1 Friday, 15 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 I would remind the witness of the affirmation made at the
8 beginning of his evidence, which continues to apply.
9 Now, Mr. Saxon.
10 WITNESS: WITNESS M-056 [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 MR. SAXON: Your Honours can we move into private session, please.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 2117-2129 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
24 MR. SAXON: I'd like to show the witness some more video material,
25 Your Honours. And the transcripts of this video material that we're going
1 to show now can be found at tab 21. This video material that we're going
2 to show now comes from Prosecution 65 ter number 988. And the first clip
3 that we're going to show deals with a press conference given during the
4 autumn of 2001. And the clip will begin at about 2 minutes and 14
5 seconds, and I will ask to pause a few times to ask the witness some
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please, and this is 2.27.9.
9 Q. First of all, Witness, do you recognise the two gentlemen that you
10 see here in front of you?
11 A. Yes, I recognise them.
12 Q. Who is the gentleman seated on our left-hand side who's wearing a
13 light blue uniform?
14 A. That is the police General Risto Galevski.
15 Q. And on the -- on our right-hand side, who is the gentleman there
16 wearing a dark suit?
17 A. It is the minister of the interior.
18 Q. Mr. Boskoski?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. We just heard the journalist speaking on this video, talking about
21 a plan to employ the security forces to re-establish complete control of
22 the territory of the Republic of Macedonia. We see that the plan was
23 intended to enable the safe return and comprehensive security of all
25 Help us, please. In 2001 where -- were there villages in
1 Macedonia where police units could not enter?
2 A. There were fortified positions and villages where we did not
4 MR. SAXON: Can we continue, please.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please. This is at 3.27.1.
7 Q. And again we see the police general identified as Risto Galevski.
8 Do you know what the particular position or duties General Galevski had in
9 2001, in the summer/autumn of 2001?
10 A. As the most senior in the police, he was a commander of all bodies
11 an operations.
12 Q. And in the ministry, who was above Risto Galevski?
13 A. The director for public security.
14 Q. And the name of the director of public security?
15 A. At that time director was Goran Mitevski.
16 Q. And then in the ministry who was above the director of public
18 A. Above the director are the state secretary, deputy minister and
19 the minister of the interior.
20 MR. SAXON: Can we continue with this video, please.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please.
23 Q. We see a gentleman on our right, to the right of Mr. Boskoski, who
24 has just been speaking. Can you identify who that person was, Witness
1 A. The director of public security, Goran Mitevski.
2 MR. SAXON: Can we continue, please.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Mr. Boskoski here says that he is there speaking as a member of
6 the Macedonian Security Council. Witness, can you explain to us what the
7 Macedonian Security Council was in 2001?
8 A. In Macedonia, it used to exist and it exists now, the Security
9 Council, where members are the highest representatives of the government,
10 by office the minister of the interior, the director of public security,
11 and the director of the intelligence agency and of course the minister of
13 MR. SAXON: Can we continue, please.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We would like to ask the
17 Prosecutor to tell us the exact date or the approximate time of this press
18 conference taking place.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Can you help there.
20 MR. SAXON: I do not have a exact date, Your Honour. I know that
21 it is after the signing of the Ohrid agreement. It is believed this would
22 be -- this press conference was held in September 2001. But I can't give
23 an exact date.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 MR. SAXON: Can we continue, please.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please.
3 Q. We have here Mr. Boskoski talking about the fact that winter is
4 coming on, and he remarks that Macedonians from the western part of
5 Macedonia are beginning to leave the country and we will have no one to
6 resettle the area with.
7 Can you help us with this, Witness? If you know, why were
8 Macedonians beginning to leave the western part of Macedonia at that time?
9 A. They started leaving the villages that were surrounded by Albanian
10 villages because they were afraid, because they were combat operations
12 Q. We've stopped here at 5 --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. SAXON: We've stopped here at 5.52.3. I would seek to tender
15 this clip, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P276, Your Honours.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript, if
21 the Prosecutor could clarify to us what operations was the Minister
22 Boskoski discussing here.
23 JUDGE PARKER: I will ask Mr. Saxon, but if anybody ought to know,
24 it's your client.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will ask these
1 questions of the witnesses who probably know this, but the Prosecutor is
2 tendering evidence probably also because of the contents on which this
3 evidence is based, so we would like to know what the Prosecutor is
4 referring at.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: If I can be of assistance, Your Honour, it is the
8 Prosecution's understanding and belief that the operations being discussed
9 are operations that were undertaken by the forces of the Ministry of the
10 Interior assisted by units of the Macedonian army to re-enter and take
11 control again of parts of Macedonia that had previously been controlled by
12 the organisation called the NLA.
13 JUDGE PARKER: And their approximate dates?
14 MR. SAXON: Excuse me, Your Honour. When you refer to "their,"
15 you're referring to the dates of the operation? The Autumn of 2001, Your
16 Honour, October and November of 2001.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
18 MR. SAXON: The next clip we would like to show begins at 23.55 of
19 this video. If we could start this clip, please
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would like to ask
24 what is the time of this event as well.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
1 MR. SAXON: May of 2002, Your Honour.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering that it
3 is outside of the scope of the indictment, we object to this video being
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, its relevance, please.
6 MR. SAXON: Its relevance, Your Honour is that it will show
7 different special units that were still under the command of the accused
8 Mr. Boskoski, including the units that this witness has referred to as the
9 Lions. That is the relevance, and I have some additional questions to ask
10 about it.
11 JUDGE PARKER: The relevance of us seeing these units in 2002? Is
12 it to do with their uniform --
13 MR. SAXON: Yes.
14 JUDGE PARKER: -- or something else?
15 MR. SAXON: It is to do with their uniforms, the size of the units
16 and the equipment that they used, that they had available to them.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Size and equipment doesn't seem to have much
18 relevance, if this is in 2002. Perhaps uniforms might. Is there anything
20 MR. SAXON: There is, Your Honour. Mr. Boskoski will be seen
21 speaking on this clip, and he will be making certain remarks related to
22 the conflict and the motives of the organisation known as the NLA and I
23 would like to explore these remarks with the witness, because Prosecution
24 believes they are relevant to the issue of armed conflict.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, you've heard that. Is there
1 anything further you would like to submit?
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we did not object to
3 what Mr. Boskoski said during 2001, because this is a period when he was
4 indicted as well. However, what Mr. Boskoski said in May 2002 and all
5 other related issues which, according to my learned colleague, would be
6 proven by this video-clip, in my belief are irrelevant for the scope of
7 this indictment. That's why we still object to this video-clip being
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will admit the evidence, allow it to be
11 played, but we are well conscious of what Ms. Residovic has put, and the
12 evidence will in due course need to be such that the Chamber is persuaded
13 that anything relevant to 2001 can be drawn from things said and seen in
15 Please proceed, Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON: Can we start this clip, please.
17 Actually, can we stop, please.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 Q. Witness, can you identify the gentleman you see here?
20 A. Yes. That was the prime minister of Republic of Macedonia, Ljupco
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. SAXON: This is at 24.25.3. Can we proceed, please.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. SAXON: Stop there, please. This is at 25.07.6.
1 Q. Witness, can you tell us, please, what kind of uniform is
2 Mr. Boskoski wearing here?
3 A. It is a military camouflage uniform.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. SAXON: Can we keep going, please.
6 [Videotape played]
7 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please. And, Your Honour, I
8 actually believe I misspoke before because I was confusing this with
9 another video-clip that I am going to show later. The reference of
10 Mr. Boskoski to the past nine months would indicate that this ceremony
11 took place in September or October of 2001.
12 Can we continue, please.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. SAXON: Stop there.
15 Q. We're stopping now, Witness, at the time 27.47.3 and I'm wondering
16 if you could help us here. Mr. Boskoski has just mentioned that if you --
17 the forces who were listening to him, if you had not defended these
18 villages today, they, too, would be on the terrorist menu for the creation
19 of a greater Albania. Help us help us if you can, please. What was this
20 concept of the creation of a greater Albania?
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we object to this
22 question. First of all, we don't know whether this witness attended this
23 ceremony. This is the first question that has to be asked. Secondly,, we
24 should ask the witness if he heard this speech. And thirdly, there is it
25 an expert witness for these national [as interpreted] issues.
1 These are the foundations of our objection. Thank you.
2 MR. SAXON: Shall I respond, Your Honour?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, whether or not this witness was present
5 at this speech or not does not seem to be an issue here. The issue that
6 we're presenting to the witness is if he can help us describe this concept
7 known as the creation of a greater Albania. Certainly the witness would
8 not have had to have been present this day to have this knowledge or not.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the witness
10 answers the question, my attention was drawn to mistake in the
11 transcript. First it says Lions special unit and it has to be Tigers
12 special unit, and my words that are spoken on the 24th page of the
13 transcript, line 14, what I said was that this witness is not an expert
14 for history and political issues. And the transcript says "national
16 JUDGE PARKER: There are differences, but they are not terribly
17 relevant, I don't think, in the context.
18 The questioning can continue, Mr. Saxon. It seems that what is
19 being asked is a question of a general understanding of political events
20 in the country, prompted by this specific reference in this speech rather
21 than an interpretation of this speech.
22 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Witness, can you help us, please. What was this concept of the
24 creation of a greater Albania that Mr. Boskoski was referring to here?
25 A. Every Macedonian is aware of the great Albania aspirations towards
1 the territory of Macedonia. This occurred throughout history and repeated
2 in 2001 and the war was just about that: To win a territory of the
3 Republic of Macedonia and to join it to that great concept of greater
5 Q. And this drive to create a greater Albania, was that one of the
6 reasons why the constitutional order was threatened at that time?
7 A. Yes, of course.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would tender --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry.
11 If we could continue just a few more seconds, please.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there.
14 Your Honour, I would seek to tender this clip, stopping at
15 28.12 -- I don't know if I have said something funny, but I will seek to
16 tender this clip, stopping at 28.12.8.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P277, Your Honours.
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the next video-clip that we will show
20 begins at 1.24.12 in the same video, and -- actually, no, that is not
21 correct. I will skip this clip in the interest of time.
22 We will go to a clip now beginning at 1.33.18, please. And this
23 is an occasion held on police day in Macedonia from the 7th of May, 2002.
24 JUDGE PARKER: You repeat your objection, Ms. Residovic?
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, because we were
1 able to see all the uniforms in the past clip that are in the interest of
2 the Prosecutor, so there is no need to see the celebration of these same
3 units once again.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the contents of this video-clip will be
7 relevant to the issue of Mr. Boskoski's continuing power and authority
8 over members of the Ministry of the Interior, and it will also be relevant
9 to the -- the mens rea, if you will, of Mr. Boskoski, because of a
10 particular comment that he makes in this video that I would like to
11 explore with the witness.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying that the content of this video
13 reveals motivations or intentions that relate to the events the subject of
14 the indictment?
15 MR. SAXON: Yes, that is -- I'm sorry that I didn't state it as
16 clearly as you just did. Yes.
17 JUDGE PARKER: I'm really trying to understand what you're
19 MR. SAXON: Yes, yes.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 MR. SAXON: Can we start again, please.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please.
24 Q. Witness, what is this symbol that we see on this flag?
25 A. That's the historical symbol of Macedonia starting from ancient
1 Macedonia until today. That is the symbol of the Macedonian warrior, the
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. SAXON: Can we continue, please.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. SAXON: Stop.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. SAXON: Can we stop, please.
9 Q. Witness, you see Mr. Boskoski standing there in a dark suit. Do
10 you see him there? This is at 184.108.40.206. Do you see him there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. There is a man just to Mr. Boskoski's left. Can you identify that
13 person, please?
14 A. Yes. That is Goran Stojkov.
15 Q. And who was Goran Stojkov?
16 A. He was appointed the commander of the new unit.
17 Q. Do you know what political party Mr. Stojkov belonged to?
18 A. No.
19 MR. SAXON: Can we continue, please.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. SAXON: Can we stop -- no, can we go one line further, please.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. SAXON:
24 Q. In this video, Witness, Mr. Boskoski tells the assembled
25 men: "What is it that we want to condemn? No, the only thing that can be
1 condemned is treason, That which will not be preserved for the future."
2 My question for you is this: During the events in 2001 did you
3 hear Mr. Boskoski make similar comments in public?
4 A. No.
5 MR. SAXON: Can we continue, please.
6 [Videotape played]
7 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please.
8 Your Honour, I would seek to tender this video.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit P278, Your Honours.
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if could you clarify something for me,
12 are we in private session or public session?
13 JUDGE PARKER: We're in public session.
14 MR. SAXON: Okay. Can we move into private session briefly, Your
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 2144-2146 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
20 JUDGE PARKER: That concludes your examination, does it,
21 Mr. Saxon?
22 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
24 We will now have the first break, and we will resume at five
25 minutes past 11.00, and we'll continue then.
1 We will now adjourn.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
5 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Good day, Mr. M-056. Mr. M-056, before I start asking you
8 questions, I will give you a suggestion or a cautioning. I'm actually
9 speaking the language that you probably understand, and I also understand
10 the language that you are using. This is why you would be able to answer
11 my questions swiftly. But I would like to ask you to wait for the
12 question translated into English so that His Honours and everyone else in
13 the courtroom are able to follow my questions and also your testimony.
14 Have you understood this?
15 A. Good day to you as well. I understood you completely.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask
17 that we move into a private session briefly.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
19 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So, I could consider, Mr. M-056, that having in mind the duties
25 that you performed, you are aware of the competences and responsibilities
1 of individual bodies within the Ministry of the Interior, especially the
2 competences and the responsibilities of the police units. Is that so?
3 A. Yes, this is correct.
4 Q. When my learned colleague asked you, you spoke about the terrorist
5 attacks of the Albanian groups in 2001. Do you remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The first terrorist attacks took place actually on the 11th of
8 January, 2001, in Aracinovo. Is this correct?
9 A. Yes, this is correct.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I did not wait for
11 it to be announced that we are into a public session.
12 JUDGE PARKER: We are now in public session, Ms. Residovic. Thank
13 you for that.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise for not
15 waiting for that announcement.
16 Q. And on that 11th of January, the police station [as interpreted]
17 In the village of Aracinovo was attacked and three police officers were
18 killed; is that correct?
19 A. It is correct, yes.
20 Q. And after that event, the attacks of the terrorist groups
21 continued; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, they continued.
23 Q. These attacks were particularly focussed in the Kumanovo, Tetovo,
24 and in part of the Skopje region; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is correct.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Kumanovo, Tetovo
2 regions and in part of the Skopje region.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. The police stations and patrols were the target of these Albanian
5 terrorist attacks. Targets were also military facilities, but it was not
6 only them. It was also the journalist teams, workers who were travelling
7 to work and civilian population. Is that correct?
8 A. Absolutely correct.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Transcript 36 line 16 I said that
10 the police patrol was attacked while it is written that a police station
11 was attacked. So I move that it is corrected.
12 Q. When answering the questions of my learned colleague about the
13 reason why the security forces and the army were deployed in the regions
14 indicated, you, as far as I remember, stated that the constitutional order
15 there was at risk and that you needed to establish public law and order in
16 that region. Is that correct? Have I understood you well?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-056, that as a result of those attacks a big
19 portion of the Macedonian population was forced to leave their homes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you aware, Mr. M-056, that those terrorist groups were also
22 terrorising the local Albanian population who did not agree to offer
23 assistance or support -- support to the NLA?
24 A. Yes, there were such cases as well.
25 Q. Are you also aware of the cases where the Albanians who cooperated
1 with the Macedonian authorities were subjected to special terror and
3 A. Yes, this is correct.
4 Q. Tell me, am I right in saying that, from the viewpoint of the
5 security of the country and all citizens the fact that those groups
6 appeared in the vicinity of the border with Kosovo and also their links to
7 the terrorist groups from Kosovo made the situation even more difficult.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You already stated when the video-clips were shown to you about
10 the participation of the army of the Republic of Macedonia, and I'm now
11 asking you, so you are aware that very soon afterwards, sometime in March
12 2001, the army was actively involved in the suppressing of the terrorist
14 A. I think that their involvement started a bit later.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Do we need to be in private session?
16 Oh, look, I'm sorry, I had lost track. Now we're all in the same
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is a bit easier for us now.
19 Thank you.
20 Q. Customarily the army of the Republic of Macedonia controls the
21 border in the depth of 10 kilometres. Are you aware that during that
22 period the army of the Republic of Macedonia expanded the control of the
23 territory to a belt of 20 kilometres in order to prevent the entry of
24 terrorist groups from another area into the territory of the Republic of
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Mr. M-056, you were shown yesterday a video-clip where you saw the
3 Minister Boskoski speaking about the situation related to Vaksince and
4 the -- the village of Slupcane. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You also saw in another video-clip a big group of inhabitants. It
7 was most probably Albanian population, if one could judge that by their
8 apparel, that needed to be evacuated from that region? Did you see that
10 A. Yes, I saw it.
11 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-056, that both army and the police, without
12 [as interpreted] starting any action against the terrorist groups, would
13 warn and evacuate the population from the area where the actions were
14 about to take place?
15 A. Yes. There would be warnings always.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Line 14, it should be "before
17 starting an action."
18 Your Honours, because we will show several documents to the
19 witness to make the following easier, we have prepared binders for the
20 Chamber and for my colleagues Prosecutors and for the witness, and so we
21 would like to ask the assistance of the usher now in distributing those
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
25 witness is shown now Prosecutor's Exhibit P45, page number N001-P286 --
1 5286 and English N005-7606-0336.
2 Q. Mr. M-056, in your binder this document is behind this marking
3 zero, so behind the tab zero.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to
5 please show the witness that, help him find this in the binder, because
6 this should be the first document that you can see in that binder, but you
7 have also the Macedonian translation there.
8 I will like to ask again to show P45 to the witness, Macedonian
9 page N001-5286, and English 005 -- N005-7606-0336.
10 I don't see it displayed on the screen. It is all right now.
11 Thank you.
12 Q. I would like to ask you, Mr. M-056, to see on this first page this
13 is the appeal from the Ministries of Defence and of the interior. Do you
14 see this text?
15 A. Yes, I see it.
16 Q. Communique from the Ministry of Interior of March 29th, 2001. You
17 can see when you look at the first paragraph that the Ministry of Defence
18 and the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Macedonia invite the
19 civilian population of the Kumanovo villages Slupcane and Vaksince to
20 urgently temporarily leave their homes. In the second paragraph, it is
21 stated at the end that the inhabitants need to go towards Kumanovo,
22 Tabanovce and Lipkovo where the police would accept them in an organised
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment: There is a lot of noise
25 in our headsets, so we ask that this is please corrected.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you see it?
3 A. Yes, I see it.
4 Q. Is this a document that corroborates what you testified about,
5 that the authorities of Macedonia, and especially the Ministry of the
6 Interior, before they would start an action, they invited the population
7 to take shelter in order to avoid any civilian casualties?
8 A. Yes, this is correct.
9 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you were shown a video-clip where a part of
10 a speech of Minister Boskoski was featured. In order to save time, I will
11 not repeat the video-clip, but I will repeat the words that were uttered
12 by the Minister Boskoski in that clip.
13 Then he stated, if you remember hearing this yesterday, that a
14 priority task for our ministry is as I have stated, and this is the
15 position of the government of the highest officials of the Republic of
16 Macedonia, to remove this civilian population from this 20 days' long
17 hostage drama which fell on to them.
18 Do you remember that you heard this when the video-clip was shown?
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 Q. When Boskoski spoke about the 20 day's long hostage drama --
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] There is no answer in line 22.
22 The witness answered yes.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The answers of the witness are barely audible to
24 us because of the noise. This is the interpreter's comment.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask, since we hear
1 that noise as well, maybe the technicians should look into this, because I
2 can readily imagine that this is disrupting the interpretation.
3 Let us try now.
4 Q. So when the Minister Boskoski spoke about the 20 day's long
5 hostage drama, would it be proper to say that these civilians were
6 hostages of the terrorist groups for that 20 days' period?
7 THE INTERPRETER: We do not hear the witness at all. We just see
8 him moving lips. Interpreter's comment.
9 JUDGE PARKER: There seems to be a problem with the interpreters
10 hearing the evidence of the witness.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We would like to ask to have
12 someone help the witness.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 [Technical difficulty]
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please, Witness, read from the document
17 you have in front of you, just a few words, any words into the microphone,
18 so that the technicians can check whether they have now corrected the
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The defence minister and the
21 interior minister of the Republic of Macedonia send an appeal to" --
22 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... Thank you.
23 And we certainly seem to get an interpretation, so I would say that the
24 problem has been dealt with. Thank you very much.
25 And we will continue, Ms. Residovic.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. M-056, I will repeat the previous question. Namely, when
3 Minister Boskoski spoke about this 20-day long hostage drama, would it be
4 correct to say that these civilians were in fact hostages of terrorist
5 groups during those 20 days?
6 A. Yes. We had information that the civilian population was being
7 held as a live shield, to be prevented from entering the villages, I'm
9 Q. Mr. Boskoski also said that every minute we are waiting for buses
10 to transport the civilian population towards Kumanovo.
11 My question, Mr. M-056, would be whether it is correct the police
12 and other authorities assisted the population to safely move from that
13 area into a more secure area.
14 A. Yes, this is correct.
15 Q. Moreover, Minister Boskoski said the following: I think that
16 although it is important to defeat then, I add here that terrorists,
17 because he refers to them, therefore, even though it is important to
18 defeat them, it is even more important that a state top authorities for us
19 to do -- to do efforts to make our utmost to return peace to Albanian
20 population who represent the majority in these areas in the villages of
21 Vaksince, Lojane and Lipkovo.
22 You remember that this is what Minister Boskoski said yesterday in
23 the video-clip?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I would ask you, Mr. M-056, were you aware that already by that
1 time, as it was mentioned by Minister Boskoski the state leadership,
2 namely the president of the republic and the Security Council was already
3 making the decisions on all military actions in the country?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Moreover, I would like to ask you whether you were aware, as we
6 heard this from the minister, that the state leadership and the ministry
7 to you who have participated in these actions were asked to take into a
8 special account, into strict account of the security of the population?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And as we could hear from what the minister said, were you aware
11 at that time that Minister Boskoski also personally always in his public
12 statements has always -- always wanted and always was in favour of
13 protecting the civilian population?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. From what we heard from Minister Boskoski, it results that it
16 was -- that the special task was to -- was to restore peace and to return
17 the civilian population to their homes. Now, Mr. M-056, I'm interested
18 whether, is it correct that both Macedonian authorities and Macedonian
19 police with what they're doing, efforts to ensure that all the Albanian
20 civilians would return to their homes?
21 A. Yes, we were doing all our -- all our utmost effort to restore
22 peace and to make people come -- go back to their homes.
23 Q. And if we speak of this area which the video-clip referred to, you
24 are aware that all the Albanians returned to their homes in Lipkov,
25 Vaksince and Lojane?
1 A. Yes, they did return.
2 Q. However, can you testify that -- that this is not the case with
3 the Macedonian population and that the expelled Macedonian population from
4 the territories of activity of the terrorist groups has returned in very
5 insignificant number?
6 A. Yes, the Macedonian population did -- hardly returned home. There
7 is a considerable number living in collective refugee centres.
8 Q. And at the beginning of my questions, I asked you whether it was
9 correct that these attacks had started in Aracinovo. Could you confirm
10 that there was no -- there is no Macedonian family that had returned until
11 today to Aracinovo?
12 A. As far as I know, there is no family that has returned --
13 Macedonian family that has returned to their homes.
14 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't hear the comment, interpreters.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that as far as he
16 knows, no one had returned to Aracinovo, and word "Aracinovo" was not put
17 in the transcript. I don't know whether it was added later.
18 Q. Now, I'd like to ask something else, Mr. M-056. As citizen of
19 Macedonia you are probably aware that the president of the state in
20 compliance with the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia, the supreme
21 commander of the armed forces, are you aware of this?
22 A. Yes, I know this.
23 Q. Are you also aware that the Armed Forces of the Republic of
24 Macedonia are composed of the army of the Republic of Macedonia and the
25 police forces or the interior ministry forces?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And maybe you are also aware but since -- having in mind the
3 position you had, you know that the police in times of war is entirely put
4 under the control of the army?
5 A. Yes, we were put under the command of the head of the General
6 Staff of the army of the Republic of Macedonia.
7 Q. You said that this situation in Macedonia was not entirely clear
8 because in the country, the state of war was not declared, while the
9 crisis situation in some areas was very intense. Do you know that at that
10 time -- do you agree that at that time the situation was not very defined
11 in the Republic of Macedonia?
12 A. Yes, we could say this, in fact. We had a war of low intensity or
13 a situation, a conflict with -- but the state of war was not declared in
15 Q. Thank you. Are you aware - this is something you said yesterday
16 and I will quote you, and now I will ask you whether you know that as of
17 spring 2001 the president of the country, as supreme commander, took the
18 decision related to the situations where the army and the police were
19 acting together?
20 A. Yes, I am aware of this.
21 Q. Since yesterday you said something already. I would like to ask
22 you whether it is correct that in such a situation of joint actions, the
23 command of the units participating in such actions was held by the army?
24 This was on page 2.104 of the transcript.
25 A. I'm sorry. Yes, in such situation, we were under the control of
1 the army.
2 Q. Now I'd like to ask to you look at the document which is under
3 number 1 in your binder.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is 1D196, 1D221 and the
5 English version is 1D2212.
6 Your Honours, before I make additional questions, I would like
7 first to ask that the documents which are displayed to the witness not to
8 be made public and having in mind the mark on the document, if I tender
9 them for evidence, I would like them to be accepted under seal.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. M-056, you can see that in the top left-hand corner there
13 is -- there is a mark and a number and the date. There is a memo of the
14 president of the Republic of Macedonia?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The document is also signed by the president of the Republic of
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Since we -- this document is dated with the month of March 2001,
20 if you look at this document, you would agree with my suggestion that as
21 of March the Republic of Macedonia had undertaken actions against the --
22 sabotage terrorist attacks?
23 A. Yes. When I said later, I meant later we met with their unit for
24 agreeing concerning certain activities.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I like to tender this exhibit as a
2 Defence exhibit.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D49, Your Honours.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like for the witness
6 to be shown the document which is in tab 4, 1D198, 1D2215, and the English
7 version 1D116.
8 Q. Mr. M-056, you can see here that this is a document of the
9 president of the Republic of Macedonia and that this document is signed by
10 the president of the Republic of Macedonia.
11 A. Yes, this is correct.
12 Q. If you look at the document, in the middle it is marked -- you can
13 see the word "decision." Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Under item 1 of this decision stipulates the joint action of the
16 units of the army and the minister of internal affairs unit in the region
17 that you spoke about yesterday with my learned colleague, the Prosecutor.
18 Therefore, in the region of the villages of Vaksince and Slupcane; is it
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As far as I can remember, you said that the police forces in that
22 operation were put under the command of the army forces; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, this is correct.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like this
25 document, 1D198, to tender as evidence.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Under seal.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D50, under seal, Your Honours.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] As I said, the previous one as
6 well, under seal. Okay. Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. M-056, would you agree with me that the supreme commander in
8 such a situation could give orders both in a written form and in verbal
9 form. Is this correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now I'd like to ask to you look at the document which is in tab 3,
12 1D197, 1D2213, and the English version 1D2214.
13 This document you can also recognise the stationery of the office
14 of the president of the Republic of Macedonia on the upper left-hand
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This document is named record from the meeting of the president of
18 the Republic of Macedonia with the head -- with the chief of the General
19 Staff of the army of Republic of Macedonia, Jovan Andrevski, on March
20 18th, 2001. Is this the content of the document?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I would like now to ask you to look at paragraph 2 of this
23 record. The third sentence saying: "In this respect, President
24 Trajkovski verbally ordered the head of the General Staff of the army of
25 Republic of Macedonia to undertake an urgent, efficient, and decisive
1 offensive operation and in cooperation with ministry of interior forces to
2 neutralise the terrorist groups in the region of Tetovo."
3 Does this document, Mr. M-056, confirm what you said before, that
4 president as supreme commander, could issue not only written but also
5 verbal orders to the Armed Forces of the Republic of Macedonia?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please, I would like
8 to tender this as evidence under seal.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Why should this be under seal?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The documents are marked as state
11 secret. We received these documents from the state authorities of
12 Macedonia, and they asked us only to use them in court and not make them
13 public. I thought this was the right way, since these are documents,
14 which are marked as state secrets and are of limited circulation and that
15 they should be under seal.
16 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... This document
17 isn't marked as a state secret.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I apologise, yes --
19 apologise, yes. Then this document should not be under seal. Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can --
24 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... find that --
25 or I'm told that in the original, the marking is state secret. The
1 translation is not. So we'll have it under seal, if that makes you happy.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. [In English] Thank you
3 very much, Your Honour.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It will be received as exhibit 1D51, under seal,
5 Your Honours.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask now to show
7 the document in tab 5. That is document 1D199, 1D2217, and English
8 version is 1D2218.
9 Q. Mr. M-056, you see again that this is a document coming from the
10 president of the Republic of Macedonia and that is signed by the president
11 of the republic; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Please look at item 1 of this decision. This decision says
16 that "I order to the Republic of Macedonia army to timely and accordingly
17 response to all fire coming from the terrorist positions each time the
18 security forces of the Republic of Macedonia are attacked and when their
19 lives are put in danger."
20 Paragraph 2 of this point says: "I underline that such a measure
21 of the Macedonian army includes also the cases when the attacks would put
22 in danger the forces of the Ministry of Interior."
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
25 MR. SAXON: I'm simply concerned. I apologise for the
1 interruption to my learned colleague.
2 I'm concerned there may be a difference between the English
3 translation of paragraph 1 of this decision and the original Macedonian
4 version, because on page 52 of the LiveNote at line 3 -- now it has been
5 corrected, because I originally heard "put in danger the security forces"
6 and now it does say "the forces of the ministry of the interior."
7 I apologise. It's been corrected now.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. I would like to ask you, Mr. M-056, whether that is your
10 understanding of the situation at that time, that practically not only
11 that in the joint operations the army was in command of the police units
12 but that also the army was obliged due to the decision of the president to
13 always return fire always when the police forces are attacked as well. Is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is correct.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like, Your Honours, to tender
17 this document in evidence.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D52, Your Honours.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.
21 I think that we are -- that I have finished my questions regarding these
22 documents that are labelled "state secret."
23 Q. Yesterday you spoke of that joint action that took place on the
24 territory of the Vaksince village and you said that you yourself
25 participated in the planning procedure for this action; is that correct?
1 A. The plan was already made in the General Staff and I was called
2 there to -- just to be briefed about it.
3 Q. And would it be correct if I were to repeat what you just said,
4 the complete plan in the operational strategy and the tasks were drafted
5 by the General Staff of the army of the Republic of Macedonia. Is that
7 A. Yes, it is correct.
8 Q. And you basic -- actually, your unit was subordinated in that
9 moment to the army commanders of the Republic of Macedonia; is that
11 A. Yes, it is correct.
12 Q. The minister of the interior, in such one situation, had no role
13 in the planning or in the execution of that operation; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is correct.
15 Q. Even if he would be present at the meeting that the execution of
16 that plan, he would have no authority to issue any orders or directions or
17 suggestions to the army generals; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But --
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe we should now
21 move to a private session.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 2168-2176 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
5 JUDGE PARKER: We must now adjourn for the second break and will
6 resume in half an hour, at five past.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
11 I would like to ask to go into private session once again, because
12 I will speak once more about the position that the witness held.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 2178-2185 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. M-056, you said that at one time you were the commander of
23 posebna; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That posebna unit existed for a long time in the forces of the
1 Ministry of Interior; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. This unit is in existence for a long time.
3 Q. And essentially the posebna unit had no permanent composition as
4 the special -- the Tiger special unit used to have; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. The posebna unit consists of regular police officers from
6 police stations who are replaced by others from time to time.
7 Q. And these regular police officers that were carrying out the
8 duties in the police stations on a daily basis were called only then when
9 the needs for the security of the public law and order would be put in
10 danger in such a way that the regular police would not be able to restore
11 the law and order; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I would ask you now to look at the document found in tab 14. That
14 is P75. Macedonian version is R042-4692, the English version is
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We still can't see the Macedonian
18 Q. You can see at the top the stationery of the Ministry of Interior,
19 the date, 26th of July, 2001; that is correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And in the middle you can see a decision to establish a special, a
22 posebna police unit of the police of the Ministry of Interior?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the English
24 translation is "a decision to establish a special unit." I would like to
25 inform you that we already came to an agreement with the CLSS that they
1 will, in line with the real meaning of this unit, be correcting the
2 documents that we have, so we will send you the corrected documents.
3 So now it is important with this witness to clarify exactly this
4 unit that is called posebna and because of the translation, which is a
5 correct one but might cause some confusions regarding the structure and
6 the competences of this unit.
7 Q. So, Mr. M-056, in paragraph 2 of this decision, you can see that
8 the posebna unit is established to protect the security of the Republic of
9 Macedonia under a circumstances of a complex security situation or when
10 the public law and order would be violated in a higher extent; while the
11 paragraph 3, first sentence say that the posebna unit is -- consists of
12 the members of the police. Is that in line with what you just explained
13 to us what posebna unit is?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And any change of the posebna unit which, as you said, is in
16 existence for quite a number of years, is also carried out by a decision
17 which repeats these basic tasks that posebna has; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. Please look at the last page of this document now. That is
20 R042-4695, that's the Macedonian version, and R042-4694-ET. And I would
21 like you -- to draw your attention to paragraph 15 of this decision.
22 Paragraph 15 stipulates with the entry into force of this
23 decision, the decision for the establishment of the posebna unit of the
24 police ceases to exist for carrying out certain tasks. SD. NO.
25 15-1749/1, dated 2nd of June, 1993.
1 Can you see that?
2 A. Yes, I can see that.
3 Q. So, in accordance with this paragraph, is it your understanding
4 that the posebna, as a unit within the Ministry of Interior, existed at
5 least since 1993?
6 A. Yes. Since then, but also since before that.
7 Q. Now that the witness is shown the document found in tab 15, which
8 is 1D205, 1D2283, and the English version is 1D2285.
9 Again, on the upper corner you see that this is a document of the
10 Ministry of the Interior; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in the middle of the page, it reads: "A decision for the
13 establishment of posebna police units for carrying out specific tasks."
14 Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Item 1 says: "A special posebna unit of the police, for carrying
17 out specific tasks (special posebna unit of the police) and PEP, with an
18 authorised commander, head of the sector of special posebna police units."
19 Item 3 of the decision says that the special unit consists of
20 members of the police, the posebna unit consists of members of the police.
21 Item 6 -- or, rather, paragraph 6 says that the commanding and
22 general composition of the posebna unit is provided by the MOI in Skopje,
23 in the department of the interior.
24 Is this what you actually said, that the posebna unit is part of
25 the same -- is in the same composition and as such existed since earlier,
1 and that the document that we previously saw is only amendment and some
2 changes in some elements of the same unit. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's it.
4 Q. As you said earlier, this unit was in existence from earlier, and
5 if we see now the preamble and paragraph 15 on the next page, we will see
6 that with this decision, the decision marked as SD/strictly confidential
7 from 1st of March, 1991 number 602/1, is no longer into force.
8 So as you said, this unit was in the existence ever since the
9 times of the Socialist Federative of Yugoslavia; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
12 tender this document as an exhibit, and upon receival of official
13 translation, we will change this -- we will replace this translation with
14 the official one.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D57, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Time has now run, I'm afraid, Ms. Residovic. We
18 must adjourn now.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE PARKER: We resume, I believe, on Monday in the afternoon at
22 The instructions will be given to the witness by the appropriate
23 people for the weekend.
24 We now adjourn.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of
2 June, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.