1 Tuesday, 15 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 May I remind you, sir, that the affirmation you made at the
8 beginning of your evidence still applies.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS M-037 [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE PARKER: There seems to be a question whether translation is
13 reaching the witness.
14 All is well.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear now.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much Your Honour.
18 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic [Continued]
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, M-037.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. I'm sure you remember that we ended up yesterday with my question
22 and your answer about you having relevant information concerning the
23 presence of members of the NLA in Ljuboten and using Ljuboten for support
24 to the NLA.
25 Would that be a brief summary of what it was we were saying at the
1 end of the day yesterday?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This relevant information, reliable information, as far as you're
4 concerned, particularly noted that during the course of the night, there
5 were transports through the village of Ljuboten; and from the direction of
6 Ljuboten and towards the positions of the army and the police, gunshots
7 were heard. Is that the information that you had as well?
8 A. You said in the course of the night. What night are you referring
10 Q. Yesterday, at the end of the day, we were talking about a
11 preceding period that indicated the situation in your area. My question
12 refers to a preceding period in which you obtained certain information.
13 Did you receive this kind of information from your colleagues, the kind
14 that I just referred to?
15 A. Are we in a closed session?
16 Q. No. At this point in time, we're still in public session. If
17 you're going to mention any name, I would like to move into closed
19 A. No. I will not be mentioning any names. I will just say that is
20 correct what you said. I don't know exactly what was the period when we
21 had an ambush with our colleagues for discovering such people.
22 Q. After the explosion of a mine on the 10th of August, 2001, which
23 caused the death of eight soldiers of the army of the Republic of
24 Macedonia and several of them were injured, did you receive information to
25 the effect that some armed persons entered the village?
1 A. I think that four persons died and four were severely injured, if
2 I'm not mistaken. As I already mentioned, we had valid information that
3 inside the village there is a terrorist group and that there is a field
4 hospital built there, that gave us the right to think that certain combat
5 actions are being prepared there.
6 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask for private session, please.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before that, Your Honours, because
8 during my following questions, I think I'd like to show the witness some
9 documents. I would like to give you these files with these prepared
10 questions through the assistance of the usher, and at the same time I
11 would like to inform the Honourable Trial Chamber that after the direct
12 examination by the Prosecutor, yesterday, we managed to find a few
13 documents that we considered to be relevant for this witness.
14 We uploaded these documents but I'm not sure that they are in the
15 e-court system. Among these documents is a document from the Prosecutor's
16 65 ter document 13, and the Prosecutor did not have this document
17 translated. However, that document is included in the folder that I have
18 provided to you.
19 We provided a working translation only of the relevant part of the
20 document that we intend to put to the witness. In relation to this
21 document, I'd like to say that we are not going to tender it because we
22 have just submitted the entire document now for translation, and once the
23 translation is done then we will perhaps go back to the same document.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. M-037 --
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Are we in private session,
4 JUDGE PARKER: No, we are not. If you're ready for private, we'll
5 go to private.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 825-826 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Yesterday, in response to my colleague's question, you said that
19 you could see the village from the road to Straista, right?
20 A. That was one of the best positions where the police was able to
21 best observe the area from.
22 Q. Also, you said that occasionally you used binoculars to view the
23 village, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. There was sporadic gun-fire from the village towards the
1 checkpoint where you were; is that right?
2 A. Whether there was gun-fire from the direction of the village?
3 Yes. And I think that was with -- that was a sniper fire, and you were
4 able to find one of those bullets in one of the house. It penetrated the
5 walls of one of the houses in the village of Straista.
6 Q. Thank you. From that position, you could also see certain
7 movements of people within the village; but at that point in time, it was
8 hard for you to discern whether they were civilians or soldiers, right?
9 A. There was movement of people there, right on the right-hand side
10 of the church and at the end of the village. So seen from the point of
11 view of checkpoint Straista, when we are looking at the first houses and
12 when we look at the end of the village, there was some movement there. I
13 assume that the sniper fire was coming from the end of the village.
14 Q. Some of the persons that you saw moving about were in black
15 clothes, right?
16 A. We noted three persons at the beginning of the village, viewed
17 from the checkpoint Straista towards Ljuboten, three persons wearing black
18 clothes; and if we were able to observe well, one of them possessed an
19 automatic rifle.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. The persons were running between the houses and the yards. They
22 were, so to say, running.
23 Q. Also, in response to my learned friend's question, you said that
24 you could follow the conversation via radio communications, right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. During the course of that day, using these radio communications,
2 is not correct that at one point you heard someone say that a person was
3 arrested with a hand-grenade in his hands?
4 A. I have not heard such a thing.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please move back into
7 private session.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 830-834 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You must be aware, Mr. M-037, that in April of 2002, exhumation of
1 the corpses was performed in the village of Ljuboten.
2 A. I saw it on television. I learned it from the media.
3 Q. The exhumation itself had no presence of the police officers from
4 the police station Mirkovci, but you had the information that participants
5 in the exhumation were representatives of international organisations and
6 the investigators of this Tribunal; is that correct?
7 A. Yes. I think there was none, but the commander of the police
8 station, if I'm not mistaken. I know that there were members of the OSCE
9 at the time and investigating judges. Where they were from, I can't tell.
10 Q. All the information were announced to the public, to the media,
11 and all citizens of Macedonia were able to learn that the exhumation was
12 ongoing; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. Is it correct that it was -- it became known very quickly in your
15 station but also in the general public that bullets were found in the
16 pockets of one of the bodies that was exhumated?
17 A. I'm not aware of such an information.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask now that the witness
19 is shown the document 1D 63, 1D 64.
20 Your Honours, it is obvious that I now have a slight problem. Our
21 documents are not uploaded yet, so I would like to ask the assistance of
22 the court translator to have the documents given to the witness. We have
23 provided this document in your folder, and at the same time we have given
24 them to the -- to translators so it would be possible for us to ask the
25 witness questions.
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: I note that some of the materials, which my learned
4 colleague would like to provide to the witness at this time, deal with the
5 last question that my colleague asked the witness regarding presence of
6 bullets in the pockets of one of with of the bodies, to which the witness
7 answered, "I'm not aware of such information." And I just would like to
8 confirm that the questions of my learned friend then will deal with some
9 other kind of topic or material.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think it would be clear to Ms. Residovic
11 that the witness is not able to help her in the matter of bullets, so that
12 that topic, I'm sure, won't be discussed with the witness; but, otherwise,
13 it's a bit anticipatory.
14 So carry on with your questioning, Ms. Residovic, but I'm sure you
15 will be aware of that matter that has been raised by Mr. Saxon.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I took
17 notice, and I think that maybe it would be more appropriate to have this
18 document recorded under the number -- under 1, 2, and 3 -- I apologise,
19 under the numbers 1 and 2, and are related to the notes of the ICTY
20 investigator who was present at the exhumation when -- on one of the
21 persons, 26 bullets were found in his pocket.
22 We will try and show this -- these documents to the Prosecutor's
23 witness who was compiled this documents. So this is the reason that I
24 would not like to show the two documents now to the witness.
25 I think that I could move away from that question, but the witness
1 has just answered that he was aware that the exhumation was performed by
2 the OSCE and the investigating judge.
3 My next question is:
4 Q. Mr. M-037, are you aware that the judge of the basic court Skopje
5 II, Dragan Nikolovski, judge who has participated in this exhumation?
6 A. Am I familiar with the name of the judge? No.
7 Q. And what about the media at the time of the exhumation. Could you
8 hear court reports through the media then?
9 A. That, yes.
10 Q. In your documents, Your Honours, under number 3, there is a record
11 of the exhumation that was carried out, or rather, the post-mortem in
12 Ljuboten. I would just like to read part of this document that pertains
13 to the report of this judge. It is on page 6, the last paragraph of the
14 Macedonian text, and the first paragraph of page 7 in the Macedonian text,
15 for which we have provided a working translation.
16 Mr. M-037, I'm going to read this part of the text out to you, and
17 I'm going to ask you whether you were aware of this fact at that point in
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: They were not given the
20 working translation.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. "At 1500 hours, the post-mortem of the corpse evidence number
23 236/5, Xhelal Bajrami, continued. The post-mortem started at 1530 and
24 after the customary previous procedure of taking it from the refrigerator
25 and transport to the operation theatre. After the blanket was unwrapped,
1 a corpse was seen dressed in a black shirt and jeans with a belt as well
2 as rubber shoes.
3 "Damage was found to the clothes. In the course of post-mortem,
4 projectiles of fire-arms were found as well as metal fragments inside the
5 corpse. Later" - this is indicated in the post-mortem protocol - "in the
6 jeans in the front left pocket, 26 bullets were found for fire-arms. All
7 of the ballistics material found were marked and retained for analysis on
8 the part of Mr. Tucker, as well the biological materials. The post-mortem
9 was completed around 2102."
10 Mr. M-037, I'm asking you now, whether you at that time you had
11 the information that the investigation team and the post-mortem team found
12 unfired bullets on the body of Xhelal Bajrami?
13 A. I don't have any such information.
14 Q. Thank you very much.
15 I would just like to check whether we're still in private session.
16 JUDGE PARKER: No. We're in public session.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Perhaps it would he
18 better if we moved into private session.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 840-845 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Yesterday, when my learned colleague asked you, you explained that
3 what was the procedure through which the police officers informed the duty
4 officer in a police station about the important events. Do you remember
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You, as a police officer, always made efforts to communicate any
8 important fact to the duty officer; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. From the field, you would generally communicate this information
11 orally, by telephone or via radio; is that correct?
12 A. It was usually over the mobile telephone because we had
13 information that -- that the NLA is able to enter our frequency and to
14 listen to our conversations.
15 Q. As a professional police officer, you never kept any important
16 information private. You have communicated all these facts to your
17 colleagues. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes. I always made effort to make it that way.
19 Q. The duty officer in the station had the duty to record that in the
20 daily log; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that is correct. If he assesses that the information I have
22 communicated to him is valid, he is supposed to write it down.
23 Q. But during the crisis, sometimes there would be very many
24 information coming from the outside, and it could happen that because of
25 the sheer volume of information the duty officer does not manage to record
1 every information. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, that is also true. It is true there was a lot of
3 information, and maybe in such situations three officers on duty were
4 needed to record all the events; and, as you know, we needed much more
5 people on the field than people inside the station.
6 Q. Is it correct that sometimes the duty officer would decide to
7 immediately communicate some important information to the duty operation
8 centre, so there would be a swift reaction to a certain situation?
9 A. Yes. That is the rule that we act upon. First, information is
10 communicated, and then it is a technical matter to write it down. It is
11 much better to have results from the field than in a book.
12 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, we spoke about this situation: When the
13 duty operation centre informs the investigating judge, then the police has
14 completed its legal duties, and further decisions are made by the
15 investigating judge. Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes, I remember that. It is correct. We would then reporting to
17 the investigating judge and then we would wait for his answer, what
18 actions to take.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask that the
20 witness is shown Prosecutor's number 65 ter 150, page 1.
21 That is, Your Honours, the number 4 in the documents you have.
22 Otherwise, the page number is N000-7350; that is the Macedonian. And I
23 ask that the English version is shown simultaneously, that we have them
24 both displayed.
25 Q. On the top of this document, Mr. M-037, you see that this document
1 was compiled by the basic court Skopje II, investigation department, and
2 it is has the ID number 579/012. The date is 15th of August, 2001, and
3 the place is Skopje. Is that the body that compiled this Official Note?
4 A. Yes. According to what is written on the left upper corner, that
5 comes from the investigating judge.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I now ask that the next page of
7 this text is shown. It bears the number N000-7351, and I ask that the
8 second page of the English text is shown as well.
9 Q. Now, Mr. M-037, the signature of this document is the one of the
10 investigating judge, Ognen Stavrev. So that is one of the judges who,
11 upon receiving the information about the event, need to make a decision on
12 what are the further actions to be taken. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes. I can see that that is the investigating judge, Ognen
15 Q. Thank you. In the text, page 2, second paragraph, in Macedonian,
16 it is stated, and I will try to read it in the B/C/S language. You have
17 it in Macedonian.
18 "Regarding the same event on the 12th of August, 2001, the duty
19 investigating judge was informed by the Ministry of Interior, secretary
20 for internal affairs, duty operations centre, 92, at 1730, that in the
21 area of Ljubanci and Ljuboten, in Skopje vicinity, there were several
22 killed members of the paramilitary Albanian terrorist, KOMA, but that no
23 access was possible because at that time the combat activities were still
24 ongoing. The investigating judge has informed the deputy public
25 prosecutor, Roska Karova, about the report from the Ministry of Interior.
1 "Also, the investigating judge was informed that the safety of
2 the investigating bodies could not be guaranteed, the court and the basic
3 public prosecutor's office, because of the military actions that were
4 ongoing. Because of such information, the investigation activities are
5 not under taken, particularly because of the military action that is
6 ongoing between the paramilitary forces and the security forces of the
7 Republic of Macedonia. Also, Dr. Aleksey Duma was informed director of
8 the forensics and criminalistics."
9 So my question now, Mr. M-037, is: Is it correct that it is the
10 duty of the police to communicate to the court all relevant facts, so that
11 there were dead body there but also that there are certain problems that
12 described the situation at the location where the event took place?
13 A. Yes, that is correct. All the information is communicated to the
14 investigating judge; and in this situation, it was done properly that the
15 investigation judges have been informed that there are combat activities,
16 and that their safety could not be guaranteed.
17 Q. But the investigating judge is the body that makes their own
18 assessment whether despite the information about the combat would go on
19 the site to investigate or not. The police could not suggest or could
20 prohibit them from going to the site. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that is correct. As you know, the court is undisputable in
22 making decisions.
23 Q. So as you see, from this report of the investigating judge, in
24 accordance with the customary practice, you informed about the presence of
25 dead bodies in the village. It is obvious that the duty -- that the judge
1 on duty informed the duty operations centre, 92, and that operations
2 centre of the sector for internal affairs, Skopje, informed the
3 investigating judge about all relevant information so that the
4 investigating judge could make a decision on whether to possibly go to the
5 site or make any other decision.
6 So my question is: Is it correct that the police took all
7 measures that it had legal duty to take?
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
10 MR. SAXON: That last question by my colleague was a fairly long
11 one, and I believe I am understanding it from the English translation, but
12 I believe that the question is intended to ask the witness whether the
13 operations centre of the sector for internal affairs, Skopje, informed
14 investigating judge about all relevant information. I don't know, Your
15 Honour, whether there has been any foundation laid that this witness would
16 be in a position to either affirm that or negate that.
17 JUDGE PARKER: There has not been such a foundation, but I'm not
18 quite sure of the point of the question, and the problem, Ms. Residovic,
19 is that is a very, very long question.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE PARKER: I think you need to break it up into bites and get
22 progressively the answers of the witness; and then if there is a problem
23 with one little part of question, it can be dealt with.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the end, I have
25 asked the question: Whether it was correct that from what we from read,
1 it was obvious that the police has taken all measures that it had the
2 duty, pursuant to the law to take. And, previously, in the long
3 paragraph, and that is my mistake, I have just tried to summarize what I
4 have read before.
5 Answering the question of the learned colleague and his objection,
6 from the first sentence, it can be seen that the duty operations centre,
7 92, at 1730 informed the judge about the events and the circumstances. So
8 I will just repeat my last question in order not to repeat what the judge
9 has written.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Before you do, may I point out that the witness is
11 not saying he knows any of these matters himself. The witness's answer
12 can only be that it appears from this report that certain things were
13 done. Now whether those things were done or not is not able to be
14 confirmed by this witness, and, really, this report tends to speak for
16 I don't think you need the answer of the witness. It sets out in
17 the words of the judge, if it is shown to be a report of the judge, that
18 that is what occurred, and this witness is in no different position from
19 you or Mr. Saxon or a member of this Chamber to say anything more about
20 what is in this statement or in this Official Note.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We do not ascertain here that the
22 witness could confirm the authenticity of this document, but we believe it
23 is relevant considering the questions about the way of reporting that were
24 asked by my learned colleague in the course of his yesterday's
25 examination, and also the answers given to me by the witness.
1 So I will then respect the suggestion that you have made.
2 Q. I will ask you only, please: Is this the legal customary ordinary
3 way that you would inform the duty officer, that they in turn would inform
4 the duty operations centre, and that the duty operations centre informs
5 the investigating judge?
6 A. Yes, that is the order of things. The police officer reports from
7 the spot (redacted), so then the duty
8 police officer contacts the duty operations centre of SVR Skopje. As I
9 was able to see from this information, the duty operations centre has
10 informed the investigating judge, and then the investigating judge then
11 probably answered that he is not going to on the spot and that he has
12 informed the director of the forensic medicine about this.
13 Q. My question, at the end: From your practice, you know that this
14 is the proper way in which the police should act?
15 A. Yes, that is the only way.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a few more brief questions.
18 Could we now move into a public session now.
19 JUDGE PARKER: We are in public, and there will be a redaction
20 shortly of a few words in the last answer of the witness about who was the
21 duty officer.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. After the events in Ljuboten, could you confirm, Mr. M-037, that
24 the police was not [Realtime transcript read in error "people were"] able
25 to freely enter the village and interrogate people; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, that is correct. And it has been quite some long time that
2 the police was not able to enter the village after that.
3 Q. Is it also correct that the inhabitants of Ljuboten, for quite a
4 long time, did not want to give any information to the Macedonian police?
5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: I'm not sure how this witness can answer that
8 question, but perhaps my learned colleague can establish how he might be
9 able to.
10 JUDGE PARKER: You've got to be confined by what this witness
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. M-037, were you as a police officer able to take statements
14 from the Albanians and were they ready to give you such statements?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you know whether --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 I apologise for interrupting my colleague. I think that at 8 and
20 9, the interpretation is wrong on the previous page, since the -- the
21 witness testified that they were not able to enter the village.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment: I have just noted in the
23 transcript it says, "people were able," while it was said, "police was not
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 Ms. Residovic.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you know from the operation of your police station and the
5 conversations with your colleagues, that they were not able either to
6 obtain information from the Albanian population in the village of
8 A. As far as I know, no one from the Mirkovci police station had
9 access was there and was not able to get any information. The only
10 communication that the villagers had with at that point were with members
11 of the OSCE. During the first two or three days after this action, also
12 they were not allowed to enter the village -- even they were not allowed
13 to enter the village.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that it is
15 time to recess now, and in the next ten to 15 minutes I will complete my
17 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We must have the first break now. We
18 will resume at five past 11.00.
19 If you would stay in your seat, sir, until the court officer is
20 able to assist you.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. M-037, you know that on the 13th of August, the agreement was
1 signed; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. However, even after the agreement [as interpreted] was signed, at
4 the Mirkovci police station, you continued to receive information to the
5 effect that in the village the Ljuboten armed groups of people were still
6 seen; is that right?
7 A. We had information that terrorist -- that there are still
8 terrorists groups.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in line 12, I said
10 what the agreement was, and the transcript does to the reflect that. My
11 question was whether even after the signing of the "framework agreement,"
12 they knew and so on and so forth, so we wee no what agreement I referred
13 to. Thank you.
14 Your Honours, I have completed by cross-examination of this
16 Q. I would like to thank the witness.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to ask to
18 have the following documents marked for identification, or rather, the
19 document that was shown to the witness. The record on the exhumation and
20 post-mortem carried out in the village of Ljuboten, which is otherwise on
21 the Prosecutor's 65 ter list.
22 And as I said earlier on, we still do not have an official
23 translation of this document. After we receive the official translation,
24 we are going to tender this record as a relevant document, and we would
25 like it to become a Defence exhibit at that point.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked for identification at the moment.
2 THE REGISTRAR: It will become Exhibit 1D 5, marked for
3 identification, Your Honours.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Also, Your Honour, the Defence
5 would like to tender the Official Note of basic court Skopje II compiled
6 by Ognen Stavrov, the investigating judge, which is otherwise on the
7 Prosecution 65 ter number list under number 150.
8 This is relevant evidence concerning the system of information
9 that the witness testified about before this Court. The document is under
10 number 4 in your file, and there is an official translation.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D 6, Your Honours.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour. I have concluded my
14 examination of this witness.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.
16 Mr. Apostolski.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I
18 will ask questions to Witness M-037 that my colleague Ms. Residovic did
19 not put.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:
21 Q. [Interpretation] My name is Antonio Apostolski, and I'm the lead
22 counsel to Mr. Johan Tarculovski. My colleague, co-counsel Jasmina
23 Zivkovic, is with me, and I will ask some questions about the events in
24 the village of Ljuboten in the period between 10 to 12 August, 2001.
25 You said that have you been working in the police for a long time;
1 is that correct?
2 A. Yes, it is correct.
3 Q. Did you have Albanian colleagues in the Ministry of Interior?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Is that correct, that from the establishment of the Republic of
6 Macedonia, there are members of Parliament of Albanian ethnicity, which is
7 around 25 percent?
8 A. I could agree with that percentage.
9 Q. In each of the Macedonian governments after the independence,
10 there are Albanian ministers; is that correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. In the percentage of around 25 percent, could you agree on that?
13 A. Yes.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters ask that the counsel and witness
15 mind the translation.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation].
17 Q. Ljuboten is on an elevation of 1.700 metres, so Skopje is in a
18 valley from the point of view of Ljuboten towards Skopje?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And also Skopje could be seen from Ljuboten; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, Skopje is visible.
22 Q. So Ljuboten could be a strategic place for the city of Skopje?
23 A. Yes, it is possible.
24 Q. So the settlement of Radisani, which is a suburb of Radisani which
25 is part of Skopje, is around two kilometres away from Ljuboten village as
1 the crow flies; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. I assume it is two kilometres away.
3 Q. Is it correct that there was an announcement by the NLA that they
4 will shell Skopje?
5 A. Yes. There were announcements in the media by certain commanders
6 that they will be shelling Skopje if certain requests of theirs are not
7 fulfilled, some terrorist requests.
8 Q. Is it possible to shell Skopje from the positions of Ljuboten?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said that in the vicinity of Ljuboten village, on August 10,
11 members of the military of the Macedonian army have died and some much
12 them were wounded, and that was done by the terrorist group, the so-called
13 NLA; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. A land-mine was planted. As far as I know, there were two,
15 one above the other, and they were remotely activated by the NLA members;
16 and most probably this was with the support by some of the villagers of
18 Q. Is it correct that in the Republic of Macedonia, on several
19 occasions, such attacks took place, whereby, members of the security force
20 have died in terrorist attacks?
21 A. Yes. Unfortunately, it is true, where members of the security
22 forces died, and it is even more sad that after their killings they were
24 Q. Did something like that happen close to Vejce?
25 A. Unfortunately, yes.
1 Q. Did something like that happen in Karpalak?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did it happen close to settlements populated by Albanian
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did the Albanian terrorists, were they using the settlement to
7 provide logistics for such attacks?
8 A. I assume that without such logistic support, they would not be
9 able to carry out successful terrorist activities.
10 Q. Is it correct that there were civilians, Macedonian civilians,
11 kidnapped by the terrorist groups?
12 A. Yes. The assumption is that they were kidnapped by the Albanian
13 terrorist groups and, the destiny of the kidnapped persons is not known
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we briefly go into a
16 private session, please.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
18 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
23 Q. The members of the security forces brought two automatic rifles
24 Kalashnikov and one Thomson, as well as ammunition; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the
2 photograph, 65 ter 612, ERN N005-6288.
3 Q. Is this the same weapon that was given to you to put it inside the
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this photograph
7 in evidence.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D 6, Your Honours.
11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown
12 photograph 65 ter 612, ERN N005-6290.
13 Q. Could you recognise that this is the same weapon given to you by
14 the security forces?
15 A. Yes. There was also a gun like this that was handed over -- that
16 was handed over to me.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I seek this photograph into
19 JUDGE PARKER: Do we need two photographs of the one weapon,
20 Mr. Apostolski?
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are two
22 different photographs of a different weapons. I will show the witness two
23 different photographs --
24 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. I thought you
25 were showing him a different photograph of the same weapon. This isn't a
2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] No, this is a Kalashnikov, Your
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D 7, Your Honours.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown
7 photograph 65 ter 612, ERN N005-6293.
8 Q. Are you able to recognise this weapon as being identical to the
9 one you were given by the security forces?
10 A. This should be that weapon, yes.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Apostolski, please.
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this photograph
13 as evidence.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D 8, Your Honours.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the
17 photograph 65 ter 612, ERN N005-6301. Could it be zoomed in to the right
18 side where one sees cardboard wrapping.
19 Q. Witness, are you able to recognise this ammunition?
20 A. Yes, I am able, particularly the one on the right-hand side, for
21 the Thomson.
22 Q. Could you place a circle around the Thomson ammunition?
23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I ask the usher to please assist
24 the witness.
25 A. And it had the same package, like this one with ammunition and
1 this one below.
2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that there
3 is no need to mark it with figures, that it is sufficiently clear with
4 this marking.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It is quite distinctive ammunition, so I think it's
6 clear enough.
7 Do you wish that to be received?
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I just wanted
9 to seek to tender this photograph where the witness has recognized the
10 ammunition given to him by the security forces as evidence.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D 9, Your Honours.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is it correct that in the course of the security forces's action,
15 when the weapons were found, one member of the security forces was
17 A. Have you finished?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes. A member of the security forces was wounded in his foot.
20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we now move to a closed
21 session briefly, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Closed.
23 [Closed session]
18 [Open session]
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Is it correct that there were many civilians within the village
21 that were moving around the village after the action and who were leaving
22 the village on the 12th of August, 2001?
23 A. Could you please repeat the question.
24 Q. Is it correct that on the 12th of August, 2001, after the action
25 of the security forces, civilians were leaving the village of Ljuboten.
1 A. My information is that the civilians from the village of Ljuboten
2 have left the village, left towards the village of Radisani around 9.00
3 and later.
4 Q. Is it correct that none of them was beaten or ill-treated by the
5 security forces?
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: I'm not sure how this witness can answer that question
9 the way it was asked.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It's going to have to be completely rephrased
11 Mr. Apostolski. This witness can't speak for all members of the security
12 forces that day. He can tell us what he saw or what he did.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
14 try to rephrase my question in order to receive an answer.
15 Q. In your opinion, you have stated previously that the action was
16 aiming at discovering and arresting terrorists; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it also correct that the action of the security forces was not
19 aimed against the civilian population of the village of Ljuboten?
20 A. It was not only that action, any action taken. Every action of
21 the security forces was not aiming at the security forces [as
22 interpreted]. Why would this one be a special one aiming against the
23 security forces [as interpreted]?
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask that the witness moves
25 closer to the microphone.
1 Microphone, please, for Mr. Apostolski.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that there
3 is some unclarity in that "security forces" is repeated twice, while I
4 think that the witness stated no action was taken against the "civilians."
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Perhaps you could clarify that,
6 Mr. Apostolski.
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So you stated that the action of the security forces was not aimed
9 against the civilians; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. You stated that you have seen a truck coming to the
12 Chinese Wall in order to take the persons deprived of liberty; is that
14 A. I'm not sure whether I saw the truck arriving, but I know that a
15 truck came there to take over the persons.
16 Q. Whether the detainees climbed the truck on their own motion --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction. Did the detainees climb
18 the truck on their own?
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
20 Q. -- did you see that?
21 A. Yes, some of them did.
22 Q. Thank you. And after the signing of the framework agreement, the
23 Albanian terrorists continued with attacks of same type. To remind you,
24 could you confirm that after the signing of the framework agreement, in
25 the vicinity of the village of Sopot where members of Albanian nationality
1 are living in the vicinity of Kumanovo, a NATO jeep stepped on a land-mine
2 where Polish soldiers, members of NATO, were killed. Could you confirm
3 that such event took place?
4 A. I could confirm that yet another event took place. I'm not sure,
5 but I think that it happened after the signing of the framework agreement.
6 I don't remember precisely the name of the village. I know that it was in
7 the vicinity of Tetovo where two or three members of the security forces
8 were killed. One of the colleagues was from the police station Centar,
9 and I believe that two of the special forces were killed near Tetovo. And
10 it is correct that there was a land-mine placed where two Polish soldiers,
11 if I'm not mistaken; and one or two Macedonian citizens were injured, if I
12 remember correctly.
13 Q. You stated that you have seen Johan inside the village of
14 Ljuboten, and he was wearing camouflage uniform. Is it correct that
15 Mr. Johan was not wearing a gun on him?
16 A. It is correct. I think that he had no weapons on him.
17 Q. Did you have orders issued by Mr. Johan?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So you can confirm that on the 12th of August, 2001, you received
20 no orders from Mr. Johan Tarculovski?
21 A. Yes. I received -- I have not received an order from him.
22 Q. Have you seen, on the 12th of August, 2001, how members of the
23 security forces were setting houses on fire with gasoline?
24 A. I haven't seen any such thing, although there were some houses
25 that were burning.
1 Q. Is it correct that you have not seen a member of the security
2 forces carrying tanks with gasoline?
3 A. What have I seen?
4 Q. Is it correct that you have not seen any member of the security
5 forces carrying tanks with gasoline, with petrol?
6 A. No. I haven't seen any such thing.
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I have just one more further
8 question for the witness.
9 Q. Are you aware that many times after the events in the village of
10 Ljuboten and after the signing of the framework agreement, the police have
11 found weapons in the village of Ljuboten?
12 A. Yes. I know from the media that weapons were discovered outside
13 of the ranks of the village of Ljuboten hidden in a cellar or something of
14 the sort.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation], Your Honours, I have no further
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Apostolski.
19 Mr. Saxon.
20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if I can just refresh my memory, are we
21 in public or in private session?
22 JUDGE PARKER: We're in public session.
23 Mr. Saxon, can you just pause a moment, please.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE PARKER: I gather we need, once again to have a short
1 adjournment, Mr. Saxon. This is probably a convenient time. It should
2 only be three minutes or so.
3 The witness will need to leave the courtroom if that three
4 minutes, so if the shutters could come down.
5 We will adjourn temporally.
6 --- Break taken at 11.46 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.53 a.m.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
10 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. M-037 --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. SAXON:
14 Q. Witness M-037, a short time ago in response to a question from my
15 colleague, you mentioned a wounded man, a man who had been wounded in the
16 foot. Do you know the name of that person who was wounded in the foot?
17 A. Do I have to answer this question?
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, can we move into private session, please.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
20 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Witness M-037, after the events of 12th August 2001, did any
6 investigating judge ever take a statement from you about what you saw and
7 experienced that day?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did any member of the public prosecutor's office take a statement
10 from you about what you saw and experienced that day?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did any member of the police department or any member of the
13 Ministry of Interior take a statement from you about what you saw and
14 experienced that day in Ljuboten?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You mentioned a truck that arrived near a place called the Chinese
17 Wall, and you told my learned colleague that some of the ethnic Albanians
18 who were detained at that area climbed into the truck on their own. Can
19 you tell us, please, how did the remaining detained persons find their way
20 into the truck?
21 A. With the assistance of the security forces, they climbed the
23 Q. Do you know why these persons needed assistance to get into the
25 A. They were not able to climb alone, by themselves.
1 Q. You've described before three fire-arms that were eventually
2 transported to the area around the Chinese Wall. Are you able to tell us
3 whether these three fire-arms were transported away from that area?
4 A. What do you mean, "transported out of the area"?
5 Q. Did anyone take those three fire-arms away.
6 A. No. If I remember well, I was the one who took those weapons to
7 the Mirkovci police station, and I wrote the receipt about found objects;
8 that is to say, fire-arms.
9 MR. SAXON: I'd like to ask the usher's permission to distribute a
10 document, please. This is the same document -- one of the same documents
11 that my learned colleague read from during her cross-examination. It's a
12 investigator's note taken by an investigator from the Office of the
14 And we have several copies that are in the Macedonian language as
15 well. So perhaps one copy could be placed by the witness and provided and
16 some more copies provided to Defence counsel so that can they can more
17 easily follow me along.
18 Can we move into private session, please, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 873-875 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. Witness M-037, you mentioned earlier today that by a decision of
12 the Minister you were relocated, you were changed from one police position
13 to another during the first half of 2002. Can you tell us, please, why
14 that decision was made by the Minister?
15 A. I personally requested for a relocation, not to the Minister, but
16 to my superiors, to be relocated from the Mirkovci police station --
17 Q. Before you say where you were sent to, perhaps we should move into
18 private session.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 877-878 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE PARKER: I will just repeat very briefly, now that we're in
5 public session, that the re-examination by the Prosecution has now
6 concluded, that the Chamber has no further questions. They have thanked
7 the witness for his attendance. He is now excused and is now about to
8 leave the courtroom.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE PARKER: While that witness is going out and the next is
12 coming in, could we just confirm a matter that was mentioned earlier in
13 the proceedings, that for the reasons we indicated when it was mentioned
14 last, during the week which commenced on Monday, the 28th of May, which is
15 a public holiday, the Chamber will not sit during that week, which means
16 that counsel and those assisting them will be able to attend to the
17 variety of matters that were causing some difficulty. So that means that
18 after the public holiday on the Monday, there will be no sitting on the
19 Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday of that week.
20 Now we have just learnt a further matter. The Appeals Chamber
21 needs our courtroom at the beginning of the week following, so that we
22 will not be able to sit then either. They have a two-day hearing. The
23 consequence is they want our courtroom on Tuesday, the 5th, and they're
24 taking the courtroom of another trial on Wednesday, the 6th. That would
25 mean that if we resumed on the Monday, we would then have the Tuesday off
1 as well.
2 It occurs to the Chamber that it would be more practical for
3 counsel if they were to have a continuous break of what would be five
4 days, six days, rather than having to come back for one day and then have
5 another day off. So I think we should indicate now and decide now that we
6 will not sit on Monday, the 4th of June, nor because of the Appeals
7 Chamber will be able to sit on Tuesday, the 5th of June.
8 So counsel should plan their activities that way and should try
9 and ensure then that after that break, which will actually now be six days
10 rather than the four days we had planned, that their preparation and
11 ordering of their papers and exhibits and their disclosure and assessment
12 of disclosed material and their interpretations, if I remember all the
13 subjects that were causing problems, are up to date and that we can then
14 proceed without interruption following that. It is hoped that with that
15 break, we will be able to proceed with much greater speed than has been
16 shown so far.
17 I'm comforted to see that there is already some quickening of pace
18 and that is in everybody's interests. But I'm sure that when we get more
19 familiar with the case and when all these procedural problems are overcome
20 and everything is fully prepared, we will be able to proceed with much
21 greater speed on all fronts, and we can then come back to thinking of
22 finishing the evidence this year. It was looking very grim for a few
24 Mr. Saxon.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I appreciate everything that the Trial
1 Chamber has just told the parties.
2 If I can simply interject one caveat and ask for a small amount of
3 patience and flexibility. There is a particular Prosecution witness who,
4 for reasons unrelated to the this case, will be in The Hague during the
5 last week of May on other business through the 1st of June. I would like
6 to try to communicate with that witness today because the Prosecution had
7 intended to call that witness first thing on Monday, the 4th of June, so
8 that witness would not have to stay here many days. This is a
9 professional person with a busy schedule.
10 If I get the wrong news from the witness, that the witness is
11 unable to stay until Wednesday, the 6th, may I have your leave to report
12 back in case it may be necessary, if possible, to have a session on either
13 Monday, the 4th, or Tuesday, the 5th.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Tuesday, the 5th, is impossible.
15 MR. SAXON: All right.
16 JUDGE PARKER: That's what made us focus on Monday, the 4th. So
17 it really would seem likely that have you will have so find some other
18 time for that witness, as difficult as though that may be. Certainly, if
19 you have some precise proposal, report back about that matter.
20 Now, is the next witness ready?
21 Thank you.
22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution will be calling Witness
23 M-012, who is a protected witness.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE PARKER: I know it is a nuance; but really for the point of
1 view of the public, we ought to lift the shutters for this moment.
2 Can the shutters be raised before the witness takes the oath, the
4 The previous witness, having left the courtroom, the Prosecution
5 has now called Witness M-012, who is also a witness subject to special
6 protection orders.
7 Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud the affirmation
8 on the card now shown to you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS M-012
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
14 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
15 Examination by Mr. Saxon:
16 Q. Before we begin, I notice that you are wearing a jacket. If at
17 any time you find you are warm, it is okay to remove that jacket.
18 First of all, I would like to show you a piece of paper, please.
19 MR. SAXON: If I could ask the court usher's assistance.
20 Q. Witness, I'd like you to take a look at the information on that
21 peace of paper.
22 First of all, without saying your true name, do you see your
23 correct name written on that piece of paper?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And is the other information about your date of birth, et cetera,
1 is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I will be referring to you not by your true name today. I will
4 refer to you as Witness M-012 or Mr. M-012.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. And if at some point I need to ask you questions that might reveal
7 your true identity, then I will ask the Trial Chamber to move into what we
8 call private session, so that the public cannot hear what you're saying.
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I'm grateful to the court usher for
10 showing the piece of paper that the witness saw to Defence counsel; and if
11 they have no objections to it, then I would ask that that document be
12 tendered under seal.
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P183, under seal, Your Honours.
15 MR. SAXON:
16 Q. Witness M-012, is your ethnicity Albanian?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Have you lived in Macedonia your entire life?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And have you lived in the village of Ljuboten?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'd like to ask you, please, to turn your mind to the events of
23 Sunday, 12 August 2001. Can you recall, first of all, on Sunday morning,
24 on that Sunday morning, where were you?
25 A. Can I have it in Albanian? I don't understand it very well.
1 MR. SAXON: Is the witness not receiving Albanian translation or
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.
4 JUDGE PARKER: We're having to switch from the Macedonian to the
5 Albanian channel, I would think, Mr. Saxon. Perhaps the witness could
6 indicate if he is now hearing what is being said translated into Albanian.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't get Albanian.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness be asked to speak closer to the
9 microphone, please.
10 JUDGE PARKER: You are now receiving in Albanian, are you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Not yet?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now yes.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Okay. Thank you. And if you could just speak to
15 us and to Mr. Saxon so that we can hear your voice and then the microphone
16 will pick up very clearly what you are saying and be able to taken
17 electronically to the people who are interpreting. Just speak to us as
18 though you have no electronic equipment there, and everything will work
19 well. Thank you.
20 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. Witness M-012, can you tell us where you were on the morning,
23 Sunday morning, 12th of August, 2001.
24 A. Yes, I can. On the morning of Sunday, I was at home. Can you
25 hear me?
1 Q. I can hear you.
2 Tell me something: Were you in a particular part of your home;
3 and if so, where?
4 A. Yes. I was in the basement of my home.
5 Q. And just briefly, can you tell us why you were in that basement at
6 that time?
7 A. We were there because we were afraid of the shelling, of the
8 firing, and of the bullets that were fired in the direction of my home.
9 Q. Did you have any fire-arms in your home?
10 A. No.
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, can we move into private session,
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
12 MR. SAXON: I would like to show you the witness Rule 65 ter
13 number 1024, please, which is a photograph. I see we have, thanks to my
14 case manager, Ms. Walpita, some hard copy packets for some exhibits. So
15 if we could again ask the court usher's permission. It's a small number
16 of exhibits, about six or seven, and this would be at tab 1, Your Honours,
17 this photograph.
18 Q. Witness M-012, do you recognise this photograph?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And without stating the name of anyone, can you tell us what is --
21 what does this photograph show?
22 A. This is the basement of my home.
23 Q. And is this the basement where you and other persons had taken
24 shelter on the 12th of August?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would offer this photograph into
2 evidence, please.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P184, Your Honours.
5 MR. SAXON:
6 Q. Witness, if we can just look at that photograph for a moment more,
7 in the upper right-hand corner, we see what appears to be a window, or
8 part of a window. Do you see that?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. I may ask you a few questions about that window later on.
11 Did something happen when you were in the basement of that house
12 on that Sunday morning, or at some point on that Sunday?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us what happened, briefly?
15 A. Yes, I can. On that Sunday morning, in that basement, police
16 forces of Macedonia entered the basement, and they made us come out of
17 there by maltreating us.
18 Q. When you say that police forces made you come out of the basement,
19 how did you leave the basement? What did you travel through to go out of
20 the basement?
21 A. They made us go out of that basement through the window. We
22 wanted to use the door, but they forced us to use the window.
23 Q. Can you describe what these persons were wearing?
24 A. These persons were wearing uniforms, police uniforms.
25 Q. Had you seen police uniforms before?
1 A. When do you think before? I don't understand this "before."
2 Q. In the weeks prior to the 12th of August, had you seen policemen
3 wearing uniforms.
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. What kind of uniforms -- can you describe the uniforms that these
6 policemen were wearing, if at all?
7 A. Yes, I can. They were wearing various uniforms, camouflage
8 uniforms, black uniforms, all sorts of uniforms that police force usually
9 wear. Black camouflage uniforms.
10 Q. And you mentioned that you and the persons who were with you were
11 forced to come out of that basement as a result of some mistreatment.
12 What happened when you and the others got outside of the basement?
13 A. When they forced us out of the basement, first of all, they asked
14 us to surrender to them money we had on us; then they started to beat us
15 savagely, continuously; then ordered us to lie down with our faces on the
16 floor; and then they started beating each and every one of us.
17 Q. And when you and the others were ordered to lie down, at this
18 point, can you describe where you were in relation, say, to the house?
19 A. We were in front of the basement, in front of that window,
21 Q. Were you still within the yard of the house?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you mentioned that these "policemen started beating each and
24 every one of us."
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you know a man named -- after you and the others were beaten
2 in the yard, what happened next, just briefly?
3 A. After they beat us, then they ordered us to leave the yard.
4 Q. And where did you go?
5 A. Outside the gate, they ordered us to lie down and put over our
6 heads the T-shirts we were wearing.
7 Q. And when you were ordered to lie down outside the gate, how were
8 you treated at that time?
9 A. Very bad.
10 Q. Can you briefly describe the treatment you and the others
12 A. Yes. Yes, I can. They started to beat us with anything they
13 could lay hands on, with their arms, with kicking at us, beating us with
14 their fists; not only me, but all of us who were there.
15 Q. I'm just trying to make sure that I understand the interpretation.
16 In English, it says, "They started to beat us with anything they could lay
17 hands on, with their arms."
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. By "arms," do you literally mean the part of body that we call an
20 arm or are you referring to some other kind of weapon?
21 A. I am referring to both; to their arms, physical arms, and weapons.
22 As I said, they beat us with anything they could.
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, would this be an appropriate time to take
24 a break, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It would, Mr. Saxon. We have had rather disrupted
1 times this morning, but we do need to break now.
2 We will resume at ten minutes past 1.00 for a shorter session.
3 Ten minutes past 1.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, could we move into private session for,
8 hopefully, just one question, please.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
10 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
25 MR. SAXON:
1 Q. Before we took the break, Witness M-012, you had described how you
2 and the people with you had been taken out of this house, out of the
3 basement, mistreated, then brought outside the gate of the house, then
4 made to lie down again, and then he were mistreated again.
5 I want to ask you something. Did you know a man named Sulejman
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How well did you know him?
9 A. Very well.
10 Q. Can you tell us something about him? How well you knew him? How
12 A. I've known him for a long time (redacted)
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if that last sentence can be redacted,
15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
16 MR. SAXON:
17 Q. Witness, I had asked you not to mention relationships that have
18 you with people. All right? Not to mention family relationships?
19 A. All right. I apologise.
20 Q. What happened, if anything, to Sulejman Bajrami on that day, in
21 front of the gate?
22 A. Do you hear me?
23 Q. Yes. But if could you speak up a bit that would be wonderful.
24 A. Yes. After we were taken outside the gate, the police ordered for
25 him to be killed.
1 Q. Well, let's go a little bit more slowly perhaps. Did you know
2 this gentleman's mother?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did anything happen to her at that time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is going on with Sulejman Bajrami's mother?
7 A. Sulejman Bajrami's mother was ordered to surrender all her money
8 and all her valuables in order for them to leave him alone, because they
9 had taken Sulejman with the intention to kill him.
10 Q. And when you say "they," who is they? Who are you referring to?
11 A. The police.
12 Q. And do you know if Sulejman Bajrami's mother turned over some
13 money to the police?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what happened after that?
16 A. After that, the police killed, executed Sulejman Bajrami.
17 Q. And how was Sulejman Bajrami killed?
18 A. He was killed while walking, because the police ordered us to
19 walk. He started walking; and while he was walking, he was killed. They
20 executed him.
21 Q. Do you know what caused Sulejman Bajrami's wounds? What kind of
23 A. Automatic weapon.
24 Q. Are you referring to an automatic rifle or fire-arm?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know Sulejman Bajrami's father?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you remember his first name?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What is this gentleman's first name?
6 A. Am I allowed to publicly state his name.
7 Q. Yes, yes.
8 A. Aziz Bajrami.
9 Q. After Sulejman Bajrami was killed, did anything happen to Aziz
10 Bajrami, if you know?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What happened to Aziz Bajrami?
13 A. After they killed Sulejman Bajrami, only for saying to his
14 son, "Oh my dear son, they killed you," they killed [as interpreted] him,
16 Q. I don't know if we have a problem with the translation. Are you
17 saying that Aziz Bajrami was killed on that day, that his life ended on
18 that day?
19 A. No. He was wounded in his arm.
20 Q. And do you know what caused Aziz Bajrami's wound?
21 A. Yes. An automatic rifle.
22 Q. Witness M-012, I have to show you a photograph now. It's not a
23 very pretty photograph.
24 MR. SAXON: If I could have the court officer's assistance,
25 please, to show 65 ter number 201. It's a photograph bearing the ERN
2 Q. Witness M-012, do you see the photograph in front of you on that
3 computer screen, please?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us what is depicted there in that photograph?
6 A. The body of Sulejman Bajrami.
7 MR. SAXON: If that photograph could be tendered into evidence,
8 Your Honour.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P185, Your Honours.
11 MR. SAXON: And it can be removed out in from the screen, please.
12 Q. Do you know if anyone else in that group of people that was being
13 mistreated in front of the house was killed that day?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was the name of the person who was killed?
16 A. Muharem Ramadani.
17 Q. We're going to take about that incident in a moment. Before we
18 do, I want to ask you if you know a man by the name of Ismail Ramadani?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know what happened to him at that time when the group was
21 being mistreated in front of the house?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What happened to Ismail Ramadani?
24 A. During the mistreatment by the police, he was stabbed on his back.
25 They carved a cross on his back with a knife.
1 Q. Again, when you use the word "they," who are you referring to?
2 A. The police. I refer to the police.
3 Q. At some point, did you actually see the injuries to Mr. Ramadani's
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I don't want to jump ahead too much, but can you tell us just
7 briefly when did you see the injuries to his back?
8 A. I saw the injuries on his back when we were at the Mirkovci police
9 station, in the garage there.
10 Q. All right. We'll come to that in a few minutes.
11 A few minutes ago, you mentioned that Muharem Ramadani died in
12 Ljuboten that day. Do you know -- first of all, let me ask you: How well
13 did you know Muharem Ramadani?
14 A. Very well.
15 Q. And how did you know him? How long had you known him?
16 A. From my childhood.
17 Q. And what do you know about what happened to Muharem Ramadani on
18 the 12th of August?
19 A. I know that he was killed by the Macedonian police.
20 Q. Did you actually see that happen, or is this something that you
21 were told about later?
22 A. I was told about this later, while in prison.
23 MR. SAXON: I would like to show the witness --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. SAXON: I would like to show the witness another photograph
1 from 65 ter 201. This is tab 3 in your binders, Your Honour. It's a
2 photograph with the ERN N000-2098.
3 Q. Witness, do you see this photograph in front of you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us what you see in this photograph?
6 A. Yes. (redacted)
7 MR. SAXON: And just for the record --
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be redacted.
9 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
10 Q. And just to be complete and clear, this is Muharem Ramadani we see
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this photograph,
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P186, Your Honours.
17 MR. SAXON:
18 Q. I believe a few minutes ago you mentioned that you and the others
19 in the group had to walk somewhere. Where did you have to walk?
20 A. Yes, that's true. The police ordered us to walk towards the
21 Brace's House; and from there, they told us that they were going to take
22 us to Ljubanci.
23 Q. Very briefly, while you were walking to Brace's House, how were
24 you treated?
25 A. Very badly.
1 Q. Can you describe briefly how you were treated?
2 A. Yes. They were beating us with automatic rifle-butts. They were
3 cursing us, offending us. They maltreated us.
4 Q. And when you use the pronoun "they," who is they?
5 A. The Macedonian police.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I just heard one of the accused say
7 something. I don't know if the witness heard it, but I hope whatever it
8 was it's not a problem.
9 JUDGE PARKER: If you could have a word with your client,
10 Mr. Apostolski, after the break, at the break.
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, it may actually have been the other
12 accused who made it.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Well, then.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It was me without the
16 THE ACCUSED BOSKOSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can't hear
17 well with the headsets, so maybe I spoke too loud because I wasn't
18 hearing. I will be silent. I will just talk to myself.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. When you arrived at the place known as Brace's House, what
23 happened to you there?
24 A. There the maltreatment and beating increased.
25 Q. At some point, did something happen to your clothes?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What happened to the clothes that you were wearing?
3 A. They started beating me savagely, hitting me on my body and head,
4 and at that moment I fell somewhere. When I regained consciousness, I
5 noticed that I had no longer my trousers on me.
6 Q. And did you also have your underwear on or not?
7 A. No. No.
8 Q. Did you have any item of clothing covering any part of your body
9 at that time?
10 A. Just a T-shirt covering my head.
11 Q. And I must apologise, there was a question I should have asked you
12 much sooner, and let me step back for a moment.
13 Going back to the time when you and the other persons were in the
14 basement of the house, can you recall, approximately, what time these
15 policemen entered, approximately, on that 12th of August?
16 A. You mean at what time, the hour?
17 Q. Approximately, what time, yes.
18 A. About 12.00. I was not wearing a watch, but I think it was about
19 this time.
20 Q. Let's --
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, you're encouraged for technical reasons
22 to have a little longer break between the end of the witness's answer and
23 the commencement of your question; and if the witness could try to do the
24 same. Thank you.
25 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
1 Q. What was your condition like when you realised that at least from
2 the waist down you had no clothes on? What was your condition like?
3 A. I was in a very difficult position.
4 Q. Can you be a little bit more precise?
5 A. Yes. I was very tired. I was covered in blood. My face, my body
6 were covered in blood. I can't describe it in words. I was in a very bad
8 Q. And after a while then, after a while at the area called the
9 Brace's House, what happened then?
10 A. After the beating and the maltreatment, they made us get on a
11 truck in order to take us to a destination that they wanted us to go.
12 Q. And, again, when you say "they," who is they?
13 A. The Macedonian police.
14 Q. And do you know where you were taken?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where were you taken then?
17 A. They took us to the Mirkovci police station. Before we reached
18 this police station, they stopped at Ljubanci village.
19 Q. When you say "us," are you referring to the people who were in
20 that basement with you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you got to the Mirkovci police station, what part of the
23 Mirkovci police station were you taken to?
24 A. In a garage.
25 Q. And was the entire -- was this entire group of people then taken
1 to the garage?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How were you treated inside that garage?
4 A. Very badly.
5 Q. Can you briefly describe how you were treated?
6 A. Yes. They ordered us to lay down on our stomachs, and they
7 started to beat us.
8 Q. When you say "they," can you be more precise? Who is "they"?
9 A. The Macedonian police.
10 Q. Can you recall what the Macedonian police used to beat you and the
12 A. Everything. Everything they wanted to use.
13 Q. How many times were you beaten in that garage, if you can recall,
14 or if you can estimate?
15 A. We were beaten many times, and I quite don't remember how many
16 times because after the beatings, I would lose consciousness.
17 Q. At some point, were you taken out of that garage for a time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where were you taken?
20 A. To a room upstairs, a police room.
21 Q. What happened inside that room?
22 A. They interrogated us about things that we were not familiar with.
23 Q. I'm just speaking about you right now. Who interrogated you?
24 A. The police.
25 Q. Can you tell us, please, what subjects you were interrogated
1 about. What specifically were you asked about?
2 A. They asked me about things about persons whom I didn't know, then
3 they forced me to sign a document. I did not want to sign this document.
4 I wanted them to turn on the lights so that I could see and read the
5 document, but they did not approve my request, and one of them said,
6 "Well, he is still tough enough to endure some more beating," and ordered
7 me to go back downstairs.
8 Q. And by "downstairs," do you mean back to the garage?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. After you returned to the garage, what happened to you there?
11 A. The beatings continued.
12 MR. SAXON: Can we move into private session, please, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. At some point, Witness M-012, was there any kind of examination
16 made of your hands at the Mirkovci police station?
17 A. Can you be more clear what you mean by the word "examination."
18 Q. Did someone come and do something with your hands.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what that was, please. What was done to
21 your hands?
22 A. Yes. Yes, I can. They told us that they will make a paraffin
23 glove test.
24 Q. And were you told what the purpose of that test was?
25 A. No.
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I see the hour. Would this be a
2 convenient time for me to pause in my testimony -- excuse me, pause in my
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
5 We must finish for the day. We resume again tomorrow at 9.00
6 a.m.. If you would wait where you are, the court officer will show you
7 out afterward. And we must stop now but we will continue tomorrow at 9.00
8 in the morning, if you could return then.
9 Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of May,
13 2007, at 9.00 a.m.