1 Friday, 25 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 May we remind you that the affirmation that you made at the
8 beginning of your evidence still applies. No translation for the witness.
9 I reminded you that the affirmation you made at the beginning you
10 have your evidence still applies.
11 Ms. Residovic.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS M-083 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. M-083.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Before I ask you several final questions, I would like to ask you
19 for a clarification with regards to the question I have asked yesterday on
20 page 76 of the unofficial transcript.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters think that the usher's
22 microphone is still on. Could this be checked, please.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. If I understood well, Mr. M-083, you answered that during that
25 time, on the 12th of August, 2001, the captive persons that you took to
1 the Mirkovci police station in -- were in your conviction at that time
2 people who participated in the fights in Ljuboten and who were captured
4 Have I understood your answer well, the one you gave to me
6 A. Yes.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask now that the
9 document is shown the document 65 ter 482.
10 Q. Mr. M-083, is it correct that you know Mr. Blagoja Toskovski,
11 inspector in the OVR Cair?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The document in front of you, as you can see at the top of the
14 document but also at the bottom. The signature was written by the
15 inspector, Toskovski, Blagoja, that is the person about whom you said you
16 knew him?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.
19 MS. MOTOIKE: I don't seem to have an English version of this
20 document on my screen.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Nor do we.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 65 ter 482, Prosecutor's
23 number, while we have the number of the English translation because I
24 don't know whether it is attached to the Prosecutor's list, N005-0466-ET,
25 English translation, if that helps.
1 Thank you. I apologise, Your Honours. We know how we call the
2 English text and the original when we have our own documents, but
3 obviously there is a still a bit of confusion about the list of
4 Prosecutor's evidence and I apologise and I thank my colleague for
5 reminding me of that.
6 Q. Mr. M-083, is it correct that for sometime -- that sometime after
7 the events, you were invited by Mr. Toskovski Blagoja and asked you to
8 explain to him once again the way in which you received and you brought
9 the captives to the Mirkovci police station; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Considering that on the top of the document there is the date 31st
12 of August, 2001, if you could recall, was that actually sometime in
13 August, the time when Inspector Toskovski would invite you.
14 A. That was in the period after the event in Ljuboten, so the month
15 is fine. August.
16 Q. And you explained to Inspector Toskovski, all the things that you
17 testified about yesterday and today before this court; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask now to move into
21 private session.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Can I ask whether this document, before it
23 disappears, is yet an exhibit.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is not, Your Honours, but since
25 it is in the list of the Prosecution, and since the Prosecution will call
1 this witness in accordance with your decision, I think we should return to
2 this document once the witness is here.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Fine. I wanted to know whether there should be an
4 exhibit number reference to it or not, that's all. Thank you.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
6 I would like to ask to move into private session.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
8 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 Q. Is it correct, actually, first I would like to ask you, if I were
3 to tell you while you were still working at the jobs you explained us
4 about, the villagers of Ljuboten did not want to discuss things with the
5 police officers, neither from your police station or other police
6 officers. Not even when they were asked to give some information to the
7 police. Were you aware of that?
8 A. Whenever I would arrive to a police station, I would never hear
9 any such text or any such rumours that somebody would come to discuss
10 things with our colleagues.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
12 witness is shown document P104. English translation, N005-0465.
13 Q. You surely know the inspector Dejan Blazevski who was also working
14 in the criminalistic police of the OVR Cair; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You have in front of you an Official Note composed by this
17 inspector and as you can see below this number, 735, there is a subject
18 conversation conducted with the person Kenan Salievski. The date on the
19 top suggests that this interview took place on the 16th of November, 2001.
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Let me read.
22 Q. Could I ask you a question? Have you read it?
23 A. You may.
24 Q. From the text from the note composed by your colleague, you can
25 see that on the 15th of November, 2001 OVR Cair summons Kenan Salievski to
1 come to the police station and certain data were requested from him. The
2 last sentence of the first paragraph says: "Because of -- therefore it
3 was agreed upon that he was to come the following day on the 16th of
4 November, 2001, and to bring the complete lists."
5 After that, in the last paragraph it is stated: "On the 16th of
6 November, 2001, Kenan Salievski called us by the phone at the department
7 for internal affairs Cair and told us that after having consulted the
8 village board of the village of Ljuboten he cannot give us any information
9 about the event or about the deceased persons."
10 Is this conclusion by the Inspector Blazevski Dejan something that
11 speaks precisely, that the persons from Ljuboten did not want to give any
12 information to the police of Macedonia?
13 A. According to the text, and according to the submitter, yes.
14 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. M-083.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
16 completed the cross-examination of this witness.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
18 Mr. Apostolski.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have given up my
20 time for the benefit of my colleague Ms. Residovic so I'm not going to ask
21 any questions of this witness. Thank you.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
23 Ms. Motoike.
24 MS. MOTOIKE:. Good morning, just a few questions, Your Honours.
25 Re-examination by Ms. Motoike:
1 Q. Good morning witness.
2 Witness, you mentioned that there would be an investigation team
3 in instances where a criminal offence had occurred. Do you have any
4 knowledge as to whether or not any policeman from Cair was ever
5 disciplined for any of the events in Ljuboten?
6 A. Whether someone has been punished, I don't know, but that's far
7 beyond my competences. Only the head and the chief can do that.
8 Q. Thank you. You spoke of the execution of duties based on orders
9 from your immediate superiors in 2001. Where did your superiors in that
10 time-period, in 2001, get their orders from?
11 A. Only from the Ministry of Interior or in consultation between the
12 officers, depending on the problem they're facing.
13 Q. And in 2001, would you ever carry out an order or a operation--
14 I'm sorry. Would you ever carry out an operation without an order from
15 your immediate superiors?
16 A. In addition to (redacted), I had no other tasks.
17 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may that be redacted, please.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
19 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
20 Q. You also mentioned yesterday a director -- sorry. You also
21 mentioned yesterday -- I'm sorry, Your Honours if I wasn't specific. It
22 would be the reference to the (redacted). Thank you.
23 You also mentioned yesterday that a director of public security
24 within the Ministry of Interior -- you referenced that position. Did This
25 person -- or who did this person receive his or her orders from, if you
2 A. I cannot give you such an answer, but I can only tell you that the
3 director could issue orders by himself to the police stations and to the
4 others without requesting the opinion from the ministry.
5 Q. And I'm looking at the transcript and I'm seeing now that I don't
6 know if you actually answered my question.
7 In 2001, would you ever carry out an operation without an order
8 from your immediate superior?
9 A. During the conflict in Ljuboten I had no other duties in my
10 position. After I stopped (redacted), in November, as well as the
11 other police officers, I was also carrying out other duties, so there was
12 nothing else that I would do.
13 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours --
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the entire answer should be
15 redacted now, I think it would be in order to ask these questions in a
16 private session, so the sense of the question and the answer would be
17 known then.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Redaction is needed. You can tend to
19 proceed in public?
20 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, perhaps given the answers, we could
21 move into private.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
23 [Private session]
11 Page 1445 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
23 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, good morning, Your Honour, very very briefly
24 before the witness arrive.
25 The Defence believe that the response, or the answer rather, of
1 the witness in relation to his occupation may be relevant to later
2 submissions, and we would wish to know whether there is any possibility
3 for in place of a redaction to have that part of the transcript being in
4 private session, so to say. So that we are able, later in the day, to
5 rely upon that part of the transcript. We're quite concerned that the
6 part which now remains in the transcript with the redaction could be
7 somewhat misleading and if we want to rely upon the original answer of the
8 witness we would wish to do so and that answer was not generated by the
9 later question of my colleague.
10 JUDGE PARKER: The answers given, even though redacted remain part
11 of the evidence of the witness. You can rely upon any redacted
13 MR. METTRAUX: Very well, Your Honour. In that case, it was a
14 misunderstanding on our part thank you.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Redaction doesn't mean that it's expunged and isn't
16 the evidence. It's merely not -- doesn't appear in any public transcript.
17 MR. METTRAUX: Very well. In that case, I withdraw my request.
18 Thank you very much.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir. Are you able to hear a
22 translation of what I'm saying?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the
25 card that is given to you now.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: WITNESS M-084
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, please sit down.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, if the interpreters may make a
7 note the microphone for protected witnesses is not on. He is speaking in
8 a normal microphone.
9 JUDGE PARKER: This witness does not have voice disguise
11 THE INTERPRETER: I apologise, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for watching.
13 THE INTERPRETER: You're welcome.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
15 MR. NEUNER: Good morning.
16 Examination by Mr. Neuner:
17 Q. Good morning, Witness M84.
18 A. Good morning.
19 MR. NEUNER: Can I please ask the assistance of the usher in
20 putting the document 06083821 to the witness.
21 Q. Could you please look at the document and without reading it out
22 aloud, tell us whether the information is correct.
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, after my learned colleagues have had a
25 chance to see it and have no objections, I would tender it under seal,
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P228, under seal, Your Honours.
4 MR. NEUNER: Could we please move into private session.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
6 [Private session]
11 Page 1450-1466 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
12 JUDGE PARKER: We will break now for the first of the morning
13 breaks and resume at 11.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Neuner. We're in public session.
17 MR. NEUNER: Can we move into private, please.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 1468-1484 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. First of all, Witness, I would like to clarify a term, "Ministry
6 of the Interior", a term that is used quite often. Is it true that this
7 term, "the Ministry of Interior", is in fact used to refer to the entire
8 structure of the police, both the state police and the public police, on
9 the one hand, yet, at the same time, the term, "Ministry of the Interior"
10 refers to the leadership of the ministry at the level of the Republic of
11 Macedonia. Is that correct?
12 A. Ms. Residovic, I have presented the level of leadership from the
13 Ministry of Interior to the GUVR, the city administration of Skopje. The
14 gentlemen from the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Macedonia are
15 certainly superior to the GUVR Skopje, and then from the GUVR that order
16 is then transmitted at the level of police stations where the heads of
17 police stations are.
18 Q. I do apologise. I understood you correctly, and my question does
19 not have to do with what you just explained to us. What it refers to is
20 the use of the terms in many legal documents but also in the questions and
21 answers. So the overall structure of the police from -- from the lowest
22 level, the police station, and the sections in the municipalities, all the
23 way up to the sectors of the interior that would be the city level, and
24 then all the way up to the level of the republic, this entire structure is
25 referred to as the Ministry of Interior. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, Ministry of Interior. That Ministry of Interior is then
2 divided in sectors and subsectors.
3 Q. Yet, quite often the term, "Ministry of the Interior" in legal
4 documents and also in general usage, refers only to the leadership of the
5 ministry at the level of the republic; would that be true too? When
6 people say "the Ministry", they refer to the minister, the directors, the
7 sub-secretaries; is that correct?
8 A. The Ministry of Interior is headed by one person, the minister.
9 But under him there are thousands of people who then work on other tasks
10 whether the minister is leading one thing or another or whether he is
11 informed by others I don't know and I couldn't say. But certainly it is
12 possible that those competences are transferred further down the
13 structure. And whether the minister ordered them, I could not say
15 Q. Thank you. Let me repeat your previous answer. For all intents
16 and purposes, the police stations are parts of the sectors of the
17 interior, and chiefs of the interior sections are superior to the police
18 stations in their area.
19 A. Yes, the head of the police station for instance, the body for
20 internal affairs, this is what the abbreviation OVR stands for there is a
21 head and commanders and deputies. They are all subordinated to the head
22 of that body.
23 Q. Thank you very much. In the city of Skopje --
24 A. No, no, in the municipality.
25 Q. Please, do listen to me carefully. This is another question that
1 I'm about to ask.
2 The sector of the interior in the city of Skopje is superior to
3 the sections of the interior in the municipalities; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. There is an assistant to the minister there and his deputies
5 for police, for civilians, and for uniformed part. These are his
7 Q. Thank you. At the head of sector of the interior of the city of
8 Skopje, we then have the assistant minister for the city of Skopje, and
9 just like all the other assistant ministers and under-secretaries, they
10 are all under the director for public security; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. And as you said yourself, at the head of the ministry you have the
13 minister; is that correct?
14 A. Of course. He is elected by the government.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one small correction, perhaps
16 you may be mistaken here. It is actually the parliament that elects the
17 minister or appoints him.
18 A. Yes, it is voted in the parliament, yes, yes. It is submitted for
19 parliamentary session, but he is proposed by the government.
20 Q. Since you have already answered in great detail to the questions
21 posed by my learned colleagues about your duties, you spent most of your
22 career working, dealing with defensive preparations in the Ministry of
23 Interior; is that correct?
24 A. No, Ms. Residovic. (redacted)
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to move into the
5 private session. And I think we have to redact the last answer because it
6 might lead to the revelation to the identity of this witness.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 1489-1496 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. On the orders of your chief you went to that area and you stayed
6 there until sometime, 3.30, 4.00 afternoon. Could you please tell me, as
7 a witness sitting here, whether in that time-period about 2.000 people
8 from the village of Ljuboten were actually moving towards Radisani.
9 A. All of those people standing up there at the elevation near the
10 transmitter were there, and until I asked, while I agreed with my head
11 Ljube and with other competent people at the duty operations centre of the
12 SVR and others, I did not let people come down because I was asking for
13 permission simply. I could not take people somewhere where they do not
15 Q. Is it true that after the death of the soldiers in this mine
16 incident at Ljubotenski Bacila, that in Ljubanci and Radisani, there
17 was -- that the people there were very upset and that passions really rose
18 there ever higher?
19 A. After the events, after the bomb was placed there and the eight
20 soldiers were killed there at the Ljubotenski Bacila, the situation was
21 greatly deteriorated. It was deteriorated in that period because I think
22 that three of the reserve soldiers killed were from Ljubanci. And the
23 situation became tense. There were tensions between the population of
24 Ljubanci and of Ljuboten.
25 Q. Thank you. And then on the 12th, when you were there, on that
1 road, leading from Ljuboten to Radisani, is it true that you were able to
2 see large groups of people, hundreds of people gathering in the same area
3 from Ljubanci and Radisani?
4 A. Please clarify what area, what space?
5 Q. You said that on the orders of Mr. Krstevski you were to remain,
6 that in this area between Ljuboten and Radisani and that large groups of
7 people, villagers from Ljuboten had arrived there. What I want to know is
8 whether you were able to see large groups of people, hundreds of people,
9 Macedonians, moving out of Radisani and Ljubanci?
10 A. When I was taking the convoy from the elevation down the road,
11 down the Ljubotenski road as it is called, towards the check-point
12 Buzalak. During that time, from the village, from Radisani, hundreds,
13 maybe more, people were running with shovels, with forks, with axes, with
14 hunting guns, they were running down to fight with the population from
15 Ljuboten. That is correct.
16 Q. And you saw for yourself that those angry people started beating
17 up people from Ljuboten and you did all you could to prevent that; is that
19 A. I did not allow -- I did not allow although the convoy was long I
20 could not get everywhere. I was asking for assistance. Why they didn't
21 send assistance whether they could send or couldn't, they sent it only
22 later. But during that period I shot many bullets to scare the people, to
23 prevent them from coming and attacking the people. So the ones on the one
24 side, the others on the other side, but someone from the convoy -- because
25 it was a long convoy they were standing three in a row and the column was
1 long, the convoy, so I could not run from one end to the other. I'm not a
2 sportsman so that I could run everywhere.
3 Q. Is it true that there were very few of your police officers, just
4 a handful, and you did all you do, as you said. You discharged the
5 weapons in order to stop this crowd and you did everything to stop the
6 mob; is that correct?
7 A. To the best of our capabilities we did it, by repressing, by
8 shooting, the attacks were not as strong. There had been somewhere, I
9 could not see the back of the convoy because I went to the front because
10 some would tell me that there would be problems -- some were problems in
11 the front so I went to the front. But then somebody attacked the rear,
12 but I was not there in the rear but there was tension. Albanians on the
13 one side, Macedonians on the other side.
14 Q. Yet regardless of all your efforts, the regular police, reserve
15 police, a dozen or so -- some people got hurt and you had to actually call
16 up some medical assistance, some ambulances to come and treat the people?
17 A. It is correct I called an ambulance, a person was injured. A
18 22-year-old man was injured. My duty is to call an ambulance. We called
19 an ambulance. I asked the people what was the incident. Allegedly, stamp
20 group [as interpreted], I haven't seen them, from the lower part, because
21 that is a hill. I don't know whether you understand me. That is a hill.
22 So if you look at the one side, you don't see the people from the other
23 side. And from that side there, they attacked them, allegedly injured
24 this kid and then I called an ambulance. The ambulance arrived and they
25 took him to the hospital.
1 Q. Yet in your presence, no police officers ever beat those
2 villagers; is that correct?
3 A. I can't say that the police officers were beating during that
4 period there, the group that we were leading. That group of villagers no
5 one was beaten from among that group. There was an order, whether from
6 the ministry, from up in the ministry, or from somewhere else, but I
7 received an order to take the people to the elevation after the Buzalak
8 check-point, 100 metres away from that and to stop there. And I didn't
9 see any police officer beat anyone from the group.
10 Q. Witness M-084, can you tell me is it true that through your chief,
11 Ljube Krstevski, you actually asked for assistance. You even asked for
12 some buses in order to help those people from Ljuboten to go on to move
13 on, but this was not possible because this angry mob of civilians made it
14 impossible for any buses to access this area. It was impossible to get
15 there and to help them.
16 A. When I was leading the convoy, the people, the villagers from
17 Ljuboten, during that time via the radio, via my mobile phone, I don't
18 remember but I think it was via the radio station, I asked how far should
19 I take the people because I had information and the other population down
20 there at Ljubotenski Pat, they already made blockades and they were
21 preparing to attack the people that I was leading. So I asked, where are
22 we taking these people to ensure their safety, and they told me, I don't
23 know who it was via the radio, take them 150 metres after the check-point,
24 they will come there and the buses will be waiting for them there.
25 Q. Is it correct -- well, perhaps you don't really know who actually
1 asked for that, but on the basis of the information that you gave to your
2 boss, Mr. Krstevski, is it true that sometime in the afternoon the
3 special -- that in fact that other police officers came to assist in
4 returning all those people to their homes safely.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the witness
6 answers this question, I see here that the interpreters again used the
7 term "special" for the B/C/S term "posebna". That is the correct
8 interpretation, but in the Macedonian MUP there is a unit for special
9 tasks which is called "Posebna unit", and it is quite different from some
10 other special units such as the Tiger Unit. Perhaps we could use the term
11 then "Posebna unit". We will be able to show this distinction as we move
12 on, but perhaps this might lead to a confusion in the transcript if this
13 Posebna unit is interpreted as special unit.
14 JUDGE PARKER: We are going to have our second break now. You
15 will have to explore this with the witness if you want any such
16 distinction to be made in the transcript.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now and resume at five minutes past
20 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I ask just two
24 more questions of this witness, I would just like to inform you that over
25 the break we had a brief meeting with the interpreters, and we agreed and
1 we would like to propose to the Chamber that for a brief period of time
2 the interpreters use the B/C/S term "Posebna unit" when I use this term,
3 in other words, to leave it in the original, not to translate it, because
4 the commander of this unit will be testifying. He is on the Prosecution
5 list and then the Trial Chamber will be able to hear what the respective
6 powers and authorities were of each of these units.
7 Q. And I would just like to ask this witness to tell me yes or no:
8 Sir, is it true that there are two distinct units, one that is called the
9 Posebna unit, and the other which is called the special unit Tigers. Are
10 these two distinct units within the ministry?
11 A. Yes that is correct.
12 Q. And my last question is that, sir, you said had you been in the
13 village and you said that you had reported to your chief, Mr. Ljube
14 Krstevski about that. Could you please tell me, is it true that you
15 informed Mr. Krstevski orally, you reported to him orally and you never
16 wrote any written reports, and you did not inform anyone orally about your
18 A. Yes, the head, Ljube Krstevski was informed orally about the
20 Q. And nobody else?
21 A. And I never wrote anything on paper because that was just a
22 routine control.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes my
25 cross-examination of this witness.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Tarculovski -- maybe Mr. Apostolski. Your client was getting
3 very anxious for a moment.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: Thank you. [Interpretation] Thank you,
5 Your Honours.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness M-084, I'm Antonio Apostolski, and
8 together with my co-counsel Jasmina Zivkovic we're appearing on behalf of
9 Johan Tarculovski. I will ask you several questions in relation to the
10 events between the 10th and 14th of August, 2001 in the villages of
11 Ljuboten and Ljubanci.
12 I would like to -- you said you saw -- that there was a fire from
13 a house in Ljuboten towards the Macedonian police forces on the 12th of
14 August, 2001; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is correct.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the
17 panoramic photo of Ljuboten, D005-7605. Could the photograph be enlarged a
18 little bit? Could you zoom out, please, a little bit, please. That is
19 okay. That's okay.
20 Q. Could you see the house where you see the fire -- that the house
21 from which you see the fire going towards the Macedonian forces on the
22 12th of August, 2001 and the usher will help you to mark --
23 A. It's not visible from here.
24 Q. Could you please just make a large circle of the part of the
25 village --
1 A. We should see the part that goes from the road from Ljuboten to
3 Could you please ask the speakers not to overlap, please.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This is a photograph taken from above, from Skopska Crna Gora?
6 This is not taken Ljubiseli [phoen].
7 A. No, this is the road that you see. That is the road that goes
8 from the Ljubotenski Pat goes towards Skopje; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So the right side is the Rastanski Road?
11 A. No, the village of Ljubanci is on the right-hand side, the church.
12 You must be wrong, sir.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski, your questions and the answers are
14 constantly overlapping. You're going to have to hold your question until
15 the witness is finished and the witness will have to hold his answer until
16 you have finished. And I think the witness is trying to say he needs to
17 see more of this panorama to the right to mark what you want marked. I
18 may have misunderstood him, but I think that's what he was saying.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the
20 photograph N005-7603, to change this one.
21 Q. Do you see now the photograph that is in front of you?
22 A. I see the photograph.
23 Q. Could you mark the area where you see the fire coming from?
24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could this area be zoomed in,
1 Your Honours --
2 JUDGE PARKER: It can't be done without losing the marking,
3 Mr. Apostolski.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Could I seek to tender
5 this photograph in evidence first.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And can you clarify whether what is meant
7 by "fire." Are we speaking of flames and smoke; or are we speaking of
8 weapon fire?
9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I was asking the witness about
10 the automatic rifle fire.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, weapons fire.
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Please could I seek to tender
13 this one.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D22, Your Honours.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be again shown
17 the photograph N005-7603. So I would ask to have the right side of the
18 photo enlarged.
19 Q. Do you see the house on this photograph where the shooting was
20 coming from?
21 A. These are several houses. This is the region that I told you.
22 Q. Could you mark the houses where you saw the shootings coming from.
23 The shooting that went towards the direction of the Macedonian security
25 A. I marked them.
1 Q. I thank you.
2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could I seek to tender this
3 photograph in evidence, please.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D23, Your Honours.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we briefly move into
7 private session, please.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 1507-1514 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE PARKER: In your evidence you mentioned that on the 12th of
18 August, the Sunday, you were driving from Ljubanci and you saw firing; is
19 that correct?
20 A. No, I never drove from Ljubanci but from Skopje towards Ljubanci.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Was I correct, then, in understanding
22 that you describe what you saw as an exchange of fire, weapon fire, and I
23 thought you said you saw it from about two kilometres using binoculars.
24 Did I understand correctly what you were saying?
25 A. Yes, that is correct. The place that I went out to see who these
1 people were, from that place it was visible that there is shooting with a
2 fire-arms from the other side and that this also on an elevation. So from
3 this elevation to that elevation it was possible to see.
4 JUDGE PARKER: You mentioned that one of the positions was a
5 Macedonian army position; is that correct?
6 A. I don't remember mentioning something like this.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Were Macedonian security forces firing?
8 A. I didn't see personally -- personally anybody firing. The only
9 thing I saw was I said previously that from these houses that were on the
10 road from Ljuboten to Rastak, I saw reflections of fire, reflections of a
11 shootings of a -- from a fire-arms.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Did you see at what that firing was directed, what
13 was the target? Were you able to see that?
14 A. From what I was able to see, I saw that they were firing towards
15 Ljubanci, towards the part inhabited by Macedonians. They were shooting
16 towards that direction.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, towards the part of
18 Ljuboten inhabited by Macedonians.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Did you see any person firing?
20 A. No.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Did you see any weapons?
22 A. I couldn't notice. I just noticed what I told you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: And what time of the day was this?
24 A. I can't recall precisely, but it was sometime in the morning,
25 before noon.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Was there firing from more than one position?
2 A. I stayed at the place just a little time. I saw what I told you.
3 I saw reflections of fire-arms, once, or three, or five times, I can't
4 remember precisely. But I saw reflections of fire-arms towards these --
5 from these houses towards those houses in Ljuboten, as I told you.
6 JUDGE PARKER: You were not able, then, to identify any precise
7 position of firing, where the weapon was as it fired; is that it?
8 A. I can't say from what place exactly, from what angle, from what
9 window, I can't tell, because 1.8 or 2 kilometres, distance was quite a
10 lot. And what weapons they were firing from.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Is there anything arising from those questions, any
12 counsel would like to explore.
13 Mr. Apostolski.
14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wouldn't like to
15 ask a question but I would just like to indicate that page 84, line 5, I
16 think that the answer was Ljubanci but what is written in the transcript
17 is Ljubanci -- is Ljuboten.
18 JUDGE PARKER: So thank you, Mr. Apostolski.
19 You have indicated you thought the firing was toward, was it
20 Ljuboten or Ljubanci?
21 A. This part here, the firing, with this part here. From here the
22 shooting was directed towards this part. In this part here, in this part,
23 there are also Macedonians living who live in Ljuboten, and Ljubanci is
25 JUDGE PARKER: So it's that part of Ljuboten occupied by
1 Macedonians or the adjacent village of Ljubanci. Is that what you're
3 A. Your Honour, in the village of Ljuboten, when you enter it from
4 the village of Ljubanci, on the left side of the road, there are
5 pure-blooded Macedonians living, all the way to the bridge, where there is
6 a longer bridge. This is where Macedonians are living in the village of
7 Ljuboten while all the rest of it on the right side, these are Albanian,
8 people of Albanian ethnicity live there. Behind that part of Ljuboten
9 where Ljuboten villagers are Macedonians, all the others are Macedonians
10 from Ljubanci. This is another settlement.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Has that helped you, Mr. Apostolski?
12 We've got one or other, both of them possible.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask
14 one more question to clarify within this context, just to briefly
15 understand whether Ljuboten and Ljubanci are villages that are flowing
16 from one into the other, so to make it clear for all of us.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ljuboten and Ljubanci in this period
18 as well as now, are linked both with weekend houses as well as people from
19 Ljuboten and Ljubanci who are living there.
20 JUDGE PARKER: You'll see the distances on the map, if you look at
21 the map, Mr. Apostolski.
22 We would indicate that that completes your questioning. I'm just
23 checking on the time, and that means you are now free to leave and to go
24 back to Macedonia at a convenient time. We would thank you for coming to
25 The Hague and for the assistance that you have been able to give.
1 And the Chamber would thank counsel for the care they gave with
2 time today. We have been able to finish the witness's evidence, which
3 means that he doesn't have to wait here or come back later.
4 So thank you, sir. You're free to go.
5 And we now adjourn until Wednesday, the 6th of June.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of June,
9 2007, at 2.15 p.m.