Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1952

1 Wednesday, 13 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

7 May I remind you, sir, of the affirmation that you made at the

8 beginning of your evidence, that still applies.

9 Ms. Motoike.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS M-053 [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. Good morning.

13 Examination by Ms. Motoike: [Continued]

14 Q. Witness, before we ended yesterday's session, we were talking over

15 each other yesterday when I was asking you. Actually, could we display

16 what has been marked as P00169, already admitted? It is tab 16 of the

17 binders. Thank you.

18 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we move back into private session,

19 please.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 Page 1953 redacted. Private session.















Page 1954

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Now perhaps you could repeat what you were saying,

7 Ms. Motoike.

8 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 I have no further questions of this witness. There are tabs 17

10 through 19 of the binders. Because of the amount of time I took

11 yesterday, I do not wish to go into these particular exhibits. You will

12 see that they are already admitted. I do have one additional request and

13 that is I believe we have fixed the exhibit that had been marked for

14 identification as 252. It is now 65 ter 202.1. It was the photograph,

15 Your Honours, that the redaction was requested of. We went ahead and

16 actually took the photograph and made it a separate exhibit, so I would

17 like to now admit that under -- tender that, please.

18 JUDGE PARKER: The photograph will now be received as an exhibit.

19 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. M-053. I am Edina Residovic and together with

24 my co-counsel I'm appearing for Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

25 Before I go on to the questions, Mr. M-053, I would like to warn

Page 1955

1 you on one thing. I assume that you understand the language that I speak,

2 and I understand the language that you speak. But my question as well as

3 your answers should be interpreted so that His Honours and the colleagues

4 in the courtroom would be able to know what we are talking about. I would

5 therefore like to ask you to wait a while, while my question is

6 interpreted and then respond to it.

7 Did you understand me?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: I would like to ask Your Honours to move into a

10 private session for a while?

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1956

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. The task of issuance of weapons in the police stations and in the

19 departments of the police stations are performed in accordance with the

20 guidelines of issuance of weapons. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If I were to say that to perform these regular tasks that are

23 regulated by the laws and the guidebooks, you did not need special orders,

24 but for certain tasks you received orders from your superior officer. Is

25 that correct?

Page 1957

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That orders of the immediate superior could -- could be oral or

3 written. Is that correct?

4 A. They are more oral.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Verbal.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. And those orders could be given to you by the head of OVR Cair or

8 a person that would be authorised by him, then the head of the defensive

9 preparations and other authorised officials in accordance with the rules.

10 Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. M-053, yesterday on several occasions you responded to the

13 questions when you were asked about some of the tasks of the Ministry of

14 Interior. In order to make some things clearer I would like to ask you to

15 tell me, would it be correct that in accordance to the law, the Ministry

16 of Interior in fact represents the entire structure of all the organs of

17 the interior, and that includes the police officers, the police stations

18 as well as the departments of the interior in the municipalities as well

19 as the sectors of the interior in the cities, so the entire public and

20 state security.

21 Is all these put together the thing that makes the Ministry of

22 Interior?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But, Mr. M-053, when sometimes it -- a jargon is used to say MVR,

25 the people only have in mind the building of the ministry on a state level

Page 1958

1 in which the building in which the minister is seated, or to put it

2 simply, if I were to say to the taxi driver in Skopje, I would like to go

3 to the MVR, then he would took me to the building where the minister

4 sits. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. As a police officer, you're aware that actually most of the tasks

7 of the police are carried out in accordance with the law and that is in

8 the organs that by the law or by the rules are charged to carry out

9 certain tasks and duties. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And to make it even more simple, so the police station is

12 responsible for the public order and peace on its territory, the commander

13 of the police station is responsible for the situation in his police

14 station for the safety of the people that are entering the police station

15 and et cetera. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The department of the interior in which you used to work in Cair

18 under its composition had the police stations Cair and Mirkovci, then

19 there was this operational department where the inspectors or the

20 authorised officials worked who worked on detection of crimes, then in the

21 department of the interior there was an analysis section, and also there

22 was an authorised official in charge of the defensive preparations. Is

23 this roughly the structure of your department of the interior?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Bearing in mind that you said that most of the tasks you carried

Page 1959

1 out in accordance to the law and the systemization of the jobs, that is to

2 say, also with the order of your immediate superior, could I understand it

3 as -- that in the -- in the performance of your duty you never got a

4 direct order from the Ministry of the Interior on national and state

5 level, nor from the minister himself. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your responses to the questions of my learned colleague about

8 how the reservists were called, you testified about the mobilisation and

9 the call to the reserve force that was coming from the minister or from

10 persons authorised by the Minister. I'd like to ask you to clarify these

11 facts a little bit. Is it correct, Mr. M-053, that the citizens of the

12 Republic of Macedonia with full age after serving the military service,

13 they are then deployed in the reserve forces of whether the police or the

14 army. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In every municipality, there is a department of the Ministry of

17 Defence where the registers of the reserve forces are kept and upon the

18 request of a certain police organ, this department of the defence could

19 redeploy the reserve force so that some people would be additionally

20 assigned to the list of the Ministry of Interior. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Concerning this core formalisation that you mentioned, is it

23 correct that it is the government actually who decides on that to mobilise

24 the police force and after that decision, it is the minister or a person

25 authorised by him who orders to call the reserve force in the entire

Page 1960

1 country or in a certain area. Is that the way that is prescribed by the

2 law for calling, summonsing in the reserve force?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Beside this general call which is sent to all the sectors and

5 department of the interior, all other tasks are carried out by the

6 authorised officials in the sector of the interior or the department of

7 the interior in accordance with the rule book for calling the reserve

8 force. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You personally did not perform duties to call summons and register

11 the reserve forces. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And if I understood you well, in the Cair department, those tasks

14 were carried out by your colleague Ilija Sovkovski. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It wasn't your duty when persons are sent to you to issue weapons

17 and uniforms. It wasn't your duty to check whether they were really

18 members of the reserve force of the police. That was the duty, the task

19 of another person. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-053, that in addition to these individual

22 calls for persons that were already on the list of the Ministry of

23 Interior, the reserve force could be also called by a public call for

24 mobilisation? Are you aware of that?

25 A. No.

Page 1961

1 Q. Very well. But you would agree with me that it is possible that

2 this is written in some law, in some rule book. Is that correct?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. If I understood you well when you testified yesterday, (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.

10 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours may we move into private session,

11 please?

12 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

13 MS. MOTOIKE: With respect to this last question, Your Honour --

14 my apologies.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 Pages 1962-1963 redacted. Private session.















Page 1964

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-053, that for someone to become a reserve

6 police officers or to be within the reserve police forces, it would be

7 necessary for the person to be registered in the list of reserve police

8 officers, to be deployed at a job within a given police station or

9 other -- or be given other police work, and these persons would need to

10 have an ID of the reserve police forces, they were salaried by the

11 Ministry of Interior and when all these criteria were met, then they would

12 be considered reserve police forces. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So the actual issuance of weapons and uniforms would not make a

15 person a police officer immediately. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. And you actually do not know whether (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Again, I apologise. I apologise,

21 Your Honours. Let's move into a private session briefly to ask this

22 question.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 1965











11 Pages 1965-1967 redacted. Private session.















Page 1968

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. When a person becomes a reserve police officer, you answered

8 already, they are deployed to perform tasks within a police station or to

9 perform other police duties; is that correct?

10 A. Could you please repeat this question again.

11 Q. When a person becomes a reserve police officer, you have testified

12 previously that person is given certain tasks, either within a police

13 station or elsewhere in a police body.

14 A. I'm not able to hear the interpretation at all. It's all right

15 now.

16 Q. Is it all right now?

17 A. No. There are interruptions. I don't know hear it now.

18 Q. Are you able to hear me now?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. You told me already that a person enrolled in the reserve forces

21 is deployed to perform certain police tasks, either to a police station or

22 elsewhere on police duties.

23 So my question now is: When a person is deployed at a police

24 station, is it correct that, then, the responsibility for that person is

25 assumed by the commander of the police station?

Page 1969

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The commander of the police station issues orders based on the

3 deployment of the reserve forces, and they are assigning the forces with

4 specific tasks and responsibilities. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honour. I

7 wish to look at some documents, if I may.

8 Q. And if that person, regardless of whether they are an active or a

9 reserve police officer, does something in breach of the standards of

10 performing the police works, then the responsibility falls on the

11 commander of the police station to investigate the responsibility of that

12 person. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. My learned colleague showed you yesterday and today a number of

15 documents, so I ask you now to look at them again. It is P170. That is

16 the report about the use of means of enforcement of fire-arms.

17 Do you see now at the top of this page, it reads: Ministry of

18 Interior, then office of internal affairs, Cair, department for internal

19 affairs, Cair, police station, Cair. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that document, if we look at the next page of it, was signed

22 by the authorised officer of that police station, Ziljanov Tome, who is a

23 corporal --

24 INTERPRETER: Sergeant, interpreter's correction.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1970

1 Q. Now I would like to ask that the witness is shown the Exhibit P174

2 again. That is a statement of a person. And is it correct that in the

3 top section of this document it again reads Ministry of Internal Affairs,

4 police station Cair. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And again the document is signed by an authorised officer of that

7 police station?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were also shown the document P175.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I'd like to ask that it is

11 shown again.

12 Q. That is one more statement, and again, in the top section you see

13 that it is written that it was the Ministry of Interior, police station

14 Cair?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then this statement is signed by the authorised officer of

17 that police station; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And now I would like to ask you to look at P170, P169, which was

20 also shown to you. Do you see that this report about a procedure

21 conducted at a police station was forwarded to the sector for internal

22 affairs, Skopje?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In relation to these documents, I wish to ask you: Is it correct

25 that with regards to the responsibility of the police station commander

Page 1971

1 for the acts of his or her subordinate officers, it is actually the police

2 station, the body that has the duty to instigate a procedure, if they have

3 any information that their officer, that a police officer or a person from

4 within that police station has done something outside of the professional

5 standards for the conduct of police officers, would that be the duty of

6 that police station and of that police station commander?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the overall procedure, as we have seen here, end with a report

9 sent to the sector for security in Skopje?

10 A. It is written on the second page to whom is the report sent.

11 Q. Yes. It reads here that -- so apart from the fact that is written

12 to the SVR Skopje, as it is written on the first page, in the second page,

13 later as you properly -- as you rightly stated, it says that it was also

14 forwarded to the unit, then to the analytics department in Cair and a copy

15 remained in the police station. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Otherwise, could you agree with me that disciplinary procedures

18 against any officer of the Ministry of Interior are conducted pursuant to

19 the collective agreement, which precisely stipulates the procedures and

20 the bodies deciding on the responsibility or liability of an officer. Is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. We would now move to another line of questions which

24 are not related the procedure that you discussed with my learned

25 colleague, the Prosecutor.

Page 1972

1 Is it correct that in 2001 many people were enrolled in the

2 police -- in the reserve forces in the Cair department?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If I were to say that for 50 active police officers, and that was

5 the number of you before the time of the crisis, in that year there were

6 some 300 to 350 reserve police officers enrolled, that would be the

7 approximate number of police officers in your department. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it correct that the situation that existed as well as the big

11 number of newly enrolled persons actually prevented the full control over

12 the entire forces from existing?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You stated already that there were two police stations within the

15 realms of the department Cair. They were the stations Cair and Mirkovci?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it correct that after the Ljuboten events, a reserve police

18 station was established on the 15th of August, 2001?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I was warned that the interpreting

21 is possibly insufficiently precise. But I think we will go back to it

22 later, because the question and the answer were recorded on page 21, line

23 21 to 24.

24 Q. So the reserve police station was established after the events in

25 Ljuboten, on the 15th of August 2001; is that correct?

Page 1973

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This police station covered also the village of Ljuboten, but the

3 police officers were not able to enter the village all the way until the

4 start of 2002; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are you actually aware that it is only the mixed police patrols

7 with the assistance of OSCE and NATO and the Amber Fox, the ones who

8 entered the village at the beginning of 2002?

9 A. On the 2nd or the 3rd of January, 2002.

10 Q. Thank you. And up until then actually the police officers from

11 the Cair department were unable to perform any police duties in the

12 village of Ljuboten; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But because you worked at that department for a number of years

15 after that, could you then testify that even after that time the Ljuboten

16 villagers, the Albanians, were not prepared and willing to cooperate with

17 the Macedonian police?

18 A. It is true.

19 Q. At that time that you testified about, the security situation in

20 your municipality had deteriorated significantly because of the fact that

21 in the area of the municipality pertained also part of the Skopska Crna

22 Gora, which, due to its closeness to the Kumanovo crisis area and to the

23 Kosovo border, was of special significance to the security of Skopje as

24 well. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1974

1 Q. Mr. M-053, was this the reason for the army of the Republic of

2 Macedonia to expand its control over the border area, that is the border

3 towards Serbia and Kosovo, by deploying its units also in part of the area

4 of the municipality of Cair near the Ljuboten village?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that the putting of mines by Albanian

7 terrorists in the Ljubotenski Bacila when eight members of the Macedonian

8 army were killed and some of them were wounded has additionally

9 deteriorated the situation in your municipality?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You must be aware that two of the killed members of the army were

12 from the Ljubanci village, which was also under the competences of the

13 municipality of Cair; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If I understood well, when you answered to the questions of my

16 learned colleague, on the 10th of -- the people of Ljubanci village, as of

17 the 10th have started to come and request weapons?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The closeness of these terrorist attacks has provoked fear among

20 the people, and there were information that part of the terrorists had

21 entered the village. Were you aware of such information?

22 A. I knew something and I did not know some other things.

23 Q. As you said, (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Please, Your Honour, I would like this to be

Page 1975

1 redacted and to go to a private session.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Private. Redaction.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1976

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

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17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. The superior organ over the OVR Cair was the department of

25 interior of Skopje, the sector, I'm sorry, of interior in Skopje?

Page 1977

1 A. The sector of interior of Skopje.

2 Q. Yes. Okay, thank you. And the direct superior to your head, the

3 assistant of SVR Skopje, the minister assistant of SVR Skopje?

4 A. The office of SVR Skopje.

5 Q. And at that time this was Mr. Zoran Efremov; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now I would like to ask you a few things related to the -- to your

8 testimony concerning some events of August 12th.

9 If I understood well, upon the -- upon the call of your head and

10 upon his order on the 12th in the morning at about 10.00 you went to

11 monitor the police check-points; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You have visited the Ljubance check-point as well; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Ljubanci, yes.

16 Q. During that visit at around 1.00 p.m., the head Krstevski was

17 informed that Minister Boskoski was coming; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He told you then to go to the playfield which was -- which is

20 located on the road to Ljubanci and to meet the minister; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When the minister arrived, you could see immediately that he was

23 accompanied by some TV reporters, some journalists; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The minister greeted with your head and with all of you that met

Page 1978

1 him; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You were here nearby when he greeted with your head?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if I would say to you that the minister at that time asked

6 your head what was happening and that your head briefly explained the

7 situation, you would agree with me that this was the right description of

8 the events; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said you didn't enter the Brace's house and that you stayed by

11 the gate?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that not far from that gate there were people that were

14 brought in, that were lying there by the wall. These persons were brought

15 in from the Ljuboten village by the people that were in the village of

16 Ljuboten. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To the question of my learned colleague you said that these were

19 civilians. In that respect, I would like to ask you the following: As a

20 police officer and as a citizen who could see the reports from the events

21 in the crisis areas, could you see on the TV that the members of the NLA

22 in the past sometimes wore uniforms while some other times wore some

23 combined uniforms, partly civilian and partially military uniforms, and

24 that sometimes in the reports you could see members of the NLA with arms

25 wearing only civilian clothes. Could you see that?

Page 1979

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In these reports you could even see sometimes children with

3 weapons; is that correct? Have you ever seen such things?

4 A. No, I haven't.

5 Q. Okay. These people that were brought to the Brace house by people

6 with masks, if I would say that those people who brought them in said that

7 they had captured them in fight, would this be correct?

8 A. Could you please repeat this question.

9 Q. I asked whether the people who brought in the people from

10 Ljuboten, these are the people that you described when answering to the

11 question of my learned colleague, people wearing masks, did these people

12 at the time when they brought in the other people who said that they had

13 captured them in combat in the village of Ljuboten, or maybe you are not

14 aware of the way these people have been captured?

15 A. I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. However, if I say at the moment you saw these people and the

17 weapons that were brought from the village that you were convinced these

18 were people who had participated in combat, then you could agree now that

19 this was so?

20 A. Could please you repeat this question.

21 Q. So I'll put it in a simpler way.

22 At the moment when you saw these people and when you saw the

23 weapons that were brought from the village, is it true that at that point,

24 at that moment, you considered that these people were people who had been

25 captured in combat? Is this the way you thought at that time?

Page 1980

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to be

3 displayed Exhibit P -- this was 65 ter 566, but I think yesterday it was

4 given number D -- P262.

5 Q. My learned colleague yesterday showed you this document, and she

6 said that this was -- this was operative information, and you corrected

7 her and said that this was an Official Note. Is this correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'd like to ask you to look at the second line where it writes:

10 Detainment of arrested individuals. Namely, I would like to ask you

11 whether somewhere here you see whether the word "arrested" is written?

12 A. I can see "brought in."

13 Q. But do you see "arrested?" You do not see any word which points

14 to the fact that these are arrested people. Is this correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In this respect I would ask you the following: As a police

17 officer, you know that the police forces can bring in a certain individual

18 in the police station and hold him up to 24 hours. This is in accordance

19 with the law of the Republic of Macedonia. Is this correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The police cannot -- not detain a person unless there is a

22 decision from an investigating judge; is this correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After 24 hours, each -- every person that is brought in must be

25 released unless the investigating judge has given an agreement of -- for--

Page 1981

1 for him to be held or to -- to be detained. Is this correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you look at this note, and this detention is decided upon

4 the public prosecutions [as interpreted]. Is this correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now I'd like to ask you to see the fourth paragraph in this note.

7 You can see that the proposal to hold these individuals -- I apologise, in

8 paragraph 2, you could see that the deputy public prosecutor Lazar

9 Natrandziski, together with deputy Jovo Serafimovski, have reached the

10 given agreement. This is written in paragraph 2. Is this correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then, in paragraph 4 it writes that upon -- that the

13 investigating judge of the lower court Skopje II, Bekir Sani, was informed

14 of this recommendation by the above-mentioned deputy of the court of first

15 instance and the head -- and the end, it was agreed -- it was said that

16 they had reached a joint agreement confirmed by the investigating judge of

17 the Lower court Skopje II, Bekir Sani, and that these persons were held

18 until the end of the overall procedure.

19 This was -- but you agree that this was the only way to keep

20 certain individuals in the police station over 24 hours because the

21 investigating judge had decided that. Is this correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And if we look at the name of the investigating judge, Bekir Sani,

24 you would agree that this is an investigating judge of Albanian ethnicity?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1982

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your

2 Honours, I have completed with the questioning of the witness.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.

4 Given the hour, I think probably if we had the break, the first

5 break now, it would give Mr. Apostolski time to be ready to commence when

6 we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

7 So we will adjourn now for the first break and resume at five to

8 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14 Q. Witness M-053, I'm Antonio Apostolski and I'm the main counsel of

15 Mr. Johan Tarculovski, together with my colleague, Jasmina Zivkovic. She

16 is the co-counsel in this case.

17 I will ask you some questions regarding the events between 10th

18 and 12th August, 2001. May we begin?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If we could go into private session, please.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1983











11 Page 1983 redacted. Private session.















Page 1984

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

21 Q. On 10th of August, 2001, a Friday, in the vicinity of Ljuboten

22 village, eight soldiers were killed and eight others injuries due to the

23 mine that was laid there?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Is this -- is it correct that this act was carried out by the NLA

Page 1985

1 terrorist group?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it correct that on the 18th of August, 2001, in a similar

4 ambush, members of the Macedonian security forces were killed at Karpalak

5 location?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I apologise, I mean 8th of August.

8 A. Yes, 8th of August.

9 Q. Is it correct that this act was also carried out by the members of

10 the NLA terrorist group?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. A similar ambush occurred at Vejce, in the month of May, whereby

13 the survivors from the Macedonian security forces ranks were massacred.

14 Is this correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it also correct that this attack was also carried out by the

17 NLA terrorist group?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it correct that following these actions, the NLA members would

20 withdraw to settlements or areas inhabited by ethnic Albanians?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it correct that in your police station you had information that

23 part of the group that carried out the attack in the vicinity of Ljuboten

24 village on the 10th of August, 2001, in which Macedonian soldiers were

25 killed, withdrew in Ljuboten village?

Page 1986

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it correct that Ljuboten village was a logistics base of the

3 NLA?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I will now ask you some questions in relation to Sunday, 12th

6 August 2001.

7 On this Sunday, at around 9.00, you went to work, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. There you heard that there was shooting in Ljuboten?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At around 11.00, you went to tour the check-points in the vicinity

12 of Ljubanci and Ljuboten villages, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At around 11.30, you arrived at the Chinese wall check-point,

15 right? Around 11.30, I would say.

16 A. Earlier, around 11.00, I would say.

17 Q. All right. When you arrived at Chinese wall check-point, from the

18 direction of Ljuboten, there was automatic and sniper fire coming and

19 directed at you; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The fire came from three or four houses located on a hill in

22 Ljuboten village; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Through binoculars, you saw smoke coming from fire-arms, from the

25 windows of these houses, right?

Page 1987

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like now to

3 show the witness a photograph, N005-7603. This is a panoramic photograph

4 of Ljuboten village.

5 Q. This is a panoramic photograph of Ljuboten village as depicted

6 from the side of Radisani. Could you please show me on this photograph --

7 A. The check-point, our check-point is somewhere here.

8 Q. On this side?

9 A. The Brace house on the right side, you cannot see the houses.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If you -- we could move the

11 photograph to the right a little bit, please.

12 Q. If we could move the photograph to the right. Please wait for a

13 while. The usher will move the photograph so that you can see it better.

14 With the assistance of the usher, could you please mark or circle

15 that location. If you need to, we can enlarge the photograph.

16 A. Yes, we could enlarge the photograph.

17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] We can enlarge it on the

18 right-hand side. A little bit more, please.

19 Q. Can you see now those houses on the photograph, Witness?

20 A. Here is the Brace house, somewhere here. It should be here

21 somewhere.

22 Q. We enlarged the photograph.

23 A. Yes, yes. It is opposite the building.

24 Q. This is the right-hand side of the village. Can you mark with

25 number 1 the houses from where you saw --

Page 1988

1 A. There are three houses up there, 1, 2, 3, here are the houses.

2 Q. Can you mark with number 1 the houses from where you saw smoke

3 coming out from fire-arms, from the windows of the houses?

4 A. These houses are opposite to our check-point, immediately to the

5 left.

6 Q. All right. Thank you.

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

8 tender this photograph as an exhibit.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D26, Your Honours.

11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

12 Q. A group of ten persons that were brought in -- a group of ten

13 persons were brought in, in front of Brace's house; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. From the persons who brought them in, you found out that these

16 persons, before they were brought in, were wearing uniforms and later on

17 they changed their clothes and put on civilian clothes. Is this correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it correct that one of NLA's tactics was for its members to

20 change into civilian clothes and mingle with the local population?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Afterwards, you returned to the Cair police station, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You noticed that there were persons who were brought in in this

25 police station, right?

Page 1989

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You did not see or notice any one of them being beaten?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Most of them were brought in in the police station, right? Held

5 in the police station, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct that only those persons who get a positive paraffin

8 glove test were -- were held in the police station and brought before the

9 court?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Those persons whose results were negative were released and

12 allowed to go home, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.

17 Ms. Motoike.

18 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Re-examination by Ms. Motoike:

20 Q. Witness, you were asked, and I believe the reference is on page 7

21 of today's transcript. You were asked about the tasks of police. On the

22 12th of August, 2001, do you know what the tasks of the police were? And

23 to clarify, this is in relation to the police that you saw at Brace's

24 house.

25 A. They were deployed on the check-points for security reasons.

Page 1990

1 Q. And on page 8 of today's transcript you were asked about not

2 getting direct orders from the Minister of Interior. In 2001 if you

3 had received a direct order from the Minister of Interior, would you

4 have followed it?

5 A. This has to arrive first at the senior officer who is appointed in

6 the police station, and then he issued that order to me to carry it out.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, he relays that order

8 to me.


10 Q. And later on page 18 of today's transcript you stated that it is

11 the commander of the police station who is responsible for investigating

12 breaches of duty by police officers. What if the commander of the police

13 station does not investigate a particular breach? Who is then responsible

14 for the investigation?

15 A. There is internal control.

16 Q. And what do you mean by "internal control"?

17 A. There is a department of internal control that investigates these

18 cases when a senior officer fails to undertake the necessary measures

19 against his employees.

20 Q. And later on page 21 of today's transcript, you spoke about a

21 number of reservists in 2001. Were the reservists deployed from OVR Cair

22 in 2001 under the authority of a superior officer?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can I just go back to a question that I asked you earlier with

25 respect to an order, a direct order from the Minister of Interior. My

Page 1991

1 question was if you had received a direct order from the Minister of

2 Interio , would have you follow it?

3 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness

6 answered this question, and it is a question of an order for mobilisation.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I must say I have a concern, Ms. Motoike, but it is

8 perhaps directed to a different point. That is, this is entirely

9 conjectural, because it is the evidence of this witness that there was

10 never any direct order ever received by him ever in the course of his

11 employment.

12 Would you like to put submissions dealing both with

13 Ms. Residovic's point and with mine?

14 MS. MOTOIKE: I guess my -- I understand what the witness

15 testified to, Your Honour. With respect, though, to his position as a

16 police officer in the department, my question was only asking whether or

17 not as a Minister of Interior if he had received an order, hypothetically

18 speaking, because he is a still a police officer, was a police officer at

19 that time, in 2001, if he had received an order, would it then be his

20 obligation to follow it through.

21 JUDGE PARKER: That is a question different from the one that you

22 did ask, because you're asking whether there was an obligation to obey,

23 not what this person would do.

24 Now, there is the other submission of Ms. Residovic.

25 MS. MOTOIKE: I apologise, Your Honour. Could I have just a

Page 1992

1 moment.

2 With respect to my learned colleague's submission, I don't

3 believe -- perhaps the way I phrased question, the answer might have been

4 already given. But I would like an opportunity, with the Court's leave,

5 to rephrase the question specifically geared to what I was asking.

6 JUDGE PARKER: That, I think will deal both with my concern and

7 the point of Ms. Residovic's observation. I think her objection was

8 directed to the way you had formulated your question, which certainly

9 seemed to be something you had certainly dealt with earlier.


11 Q. Witness, if you had -- as a police officer at the Cair police

12 station, if you had received an order from the Minister of the Interior

13 would it had been your duty as a police officer to follow that order?

14 A. It is not me who will receive the order directly. It is the

15 senior officer who receives this order and then he relays that order to

16 me.

17 Q. And on page 35 of today's transcript, you were asked -- or

18 actually, you indicated that Ljuboten was a logistics base of the NLA.

19 Was this based on information from -- that you had within your police

20 station?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And to your knowledge, were all the persons who resided in

23 Ljuboten village members of the NLA?

24 A. No, not all of them.

25 Q. And you were also asked on page 38 of today's transcripts, you

Page 1993

1 were -- actually indicated that you had been informed that some of these

2 persons that had been brought in had uniforms on at one time. Did you see

3 any of those uniforms that these persons had referred to?

4 A. No, I didn't see uniforms, but I knew that they had changed their

5 clothes.

6 Q. And that knowledge was based on other persons who had informed you

7 at the scene?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we move into private session,

10 please.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1994











11 Pages 1994-1999 redacted. Private session.















Page 2000

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 2001

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Just repeat for the public record that your

3 questioning has concluded, and the Chamber thanks you for your attendance

4 and the evidence you have given, and you may now go with the court

5 officer.

6 Thank you, sir.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the next witness will be led by

10 Mr. Neuner.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And is this a witness with protective

12 measures, Mr. --

13 MR. SAXON: I believe not, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Not. And this witness's name, Mr. Neuner?

15 MR. NEUNER: Mr. Ali Isni. Mr. Isni Ali.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, apparently it is difficult to locate the

18 witness. May I have the Chamber's leave to call a member of the

19 Prosecution team who may know the specific room where the witness is

20 waiting.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, indeed.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Ali. Would you please read the

24 affirmation that is on the card.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare to say the

Page 2002

1 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.

5 Yes, Mr. Neuner.

6 Examination by Mr. Neuner:

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ali.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner has some questions for you now.

9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ali. Your name is Isni Ali?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And your -- I don't receive a translation.

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. NEUNER: Do Your Honours receive a translation?

14 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber is.


16 Q. Your ethnicity is Albanian?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you live in the village of Ljuboten in Macedonia?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in October 2003, you provided a first statement to the Office

21 of the Prosecutor of the ICTY.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in September 2004 you gave a second statement to the ICTY?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in November 2005, you met in Ljuboten a representative from

Page 2003

1 the registry who certified the first statement you gave in October 2003?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in April of this year, you met my colleague and myself in

4 Ljuboten and made corrections and additions to your first statement from

5 2003?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you have the opportunity to read these documents before

8 you came here today?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And are you satisfied that the contents are accurate?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, according to Rule 92 bis I'd like to

13 tender the certified first statement of this witness into evidence. The

14 ERN number is N002-1694 to 1703.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P263, Your Honours.

17 MR. NEUNER: I also wish to tender the statement from April this

18 year containing the additions and corrections to this 92 bis statement

19 into evidence. ERN is N006-4323 to 4331.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

21 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, very briefly. We had understood that

22 the Prosecution would only seek to tender the actual statements of -- or

23 addendum, I should say, of Mr. Ali, which would be the first three pages

24 of the addendum. But not the comments, if I may say so, which come

25 thereafter, which are essentially comments made by the witness in relation

Page 2004

1 to certain exhibits.

2 We had made submissions earlier in the day in relation to another

3 witness, Your Honour, to the effect that we understood that if the

4 Prosecution intends to lead particular evidence in relation to an exhibit,

5 they could do that at the time of tendering the statement and would then

6 lead the evidence from the witness in relation to these exhibits.

7 We understand from the information which we received yesterday

8 from the Prosecution that they do not intend to seek to tender some of the

9 exhibits which are mentioned in this addendum. To that extent, it is our

10 submission that the Prosecution would not or should not be permitted to

11 tender these comments of the witness.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.

13 MR. NEUNER: I will clarify very briefly, taking the comments of

14 my colleague on board.

15 I will therefore seek only the first three pages as suggested by

16 my learned friend into evidence and I will read it in the record. The ERN

17 number is N006-4323 to N006-4325.

18 JUDGE PARKER: You realise the Chamber does not have these

19 supplementary materials. We received the filing of the original statement

20 with the 92 bis submission. We do not get any of these additions.

21 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I would have a hard copy available,

22 which, if Your Honours so wish, could be placed on the ELMO.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I think it is a matter to see what it is that you

24 want to tender following Mr. Mettraux's point and concerns.

25 MR. NEUNER: Yeah. So if it could be please placed on the ELMO.

Page 2005

1 JUDGE PARKER: I think if it is just shown to us at the moment.

2 Counsel already have it, of course.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, it may involve some extra time, but it

7 appears to the Chamber that the original statement which you tender is the

8 statement that is authorised pursuant to Rule 92 bis. This addendum is

9 not a statement within either 92 bis or ter, and if it is, there are

10 passages in the original 92 bis statement that the witness now seeks to

11 explain or vary in some particular, then that should be done orally rather

12 than by attempting to tender the addendum, which is really a form of

13 notice to the Defence so that they are prepared for these changes.

14 MR. NEUNER: We are prepared to follow that proposed course of

15 action, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Neuner.

17 Mr. Mettraux.

18 MR. METTRAUX: That solve the issue, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE PARKER: The original statement will be received pursuant to

20 Rule 92 bis.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE PARKER: The date of the 92 bis statement, Mr. Neuner, is?

23 October 2003?

24 MR. NEUNER: It is the 29th of October, 2003 and my understanding

25 from the first two cover pages, meaning the registry's cover pages that,

Page 2006

1 the registry officer, Ms. Katarina Fabian has on the 18th of November,

2 2005, approached this witness with an Albanian translation of that 2003

3 statement and asked him to read through -- or it was read out to him then

4 and certified in that moment. If this assists Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the statement you're tendering pursuant to 92

6 bis is that dated in April -- in October of 2003?

7 MR. NEUNER: Yes, it is. It says 29th of October, 2003, on page

8 with the ERN N002-1696.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Are you also tendering the Albanian

10 translation?

11 MR. NEUNER: This is indeed the Albanian -- or the -- the Albanian

12 version as certified on the 18th of November, 2005, by the registry

13 officer in Ljuboten.


15 MR. NEUNER: And attached to that are English translations as well

16 as Macedonian translations. They should be attached in e-court.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE PARKER: Now are you wishing to deal with these other

20 issues?

21 MR. NEUNER: Yes, I will.

22 May I first have an opportunity to summarize what is in this

23 statement just tendered into evidence.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 MR. NEUNER: The witness Isni Ali a Ljuboten resident of Albanian

Page 2007

1 ethnicity. On 10 to 12 August, 2001, Macedonian forces launched an attack

2 against Ljuboten. The witness's son Erxhan was killed by a grenade during

3 the attack on Friday, 10 August 2001.

4 On Sunday, 12 August 2001, at 10.00 in the morning, the grenade

5 hit the witness's house.

6 On 12th of August, 2001, the witness and other villagers fled

7 Ljuboten. On his way, he saw the body of Sulejman Bajrami near the

8 Ametovski house. The witness arrived at the Buzalak check-point where he

9 saw police and a number of detained men who appear to have been beaten.

10 The witness and others were taken to Prolece police station. There the

11 witness was beaten so severely by police officers that he lost

12 consciousness.

13 Later he under went a paraffin test at Prolece police station.

14 The witness and other detainees were mistreated and beaten there. On the

15 second night, the witness and others were transferred to Bit Pazar police

16 station. He was beaten and detained there for 24 hours.

17 The witness was then taken to Skopje Court where policemen beat

18 him and others on the corridor. In court, the witness was forced to sign

19 a statement. He was imprisoned in Sutka prison for about four month,

20 after which he was released. The witness still suffers from pain in his

21 kidneys and cannot sleep on his right side because of the injuries he

22 suffered during the mistreatment in August 2001.

23 Q. Mr. Ali, I want to take you to Prolece police station you were

24 taken there on Sunday, the 12th of August, 2001. In paragraph 9 of your

25 statement you mentioned that you were seriously beaten there?

Page 2008

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And at some point in time, you were taken into an office to

3 undertake a test.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you please describe what happened when you were entering the

6 office door.

7 A. When we entered the door of the paraffin test room, they opened

8 the door, they pushed us from behind, and they closed the door. And we

9 hit the door with our heads. Then they put our heads under the table.

10 They put our hands on the table. Then they hit us with Kalashnikov butts.

11 Q. Can I just stop you here.

12 A. We -- we felt something like rubber or plastic. I don't know

13 exactly.

14 Q. Can I stop you for a second, please.

15 What did you see -- what persons did you see in the room?

16 A. We saw the police officers.

17 Q. What were they wearing?

18 A. Police uniforms.

19 Q. And what did they have in their hands, if anything?

20 A. They had weapons, Kalashnikovs, knives.

21 Q. So can you continue, you were putting your hands on the table.

22 And what happened then?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that the witness might be on

24 the Macedonian channel because he tends to start his answers in Macedonian

25 and then proceeds in Albanian.

Page 2009

1 A. [Previous translation continues] ... put our hands on the table,

2 they hit our hands with the Kalashnikov butts. They maltreated us there

3 as well.

4 MR. NEUNER: Can I just stop for a second. I got an interpreter's

5 note that the usher may please check the channel of the witness, whether

6 the witness is receiving Albanian translation.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear in Macedonian.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Can we change the channel to the Albanian channel,

9 please?

10 Are you now receiving a translation in your language?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

13 Mr. Neuner.


15 Q. I want to take this step by step. So you stated that your head

16 was put below the table; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. And your hands were put above the table?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What happened then?

21 A. After that, they hit with us the Kalashnikov butts. They put some

22 kind of plastic or rubber, I don't exactly know what it was.

23 Q. And how long did the test last?

24 A. This test lasted for about ten minutes.

25 Q. And you said: They hit with us Kalashnikov butts. What part of

Page 2010

1 your body was hit?

2 A. They hit us on our hands and on our back.

3 Q. And what happened after the test was over?

4 A. After the test was over, they took us to another room and they

5 continued beating us in all possible ways.

6 Q. You state in your statement that you stayed at Prolece police

7 station until Monday evening, the 13th of August, 2001. My question to

8 is: During the entire stay you had at Prolece police station, were you

9 ever interviewed?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were you ever asked any questions about events in Ljuboten on the

12 10th to 12th August 2001 at Prolece police station?

13 A. No.

14 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to

15 hand out some exhibits. We have enough copies also for the Defence.

16 I would like to ask the usher to use tab 5 first with the

17 witness. You had enough copies. I gave you ...

18 The admitted exhibit number is P51, ERN number is N002-0082. An

19 Official Note from 13th August 2001.

20 Q. In its first paragraph the document mentions nine persons and your

21 name, Mr. Ali, is also mentioned there. Do you find your name?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. It states in that first paragraph that on the 12th of August, in

24 the police station Kisela Voda interviews were conducted. My question to

25 you is: Were you, as it is alleged in that document here, interviewed at

Page 2011

1 the police station, Kisela Voda, or Prolece that night?

2 A. No.

3 Q. If I can go on to the third paragraph of that document, it states,

4 talking about the nine persons, including you, that with regard to the

5 events in Ljuboten, the following occurred there, and I quote now: "The

6 persons allegedly said," and I quote, "'shooting could be heard at each

7 side of the village. Actually, fire was led between the police of the

8 Republic of Macedonia and the terrorist gangs. The above-mentioned

9 persons stated they noticed many terrorists engaged in fights having

10 weapons.'"?

11 Do you recall that you --

12 A. No.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this information?

14 A. No.

15 Q. If you could please look at tab 4 in the binder in front of you.

16 ERN is N004-4887. What do you recognise on this picture?

17 A. This is the Bit Pazar police station.

18 Q. And had you been -- what happened on that weekend or after that

19 weekend, in relation to Bit Pazar police station?

20 A. They took us to the basement in some basement cells. They

21 maltreated us very much and there was a police officer there I knew named

22 Goran. There were other police officers as well.

23 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender that document into evidence, Your

24 Honours.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

Page 2012

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P264, Your Honours.


3 Q. In the statement you stated that in the evening of 14th of August

4 you were taken out of that police station, Bit Pazar, to be transferred to

5 the Skopje Court. What happened to you when you were boarding the van?

6 A. Here again, we were ill-treated. My nose was broken. They took

7 us in the van, and from there, they took us to the court. In the Court,

8 they also maltreated us. In the hall, they beat us. There was a -- a

9 judge there who walked on my -- on my feet and she told the police, "Why

10 did you bring them here? Why didn't you kill them?" From there we

11 entered the court.

12 Q. Can I just ask you who was beating you in the hall of the Skopje

13 Court?

14 A. The police, and there was a female judge who walked on my legs and

15 she wanted to cut off my toes. I was wearing sandals.

16 Q. Why do you believe it was the police who beat you?

17 A. Because they were wearing uniforms and they had weapons.

18 Q. What type of uniform?

19 A. Police --

20 Q. Can you describe --

21 A. -- uniforms.

22 Q. Can you describe the colour or the insignia?

23 A. Yes. They had police insignia. They had also on their arms the

24 insignia of their grades.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, ranks.

Page 2013


2 Q. And what colour did the uniforms have?

3 A. Blue, police colour.

4 Q. And since there's also possibility that it could be the court

5 police, do you remember that this is --

6 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I have to object. I really apologise,

7 but this is enormously leading, and my colleague knows that this is very

8 much a live issue in the case.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Mr. Neuner.


11 Q. To the best of your recollection, what type of policemen were

12 beating you in the Skopje hall -- in the hall of the Skopje Court?

13 A. There were police officers, reservists, and active police officers

14 who were on duty.

15 Q. When you, after the beating, had to enter the courtroom, how did

16 you look?

17 A. Then we were 90 per cent exhausted.

18 Q. And how was your face looking like?

19 A. Face was covered with blood and my nose was broken.

20 Q. And what happened inside the courtroom?

21 A. In the courtroom, we were seated. We were read all the

22 documents. I only -- I was given a paper to sign. They said, "Either you

23 sign or I will call the police in the courtroom." And this is what I

24 did. I signed the document.

25 Q. You say "they said." Who spoke these words to you?

Page 2014

1 A. There were members of the court, there was a lawyer and there was

2 a person writing on a writing machine.

3 Q. And who of these persons spoke these words to you?

4 A. The judge, and if I see this judge, I can recognise him or her.

5 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, it is 12.30. If you wish to go for a

6 break.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It is time for the second break, Mr. Neuner, if

8 that is convenient. And we will resume at 1.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.


13 Q. Mr. Ali, I want to take you to tab 6 of your binder, and the

14 document in tab 6. Exhibit number is P55, 65 ter number 21.27, ERN number

15 N002-1220 to 1221.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask you

17 a question, because there are two mistakes made.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. What is that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name of my son is recorded as

20 "Erhan." His name is Erxhan. And it had has been recorded that he was

21 killed on the 12th, but he was killed on the 10th of August, in the

22 afternoon, on that Friday. And I was not taken in at Buzalak. I was

23 taken in at the location called Kodra e Zajmit.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That seems to be three matters that you

25 identified that you feel are not correct in this. The spelling of your

Page 2015

1 son, when he was killed, and where you were taken in.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Does that help you, Mr. Neuner?


7 Q. Mr. Ali, if you could please look at page 2 of that document. I

8 believe it is the first line in the Macedonian translation, or in the

9 Macedonian original. Is here your son's name spelled correctly, Erxhan?

10 A. Yes, here it is correctly, Erxhan.

11 Q. And in the middle -- in the lower middle of that page, do you

12 recognise the signature?

13 A. This is written in English.

14 Q. Sorry. The witness might look at the English translation and not

15 at the original. ERN is N002-1221 of that page. It is tab 6, I believe.

16 My question was: Do you recognise the signature in the lower

17 middle of the page?

18 A. One of them I do, but not the other.

19 Q. Which one do you recognise?

20 A. The first one.

21 Q. In the middle of the page?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Whose signature is this, please?

24 A. Mine.

25 Q. I have read this document and my understanding is this is a

Page 2016

1 statement you gave. Can you confirm that?

2 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.

4 MR. METTRAUX: I don't understand the document to be a statement,

5 Your Honour. Those are notes taken of an interview or --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting you,

7 but this is not my signature and this is not my statement.


9 Q. So since you signed that document, can you explain what your

10 understanding was at the time you signed it?

11 JUDGE PARKER: He's just said it is not his signature, Mr. Neuner.

12 MR. NEUNER: Okay, sorry. Then I was confused, because on page 66

13 the witness said it was my signature. Page 66, line 24.

14 Q. Can we clarify this. The middle signature on that page, because

15 I asked that earlier, is that your signature or is it not your signature,

16 as you said a moment ago?

17 A. I'm not sure about this signature.

18 Q. If I take you back to the first page of that document, please. On

19 the upper part of that document, does it state your name here?

20 A. Yes, it does.

21 Q. And I read here the date, 21st of March, 2002.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you recall maybe an event on that day?

24 A. 21st of March 2003.

25 Q. It says in my translation 2002 and in the original as well.

Page 2017

1 A. Yes, yes, you're right, 2002. 21st of March, 2002.

2 Q. If I may put you to the second page of that document, back again.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The last paragraph talks about a hearing and the persons being

5 present there.

6 A. Yes, yes. Now I understood your question. That's correct. It is

7 my signature.

8 Q. In the lower middle -- in the lower middle part of the document.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If I may summarize briefly, it deals, as you already mentioned,

11 with your son Erxhan Ali. Where was that document recorded?

12 A. This document was recorded in the Skopje Court.

13 Q. And on that occasion, obviously your child Erxhan was discussed,

14 but my question to you is: When you came to the Skopje Court that day in

15 March 2002, did the persons who were present also ask you what happened to

16 you yourself, at the police stations in Prolece and Bit Pazar, in

17 mid-August 2001?

18 A. No, they didn't. They only asked me about Erxhan.

19 Q. And can you tell us at any point in time after you had been

20 released from Sutka prison, were you ever questioned by the Macedonian

21 authorities about your own fate, about the mistreatment you received at

22 the police stations and at Skopje Court in August 2001?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How is your medical condition today?

25 A. Very bad. I have pain on the right side and I also have pain in

Page 2018

1 my kidneys.

2 Q. I finally want to use the picture which is in tab 1 of your

3 binder.

4 MR. NEUNER: For the record, I will read it out. It's N004-4713.

5 65 ter number is 199.8.

6 Maybe the larger picture could be placed on the ELMO.

7 Q. Could I ask you to point out where your house was in August 2001.

8 Maybe the easiest --

9 A. Here.

10 Q. Could you maybe on the ELMO, because this is the largest picture

11 it is the easily visible, point out where your house is?

12 A. [No interpretation]

13 MR. NEUNER: If the technician could zoom a little bit to the

14 right -- or move a little bit to the right-hand side of the picture.

15 Could the technician please -- or may the usher move -- yeah, thank you.

16 If the usher could please give the witness a ball pencil that he

17 can encircle his house.

18 Q. Please, on the ELMO.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Would you mark a 1 next to this, please.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. And what happened to your house on Sunday, the 12th of

23 August, 2001?

24 A. On this Sunday, in August 2001 we were in the basement in this

25 house. In the morning, a shell fell here from the Macedonian forces. It

Page 2019

1 fell on my house. We stayed there until 6.00 in the afternoon, and from

2 there --

3 Q. Can I stop you for one second. What happened when the shell fell

4 on your house? What happened to your house?

5 A. It destroyed the entire roof of the house and the shell fell

6 inside the room and destroyed the room. Only the basement was not touched

7 by the grenade.

8 Q. And I interrupted you. If you could please go on. You said you

9 stayed until 6.00 in the afternoon. And then?

10 A. We then left the house and we walked through the yards of

11 neighbours' house. And when we arrived at Adem Ademi's meadow, I wanted

12 to get on the road, and there I saw Sulejmani killed.

13 Q. Can you mark from your house to where you took on that day?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And where did you see the body lying?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Can you point to that place, please.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. If you could just encircle that and mark it with a 2, please.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Just one clarifying question. You said you saw Sulejmani killed.

22 Who are you referring to by Sulejmani?

23 A. Sulejman Jashari.

24 Q. Are you sure about the last name, because yesterday evening you

25 told me another name.

Page 2020

1 A. I apologise. It's Sulejman Bajrami.

2 Q. Why do you believe it was Sulejman Bajrami?

3 A. Well, first of all, he is my neighbour; and he is also a cousin of

4 mine, a relative.

5 Q. Was this the only body you saw that day?

6 A. Yes. I only saw Sulejman.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 MR. NEUNER: I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Are you planning to tender that last --

10 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

11 JUDGE PARKER: -- sketch?

12 MR. NEUNER: I just noticed that I have one more question. I

13 apologise.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Well, this photograph as marked will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P265, Your Honours.


17 Q. One more clarifying question. You mentioned Kodra e Zajmit and

18 Buzalak. Are these names in the Albanian and Macedonian language for one

19 and the same place?

20 A. Yes, this is a name.

21 Q. The name for the same place, this was my question, or are these

22 different places?

23 A. Buzalak is a different place from Kodra e Zajmit. Kodra e Zajmit

24 is the Albanian term for this location, while in Macedonian it is Zajmski

25 Rid [phoen].

Page 2021

1 Q. What I fail to understand is are we talking about one and the same

2 locations or about different locations, if you could please clarify?

3 A. We are talking about different locations. Buzalak is nearer to

4 the village, while Kodra e Zajmit, it's about three or four kilometres

5 further down, in the direction of Skopje.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MR. NEUNER: No further questions.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 Mr. Mettraux.

10 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ali. My name is Guenael Mettraux and together

13 with my colleague Edina Residovic I'm representing Mr. Boskoski. Before

14 we start, Mr. Ali, I would like to express our sincere condolences for the

15 loss of your son on behalf of Mr. Boskoski and the members of the team.

16 Sir, I would like to take you back to Friday, the 10th of August.

17 You will recall in your statement you have indicated to the Prosecution

18 that shelling onto the village started around 8.00 in the morning. Can

19 you remember that, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I understood you told the Prosecution that the shelling lasted

22 for approximately two hours or a couple of hours; is that correct, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that correct also that you then went to work in your field?

25 A. I went in the fields in the afternoon.

Page 2022

1 Q. Do you recall -- can you recall, sir, approximately at what time

2 you went?

3 A. At around 3.00 p.m. In the afternoon, I'm not exactly sure. At

4 about 3.00 in the afternoon.

5 Q. Can you recall with whom you went to the field on that day and at

6 that time?

7 A. I was with Musliu Rexhepi.

8 Q. Is it correct that your brother Vehap also accompanied you on that

9 day?

10 A. Where do you mean?

11 Q. To the field, sir.

12 A. I don't know. I didn't reach the field because of the shelling.

13 We stopped on the road. We stayed there with Musliu, and when my son was

14 killed, I returned back.

15 Q. But my question, sir, was, was your brother Vehap accompanying you

16 on that day when you went towards your field?

17 A. No, he wasn't.

18 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, if I may ask that this witness

19 be shown 1D188. It's ERN 1D002116, and the correct page would be 2121,

20 Your Honour, and that is the addendum of that witness.

21 Q. Sir, this is the record that we received from the Prosecution of a

22 meeting which you had on the 26th of April, 2007 with representatives of

23 the Prosecution. And you are -- you are recorded as saying the

24 following: "I have been together with my brother Vehap Ali (all the time

25 during this weekend in August)."

Page 2023

1 Is that what you told the Prosecutor, sir?

2 A. I wasn't at the field with my brother. When I returned back at

3 home when Erxhan was killed I found my brother in the house at home.

4 MR. METTRAUX: Well, can the witness be shown 1D193, that would be

5 1D002173, and for the registry's benefit, there is a translation in

6 Macedonian at 1D002181.

7 Q. Sir, the document that I'm going to show you is a statement taken

8 by Xhavit Ali. Sir, is that your father?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. METTRAUX: I'll ask the registry to turn to the second page of

11 that document, and if is it technically feasible to focus on paragraph 3

12 of that statement.

13 Q. Can you see paragraph 3 of that document, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'll read it out to you. It says this: "On Friday of 10 August

16 2001 at about 10.00 a.m., shelling started. I was at the house of my

17 brother Avdil Aliu. My wife, my daughter, and my nephews and one niece

18 were in my house. My two sons, Isni Ali and Vehap Ali, were working on

19 our tobacco field which is two kilometres from my house in the direction

20 of Rastak."

21 Can you see that? Can you see that, sir?

22 A. I haven't heard anything.

23 MR. METTRAUX: Could the usher verify if Mr. Ali has the Albanian

24 channel on, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is all right now.

Page 2024


2 Q. Sir, I will read the passage again. As I mentioned earlier, this

3 comes from the statement taken from your father, Xhavit on the 4th of

4 October 2004. And it read as follows. "On Friday of 10 August 2001, at

5 about 10.00 a.m., shelling started. I was at the house of my brother

6 Avdil Aliu, my wife, my daughter and my two nephews and one niece were in

7 my house. My two sons Isni Ali and Vehap Ali were working on our tobacco

8 field which is about two kilometres from my house in the direction of

9 Rastak?

10 Can you see this?

11 A. Yes, I can see.

12 Q. And that is not sure about the exact time when the shelling

13 started and that is only an estimation.

14 Sir, what your father told the Prosecutor on the 4th of October,

15 2004 was that you and your brother were in the field on that day; is that

16 correct?

17 A. We went -- we start to go to the field, but he didn't know when

18 the shelling started. I returned to the home of my uncle, Ramadan Aliu.

19 His house was nearby. He thought that we went to the field.

20 Q. Well, sir, when you returned from the field, did you go to the

21 house of your uncle, Ramadan Aliu or did you go to the house of your uncle

22 Avdil?

23 A. We didn't go to the field in the morning, because when the

24 shelling started, it started as of 8.00 in the morning with light

25 weapons. We went to the house of my uncle Ramadan Aliu. We stayed there

Page 2025

1 for about one or two hours. I'm not sure how much we stayed, and then

2 returned back home. Then the heavier shelling started. We stayed there

3 until 2.00 at home and all the relatives and uncles gathered in the

4 basement. Then when the shelling stopped we set off for the field.

5 Q. You've indicated you in fact did not go to work at the field; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said that on your way to the field the shelling started again;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you said that because the shelling had started again, you went

12 to the house of your uncle Ramadan Aliu; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, could the witness please be shown his

15 statement. It's under P63 and that would be the second page.

16 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at the -- do you have the statement in

17 front of you, sir?

18 A. Yes, I have it.

19 Q. And I'd ask you to focus on paragraph 3 which I will read out to

20 you. It is the last sentence, sir. It says this: "We went to our

21 tobacco field along with Musliu Rexhepi. The field is about 300 metres

22 away from my house."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Then at paragraph 4 you go on to say this: "At about 5.00 in the

Page 2026

1 afternoon we were still in the field when we heard that the shelling and

2 shooting from the same direction as before started again."

3 Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "Then we went into the basement of my uncle Avdil Aliu's house.

6 We were about ten people" --

7 A. Avdil Aliu, yes.

8 Q. "We were about ten people in the basement and I made a phone call

9 from one of my neighbour's mobile phone."

10 Sir, is this Avdil Aliu the same person as Ramadan Aliu?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. You've indicated, I think, that as you returned to the

13 house --

14 A. Ramadan Aliu is Avdil Aliu's brother.

15 Q. And do they live in the same house, sir?

16 A. Ramadan Aliu has another house, it's a different house.

17 Q. So, sir, which house did you go to when you returned having

18 attempted to go to the field, to the house of Ramadan Aliu or the house of

19 Avdil Aliu, as you have said in your statement?

20 A. In the morning, I was in the house of Ramadan Aliu.

21 Q. But, sir, you have just said that you went or tried to go to the

22 field at 3.00 in the afternoon; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that's the afternoon, right?

25 A. Yes. The afternoon. When we set off to the field we stopped to

Page 2027

1 talk, to Musliu Rexhepi and while we were talking the shelling started and

2 I then returned to the house of Avdil Aliu.

3 Q. Now are you saying, sir, that you did not go to the house of

4 Ramadan Aliu, is that correct, is that your evidence?

5 A. Not in the afternoon.

6 Q. So what you said earlier that you went to the house in the

7 basement -- in the house, I'm sorry, of Ramadan Aliu upon returning from

8 the field was incorrect. Do I understand you properly?

9 A. When we returned back from the field, we didn't go to the house of

10 Ramadan Aliu.

11 Q. Very well. Then you are now saying that went back to the house of

12 your uncle Avdil. I understand you to be saying that there were a number

13 of people in the house at the time. Is that correct?

14 A. There was my uncle, the wives of the uncles and a neighbour who

15 were sticking the tobacco.

16 Q. When you say your uncle was present, you're talking about Avdil,

17 aren't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What about your brother Vehap. Was he with you at this stage?

20 A. No. The brother was at home.

21 Q. So when you have indicated to the Prosecutor that you spent your

22 entire weekend with your brother Vehap, that was not exactly correct, is

23 it?

24 A. On Friday, when Erxhan was killed, when I was informed at my

25 uncle's house by phone, I went at my home, I found Vehap there at my

Page 2028

1 father's home.

2 Q. So the answer to my question, sir, is no, you didn't spend the

3 entire weekend with your brother Vehap, is that correct?

4 A. I spent from the Friday until the time when you were captured by

5 the police and sent to the police station.

6 Q. Very well. And as you were in --

7 A. On Sunday.

8 Q. As you were back in the house of your uncle Avdil, you didn't see

9 him leave the house at any stage, did you?

10 A. Vehap was not at Avdil's house.

11 Q. I'm sorry, sir, perhaps I didn't put my question very properly to

12 you. I was asking about your uncle Avdil. You explained that you

13 returned from your attempt to go to your field to the house of Avdil and

14 that Avdil was present at the time.

15 My question is: : Whilst you were back at the house of Avdil,, you

16 did not see him leave that house at any stage on that day, right?

17 A. At the time when we were at Avdil's home at around 5.00, there

18 were Avdil, his wife, his children, and two neighbours, and they were

19 curing tobacco.

20 Q. And your cousin Erhan was not present at the house at that time;

21 is that correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know where he was, sir, at the time?

24 A. No. As I was told at home, they were on their way home. I don't

25 know exactly.

Page 2029

1 Q. And is that correct that you stated to the Prosecutor that as you

2 were in Mr. Avdil's Aliu's house, you tried to call your own home, first

3 on a mobile phone and then on a land line. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, this is correct.

5 Q. And your wife answered your call on that occasion; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And she informed you that your son Erxhan had been killed; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then you told the Prosecution that the next day, on Saturday,

12 the 11th, at around 2.00 in the afternoon, you managed eventually to bury

13 your son; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So, sir, if someone were to claim that it's not your wife but your

16 uncle who told you that your son was dead, he or she would not be telling

17 the truth; is that correct?

18 A. It is my wife who told me on the phone.

19 Q. Sir, I'll repeat my question. If a person were to claim that it

20 was he who told you about the death of your son and not your wife, he

21 would not be saying the truth; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, he lies.

23 Q. And if that person was your uncle, sir, he would be lying,

24 wouldn't he?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2030

1 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I will ask that the witness be shown

2 1D192. It is ERN 1D002165. And I do not believe we have a Macedonian

3 translation, Your Honour, so I will read the passage. I would kindly ask

4 the registry to go to the third page of that statement.

5 Q. Sir, this is again a statement of your uncle Avdil Aliu taken by

6 the office of the prosecutor at the end of the month of October 2003, and

7 I would like to you focus on paragraph 7 of that document. Can you see

8 it, sir? I apologise, it is in English only, so I'll read it out to you.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This is what your uncle said: "Then I came back to the basement of

11 my house and I told my children to stop the work. The shelling and

12 shooting lasted all the while. At the time when dusk was falling I

13 inferred Isni about the death of his son. Then we moved everybody to

14 Isni's house."

15 So, sir, you're saying this is incorrect, isn't it? This is

16 wrong?

17 A. When my son was killed all people came to my house, this is

18 correct, but it is my wife who told me on the phone that Erxhan was

19 killed.

20 Q. And if someone was saying that Erxhan was buried not in the

21 afternoon and not at 2.00 in the afternoon but in the evening on Saturday

22 afternoon and not by you but by three other people, again this person

23 would be lying; is that correct?

24 A. The -- he was buried by Fasli, who is now dead, the uncles, and I

25 was present there. The burial was done at 2.00. Maybe not exactly at

Page 2031

1 2.00, but we didn't have -- we couldn't see the hour, the time. We were

2 all traumatised. We didn't know where we were.

3 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown 1D193. That is

4 ERN 1D002173. And in the Macedonian version it is 1D002181.

5 Your Honour, I see the time. Would you like me it continue for a

6 few minutes?

7 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid we really should bring it to an end,

8 Mr. Mettraux.

9 We will continue tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.

10 Could I mention one matter so that counsel can plan accordingly

11 and in particular Mr. Saxon.

12 Circumstances have arisen which indicate that it will not be

13 feasible for the Chamber to sit on the Friday of next week. So that if

14 you could plan your witness -- future witness list accordingly, Mr. Saxon.

15 MR. SAXON: Thank you for the information, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: So a week and a half away, not the coming Friday.

17 We will adjourn now until tomorrow at 9.00.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of June,

20 2007, at 9.00 a.m.