with us either, because he fell down on the
6 Q. So your son was not able, he was not in a condition to phone
7 anyone; is that correct?
8 A. No, he wasn't. That's correct. As I told you, we didn't even
9 have a phone.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you.
11 A. Thank you.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the names of the Albanian MPs in the
13 Macedonian assembly, or at least any of them?
14 A. Yes. I know all of them, not only the Albanians. I know all the
15 MPs. But I don't think it's a proper time to mention their names.
16 Arben Xhaferi is a member of the Parliament. Menduh Thaqi is also an MP.
17 Matoshi is another one. And I can tell you the Macedonian names, but you
18 can see them all the time on television.
19 Q. No, no. Is it correct that Mr. Fatmir Etemi was an MP in the
20 Macedonian assembly?
21 A. He was before. In 2002, I think he was.
22 Q. During the period 10th to 12th of August, 2001, was
23 Mr. Fatmir Etemi an MP in the Macedonian assembly?
24 A. Yes, he was. He was.
25 Q. Does he, as an MP, safeguard the interests of the Albanians in
2 A. I don't know how much he stood up for them. He would look after
3 his own interests, but what you're saying is normal, he should do that,
5 Q. Do you think that he would say something incorrect with regards
6 to the Ljuboten case?
7 A. He might say what -- he might say what might not be true. I
8 don't know. He might say things which are based on hearsay. I know that
9 he came up to the police check-point but turned back because he couldn't
10 make it any further. He couldn't come and see the people who were in
11 Kodrozemi [phoen]. I heard this from other co-villagers. How true that
12 is, you may know better.
13 Q. Whether you and Mr. Fatmir Etemi have spoken about the death of
14 your son?
15 A. He came after my son's death, Fatmir Etemi came, and
16 Muarem Jusufi, they came to pay me a visit, came to the village, stayed
17 for half an hour and left. Yes, they did come. But I didn't know them
18 personally, but they came.
19 Q. I would read to you the statement of (redacted).
20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would move for a
21 private session.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 591-592 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Did the Macedonian security forces -- I apologise. Did the
10 Macedonian security forces enter your house?
11 A. The police, you mean?
12 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand your question
15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: It seems that in the past with this witness -- with
18 this particular witness, the phrase "inside your house" or "entering your
19 house," could have more than one meaning, because as we've seen from the
20 photographs, there was a large gate near the road and then, of course,
21 below that, there was the home itself. And I'm wondering whether my
22 colleague could be a bit more specific about what he's asking.
23 JUDGE PARKER: I think that there is reason to be a little more
24 careful, Mr. Apostolski, because we've had difficulty in understanding
25 this issue earlier in the day.
1 You're asking, are you, whether there were police or Macedonian
2 security personnel inside the yard of the house or inside the front door
3 of the house?
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I'm speaking
5 about the house, I am speaking about the place where Mr. Rami Jusufi
6 lives. When I'm asking another question, then I'm asking about the yard.
7 So from now onwards, I will be more specific and I will say "inside the
8 house where Mr. Rami Jusufi lives."
9 Q. Do you, Mr. Rami Jusufi -- I apologise.
10 Did, Mr. Jusufi, Macedonian security forces enter the house where
11 you live?
12 A. No. They did not enter inside my house. They came up to the
13 yard and up to the door, the entrance door to my house. They came so
14 far. And then when they kicked the door --
15 Q. Were you injured by any of the security forces?
16 A. No. No, I wasn't. They saw me, but they didn't do anything to
17 me. I cannot say that they did.
18 Q. Did anyone injure your wife?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. One more, the last question, Mr. --
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. Mr. Jusufi, can you confirm that you have stated that you have
23 seen a helicopter flying over the village on the Sunday; is that correct?
24 A. I saw it, yes, one helicopter.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. Thank you.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jusufi. I apologise for having to examine you,
3 but these questions were going towards asserting the real truth about the
4 events in Ljuboten, the real truth about the -- the situation where your
5 son was injured and how did he die, and I think that this question and
6 this Court will establish properly the factual situation and then the
7 justice will be determined properly.
8 Thank you, Mr. Jusufi, for answering my questions.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, is there any re-examination?
10 MR. SAXON: I believe this will only take a few minutes,
11 Your Honour.
12 Before I begin, I would like to ask the usher if he could lower
13 the arm of the ELMO, because it is impossible for Mr. Jusufi and I to
14 look at each other.
15 Thank you so much.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
17 Q. Mr. Jusufi, earlier this afternoon when my colleague
18 Mr. Apostolski began to ask you some questions, he asked you some
19 questions about politics in Macedonia. He asked you whether, for
20 example, members of the Albanian community could vote freely. Do you
21 remember those questions?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. You've lived in Macedonia your entire life; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. To your knowledge, has there ever been an ethnic Albanian
1 president of Macedonia?
2 A. During Communism, yes. Not president, but deputy chairman of
3 Macedonia, Starova. But during democracy, no, we didn't have a president
4 or - how you call that? - the head of the government, president of the
5 government, no.
6 Q. The democratic period then since 1991 or 1992, has there ever
7 been an ethnic Albanian prime minister of Macedonia?
8 A. No. No prime minister.
9 Q. Why do you suppose that is?
10 A. What can I say? We are a minority in Macedonia and usually it's
11 the majority that forms the government. The prime minister comes out of
12 this majority. I don't know how to comment.
13 MR. SAXON: There was an exhibit that was admitted yesterday, I
14 believe during Ms. Residovic's cross-examination. That was Exhibit D 23.
15 Could that be shown to the witness, please, or pulled up on our screens.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think D 23 can be correct, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: I'm not going to ask the witness to correct it. I'm
18 simply --
19 JUDGE PARKER: No, no, the number.
20 MR. SAXON: Really. It was 65 ter number 170, page 5. It is --
21 I believe at page --
22 JUDGE PARKER: Is it 2D 3, by any chance?
23 MR. SAXON: One moment, please.
24 It's interesting, at page 40 of the LiveNote the number in the
25 transcript from yesterday is 23, Your Honour. I apologise if I'm
1 creating confusion. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it's 2D 3.
2 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think either number is correct.
3 MR. SAXON: Perhaps I can assist a little bit further.
4 If -- I will use the Prosecution's exhibit number to save time.
5 This would be 65 ter number 170 and the fifth page.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE PARKER: It may be 1D 2.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I see that number in the transcript.
9 But according to the transcript that appears to come --
10 JUDGE PARKER: If it was tendered by Ms. Residovic, it is 1D
11 because that is first Defence. 2D is second Defence.
12 MR. SAXON: So this -- I believe there is 1D 3, Your Honour, and
13 I'm grateful to Ms. Walpita for clarifying this. But I can use this
15 Q. Mr. Jusufi, yesterday when Ms. Residovic showed you this
16 photograph, she pointed out to you sort of the frame of a window on the
17 left-hand side of the photograph; do you see that?
18 A. The frame.
19 Q. Do you see where you marked the number 1? Do you see that on the
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. To the right of that number 1, there's some marks on the wall,
23 and you made a comment about them yesterday. And this is at page 38, the
24 first few lines of the LiveNote transcript. Yesterday, you said this:
25 "This is the mark that was hit by the police and I have not
1 changed it. I keep it that way."
2 Can you help us, please. What hit that wall; do you know?
3 A. Yes, yes. This is the mark left by the bullets. They -- they
4 shot also inside the room. That's not the only one. All the glasses of
5 the windows were broken. The bullets entered inside the rooms. This is
6 only outside. There were a lot of bullets that were fired. Their --
7 Honourable Judges, you should know that after they killed my son, they
8 fired many bursts of fire, thousands of bullets, I would say. I left
9 that one, but you can see holes in the frames as well. You can see holes
10 are still there, because the bullets hit not only the glass but also the
11 window frame. The stairs is made up of strong material, and even there
12 you can see bullets that have hit it and have destroyed the staircase.
13 Q. Very well.
14 A. Maybe I took a long time; I apologise for going into more detail.
15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions. Thank you.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
17 Mr. Jusufi, you will be pleased to know that that concludes the
18 questions for you. The Chamber would like to thank you very much for
19 coming to The Hague and for the assistance that you have been able to
20 give. We know it has been difficult physically and emotionally for you.
21 And we would now indicate that the court officer will help you to leave
22 the courtroom and that you may of course now go with your wife back to
23 your home as soon as the arrangements can be made.
24 It will be some little time, I'm afraid, before we finish all the
25 evidence, but you will just have to wait in patience for the end of the
1 case to see what might be the outcome.
2 But we would like to thank you indeed.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you,
4 Your Honours, for making it possible for me to come here and tell you the
5 truth as it was, because I know that this is the highest Tribunal in the
6 world which has been approved by the Security Council to judge serious
7 crimes. Therefore, I want to extend my thanks to you, Your Honours, for
8 enabling me to come here and tell you the truth. Otherwise, I wouldn't
9 be here. I wouldn't have come here if I were not to tell the truth.
10 I want to thank you very much again, and I'm very pleased with
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Jusufi. The court officer will
13 help you now to leave.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening to all of you.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Saxon, in view of the hour, and the fact
19 that we needed 20 minutes to set up the courtroom for the next witness,
20 we have already, through the court staff, made arrangements for that
21 witness to leave and to be back here at 2.15 tomorrow. There was just no
22 way that we could get any practical time out of the evidence that witness
23 could give if we were to start at five minutes to 7.00.
24 But at the commencement of today, you indicated there was a
25 matter you wished to raise, so can we deal with that?
1 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour, and this should only take a
2 few moments of the Court's time. I would like to raise a matter related
3 to witness scheduling.
4 First of all, the Prosecution filed a motion today -- actually,
5 before I go any further, are we in public or private session? I
6 apologise for not keeping track.
7 JUDGE PARKER: We're in public.
8 MR. SAXON: May we please go into private session, because
9 this -- we need to discuss the situation of one or more witnesses.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 601-602 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. The Chamber would indicate that it is
6 already very concerned at the rate of progress or lack of it in dealing
7 with the evidence. When the Prosecution opened, it was brave enough to
8 venture the possibility that we could finish the Prosecution case in
9 perhaps 11 weeks or certainly three months.
10 On present progress, if we maintain that rate, the most
11 pessimistic view is that we would still be hearing the Prosecution
12 evidence at the beginning of next year. That's how dramatically wrong
13 our progress has been so far.
14 Now, the Chamber is well aware that we are just starting into a
15 new case with new procedures, and that it will take time for all counsel
16 to adjust. In the Chamber's view, it is time for us to encourage you to
17 take particular attention to that.
18 Yes, for the Prosecution, if you have a witness whose evidence is
19 essentially given in the form of a written statement, the extra questions
20 asked need to be looked at to see whether they really are important and
22 For the Defence, both Defence teams, it's very important that you
23 come to a clear view very early in the case, we would suggest, as to what
24 matters are important to your Defence and what matters are just
1 If your proposition, for example, is that a witness has made a
2 number of statements that conflict with evidence given here, it is more
3 than enough to illustrate that by putting to the witness important
4 differences. There's no need to track down every little discrepancy.
5 There are some things that matter, and there are other things that we can
6 all be confused or mistaken about. If it is going to have significant
7 weight with the Chamber, it is likely to need to be one of those
8 important matters that the witness has differed about.
9 So that if you concentrate on those, we will not unnecessarily
10 waste time, and you will be able to make the point that is important for
11 your client and make it the more effectively if it can be made quickly
12 with a few very clear examples over matters that are really important.
13 Secondly, we can already see, and I'm sure you've realised
14 yourself, that you have gone away and each prepared separately to
15 cross-examine the same witness, with the result that often the same
16 issues are put to the witness twice, questions are really repetitive.
17 Now, once the matter has been aired, there is no need to go over
18 it again. It's there, the witness has told you the answer to the issue
19 that you're going to put.
20 So we would encourage counsel to be very conscious of these
21 matters -- I'm looking for the microphone that's on somewhere, we're
22 getting feedback, but I can't see it, apart from mine. That feedback
23 sound is normally an indication that there is a second microphone
24 switched on, but we will carry on.
25 It's important that you try and concentrate on the issues that
1 matter and avoid merely duplicating points that have already been put to
2 the witness and dealt with.
3 And a second proposition that you might care to consider is that
4 if a witness has said, "I was at so-and-so on" -- I'll give something
5 that is nothing to do with this case, "on the morning of 9th of May,
6 2007." If the witness has said that, it's on the transcript, we've heard
7 it, we know it. There's no value in saying, "Now, you have said in this
8 Court that you were at so-and-so on the 9th of May, 2007, is that
9 correct," before going on to put to him that he said some other time that
10 he was not there on that day, or to put to him that other witnesses will
11 say that he wasn't there, he was at a very different place.
12 So there's no need just to get confirmation of what he has
13 already said, it's there, it's in the record, it's clear that he has said
14 it. The point you want to make is that he said something quite different
15 at some other time, or that other witnesses will say something quite
16 different, and correctly that's put to him to see whether he has some
17 explanation for the difference or not.
18 You will understand that these matters are offered by the Chamber
19 as a way of trying to assist counsel as quickly as possible to get into
20 the way of our procedure here and to speed up the rate at which we are
21 dealing with what really matters in this case, because if we can't
22 achieve that, all of us will be here for very much longer than expected,
23 and what is important for the Defence is that it means the two accused
24 and their families will be waiting a very much longer time to come to the
25 end of the case and to get the outcome. And they, of course, have a very
1 significant interest in having their case properly heard, but properly
2 heard as quickly as possible.
3 So we would encourage you with those things, and you will
4 understand that we may have to offer some further comments as we gain
5 more experience over the next few days and even weeks. You will be aware
6 that in some cases, some Trial Chambers find they really must, in the
7 end, impose time-limits to make sure that we keep within a strict time.
8 Now, we prefer to avoid that, if we can, because we prefer to
9 leave it to the judgement of counsel as to what is important and what
10 isn't. We put that trust in counsel. We ask that it be respected by
11 counsel really only spending time on those things that really matter to
12 their case. With that, we can hear the case fairly and fully and as
13 quickly as possible, which is our objective.
14 It's time now to adjourn for the day. We resume tomorrow at
16 Thank you all.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.51 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of
19 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.