1 Thursday, 10 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you please stand and read
7 the affirmation on the card that is now given to you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will.
9 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
10 and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS M-017
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
14 Ms. Motoike.
15 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. Good afternoon, Your Honours. I don't
16 believe we have officially called the witness. We would call
17 Witness M-017 at this time.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, to assist the Chamber because there
20 are a number of documents that the Prosecution intends to exhibit through
21 this witness, we have prepared similar binders, what we'll call witness
22 binders, containing these proposed exhibits in hard copy for the
23 Chambers. The exhibits, however, will be displayed through e-court. If
24 we could distribute those now.
25 May I proceed?
1 Examination by Ms. Motoike:
2 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
3 MS. MOTOIKE: Could I please have the usher's assistance in
4 providing the witness --
5 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: Could I please have the usher's assistance in
7 providing the witness with a document that bears ERN number 0424-7790?
8 I'm sorry, Mr. Usher. I don't believe it's in the witness binder. I
9 have a hard copy.
10 Q. Witness, could you please take a look at this piece of paper that
11 is before you and tell us whether, without reading any of the names or
12 any of the information out loud, whether the names written on this --
13 whether there are two names written on this piece of paper?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you please tell us if the second name that appears on this
16 piece of paper is the correct spelling of your legal name?
17 A. No, it's not.
18 Q. Is the first name that appears on this piece of paper the correct
19 spelling of your legal name?
20 A. The name is correctly spelled and the last name as well, even
21 though the letters must be small, but it's okay. It's correct.
22 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, if we may go into private session
23 briefly, please.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it's okay.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 610 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE PARKER: And if the identification sheet could now be shown
21 to the Defence, please.
22 Do you, in due course, tender that?
23 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE PARKER: The identification sheet will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P13, under seal, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 MS. MOTOIKE:
3 Q. Witness, we've now moved into public session, so that you know.
4 Directing your attention to the date --
5 A. I understand.
6 Q. Thank you. Directing your attention to the date August --
7 12 August 2001, were you in the basement of a residence in the village
8 where you were during that time-period?
9 A. I can tell you what I know right from the beginning.
10 Q. Witness, my question to you was: Were you in the basement of a
11 residence in the village where you were? Yes or no, please.
12 A. Yes. I was in a basement.
13 Q. Without mentioning any names of any other people, can you tell us
14 why you were there in that basement?
15 A. We were there -- the entire family was there. It was a basement
16 where we felt secure from the uninterrupted shelling of the police, the
18 Q. You say "uninterrupted shelling of the police, the army." What
19 do you mean by that?
20 A. Yes. If you allow me, I'd like to express what I think.
21 Q. Witness, if you could just answer my question. When I asked you
22 about uninterrupted shelling, what do you mean by that?
23 A. Yes. It was continuous shelling by the army, and we were obliged
24 to enter into a basement where we felt safer.
25 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we move into private session,
2 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 614-624 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
8 MS. MOTOIKE:
9 Q. Witness, I'm showing you what -- 65 ter 178, page 40. It is
10 tab 2 of today's binder bearing ERN N003-0346.
11 Witness, do you see the photo before you?
12 A. Yes, and I recognise it. I know what it is about.
13 Q. Witness, if you could just tell me, if you could take the
14 stylus -- well, first of all, could you tell us what is depicted in this
16 A. I'm looking at the location where we were lying face down. This
17 is the entrance to the house of -- and I'm not going to mention the name
18 if we are in public session.
19 Q. Could you -- could you mark for us, please, using the stylus the
20 area where you were -- you say you were lying down?
21 A. Here.
22 MS. MOTOIKE: And just for the record, the witness has marked
23 with a blue line, actually, a lose rectangular form in the bottom left,
24 partly centre portion of the photograph.
25 Thank you, Mr. Usher.
1 Q. Witness, you have told us that at some point, you were at this
2 location. Did you see anything happen to your brother at that time?
3 A. After we were forced to take the direction of Ljubanci village,
4 there was shooting. We thought that they were going to kill us. We were
5 quite frightened, but in such situations you cannot actually define how
6 frightened you are, when you know that you are in the hands of savage
8 Q. Witness. Witness, could I interrupt you for a second, please?
9 If you could just listen to my question and just answer it as briefly as
10 you can.
11 MS. MOTOIKE: And, Your Honours, to be safe, perhaps we should
12 move into private session.
13 JUDGE PARKER: You tender the photograph?
14 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P17, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 627 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 MS. MOTOIKE:
25 Q. Witness, you've indicated that you were --
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
2 MS. MOTOIKE: Sorry.
3 Q. Witness, you indicated that you were ordered to walk to Ljubanci;
4 is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you arrive at some location after this walk?
7 A. Yes. I'm going to tell you now.
8 Q. If you can just wait for my question, Witness.
9 When you -- what location did you arrive at?
10 A. After we were forced to leave in the direction of Ljubanci, we
11 arrived at the exit of Ljuboten and the entrance point to Ljubanci. And
12 there is a house called Brace's house. It belongs to this person Braca.
13 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask again for the usher's assistance in
14 showing you another photograph, which is tab 5 of the binder prepared for
15 today. It's 65 ter number 199, page 132, bearing ERN N004-4571. Is also
16 photograph B from page 13 of the Court binder.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Are you tendering --
18 MS. MOTOIKE: I just caught that. Thank you, Your Honour.
20 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 201, page 60, will become Exhibit P19,
21 Your Honours.
22 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could that last exhibit be tendered
23 under seal, please.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Seal.
25 MS. MOTOIKE:
1 Q. Witness, do you see the photograph that's before you?
2 A. Yes. Yes, even though it doesn't seem to be right.
3 MS. MOTOIKE: I think we can adjust that. Thank you, Mr. Usher.
4 Thank you.
5 Q. Witness, do you recognise what is depicted in this photograph?
6 A. Yes. It is the place we were at when we were lying down on our
7 stomachs on this place. I can encircle the place where we were.
8 Q. Yes. If you could, with the assistance of the usher, take the
9 stylus and mark on the photograph, please.
10 A. [Marks].
11 MS. MOTOIKE: For the record, the witness has marked with a blue
12 circle towards the bottom right corner in the road depicted in the
14 Q. Witness, you said that you walked to this location from the house
15 where you were. What happened at this location to you?
16 A. When we arrived there, there was a hermeline which first entered
17 the village, and it had stopped there. And when we arrived there, they
18 ordered us to lie down on our stomachs, and a woman, I can mention her
19 name -- not her name, but her husband's name, she said, You haven't done
20 short work of terrorists yet? And very savagely they started to beat us.
21 I don't know how to describe it. All the policemen who were
22 there started to get on our backs to kick us and to hit us, to jump on us
23 as if we were animals. I wouldn't have done what they did to us to an
25 Q. Did you see anyone at this location?
1 A. The then minister, this person who is here.
2 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could show a video clip -- I'm sorry. Could
3 we please tender the last photograph?
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P20, Your Honours.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
7 Could we show the video clip on sanction, which is 65 ter
8 number 309, ERN V000-3494. The clip is at 6 minutes, 24 seconds to
9 6 minutes 31 seconds. It is referenced on tab 12 of today's binder.
10 Q. Witness, can you please look at the screen at the video clip that
11 is about to be displayed, please.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MS. MOTOIKE:
14 Q. Witness, did you see the video clip?
15 A. Yes, I did, and I saw also the then minister. If you want me, I
16 can circle his face.
17 Q. No, that's fine. Did you know the then minister's name?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was his name?
20 A. Ljube Boskoski.
21 MS. MOTOIKE: I'm sorry, Ms. Walpita, could you put the ending of
22 the clip back up?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we --
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, I apologise.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do not see the
3 picture on the screen.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Nor do we.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MS. MOTOIKE:
7 Q. Witness, do you still see the same video clip that was displayed
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. I know you told me that you recognise the person, the then
11 minister. Could you tell me, please, in reference to the clip that
12 you're seeing, which person that is?
13 A. May I mark the face, or you want me to indicate with my finger?
14 Q. Could you please describe what the person is wearing; maybe
15 that's easiest?
16 A. Yes. He is wearing not an army or police uniform, but a normal
17 suit without any uniform. He is in civilian clothes.
18 Q. Could you tell us what colour the person is wearing, what colour
20 A. Black. Black clothes.
21 Q. And is there anyone else in this video clip that you recognise?
22 A. Yes. The minister knows that he was a police agent, in Bit Pazar
23 My brother at the time used to sell backhoe in Bit Pazar. My brothers
24 know him, each though I personally never sold, I was -- tobacco or
25 something. I was only 13 at the time.
1 Q. This person that you're referring to, was he a police agent?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Could you tell us, in reference to the video clip, could you tell
4 us what this person in the video clip is wearing?
5 A. He's wearing a white T-shirt and you can see the colour very
6 well, because it's there. It's clear.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could tender this, please.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 21, Your Honours.
11 MS. MOTOIKE:
12 Q. Witness, you described for -- you described beatings that
13 occurred at this location that you marked earlier. Could you tell us
14 were you transferred -- transported anywhere after this?
15 JUDGE PARKER: Before you leave that area, Ms. Motoike, it is not
16 clear from what has been said whether the witness is saying that he saw
17 the accused Mr. Boskoski there that day at that scene, or whether he is
18 simply saying that he has seen the film clip later and identifies
19 Mr. Boskoski in that film clip. I think it could be important to know.
20 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour. I can clarify.
21 Q. Witness, you said that you -- you indicated that in the video
22 clip that that's Mr. Boskoski. Did you see Mr. Boskoski that day, on the
23 12th August 2001?
24 A. Yes. It is written also in the statement, but I will show you.
25 We were with T-shirts on our heads, and I would say quite stealthily I
1 managed to look from the tail of my eye because they didn't allow to us
2 see, and I saw only the face of the then minister who is being charged.
3 Even though, as I said, I had the T-shirt on my head, it prevented me
4 from seeing clearly what clothes he was wearing. But to me, it seemed
5 they were of a black colour. Whether it was really black or not, I
6 cannot ascertain, but this is how they seemed to me. But his face, I
7 could see very well and I could recognise.
8 So I may certify that I saw his face, but I cannot say that he
9 was wearing police or army uniform, but plain civilian clothes in black
10 colour, at least this is how it looked to me.
11 So I can always -- I can again say that I saw him, actually saw
12 him that day.
13 Q. Witness, where did you see Mr. Boskoski?
14 A. Here, where we were, sitting in front of the Brace's house. And
15 he appeared in front of us in front of that tank or whatever that vehicle
16 was. And he was telling the police, Well done, you have caught the
17 terrorists. Even though he knew pretty well who we were.
18 Q. And you referred to the photograph in your -- in your answer just
19 now, you referred to the photograph that's still remaining on your desk.
20 And you said "It's this place." The photograph that's on your desk
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Does that photograph -- I'm sorry, can I inquire what the
24 photograph is that's still remaining on the desk? Thank you.
25 A. This is at Brace's House.
1 MS. MOTOIKE: It's tab 5 of today's binder. 65 ter 199, page
3 If we could perhaps display this on e-court as well. And for the
4 record, I believe it has already been marked as P20. Thank you.
5 Q. Witness, is this the photograph -- do you see the photograph in
6 front of you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is this the photograph that you were referring to when you said
9 that "This is where I saw Mr. Boskoski"?
10 A. Yes, yes, that's it.
11 Q. And some point, Witness, after -- after you were beaten at this
12 location, were you transported somewhere else?
13 A. Here I lost consciousness. I fainted, because of the beating, of
14 the severe beating that was inflicted on us. And after that, I wasn't
15 aware of where I was. But when I regained consciousness, it was at the
16 police station in Mirkovci.
17 Q. And by "here," are you referring to the location still that is
18 indicated in P20, the photograph, that's before you?
19 A. Can you repeat the question, please? I'm not clear.
20 Q. You stated that you lost consciousness and you referred to a
21 location. Is the location depicted in photograph P20, that is before you
22 right now?
23 A. Yes. Yes, yes, from this place where I -- which I see on the
24 photo. After that, I wasn't aware. Yes, the place you see on this
1 And when I regained consciousness it was at the police station in
3 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, perhaps a break. Thank you.
4 JUDGE PARKER: We will need to adjourn now for the tapes to be
5 changed and we'll resume at 4.15.
6 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Motoike.
9 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Witness, before our recess, you indicated that you were taken to
11 a location called Mirkovci police station. How were you treated at
12 Mirkovci police station?
13 A. As if we were beasts. I regained consciousness, as I indicated
14 earlier, but there were times that I fainted, too, but there are
15 witnesses who will testify about how we were treated in Mirkovci police
17 Before they received us at Mirkovci police station, because the
18 commander of the police station refused to accept us there as we were, I
19 would say, 99 per cent dead, in such terrible condition, they put us in a
20 kind of a basement, not exactly a basement but it was a covered area, and
21 they threw water on us, using a hose, just to make all of us regain
22 consciousness. And after that, they put us inside the police station.
23 Q. Witness, can I ask you --
24 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we go into private session for
25 a moment, please?
1 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
2 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
25 Q. Witness, were you ever hospitalised during that weekend?
1 A. I would like to add something with regard to the Mirkovci police
3 When we were taken inside the police station, I don't know for
4 how long I was unconscious, but I would like to tell you that in this
5 police station I regained consciousness. Not that I was feeling well,
6 but I felt that I was still alive. I asked one of the policemen in the
7 room who were standing at the door there, I asked him to allow me to go
8 and drink some water. He immediately reacted harshly and he hit me once
9 again. They continued to beat us. I again asked for permission to go to
10 the toilet. They responded in the same manner. As I said earlier, we
11 were almost dead, 99 per cent dead, and a human being, a real human being
12 cannot do this to another human being. It is very difficult for me to
13 explain this.
14 Maybe we should go to a closed session.
15 Q. Witness. Witness, could I stop you there, please. You described
16 that they continued to beat us. What did they beat you with?
17 A. You know what the police carries. They beat us with rifle-butts,
18 with baseball bats, batons. They used everything to hit us. A human
19 being cannot do this kind of things to another human being.
20 Q. Thank you. My question to you earlier was: Were you ever
21 hospitalised during that weekend?
22 A. Yes. I will tell you now about the hospital.
23 Q. Witness, if you could just wait for my question. Can I ask you
24 how you were treated at the hospital?
25 A. They came and we said to them that we want to go to the hospital.
1 Usually people go to a hospital to get a treatment. Among those who
2 went, it was me --
3 Q. Witness. Witness, before you mention any names, my question to
4 you was: How did the people -- how were you treated at the hospital?
5 A. When we arrived at the hospital, we thought that we were going to
6 get a proper treatment. However, even at the hospital they beat us.
7 Even the doctors were hitting us. I asked the doctor to bring me some
8 water, and he -- I asked him in a humanly manner, Can I get some water?
9 And he replied, he said, I would not give you poison let alone water.
10 This is what I want through while in the hospital. They were
11 hitting the others as well. There were policemen inside the hospital as
12 well. I saw how they were hitting him, and because of the power of the
13 blow, that person jumped so high up to the ceiling. It is so difficult
14 for me to -- to explain in words what happened.
15 Q. Witness. Witness, could I stop you there, please. You said that
16 the doctors were hitting you and that policemen as well. What did these
17 people hit you with, if anything?
18 A. The policemen were armed at all times. They were hitting us with
19 rifle-butts while the doctor would hit us with his fists or kick us, in
20 all possible ways.
21 Q. Witness, can you tell us, do you know what hospital this was that
22 you were transported to?
23 A. The city hospital.
24 Q. And when you arrived at the hospital, were you told what kind of
25 injuries you had?
1 A. As I already said, we went there to get a treatment, but they
2 didn't ask us at all about our injuries. As I already said, we were
3 almost 99 per cent dead. Except for an infusion, nothing else they tried
4 to bring us back to life with these infusions, but -- with IVs just to be
5 able to continue and hit us.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: If I could have the usher's assistance in showing
7 to the witness 65 ter 220, and, Your Honours, I would ask permission for
8 these documents that I'm going to show the witness for them not to be
9 published to the public. It is tab 15 of today's Court binder or witness
10 binder bearing ERN N000-5177, the Macedonian version; and the English
11 version is N000-5174, N000-5180, ET.
12 JUDGE PARKER: You asked there be an order for no public
13 publication. The basis for that?
14 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, the documents actually I'm now going
15 into a few with the witness and the documents that I refer to have not
16 only the name of this particular witness, but I believe other witnesses
17 who are also under protective measures in the case.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Well, there should be no publication beyond
19 this courtroom of those documents.
20 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Witness, do you see before you a document, and if I could draw
22 your attention to the upper left corner of the Macedonian version? Do
23 you see your name indicated in that document?
24 A. I don't see my name mentioned on this document.
25 Q. Looking at the version that is in front of you now, do you see in
1 the -- well, first of all, let me ask you, do you read the Macedonian
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Do you recognise the name that's in the upper left corner of the
5 Macedonian version of this document that's being displayed in front of
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Does this document indicate a date? If I didn't ask you, is that
9 your name that appears in that corner of the document?
10 A. Yes, it's my name.
11 Q. And the bottom of this document in the left-hand corner, do you
12 see a date there of 14 November 2003?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Do you also see that this -- in the bottom right-hand corner of
15 this document, there is also a seal with a doctor's name indicated?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. If I could draw your attention to the first paragraph, perhaps
18 with the usher's assistance, the first full paragraph of that document.
19 I believe there's a date reference there, 13/8/2001. Do you see that
21 A. Yes, yes. It says on 13th August 2001 --
22 Q. Without going into details, can you tell me is your name
23 mentioned in this paragraph?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And have you had an opportunity to read this paragraph?
1 A. No. I don't think I had this document.
2 Q. Can you take a moment just to read the first two sentences of
3 this document, please?
4 A. Yes, I read this paragraph.
5 MS. MOTOIKE: And for the record, the first paragraph indicates
6 that on 13 August 2001, Witness M-017 was brought to the clinic by
7 ambulance with head injuries. At admission, the patient was conscious,
8 responsive, said he had briefly fallen unconsciousness after receiving
9 the injury.
10 Those are the first two sentences that I asked the witness to
12 Q. Witness, could you tell me, does this paragraph describe --
13 accurately describes the injuries that you had when you were taken to the
14 hospital on the date you described?
15 A. The document mentions that I was unconscious but does not mention
16 at all my injuries and the nature of my injuries. We were all injured.
17 This document says that they X-rayed me and examined me, which is a big
18 lie. What this document says is not true. There is some truth as for my
19 unconsciousness, but as for other claims that they have allegedly X-rayed
20 or examined me, that is not true. They only contributed to the
21 deterioration of my health condition.
22 MS. MOTOIKE: If this document could be tendered, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P22, Your Honours.
25 MS. MOTOIKE:
1 Q. Witness, at some point were you released from the hospital?
2 A. Yes. I was released from the hospital and taken straight to
3 prison. Actually, it was necessary for me to spend at least one month,
4 not to say three months because of my injuries; however, they took me
5 from the hospital straight to the Sutka prison, although I did not
6 deserve to go there.
7 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, my mistake, I would like that last
8 exhibit, P22, to be admitted under seal. I apologise.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Can it be clear that it's only the one page that
10 you are seeking to tender?
11 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes, Your Honour. The single page that we showed
12 the witness. Thank you.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 MS. MOTOIKE:
15 Q. At Sutka prison, Witness, how were you treated?
16 A. Yes, personally, I cannot claim here things that I did not
17 experience. Only one policeman or people working in the prison hit me
18 just once and ordered me to go to my room. I could hardly stand on my
19 feet there. Actually, I had to walk on my fours to get there. I could
20 hardly stand on my feet. There were people there who were beaten as
21 well, but they will testify for themselves. As for me personally, this
22 person only hit me once. The others will tell you about their own
23 experience in the prison.
24 Q. And you said that you were in Sutka prison for how long?
25 A. How long? Four months. I spent four months in Sutka prison.
1 Q. At some point then, you were released. Do you know why you were
2 released from prison?
3 A. Why I was released from prison?
4 Q. Yes, you.
5 A. Well, when I was released from prison, the former president of
6 the state, Boris Trajkovski issued a document that amnestied us. Calling
7 us terrorists and amnestied as terrorists, although we were not
8 terrorists. This is what the others called us.
9 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you another document, please.
10 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could display 65 ter 155. It is tab 13 of
11 today's binder bearing ERN N000-9720, N000-9721. The Macedonian version
12 bears N000-9722 to N000-9723.
13 Q. Witness, the document that is displayed in front of you, the
14 Macedonian version, drawing your attention to the -- what appears to be
15 the second full paragraph. Do you see your name mentioned in this
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And the top of this document is entitled "Official Note
19 Number 1131." Do you see that at the top in the middle?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the date indicated on this document in the upper left corner
22 is 12 August 2001; do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And this document has, at the very top, language indicating that
25 it is from the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Macedonia; do
1 you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on the second page, which is N000-9721, the Macedonian
4 version -- oh, I'm sorry, N000-9723 of the Macedonian version, N000-9721
5 of the English version. Could we go to the second page, please?
6 Witness, do you see your name indicated on this page and your
7 date of birth?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And if I could draw your attention - if we could go back to the
10 first page, please, of both versions. If I could draw your attention to
11 the last part of the page before the Roman numeral II, that last
12 paragraph before the Roman numeral II on the Macedonian version. Do you
13 see that? Starting with: "According to."
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. And this paragraph says:
16 "According to statements of people from the security forces who
17 handed over the above-mentioned persons, together with weapons and
18 ammunition, to me these persons were active with fire-arms against the
19 security forces in the zone of military activities from different houses
20 and directions in Ljuboten village."
21 Do you see that? Is that an accurate statement?
22 A. This is absolutely incorrect.
23 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could tender that document, please, under
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We would like to object,
2 Your Honours. The witness was shown a document. We don't know whether
3 the witness recognises the document -- this document. He -- it has not
4 been shown to the witness in a proper manner. The witness was asked
5 about a content of a document. The Prosecutor plans to call other
6 witnesses and the authors of this document, and I think that that would
7 be the right time to tender this document. Then -- only then we can talk
8 about this document.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Do you say that this is not an authentic document
10 of the Ministry of Interior? Is that your proposition?
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do not speak
12 about the authenticity of the document. We simply don't know what is the
13 position of the Prosecution, because they -- do they claim that this is a
14 fake document, that the content is fake? We do not know what is the
15 position of the Prosecution. The witness did not recognise. Actually,
16 he was not even asked to say whether he has ever -- has seen this
17 document before.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Well, he would probably not ever have seen this
19 document before, because it's not a document that is his or would be
20 shown to him, is it?
21 The point, as I would understand it, of the Prosecution in
22 seeking to tender an apparently authentic ministry document is that it
23 gives some confirmation of some parts of the account being given by this
24 witness; namely, that on that date, he, with a number of other people
25 whom seem to be the people he has identified, were taken into custody and
1 driven to Skopje, and, as I understand it, on that basis that this is put
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in line with the
4 decision you made regarding the documents, I understood that the best
5 manner, the most proper manner to document -- to show a document to the
6 witness is that the document that he can recognise. As far as we can
7 understand, according to the witnesses proposed for the next week, we
8 have the author of this document and we think that would be the right
9 moment and the proper manner to have this document shown because -- and
10 to be tendered in -- in evidence.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 MS. Motoike.
13 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 As the Chamber has heard, the witness can establish the relevance
15 and probative value of this document. He is mentioned in this document.
16 It refers to statements or at least infers that statements were
17 gathered -- or information was gathered from him or regarding him. So he
18 certainly could speak to whether or not the contents of this document are
20 JUDGE PARKER: How do you say it becomes admissible?
21 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, it's my understanding that the -- both
22 Defence counsel have not disputed the authenticity of the document and,
23 again, the document is relevant with respect to this witness because
24 he -- he is mentioned in this document. It contribute -- it refers to
25 conduct or activities that this witness supposedly participated in, and
1 this witness is denying that that occurred. So its relevant and
2 probative value is clear, with this witness's testimony that this
3 statement attributed to his conduct and activities is not true.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE PARKER: The document will be received, Ms. Residovic.
6 There being no dispute as to its authenticity, the document is clearly
7 dealing with facts which are directly the subject of this witness's
8 evidence and is -- he is named in it, in a context consistent with his
10 In that respect, it offers some support of his evidence. It also
11 contradicts his evidence in other material represents as he acknowledges,
12 and which version of that might prove to be true will depend on the
13 evidence of other witnesses.
14 So this document is not being admitted that on the basis of what
15 is written there is true. It doesn't establish that one way or the
16 other, but it is it an official record about what happened to this
17 document -- this witness, so that is one of the matters that will be
18 taken into account as the Chamber comes to consider what actually did
19 happen on that day.
20 It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P23, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Under seal?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. If we could show the witness the next
25 document in line at tab 14 of the witness binders provided today. It's
1 65 ter 148, bearing ERN, Macedonian version N000-7278. The English
2 version is the same N000-7278-ET.
3 Q. Witness, drawing your attention to what looks to be the second
4 full paragraph of this document that begins with a person's name; do you
5 see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in that paragraph, do you see your name?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. And in the top of this document it says it is the Official Note
10 number 535. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. It also refers as a subject to an official conversation carried
13 out in the subject line here, right below the number 535. It indicates
14 that subject is an official conversation carried out with the persons
15 taken over from the village of Ljuboten?
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the date on the top in the corner -- left corner of the
19 document is 13 August 2001; do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And at the very top of the document, it indicates that is the MOI
22 of the Republic of Macedonia; do you see that?
23 A. Yes, I can see that.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, there appears to be the a typo in the
25 English version of the document that I see here. The date is indicated
1 as 12 August 2001, and I believe looking at the Macedonian version which
2 is the original version is should read 13/8/2001, for the record.
3 Q. Drawing your attention, Witness, to the second -- what looks to
4 be actually the third full paragraph --
5 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, Ms. Motoike, when you say the original
6 is 13, do you mean that when you look at the original it shows at the top
7 of the document the date 13 August, but in the first paragraph of the
8 body of the document it shows the date 12 August?
9 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes, Your Honour. Sorry, thank you. For
10 clarification, I'm referring to the very top left corner that indicates
11 on the Macedonian version 13/8/2001. However, in the English version in
12 the top left-hand corner of the English version, it indicates a date of
13 12 August 2001.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Well, in my English version, it shows 13, if
15 that's any help.
16 MS. MOTOIKE: Perhaps we're operating on better hard copies than
17 the e-court copies. Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. Witness, drawing your attention to the third full paragraph of
19 this document, and if I could just highlight a particular sentence in
20 this document and read it to you. It says that:
21 "The aforementioned stated that they noticed several terrorists
22 who fought with their gun -- with guns in their hands, but allegedly they
23 themselves -- they have not participated in the clashes but they wanted
24 to escape from the village or some of them wanted to surrender to the
25 security forces because they had not taken part in the fights."
1 Is that a true statement?
2 A. It is not correct, because here it says that we were trying to
3 escape, and we were in the basement. They came and took us from the
4 basement. This is a big lie. They want to represent us as a threat, as
5 someone who can do them something bad. And that is not what happened.
6 We were in the basement, and they came and took us from the
7 basement. Here it says that we were fighting. If there was fighting
8 between us and them, then there would have been wounded people. Were
9 there any wounded people? Of course there were not.
10 Q. Witness, could I stop you there, please. So there is a reference
11 here to terrorists who had been fighting with weapons on their hands.
12 Is that statement true?
13 A. No, not at all. This is what I'm saying. It's not true at all.
14 They should prove it, if they found some arms on us. I didn't have any
15 weapon. If I did have a weapon, I would have certainly shot and used the
16 weapon and wounded maybe some policemen.
17 Q. Witness, if I could just draw your attention to the -- what
18 appears to the fourth paragraph of this same document. It says that:
19 "In connection to the weapons and ammunition that was found with
20 them during their arrest, they stated that they had not used them. The
21 following weapons and ammunition was found at the place where these
22 persons were found and arrested."
23 And it lists an AP automatic rifle, an AP Chinese production with
24 a particular number.
25 Is that particular statement true?
1 A. Not at all. Not at all.
2 Q. Witness, if I could ask you: Do you recall making any
3 statements -- any of the statements -- well, let me ask you this first.
4 It indicates at the very top -- if we could go to the very top
5 left corner of the document. It indicates that it's submitted by a
6 person who is named Toskovski Blagoja; do you see that?
7 A. Yes, yes, I do.
8 Q. Do you recall having any conversation with this particular person
9 at that time?
10 A. I cannot say that I met someone. Even though, as I told you,
11 when we were in hospital, they asked -- forced us to sign, and I did
12 sign, but as to what document I signed, they know better. They forced me
13 to accept to sign, and I did put my signature. They know very well in
14 what condition. I was under duress, you know, and I don't know what I
15 have signed.
16 Q. Okay. Witness, before we get into that topic, could we --
17 MS. MOTOIKE: Could I ask the Chamber, please, to tender that
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence
21 understood well your previous decision, and we will act in accordance
22 with that decision, but bearing in mind that a similar document was shown
23 as the previous one, for the record we want to give the identical
24 objections, aware that you will be -- that you will decide in the
25 identical manner.
1 We are doing this, Your Honours, because we do not know at all
2 what is the position of the Prosecution about the content of this
3 document. They will call the author of the document. We would like to
4 know whether the Prosecution thinks that this document is a false one, so
5 we could prepare for the cross-examination of their own witness. That is
6 the reason why we are repeating the objections that we had before.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, and your position is fully
9 understood. But could I suggest that you can assume that the
10 Prosecution, like the witness, is taking the position that much of the
11 contents of this document and the previous one do not accurately record
12 what actually occurred. And you can, I think, safely proceed on that
13 basis in dealing with your cross-examination.
14 That would be my reading of the position, Ms. Motoike, if I'm
15 misled Ms. Residovic.
16 MS. MOTOIKE: No, thank you, Your Honour. And, additionally, if
17 we could ask that -- if the Chamber is going to admit it, that it be
18 admitted under seal.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since we understood
20 that there are two English translations, we would be asked to be told
21 which translation would be accepted; the translation that you have, or
22 the translation in the e-court.
23 JUDGE PARKER: We will be dealing with the translation in English
24 which accords with the original; that is, the one that shows the date
25 13 August 2001 in the heading at the top left of the page.
1 MS. MOTOIKE: And, Your Honours, just to assist Defence, my case
2 manager has indicated that we are in the process of uploading into
3 e-court the version that the Chamber has in hard copy.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Now the document will be received under seal.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P24, under seal, Your Honours.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
7 If we could move on and show the witness 65 ter 225, which is
8 tab 16 of the binders provided today. This document bears Macedonian
9 version ERN N000-1248 through N000-1250.
10 Q. Witness, there's a document presently before you. If I can draw
11 your attention to the second paragraph, which falls right underneath the
12 word "decision." Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Does that second paragraph of the first page, does that second
15 paragraph have -- indicate your name?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And in this document at the top there, I have already mentioned
18 it, but for the record, does that middle word under the first paragraph
19 say "decision"?
20 A. It doesn't say "decision."
21 Q. I'm sorry --
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. It does say "decision"?
24 A. I don't see the word "decision." It -- it says what is given by
25 the -- what is written by the hospital, like a medical record.
1 Q. I'm asking -- I'm sorry, I think you're referring to the first
2 paragraph. The word right underneath the first paragraph, what is
3 that word?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may assist, I think that the
5 witness is looking at the previous document. He should be told to look
6 at the document that is on the screen.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
8 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, I believe the document is displayed before you on the
10 screens. Do you see it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in -- underneath the first full paragraph -- well, I think we
13 need to ask this again. I apologise. The second --
14 A. Yes, yes, now I see it. It says "decision."
15 Q. And does it say your name there in the second full paragraph?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we could change -- switch to the second page
18 of the document in both versions, please. Thank you.
19 Q. Witness, do you see at the bottom a signature -- the bottom of
20 the second page there, does it say "public prosecutor"?
21 MS. MOTOIKE: I apologise, Your Honour, I see Mr. Apostolski.
22 JUDGE PARKER: We're waiting for the answer.
23 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for
1 interrupting, but comparing the translation in the Macedonian version, I
2 think the translation is not very well. I think it is -- this is not a
3 decision Macedonian but a resolution. The very word says "reshenie," so
4 reshenie, a resolution, and a decision are not the same thing, because
5 the courts make various decisions and one of the types of decisions is
6 the resolution. That's what I wanted to warn about.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Apostolski.
8 I'm sure we will learn more about some of these things as the
9 case progresses, but at the moment we have what is an official
10 translation with the word "decision." If you think it is material to
11 your case, you might take it up with the translation service to see
12 whether some correction should be made to the official translation. I'm
13 not sure that any particular significance attaches to the difference
14 between resolution and decision at this point, but that will be a matter
15 for you to judge.
16 Thank you.
17 Yes, Ms. Motoike.
18 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
19 Q. Witness, drawing your attention to the signature line that is
20 right above the word "note," towards the bottom of the second page of
21 this document. Do you see that it says "juvenile court judge"?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the date right above that juvenile court judge indication, is
24 that date 14 August 2001?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we could change to the first page, please.
2 Q. And, Witness, in that paragraph that is directly under the word
3 "decision," actually the second paragraph under the word "decision," do
4 you see that it says:
5 "Is to be remanded in custody for 30 days from 11.30 hours on
6 14 August 2001 to 11.30 hours on 13 September 2001 because there are
7 legal grounds to remand him in custody pursuant to Article 184, paragraph
8 1." And then it goes on to say other items.
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you recall -- if you can, do you recall that you were
12 remanned in custody for 30 days at that time?
13 A. Can you please be more explicit about that?
14 Q. Certainly. Sorry, I used "remanded."
15 Were you in custody during that time-period which is indicated at
16 14 August 2001 until 13th September 2001?
17 A. Yes, I was in custody.
18 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may this document please be tendered
19 under seal.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P25, under seal, Your Honours.
22 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could show another document next in line in
23 the witness binder, tab 17, 65 ter 12.2, bearing ERN N000-4410,
24 N000-4418, which is the Macedonian version, and the English translation
25 bears the same number with ET at the end.
1 Q. Witness, do you see this document? And if I can draw your
2 attention -- if I can draw your attention to the --
3 MS. MOTOIKE: I'm sorry, Mr. Usher, could we go to page 3 of the
4 document in both versions.
5 Q. Witness, you have a hard copy in front of you. Can you tell me
6 on page 3, if I can draw your attention to page 3, can you tell me in the
7 first full paragraph, under Roman number II, if that is your name
8 indicated in that paragraph?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we could go to page 1 of the document,
11 please, in both versions.
12 Q. And, Witness, do you see the first page at the top left corner,
13 it says "Public Prosecutor's Office"?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And do you see that in the middle, towards of top of this
16 document, on the first page, it says:
17 "To the lower court Skopje II, Skopje."
18 On the first page of the document right underneath the date,
19 which is indicated. Do you see that it says:
20 "To the lower court, Skopje II"?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you see the date in the left-hand corner, upper corner?
23 It says 26th September, 2001.
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And do you see underneath Roman numeral I, do you see that it
1 says "indictment" there?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And have you seen this document previously, Witness?
4 A. Yes, we were indicted. We had this charge against us.
5 Q. Can I draw your attention to page 3 of your hard copy.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: And, Mr. Usher, if we could go to page 3 on both
7 versions on the screens as well.
8 Q. Drawing your attention to the second full paragraph, it says:
9 "Between 0800 and 1.200 on 12 August 2001, in the village of
10 Ljuboten, Skopje, they participated in armed conflict as combatants
11 against the Republic of Macedonia in a way that during intensive military
12 actions, they acted against the security forces of the Republic of
13 Macedonia stationed in the vicinity of the village with infantry
14 fire-arms and ammunition up to the moment when they were forced to
15 retreat, at which point they abandoned their fighting positions and threw
16 away their weapons and equipment, with the aim of avoiding
17 responsibility. But at that moment, they were intercepted by the
18 security forces of the Republic of Macedonia who had begun to clear the
19 area, during which time military actions intensified, and they were
20 arrested and part of the weapons and equipment were seized from them."
21 Do you see that paragraph?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Is that a -- is that a true statement in that paragraph?
24 A. Far from it. Far from it.
25 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may this be tendered under seal,
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P26, under seal, Your Honours.
4 MS. MOTOIKE: If we can go to the exhibit next in line in the
5 witness binder at tab 18, 65 ter 12.5, bearing ERN in the Macedonian
6 version N000-4423, N000-4425. And the English version bears the same ERN
7 with ET at the end.
8 Q. Witness, I'd like to draw your attention to the second full
9 paragraph of the first page of this document before you. Do you see that
10 your name -- is your name mentioned in that paragraph?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And if we could go to the word right above the paragraph that
13 you've indicated your name is in, does that word say "ruling"?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we could go to -- Mr. Usher, with your
16 assistance - page 3, which is the last page of each of the versions.
17 Q. Witness, in the hard copy, are you looking at the last page of
18 the document? And drawing your attention to the --
19 A. Yes, yes. Yes. I can't see it very well here. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And just above -- in this paragraph that's indicated on this
21 page, does it indicate that it is from the deputy head of the court, the
23 MS. MOTOIKE: Actually, I'm sorry, Mr. Usher. Could we go to the
24 page before -- in the Macedonian version, could we go to the page that
25 would be N000-4425, which I believe is page 2 of the Macedonian version.
1 I apologise. Could we scroll to the bottom, please.
2 Q. Witness, looking at the second page of the Macedonian version, do
3 you see the very bottom of that page? Does it indicate that there's a
4 stamp with a deputy head of the court, the council? Do you see that?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. Witness, have you seen this document previously?
7 A. In the prison, when they extended the detention that we received
8 such papers. But I can tell you that they did what they wanted with
9 these documents because we were in their hands.
10 For me, this is not a proper document, even though it has a seal,
11 because they have written in it whatever they wanted.
12 MS. MOTOIKE: Okay. If we could go to the first page of the
13 document in both versions.
14 Q. And, Witness, I will direct your attention to the first page in
15 it's hard copy?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In the paragraph under ruling, the first sentence, it reads:
18 "The motion of the investigating judge of the lower court Skopje
19 II, Skopje KI number 436/01 of 11 September 2001 for the continuation of
20 custody for the accused." And it names, among others, you there.
21 Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, my name is correct.
23 Q. And it indicates in that same paragraph that that motion is
24 granted, at the very last words; do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may this be tendered under seal,
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P27, under seal, Your Honours.
5 MS. MOTOIKE: Going to the document that is next in line in the
6 witness binder, tab 22, which is 65 ter 10.15, bears ERN 0463-8814. The
7 English version is ET 0463-8814, 0463-8814.
8 Q. Witness, you have the hard copy of the this document in front of
9 you. In the Macedonian version, do you see at number 7 on the first --
10 on the only page of this document, do you see number 7? Is that your
11 name indicated there?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And in the middle, in bold of this document, does it say
14 particular report and then following that, does it say:
15 "... related to our criminal charges submitted under the herein
16 above mentioned number and against the following persons"?
17 A. Yes, yes, I see it.
18 Q. At the very top of the document, if we could scroll up there,
19 please. In the left-hand corner at the top, does it say:
20 "Ministry of Interior, OVR-OOR, Cair"?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. And is the date, right underneath that, "27 August 2001"?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. And do you see right underneath "Skopje" towards the right of the
25 document on that page, it says to basic --
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. It says to basic public prosecutor, Skopje?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And if I can direct your attention to the paragraph that follows
5 the numbers, that number 10 on the document?
6 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could scroll down, Mr. Usher, please.
7 Q. And that paragraph states:
8 "Attached to this report are an expert testimony (analysis) of
9 fire-arm 10.26-30027/1 dated 16/08/2001 prepared by MOI of RM Sector for
10 Criminal Techniques and a photo album which are in relation to the
11 fire-arm seized of the above mentioned persons from the village of
12 Ljuboten who were apprehended under charges they committed criminal act
13 of terrorism."
14 Do you see that paragraph?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Is that statement true, with respect to the mention of the
17 fire-arms seized?
18 A. Not at all. Not at all. It's not true at all.
19 Q. Is with respect to the charges that they committed the criminal
20 act of terrorism; is that true?
21 A. No, not at all. I told you even earlier that if we were
22 terrorists, then they wouldn't be able to imprison me but we were unarmed
23 and so they did what they wanted.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: If that document may be tendered, Your Honours,
25 under seal?
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P28, under seal, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Ms. Motoike, we must have the second
4 break at this point, and we will resume at 6.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Motoike.
8 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Witness, earlier in your testimony, you referred to signing a
10 document at the hospital. It was page 46 of the transcript, lines 9
11 through 14. If I could show you a document, 65 ter 10.40, which is
12 tab 23 of the binder provided today. The document bears ERN in
13 Macedonian 0463-8853 through 0463-8856, and the English version is ET
14 0463-8853 - 0463-8856.
15 Witness, you have a hard copy of the document in front of you.
16 Do you see -- if we could go to page 2 of the Macedonian and English
17 versions, please.
18 In the hard copy that is before you, do you see a signature at
19 the very bottom of that page?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you also see a signature on page 3 of the same document?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And on page 4 of the document, at the very bottom after the
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you recognise any of the signatures on this page -- these
3 A. The third page, as I said earlier, they forced me to sign this
4 document. On the third page, it is my signature; while on the fourth and
5 the second, it's not my signature.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: If we can look at page 1, please, of both
7 documents. Actually, the Macedonian version, if we could go -- thank
9 Q. Witness, you have before you the hard copy. You are looking at
10 page 1. Can I direct your attention to the name that appears right after
11 the date on that document. Is that your name?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And is the date of this document -- is the date indicated as
14 15 August 2001 on this first page?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. The date is the one you mentioned.
16 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we could turn to page 2, please, on both
18 Q. And in the first -- actually, the first paragraph after the
19 indented paragraph, that first sentence that begins with the
20 interrogation. It states that:
21 "The interrogation of the" - and I won't say that person -
22 "started at 1340-hours in the premises of the General City Hospital
23 Skopje where the person was admitted."
24 Does that say that?
25 A. Yes, it does.
1 Q. And do you recall having a conversation at the General City
2 Hospital --
3 A. As I said earlier, I only signed a document. I did not speak to
4 anyone at any time. I only signed a document under duress. It was not
5 out of my free will.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we go to the last page of the document
7 again, please.
8 Q. Witness, drawing your attention to very bottom of this last page
9 on the right bottom corner, it says "the juvenile judge."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in the left there, it says "court clerk," and then next to
13 that, it says "Defence attorney."
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then drawing your attention to -- if we could go to page 4,
17 which I believe is in both versions.
18 Witness, you have in front of you a hard copy of the Macedonian
19 version, the page 4 of the English translation, I believe, is up on the
20 screen. Could you look at the hard copy, please, and drawing your
21 attention to this first paragraph. Do you see the first paragraph on
22 that page?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, for a brief moment, may we go into
25 private session?
1 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
2 [Private session]
11 Page 668 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
17 MS. MOTOIKE:
18 Q. Witness, do you know whether or not this document that is before
19 you is the same document that you say you were forced to sign?
20 A. As I already said earlier, I do not know what document I signed
21 because I was not conscious. I cannot lie here and say, Yes, this is the
22 document --
23 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we tender that, please, under
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P29, under seal, Your Honours.
3 MS. MOTOIKE: Moving on next in line, tab 24 of the witness
4 binder, 65 ter 10.28. If we could please show the witness that document
5 bearing ERN N -- bearing ERN Macedonian version 0463-8827, and the
6 English translation is ET N046-38827, but that might be a mistake.
7 Q. Witness, do you see this document?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Drawing your attention to the bottom left corner of this
10 document, do you see a signature there?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Is that your signature?
13 A. No, it's not my signature.
14 Q. Is that your name that's signed there?
15 A. Yes, the name is mine, but the signature is not.
16 Q. Is this document -- if we could go up to the upper left corner.
17 Does this document say, Minister of the Interior OVR-OOR Cair, on the top
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And this document dated 12 August 2001?
21 A. As I said earlier, maybe this was not the correct date. Maybe
22 the document was created at a later date, referred -- referring to that
23 date. As I said, I was in a proper condition only a month later.
24 Q. Witness. Witness, I'm only asking you whether or not you see
25 that this document in the upper left-hand corner is dated 12 August,
1 2001; do you see that?
2 A. Yes, yes, I can see the date.
3 Q. Do you also see that in the middle here of the document in bold,
4 it says:
5 "Certificate on temporary seized possessions."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And in the next paragraph following that bolded -- those bolded
9 word, it says -- at the very ending of that sentence, it says:
10 "Seize the following possessions in temporary custody."
11 And then it names at (1):
12 "10 bullets for AP (automatic rifle, caliber 7,62).
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is that paragraph, including that number, that point at that
16 number 1, is that true?
17 A. No, far from the truth.
18 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, I would ask that this be tendered,
19 please, under seal.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P30, under seal, Your Honours.
22 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could show the witness next in line tab 25,
23 it's a document which is 65 ter 10.12, bearing Macedonian version ERN
24 0463-8808, 0463-8810; English version is the same numbers with ET in
25 front of it.
1 Q. Witness, you have the hard copy Macedonian version in front of
2 you. If I can just draw your attention to page 2, number 7. Is that
3 your name indicated there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And if we could go to page 1.
6 And, Witness, looking at the hard copy, page 1. In the upper
7 left-hand corner, do you see the words "Republic of Macedonia, Ministry
8 of Interior"?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is the date right below that, 13 August, 2001, is that
11 indicated on the document?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And does it say, "To: Basic public prosecutor Skopje," in the
14 bolded words below the date?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And does it also say in bolded words in the centre of the
17 document, "criminal charges"?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we could go to the very last page of the
21 Q. Witness, on the last page, at the very bottom, do you see that it
22 says, "head officer of OVR Cair"?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You have suggested to us a while
1 ago to address the CLSS regarding the translations. I would just like to
2 say that we have noted several of the same documents that are translated
3 differently, a decision as a ruling and the ruling as a decision. We can
4 see a document whereby they said that that is the criminal charges, that
5 is a completely different document. In importance of the criminal
6 procedure, this should be a criminal report. Just for the transcript, I
7 would like to draw the attention to those facts, and we will address the
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 MS. MOTOIKE:
12 Q. Witness, I had asked you a question as to whether or not at the
13 bottom of this document, in the left, do you see it says "head officer of
14 OVR Cair"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the top paragraph -- I'm sorry, we have both English versions
17 published right now.
18 A. It's okay. I have the Macedonian before me.
19 Q. On the last page, there is a paragraph that starts with:
20 "The afore-identified persons."
21 Do you see that paragraph?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that paragraph says:
24 "The afore-identified persons continued with these operations
25 until 12.00 a.m. when they deserted their combat positions, and they left
1 their fire-arm and equipment. Actually, they threw away part of the
2 equipment. All these they did it in order to avoid liability for the
3 terrorist activities they had committed."
4 Is that an accurate statement?
5 A. No, not at all. How can they write something like this? They
6 should be ashamed. I was a 13-year-old.
7 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we tender this exhibit, please,
8 under seal.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P31 under seal, Your Honours.
11 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Motoike.
14 Now, is it -- Ms. Residovic, do you wish to cross-examine?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very
17 I would ask just whether we are in an open or a private session?
18 JUDGE PARKER: We're in open.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. M-017. I am Edina Residovic
22 and together with my colleague Guenael Mettraux, I'm defending
23 Mr. Ljube Boskoski.
24 I will ask you, Mr. M-017, for a better understanding of the
25 question that I am about to ask and for the answer -- your answer to that
1 question to wait for a while for my question to be interpreted and only
2 then to give your answer, so the interpreters would have the time to
3 interpret both the question and the answer and so Their Honours and the
4 colleagues in the courtroom could understand.
5 Did you understand me, Mr. M-017?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, I would like to ask that we
8 move into a closed session.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
10 [Private session]
11 Page 676 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, just for the sake of
25 clarification, could we spend a few more minutes in a closed session.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
2 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
16 Q. Your family was one of farmers, is that correct, of cattle
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. No one was employed in a public institution; is that correct?
20 A. No, no one.
21 Q. You lived modestly. One could even say that life was quite
22 difficult. Is that correct?
23 A. Yeah, that's correct.
24 Q. Before 2001, you were never summoned to a court or a police
25 station; is that correct?
1 A. Who would summon me?
2 Q. I'm asking you whether it is correct that you have never been
4 A. We never had a problem before 2001.
5 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-017, that after the events you have given
6 statements many times to the press and the international organisations?
7 Is that correct?
8 A. I haven't given any statements to the journalists, but I may have
9 given a statement to some foreign organisation.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
11 witness is shown ID 33, page 1D 0402 and 1D 0404.
12 So have I stated correctly, 1D 33, page 1D 0402, 1D 0404.
13 Q. You have stated that you may have given statements to some
14 foreigners, to some international organisations; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. On the 5th of January, 2002, you have given a statement to the
17 OSCE; is that correct?
18 A. You just read out to me what you want, and then I will say if
19 it's correct. I told you earlier maybe I have, but first you have to
20 read out to me what the contents of my supposed statement.
21 Q. You say here that on the 5th of January, 2002, you have had an
22 interview with Elvara Balastrone [phoen]. He's had an interview with
23 you. I could not read it now because we are in a public session now.
24 But do you remember that you have given an international organisation a
1 A. I don't remember, but as I said, I would kindly ask you to read
2 it to me, and then I can say whether it's true or not.
3 Q. Did you give a statement to the International Committee of the
4 Red Cross?
5 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.
6 Q. Mr. 017, you have given many statements to the investigator of
7 the ICTY; is that correct?
8 A. Can you please repeat the question?
9 Q. You have given statements many times to the investigators of the
10 Prosecutor of the ICTY; is that correct?
11 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. The first statement was given by you on the 30th of March, 2003;
13 is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
16 witness is shown a document without it being shown to the public, 65 ter
17 number 1D 26, page 1D 0315; Macedonian number page 1D 0321.
18 Q. Tell me, please, do you recognise your signature in this
20 A. I don't see my signature here.
21 Q. In the English text?
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please show the witness the
23 page ID 316.
24 A. Yes. Now, yes.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show the witness
1 page 1D 0320; Macedonian version 0325?
2 Q. Do you see here in the English text and recognise your signature?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Below the first paragraph, on the top of the English text, your
5 name is written; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Was it you who wrote this name?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you were interviewed by the ICTY investigator, you would
10 sign every page then; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct, I think.
12 Q. You do not speak the English language; is that correct?
13 A. No.
14 Q. But whenever you would be giving a statement, you had an
15 interpreter for the Albanian language; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After having the statement translated to you, you have stated
18 that everything you said in that statement was correct and that
19 corresponds to the best of your recollection about that event; is that
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. You have given the next statement to the Prosecutor on the
23 12th of August, 2003; is that correct?
24 A. I think so. You may read the statement back to me, and then I
25 can tell you. You're just asking me whether I signed, but I would like
1 to know what is it in this statement, so that I know that it's me who has
2 given it and not just ask me whether I gave a statement.
3 Q. I will show you immediately the document 1D 27, page 1D 0328;
4 Macedonian 1D 0339.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I ask that this document is
6 also not shown to the public.
7 Q. Do you then recognise your signature on this page of the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And this statement of the 12th of August was also signed on every
11 page; is that correct?
12 A. It is.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask now that the witness
14 is shown the document 1D 28, page 0349; and Macedonian 1D 0354.
15 Q. This is a document which states that you have given an interview
16 also on the 25th of October, 2003, to the investigator of the Prosecutor
17 of the ICTY. Is it correct that on that date, you have also given a
18 statement to the Prosecutor's office?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Is your signature found on this document as well?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask now that the
23 witness is shown the document number 1D 29, page 1D 0359. And I ask that
24 this document is also not available to the public.
25 Have you signed this document, sir? I apologise, I did not
1 indicate the number of the Macedonian page, but it is already displayed
2 on the screen.
3 Tell me, have you, on the 23rd of April this year, so it means
4 2007, also given certain additions and corrections to your previous
5 statements to the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recognise your signature on this document as well?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is it correct, sir, that after the arrival to The Hague on the
10 6th of May, 2007, in the preparations for your today's testimony by the
11 Prosecutor, that the Prosecutor has shown you certain documents and that
12 also after that, you made certain comments? Is that correct?
13 A. Can you please repeat the question, because I'm not clear?
14 Q. When you arrived to The Hague, is it correct that the Prosecutor
15 has shown you certain documents, and that you then also signed a document
16 with comments that you made when the Prosecutor was showing you those
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask that the witness is
20 shown the document 1D 41, and page 1D 0507 and 1D 0509.
21 Q. So I would ask the witness to just tell me whether that is the
22 document that I have mentioned and have you signed this document?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just
25 finished authenticating the prior statements of this witness. Before I
1 start the examination regarding certain questions, maybe it would be time
2 to adjourn.
3 JUDGE PARKER: I think that is a convenient time, Ms. Residovic.
4 We will resume tomorrow morning -- oh, Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: Very sorry for the interruption.
6 I'd like to bring something to the attention of the Trial Chamber
7 that the Prosecution has already discussed with Defence counsel.
8 Obviously, the cross -- excuse me, the direct examination of this
9 witness took a bit longer than the Prosecution expected. Defence counsel
10 have told me that they believe they will need until -- they will need the
11 full day tomorrow to complete their cross-examination of this witness.
12 Therefore, with your leave, I will not bring the following
13 witness who was scheduled. I believe that was M-012. We will, with your
14 leave, put that witness over until next week.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. The Chamber would indicate that there will
17 be no witness called tomorrow at the end of the evidence of this witness,
18 and we would encourage both Defence counsel to look carefully at their
19 cross-examination and their coordination to ensure that cross-examination
20 finishes tomorrow.
21 Thank you very much.
22 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow morning.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of May,
1 2007, at 9.00 a.m.