1 Wednesday, 23 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 You will have realised we are late starting because the trial this
8 morning was late finishing in the morning, and we had to allow time for
9 the tapes to be turned over.
10 Good afternoon to the witness. I remind you that the affirmation
11 that you made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.
12 Yes, Ms. Residovic.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
14 WITNESS: WITNESS M-092 [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours, good day, Mr. M-092.
18 Before I continue this sequence of questions that I interrupted at the end
19 of the day yesterday I will ask you a general question to see whether I'm
20 right about that.
21 Tell me whether among the Albanian people there is a custom that
22 family members help one another and support one another?
23 A. It depends. It depends on the family. Sometimes brothers may
24 have good relations, sometimes not. It depends. That is my answer to
25 your question.
1 Q. Thank you. If you remember, we spoke yesterday about your return
2 from Stenkovac to Ljuboten; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You stated that you took your own car. If I remember well, it was
5 a red colour that you came to the Bit Pazar locality in Skopje; is that
7 A. Yes. It was Golf I, a red colour.
8 Q. And you stated that you waited there for the -- for Isa Zendeli;
9 is that so?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And as you described yesterday, if I understand stood that well,
12 of two of you together took the same road and in the same way arrived to
13 Ljuboten. Is it so?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I would like to ask that we move into private session briefly.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 1285-1286 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You took the route across the fields in order to avoid meeting the
16 police; is it so?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Before that you never had any problems with the police. You were
19 never arrested, you never were involved in any illegal activities so that
20 you would be afraid of the police; isn't it so?
21 A. It is true that I never had any problems with the police, but at
22 the police check-point, they held us up for over 30 minutes, and our
23 objective was to bring our families to Skopje as soon as we possibly
25 Q. So you were in a hurry to take your families to Skopje. Is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In Skopje, there wouldn't be any problems for your families
4 because the Albanians live the free life in Skopje. Is it so?
5 A. Until then, when things started on Friday, life was the same in
6 Ljuboten as well for us. We were free to move, to do our daily routine.
7 But in light of the fact that we were surrounded, we felt insecure and so
8 we wanted to leave.
9 Q. As soon as you arrived at the village, you went to the premises of
10 the crisis committee; is that so?
11 A. It's called the local staff.
12 Q. Other people from Ljuboten also gathered there at a meeting to
13 review the situation and see what they would do; is it so?
14 A. After I walked those two kilometres and we saw a large number of
15 police on the site of Radishan, and therefore I didn't go home, but headed
16 for the local staff or community, wanting to find out from them what to do
17 with our families, whether we should take the families out or leave them
18 where they were. They told us to calm down, there was nothing to worry
19 about and that we should remain at home. This is what I learned from the
20 local community.
21 Q. And can I remind you in that meeting besides you, your relative,
22 then there were also Afet Zendeli, Hisni Murseli, Fatmir Kamberi and his
23 brother, Rami Jusufi, Kenan Salievski, Baki Halimi, Adnan Murseli and
24 others; is that so?
25 A. No. I saw only (redacted), Afet Zendeli, Qenan Saliu and
1 Hisni Murseli. Those were the persons that I saw at that moment there.
2 And this is -- these were the persons that assured me to remain at home,
3 not to get panicky, that the situation was calming down and there would be
4 no crisis anymore in Macedonia and so on.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. Perhaps there needs to be
7 a redaction as to a relationship that is listed on 7, page 7 line 2.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I would like to
11 ask that we move into private briefly.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
13 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Witness, that, in the village there was a
7 tangible tension because of the fact that that incident, the mining
8 incident took place and that eight members of the army were killed. Out
9 of them two were from the neighbouring village of Ljubanci?
10 A. I am not clear about the question.
11 Q. You stated yesterday that you have heard that the mine incident
12 took place at the Ljubotenski Bacila locality and that the mines placed
13 there killed several persons. As far as I remember, you stated that you
14 saw yourself some smoke and that some people who called you on the phone
15 told you that some incident has occurred.
16 So my question is now: Is it correct that because of the knowledge
17 that not far from the village at the Ljubotenski Bacila locality a
18 terrorist attack took place in the course of which eight persons were
19 killed and two of them were from the neighbouring village of Ljubanci.
20 That fact created tension and fear in the village. Is that correct?
21 A. That occurred at Bacila as you are saying. But with respect to
22 that incident, we -- we saw the smoke. This is a fact. It was near our
23 village, but the people at this local staff wanted to calm us, so we don't
24 know anything more about what you are putting to me. Only later on we
25 heard that the two people who were killed were from Ljubanci.
1 Q. Is it correct that on that date three armed NLA members entered
2 the village who participated in the placing of the mine?
3 A. No. This has got nothing to do with the truth.
4 Q. Is it correct that the crisis committee decided to establish
5 check-points; one of them was near the house or by the house of
6 Qani Jashari?
7 A. No, this is not true.
8 Q. If someone were to state to the Prosecutor of this Tribunal that
9 they noticed that there was shooting coming from the house of
10 Qani Jashari, what would be your comment on that?
11 A. This is not true. I have no comment to make. I was there myself.
12 Q. As early as on that date, 10th of August, NLA members from
13 Ljuboten were Rasim Murati, Faik Murati, Shefajet Bajrami,
14 Besim Murtezani, Jetulla Arifi, Bekri Ajdini, Orhan Bajrami,
15 Shefket Murati, Refedin Selimi, Feriz Selimi, at least these people were
16 the members. Are you aware of this?
17 A. The tenth one I didn't know. I stayed for six days at the
18 hospital and then some of them came to visit me, but I didn't know this
19 until the 10th.
20 Q. Considering this new development and your concern what you should
21 do, whether to leave the village or not, you stated that the crisis
22 committee, Crisis Staff, told you to stay. Is that so?
23 A. Yes. They said that the situation was coming down and that it was
24 under control.
25 Q. Your family did not leave Ljuboten; is that correct?
1 A. No, they didn't. No, we didn't left. No. On the 10th, when they
2 told us not to leave our homes, not to panic because the situation then
3 would calm down.
4 Q. But despite the suggestion of the crisis committee, some 50
5 families did leave Ljuboten on that day; is that correct?
6 A. When I left the crisis committee, I went to my house. I -- I met
7 the -- I met my brother's wife. I was not married at that time, and then
8 I don't know who left their houses or who didn't.
9 Q. Between the 10th and the 12th, did you receive information that
10 families of Agim Jusufi, Kenan Jusufi, Sabit Jusufi, Rizah Alia,
11 Vehaba Alia, Xhavid Alia, Afet Jashari, then the family of Rami Jusufi,
12 his mother, wife, with the children, left the village?
13 A. No, this I don't know.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask Your Honours
15 that we move into private briefly.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment, we ask for the counsel to
18 read the names slowly for us and for the transcript
19 [Private session]
11 Page 1293 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So the two of you that decided to go towards the forest and the
20 woods came together to the house of Qani Jashari; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. Once you arrived in Qani Jashari's house, you found Qani Jashari
23 there, Xhelal Bajrami, and Kadri and Bajram Jashari; is that correct?
24 A. Can you please repeat the question.
25 Q. When you arrived in the house that was owned by Qani Jashari, in
1 the house you found Qani Jashari, Xhelal Bajrami, and Kadri and
2 Bajram Jashari. So you were six in total?
3 A. I saw there Kadri Jashari, Bajram and Xhelal and then we two,
4 which makes five. I don't know if I saw anybody else because it was only
5 two or three minutes. We heard then a big roar from Ahmeti's house.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I ask that the witness is shown 65
7 ter 1D88, page 1D1234.14, and in the Albanian version page 1D1254, and now
8 P215 as a Prosecutor's exhibit.
9 Q. At this page you recognise your signature, is that correct,
10 because this is a statement that was shown to you by my learned colleague
11 yesterday, which you gave on 10th of June, 2004?
12 A. It's correct. It is my signature.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like, Your Honours, not to
14 show this document and also not to show the other document that I'm about
15 to show for the public.
16 Q. The point 14 you have said: "When we entered Qani Jashari's
17 house, Bajram Jashari, Kadri Jashari and Xhelal Jashari [sic] were already
18 there. We were six persons in the house."
19 Is that correct?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Then you go on saying in point 17. "All of us except Qani Jashari
22 have left the room, and through the window we went towards the fields."
23 Is that correct?
24 A. It is correct, except for I don't remember anything about
25 Qani Jashari. I think he was not in the room when we went out, but
1 together with the rest, we went to the -- toward the fields. It was -- we
2 were panicked. So maybe I don't remember all the details.
3 Q. But you would nevertheless agree that what you have said to the
4 investigator of the Prosecutor in the statement that you corrected upon
5 your arrival in The Hague and from what you testified today and yesterday
6 before this Court, you would agree that there is a difference between the
7 persons who were present in Qani Jashari's house; is that correct?
8 A. Can you repeat your question, please.
9 Q. You would agree with me that there are certain discrepancies
10 between what have you said in the statement that we have before us and
11 which was given by you to the ICTY investigator and what you have said
12 before there Court about who was present in Qani Jashari's house on that
14 A. Generally speaking, I accept it and it is correct. But there are
15 some elements that I don't remember about, because it was a terrible time
16 then. Maybe it is the terror that has omitted some of the elements.
17 These events took place in 2001. I think it's clear.
18 Q. In any event, you never saw Afet Jashari on that day, and he never
19 came to Qani Jashari's house; is that correct?
20 A. I don't know anything about this. I stayed for only three,
21 maximum five, minutes there.
22 Q. And before arriving in Qani Jashari's house, you knew that
23 Afet Jashari, together with his family, has left the village; is that
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. If I were to claim that those of you that were in Qani Jashari's
2 house had automatic rifles and a Thomson, then you would agree with that
3 claim. Would that be true?
4 A. It's not true.
5 Q. When you heard the police coming closer, as you testified, you got
6 out or jumped out of the window and first you went towards the tobacco
7 field and then through the meadows went to -- went towards the woods. Is
8 that correct?
9 A. It's correct.
10 Q. The first going out was Isa Zendeli, then it was Kadri Jashari,
11 and then you were the one who got out; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Xhelal and Kadri were behind you; is that correct?
14 A. I was followed by Xhelal and Bajram. Kadri had already gone out
15 and he was in the field. He was about half a metre in front of me.
16 Q. Thank you. I was confused, I apologise.
17 A. He ran. He ran before me.
18 Q. When you started running from the tobacco fields through the
19 meadows towards the forest, you were noticed from the army's position at
20 Malistena; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, of course, that's correct. Because when they shot at us, or,
22 rather, when they shot at my direction, at the same time the hay -- we
23 were covered by the hay and the soil, then the dust that the shots caused.
24 Then Kadri was shot in his shoulder, and so it was a rain of bullets on
25 us. I -- there is no way I can describe it. It was quite a terrible
1 situation. It had never happened to me before. Then he was hit in his
2 shoulder and in his back, and I don't know what else, because I don't know
3 what to say. I didn't see him after that. So I don't know how many
4 bullets hit him, but of course it was a big number of bullets.
5 Q. You were also wounded from those positions, and you weren't able
6 to assist Kadri. So with the hot wound you tried to reach the forest as
7 soon as possible; is that correct?
8 A. When I looked back - I want to be clear - I saw that -- that he
9 was hit by bullets and he also fell down. At the moment I felt a great
10 heat in my leg and I looked down and I saw that blood was coming out, and
11 I was not able to help him because there was also, there was this hail of
12 bullets, as I mentioned, coming down on us, and I'm not sure about the
13 types of weapons, because I did not go -- I did not do my military
14 service, but in great haste I crawled away. I tried to hid myself from
15 the bullets, because I would have been killed too.
16 Q. Thank you. Only after arriving in the forest you were able to
17 stop and then Isa Zendeli covered your wound with one of his T-shirts; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. Only then you were able to look towards Qani Jashari's house and
21 then you saw that the roof of the house is on fire; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct. Because after I tied the wound in my leg, I
23 made for the -- for a certain place going toward the mountains where there
24 are some oak trees and from when I left the window and to the oak trees,
25 there are about 15 minutes. I think this is how long it took us. From
1 the window to the oak woods, and then when Isa saw me, that I was -- that
2 I was -- I had been wounded, he took his T-shirt and tied my legs and we
3 looked back and we didn't look back to see the house, but we looked back
4 to see whether we had been noticed. And at that moment we saw that the
5 house was in fire, and I don't know what they set fire with.
6 Q. All right. You partially answered my next question. So neither
7 you nor Isa Zendeli were not able to see nor you knew who and how set the
8 house on fire; is that correct?
9 A. No, we didn't see. I only saw the Hermelin car near the house
10 when I was at the house, but then after that, I didn't -- I couldn't see
12 Q. While you were in the house -- in the forest, I apologise --
13 actually, while you were walking through the woods towards Matejce, you
14 were able to hear that from the area of the Matejce monastery where the
15 NLA was -- that fire was opened towards the army positions, were you able
16 to hear this?
17 A. I may only say that when we were trying to walk uphill, the
18 Hermelin moved away from Jashari's house. This I saw with my own eyes.
19 And whoever were responsible for that, they should know, and you may ask
21 Q. As far as I understood, after you were helped and after your
22 hospital treatment, you joined the NLA; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You joined the 114th Brigade, that was headquartered in Matejce;
25 is that correct?
1 A. No, it was Brigade 114 but its base was in Nikustak. I was a
2 member, but a member without a weapon, because in the meantime the Ohrid
3 Framework Accord was signed so there was no need for me to have a weapon.
4 Only the membership card.
5 Q. My next question is exactly connected to your previous answer.
6 Although you knew that the Ohrid agreements had been signed for over a
7 month before your -- before you left the hospital, you continued to join
8 some military groups; is that correct?
9 A. I am not clear about the question.
10 Q. NLA was composed of persons -- of armed persons; is that correct?
11 A. The NLA had brigades and units.
12 Q. After the framework agreement, all the NLA members had to disarm
13 and to -- and the NLA was supposed to be dismantled; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is true. And it is also a fact that they were disarmed.
15 Q. But after you were released from the hospital over a month after
16 the framework agreement had been signed, you joined an armed formation?
17 Armed formation?
18 A. I was not at the staff, but I know that. I know that the NLA was
19 armed gradually unit by unit.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Disarmed, correction.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I don't know when the last unit
22 was disarmed. I know that first number 13, 12 and then 14 were disarmed.
23 But I know that because I was there.
24 Q. When you returned to the village, you never reported the event to
25 the police of the Republic of Macedonia. You neither went to any
1 prosecutor to tell what you know about the events; is that correct?
2 A. That is correct, I didn't.
3 Q. Then -- and later you had no trust to Macedonian police. You
4 didn't want to talk to the police and you only gave your statements to the
5 International Tribunal; is that correct?
6 A. That is correct. It was for security reasons.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I hereby end with
9 the cross-examination.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.
11 Ms. Zivkovic.
12 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
13 Cross-examination by Ms. Zivkovic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. M-092. I am Jasmina Zivkovic
15 and together with my colleague Antonio Apostolski, I appear on behalf of
16 Mr. Johan Tarculovski.
17 You told my learned colleague, you explained her how you went to
18 Ljuboten on August 10th, 2001.
19 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask if the witness
20 could be shown photograph N005-7605.
21 Q. Mr. M-092, do you see this photograph in front of you?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Do you see the fields on this photograph through which you walked
24 from Radisani towards Ljuboten?
25 A. Can you zoom it in, please? I don't think I see the way I
1 followed in this photo. I don't think this is the right photo. You have
2 to show me the photo which shows the Radishan site when I got off the bus.
3 It was a bus station in Radishan. Everybody knows where it is.
4 Q. In the upper right corner --
5 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we ask to move the photograph
6 to the left a little bit.
7 A. On this side here.
8 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] A little bit more, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Don't go that far. On the left, I
10 think. More on the left. In the middle of the village.
11 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to help, to
12 assist the witness.
13 Q. The usher will now give you the pen, Mr. M-092. Please mark the
15 A. Can you move the photo a little bit on the right, please?
16 Please can you move the photo to its right side. No, no, not to
17 the left; to the right. It's okay. It's not very clear to me. Now it's
19 There is like a tree grove when you enter the village. It's
20 approximately the same route that I followed.
21 Q. And the path that you went through is two kilometres long, right?
22 A. Yes. Because that place is close, one or two kilometres -- one
23 kilometre from the house to the hill and from the hill to Radishan. I
24 didn't measure it, of course, but it's approximately two kilometres.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I tender this photograph as a
2 Defence exhibit.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D19, Your Honours.
5 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. M-092, you said the shelling of the village of Ljuboten on
7 Friday, 10th of August, started around 10.00 or 11.00 a.m.; is that
9 A. Are you talking about the 12th of August?
10 Q. No. I'm talking about August 10. Friday.
11 A. There was shelling on Friday in the afternoon.
12 Q. Can you tell me first one more thing: At what time did you arrive
13 to the village of Ljuboten?
14 A. At 9.00 I was in Stenkovac. I would say that around 12.00. It
15 was a Friday, and I remember that the time for the Friday prayer was in an
16 hour's time. So I know that I arrived in the village and prayed there.
17 Q. So you can confirm that the shelling started on the 10th of August
18 in the afternoon?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. Yeah, I heard some -- the noise of the shelling.
22 Q. This means if someone were to state before this Court that the
23 shelling on that day, the 10th of August, started around 8.00 in the
24 morning, that someone would not be speaking the truth; is that correct?
25 A. I don't think so. The truth is that when I arrived in the village
1 from the city, there was nothing going on in the village. This is what I
2 eye-witnessed. I'm not responsible for other people.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you know how many shells fell in the village of
4 Ljuboten on the 10th of August, 2001? The Friday, let me clarify.
5 A. My house is at the school, near the school. They didn't fire the
6 school or at my house, neither at Qenan Saliu's house they fell on a
7 field. I saw two shells. Because my house is a little bit higher and the
8 field lower and then I saw the dust rising from that field. But I know
9 nothing about other shells.
10 Q. And those two shells fell where in would you repeat that?
11 A. On the field. It was planted to wheat. I don't know, maybe they
12 aimed at the houses, but they fell on the field. It is near the school,
13 and near my own house.
14 Q. Thank you. You said in your statement that you mainly spent --
15 spent the Friday inside your house, and the house of your relatives that
16 is located near your house and that you never left for the field at all?
17 A. That's true.
18 Q. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's true. We never left the house.
20 Q. You spent most of the time on Saturday in the house of
21 Shaban Zendeli and in the house of Afet Zendeli, and you still couldn't
22 know what was happening in the village, considering that you stated that
23 you couldn't see anything through the windows of the house; is that
25 A. We were at the house of Shaban and Afet Zendeli, and we were
1 inside. It is like kind of lower place, like a hole, because we felt more
2 secure there. And of course we didn't see anything from there.
3 Q. You told my learned colleague Ms. Residovic then that you were in
4 the house of Shaban Zendeli, and then with Isa Zendeli you went to the
5 house the Zendel Zendeli where you stayed for a short while,?
6 THE INTERPRETER: For a very short while, interpreter's
8 MS ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. And after that you went to the house of Qani Jashari; is that
11 A. That's correct.
12 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now show the witness again
13 the photograph N005-7603.
14 Could you zoom the photo in. Not that much; a little bit less.
15 Q. Mr. M-092, in the photograph that you see in front of you, do you
16 see the houses of Afet Zendeli -- no. I apologise, Shaban Zendeli,
17 Zendel Zendeli?
18 A. It's not the right photo. Show me the right photo, then I can
19 indicate where they are.
20 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we move the photograph to the
21 right --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see my house and the houses
23 of my uncles. Just move it more. Stop it. Stop it. It's okay now.
24 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation].
25 Q. I will ask you now with the assistance of the usher to use the
1 stylus --
2 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.
4 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. I apologise for the
5 interruption. Perhaps this might be an appropriate moment to move into
6 private session if there's going to be some marking and identification of
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Private.
9 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
2 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Today you told us that while you were running towards the forest,
4 you were wounded -- your leg was wounded. My question is: From which side
5 was your leg wounded, the front or the back?
6 A. I was lying down and a bullet hit me in my leg near my -- near my
7 knee. Because at that moment bullets were falling. And I don't know what
8 side I was looking at, because Kadri Jashari was hit at that time. And --
9 but the bullet did not hit my bone, so my bone was not broken.
10 Q. You were shot at from the positions at Malistena.
11 A. From -- from the -- both from up and from down, from the Hermelin,
12 because the bullets that hit Kadri Jashari did not come from Malistena
13 position because he was hit in his back. There were a lot of bullets,
14 and I don't know where the bullet that hit me came from, but I know --
15 Q. Thank you. You also explained that when you arrived to the
16 forest, Isa Zendeli, when he arrived, bandaged your wound with a shirt, a
17 T-shirt and you stay in the forest until a shepherd found you on Tuesday,
18 the 14th of August. Is that correct?
19 A. With a T-shirt, yes. After Isa tied my wound with a T-shirt - it
20 was a T-shirt because it was thin - we travelled for two days. The first
21 day we walked, I slept the first night at someplace called Lajthia, and
22 then I woke up in early morning. Then the second day, I woke up in the
23 place called Ditaha [phoen] and then on Tuesday afternoon I took to
24 walking again and we met a shepherd in Matejce mountains, somewhere there
25 and he informed other people and called for help, because I was
1 suffering -- I had been suffering from heavy bleeding.
2 Q. So they took you to the Lipkovo hospital and then to the hospital
3 at Nikustak; is that correct? So were in the military hospital at
4 Nikustak. This is what you stated?
5 A. Yesterday I think I clarified things well, because Rexhep Selmani
6 is a surgeon and in Lipkovo he was the one who cured my leg for five days,
7 because Ridvan Bajrami does not have the right education or the education
8 or the speciality of Rexhep who was the minister at the time.
9 Q. Yes, I remember that you have stated that. I remember.
10 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness the
11 document P218, and I ask that this document is not shown to the public.
12 Q. Mr. M-092, you see the discharge note in front of you. In this
13 medical discharge note, it is written that you were admitted at the
14 hospital, you were hospitalised on the 12th of August, 2001, and that you
15 were discharged on the 17th of September. Do you see that?
16 A. Yes, I see it. Thank you for showing me this document, to make
17 things more clear. Because yesterday I noticed that you could -- that you
18 had some doubts with regard to this. On -- the 12th of August is the day
19 when the event happened because they asked me what day that write there
20 and I insisted on the day that I was wounded should have been written in
21 the note. So that's why the date is there. That's the truth. You can
22 also ask Mr. Rexhep Selmani and ask this question. That's the truth.
23 This is the date when I was wounded, the 12th of August, 2001.
24 Q. You will agree with me that such data could possibly be written in
25 your medical history file, but in the discharge note of any hospital there
1 is always the admission date and the discharge date. These are the only
2 data that are entered apart from the general basic data. That means,
3 Mr. M-092, that on the 12th of August, 2001, you were in the military
4 hospital in Nikustak, so that what you have stated that you were in
5 Ljuboten on the 12th of August and then you were wounded, and then spent
6 two days in the forest does not correspond with the written evidence, the
7 discharge note, where it is written that that was the date that you were
8 admitted at the hospital. Does it mean that you were wounded somewhere
9 else and then taken to the hospital?
10 A. No, that's not true, that I was wounded somewhere else. Because I
11 was really wounded. There is no other reason for me to be so sick. But I
12 insisted on writing down the date when I was wounded, because I -- they
13 didn't see me on the 12th. And it was Rexhep Selmani who took care of me
14 personally. You can ask him personally. He is a well-known intellectual.
15 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering that I
16 will follow another direction of questions later, would this be with a
17 good time to take a break.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. And we resume at 4.15.
19 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Zivkovic.
23 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Mr. M-092, we will go briefly back to the events from the
25 Qani Jashari's house.
1 You said that in front of the Qani Jashari's house gate you saw a
2 Hermelin. What was the colour of the Hermelin?
3 A. Green.
4 Q. You didn't know the answer to this question in 2004 when you were
5 interviewed by the investigators.
6 A. I drew a picture or a drawing of the Hermelin, also the -- the
7 people coming out of the Hermelin, from its door. They were masked men.
8 There was a Macedonian flag on it.
9 Q. I'm about to ask you that. But at the question of the ICTY
10 investigators in 2004 about the colour of the Hermelin you said that you
11 don't remember, that you don't know.
12 A. I don't know now [as interpreted]. Now I know.
13 Q. You said that you saw two people in camouflage uniforms from the
14 house at the very Hermelin to -- beside the Hermelin and six people
15 leaving the back door to the Hermelin; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. While in Qani Jashari's house, you said you only stayed there for
18 just a few minutes. Did you or did anyone of the persons that you
19 mentioned were together with you talked by some -- over some telephone?
20 A. Yes, Kadri Jashari, and he didn't hang up the phone.
21 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move briefly into a
22 private session, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 1312 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
22 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Could you tell us, please, once again, in what order did you leave
24 the -- Qani Jashari's house through the window?
25 A. Yes, the first one was Isa. And I don't remember well, because we
1 first stopped at the place where there was some tobacco, but when we were
2 running I know the order of the people, how we were running, but I don't
3 remember -- I don't quite remember the order of getting out from the
4 window. I remember that was Kadri, Isa, Xhelal Bajrami, we were all
5 together, but ...
6 Q. Thank you. That mean us that don't know what direction did
7 Xhelal Bajrami and Bajram Jashari went?
8 A. We were all together there at the place where tobacco was. But,
9 as I said, I don't remember the order of people coming out from the
10 window, who was the first one to get out of the window and the second.
11 But I'm talking here about the skelja [phoen].
12 Q. I don't know whether I -- I didn't ask you whether you know the
13 order but do you know what direction did Xhelal Bajrami and Bajram Jashari
15 A. I don't know anything about that, because up -- we went together
16 to the place where the tobacco was. First was Isa, then Kadri and then
17 me. But then I don't know what happened, because I couldn't see at that
19 Q. Okay. As you say now, and as you already told my learned
20 colleague today, in your escape towards the forest, you were frightened
21 and you only thought how to reach the forest alive; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that means, as you confirmed a while ago, that you weren't
24 able to see what was going on with the others behind you. My question is:
25 Does it mean that it might be possible that Kadri Jashari, Bajram Jashari
1 and Xhelal Bajrami, that they have fired to the -- at the Macedonian
2 security forces without you seeing that, as you have said?
3 A. Kadri Jashari was in front of me and what you said about him is --
4 it is not true. The police should -- you should consult this with the
5 police and they will verify this what I'm saying. And I am talking here
6 based on the attestations that I have given, and Kadri Jashari did not
7 have any weapons.
8 Q. But Bajram Jashari and Xhelal Bajrami, you didn't see them because
9 they were behind you and you didn't look behind because you were fearing
10 for your life, meaning that both -- the two of them could be firing
11 without you seeing it.
12 A. I already mentioned that I went to Qani Jashari's house and I
13 didn't see any weapons in their hands there.
14 Q. Thank you. Is it true that the NLA fired with mortars towards the
15 members of the security forces?
16 A. When Isa was tying up the wound in my leg, I was trying to look if
17 they were coming near us, to kill us, and in 2001, I'm talking, and they
18 left immediately, the police. They left immediately, after the -- after
19 the roof of the Qani's house caught fire, and when I arrived in Lipkovo
20 they told me that they had fired at the direction of Ljubanci. That is
21 true that they fired.
22 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Could we briefly move
23 into a private session for a while.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 1316-1320 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
6 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. M-092, can you tell us, since you are a religious person, you
8 have repeated this several times in the course of the questioning by my
9 colleague Ms. Residovic. My question is whether as a hoxha, as a
10 believer, could you join the NLA?
11 A. Can you be more explicit, please.
12 Q. Does the religion allow you that you are a hoxha but also a member
13 of a terrorist organisation?
14 A. I don't know about terrorist organisation and I don't have the
15 right to describe it as such. Second, if someone kills me, or if someone
16 commits a massacre against you, when you don't feel free in the country
17 you reside, then in these circumstances the religion allows you to do
18 that, to defend your own home, or if the neighbour enters your home, then
19 you have some right. I wanted to put it in a religious context, since you
20 asked me that question.
21 Q. Thank you for this clarification. Did you take an oath when you
22 joined the NLA?
23 A. No. I just took a photo, put on the uniform, and that's it. I was
24 walking on crutches at that time.
25 Q. You told us also today that you joined NLA after the signing of
1 the framework agreement. Can you tell us why did you join NLA then?
2 A. They treated me. Rexhep Selmani was the first person who gave me
3 help. Then we were killed, we were massacred. How couldn't I not join?
4 If someone would fail under these circumstances to join then that is his
5 own decision. Because we live side by side with the Macedonians. We sold
6 our produce on the market side by side. We were on good relations with
7 them. And the Macedonians know this very well.
8 Q. Thank you, do you --
9 A. I will always remember what happened and you ask me why did you
10 join. Of course I would join. That's why I'm here, to tell you the
12 Q. I don't know whether you understood well my question. My question
13 is -- actually, I don't know whether I asked it well.
14 My question is: Considering that the peace agreement was signed,
15 what would be the reason for you to join it later? I could understand if
16 you joined before that.
17 A. Yes, we knew that the agreement was signed. But I went there and
18 since I was admitted in their ranks I thought that maybe they would employ
19 me somewhere like other people were. And further than that, I considered
20 it a honour, like all Albanians did.
21 Q. All right. So as far as I understand, you've spent a lot of time
22 with those people from the NLA and I suppose you discussed the aims of the
23 NLA with them. And considering all this, you then decided to join. Is it
24 correct that the NLA fought for territories in the Republic of Macedonia?
25 A. I don't know.
1 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask the Court if we could
2 move into private session now.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 1324-1326 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
14 Re-examination by Ms. Motoike:
15 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. You mentioned earlier that the NLA was
16 disarmed at some point after the Ohrid agreement. Who gave the order to
18 A. It was given by KFOR or Ali Ahmeti. I don't know.
19 Q. Do you know who Ali Ahmeti was or is?
20 A. I saw him in the media.
21 Q. Do you know if he holds a certain position and what is that?
22 A. He was a political leader.
23 Q. In 2001, let's just make it more specific. In 2001, do you know
24 what he was a political leader of?
25 A. Of the NLA.
1 Q. You also told us that you weren't given a weapon at the time that
2 you joined the NLA. Were your colleagues at the time, other members of
3 the NLA at that time that you joined, were they also not provided weapons
4 or disarmed, that is?
5 A. When I saw the soldiers there, they were armed. We were two
6 persons, my cousin and myself. But after I was taken to hospital, I
7 didn't see him anymore, but I know that my cousin and myself we didn't
8 have weapons. But the other soldiers who were there for a longer time,
9 they did have weapons. I don't know if I made myself clear.
10 Q. At some point, though, were the others that you were -- the others
11 in your group, in that particular group of the NLA, were they at some
12 point disarmed as well?
13 A. All of them were disarmed at a later time. All of them. All of
14 them surrendered their weapons. When I had this photo taken, the soldiers
15 stayed two or three more days. I don't remember the date. After I
16 received this discharge note from the hospital, then I saw that there
17 wasn't anyone armed in Nikustak, from 3, 4.000 soldiers that they used to
18 be at least there is the approximate number I know. When I was released
19 from hospital, they were about 50 left. When I went to Skopje, I don't
20 think they were there anymore. At least this is what I know. Whether
21 they stayed there more than two days or so, I don't know, because I went
22 to Skopje.
23 Q. Witness, you were also asked about not reporting the events to the
24 Macedonian police after they occurred. Were you ever contacted by any
25 Macedonian authoritative body and/or the Macedonian police regarding the
1 events that you have described to us today?
2 A. No. But once I was in Gazi Baba neighbourhood and I saw them, but
3 I don't think they came to contact me. Once I remember that they -- they
4 called me to the Beko police station.
5 Q. My question to you was were you ever contacted by the Macedonian
6 police or a Macedonian authoritative body regarding the events in Ljuboten
7 that you've given us today?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You also mentioned on page 45 of today's transcript
10 Muzafer Agushi. And you indicated that he was wounded. Do you know where
11 this person was wounded?
12 A. Above Basinec, I was told, and he was killed.
13 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. I have nothing further.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 We would thank you very much for the evidence you have given and
16 for coming to The Hague. You will be pleased to know that that concludes
17 the questions for you, and the court officer will show you out now and you
18 will be free to leave and we would thank you once more.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you,
20 Your Honour, and we demand that justice prevail. We all look forward to
21 justice outing, regarding what happened in Ljuboten and what I saw and
22 what I heard about.
23 Thank you very much indeed.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
1 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Mr. Neuner will lead the next witness and I would respectfully
3 like to remind the Court at a time that is convenient today may the
4 Prosecution have a few minutes to address some of the issues that we
5 discussed yesterday in private session. There was an issue related to
6 protective measures that need to be addressed as well.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Is that conveniently dealt with now?
8 MR. SAXON: It could be, Your Honour, yes.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think we might do that and it might then be
10 an appropriate time to have a break and then we can have an uninterrupted
11 session with the witness.
12 MR. SAXON: And I apologise. I'm searching for an e-mail that
13 contains some information so I don't provide any misinformation to the
15 Are we in private session now?
16 JUDGE PARKER: We're in public.
17 MR. SAXON: Can we move into private session, please.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 1331-1335 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 I think, Mr. Saxon, before the next witness arrives it would be
6 convenient to have the second break, and we will resume at 6.00 which will
7 give us a complete hour with the witness.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud
12 the affirmation that is now given to you.
13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 WITNESS: MAMUT ISMAILI
18 [Witness answered through interpreter].
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, you have some questions.
20 MR. NEUNER: Good afternoon.
21 Examination by Mr. Neuner:
22 Q. Good afternoon, witness?
23 A. Good afternoon, sir.
24 Q. Your name is Mamut Ismaili?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And your ethnicity is Albanian?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You live in the village of Ljuboten in Macedonia?
4 A. Yes, I do. I live in Ljuboten village.
5 Q. And in October 2003 you provided a statement to the ICTY?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in April of this year, you met my colleague and myself in
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. And on that occasion you signed another statement containing this
11 earlier statement from October 2003?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. NEUNER: May I ask the usher to take two statements, please.
14 Q. Mr. Ismaili, if you please look at the first statement with the
15 ERN N006-4072 till 4077, and on the bottom of the first page, do you
16 recognise your signature?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And of the entire document, did you sign each and every page?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. NEUNER: Mr. Usher, if you could please help the witness to go
21 to page 6 of that document. ERN is N006-4077.
22 Q. If you look at the fields below "witness acknowledgment," do you
23 recognise your signature here?
24 A. No, I don't, this one.
25 Q. I'm talking about the --
1 A. Yes, here, yes. Yes, yes.
2 Q. You looked at the upper of the two signatures on this page, for
3 the record, please?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 MR. NEUNER: If now the second statement could please be shown to
7 Mr. Ismaili.
8 Q. When we met in Ljuboten in April of this year, you had the
9 opportunity to make corrections and addenda to your first statement that
10 you have just seen; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And all these additions and corrections were noted down in this
13 second statement which is in front of you now?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you please confirm, looking at the first page, that the
16 signature in the middle below is yours?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And after the statement had been read to you, did you have the
19 opportunity to sign each page of this second statement?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. NEUNER: Can we please, Mr. Usher, turn to page 7 of that
22 second statement.
23 Q. And it's the upper field where it says "witness declaration," do
24 you find your signature here, Mr. Ismaili?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. And together, does -- do both statements, the consolidated and the
2 corrections, contain what you would say if would testify orally today in
3 front of this Court?
4 A. Can you repeat the question again, please, if possible.
5 Q. Yes, I can. I have shown you two statements now. And you stated
6 that you had signed each of these two statements. If both statements
7 would now be given to the Court would the content of both statements
8 reflect what you would have said orally if would you have testified today
9 in Court.
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. NEUNER: Mr. Usher, can both statements he removed and I ask
12 to tender both of them into evidence, please.
13 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: The first statement will become Exhibit P219.1,
15 and the second statement will become Exhibit P219.2, Your Honours.
16 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I will briefly summarize what is
17 contained in the two statements.
18 In the statements, the witness describes the shelling of Ljuboten
19 in the time-period 10 till 12 August 2001, including the damage and
20 destruction it caused. For example, two floors of the house of his father
21 were damaged on the morning of 10 August 2001.
22 Mr. Ismaili fled from Ljuboten on Sunday, the 12th of August, in
23 the early afternoon towards Skopje with his family. They were stopped at
24 Busolak [phoen] check-point by Macedonian police. Men were separated from
25 women and children. The witness was ordered on the ground, to lie on the
1 ground with approximately 50 other men. The police beat the detainees
2 with rifle-butts, kicked them with boots and removed their personal
4 The witness and other detainees were transferred first to Cair
5 police station, then to Karpos police station and on Tuesday, 14 August,
6 2001, to Skopje Court II. At each location, the witness was beaten
7 severely by police, at the Skopje Court II with rifle-butts and other
8 objects. In court, the witness had to sign a document. Leaving this
9 court, the witness was beaten again and transferred to Sutka prison.
10 In September 2001, the witness and others were indicted for
11 service in the enemy army. He was not convicted but pardoned and released
12 after four months in detention in December 2001.
13 Q. Mr. Ismaili, this is an accurate summary of your statement?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. I want to show you now pictures. I want to take you to Friday
16 morning, the 10th of August, 2001.
17 In paragraph 3 of your consolidated statement you mentioned that
18 you were in your father's house. And I wish to show you a photograph of
19 Ljuboten with the ERN N005-7603.
20 MR. NEUNER: If this could please be enlarged.
21 Q. Can you see the picture in front of you on the screen?
22 A. Yes. Can you zoom it in, please?
23 MR. NEUNER:
24 Q. Could you please point to the house of your father, or tell the
25 cameraman if he has to move the camera, in which direction he has to move
2 A. You have to move it on my left side. Here.
3 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, can the witness
4 please be provided with a pointer.
5 Q. Could you please point to the house of your father.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. You encircle it already. Thank you. Could you mark a 1 next to
8 this, please?
9 A. This is it number 1.
10 Q. And you describe in your statement that there was shelling coming
11 from a location you mentioned referred to as Delba, could you point out
12 where the shelling was coming from?
13 A. They came from all sides, from here. It's a monastery here. It's
14 on my left side. I think you have to move again the picture.
15 Q. Can we take this step by step, please.
16 Can you first, when the picture is moved to the left, can you
17 first point where the location Delba is?
18 A. Delba is on the other side.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, we cannot technically move this
20 photograph and contain the image that is being marked.
21 MR. NEUNER: Okay.
22 JUDGE PARKER: So if you want that, we need to receive that as an
23 exhibit and then move to some other spot.
24 MR. NEUNER: Yeah. Then could you please sign the picture --
25 JUDGE PARKER: No need for that.
1 MR. NEUNER: No need for that. So can we please retain it.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Do you want it received as an exhibit?
3 MR. NEUNER: Yes, please.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P220, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to say now which way you need the
7 photo to be moved?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On my right-hand side.
9 MR. NEUNER:
10 Q. Can we maybe zoom out a little bit.
11 A. It's okay. Now I can see it. It's okay now.
12 Q. Witness, can you tell us on this larger image where is Delba?
13 A. Here.
14 Q. Can you encircle this, please, this area Delba?
15 A. Shall I encircle it?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. All this part is Delba.
18 Q. And on that morning, the 10th of August, where do you believe that
19 this shelling was coming from?
20 A. From all sides. From Delba, Shulan [phoen], Kitka [phoen]. From
21 all sides there were shots.
22 Q. So you're not sure from where exactly the shelling was coming
23 from, which --
24 A. No, no. They came from all sides. I couldn't find out which
25 direction they came from.
1 MR. NEUNER: Can I please tender this document into evidence.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Is the witness able to say whether either of Shulan
3 or Kitka are to be seen on this photograph?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, only Delba and a small part of
5 Shulan can be seen here.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Could you mark the small part of Shulan, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Could you put a number 2 against Shulan.
9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
10 MR. NEUNER: For the record the witness has marked a number 1.
11 JUDGE PARKER: On the Delba marking. And number 2 a part of
13 Do you tender that.
14 MR. NEUNER: Yes, please. I ask to tender it.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P221, Your Honours.
17 MR. NEUNER: I want to move on.
18 Q. You stated in paragraph 4 of your consolidated statement you saw
19 burning houses in Ljuboten.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you clarify, when did you see these houses burning?
22 A. On Friday, in the morning.
23 Q. And this is the 10th of August, 2001?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Please, the next picture --
1 A. No, excuse me, on Sunday. It was on Sunday.
2 Q. Can you provide the date, please?
3 A. 10th of August -- 11 -- 12th August.
4 Q. On Sunday, 12th of August, 2001?
5 A. Yes. Yes, 2001.
6 MR. NEUNER: Can please the photograph N005-7605 be shown to the
7 witness. This could please be zoomed in.
8 Q. Are you in a position to point out where the burning houses are --
10 A. No.
11 Q. Should we zoom in a little bit more?
12 A. Yes, but on the left side, please.
13 Q. Which direction you wish to go to? You said to the left side?
14 A. Yes, yes. It's okay now. Go on, go on. Again, again. A little
15 bit more.
17 Q. Can you please encircle the houses which were burning on the 12th
18 of August, 2001?
19 A. Here are two houses.
20 Q. Are these all houses which were burning?
21 A. And another house was here. Here.
22 Q. And were you in a position to see what caused the burning?
23 A. The Macedonian police.
24 Q. Why do you say that?
25 A. Because the police had placed a check-point all around the
2 Q. Can you please --
3 MR. NEUNER: Can I please tender this exhibit into evidence.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P222, Your Honours.
6 MR. NEUNER:
7 Q. Witness, do you know whose houses these are?
8 A. They belonged to Sabit and Isuf.
9 Q. Are we talking about last names or about first names here, with
10 Sabit and Isuf?
11 A. Sabit and Isuf are first names. I don't know their last names.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 Witness, I have one more photograph. The ERN is N004-4509; 65 ter
14 number 199.21.
15 MR. NEUNER: Could this please be displayed.
16 Q. What do you recognise on this picture?
17 A. On this picture, there was the police check-point.
18 Q. Where was the police check-point, please?
19 A. Here. The main police check-point was here.
20 Q. Can you please encircle where you believe that the check-point
22 A. The check-point was a little bit closer but you can't see it here.
23 And here it was where they made us lie down on the ground. The women were
24 separated from men. You can't see the check-point here.
25 Q. Witness, you just said you can't see the check-point but you also
1 said you were --
2 A. You can't see it in the picture.
3 Q. You also said there was a location where you were asked to lay
4 down. Can you encircle that place, please.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And do you know the name of this place?
7 A. Kodra e Zajmit [phoen].
8 Q. Is there another name for Kodra e Zajmit?
9 A. I don't know. This is part of my field, my father's field, and we
10 called it Kodra e Zajmit meaning Zajmi's hill.
11 Q. And where is the place where you were beaten?
12 A. Here, the place where I encircled.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 MR. NEUNER: If I can tender this document into evidence.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P223, Your Honours.
17 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Neuner.
19 Ms. Residovic.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ismaili.
23 A. Good evening.
24 Q. I'm Edina Residovic, and together with my colleague
25 Guenael Mettraux, I'm appearing on behalf of Mr. Ljube Boskoski.
1 You already told my learned colleague the Prosecutor about the
2 basic data, about yourself, and I will just briefly ask you to confirm
3 whether it's true that you were born on 30th of March, 1964 in Ljuboten
4 and that you lived with your wife and your four children in Ljuboten. Is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. You worked as a construction worker; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. As my learned colleague already told you, you have given
10 statements to the investigators of the ICTY. The first one that you gave
11 was on the 28th and 29th of November, 2003; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You signed that statement, and then you stated that you have been
14 telling the truth to the best of your recollection; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So the officer of the registrar of this Tribunal, on 20th of
17 November, 2005, has certified that statement of yours; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Today my learned colleague the Prosecutor showed you the statement
20 that you have given on the 23rd of April of this year in Ljuboten as a
21 confirmation of the previously given statements and you also signed that
22 statement. Is it correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When the officer of the registrar, when he certified your
25 statement in 2005 at that time you had the opportunity to see and read
1 that statement in the Albanian language; is that true?
2 A. Could you please repeat your question.
3 Q. When, in Ljuboten, the officer of the Tribunal came to certify
4 your previous statement on November 20th, 2005, at that time you got your
5 statement in Albanian. Is that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now when you gave this statement during the last month, in April
8 2007, you had an Albanian interpreter, and after he translated the
9 statement you signed it in English. Is that true?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You didn't get the last statement in Albanian. Is that true?
12 A. It was, yes.
13 Q. But since the interpreter was interpreting what was written down
14 in the Albanian language, in respect what is in that statement you also
15 signed it -- you signed the statement that was just been given -- shown to
16 you by my colleague, whereby you say that everything that is written in
17 the statement is the truth and that it has been told to the best of your
18 recollection. Is that true that you have given such a statement that was
19 shown to you today, that you have seen it and that you have signed it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When the statement was interpreted to you in Albanian, you wished
22 to give a number of additions and changes to the -- to the so-given
24 A. That was about two weeks before coming to the Tribunal.
25 Q. Yes. And then you gave numerous statements, clarifications, and
1 amendments to your previous statement; is that true?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Before providing these changes, the Prosecutor showed you various
4 documents, which you commented and then you -- you provided additions and
5 changes to them; is that true?
6 A. Yes, it's true.
7 Q. And the comments that you gave, you signed personally; is that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mr. Ismaili, a while ago my learned colleague asked you about what
11 you have heard and where was the sound of shelling coming from? That is
12 to say, from what positions was Ljuboten shelled when you heard it for the
13 first time? Do you remember being asked that?
14 You remember then my colleague asked you could you tell us where
15 was Ljuboten shelled from on 10th of August?
16 A. On the 10th of August, there was shooting from all over, from
17 Delba, from Shulan. We couldn't even know, it was confusing. It was from
18 all around the village, shooting and shelling. We couldn't identify
19 because the shelling was coming from all over.
20 Q. All right. That's what I understood. You answered the same to
21 the questions of my colleague the Prosecutor.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask that the witness is
23 shown our document 65 ter 1D96, page 1D1350, which became Prosecutor's
24 number P219.1.
25 Q. Could you see at the bottom of this page your signature?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd ask also that the witness be
3 shown 1D356 because that's the Macedonian translation so the witness -- he
4 already has it, okay, thanks.
5 Q. So that is the statement you have given and you have signed, 23rd
6 of April, 2007 in Ljuboten. And in point 3 of your statement it said that
7 it was on Friday, 10th of August, at 9.00 in the morning when the shelling
8 of the village started from the place called Delba which is on the north
9 side of the village. "I was in my father's house when the shell hit the
10 first floor of his house."
11 Is that written here?
12 A. Yes, that's what it writes here, but we couldn't know whether it
13 came from Delba, from Shulan. It came from all around. We couldn't
14 identify the right side when the shelling. There was shelling from all
16 Q. Thank you for your clarification. But at the question of my
17 learned colleague you said, and you confirmed it to me as well, that on
18 the 23rd of April, 2007 you gave a number of additions and changes to your
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I ask that the witness is
21 shown P290.2 -- P219.2.
22 Q. That is also the statement that you saw a while ago and that you
23 have signed. Is that true? And that was on the 23rd of April in
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And at that time you gave a large number of changes. That is,
2 these changes were -- are presented in 12 points. I asked --
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I ask that page that is our number
4 65 ter number 1D97, 1D1366. The same Prosecutor's number, but I don't
5 know what page it is according to the Prosecutor's way of observing
6 things, so it's easier for me to read the Defence number. That may be
7 page 5 of the document, but ...
8 Q. You can recognise your signature on this page. Is that true?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And as can you see in the third paragraph counted top down, you
11 provided 12 paragraphs of changes to your previous statement, is that
12 correct, that are contained in five pages of text?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But you never mentioned nor you have provided any comment to point
15 3 whereby you said that on Friday, 10th of August, 2001, the shelling
16 started from the place called Delba; is that correct?
17 A. I explained here before the shooting came from Delba, Shulan,
18 Kitka, all around. Maybe there are mistakes in the changes. Maybe the
19 translators made some errors, because I have noticed some errors in the
21 Q. All right. Thank you. Nevertheless, you could agree with me,
22 that the statement that you gave today before the Court and the
23 clarification that you have provided differs from what you have said in
24 your previous statement. Is that true?
25 A. No.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, could I just draw your attention to
2 paragraph 2, numbered 2, of the additions and corrections. I think it
3 deals specifically with paragraph 3 of the original statement. Perhaps
4 you've overlooked it. The last sentence may be relevant to what you're
5 dealing with.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
7 Yes, there is a clarification different from the way that I asked the
8 witness. I apologise. But it emerged from the direct examination and the
9 way the witness insisted on the questions that my learned colleague asked.
10 Maybe I did not make the right comparison, since that clarification was
11 not as clear as what he said today, that the shooting came from all sides.
12 Thank you, and I apologise.
13 Q. Mr. Ismaili, tell me, is it correct that the first statement on
14 the events was given to the investigating judge of the Basic Court II in
15 Skopje by you?
16 A. Can you please ask your question more explicitly.
17 Q. Tell me, is it correct that the first time you spoke about the
18 events in Ljuboten on the 12th of August in your statement to the
19 investigating judge of the Basic Court of Skopje II on the date, 14th of
20 August, 2001, in Skopje?
21 A. They didn't ask. I just signed the text. I signed the text.
22 They forced me to sign the text because of the ill-treatment, so -- I was
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would you now show the witness 65
1 ter number 1D100, page 1D1384; and English 1D1386.
2 Q. These are the minutes about the interrogation of a person on whom
3 an investigation is started, and -- or requested and where it is written
4 participants or present, the name of the investigating judge
5 Jovan Lazarovski is written. Is that the judge who questioned you?
6 A. I don't know him. He didn't introduce himself, what he was, a
7 judge or whatever.
8 Q. Is your name written, name and last name written further in the
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When you look at this text here which contains various data, are
12 the data noted here, the data related to you, and are they accurately
13 entered here?
14 A. Yes, they're accurate.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask now that the second
16 page of this document is shown. Macedonian 1D1385 and the English is
18 Q. In the first paragraph here, it can be seen that you were informed
19 about the right to speak in your own language and you stated that you
20 spoke Macedonian language. Do you speak the Macedonian language?
21 A. Yes, it was in Macedonian.
22 Q. You told the judge that you were unemployed and that you had no
23 funds to pay for your attorney. Is it then correct that the court
24 appointed an ex officio attorney, Ljubisa Dimitrov?
25 A. I didn't have any attorneys. My lawyer came to meet only that
1 night, but I wasn't assigned any attorneys. I didn't see any attorneys,
2 in fact.
3 Q. Later your family chose another attorney for you; is that correct?
4 A. On Sunday -- on Tuesday, they -- they sent a lawyer to me. I
5 didn't know who sent him, but he said that his family sent me here to see
6 whether you're alive or not. But then there was no more contact with the
7 lawyer and there was no more need for that.
8 Q. The judge then also cautioned you that you had the right to remain
9 silent, that you are under no obligation to answer any questions and, as
10 it is stated here, you said that you would not avail yourself of this
11 right; is that correct?
12 A. Is it possible -- it is true.
13 Q. You then described what you wanted to say to the judge, and then
14 you stated -- you described how you came to the court, is that correct,
15 and that you were not an NLA member?
16 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Everything you stated, the court would say out loud and then the
18 typist would enter it into the minutes; is that correct?
19 A. They did not introduce themselves whether there was a registrar or
20 a secretary. They just read out the statement, and I said that I hadn't
21 done anything. And I told them that I had been beaten by the police and
22 then they made me sign these statements. That was the thing.
23 Q. You heard everything that the judge would say to this typist or
24 the secretary as you're saying - I don't know what word you used - you
25 listened, you heard everything that the judge dictated?
1 A. It was a very small room. It wasn't any big courtroom. I only
2 could understand that they sent me to prison for 30 days.
3 Q. But before they sent you to prison for 30 days, as you say, you
4 had no objection on what the typist was writing or against what the judge
5 was dictating for the record; is that correct? You never posed any
7 A. Yes, that's what happened. I told them that I was working in the
8 Radishan, there are witnesses who could testify for that. But they didn't
9 take any action to learn about this.
10 Q. All right. Thank you. From what you have read here now, you did
11 not seek about any ill-treatment at all; is that correct?
12 A. I told the judge about the ill-treatment, about everything. Yes,
13 I did. Yes, I did tell him.
14 Q. When you left the remand prison after you were pardoned, you gave
15 a statement to the representatives of the OSCE; is that correct?
16 A. I don't know about the OSCE. I gave a statement to NATO at the
17 school. Yes, I -- I also gave statements to The Hague authorities but not
18 to the OSCE.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I would like to ask that the
20 witness is shown 65 ter 1D98, Defence exhibit. The page is 1377. If we
21 could zoom it in a bit so that the witness can see.
22 Q. Do you see under the number 15 that your name and last name are
23 written here?
24 A. The first name is not seen well here, but the last name, yes.
25 Q. Maybe this first part of "Mamut" is not very legible. UT is
2 A. You can't see the M and the A from the first name there.
3 Q. Tell me, there is no other person by the name the Mamut Ismaili in
4 Ljuboten. You are the only one.
5 A. Yes, yes, it is only me. Well, there are other people with this
6 family name but with this first name, no.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask now that this witness
8 is shown page number 1D1378, which should be the content of your
10 Q. You, under the number noted here, you have given it to the
11 representatives of the OSCE on the 10th of January, 2002. Do you remember
12 that soon after new year 2002 you gave a statement to the representatives
13 of the OSCE?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder, Ms. Residovic, whether it would be
16 convenient to pursue that tomorrow. If you're at a critical point, if you
17 feel there is a question or two that you should put now you may, but we
18 have reached the hour.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your
20 indulgence, two questions to finish with this document so that we do not
21 return to it again.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 Q. Although you say you do not remember this document precisely, but
25 as you can see it is in this document that you speak for the first time
1 that this happened in the Butel police station, that there were you and
2 six other inhabitants of Ljuboten, that your documents were reviewed
3 again, et cetera, that some money were taken and it is written here that
4 you were, in a way, ill-treated. At the bottom of this statement of yours
5 where you have explained for the first time of having been ill-treated
6 there is a note about the injuries provided by the representatives of the
7 OSCE. It is stated here that you complain of pains in your knees and in
8 your legs.
9 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
11 MR. NEUNER: Before the witness answers, the witness has said that
12 he doesn't recognise having given a statement to the OSCE, and the
13 statement -- the question just put to the witness is a kind of compound
14 question as well. So if my learned colleague could maybe lay a foundation
15 but the witness has said he doesn't recall having given such a statement.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has
17 recognised his name in the list of persons questioned by the OSCE and this
18 is why I'm trying to refresh his memory using details from his statement.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I think you will have to do it tomorrow. I know
20 you were hoping to finish with the statement, but we're now well over
22 Mr. Ismaili, we must finish now and we continue tomorrow at 2.15.
23 I would ask you to return in time to continue your evidence then.
24 We adjourn now for the evening.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of
2 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.