1 Thursday, 24 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 Could I remind you, Mr. Ismaili, of the affirmation you made at
8 the beginning of your evidence which still applies.
9 Ms. Residovic.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
11 WITNESS: MAMUT ISMAILI [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ismaili.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to
16 show the witness a document we had on the e-court yesterday. The name was
17 a bit illegible, so I will ask the witness to put it on the ELMO so that
18 he could tell us whether that is really his name. That was our document,
19 1D98, the page 1D1377.
20 Q. Mr. Ismaili, you had the same document on the screen yesterday.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I still don't see it on our screen
23 Thank you.
24 Q. Can you see now under the -- in the item 15, can you see and
25 recognise your name and last name?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Before your name, after the number 15, there
3 is the number that OSCE used for the persons that he took statements from.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask now again to
5 show the witness our number 1D98, but the page 1D1378 this time.
6 Q. As you can see, sir, here, on the very top in the second line,
7 there is again the same number that corresponded to your name on the
8 previous page, and beneath it the statement that you gave to the OSCE is
9 written. Does it remind you that on the 10th of January, 2002 you have
10 indeed given a statement to the OSCE representatives when you complained
11 to them also about the pains in your knees and legs?
12 A. Can you bring it closer so that I can see it better. Please can
13 you zoom in.
14 Q. This document is written in the English language and it contains,
15 you see here, the quotation marks and there is your statement where it
16 says what has happened to you. I will briefly summarize what you have
17 stated in your statement to the Prosecutor that you were stopped at the
18 check-point, that you were taken to the police station Butel, that you
19 were ill treated there, and that you were taken to the Karpos police
20 station later, that you were beaten with baseball bats by the reservists
21 there, and that on Tuesdays at 2200 hours you were taken to court and all
22 the other things that you already testified about in your statement to the
23 Prosecutor. The only thing I'm asking you is whether this remind you now
24 that you have given a statement to the OSCE on the 10th of January, 2002.
25 A. I have given this declaration, but I'm not sure whether it was
1 OSCE or The Hague, I'm not sure which one. I know that I gave this
2 statement, yes. I was beaten up, I was maltreated and also I was taken to
3 the Karpos police station, I was taken to the court. So everything which
4 is written here is true. Because of --
5 Q. Mr. Ismaili, excuse me, but let me ask you this also. Do you
6 remember, did you give a statement once only to some international
7 representatives or was it that you gave a statement twice?
8 A. I don't remember the declarations from 2001, from 2002 up to now.
9 I have been looking after my own business. Then somebody came at home and
10 they told me to go somewhere to give the statements. I told them what I
11 experienced and then I came back to my family, so ...
12 Q. Do you remember that you complained also of the pains that you
13 felt in your knees and your legs?
14 A. Yes, I remember, but I don't know who the people to whom I talked
15 were, whether they were from The Hague or somebody else. This I don't
17 Q. At the bottom of this document it is written that you were
18 complaining of pains in your knees and legs but also it is concluded that
19 no bruises or any other injuries are visible.
20 A. Yes. I had the pains and all the scratches on the back of my
22 Q. So you can confirm that the persons questioning you could not see
23 on you any scars or some other injuries?
24 A. I don't remember. I have pain in the leg even today that I speak
25 to you.
1 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. We will now move to other issues
2 that you testified about in your statement.
3 You stated that on that Sunday around 9.00 heard shelling again;
4 is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. Around 1.00, you decided to leave the village, since you noticed
7 that numerous families are leaving the village already; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Somewhere about 300 metres before the check-point at the location
10 that you marked yesterday, you were stopped by the police, you were
11 searched, and later you were let to continue your way to the check-point;
12 is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Apart from the persons in camouflage uniforms, you could also see
15 many civilians with various objects in their hands.
16 A. I did not see civilians. I saw only people in uniforms, probably
17 there were peasants with us. But we could not see who were there,
18 exactly. It was, you know, full of noise and confusion there.
19 Q. When you say there was a lot of noise and confusion, could you
20 agree with me if I say that more than a thousand people were walking from
21 Ljuboten towards Skopje and that more than thousand people from the other
22 side or from the neighbouring villages were also there in that area?
23 A. There were only civilians from Ljuboten. We went towards Shkup.
24 There were no people from other villages; there were only peasants from
25 Ljuboten there.
1 Q. Thank you. When you were taken to court you described yesterday in
2 detail also while answering my questions everything that took place there.
3 Tell me, is it correct if I say that you don't know at all to what
4 body is the police that is located in the court building attached; is that
6 A. The Macedonian court.
7 Q. You don't know who were the superiors above the officers who are
8 located, stationed in the court; is that correct?
9 A. No, I don't know. We were actually kept in situations in which we
10 could not see people who were around. Our head was down. We could not
11 see where they had taken us. We didn't know.
12 Q. Maybe I didn't ask my question well. Once you were at the court,
13 you stated that you have seen some police officers there in the court.
14 So my question is: Is it correct that you have no idea who are
15 the superior officers above those police officers in the court building.
16 You don't know that; is that correct?
17 A. No, I don't know.
18 Q. You have also testified about the events that took place when you
19 were taken to the Sutka prison. You also don't know what are the bodies
20 superior above the prison of Sutka, who should perform the controlled
21 supervision over the prison. You don't know that; is that correct?
22 A. No, I don't know. I don't know who they were.
23 Q. And you don't know either to which body are the prison guards in
24 the Sutka prison attached and who is their superior body; is that correct?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Superior officer or
2 A. I don't know. I know that it was Sutka prison, a prison of
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you. When you were pardoned and released from remand
6 prison, you never went to report what has happened to you and you never
7 told your story about the events on the 12th of August to the police or to
8 a judge; is that correct?
9 A. We were not secure in order to lodge a complaint. We did not feel
11 Q. You could confirm before this Court that up to the present day
12 neither you nor people you know are ready to respond to the summons from
13 the police; is that correct?
14 A. We have received nothing, no request from the police.
15 Q. You personally never received anything; is that correct?
16 A. Nothing, nothing.
17 Q. All right. Thank you very much.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed my
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Apostolski.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Distinguished witness Mamut Ismaili, my name is
25 Antonio Apostolski and together with my colleague Jasmina Zivkovic, we
1 represent Johan Tarculovski. I will ask you several questions related to
2 the events between the 10th and the 12th of August, 2001.
3 You have completed primary education in your native language, the
4 Albanian, is that correct?
5 A. Yes, until the 8th grade.
6 Q. In 1989, you served a conscription military service in Novi Sad;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes, 1989, Novi Sad, yes, I did the army there.
9 Q. In which army branch were you serving? Could you tell me that?
10 A. Infantry. I was in infantry.
11 Q. So you were trained in handling infantry weapons; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, yes, I did.
13 Q. On the Sunday morning, you were at the Ljuboten village on the
14 12th of August, 2001; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, I was in the village.
16 Q. On Sunday morning at 9.00, the shelling of the village started and
17 you went into a cellar and you stayed there until 1.00; is that correct?
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is asking the counsel to do
19 something about the headset because we have an echo and we can't hear the
20 witness clearly.
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
22 Q. On Sunday morning at 9.00, the shelling of the village started and
23 you took shelter in the -- in a basement, all the way until 1.00; is that
25 A. I was in my house with my family. I was there in the cellar.
1 Q. At 1.00, you joined the line walking towards Skopje; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. While you were walking within that line, the Macedonian security
5 forces were shooting at the line moving towards Skopje.
6 A. There were shots. We did not know where the shooting was coming
7 from. We wanted to go to Shkup as soon as possible, that was our purpose.
8 Q. Was your line shot at by the security forces and was someone hit?
9 A. Not there where I was, no. We wanted to leave as soon as
11 Q. All right. Thank you. After that you were taken to the Butel
12 police station and from Butel police station you were taken to the police
13 station Karpos; is that correct?
14 A. [No interpretation]
15 Q. At the Karpos police station, you -- they gave you paraffin
16 gloves. This is a test to a certain presence of powder particles; is that
18 A. Paraffin is not true. They took me to the room. My hands were
19 up. I don't know what they did with my hands. My head was down and it
20 wanted to pull me in one direction or another. I'm not sure whether it
21 was paraffin or not. But this is indeed what I experienced.
22 Q. Did you they tell you that this is a test ascertain presence of
23 particles of gunpowder on your hands?
24 A. No, nobody asked me that question. They took me to the basement
25 and they kept me there. They asked no questions.
1 Q. From the Karpos police station, you were taken to the court where
2 you gave a statement before an investigating judge in the presence of your
3 attorney; is that correct?
4 A. I'm not sure whether I had an attorney. I was in the room.
5 Nobody was introduced as an attorney. I had no attorney there.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown his
7 statement, P52, page 18.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE PARKER: It appears, Mr. Apostolski, there's going to be a
10 little delay until a technician finds what the problem is in displaying.
11 I'm sorry about that.
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we use the same evidence --
13 the same exhibit, 1D100/1384. That's the one.
14 Q. Do you see that statement in front of you?
15 A. Yes, I can see it. I can see the signature, yes.
16 Q. Okay. You've told the investigating judge that on that day that
17 you were not a NLA member nor you are a member to another organisation,
18 that that morning you were working in Radisani where you worked as a
19 construction master and you were -- but then the judge did not trust your
20 statement and you were assigned to go in remand prison, although you told
21 him that you had two witnesses that you were in Radisani. Is that
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. You said a little time ago that you were in Ljuboten throughout
25 the Sunday, all day Sunday on August 12th, and now you confirm that at
1 12.00 on Sunday you were in Radisani where you did some construction work.
2 What is the truth, Witness?
3 A. The truth is on Wednesday and Thursday, I worked in Radishan.
4 There are some people there who were witness, there are three people who
5 are witness who worked together with me. We worked in Radishan on
6 Wednesday and Thursday. I don't know what they have said now.
7 Q. I just pointed out that on your statement you said that on the
8 12th of August, 2001 you have said that you've been Radisani and that you
9 have two witnesses about it and I just pointed out to you that you
10 previously said that you had been in the Ljuboten village. I'm just
11 asking you now what is the truth.
12 A. This is not true. I'm telling you the truth now, namely that
13 Wednesday, Thursday, I worked in Radishan. Friday, I couldn't go there,
14 neither did I on Saturday and Sunday. So only on Wednesday and Thursday,
15 I worked there.
16 Q. Okay, thank you. Is it true that charges were filed against you
17 in relation to the Ljuboten events on 12th of August, 2001?
18 A. Can you repeat the question, please.
19 Q. Is it true that the Skopje prosecutor's office filed charges
20 against you in relation to the events in Ljuboten from 12th of August,
22 A. Yes, it's true. But I didn't do anything, nothing at all. It is
23 true that they pressed charges against me.
24 Q. Is it true that the president, Boris Trajkovski, pardoned you as a
25 NLA member, and that's how the procedure against you ended?
1 A. This is not true. It was a pardon. We weren't in the NLA, I
2 never was a member of the NLA. It was just a pardon.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.
7 Ms. Residovic.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I
9 forgot to propose at the end to have this 65 ter 1D100 to be tendered in
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D10, Your Honours.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, today you actually used 1D98.
16 Yesterday you had 1D100. So that the document identified and probably the
17 one that you should tender is 1D98.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I said that I
19 didn't propose at the end of my questioning to have this record tendered
20 into evidence. It is true that I used it with the witness yesterday.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Can we have 1D98 and then 1D100 on the screen,
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is the document that I showed
24 to witness yesterday. It consists of two pages, so it's got 1D384 and
25 385; that is the Macedonian version. And the English version was 1D1386,
2 JUDGE PARKER: And the second page.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Second English page is 1D1387.
4 And the Macedonian is 1D1385.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE PARKER: This is the document you wish to tender?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: As Exhibit 1D10.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:
14 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. I have a few questions in relation to the statement that you gave
17 in Skopje Court II in August 2001.
18 Before you entered the room where the judge and the typist were
19 sitting, were you beaten?
20 A. Before entering the court, we were beaten. They were -- we were
21 asked to keep our hands behind our backs and they beat us greatly.
22 Q. And for how long did they beat you greatly?
23 A. I can't tell you exactly for how long. Maybe one hour it was.
24 But to us it seemed like it was three or five hours, because of the great
25 pains we suffered.
1 Q. And how were the persons dressed who were beating you?
2 A. I couldn't look at them because our heads were down. We were not
3 allowed to look up at them.
4 Q. If I can go back for a second to the statement which was put to
5 you by my learned colleague, 1D98. It says here: "We waited" --
6 MR. NEUNER: The ERN of the page is N002-1109. If, please, the
7 fifth paragraph could be zoomed in.
8 Q. I'm reading it to you so that it gets translated, since it is in
9 English. "We waited" --
10 "On Tuesday at 2200 hours, we were taken to courts. We waited
11 three hours in one corridor where several reservists beat us. One
12 policewoman stepped on our feet with her high heels."
13 Is this an adequate description of what happened in the corridor?
14 A. It is an adequate description of what happened in the corridor.
15 Q. You're referring here to a policewoman. Why do you believe it was
16 a policewoman?
17 A. She was a female, that's why.
18 Q. And why did you think she was in the police?
19 A. I didn't ask her what she was and who she was.
20 Q. But you said here in your statement she was from the police. But
21 why do you think she was from the police?
22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. The witness has
24 already answered.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, Mr. Neuner.
1 MR. NEUNER:
2 Q. I'm just asking for clarification. You said she was from the
3 police. What did this woman wear to the best of your recollection today?
4 A. She was dressed in uniform. That's why. But I didn't look at her
5 carefully. Nobody allowed me to look up at her. I told you, we were
6 keeping our heads low, but on -- I only saw that she was a female and she
7 was cursing us all the time for no reason at all and beating us.
8 Q. Thank you. In the same paragraph, because you were asked by my
9 learned friend about being represented by a lawyer, it states that there
10 was a private lawyer hired or contacted by your family but he arrived to
11 court when all legal procedure had already finished; is that correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. My learned colleague also asked you about scars and bruises you
14 suffered. On page 3, line 22 of the transcript, you said: "I had pains
15 and scratches on the back of my body."
16 How long were these scratches on your back visible?
17 A. They were visible for four months.
18 Q. And you received them in the events in mid-August?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So if we can please scroll in this statement to the very top, the
21 statement which is in front of you, I'm referring to ID98 [sic]. So this
22 statement is given by you on the 10th of January, 2002. At that time,
23 they were no longer visible?
24 A. No, no, I did not have any scratches.
25 Q. At that point in time?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Ismaili, you will be pleased to know that that
6 concludes the questions that will be asked of you. The Chamber would like
7 to thank you for your going to the lengths of coming to The Hague and for
8 the assistance that you have been able to give to us, and you are now able
9 to return to your home. Thank you very much.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to thank you, Your Honour,
11 for making it possible for me to come here. I wish you success in your
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Am I correct in anticipating, Mr. Neuner, or
15 Mr. Saxon, or Ms. Motoike, whichever, that the next witness has protective
17 MR. SAXON: That is correct, Your Honour. And the witness will be
18 lead by Ms. Motoike.
19 JUDGE PARKER: The issue is one of timing. It takes 20 minutes to
20 prepare the technical equipment. I think what we should do to be most
21 efficient in our use of time is to have the first break now, resuming at
22 3.35 and we will then have two almost hour and a half sessions to the end
23 of the day.
24 So we will adjourn now until 3.35.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.06 p.m.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 --- On resuming at 3.38 p.m.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud
4 the affirmation on the card that is given to you now.
5 Are you now receiving that in your language? Thank you. Would
6 you please read aloud the affirmation on the card that is given to you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS M-083
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
12 Ms. Motoike has some questions for you.
13 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.
14 Examination by Ms. Motoike:
15 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 MS. MOTOIKE: Can I please have the usher's assistance in
18 providing the witness with a document that bears ERN 0608-7695-0608-7695.
19 Q. Witness, could you please take a look at this piece of paper.
20 Without reading it aloud, could you tell us whether the information
21 contained in that paper is correct.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, perhaps after my learned colleagues
25 have had a chance to look at this piece of paper and if they have no
1 objections I would ask to tender it under seal, please.
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received, under seal.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P224, Your Honours.
4 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
5 Q. Witness, you have been granted protective measures which means
6 that you have face and voice distortion. That is, your face and your
7 voice will be distorted for the public. You're also not being referred to
8 not by your true name but by a pseudonym which is M-083 which we will
9 refer to you as during the proceedings, or by "Witness". Do you
10 understand this?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, to assist the Trial Chamber, because
13 there are a number of documents I will be seeking to tender with this
14 particular witness, we have made hard copies in a binder for today's
15 proceedings. If we could have those distributed, please.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
17 MS. MOTOIKE:
18 Q. Witness, in 2001, were you an active police officer in the
19 Macedonian police force?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we go into private session,
23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 1376-1402 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. M-083.
9 A. Good day.
10 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, and together with my colleague,
11 Guenael Mettraux, I am the counsel for Mr. Ljube Boskoski.
12 Before I move to the questions, from your data here I see that you
13 speak and understand the language that I'm -- use, so I would like to
14 kindly ask you when I ask the question, wait a while until the question is
15 interpreted so that the Chamber and the colleagues in the courtroom could
16 also follow what I'm asking and so that they could follow your answers.
17 Did you understand this?
18 A. I understood.
19 Q. You gave your personal data to my learned colleague the Prosecutor
20 and I would only like to ask you whether it is correct that you were born
21 and you live in Skopje?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In Skopje, you completed secondary school and after the
24 conscription military service you were unemployed for two years; is that
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-083, that at that time in Macedonia the
3 unemployment was a huge problem, and that the young people, once
4 graduating from the school they would wait for many years until they find
5 employment; is that correct?
6 A. It is correct.
7 Q. Could you agree with me that the duration of the wait for a job or
8 the speed of finding a job was not related to the national affiliation of
9 the individual but, rather, to the education that a person had and the
10 need of the economy and other bodies for certain professional profiles; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Are you asking about any religion and nationality in our state in
13 relation to employment and education, or are you strictly highlighting
14 some of them?
15 Q. I want to ask whether there was any discrimination, as far as you
16 know, with regards to the employment on the basis of national affiliation,
17 or the length of waiting actually depended on the professional skills of
18 the persons waiting for employment.
19 A. Professional skills, as well as unemployment and demand for
21 Q. At that time, one can also say that the situation exists even
22 today in the Republic of Macedonia. Many people would go abroad to find a
23 job; is that correct?
24 A. I do not know precisely, but mostly they do that also.
25 Q. Mr. M-083, previously in 2004 you gave a statement to the
1 investigator of the ICTY; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. On the 20th of May of this year, when you arrived to The Hague,
4 you then made certain addenda and corrections to the previously given
5 statement; is that correct?
6 A. Correction to my original first statement, is that what you're
7 asking me about?
8 Q. Yes. Did you then give certain corrections and additions to a
9 statement you have given previously.
10 A. Small additions and some change.
11 Q. Thank you. In those changes, when asked whether you gave a
12 statement voluntarily, you stated that actually you were not giving it
13 voluntarily but since you were summonsed, you believed that you needed to
14 respond to the summons and then give a statement. Is that what you said
15 to the investigator?
16 A. I have responded to the summons as I should, as any normal citizen
17 or as any member of our forces.
18 Q. So when you were giving your statement, in your opinion, no force
19 or coercion was used, just as a proper citizen you responded to the
20 summons; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But what you wanted to say is that before that summons that is
23 sent threatening that you would you brought there by force if do not
24 respond voluntarily, before that, nobody asked you whether you wanted
25 voluntarily to talk to the investigators of the Prosecutor or not.
1 A. I understood it as a duty, as an obligation to respond to the
3 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you now when you came to give a
4 statement to the investigator, could you tell us, how long was the
5 interview you then had with the ICTY investigator?
6 A. Between 9.00 in the morning and 17, 1800 hours.
7 Q. In the course of the interview with the investigator
8 Thomas Kuehnel, you had an interpreter who interpreted the contents of
9 your conversation with the investigator; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. But is it correct that still what you were saying was not entered
12 into the minutes immediately? Only at the end of that interview the
13 minutes were composed, the minutes of that questioning, and then you
14 signed the minutes. Is that correct?
15 A. The minutes were served at the end of the interview and then it
16 was signed by me.
17 Q. You signed your statement in the English language, language you
18 did not understand, but the contents of that text were translated to you;
19 is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And until the moment you arrived to The Hague, you were never
22 given that written statement in your native language; is that correct?
23 A. Not until the arrival here, yes.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering that we
25 changed the time for the break, I do not know whether an hour and a half
1 has passed or could I continue.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Another ten minutes.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Now I would like to ask to move into private session.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
6 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-083, that most of the duties that I have
12 enumerated you were performing as a uniformed police officer; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Uniformed police officers in the Republic of Macedonia, pursuant
16 to the law, were the authorised officials, and their rights, duties and
17 responsibilities were based on the law; is that conclusion correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. While you were working in the traffic police, you had also
20 competences based on the Law on the Interior, Law on the Criminal
21 Procedure, but also Law on the Safety of Traffic on Roads?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In order to maybe clarify those competences that you had, is it
24 correct that based on the competences bestowed to you by the law as an
25 authorised official you were able to stop any person that would violate the
1 traffic ordinances, you could then issue a warning for that person, decide
2 and impose, collect a fine immediately, or write a criminal report against
3 that person? Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, and also detain persons.
5 Q. Regarding that part of the work when you find an offence, you did
6 not need any special order because this was your authentic right and
7 competence granted to you -- prescribed in the law for you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If you or your colleagues who worked with you, this time we took
10 the example of the traffic police, if it would happen that the traffic
11 accident had grave consequences so it would constitute a criminal offence,
12 you would then inform the duty officer in the police station, that officer
13 would inform the duty operational centre, 92, and the duty centre informed
14 the investigating judge and the prosecutor. Is that the mode in which you
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At the moment when, in the way that you have just indicated, the
18 investigating judge would be informed, is it then correct that all further
19 decisions about the procedure were made by the investigating judge and the
20 police assisted. In actuality, it performed his or her orders and tasks
21 given; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, regarding grave criminal offences with the help of an
23 investigating team in the Republic of Macedonia.
24 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-083, that the investigating judge would order
25 that an investigating team is established and then with that investigating
1 team, it would go on to the scene where the alleged crime took place and
2 then an investigation would be performed; is that correct?
3 A. Could you repeat it.
4 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-083, that the investigating judge, when they
5 are informed by the police, then they order that an investigation team is
6 composed. They are including forensic specialists, doctors, et cetera,
7 and then when they go to the scene, then everybody who is there act only
8 upon the orders of the investigating judge. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I would like to ask you also something else related to the
11 performance and the responsibilities of the police.
12 If I say that it is only the investigating judge the one who could
13 interview someone, someone in a capacity of a witness, then, this
14 statement of mine is correct, and in accordance with the Law on Criminal
15 Procedure in the Republic of Macedonia?
16 A. Investigating judge can ask. His competences, I do not know to
17 that extent, maybe he could do the interviewing with witnesses or without
18 witnesses also.
19 Q. Is it correct that the police could only gather some information
20 from the citizens and it could never interview or interrogate the citizen
21 as a witness; is that correct?
22 A. The police do receive information from citizens and then? Further
23 in the sentence?
24 Q. I apologise. Maybe I was insufficiently clear.
25 The police, pursuant to the Law on the Interior and the Law on the
1 Criminal Procedure in the Republic of Macedonia, could just have an
2 information hearing with persons to then compile an Official Note about it
3 and then submit it to the prosecutor. My question is; is that correct;
4 and is it correct --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- that you as police officers will no right to interrogate
7 someone in the capacity of a witness. That was an authority belonging to
8 the judge only; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. Our task is to deal only with gathering of data and
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe ...
13 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the second break now and resume at
15 --- Recess taken at 5.11 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. M-083, is it true that in the city of Skopje, the police
20 stations that were within the city of Skopje were within the competences
21 of the department of the interior of the municipality. For example,
22 Centar, Cair, Kisela Voda, et cetera?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. While in the city of Skopje, which is a big city and is the
25 capital of the republic, the department of the interior of these
1 municipalities were within the sector of the interior of the city of
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you agree with me, Mr. M-083, that practically all police
5 affairs, tasks and authorisations provided in the Law of the Interior and
6 in the other laws were actually executed within the departments in the
7 municipalities and the sectors for the interior in the city of Skopje?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask to move into a
10 private session, please.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
12 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is it correct that PSOLO is also one of the police stations, and
1 that is an acronym that in the Macedonian means a police station for
2 securing persons and buildings?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is it true that the police stations in the municipalities had
5 their primary tasks to provide the security of the citizens of the public
6 law and order, while the PSOLO was in charge to provide security to the
7 persons and the securities, for example, the security of the president,
8 the president of the government, ministers, diplomates that were in Skopje
9 and also various buildings, such as the parliaments, the building of the
10 government, the embassies, the post office, the television, et cetera. Is
11 that correct?
12 A. It is true all but the post office and the television. They could
13 only be secured by the municipalities where they were located.
14 Q. Thank you. Are you aware, Mr. M-083, that at the top, so to say,
15 of the entire structure of the public security, so at the top of the
16 professional line, both of the civilian and uniformed police was a
17 director of the public security of the Ministry of the Interior?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it true that the director for public security was -- was
20 appointed by the government of the Republic of Macedonia?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are you aware, and is that correct, that also within the structure
23 of the Ministry of the Interior was the state security headed by the
24 director for state security?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Also the director of the state security was also appointed by the
2 government of the Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I would like to ask you now something else, which is again linked
5 to the execution of your duties as a police officer in the police stations
6 and also on the other duties.
7 Is it true if I were to say that you, in carrying out your duties
8 pursuant to the law, also executed the duties based on the orders of your
9 immediate superiors?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When I say "your immediate superiors," could that be understood as
12 on the basis of the orders of the commander of your police station, his
13 deputy, the head of the shift, the officer on duty, or the head of the
14 department of -- for the interior? Would it be the circle of persons that
15 would give orders to you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In your career you have never done it, and this is also not normal
18 in the work of the police, you never received nor you were able to receive
19 an order directly from the Ministry of Interior of the republic, so from
20 that part of the ministry that is directly connected to the minister; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Only my superiors in the police station.
23 Q. Did I understand well: You only received orders from your
24 superiors in the police station; am I right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I could conclude from this that it would be absolutely wrong to
2 say that as a police officer you could receive an order from the minister?
3 A. I can't.
4 Q. Once you complete your duty, you and all the other police officers
5 would write either Official Notes or reports and please tell me, is that
6 correct that your reports about the execution of duties, you only
7 submitted to your superiors in the police station; that is to say, in the
8 department of the Cair municipality?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I can conclude from this that you never given oral or written
11 reports to the Ministry of Interior or to the minister.
12 A. Never directly to the minister, only to the immediate superiors
13 from the police station.
14 Q. Thank you. Answering the questions of my learned colleague, the
15 Prosecutor, you spoke about the regular and the reserve forces of the
16 police. Since the duties you mentioned carrying out probably do not give
17 me the right to ask you about it in greater detail, so I will just ask few
18 general questions to see whether some things could be made clearer.
19 Is it correct that in normal circumstances outside of a crisis all
20 the police duties are carried out by the regular police; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Within the department of the interior, those duties are carried
23 out by the uniformed police but also police working in civilian clothes,
24 that is, more -- mainly the criminal police; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All those police officers are regularly employed and receive a
2 salary for their work; is that true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But is it correct that all citizens of a mature age, of an adult
5 age, after serving the military service are deployed in some reserve
6 duties so in -- so to be used in crisis situations or war; is that true?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is it correct that a part of the people who have completed their
9 military service are deployed in the reserve forces of the Macedonian
10 army, another part is deployed in the reserve forces of the police, while
11 some of them are in the civilian protection or in their company. Is that
12 the way these things are organised according to the laws of the Republic
13 of Macedonia?
14 A. Yes. Unless for the civilian protection, I'm not really
15 knowledgeable about it.
16 Q. Are you aware that all these duties and the way for the
17 organisation of the reserve forces is also regulated by the laws of the
18 Republic of Macedonia?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Let me ask you now: As a police officer at that time, do you know
21 that in 1999, during the NATO campaign on Kosovo, a part of the reserve
22 force was called, part of the police reservists were called to assist in
23 securing of the safety of around 300.000 refugees that came to Macedonia
24 from Kosovo? If you know that, can you answer; otherwise, if you have no
25 personal knowledge about it, I will understand it as well.
1 A. At that time (redacted), so I had no close
2 contacts with the other police stations but the police duties as an active
3 police officer. But it is possible. ?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since line 13 of page 60, the
5 witness mentioned the time in which he was working on a certain position,
6 which potentially might reveal his identity, I'd like to ask that the
7 words (redacted) are redacted from the transcript.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. But, Mr. M-083, as a citizen of Macedonia, as a police officer,
11 you probably know that in the spring of 2001 because of the terrorist
12 attacks of the Albanian groups in the Republic of Macedonia there was a
13 significant crisis situation.
14 A. Yes, there was a crisis situation at that time.
15 Q. Are you aware that because of the terrorist attacks, the president
16 of the country and the Security Council have ordered to call the reserve
17 forces in the army and in the police?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would it be true if I were to say that this situation with the
20 terrorist attacks was actually a great surprise for all the citizens of
21 the Republic of Macedonia, exactly because of the fact that the Republic
22 of Macedonia was the one to intensively help the Kosovo refugees and
23 because of the fact that both in the government and in the parliament
24 Albanian parties were represented as coalition partners?
25 A. Yes. That part of the war looked a bit confusing in that time.
1 Q. Is it correct that although the police and the army were sending
2 regular calls to the reserve forces to fulfil their duties, that people,
3 because they were all taken by surprise and were afraid, they simply would
4 leave the country and just a small number of people would respond to the
5 calls to join the reserve forces?
6 A. Are you asking whether the Macedonian people were leaving the
8 Q. I'll make this question more simple.
9 Do you know that only a small share -- a small percentage of the
10 reserve forces reported to the calls in the first months; reports speak
11 that the turnout was 5 to 10 percent. Do you know anything about it?
12 A. According to the size of the incident at the beginning of the
13 fights, the percentage was not very high, but it increased later on.
14 Q. Thank you. What you just answered, do you know that because of
15 that initial small turnout, there was a public call for the people to
16 report to the police and army units in order to defend its country from
17 the terrorist attacks?
18 A. At the beginning of the fights, it became aware -- it became
19 apparent that only the regular police forces could take care of the
20 business, but then there was this call.
21 Q. Bearing in mind the position that you held, you know that people
22 were called to join the reserve forces in your police station as well; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Probably within the department of the interior there was an
1 official person who was in charge of the procedure -- of the procedure of
2 calling and receiving the reserve forces and the volunteers; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Given the situation of crisis that became complicated mid-year, is
6 it correct that the people that were called or who -- or those who
7 reported upon their own initiative were frequently engaged in the
8 municipalities without going through the entire procedure that was
9 prescribed by the law?
10 A. The reserve forces that were -- that had to go in the police
11 stations but for the volunteers it was the superior officer who was -- who
12 was obliged to check the past, or potential criminal past in order to
13 admit them into the orders of the Ministry of Interior.
14 Q. So that check was not carried out in the police station but in the
15 department of the interior in the municipality; is that true?
16 A. The police stations were within the municipalities, so the
17 superior officer who is in charge of these things is employed in the
18 police station.
19 Q. In respect to the reserve forces I would only ask you one more
20 question, if you would be able to answer it.
21 I'd like to ask you whether it's true that in that times of crisis
22 it was difficult, it was very difficult to maintain full control over all
23 the persons that have reported in the reserve forces of the police. Is
24 that true?
25 A. You know, that is a mass of people, so I don't know what answer
1 should I give to this question. It's not under my competence to know it.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you. We would now go closer to the questions about
3 which my learned colleague the Prosecutor asked you.
4 I would like to ask you now to listen to what I'm about to say
5 that will be a bit longer. If needed, I will repeat or I will break it
6 into several questions, but I would like to know -- I'd like to know about
7 the security situation in the territory of the Cair municipality. So
8 basically if I were to say, Mr. M-083, that in the summer of 2001, the
9 security situation on the Cair municipality territory was complicated
10 because of at least the following reasons: One, the territory was
11 occupied by an ethnically mixed population, about 80 per cent of them were
12 ethnic Albanians; part of the municipality also encompassed the hills of
13 Skopska Crna Gora which was an area that was of strategic importance for
14 the city of Skopje; then because of the fact that above the village of
15 Ljuboten, that is on the territory of Cair municipality there was the old
16 road known as the Sultanov Put which connected the most endangered areas
17 of Kumanovo with the Kosovo border. Then you could agree with me that
18 these are only some of the elements that spoke about the difficult
19 security situation in your municipality.
20 Is it too complicated, or should I break this long question into
21 shorter ones?
22 A. I will try to answer it.
23 The old road connects Kumanovo part and the border towards Serbia,
24 Tanusevci, so Skopska Crna Gora was really a problem of big importance.
25 Q. Is it correct -- is it correct that in the -- that you in the
1 police station had reliable information that the village Ljuboten, located
2 beneath that road, is used as a logistics base for the needs of the NLA?
3 A. Although I was using the (redacted)
4 (redacted), this question is not
5 in my domain to answer. Only the special services could know this.
6 Q. Let's go back a bit. I see that you told me that it was important
7 that this road connected the border of Serbia through Skopska Crna Gora to
8 Kosovo. I would like to ask you now: Did you mention also the border of
9 Serbia? Because during that same time in southern Serbia there were
10 terrorist attacks of various groups of the KLA, in the areas of Priseva
11 [phoen], Podujevo, et cetera?
12 A. The old road above the village of Ljuboten is connected with the
13 area known by the name of Ramno. I know if it is in direction it does
14 connect all the points that have you mentioned.
15 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Motoike.
17 MS. MOTOIKE: May I interrupt for just a second. There is a
18 reference to (redacted) in line 25 of page 64. If we could
19 perhaps redact that, because I believe we're in public session.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It doesn't appear to indicate the nature of the
21 vehicle or ownership.
22 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, can we go into private session so I
23 can elaborate further?
24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
25 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Which is what I should have said. Thank you for
14 understanding me. And it will be redacted.
15 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. M-083, did you as a police officer in that environment have
18 information that one part of the young people from the Ljuboten village
19 joined NLA?
20 A. Could you repeat it?
21 Q. My question was: Did you in the police station have information
22 speaking that part of the young people from Ljuboten, Albanians, joined
24 A. I personally did not have any information because my duty was
25 (redacted). But the other colleagues from the station might have
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] He again mentioned his duty in
3 line 22, so I would like to ask that -- that this (redacted) that
4 is redacted from his answer and from my question.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be redacted.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You said that you --
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to ask that we
9 move into private session now.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 1424-1435 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
8 JUDGE PARKER: We will need to adjourn now for the evening, and we
9 resume tomorrow morning at 9.00. And we would plan to finish this witness
10 and the next tomorrow, so I would ask all counsel to keep that in mind.
11 We must ask you to return tomorrow morning at 9.00 to finish your
12 evidence. Thank you.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day of May,
15 2007, at 9.00 a.m.