1 Monday, 18 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 If I could remind the witness of the affirmation he made which
8 still applies to his evidence.
9 Ms. Residovic.
10 WITNESS: WITNESS M-056 [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. M-056.
15 You surely remember that last Friday we ended that part of your
16 testimony by discussing the unit of the Ministry of Interior, which is
17 called posebna, special unit, and then I showed you some documents, which
18 speak about that unit. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to that the witness
21 is shown again the Exhibit P75, page 3, 042462, and the English page is
22 0424692-ET. And that document -- but before that, I apologise, Your
23 Honours, we would need to give the witness again the documents in the
24 court binder so the witness can follow my questions. Thank you.
25 Q. This document is in tab 14. And as you replied to my question
1 last Friday, all changes in this unit as well as in the other units are
2 therefore governed by a certain general act, a decision, a ruling, or a
3 rule book; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I would like to ask you to look at the last page of this document,
6 which is R0424695 in Macedonian, and in English it is R042-4694-ET. And
7 here, in the first paragraph, in middle of it you can see that it speaks
8 about a change in the amount of the salary that the members of this unit
9 receive. So if you see this word here, "posebna," special unit has the
10 right to an increased salary for 20 per cent, that is in the middle of the
11 first paragraph. Then practically this change is only harmonisation of
12 the salary for the members of the posebna special unit with the salaries
13 received at that time with the special unit Tigers. Is that the change
14 that you see written in this decision?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So if there would be anyone who would claim before this Court that
17 this document refers to the unit Lions, then such assertion would be
18 incorrect. Is that so?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask
22 now that this document under the number 1D205, which is a decision about
23 the establishment of the posebna unit is received into evidence as Defence
25 I apologise. It seems that was the last thing that we did on the
1 Friday. The document has already been given an exhibit number.
2 Q. You recall, Mr. M-056, that on the Friday we discussed and you
3 testified when asked by the Prosecutor that the police units in the joint
4 operations were under the command of the army. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in the tab 2.
7 Its number is 1D222, Macedonian 1D2373, while the English version is
9 This is one more document or one more decision issued by president
10 of the Republic of Macedonia, dated the 4th of July, 2001.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 4th of June, 2001.
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. The item 1 of the decision stipulates in the last paragraph, the
15 third paragraph, that the deputy chief of the national headquarters of the
16 army of the Republic of Macedonia, lieutenant-general, Pande Petrovski is
17 assigned as the commander of the operation and the commander of the 1st
18 Corps was Major-General Gjorgi Karakutovski is assigned as his deputy.
19 Could you agree with me that this decision again reaffirms your testimony
20 that in the operations that were organised jointly by the army and the
21 police, the command over the operations and over the units belonged to the
22 military commanders?
23 A. Yes, definitely.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would seek to
25 tender this document as a Defence exhibit.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D58, Your Honours.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. The Prosecutor showed you on Friday few video-clips. One of them
5 was a drill, an exercise of the police and the army units. Do you
6 remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the video-clip, you were able to see that that was the
9 time-period around the late Autumn because all the participants were
10 wearing warm clothes, if you remember the video recording, and obviously
11 their surroundings did not appear to be summertime, it, rather, resembled
12 late Autumn.
13 If I were to tell you that this exercise was an exercise at Penus
14 in November 2001, would you be able to agree with me that it was exactly
15 that exercise?
16 A. Yes, it is that exercise.
17 Q. You were also shown a video-clip while you recognised Goran
18 Mitevski and you stated that during that time he was a director of the
19 public security bureau, and you surely recall that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. My question is: Is it correct that the director of the public
22 security bureau is appointed by the government of the Macedonia?
23 A. Yes, the director is appointed by the government.
24 Q. And if someone would testify before this Tribunal that the
25 director of public security bureau is appointed by the minister, that
1 testimony would be incorrect. Is that so?
2 A. Yes, yes, it would be incorrect.
3 Q. Thank you. We would move now to a completely different area that
4 you discussed with my learned colleague the Prosecutor and that is the
5 issue of the Lions, do you remember that you talked about the rapid
6 deployment battalion, named the Lions?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were shown the document dated 6th of August, 2001.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: And I asked that the witness is shown again that
10 document, P275, and that document is located in your binder in tab 17.
11 Q. You remember that this document was shown to you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In this document, please focus your attention, this document is
14 actually an order to appoint the units of the Ministry of Internal Affairs
15 that will become part of the temporary joint unit for combat against
16 terrorism. That is the order that you have in front of you.
17 In the first paragraph of this order, the composition of the
18 temporary joint unit for combat against terrorism is established, and this
19 order establishes that this unit will composed of the police rapid
20 deployment or rapid intervention battalion as well as the unit for special
21 tasks of the ministry of internal affairs. Do you see that in this
22 paragraph 1?
23 A. Yes, I see it.
24 Q. This unit for special tasks is actually the Tigers unit; is that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the preamble to this order,
3 and in line 2 at the end, you see that this order was brought on the basis
4 of a decision of the government of the Republic of Macedonia to establish
5 a unit for special purposes, confidential number 98/1 of the 12th of June,
6 2001, and part 1, item 1, 2 of the decision by the president of the
7 Republic of Macedonia. Do you see that this is what is written in the
8 preamble and this is the grounds on which the Minister Boskoski issued the
9 order that you see in front of you?
10 A. Yes, I see it.
11 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document that is behind
12 tab 16, and that is P74, actually. Macedonian number R0424682, while the
13 English number starts with 042-4682-ET, first page, 01.
14 Would you please look at the upper left corner. This title here,
15 I should call it, where one can see that the Ministry of the Interior
16 under the number 16.1-4475/1 also dated on the 6th of August, 2001,
17 brought the decision that -- which is written in the middle of the page in
18 capital letters, and this is a decision to establish a rapid intervention
19 police battalion of the ministry of internal affairs. Do you see this,
20 that it is the 6th of August when the aforementioned decision was issued?
21 A. Yes, this is the date.
22 Q. In the preamble to this decision, you can also see at the end of
23 line 2 that this decision as well was issued on the basis of the decision
24 of the government of the Republic of Macedonia to establish a unit for
25 special purposes, confidential number 98/1, of 12th of July, 2001, and on
1 the basis of the decision of the president of the Republic of Macedonia to
2 establish a temporary unit for combat against terrorism of classification
3 A. Is that the grounds upon which the minister of the interior issued the
4 aforementioned decision?
5 A. Yes, that is the grounds.
6 Q. When you answered to the questions of the Prosecutor on Friday,
7 you stated that the Tigers had 120 members and you also explained that the
8 Tigers were not fully prepared for all conditions of combat against
9 terrorists, especially not for combat in mountainous areas. Do you
10 remember that you testified about this?
11 A. Yes, yes, I remember.
12 Q. Tell me, would it be correct if I were to stay that it was
13 precisely the conditions of the combat against terrorist groups were the
14 reasons why the government and the president of the state issued a
15 decision to establish an additional unit in order to be able to establish
16 the public law and order in the country?
17 A. Yes, this is correct.
18 Q. I would like to ask you now, we will come back to this decision
19 again, but I would -- I would like to ask you now to look at the document
20 in tab 18. That is 1D215, Macedonian 1D2359 --
21 THE INTERPRETER: 2329, interpreter's correction.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. While English 1D2331. This is a document of the government of the
24 Republic of Macedonia dated 13th of June, 2001, confidential number 98/1.
25 Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And this is the letter, the cover letter of the Secretary-General
3 of the government of the Republic of Macedonia which accompanies the
4 letter to the Ministry of Defence and, at the same time, you can see the
5 attachment at the bottom on the left-hand side that this decision was also
6 forwarded to the Ministry of Interior. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I would like to ask you now to turn the page, 1D3 -- 2330, and
9 English 1D2332. And as you can see, this is the text of the decision to
10 establish a special purposes unit. I would like to ask you now to look at
11 paragraph 6 of this decision where the government practically suggests the
12 establishment of this unit together with the army. In paragraph 6 it
13 says: "The order for the use of the special purposes unit will be issued
14 upon the recommendation or proposal of the coordinating body for crisis
15 management by the president of the republic."
16 You do agree with me that considering that the establishment is
17 proposed or the establishment of a unit together with the army is governed
18 here, that before such decision is made, a decision must be made by a
19 supreme commander of the army and that would be the president of the
20 Republic of Macedonia. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, this is correct.
22 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you to look at the document in tab
23 19. And that is 1D216, Macedonian, 1D2333, while the English version is
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Before, Your Honours, I continue asking questions
1 to the witness, I wish to just clarify. This document is something that
2 we found in the 65 ter list of the Prosecutor, but in the 65 ter list
3 there is only the first page of the document, which would be absolutely
4 inappropriate to use in the course of the cross-examination of the
5 witness, so we requested, therefore, a translation of the entire document,
6 and we also submitted for translation the decision that we received from
7 the competent bodies of Macedonia and therefore we will seek to tender
8 this as Defence exhibit after I ask several questions of this witness
9 about this decision.
10 Q. This decision consists of three pages. The Macedonian version
11 begin in 1D2333 and ends with 1D2335, while the English version begins
12 with 1D2336 an ends with 2337.
13 Again, I would like to ask you when you look at this first page to
14 confirm that this is document issued by the president of the Republic of
15 Macedonia, which is D number 07-54 of the 15th of June, 2001.
16 THE INTERPRETER: The number stands for confidential number,
17 interpreter's note.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: And let me just mention, Your Honours, considering
19 that this is a document that is of highly confidential nature that it is
20 not shown to the public.
21 Q. And can you confirm, Mr. M-056, that this document, if you look at
22 the last page of it, which is the Macedonian 1D2335, a decision issued by
23 the president of the Republic of Macedonia, Boris Trajkovski?
24 A. Yes, this is correct.
25 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the second page of this
1 document, 1D2334, and the English is 1D2337, and I will ask you to look
2 around the middle of this page, the paragraph 1.2 where it says: "From the
3 Ministry of the Interior."
4 Already on the first page you saw that this was a decision issued
5 by the president to establish a temporary units to combat terrorism of
6 Class A. And you saw that on the previous page; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the section that I did not show you, the president establishes
9 which are the army units which should become part of this unit, while
10 here, in item 1.2, it is established which are the units that the Ministry
11 of Interior needs to establish in order to make them a part of the
12 temporary joint unit.
13 In line 2, it says that a special tasks unit is established and
14 that it is incorporated into the special operations detachment. It also
15 stated here that the composition of this unit for special purposes should
16 be determined by the Ministry of the Interior. Is that what is written
17 here in the decision of the president?
18 A. Yes, this is what is written.
19 Q. And, secondly, as the decision orders, a police battalion should
20 be established from within the ranks of the Ministry of the Interior,
21 which will also become part of the unit to combat terrorism, while the
22 composition of the -- of that battalion will be determined by the Ministry
23 of the Interior. Is that what is written in this decision and what is
24 actually an obligation for the Ministry of the Interior as an
25 implementation of the decision of the president of the state?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Now I would like to ask you again to go back to the decision which
3 can be found in tab 16, and that is P74. And it has the Macedonian
4 version number R0424682 and the English page starts with 042-4682-ET, page
5 number 1.
6 Yesterday we were discussing how these units are being established
7 and I would like to ask you, is it correct that the unit that is to be
8 established by the president's decision, it is necessary for a decision to
9 be adopted for its establishment in order to define the composition of
10 this unit, the conditions for the fulfilment of the unit, et cetera. Is
11 this correct?
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. If you look at item number 3 on the decision for the establishment
14 of the police battalion issued by the president of the state under
15 paragraph 3, you can see that the minister is the one who decides on the
16 composition of this battalion, and it reads that the police battalion for
17 rapid intervention composes of members of the special unit, the unit
18 posebna, from the Ministry of the Interior. Then members of the reserve
19 and members from the reserve forces.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Honourable Judges, since the
21 interpretation that was omitted a bit earlier, item number 3 on the
22 second -- the beginning of the second line, the posebna unit was
23 interpreted as special unit, I think that after the clarification that
24 we're going to get from this testimony regarding the units from the MOI,
25 that these errors in the documents are going to be corrected later on.
1 Q. So as we read now under paragraph 3, Mr. M-056, with this
2 decision, the Ministry of Interior, in accordance with the decision by the
3 president of the state, determined the composition of the rapid
4 intervention battalion; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Please, can you look at the second page of this very same
7 decision. It is R044683, and in the English version 042-4682-ET-02. And
8 if you pay attention on item number 4, can you see that the minister
9 prescribes the manner in which these police battalion is to be fulfilled
10 for rapid intervention, and this is done in the following manner: On a
11 voluntary basis and by so action from the unit posebna from the Ministry
12 of the Interior.
13 Also, in paragraph 2, it reads that: "This composition will
14 originate the composition that comes from the reserve within the Ministry
15 of Interior will be employed with the minister of interior."
16 Can you see this?
17 A. Yes, I can see that.
18 Q. Bearing in mind that part of the policemen who are members of the
19 unit posebna are already employed with this decision also it is being
20 determined that one portion of the reserve that will become part of the
21 rapid intervention battalion will be hired, that is to say, employed at
22 the ministry. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. And if somebody would say before this court that the members of
25 this battalion have been employed or reached the employment directly with
1 the minister would not be correct because the decision clearly says that
2 they are going to be employed by the Ministry of Interior. Is that
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Thank you. After this decision that -- within which the minister
6 defined the general condition regarding the composition and the procedure
7 of the establishment, he already mentioned that it was necessary to adopt
8 by-laws for the systemization of the job position, the conditions and the
9 procedure for hiring people, and that is why I would like to ask you to
10 answer several questions pertaining to this procedure of establishment of
11 the aforementioned unit.
12 I would like to ask you now to look the document which can be
13 found in tab 26. This is 1D2321, the English version -- no, no, I'm
14 sorry. I was -- so 1D219, document in tab 26, the Macedonian version,
15 1D2353, and the English version 1D2355.
16 And if you would agree with me, the Ministry of Interior was
17 adopted the rules on amendments and additions to the rules on the
18 organisation and work of the Ministry of Interior in September 2001. This
19 is what can be read on this first page. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, can we please turn to the
22 second page. This is the second page of the document also in English,
23 1D2354. 2356 is in the English version.
24 Q. The rules on the organisation and the operation of the Ministry of
25 Interior, on the 5th of September, 2001, is changed in the following
1 manner. Within these rules the rapid intervention battalion is included,
2 and for the first time it receives the title Lions. Can you see that,
3 item number 5.1?
4 A. Yes, I can see that.
5 Q. So when the Lions have been established, the rapid intervention
6 battalion, the whole procedure for the establishment had to be completed
7 in order for this unit to start to operate; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Now I would like to ask you to look at the document under tab
10 number 20, 1D220, 1D2357 is the Macedonian page, and 1D2364 is the English
12 These are the rules on amendments and additions to the rules on
13 the systemization of workplaces of the Ministry of the Interior which had
14 to be in accordance with the changes to the rules on the organisation and
15 the operation of the ministry; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the folder, the third page,
18 and this is 1D2359 in the Macedonian version, and in the English version
19 this would be page 1D2366.
20 At the very top you can see item 5.1, rapid intervention
21 battalion-Lions. Therefore, in order for the Lions unit to be established
22 following the changes to the rules on their organisation and the
23 operation, the rules on the systemization of the work positions had to be
24 changed, also to establish the special rapid intervention battalion as
25 such, and determine all the job positions; that is to say, all the
1 positions that have to exist in this particular unit, and the conditions
2 for the hiring of these kind of people. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. And these rules actually define these conditions. Is this
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I will ask you now to look at the document in tab 21. This is the
8 Prosecutor's P82, Exhibit P82. The first page, The Macedonian R 042-4685
9 and the first English page R 042-4685-ET. These rules, I believe you
10 would agree with me, it was adopted in Skopje in October 2001 and it
11 represents the conditions and the procedure for the assignment, rights and
12 duties of the members of the rapid intervention battalion of the Ministry
13 of Interior. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. If you look at the second page of this document, also the second
16 page of this document in the English version. Under item number 2 you see
17 the title, conditions and procedure for assignment in the battalion, and
18 Articles 2, 3, and on the third page, Article 4, determine or stipulate
19 the procedure and the conditions for the appointment and assignment in the
20 battalion, the members, basically in the same manner as we could see that
21 this is determined for the special unit Tigers as well. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. And when all these documents have been adopted, then it was
25 possible to open the employment tender, to send people for training and to
1 establish the rapid intervention battalion. Do you agree with me that
2 prior to October 2001, the rapid intervention battalion, Lions, did not
3 exist nor it was possible for it to exist?
4 A. Yes, I fully agree with that.
5 Q. The decision by the minister of 6th of August, 2001 was just the
6 beginning of the establishment of this unit by which the conditions have
7 been laid down that are to be followed for the establishment of this unit;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. And if somebody, Mr. M-056, would claim that the Lions used to
11 exist during August, this would be simply untrue and impossible; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And if someone would claim that the Lions have been present in
15 Ljuboten on 12th of August, 2001, would this would be a completely untrue,
16 and it would be impossible because they were not established and did not
17 exist prior to October 2001. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I would like to
21 ask you, as our evidence, to tender the exhibits 1D215, this is the
22 decision by the government; 1D216, the decision by the president, one --
23 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... time,
24 Ms. Residovic, not all together. And if you could indicate the tab number
25 at the same time.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 First of all, I would kindly ask you to accept 1D215, the decision
3 by the government, which can be found in tab 18.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D59, Your Honours.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I would tender as an exhibit
7 1D216, the decision by the president of the Republic of Macedonia, in tab
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D60, Your Honours.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I would propose as an exhibit
12 of the Defence to accept 1D219. This is the rules for the changes and
13 amendments of the rules on the organisation of the work of the Ministry of
14 Interior, which can be found in tab 26.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D61, Your Honours.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I would seek to tender in
18 exhibit 1D220, this is the rules on changes and amendments to the rules on
19 systemization of work positions of the Ministry of Interior, which is in
20 tab 20.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D62, Your Honours.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. M-056, is it correct that back in 2003, following the
25 completion or the end of this crisis, a decision has been made to
1 reorganise the rapid intervention battalion, Lions, and an order has been
2 made because there was a need for the joint unit of the army and the
3 police to cease to exist. Is this correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. I would like to ask you to look at the document under tab 22.
6 1D221, 1D2371. This is in the English version, 2372. And the date, 3rd
7 of January, 2003.
8 You can see that this is an order for terminating of the validity
9 of the order on determining units of the Ministry of Interior which are
10 part of the composition of the temporary joint unit to combat against
11 terrorism. And under paragraph 1 at the very end, this order refers to
12 the document DT 16.1-4476/1, dated 6th of August, 2001, and if you recall,
13 this was the exhibit by the Prosecution shown to you yesterday.
14 Can you see that in this document?
15 A. Yes, I see it.
16 Q. You know that by this order the order was terminated by which the
17 joint unit was supposed to be established together with the army of the
18 Republic of Macedonia. Do you know this, bearing in mind the position
19 that you held at that time at the Ministry of Interior?
20 A. Yes, it is known to me.
21 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-056, that at the same time, there were
22 certain changes in the battalion for rapid intervention and that this
23 battalion continued to exist, however, under a different title and a
24 changed composition. Is this correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you please tell us what is the title of this particular unit
2 right now?
3 A. Fast response unit.
4 Q. Thank you very much.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would propose now
6 for this document 1D221, which is in tab 22 also to be accepted as an
7 exhibit by the Defence.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] As Exhibit 1D63, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Now before you move on, can I ask you about tab 17.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document, P275,
12 this is why I did not propose for this document to enter in evidence again
13 and this decision basically eliminate this decision from the 6th of
14 August, 2001.
15 JUDGE PARKER: So it is already Exhibit P275, is it?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it was accepted into evidence
17 on Friday.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC:
20 Q. Mr. M-056, as you can see, I have spent a lot of time asking
21 questions related to the composition and the conditions for the
22 establishment of these units, and your answer that you know certain
23 competences of the ministry, now I would like to ask you to answer several
24 questions related to certain competences of the Ministry of Interior.
25 Mr. M-056, please tell me, is it correct that the Ministry of
1 Interior is composed of two rather clear structures, or two parts, the
2 part in charge of public security, and the second part in charge of state
3 security issues. Is this correct?
4 A. Yes, that is the composition of the MOI.
5 Q. Is it correct that each of these parts of the Ministry of the
6 Interior is headed by a director? So a director of the bureau of public
7 security and a director for state security; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is correct.
9 Q. And as you stated a while ago, that the director for public
10 security is appointed by the government of the Republic of Macedonia. It
11 is also the government of the Republic of Macedonia who appoints the
12 director for state security; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the parliament of Macedonia also has a special committee that
15 performs the control over the work of the state security; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it correct that the competences, the duties and
18 responsibilities of the individual bodies, divisions, administrations,
19 departments, or sections are governed by the rule book on organisation and
20 operation of the Ministry of Interior?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will show the
23 witness now the document which is essentially the rule book on
24 organisation, operation of the Ministry of Interior, but before that, I
25 wish to say that the Prosecutor has tendered and it was received as P-- as
1 Exhibit P33, the rule book on organisation, operation of the Ministry of
2 Interior. However, the Prosecutor had his own reasons for tendering only
3 one part after that rule book of four pages, while this rule book contains
4 eight pages. The Defence has submitted the entire rule book for
5 translation, and considering that translation hasn't been completed yet,
6 we have a working translation now of two articles only that I wish to
7 discuss now with this witness and when the entire rule book is translated
8 we will seek to tender the entire rule book as a Defence exhibit.
9 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ...
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 23.
12 That is 1D217, 1D2338, Macedonian version, and 1D2398, English version.
13 You do agree with me, Mr. M-056, that actually this rule book
14 establishes the organisation or structure, the operation and the
15 competences of individual bodies and units but also its link towards the
16 directors for public security and for state security as well as towards
17 the minister?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This rule book on organisation and operation of the Ministry of
20 the Interior was adopted in January 2001.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to ask know that
22 the witness is shown P33, Prosecution Exhibit. We do not have this
23 document within our court binder. And I would like to ask to have the
24 last page of this document displayed.
25 Q. You can see now that this document was adopted on the 21st of
1 June --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter's correction, 26th of
3 January, 2001.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And that it was assigned by the then Minister of the Interior
6 Dokta Dimovska?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you can also see in Article 28 that a component of this
9 document is also the organisational chart of the Ministry of the Interior;
10 is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is correct.
12 Q. Thank you very much. We could now move away from this document.
13 It is important for what I wanted to show you in the document that you
14 have in front of you in tab 23, so I would like to ask now to go back to
15 1D217 and to display now the page 1D2339, while the English page is
17 Mr. M-056, I would like to ask you to look together the Article 21
18 of this rule book where it is stated that certain organisational forms of
19 the ministry, that individual organisational forms of the ministry and
20 bureau for public security as a body within the ministry, that --
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, I will
22 read exactly as it is written. I will not interpret it.
23 Q. So it reads here: "The individual organisational forms of the
24 ministry and the public safety bureau as a body within the ministry are
25 managed by heads whose title and working place are determined by the book
1 of rules on systemization of the working places within the Ministry of
2 Interior Affairs and depending on the type of the organisational scope."
3 It reads in paragraph 2: "The heads of the department for police
4 and the department for crime police and the heads of the analytics and
5 investigations sector, the anti-terrorism sector, the helicopter unit, the
6 records department, the sector for fire protection, the sector for defence
7 preparations are functionally connected with the head of the public safety
8 bureau and are responsible immediately before the head for the operation
9 and the tasks in their area."
10 Is this the paragraph that establishes the actual line of command
11 responsibility and control within the public security bureau?
12 A. Yes, it is correct.
13 Q. The paragraph 3 says: "The commander of the special tasks unit,
14 Tiger, and the heads of the internal control department, the department
15 for international cooperation and European integration, the operative
16 techniques sector, the finance sector as well as other joint works, the
17 sector for legal and staff matters, the telecommunications sector,
18 encryption protection and IT and the sector for administrative advisor
19 works with functionally connected with the minister and are responsible
20 for its work and for the tasks in their area."
21 This rule book then establishes the parts of the ministry which
22 are connected to the minister?
23 A. Yes, it is correct.
24 Q. The paragraph 3 of this document states that the commander of the
25 special tasks unit, Tiger, and the heads of the department for internal
1 control, the department for international cooperation and European
2 integration, the operative techniques sector, the finance and other joint
3 works sector, then the sector for legal and staff matters, the
4 telecommunication sector, the encryption protection and IT and the sector
5 for administrative supervisory works are operation connected also with the
6 head of the public safety bureau and the head of the safety and
7 counter-intelligence department.
8 So when it comes to the Tigers unit, it was linked also to the
9 director for public security; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is correct.
11 Q. Article 22 of this rule book that is part of your binder
12 stipulates that the heads of the organisational forms --
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I'm not really sure
15 Q. Heads of the organisational forms within the other organisational
16 forms are directly responsible before the heads of those organisational
17 forms. The employees, executors are responsibility before their immediate
18 head and the head of the organisational form to which they belong, for the
19 correct execution of their works and tasks.
20 Is this the way in which the competence and the responsibility in
21 the Ministry of Interior was established in accordance to the rule book of
22 January 2001.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And as we saw a few moments ago from the -- from the Prosecutor's
25 Exhibit P33, a component was also a chart, so I would like to you look at
1 1D2342 of the Macedonian version, and the English version is 1D2401. So
2 this one is 1D217 and the number of pages are 1D -- 1D4-- I apologise,
3 1D2342, the Macedonian version, and 1D2401, the English version.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while tendering into
5 exhibit this document, we have -- we have objected the chart proposed by
6 the Prosecution and the Prosecution has withdrawn that chart and now the
7 chart you have before you is a component of the rule book which we will
8 tender into exhibit after it has been translated fully and it will replace
9 our exhibit which was tendered today and this demonstrates the way in
10 which -- demonstrates the links within the interior ministry itself.
11 Q. Now, Mr. M-056, I would like to ask you to look at this chart and
12 to see only few things, to go through a few things in this central part in
13 this top table. It reads the bureau of the public safety bureau and there
14 are all these organs and sectors which are responsible for the public
15 safety as it has -- as it is prescribed by the rule book. Is this
17 A. Yes, it is correct.
18 Q. And here we can see that one part is composed by the crime police
19 which is headed by the head for crime police and on the right hand, we
20 have the department for police. Is this correct? Which is also headed by
21 a head of the department for police which later on becomes an
22 under-secretary for police. Is this correct?
23 A. Yes, this is correct.
24 Q. And this sector or department for police on the bottom it reads
25 sector for posebna units. Would you agree with me that in January 2001
1 the only posebna unit was -- on which you have testified today. Is this
3 A. Yes, this is correct.
4 Q. And from what we read in Article 21 from the rule book, on the
5 right-hand side, we can see that on the very top we can see the special
6 tasks unit, Tiger, which with this bold line is connected to the Ministry
7 of Interior Affairs, and, at the same time, it is connected with public
8 safety director, and this is what is contained in the Article 21 of the
9 rule book. Is this correct?
10 A. Yes, it is correct.
11 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-056, that all these changes to the rule book
12 were also accompanied by a modified charts which have shown in which way
13 the organisation within the ministry have been modified and the relations
14 among the different sectors have changed. Is this correct?
15 A. Yes, this is correct.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe it is time
17 now? No, I apologise. It is not time. I'm sorry. I was thinking of the
18 way as we are working in the morning usually.
19 Now I would like to tender this document in exhibit as a Defence
20 exhibit. And when the -- when the Defence will receive the whole
21 translation we'll put on this number the whole document with a whole
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, I didn't get the number.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Is it practical for it to be tendered now or should
25 we await the full translation.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, we can only note it now
2 and since we will be speaking about this document with other Prosecutor's
3 witnesses, until then we might receive the translation. Then we could
4 tender it as a whole.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Would you like it to be marked for identification
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be now marked for identification.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] As Exhibit 1D64, marked for
10 identification, Your Honours.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Now I'd like to ask you, Mr. M-056, to look at the document in tab
13 24. This is document 1D218, the Macedonian version is 1D2347, and the
14 English version is 1D2403.
15 This is a rule book on corrections and additions to the book of
16 rules of organisation and work of the Ministry of Interior Affairs, which
17 was adopted in Skopje in June 2001. If you look at page 1D of 2408 and
18 one -- of Macedonian version and 1D of 2404, this book of rules in June 15
19 2001, was signed by the minister of interior affairs, at that time,
20 Mr. Ljube Boskoski. Is this correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And as can you see in Article 2 of this rule book, a new sector
23 was established for operative reconnaissance, with a few subdepartments
24 which will be existing in the framework of the sector. Is it what this
25 Article 2 is saying?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now I'd like to ask you to look at the following page, 1D2409, and
3 the English page is 1D2405. These changes are -- of the rule book, it's
4 accompanied by a chart containing all the changes that have occurred in
5 the organisation and work of the ministry. Can you see that this sector
6 now is included in the chart before you?
7 This is on the right-hand bottom, which is connected to the
8 minister, so on the bottom this chart, a sector for operative
9 reconnaissance was added. Is this correct?
10 A. Yes, this is correct.
11 Q. On the top of this chart, which is connected to the minister we
12 still have the Tiger special tasks unit. Is this correct?
13 A. Yes, this is correct.
14 Q. Therefore, in June, in the department for police which can you see
15 within the public safety bureau on the bottom where it writes sector for
16 posebna units, there are no changes, nor any new unit was established. Is
17 this correct?
18 A. Yes, it is correct.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like this
20 document, 1D218, books of rules for corrections and additions to the book
21 of rules of organisation of the work of Minister of Interior affairs, to
22 tender as exhibit.
23 JUDGE PARKER: The document at tab 24 will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 1D65, Your Honours.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Now, Mr. M-056, I would like to ask to you look at the document in
2 tab 25. This is document 1D213, the Macedonian version, 1D2321, and the
3 English version is 1D2407.
4 Before I ask you questions related to this rule book, could you --
5 do you recall that on Friday we spoke about the transmission of the
6 competences from the minister to the head of police concerning the special
7 unit Tigers, the under-secretary of police. Is this correct?
8 A. Yes, it is correct.
9 Q. This was in accordance with a request from -- of a commander of
10 special tasks unit, Goran Zdravkovski in July 2001?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now I would like to ask you to look at this book of rules on
13 changes of the organisation of the work of the Ministry of Interior
14 affairs from August 2001 and to look at the page 1D2322, and the English
15 version 1D2408.
16 In Article 1 of book of rules on changes of the book of rules of
17 organisation and work of the Ministry of Interior affairs, can you see in
18 line 3 from the bottom, that -- that item 1 is changed from Article 7, and
19 it is taken to the department for police. In Article 4 it is put under
20 Article 6. Does this mean that this is a definite separation from the
21 Tiger unit from the competence of the minister and putting this special
22 unit in the -- under the -- under the heading of the -- of all of police
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now I'd like to ask you, since these changes as well should be
1 accompanied by a chart showing in which way the changes have occurred to
2 look at 1D2323 of the Macedonian version, and 1D2409, which represents the
3 chart of the -- work of the organisation of the interior ministry in the
4 public safety, and we will pay special attention to those organs which are
5 connected to the minister, is it correct that here on the top, we do not
6 see the special unit Tigers?
7 A. Yes, this is correct. They are not there anymore.
8 Q. If we look at this -- this big rectangle, do you see now that in
9 addition to the posebna unit, now we have an addition of the special tasks
10 unit, Tiger?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In this way, the Tiger has stopped to be in direct connection and
13 under the immediate competence of the minister as it was with the case
14 with the previous book of rules?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. And if someone would say that in August while this is a chart from
17 August 2001, when the changes were adopted to the book of rules and as it
18 can be seen this happened in August 21, 2001. So if someone would say
19 that at that time the Lions unit were in the structure of the police
20 forces, this would not be correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. So, therefore, both these book of rules and the accompanying chart
23 clearly show that the Lions did not exist on this August 21st, 2001, but
24 they were established, as you said, on October 2001?
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe before we break, I would
2 like to tender this document, 1D213 an exhibit.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] As Exhibit 1D66, Your Honours.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed the
6 cross-examination of this witness.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
8 We must have the break now and resume at 20 minutes past.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, only two things.
13 The document, the decision of the president from June 4th, 2001, which was
14 in tab number 2, was accepted as exhibit 1D58. Since the high level of
15 confidentiality of this document, I would like to tender it under seal.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. It will be under seal.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, secondly, for the sake of the
18 transcript, in June -- June 15th, when the witness was displayed the
19 document (redacted)
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, I'm sorry, I did not get the
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.
24 Therefore, on Friday, while the witness was displayed the
25 (redacted) on page of the transcript
1 2.177, from 17th to 25 lines, and page -- page 2178, lines 1 to 6 and
2 lines 12 to 16 the word "posebna" was used. This word should not appear
3 in the transcript because the word "posebna" was not said and it is -- it
4 cannot be found in the document which was displayed. We were speaking
5 about the special unit Tigers.
6 Since, after the witness -- the testifying of this witness we will
7 have a clear situation and that we will not have any -- such mistakes in
8 the transcript, I thought would be good to -- for the record to point out
9 such a situation.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we must wait until the record is corrected,
12 from the Chamber's point of view.
13 Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may we move into private session for one
15 moment, please.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
17 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 Yes, Mr. Apostolski.
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, dear witness M-056. My name is
15 Antonio Apostolski and together with my colleague Jasmina Zivkovic, we
16 represent Mr. Johan Tarculovski.
17 Today I will ask you some questions which I think you can answer
18 to and all with the purpose of giving a right image of the factual
20 To my learned colleague of the Prosecution, you said that with
21 your unit you were deployed in Vaksince. Is this correct?
22 A. Yes, we were before Vaksince and -- at the beginning of the
23 Vaksince village from the Lojane village site.
24 Q. The objective of your deployment was to arrest terrorist groups.
25 Is this correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. These were members of the terrorist group the NLA. Is this
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it correct that you have participated to other actions for --
6 to neutralise and to destroy the terrorist groups of the NLA?
7 A. Yes, certainly.
8 Q. Is it correct that the tactics of the terrorist groups of the NLA
9 was after the completion of terrorist acts to retrieve in villages
10 inhabited by civilian Albanian population?
11 A. Yes, I have personally seen the way they throw their uniforms at
12 the -- as civilians they enter their houses.
13 Q. They were doing that in order to avoid arrest and to avoid
14 criminal responsibility. Is this correct?
15 A. Yes, this is correct. And they knew that we would not use any
16 forceful actions against civilian population.
17 Q. Was this the reason why Macedonian security forces appealed to the
18 civilian population of Vaksince to leave the village?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said you had participated to several actions against the NLA
21 terrorist groups. Did -- during such actions you had close encounters
22 with NLA terrorist members?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you see what kind of light infantry weapons they used?
25 A. They had basically Kalashnikovs from automatic rifles but they had
1 also some more sophisticated weapons made by -- from American and German
3 Q. Is it correct that the NLA members mostly used automatic rifles,
4 type Kalashnikov, Chinese production?
5 A. Yes, definitely. Such Kalashnikov -- penetrating flakjacket.
6 Q. Is it correct that it originated from Albanian Kosovo? I refer
7 here to the Kalashnikovs produced in China.
8 A. Yes, that weapon mostly came from Albanian Kosovo.
9 Q. Are you aware that with such weapon -- this was the weapons used
10 by the Albanian army from the communist region from the time of Enver
12 A. Yes, this is correct.
13 Q. Do you know that in 1996 there were troubles in Albania when
14 the -- the military warehouses were robbed?
15 A. Yes, I know this very well. This was also in the media, and the
16 media mentioned very large number of weapons that were stolen.
17 Q. Could you see how the NLA terrorist group members were dressed?
18 A. They had different kind of uniforms. They had camouflage uniforms
19 and black uniforms. The camouflage uniforms originated from the -- they
20 were like the ex-Yugoslav uniforms, ex-army-- Yugoslav army uniforms.
21 Some were of German origin and some were of an American origin.
22 Q. Is it correct -- did the NLA members use a black -- a black
23 clothes during the actions?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours on page 36, line 1
1 of the transcript it reads "Albanian Kosovo," and the question should read
2 "from Albania and Kosovo."
3 Q. To -- to a question asked from my learned colleague the
4 Prosecutor, you said that when each party would come to power the high
5 officials would employ as body-guards members of party security. Is this
7 A. Yes, until now everyone has practiced this. After being employed
8 in party security, they would be afterwards employed in the interior
10 Q. In that way on 2001 VMRO-DPMNE was in power and at that time the
11 body-guards of high officials were members of party security teams of
12 VMRO-DPMNE who previously were employed in PSOLO. This is a security
13 unit. Is this correct?
14 A. Maybe. I'm not sure.
15 Q. In 2002, following the elections that took place on the 15th of
16 September, the Social Democratic Alliance came to power with an
17 abbreviation SDSM. Is this correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. They also did not keep the body-guards from the previous
20 government for their own officials. Is this correct?
21 A. Absolutely, yes.
22 Q. Is it correct that as body-guards, people have taken people from
23 the political party security from SDSM?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. Is it correct that they have been employed in the sector for
1 security of individuals and premises within the MOI, the so-called PSOLO?
2 A. I believe that some of them have been directly hired as civilians
3 and some of them came from other police stations.
4 Q. Was this just a formal condition in order for them to enjoy their
5 rights from employment, such as salary, health care and social insurance?
6 A. No, I don't think so. They were employed in order to provide
7 security for their -- for their superiors, as it was the case earlier.
8 Q. To my learned colleague from the Prosecution you told that the
9 Macedonian population from the western part of Macedonia was displaced.
10 Is it correct that the reason for this displacement was the pressure
11 coming from the terrorist groups of NLA?
12 A. Yes, certainly.
13 Q. Is it correct that there have been Macedonian civilians who have
14 been kidnapped in this particular part of Macedonia?
15 A. Yes, there have been kidnapping and molestation of civilians.
16 Q. Is it correct that people have been also tortured and civilians
17 who were raped, members of the Macedonian ethnic group?
18 A. Yes, that is correct. And also there are certain people who have
19 been kidnapped and their destiny is not yet known.
20 Q. Is it correct that houses have been set on fire of Macedonian
21 population that has been displaced by the terrorist NLA groups in order
22 for these people not to come back in their own houses?
23 A. Yes. This was the tactic in order to burn down all the Macedonian
24 houses in order for people not to come back.
25 Q. Is it correct that there are still displaced people from the
1 ethnic Macedonian majority who still live in shelters and have not
2 returned to their homes, because they're afraid about their security?
3 A. Yes. There's still internally displaced Macedonians who are not
4 able to go back to their homes.
5 Q. Thank you. With respect to Vaksince, is this the village in the
6 vicinity of the city of Kumanovo?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you recall maybe that Kumanovo back in 2001 had certain
9 problems with supply of water?
10 A. Yes. The terrorists discontinued water supply because the water
11 came from the lake of Lipkovo.
12 Q. Thank you. In the beginning of my cross-examination, you told me
13 that following the activities, the terrorist groups used to put on
14 civilian clothes. Was it normal for men, civilians, to conduct paraffin
15 tests in order to establish whether some of them fired a weapon or not?
16 A. Yes. This is quite a normal regular police procedure.
17 Q. Is it correct that the people who had a positive paraffin test
18 were being detained?
19 A. Yes, as far as I'm informed.
20 Q. Is it correct that people with negative paraffin tests were
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are you aware about any other method that was applied or used in
24 the Republic of Macedonia in order to establish alleged use of fire-arms
25 besides the paraffin test?
1 A. I have never worked in the forensics department. However, I
2 believe there is no other method.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any
5 more questions.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.
7 Mr. Saxon.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
9 MR. SAXON:
10 Q. Witness M-056, a few minutes ago my colleague asked you about the
11 practice of each time a new political party comes to power, such as in
12 2001 Macedonia, then that party would bring their so-called security staff
13 which would be employed in the Ministry of the Interior. And I'd like to
14 explore that with you for a moment, please.
15 Was this practice done to ensure that those persons employed as
16 body-guards in the Ministry of Interior would be loyal to the minister?
17 A. No. Always body-guards have been brought there who, amongst
18 other, they were always with the same people, each in opposition, because
19 you cannot just leave the people who are working for the previous
20 political party, and that is quite a normal procedure, as far as I'm
21 informed, present in many other countries around the world.
22 Q. What you mean by, "You cannot just leave the people who are
23 working for the previous political party?" What do you mean by that?
24 A. We have this rule that the body-guard following the four years,
25 cannot be as careful as he was earlier, because their jobs become routine
1 and that is why they are being replaced.
2 Q. I see. So the body-guards from the party leaving power are
3 replaced by persons affiliated with the party coming into power, who are
4 believed will be more careful. Is that your evidence?
5 A. Not the entire security forces, some of them.
6 Q. Okay. You told my colleague a short time ago that we, the
7 security forces, would not use any forceful actions against the civilian
8 population. Suppose members of the security forces thought that certain
9 civilians had something behind them. That was the term that you used with
10 us last week. Then, in 2001, might security forces sometimes have used
11 forces against such persons?
12 A. You know what? Quite often we have been attacked from windows
13 from houses, people, civilians used to live there, people without
14 uniforms, and whenever we dealt with civilians we would check their
15 personal identity, relations, et cetera.
16 Q. Well, thank you for that information, but you didn't answer my
17 question. I'll repeat my question. Here it is again. What would happen
18 in 2001 if members of the security forces thought that the so-called
19 civilians "had something behind them"? Then might force have been used
20 against these persons? You can just answer yes or no.
21 A. Only if they are armed and if they resist arrest. Only then force
22 can be used or so -- people if they are using fire-arms.
23 Q. All right. So if someone did not -- was not armed and was not
24 resisting arrest, force, physical force, should not have been used against
25 that person in 2001, right?
1 A. Yes, this is generally so.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, can we move into private session for a
3 moment, please.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
5 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 MR. SAXON:
13 Q. Tab 16, which was Prosecution Exhibit P74, if you take a look at
14 the Macedonian version -- actually, yeah, the Macedonian version. This is
15 a document about the decision to establish a rapid intervention police
16 battalion, the Ministry of Internal Affairs. The date up at the top is
17 the 6th of August, 2001. And I'd like to look again with you at the
18 preamble, please. Because the preamble says that based on Article 5, et
19 cetera, et cetera, of the law on the organisation and work of state
20 administration agencies, item 2 of the decision of the government of the
21 Republic of Macedonia, to establish a unit for special purposes and part
22 one, item 1.2 of the decision of the president of the Republic of
23 Macedonia, to establish a temporary unit for combat against terrorism, et
24 cetera, the minister of internal affairs brought the following decision.
25 So would it be fair to say, Mr. M-056, that by issuing this
1 decision, Minister Boskoski was effectively following his chain of
3 A. I don't understand the question.
4 Q. Well, it says here that the minister of interior of internal
5 affairs was bringing this decision pursuant to several laws and a decision
6 of the government of the Republic of Macedonia and a decision of the
7 president of the Republic of Macedonia.
8 So can we agree that Mr. Boskoski was doing his duty to follow the
9 instructions of persons or institutions that governed him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. I need to ask you something. During her
12 cross-examination, my colleague showed you a number of books of rules and
13 amendments to rules of the Ministry of Interior. Do you recall that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Rules on the organisation of the ministry, et cetera, such as
16 Exhibit 1D65. Why did the Ministry of Interior have so many rules?
17 A. For every single issue we have our rule books, for all the changes
18 as well.
19 Q. I see. During the crisis time in 2000 -- of 2001, were the rules
20 in the Ministry of Interior always followed to the letter?
21 A. Yes, as far as I am informed.
22 Q. Okay. Can you turn please to tab 20 in that binder. This
23 document became Exhibit 1D62. It's dated the 5th of September, 2001. And
24 it deals with amendments to the rules on the organisation of the work of
25 the Ministry of the Interior.
1 Do you recall telling my colleague, Ms. Residovic, that it would
2 have been impossible -- let me step back for a minute. That the
3 procedures outlined in these rules had to be completed before the Lions
4 unit could operate. Do you recall that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. So would it have been impossible for these Lions units to have
7 existed or operated before these official changes to the rules in
8 September of 2001?
9 A. Yes, and not before that.
10 Q. Can you tell us please --
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I don't want to do the wrong
12 thing. Can you tell me whether we are in public or private session?
13 JUDGE PARKER: Public.
14 MR. SAXON: Can we go into private session, please?
15 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 2236-2258 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 I was saying that that now concludes the questions that are to be
6 asked of you. As a consequence, you are now, of course, free to return to
7 your home and your ordinary occupations. You will be shown out by the
8 court officer, and we would thank you for your attendance in The Hague.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE PARKER: There's a question whether it would be profitable
12 to deal with any issues that are of concern at this point or whether we
13 move straight to the next witness.
14 Is there any pressing matter that any counsel wishes to raise?
15 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, there is one matter. Is it not a
16 pressing one. It relates to the three Prosecution application for
17 withdrawal of witnesses. What we would be ready to do with the leave of
18 the Chamber would be to answer perhaps after this witness if my colleague
19 wants to starts with Dr. Jakovski. We could do that at any time tomorrow
20 or Wednesday at your convenience. And we will try to do all three
21 applications at once, if that's convenient.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I'm grateful for that, because that is the matter
23 which the Chamber thought was most pressing.
24 MR. METTRAUX: And we have to formally seek an extension of time,
25 Your Honour, because of the fact that we are late in relation to the first
1 application. We've been moved forward by the course of the evidence and
2 we'll formally seek leave tomorrow when we address the Court on those
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Could the chamber also mention that
5 regrettably we find we are now unable to sit past 6.00 on Wednesday.
6 Another matter affecting other Judges compels us to be available at that
7 time. We would expect therefore we will have two sessions from 2.15 on
8 Wednesday, stretching each one to the patience and limits, the capacity of
9 the technical people. We should be able to sit for an hour and 35 minutes
10 or a little bit more in each session, but that will bring us to
11 approximately 6.00. We will then adjourn. By that means we will
12 considerably limit the time that we would lose to only half an hour.
13 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, perhaps while I'm on my feet, I would
14 just indicate to Your Honours that there is a number of procedural matter
15 which we would like to address prior to Mr. Hutsch starting his evidence
16 on Wednesday or Thursday, whenever that will be.
17 JUDGE PARKER: If that should arise, yes.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, doctor.
20 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation which
22 is on the card given to you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, please sit down.
1 WITNESS: ZLATKO JAKOVSKI
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike has some questions for you.
4 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.
5 Examination by Ms. Motoike:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Jakovski. Sir, is your name Dr. Zlatko
8 A. Zlatko Jakovski.
9 Q. And could you tell us, please, briefly what is your educational
11 A. In 1997, I graduated from the faculty of medicine, and the title I
12 earned was doctor of medical sciences. In 2001, I have completed by
13 specialisation in forensic medicine, and the title I earned was a
14 specialist in forensic medicine.
15 Since 1999 I'm a junior assistant at the medical faculty in
17 Since 2002, I earned the title of an M.Sc. in medical sciences in
18 the area of forensic ballistics.
19 From 2003, I'm a senior assistant at the faculty of medicine in
21 Q. Thank you. And are you a medical doctor by profession?
22 A. Yes, I am a medical doctor by profession.
23 Q. And as a medical doctor, do you also have a specialisation in
24 forensic medicine?
25 A. Yes, I'm a specialist in forensic medicine since 2001.
1 Q. And with that specialisation, do you perform autopsies at the
2 faculty of medicine in Skopje?
3 A. Yes, I perform autopsies at the faculty of medicine in Skopje,
4 about 70 to 90 autopsies per year. The total of autopsies I have
5 performed or participated in is about thousand.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the total number of
8 MS. MOTOIKE:
9 Q. And have all those been performed at the faculty of medicine in
11 A. Some of them at the faculty of medicine in Skopje while some were
12 in the medical centres across Macedonia because our institute covers also
13 larger part of the territory of Macedonia.
14 Q. And as part of conducting an autopsy, do you also -- as doctor in
15 forensic medicine, do you also -- or are you called upon to determine the
16 cause of death?
17 A. Yes. One of the tasks of the autopsy is to establish the cause of
19 Q. And as part of the autopsy and establishing the cause of death,
20 are you also called upon to determine the nature and type of injuries that
21 may be found on a particular body that you autopsy?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And when you perform an autopsy specifically with respect to your
24 position at the faculty of medicine in Skopje, where does the request for
25 an autopsy come from?
1 A. According -- pursuant to the criminal court of the Republic of
2 Macedonia, an autopsy can be requested by an investigating judge or
3 pursuant to the law on health care of the Republic of Macedonia, the
4 medical institution where the patient has died.
5 Q. When you conduct an autopsy, do you also prepare a written report
6 with respect to your findings?
7 A. Yes. On any autopsy, there is a section protocol or autopsy
8 report performed.
9 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, with respect to this witness because
10 of the nature of exhibits that I will seek to tender, we have prepared
11 binders for the Court. If we could distribute those now, please, with the
12 assistance the usher.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 MS. MOTOIKE: If we please --
15 Q. Witness, if could you refer to tab 1 of the binder that's in front
16 of you. It is 65 ter 13.9.
17 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honours, this particular report has already
18 been admitted as P00049. I refer to the 65 ter number for purposes of
19 e-court. Thank you.
20 Q. Doctor, could you please look at the documents that are displayed
21 in front of you. Do you recognise the protocol -- let me just start at
22 the top here in the left corner. It says "Institute for Forensic Medicine
23 and Criminology at the medical faculty, Skopje," and it's also dated 14
24 August 2001 in the upper left-hand corner. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And in the middle it is in bold, it says "section protocol." Do
2 you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then at the beginning of a that paragraph it says: "About a
5 forensic expertise carried out on the corpse of the deceased," and it
6 says "Atulla Qaili, at the age of around 35 to 40 years with residence at
7 village Ljuboten."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. MOTOIKE: If we can turn to the last page of this document,
11 which is page 9 in the English, page 12 of the Macedonian. Thank you.
12 Q. And, witness, you can also refer to the hard copies that are in
13 front of you if it is easier. If I could direct your attention to the
14 bottom of this page, there is a couple of signatures. It says Professor
15 Dr. Aleksa Duma and then below that it says teaching assistant Dr. Zlatko
16 Jakovski. Is that you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you recognise this particular protocol?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And this is a protocol for an autopsy that you yourself conducted?
21 A. Yes, together with the Professor Aleksa Duma on the body of the
22 deceased Atulla Qaili.
23 Q. And before we discuss this protocol, let me ask you first, do you
24 recall who requested this particular autopsy of Atulla Qaili?
25 A. This was on the request of the general city hospital of Skopje.
1 Q. Answer when you receive a request, for instance in this case from
2 the city hospital of Skopje, would you get paperwork with respect to that?
3 A. From the city General Hospital in Skopje, we received the mortuary
4 note where the request for autopsy was written.
5 Q. If I could draw your attention, witness, to tab 2 of today's
7 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we could please display on e-court what is
8 already P 0046. It is actually 65 ter 10.54, and this particular document
9 is located at the Macedonian translation in e-court.
10 I'm sorry. Is there a -- there should be a document that only
11 displays the upper half of this page. That is located at the Macedonian
12 translation for 65 ter 10.54. Could we display that, please. Thank you.
13 Q. And, doctor, do you see the Macedonian document that is before
14 you, and in the --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At the top it says, "To the pathology anatomy institute, Skopje,"
17 and in the middle there it says "autopsy needed" and then in bold it says
18 "death certificate" and indicates clinic surgery general city hospital,
19 Skopje. And it says name and last name, Abdula Cajani do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does this piece of paper look familiar to you?
22 A. Yes. This is the request related to the autopsy of the person
23 Qaili Atulla.
24 Q. And at some point in time, did you realise or did you come to know
25 that this Abdula Cajani is the same person that you've referred to the
1 autopsy protocol that we see as Atulla Qaili?
2 A. We realised it was the same person after several days when the
3 family of the deceased requested a document so that they are able to bury
5 Q. And in most cases, is this typically the only paperwork, what is
6 before you now, is that the only paperwork that you would receive with the
7 deceased at the time the request for autopsy is made?
8 A. In most of the cases we only receive the mortuary note, but
9 sometimes we are also submitted the discharge note from the hospital.
10 Q. And what information is typically reflected in what you have
11 termed the discharge note from the hospital?
12 A. The discharge note from the hospital or the mortuary note
13 indicates the personal data of the patient, also the diagnosis at
14 admission, any medical interventions performed, in the sense of laboratory
15 tests, X-ray, any surgeries performed, if the cause of death has been
16 identified, and the time of death.
17 Q. And with respect to the autopsy request for Atulla Qaili, though,
18 was this piece of paper that is displayed before you that the only piece
19 of paper that accompanied the body at that time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you performed the autopsy on Atulla Qaili, did you take notes
22 of your findings?
23 A. Yes. Notes are taken regarding the autopsy. There are special
24 charts for that, where any changes that are observed in the course of the
25 autopsy are recorded. And on -- at the other side of that page, of those
1 charts, notes are taken about the internal findings.
2 Q. Okay. Are these notes then incorporated into what you've termed
3 the final autopsy protocol?
4 A. Yes. Any change observed and recorded in the charts is described
5 in detail in the section protocol, in Macedonian language.
6 Q. If you could please turn to tab 3 of the binder.
7 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we could display, please, 65 ter 993?
8 Q. Dr. Jakovski, do you see the sketch or the paperwork that is in
9 front of you. It has some handwritten notes on it, and it has basically a
10 sketch of the front and back of the human body. There's also some
11 handwritten numbers or dimensions. Do you recognise the handwriting on
12 this particular document?
13 A. Yes, I do. These are sketches made by me in the course of the
15 Q. And is this in the course of a specific autopsy, that is, with
16 respect to Atulla Qaili?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And can you tell us, please, what do these markings indicate? I
19 see that have you circles or, loosely term them circles, on -- marked on
20 the front and back side of the body that is depicted here. What do those
21 markings indicate?
22 A. In this way, you record the injuries found on the body, their
23 appearance and location.
24 Q. And --
25 A. The measurements, as well as the abbreviations for contusion or
1 excoriation or haematoma. For instance, X would mean excoriation, H would
2 mean a haematoma, CONT would mean contusion.
3 Q. Could you please -- maybe perhaps we could just simply define
4 these terms one by one. You noted excoriation, which would be EX on this
5 diagram. Could you tell in just layperson's terms what that would mean?
6 A. It's excoriation. Excoriation would then mean --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the doctor is just
8 translating the words in Macedonian from the medical Latin. Haematoma is
9 a haematoma. I can't translate it differently?
10 A. Excoriation is a layer of skin being ripped.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment, it is again a translation
12 of these terms in Macedonian.
13 MS. MOTOIKE:
14 Q. With respect to a haematoma, would that be loosely termed as a
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And with respect to a contusion, is that -- what is difference
18 between that and basically a haematoma, if could you tell us, please?
19 A. The haematoma is blood spilling outside of the blood vessels into
20 the subcutaneous fat tissue. And a contusion is a sheet of skin being
21 ripped off, accompanied by a haematoma.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. So, in the case of a contusion we have both haematoma and
24 excoriation, or otherwise known as a sheet of skin missing, and that is
25 what a contusion means.
1 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, I see the time. Perhaps this might be
2 a good time to break.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Very well, Ms. Motoike.
4 We must adjourn now for the day and resume tomorrow at 2.15.
5 Doctor, I'm sorry, but we've come to the end of our sitting day,
6 and we would ask you if could you continue tomorrow at 2.15. Thank you.
7 We now adjourn for the evening.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of June,
10 2007, at 2.15 p.m.