1 Thursday, 28 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
6 The Chamber understands that it would be useful to fill in a few
7 moments awaiting for a document, and fortunately that Mr. Tarculovski's
8 counsel, Mr. Apostolski, is ready to step into the break and serenade us
9 for ten minutes. Is that right, Mr. Apostolski?
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honours.
11 Good morning.
12 I have tried last night to see whether I could make my
13 presentation shorter. In relation, very briefly, Your Honours, with your
14 leave, I would like to respond to the response of the Prosecutor to the
15 provisional release brief for the accused Tarculovski because of humane
16 reasons, and I would like to respond to their mainly erroneous information
17 contained in the Prosecution's response.
18 Towards this end, I would like to ask the usher to help me
19 distribute court binders.
20 The general conclusion is that the Defence of Johan Tarculovski
21 was confused when it received the Prosecution's response. The Defence
22 believes that the Prosecutor has made a mistake and responded to a brief
23 for provisional release of the accused Boskoski.
24 As an argument against the provisional release of the accused, the
25 Prosecution uses the alleged and unconfirmed support and the influence of
1 the accused Boskoski in Macedonia; and as a combination of it, it shows a
2 photograph of a billboard with a photograph of Boskoski, and I will speak
3 about it later.
4 The Prosecution does not provide any evidence in support of their
5 allegations, other than the statement of the investigator, Thomas Kuehnel,
6 who is the source of many uncorroborated and erroneous information.
7 First, the Prosecutor erroneously alleges that the guarantee of
8 the Government of the Republic of Macedonia does not indicate how will the
9 government fill its promises that the accused will be prevented from
10 influencing witnesses and victims or influence in any other way the
11 administration of justice. The guarantee indicates precisely that the
12 accused will be under 24 hours' surveillance, which will prevent him from
13 any way of exerting influence or making contacts.
14 Secondly, the Prosecutor alleges that the accused still has
15 influence over his active supporters. It has never been proven that the
16 accused has ever had active supporters. Secondly [as interpreted], it is
17 not proven that he has now any active or passive supporters. The accused
18 was just an ordinary inspector for security of persons, and he has never
19 had subordinates.
20 Furthermore, the Prosecutor indicates that the return to power of
21 VMRO-DPMNE Party, to which the accused belongs, brings in doubt the
22 implementation of the guarantee. The Defence wishes to clarify that the
23 party, VMRO-DPMNE, has been divided into two parties since 2001. One of
24 the parties retained the name VMRO-DPMNE, while the second is VMRO-NARODNA
25 or VMRO People's Party. Completely, the leadership of VMRO-DPMNE of 2001
1 is now part of VMRO-NARODNA Party. You can see this in tab 1, and there
2 is the report of the Peace and War Reporting Institute of 2nd of June,
4 In the elections in 2003, President of VMRO-DPMNE became Nikola
5 Gruevski, a very young liberal reformator [sic] who was very well known in
6 the public as a successful Finance Minister. Nikola Gruevski and the
7 former leader of VMRO-DPMNE, Ljupco Georgievski, started an open conflict
8 which lasts to this very day. The overall executive committee was changed
9 in 2003, and it was those people who won the elections in 2006, with
10 pro-European and economic agenda. You can see this in tab 2 of the court
11 binder, and that is a report of Radio Free Europe of 9th July 2004.
12 The governments consists now of VMRO DPMNE, the Democratic Party
13 of the Albanians, and the new Social Democrats. VMRO NARODNA has had only
14 seven MPs elected and is now in a position. You can see it is in tab 3 of
15 the court binder. This is an excerpt of World Book of Facts on Macedonia
16 from 2007, and you can also see there's a list of Ministers in the present
18 With regards to the cooperation of the Republic of Macedonia with
19 the Tribunal, the Prosecutor claims that many Macedonian officials still
20 feel an open, hostile sentiment towards the Tribunal and openly question
21 the supremacy of the Tribunal over the Macedonian law and procedure. This
22 conclusion of the Prosecutor is arbitrary and without any evidence in its
23 corroboration. The Prosecutor does not indicate any official from
24 Macedonia who is openly hostile towards the Tribunal. It is the opposite.
25 The Macedonian Prime Minister, Nikola Gruevski has visited the
1 Tribunal on the 14th of September 2006. You can see this in tab 4 of the
2 court binder, and it was not just him. It was also the vice-president of
3 the Government of the Republic of Macedonia, together with the Minister of
4 Justice and the Minister of the Interior, who have also visited the Court,
5 and they extended active support and cooperation to the ICTY.
6 As a result of all this, recently 20 Macedonian judges and
7 prosecutors came for a training in international criminal law here to the
9 The Defence, in the response to the allegations of the Prosecutor
10 in the relation of the candidate status of Macedonia in EU and NATO,
11 confirms that the expected accession of Macedonia to NATO in 2001 and the
12 start of negotiations for accession into the EU in 2008 makes Macedonia a
13 serious partner in the international relations, a partner who has assumed
14 serious obligations.
15 We attach as annexes a statement from the meeting of the President
16 Bush with the Prime, Minister Nikola Gruevski, as well as the meeting with
17 Italy's Prime Minister, Romano Prode in relation of the accession of
18 Macedonia to NATO and to the EU. You can see this in tab 5 of the binder,
19 where there is also the photograph from the meeting of the -- of
20 [indiscernible] with the Prime Minister.
21 At the same time, the election of Mr. Srgjan Kerim as the
22 President of the General Assembly of the United Nations, Srgjan Kerim is
23 an Ambassador of the Republic of Macedonia and is an ethnic Turk, shows
24 that the minorities in the Republic of Macedonia have free access and
25 progress in all professions.
1 Furthermore, the Prosecution claims that some requests for
2 assistance have been left unanswered and some have been answered only
3 partially by the Government of the Republic of Macedonia. We, hereby,
4 submit evidence received from the Prosecution regarding any request for
5 assistance requested from Macedonia, and that is contained in tab 6, where
6 we conceded the Prosecutor has submitted 122 huge requests to Macedonia,
7 while left unanswered are just four.
8 More than 1.200 documents have been received, and many of them
9 bear the label "State Secret." At the same time, just 40 per cent of the
10 Defence's requests for assistance have been answered, which gives rise to
11 the notion that the Prosecution has been treated with priority.
12 With regards to the influence over the witnesses and victims, we
13 believe that the assumptions of the Prosecution, that the ethnic
14 Macedonian witnesses are afraid because of the repercussions of their
15 testimony against them and their families and that they will be treated as
16 traitors of Macedonia is completely erroneous, arbitrary, and unsupported,
17 with any single evidence item. The Prosecution has not identified any
18 pressure or any risk, or has not learned that some of the witnesses
19 haven't signed the summons because of this reason.
20 Furthermore, the Prosecution claims that since the Macedonian
21 public follows the trial with great intensity, and since there is a
22 climate of tension, it results in Prosecution witnesses asking for
23 protection measures immediately before their testimony.
24 First, the Macedonian public is not following the trial intensely.
25 There is not a single accredited journalist to follow the trial. There is
1 no live feed, just from time to time there are very modest reports in some
3 Secondly, the Prosecutor, without any evidence, claims that there
4 is a climate of tensions, and such climate does not exist. The fact that
5 the witnesses ask for protection measures immediately before giving their
6 testimony might be due to the fact that they are not -- insufficiently
7 informed about the Prosecution about the procedure or they were or not led
8 well by the Prosecution.
9 The Prosecution claims several times in their response that the
10 accused, Tarculovksi, enjoys the support of the police. This is just an
11 arbitrary phrase which the Prosecutor's office uses without any evidence
12 for it or any proof of it. The Prosecutor's office did not identify a
13 single supporter of Tarculovski, and the Defence strongly resents such
14 abstract assessments.
15 The Prosecution claims that some insider witnesses are with
16 withdrawn or they could not remember some facts related to the accused.
17 It is again that the Prosecution failed to identify a single witness who
18 could not remember anything related to Tarculovski. If the Prosecution is
19 having problems and does not have the case according to their wishes, it
20 does not mean that Johan is to blame for this. They should look for the
21 reasons within the Prosecutor's office.
22 At the same time, why didn't the Prosecutor's office mention the
23 so-called crime-based witnesses who give two or three different statements
24 about a single event, and they could not remember facts from their
25 previous statements? Was it Johan who has exerted influence over them in
1 order for them to change their testimony?
2 The Prosecutor claims that some witnesses have been threatened
3 over the phone. Again, the Prosecution failed to provide evidence that
4 Mr. Johan Tarculovski has any connection with this.
5 Your Honours, we must also speak about the personal assessment of
6 Mr. Thomas Kuehnel, the investigator, that Johan Tarculovski must not be
7 released provisionally because he now plays the role of the Trial Chamber
8 in this. The Defence believes that his role is to collect facts and
9 verify them. We believe that his statement shouldn't be taken into
10 consideration because his information are uncorroborated and they are
11 hearsay information.
12 In relation to the reasons for the provisional release and whether
13 they are classified as humanitarian, the Defence claims that --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The Prosecutor
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] -- that the reasons from the
17 cases Hadzihasanovic and Kubura and Prlic could not be compared to the
18 reasons in the Tarculovski case, because in both those cases provisional
19 release is sought because of illness or deaths in the families. But the
20 Defence maintains the position that if humanity respect the death, it
21 should also celebrate and respect life. If the provisional release is to
22 allowed to assist ill members of the family, it should be used to assist
23 one's wife who is alone taking care of two children without the assistance
24 from the husband.
25 Thank you for the time you allocated for me, Your Honours, and I
1 think that this response will give you a more complete idea about our
2 request for provisional release of Mr. Johan Tarculovski.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Apostolski.
4 People are eager to speak in every direction.
5 Mr. Mettraux, seeing my head is turned that way.
6 MR. METTRAUX: I think I should start so that Mr. Saxon may
7 address our submission as well, Your Honour. We'll be very, very brief.
8 We don't have any submissions to make in relation to the merit of
9 the application. This is very much a matter between the Tarculovski
10 Defence and the Trial Chamber. I would like, however, to make very brief
11 submissions in relation to a comment which has been made by my colleague,
12 Mr. Apostolski, when he pointed out that the response of the Prosecution
13 appeared to be a response to an application by the Boskoski Defence rather
14 than the Tarculovski Defence, and I can say that we fully agree with what
15 our colleague has just said.
16 Your Honour will have found a picture of our client in one of the
17 annexes, which is a picture which appears in a billboard, the Prosecution
18 says, in Skopje with a message saying: "Truth for Macedonia." And in its
19 response, the Prosecution makes submissions which we would like to read to
20 the Chamber. It's at paragraph 21 of the Prosecution response.
21 It says: "Billboards depicting Boskoski have been placed in
22 public locations with a message of support, 'Truth for Macedonia.'"
23 The Prosecution goes on to say this: "The Macedonian population
24 understand this action as a single of encouragement towards the two
1 There's no reference to any evidence, to anything, to any
2 document, Your Honour. In any case, even if that were the case, we don't
3 see anything wrong with anyone showing support for our client, nor do we
4 see anything wrong for anyone asking for the truth for Macedonia or anyone
6 The Prosecution goes on to make those submissions: "This message
7 is also perceived as a sign of opposition towards the current ICTY
9 Again, Your Honour, no evidence, nothing to support that claim.
10 "This type of propaganda," the Prosecution says, "has raised the already
11 tense climate amongst the Macedonian population and has brought more
12 pressure and fear to the witnesses and victims."
13 Again, this is a baseless assertion without any evidence to
14 support it.
15 Your Honour has made it very clear that the Trial Chamber does not
16 wish to get in a tug-of-war between counsel and that we should keep to the
17 matters which are relevant to these proceedings, and we fully agree with
18 Your Honour in respect to that position. However, the Statute guarantees
19 that our client will benefit from, among other things, a presumption of
20 innocence, and that presumption is binding on the Prosecution as well.
21 We've indicated that in a number of filings the Prosecution has
22 made what we consider to be collateral attacks on our client without any
23 reasons and without any basis for it, and we ask that the Trial Chamber be
24 warned not to repeat those attacks.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux.
1 Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON: Just briefly, Your Honour, I'd like to respond to a
3 couple of points that my colleague Mr. Apostolski made.
4 In this binder of materials that has been provided to the Chamber
5 and the parties, we see at tab 6 a spreadsheet, and indeed it's correct
6 what my colleague said. This was a spreadsheet prepared by the
7 Prosecution and provided to the Defence. It was prepared by the
8 Prosecution in response to a request by our colleagues from the Defence
9 for disclosure of materials related to requests for assistance to the
10 Government of Macedonia and responses to those requests for assistance,
11 and the Prosecution produced this spreadsheet in order to give some
12 clarity to the matter and to show the information that had been requested
13 and then the information that had been received and disclosed to the
15 However, Your Honour, what this spreadsheet does not indicate,
16 because the Prosecution was not asked to indicate it, it does not indicate
17 whether responses to requests for assistance were fully complied with.
18 And, quite frankly, there were many requests for assistance over the years
19 where the response has been, shall I say, quite minimal.
20 My colleague Mr. Apostolski referred to a meeting here in the ICTY
21 with Prime Minister Gruevski in September of last year and several other
22 members of the current Macedonian government. At that meeting, the
23 Prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, provided a new request for assistance to Mr.
24 Gruevski, pointing out a list of earlier requests for assistance, for
25 which the response had been, at best, partial, and providing copies of
1 those earlier requests for assistance. And that letter was provided in
2 September, and to date the Prosecution has heard nothing more.
3 That's all, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon. The Chamber, assisted by
5 those further submissions, will give detailed consideration to the motion.
6 Now, are we ready to proceed? We better have the witness in.
7 Is there something else, Mr. Saxon?
8 MR. SAXON: A very minor point, Your Honour, but perhaps it's best
9 before the witness comes in.
10 I'd simply ask that perhaps the Chamber could ask our court
11 reporters to check something that I noted last night that is on page 2772
12 of the transcript. At line 12 and 13, there is a reference to the name
13 "Goran," and then the last name given there is "Stojkov," and I may have
14 been dreaming at the time, Your Honour, while I was on my feet, but my
15 strong recollection is that the surname provided by the witness at the
16 time was a very different surname. And there is another reference at line
17 16. Again we see the first name "Goran" and the last name "Stojkov," and
18 it's my recollection that the surname given was a very different surname
19 and, quite frankly, much more difficult to pronounce and to write. I'm
20 just asking perhaps if the tapes could be checked. That's all.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
22 MR. METTRAUX: Perhaps to assist, Your Honour, we have the same
23 recollection as the Prosecution.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. The request will be conveyed to the
25 reporters to check the tapes, and you will all be aware how difficult it
1 is to precisely catch names not only of places but, in particular, of
2 people when they are merely spoken in the course of our proceedings.
3 Could we have Mr. Hutsch, please.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may the Prosecution inform the Chamber of
5 one short fact?
6 JUDGE PARKER: Relevant facts are always of interest, Mr. Saxon.
7 What is this one?
8 MR. SAXON: I hope this will be considered relevant. It relates
9 to the witness Vehbi Bajrami. You'll recall, I believe it was last week,
10 where the Prosecution recommended that an addendum that had been admitted
11 into evidence as part of the 92 bis statement or package with the witness
12 Vehbi Bajrami be actually withdrawn, because the Prosecution suggested
13 that that particular addendum had been admitted due to a miscommunication,
14 and there was actually no legal basis for the admission.
15 The Trial Chamber agreed with the Prosecution's submissions, but
16 asked the parties to check to make sure that it would not be necessary for
17 the witness to return, and the Prosecution has reviewed the transcript.
18 The Prosecution has spoken with our colleagues from the Defence, and it's
19 our understanding that both parties are in agreement that there is no need
20 to bring this witness back, and that's what I wanted to convey to Your
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
23 If the matter was left unresolved, in view of what has been said,
24 the Chamber will order the withdrawal of that document from the exhibit.
25 MR. SAXON: Thank you.
1 WITNESS: FRANS-JOSEF HUTSCH [Resumed]
2 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Hutsch.
3 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Once again, the affirmation still applies, and
5 Mr. Saxon, I'm sure, is getting nearer to the end of his examination.
6 MR. SAXON: That's correct.
7 Examination by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]
8 Q. Mr. Hutsch, before we leave the events of 12 August 2001, I'd like
9 to go back for a moment to what you observed inside the village of
10 Ljuboten on that day.
11 Did you observe any members of the Macedonian Army?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. Did you observe any members of the National Liberation Army inside
14 the village?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 MR. SAXON: I'd like to ask our Court Officer's assistance,
17 please, if Prosecution Exhibit P314 can be brought up on e-court, please.
18 I think we're looking at the wrong image. The image we're looking
19 for is -- that's it. I'm wondering whether the image on the left, which
20 contains the map and the plastic overlay, if we could simply focus on that
21 image, please, instead of a split screen.
22 There you go. Thank you so much.
23 Q. Mr. Hutsch, just very briefly, to refresh our memories, you see,
24 in the middle of that map, in the area around the village of Ljuboten, we
25 see two small blue circles. Do you see those blue circles?
1 A. Yes, I see.
2 Q. And, yesterday, you indicated that those blue circles indicated
3 places where mortar fire impacted. Do you remember that?
4 A. Yes, I remember.
5 Q. Now, the upper blue circle has the time "0607" next to it; do you
6 see that?
7 A. Yes, I see.
8 Q. And then there is a circle beneath that and we see the time 10:18.
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes, I see.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters, once again, would like to ask
12 for all parties to mind that our language is much more concise and we need
13 time to interpret.
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. Mr. Hutsch, our colleagues in the interpreting booth have just
16 admonished us that we need to speak more slowly and pause between question
17 and answer. All right?
18 So on this map, after 10.18, you did not note or record any mortar
19 impacts in Ljuboten; is that what this indicates?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. If we could move now to Prosecution Exhibit P308, please, and
22 these are, Mr. Hutsch, your notes from 12 August 2001. They're at tab 11
23 of the binder that you should have. I want to review something with you,
25 If we can move to the next page of these notes, we see on this
1 page, at 0748 hours, there's information from a telephone call with
2 Mr. Beqiri. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes, I see.
4 Q. All right. There's no information here about mortar fire or
5 houses on fire in the village; correct?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Can we turn to the next page, please. And, again, on this page,
8 there's no references to mortar fire or homes on fire in the village; is
9 that fair?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Can we turn to the next page, please, which is after the -- now,
12 that top line: "No fire from Ljuboten at 0827 hours," again, in this
13 instance, the word "fire," you're referring to gunfire; is that right?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. Down below, we see, after the spearheads entering Ljuboten, you
16 refer to some explosions, a detonation flash; and then down below, at
17 8.34, it says: "Roof house at entry to town on fire." Right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Can we go to the next page, please. And we see on this page
20 there's no information related to mortar fire landing in the village or
21 homes on fire; is that fair?
22 A. There's one information above, just with the symbol for a mortar.
23 Q. I see. And that symbol for a mortar, does that mean an impact or
24 a firing of a shell?
25 A. An impact.
1 Q. All right. Can we -- but, again, there's no recording here of
2 more homes on fire; right?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Can we go to the next page, please. Now, on this page, at 1100
5 hours, we see references to explosions, RPG, machine-gun, AK-47, and then
6 the line below that: "Fire, northern part of Ljuboten," and the word
8 Can we move to the next page, please. And then we see that entry
9 ends: "... moving south." So the fire was slowly moving south, and,
10 again, the reference to "fire" was in reference to gunpowder; is that
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Gunfire, yes. Below that, we see the words: "Nine houses
14 burning." So you noted that at around 11.00; do you see that?
15 A. Yes, I see.
16 Q. Then below that, we see "1150 hours" and some information; and
17 below that, we see "1215 hours," and then we see: "14 houses burning.
18 Rifle fire waning."
19 Do you see that?
20 A. Yes, I see.
21 Q. So about two hours after you had recorded last impacts of shells
22 in the village of Ljuboten, because the recording you made on Exhibit 314
23 was made at 10.18. Just under two hours later you recorded: "14 houses
24 burning"; is that right?
25 A. That is right.
1 Q. Can we go to the next page, please. And here on this next page,
2 at 1300 hours, we see: "Fire weaker." And, again, is that reference to
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. But then below that, we see a line: "Approximately, 20 houses
6 burning." Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. So if my mathematics is correct - and I'm the first to
9 admit often it's not - about two hours and 45 minutes after you recorded
10 the last impact of mortar shells in the village of Ljuboten, you noted
11 that there were about 20 houses in the village that were burning or on
12 fire; is that right?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. If we could turn now, please, to what is tab 23 in your binder.
15 Mr. Hutsch, after the 12th of August, did you return to the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember the date that you returned to the village?
19 A. I returned on the 14th of August.
20 Q. And did you go into the village itself?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And did you have a notebook with you?
23 A. Yes, I had.
24 Q. And can you look at what's on the screen now. The first page,
25 N003-0016, can you tell us what that is?
1 A. That is this notebook from the 14th.
2 Q. Okay. Your notebook?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. And there's a green rectangle at the bottom with some
5 words in German in it. Is that the newspaper that you were working for at
6 the time?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. When you entered the village on the 14th, were you accompanied by
9 an interpreter or interpreters?
10 A. Yeah. I was accompanied by two interpreters; an Albanian-speaking
11 one and a Macedonian-speaking one.
12 Q. Today, are you willing to provide the Chamber with the names of
13 those interpreters?
14 A. No.
15 Q. I'd like to just explore with you briefly some of the notes that
16 you wrote here. First of all, we see it looks like a "T" with some
17 letters under it. There's a "T" with the number "1" on one side and the
18 number "2" on the other side. Can you tell us, please, what you were
19 recording here?
20 A. I was doing a sketch about the situation out of my memories when I
21 found two dead bodies that we were talking about yesterday.
22 Q. I see. So you were making -- on the 14th, you were making a
23 sketch of the bodies that you saw on the 12th of August?
24 A. No. I did this sketch on the evening of the 12th out of my
1 Q. I see. Okay. But you wrote it into the book that's marked "14
3 A. Exactly.
4 Q. All right. Below that, we see: "Ljuboten, 0945 hours," and then
5 the words: "Elmaz Jusufi." Did you have a conversation with this
6 gentleman, Mr. Jusufi?
7 A. Yes, we had.
8 Q. And we see some information here, it says: "Son Rami, 33, shot by
9 members of the Ministry of the Interior members on Sunday, car destroyed.
10 MUP uniformed, but not masked, entered the property around 0820 hours."
11 Below that: "Around 20 of them were in the front yard. Rami reportedly
12 tried to lock the front door, which was open."
13 Then if we go to the next page, please, we see your notes in
14 German on the right; and up at the top of the first page we see, towards
15 the top: "Door was reportedly blasted open. Rami was riddled hail of
16 bullets. Rami was hit in side and stomach." And below that, it says:
17 "MUP then reportedly poured petrol on the car and set fire to it."
18 Is this the information that Mr. Jusufi provided to you on that
20 A. Yes, that is.
21 Q. Below that, we see the word or the name "Aziz Bajrami, (66)." Do
22 you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then some notes below: "Hid together with eight women of the
25 family." Below that: "Ordered to leave the house. Men with hands to the
1 back of their heads, kneel. Men separated from women. Hand over
2 passports. 'Don't look up or you're dead.'"?
3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes, I see.
5 Q. Below that, it says that: "3.000 Deutsche marks belonging to Aziz
6 Bajrami were taken by a policeman," and towards the bottom of the page, it
7 says: "The group was all herded together. All kneel. Sulejman kicked in
8 the head several times, reportedly began to bleed from the nose."
9 Do you see that information?
10 A. Yes, I see.
11 Q. And is this information -- is this information that you received
12 from Aziz Bajrami on the 14th?
13 A. Yes, that is.
14 Q. Can we turn to the next page, please. The top of the next page,
15 we see a line: "Together with Muharem Bajrami (65)," then below
16 that: "after that, Muharem was reportedly shot."
17 Below that, we see a line: "MUP members reportedly shouted, 'The
18 pig is still moving.' "Fresh shots," and then below that, a quote, "Long
19 live Arkan."
20 Below that, we see: "All lay down again. Sulejman was kicked
21 again several times. He got up blearily and tried to run away." And then
22 below that: "Then the Chetnik who kicked him shot him, then all started
23 shooting." Then below that, a question mark and the words: "Aziz was
24 shot in the hand."
25 Is this the information that Aziz Bajrami gave you on the 14th of
2 A. Yes, that is.
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I would seek to tender
4 these notes.
5 JUDGE PARKER: On what basis?
6 MR. SAXON: On the basis that these notes are a nearly
7 contemporous [sic] of the events that occurred in Ljuboten on the 12th and
8 that they also corroborate the evidence of a number of witnesses who have
9 testified in this proceeding already.
10 JUDGE PARKER: The evidence of this witness might corroborate, but
11 not the notes. They are merely an assistance, but let me hear
12 Mr. Mettraux.
13 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Simply to make the same point that we've made in the last two
15 days. We're going to ask questions to this witness in relation to the
16 reliability and the truth of the notes in this document, so at this stage
17 we won't formally object, but we will certainly take it on with the
19 JUDGE PARKER: The notes will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P320, Your Honours.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. Can you turn now to tab 25, please, which is 65 ter number 168.
23 Mr. Hutsch, if you can take a look at this document, the first
24 page has the ERN number R037-6821; and, first of all, if we can step back
25 for a minute, in September 2001 -- or let me step back even further.
1 Did there come a time in 2001 when you stopped working as a
2 journalist in Macedonia?
3 A. Yes, it came.
4 Q. And about when was that?
5 A. That was in the middle of September, when I was called up as a
6 reserve officer to go to the staff of the military attache in the German
7 Embassy in Skopje.
8 Q. At that time, was there a NATO mission forming in Macedonia?
9 A. Yes. Very close to the events of Ljuboten, NATO started a mission
10 to collect the weapons of the NLA.
11 Q. And as part of your work as a reserve officer in the German army,
12 attached, I believe you said, to the embassy there, did you work with this
13 NATO mission?
14 A. Yes. It was part of my mission there.
15 Q. This document has the title, "Macedonia Briefing Pack." Did you
16 participate in the production of this document?
17 A. Yes, it was.
18 Q. Can I ask you, just in general terms, what was the purpose of this
19 document? Why was it produced?
20 A. This briefing pack should inform very important persons like
21 generals or politicians about the background of the conflict in Macedonia.
22 Q. All right. Was it also provided to members of the International
24 A. It was shared with them, but I don't know exactly if it was given
25 to them.
1 Q. All right. Why were you put on this particular project to help
2 produce this document?
3 A. So responsible for this project was, like in the first phase of
4 this mission, Essential Harvest, to collect all available information
5 about the Macedonian security forces as well as of the NLA, and it was
6 primarily my mission to support with information about the NLA.
7 Q. Well, why were you put on this project? Why you, specifically?
8 A. I think why I had -- why I had a view on the NLA at this time, a
9 very close view, and I -- they could take my notes from the past time that
10 I had as a journalist about the NLA.
11 Q. And so your knowledge was used to produce this report; is that
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Did you also contribute things like contact information?
15 A. Especially phone numbers I have had were given into this briefing
17 Q. Did you produce this briefing pack all by yourself or did you work
18 with some other people?
19 A. I was working together with members of the NATO-led force. That
20 means responsible has been a British intelligence unit, and there were
21 also German officers and French officers who supported this project.
22 Q. And so did you work closely with these other officers?
23 A. Yeah, we had regular meetings.
24 Q. After this Macedonia Briefing Pack was produced, we see at the top
25 here it says: "NATO Secret." Do you see that?
1 A. Yes, I see.
2 Q. Did there come a time when that classification was changed?
3 A. This classification was changed in the end of October, beginning
4 of November, when the British left Macedonian -- Macedonia and the German
5 took over the command. So it became clear that just for the following
6 forces or troops, it was difficult to work with this briefing pack just if
7 it was secret. So we opened that just for duty reasons to everybody and
8 could so brief the new commanders and the new squadron leaders and platoon
9 leaders and especially the liaison teams with this briefing pack as well.
10 Q. And how about diplomats, members of the International Community?
11 A. Yes. And this time as well they were briefed with this pack.
12 MR. SAXON: If I could ask the Court Officer's assistance, please.
13 I'm not going to go through every page of this document. If we could turn
14 to what is ERN R037-6840, which is the 19th page of this document.
15 Q. We see a title here, "Macedonian Security Forces," and can we go
16 to the next page, please.
17 I see that my colleague is on his feet, Your Honours.
18 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, perhaps --
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
20 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
21 Perhaps, Your Honour, a point of clarification.
22 Mr. Hutsch has clearly indicated that the information which he has
23 provided in relation to that document related to the NLA, the National
24 Liberation Army, and it now appears that my colleague is seeking to ask
25 him questions about the Macedonian forces. So, perhaps, if there could be
1 some clarification on the part of the Prosecution as to whether or not
2 Mr. Hutsch is capable of giving that evidence before he's been asked
3 questions about the substance.
4 MR. SAXON: I will do that, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 MR. SAXON:
7 Q. Mr. Hutsch, during the production phase of this document, did you
8 also assist by providing information and knowledge you had related to the
9 Macedonian government and the Macedonian security forces?
10 A. Yes, we did.
11 Q. But I need to know if you did. You said "we did."
12 A. Yeah, I did.
13 Q. All right. And was some of that information that you provided,
14 did that pertain to the Macedonian Ministry of the Interior?
15 A. No, I didn't -- I didn't hand over detailed information about the
16 Minister of Interior, but we were discussing exactly the schedule that you
17 are showing me now.
18 Q. But did you assist in the production of this, shall I call it,
19 organogram from the knowledge that you had and the experience that you had
20 in Macedonia?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Very briefly, we see up at the top center: "Ljube
23 Boskoski, Minister of the Interior," and then below that a serious of
24 names and positions.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. There is a dotted line going from the name "Ljube Boskoski" to the
2 right and then down to the words "Special Units." Do you see that?
3 A. Yes, I see.
4 Q. And then there's another line underneath the words "Special
5 Units." On the left, we see "Red Berets, Major Goran Stojkof," and a
6 telephone number. To the center, we see "Tigers," and the name "Goran."
7 And then to the right, we see: "Lions, CT Unit, Goran."
8 Can you tell us, first of all, why this dotted line appears there
9 from the Minister to the special units?
10 A. So it was the opinion of this meeting that the Minister personally
11 had the command over the special units.
12 Q. All right. We see, on the left, the words, beneath "Special
13 Units," we see "Red berets, Major Goran Stojkof." On the far right, we see
14 "Lions," and then below that low the word "Goran."
15 Can you tell, please, what you recall how these two apparently
16 different units were placed there and the same first name is there?
17 A. So there were a disagreement between the officers in this meeting
18 if the Red Berets and the Lions are the same unit or if they are different
19 units. It was known that the Lions were headed by a man with the pre-name
20 Goran; and that what is called here as the Red Berets, they are commanded
21 by Major Goran Stojkof.
22 Q. What did you believe?
23 A. Personally, I believed that the Red Berets and the Lions are the
24 same unit.
25 Q. Were the same unit?
1 A. Were the same unit.
2 Q. However, we see on this organogram they were listed separately.
3 Was that the result of a disagreement?
4 A. That is the result of the disagreement.
5 Q. In other words, who won that, if I can say this, if this is
6 correct, whose viewpoint prevailed at this time?
7 A. That was the more British point of view.
8 Q. All right. Based on your knowledge and experience in Macedonia
9 during 2001, do you disagree with any other information on this diagram?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. Mr. Hutsch, did you also contribute information related to the
12 Macedonian Army for this briefing pack?
13 A. Yes, I had.
14 Q. Can we turn to the next page, please. It's ERN R037-6842.
15 Did you help -- we see this diagram here. It says: "Minister of
16 Defence and General Staff." Did you help construct this organogram?
17 A. Yes, in the same way I explained like for the Ministry of
19 Q. And, again, to the best of your knowledge, is the information on
20 this organogram correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. If we can turn now, please, to R037-6857, which is about the 36th
23 page of the Macedonian Briefing Pack. We see here a heading of a
24 chapter: "National Liberation Army." Did you participate in the -- did
25 you provide information in the construction of this chapter of the
1 briefing pack?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, which would be ERN R037-6858.
4 This is an organogram entitled "NLA Military Structure." Did you help
5 create this organogram?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. We see in the red box at the top, it says: "GHQ Prizren." What
8 does that indicate?
9 A. That means that is the general headquarter of the NLA that was
10 located in Prizren.
11 Q. And Prizren is part of Kosovo; right?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Below that, we see a smaller red box and with the letters: "GHQ
14 TAC," and then below that, "Sipkovica." What does that indicate?
15 A. That indicates that we had forwarded the headquarter of the NLA in
16 the Macedonian village of Sipkovica.
17 Q. What does "GHQ TAC" stand for?
18 A. That is the general headquarter tactical.
19 Q. All right. And to your knowledge, who was the head of the general
21 A. In the first phase of the -- of the crisis or the conflict in
22 Macedonia, it was General Ostreni.
23 Q. Do you recall his first name?
24 A. General, that means Gzim Ostreni in the rank of a general; and
25 then I think from May on, it turned a little bit that also the political
1 heat of the NLA, Ali Ahmeti was present in Sipkovica.
2 Q. Below to the left, we see two smaller red boxes: "Tetovo command,
3 Sipkovica" and then next to it, "Kumanovo command, Slupcane." What do
4 those boxes represent?
5 A. We have the two parts of the front in Macedonia, there is the
6 western part in Tetovo. They had the command post in Sipkovica, and they
7 were commanding one brigade. And we had another command post as
8 responsible for the eastern part of Macedonia, Kumanovo area, that was
9 based in Slupcane and who were leading two brigades.
10 Q. And, again, when you use the pronoun "they," such as, "They had
11 the commanding post in Sipkovica," who are you referring to?
12 A. I'm referring to the NLA.
13 Q. All right. Below these command rectangles, we see seven smaller
14 rectangles in red. What do these seven smaller rectangles represent?
15 A. They are standing for the seven brigades of the NLA.
16 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, were all of those brigades fully
17 functioning during the entire conflict?
18 A. No. Just five brigades were fully functionable, and two brigades
19 were just in training and in a build-up phase.
20 Q. Which were the five brigades that were fully functioning?
21 A. These were the Brigades 112th, 113th, 114th, 115th, and 116th.
22 Q. So to the right we see two red rectangles with dotted lines around
23 them. One says "117th Brigade Debar" and then the other one says "111th
24 Brigade Debar." These were the two NLA brigades that were in formation
25 during the crisis?
1 A. Yes, that's it.
2 Q. Can we turn to the next page, please. This is ERN number
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
5 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Simply a matter of clarification. If it's the Prosecution
7 intention to seek to tender this document, the Defence is wondering
8 whether the Prosecution is going to ask Mr. Hutsch which part of the
9 document he has contributed to. He's indicated, in response to my
10 colleague's question, that he had contributed to the preparation of this
11 particular document, but he hasn't been asked what information he was able
12 to contribute to the preparation of that document, and that may be
14 MR. SAXON: Just to clarify, are we referring to the page related
15 to the NLA that we just reviewed or to every single page in the document?
16 JUDGE PARKER: I would, at the moment, refer to every page to
17 which you make specific reference.
18 MR. SAXON: If we can go back to the last page that we looked at,
19 which was entitled "NLA Military Structure" at ERN R037-6858.
20 Q. Can you tell us, please, Mr. Hutsch, which pieces of information
21 on this organogram were provided by yourself?
22 A. So it's a little bit -- a little bit difficult to explain how
23 intelligence work functions or works in this moment, because every nation
24 is coming in with an imagination of the matter that has to be discussed.
25 So this structure that is here was nearly complete, my introduction to
1 this conference.
2 And everywhere there was disagreement, it was discussed, and
3 information by other nations flew in in creating this briefing pack. So
4 to have here now all the detailed information, because if you say just
5 there is a general headquarter, what brings in this information to bring
6 us to the conclusion this is a general headquarter, there are so much
7 information that I think we will -- we will have to continue for
8 another -- for weeks.
9 If you would like to have all this detailed information, we have
10 to discuss that.
11 Q. Perhaps, Mr. Hutsch, we can do it a bit more simply.
12 This organogram here that's entitled "NLA Military Structure," did
13 this structure itself, the organogram itself, was this a structure
14 suggested by you?
15 A. Yes. The information that led to this organogram were given by
17 Q. All right. If we could go back, please, to what is ERN R037-6841.
18 This the organogram of the Macedonian Mini Ministry of the Interior that
19 we saw before. Mr. Hutsch, if you can recall, what part or parts of this
20 organogram did you contribute?
21 A. So this was a suggestion by the British group in this project; and
22 like I pointed out, we -- the German position was different, as well as
23 the French position, to the special units, that means to the structure of
24 the special units in this organogram. So our participation in this
25 project was that we disagreed to this point, and this was our part in
1 the -- in this discussion.
2 Q. And the remaining points, the remaining parts of the structure,
3 you agreed with?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was consistent with your knowledge?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can we turn back once more. It's actually the next page,
8 R037-6842. It's entitled "Ministry of Defence and General Staff."
9 We've looked at this before, Mr. Hutsch, but can you tell us what
10 part or parts of this organogram did you contribute?
11 A. It's the same way like I described the process before. This was
12 also a suggestion of the British members of this group, and we discussed
13 that, and we agreed on this -- on this special organogram.
14 Q. In other words, the different military officers involved agreed on
15 this structure, on this organogram?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can we turn now, please, to what is ERN R037-6859. This is
18 another organogram. It's titled "NLA Military Leadership."
19 Did you Hutsch, did you contribute the information on part or
20 parts of this organogram?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Which part or parts?
23 A. So as a journalist, I was the first one who said that Ali Ahmeti
24 was the head of the NLA in Macedonia. So this information, for example,
25 came over and flew in, in this organogram, as well as the whole of Dreni
1 Korabu, who in my eyes was the political adviser or something like a
2 political adviser, flew in. Yeah, and in the identification of the
3 adviser team of Ali Ahmeti, as well as some names, came in by me. So have
4 you to imagine also that this briefing book is the last one that we
6 This was a so-called living book. That means in the first it was
7 just a handful of information; and when I came to the German Embassy, we
8 started to continue in writing this book, so a lot of information, for
9 example, changed.
10 Q. Referring to this page now, we see photographs of some people with
11 names, silhouettes of other persons with names. Did you meet the persons
12 that are named on this organogram?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Was that during the war?
15 A. During the war and during my time as an officer in Macedonia.
16 Q. Where we see silhouettes and no photographs, why don't we see a
18 A. Because there was not a photograph available in this moment.
19 Q. What do you mean by "there was no photograph available"? Why not?
20 A. Some of these persons didn't like to be photographed, and some of
21 these persons hided their, I will say, face in this time and wanted to
22 have their identity covered.
23 Q. All right. And to summarise, the information on this page, it
24 came from you, then?
25 A. Some of them came from me, yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us which parts came from you?
2 A. So that Ali Ahmeti was the political leader of the NLA; the
3 information about Dreni Korabu; I think, as well, the information about
4 Imrez Simajili [phoen].
5 Q. Did you agree with the other information that's on this
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. If we can turn now to page ERN R037-6860. This is a document or
9 an organogram entitled "NLA Military Command- GHQ." "GHQ," it stands for
10 "General Headquarters"?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. The information on this organogram, did some or all of it come
13 from you?
14 A. Some of them.
15 Q. What information came from you?
16 A. For example, the nicknames of Ali Ahmeti and Gzim Ostreni; the
17 information about Dreni Korabu; I think, also Bashram Ramadani came from
19 Q. What can you tell us about the role of Gzim Ostreni, known as
20 Plaku, during the military crisis of 2001?
21 A. He was the military chief of the NLA.
22 Q. So what were Mr. Ostreni's responsibilities then?
23 A. He was responsible for all tactical and operational leadership in
24 the NLA.
25 Q. And did you meet Gzim Ostreni during the crisis in 2001?
1 A. I met him during the crisis in 2001.
2 Q. Do you know what Mr. Ostreni's professional background was?
3 A. He was a former artillery officer in the former Yugoslavian army.
4 Q. How about after that?
5 A. Then he became Chief of Staff in Operational Zone 1 of the KLA in
6 Kosovo during the Kosovan conflict, where he was the military adviser to
7 Ramush Haradinaj; after that, he became the Chief of Staff of the KPC, the
8 Kosovo Protection Corps; and in the change of the year of 2000 and 2001,
9 he became the Chief of Staff and Superior Commander of the NLA in
11 Q. And at the time, 2001, when this organogram was put together, did
12 you believe it was accurate?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can we turn now, please, to ERN R037-6861? It's the next page.
15 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I apologise once again, but so as to
16 not create any delay or any risk that Mr. Saxon may have to go back to the
17 documents, Mr. Hutsch has indicated that he's given some information which
18 he contributed to the document. It may be important or it may be
19 relevant, perhaps, to ask him where he got that information from.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I will leave that entirely to you, Mr. Saxon,
21 whether you wish to pursue that. If you don't, it's probably a convenient
23 MR. SAXON: Perhaps, I can briefly pursue it. Well, I see it is a
24 convenient time, so I will stop here, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: Can we move back, please, to ERN R037-6858 within this
5 briefing pack.
6 Q. Mr. Hutsch, we return to this organogram entitled "NLA Military
7 Structure," and I just wanted to clarify a couple points. During the
8 crisis time in 2001, did you visit the general headquarters of the NLA in
10 A. No, I didn't visit this headquarter directly.
11 Q. Can you tell us how you received this information, that the
12 general headquarters was in Prizren?
13 A. First, there have been press discussions or briefings, press
14 briefings, with Ali Ahmeti in this area. Second, there were information
15 by confidential sources that told us exactly the building where this
16 headquarter was. And the third is that in the upcoming crisis in
17 Macedonia and in the ongoing crisis in the Cresevo valley, I got several
18 information that this headquarter is located in Prizren for the NLA in
20 Q. And for the record, are you able to provide us with the identities
21 of these confidential sources?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Below that, we see a smaller red rectangle: "General
24 Headquarters, Sipkovica." Did you go to this general headquarters in
25 Sipkovica during 2001?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Did you meet Mr. Ostreni or -- did you meet Mr. Ostreni there?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Did you have discussions with him?
5 A. Yes, I had.
6 Q. At some point, did you meet Ali Ahmeti there?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. We see below these red boxes about the Tetovo command, Sipkovica,
9 and the Kumanovo command, Slupcane. During the crisis time, did you go to
10 these commands?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And did you have conversations with the NLA officers there?
13 A. Yes, I had.
14 Q. Did these conversations include information about the structure of
15 the NLA?
16 A. Yes, it had.
17 Q. Down below we see the five brigades you mentioned earlier
18 functioning during the crisis and the two brigades in Debar that were not
19 fully operational. With respect to these five brigades, did you
20 personally observe these different brigades?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. During 2001?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can we turn now, please, to R037-6859. It's the next page,
25 please. This is the organogram entitled "NLA Political Leadership." You've
1 told us already that you've spoken with Ali Ahmeti. Below him, we see the
2 name "Dreni Korabu," also known as Dreni. Did you personally meet with
3 Mr. Korabu during 2001?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Did you have discussions with him about the political leadership
6 of the NLA?
7 A. Yes, I had.
8 Q. And on this organogram, we see other names, but silhouettes. Can
9 you remind us, please, did you personally meet some of the persons who are
10 identified by name?
11 A. I met everybody who is named in this organogram in 2001.
12 Q. Did you discuss NLA activities with them?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Can we turn now to R037-6860, please. This is the organogram
15 entitled "NLA Military Command - General Headquarters." You mentioned
16 that you met with Ali Ahmeti and Gzim Ostreni during 2001. We see below
17 them a line of squares. We see the name again "Dreni Korabu." Next -- to
18 the left of "Dreni Korabu" we see the name "Nazim Beqiri." Did you meet
19 Mr. Beqiri in 2001?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. To the right of the name "Dreni Korabu" we see the word
22 "logistics" and then the name Xhavit Hasani. Did you meet Mr. Hasani
23 during 2001?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. How about the other names we see in this of squares?
1 A. I was meeting as well with Bashqim [phoen] Ramadani and Basli
2 Hajdari [phoen] and with Caesar Dimiri [phoen].
3 Q. And did you discuss NLA operations with these gentlemen?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. If we can turn now to ERN R037-6861, please. This is an
6 organogram entitled "NLA Military Command - Brigades." Did you assist in
7 the production of this organogram?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. What parts -- what parts or part of the information came from you,
10 if you can recall?
11 A. So I handed over a suggest in the organogram that showed how, in
12 my point of view, the military command works, and most of these parts are
13 in this organogram.
14 Q. Can you tell us, please, which suggestions by you were
15 incorporated into this organogram?
16 A. So that was, I will say, the middle of the organogram, that we
17 have had seen, I think, the second, where we had the military structure of
18 the NLA. That means Gzim Ostreni as the headquarter, the Tetovo command
19 and the Kumanovo command, as well as the brigade commanders below.
20 Q. And we see a -- the bottom row, we see seven brigade commanders.
21 So this was information provided by you; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. These brigade commanders in the bottom row, did you meet these
24 gentlemen during 2001?
25 A. Yes. I met most of these brigade commanders. I didn't meet Zaki.
1 Q. And just for the record, that is the last person reflected on the
2 far right of the bottom row.
3 Up above that bottom row, we see two names: Xhavit Hasani,
4 Ibrahim Dehari. Was this information provided by you?
5 A. No, it wasn't.
6 Q. Did you disagree with this information?
7 A. No. I don't disagree, because like you see, it is not clear which
8 function especially Xhavit Hasani had in the structure of the NLA.
9 Q. If we can turn to the next page, please, R037-6862. It's
10 titled -- I'll wait for it here. I'm not seeing this on the e-court.
11 It's a document entitled "NLA Command and Control." Here it's coming, I
13 Mr. Hutsch, did you assist in the production of this organogram?
14 A. This organogram is a result -- a conclusion of that what we have
15 had seen before. So far away the information that I gave were part of
16 this organogram.
17 Q. My question was: Did you assist in the production of this
18 organogram? Just "yes" or "no."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. To the right of the name "Ali Ahmeti," we see a red
21 rectangle with some question marks, and it says "Dispora Influence." It
22 probably should say "Diaspora Influence." Can you tell us what is
23 depicted there?
24 A. That is the influence that Albanians in the Diaspora, that means
25 especially in Switzerland, in Germany, in Austria and in Italy, had on the
1 development on the NLA in Macedonia, and especially with special taxes
2 that had been given by Albanians in the Diaspora to pay the NLA.
3 Q. By "pay," do you mean "support"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Why are there question marks in the silhouettes in that particular
7 A. It was in the time when we -- when we created this briefing map,
8 not already clear who is behind these people. There was just a name,
9 Vasli Ofilio [phoen] who was clear as one member of this Diaspora
10 influence, but it was not clear who was with him.
11 Q. All right. Then lower down in the middle of the picture, we see a
12 picture "Beqiri, headquarters information press officer." Is this a
13 person that is reflected in some of your notes from the 12th of August
15 A. Yes, he is.
16 Q. Further to the right, we see: "NLA military arm," and then
17 further to the right, we see a photograph and the name "Fatmir." What
18 does that indicate, this photograph with the gentleman named Fatmir?
19 A. "Fatmir," that means Sokola Kuskim [phoen]. He had a special
20 function in the General Staff, as at the end of the crisis he was
21 responsible for evaluation and training.
22 Q. And did you speak with this gentleman known as Fatmir during 2001?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. And at the bottom row, we see a black horizontal line with a
25 number of numbers, "G-1, G-2, G-3", going up to "G-8." Can you tell us
1 what these "G" numbers indicate?
2 A. These "G" numbers indicate the different sections that are
3 belonging to a general staff or to a military staff.
4 Q. When you say "a military staff," are you referring to specifically
5 the NLA, other armies? What do you mean by "a military staff"?
6 A. These eight sections are the same in every military staff that
7 is -- that is organised in a hierarchy.
8 Q. When you say "every military staff," do you mean in every army?
9 A. In every army.
10 Q. And when this organogram was produced, did you agree to its
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. If you can turn briefly, please, to R037-6868. I'm sorry, if in
14 the English version, we could go to one page before that, please, 6868.
15 I'm not sure if the Macedonian version we're seeing on the screen
16 is the same. Maybe it's changing now.
17 This organogram is titled "113th Ismet Jashari-Kumanovo Brigade."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you assist in this organogram?
21 A. Yeah, I did, in the discussions.
22 Q. What parts of the information came from you, if you can recall?
23 A. I confirmed, for example, the function of Ibrahim, the function of
24 Shpati, and the function of Jakup.
25 Q. And just for the record, "Ibrahim" is the nickname underneath the
1 photograph at the top of the organogram, "Shpati" is below that and to the
2 left, and "Jakup" is below that and further to the left.
3 And this information that you were able to confirm, how were you
4 able to confirm that? Where did you get your information about this?
5 A. I met these people in 2001.
6 Q. To your knowledge, is the remainder of the organogram accurate?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Can we turn, please, to R037-6870. This is an organogram entitled
9 "114th Fadil Limani Brigade." Did you contribute some of the information
10 on this organogram?
11 A. It was my -- it was my influence that I said this command had two
12 headquarters: One in the Kumanovo area, that means Nikustak; and the
13 other one in Vistica.
14 Q. And how did you obtain that information?
15 A. That was part of the normal intelligence meeting in this time.
16 Q. No. My question is: How did you know or how did you get the
17 information that this brigade had two different headquarters?
18 A. Because this brigade was led by Gzim Ostreni in parts of the
19 operation himself.
20 Q. And how did you know that?
21 A. Because Ostreni told me.
22 Q. And can we go now to the next page, please, R037-6871. This is a
23 continuation of the information related to the 114th Brigade. The
24 information in this organogram, did you contribute some of it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What parts?
2 A. That Adashi is the commander of this brigade and Kitra the Chief
3 of Staff.
4 Q. How did you know that Adashi was the commander of this brigade?
5 A. I met him in 2001.
6 Q. How did you know about Kitra's role?
7 A. I met him as well in 2001.
8 Q. Was the 114th Brigade involved in some fighting around Aracinovo?
9 A. Yes. She was highly involved in this -- in this fightings.
10 Q. And, eventually, what happened to this brigade at the end of that
12 A. I think as I pointed out in the very first day of my testimony,
13 this brigade was withdrawn with support by American KFOR troops from
14 Aracinovo to Nikustak in June, end of June, 2001.
15 Q. Was the whole brigade withdrawn?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Nikustak, is that in Macedonia?
18 A. That's in Macedonia.
19 Q. And after that, did the whole brigade remain in Macedonia?
20 A. No. This remained -- just left parts of it in Macedonia, and the
21 other part was withdrawn into Kosovo.
22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I would seek to tender this
23 Macedonian Briefing Pack.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
25 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 There is a number of objections which we would raise in relation
2 to that particular document. The first one has to do with the general
3 reliability of this document.
4 First, Mr. Hutsch has only been able to give evidence in relation
5 to some but certainly not to all aspects of that document. Furthermore,
6 in relation to certain aspects of that document in relation to which he's
7 given information, he's refused to disclose the sources on which he says
8 he based himself to give that information.
9 Furthermore, there remains many grey areas as to the nature of the
10 material that was used by him or by anyone else who contributed to that
11 document, to prepare that document, in particular, whether they were
12 intelligence sources, as Mr. Hutsch suggested; whether they were open
13 sources; or whether it's any material to which we could have access.
14 The second ground of objection, Your Honour, is a matter of
15 relevance. We would wish to know, in particular, the date of that
16 document and whether, depending on the answer to that question, whether
17 this document is relevant at all to the proceedings. We have good reasons
18 to believe that this document, and Mr. Hutsch has indicated it himself,
19 that it was prepared after the events which are relevant to this case.
20 Furthermore, and while I'm addressing this issue, the Prosecution
21 has been asking questions today to this witness but also for the past two
22 months or so about special units of the Ministry of Interior, and I
23 believe that the time has come for the Prosecution to tell us what is the
24 relevance of those special units to this case. At this stage, the Defence
25 does not know or does not understand what the relevance of those units is.
1 It's been indicated, at least as far as the Tigers unit is
2 concerned, that there is no suggestion on the part of the Prosecution that
3 they were in the village of Ljuboten during these events, so I believe
4 that the Prosecution should now be asked to clarify this matter.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: I'll try to respond briefly, Your Honour.
7 With respect to the issue of reliability, the Prosecution believes
8 that the objections of the Defence may go to the weight that the Chamber
9 may decide to give to this document. However, they should not prevent its
11 The witness has described how this document was produced. The
12 witness has described in detail the information on a number of the pages
13 contained within this document. And the witness has explained how a large
14 amount of information contained on these pages came directly from himself
15 based on the knowledge and experience that he gained as a journalist in
16 2001 in Macedonia.
17 It is true, Your Honours, that there are certain sources that --
18 whose information was used on certain details in this document which
19 Mr. Hutsch will not disclose. However, again, the Prosecution submits
20 that those sources are, at least based on the testimony that we've heard,
21 are relatively few, because much of the material -- much of the testimony
22 that we've heard is that a great deal of this information came from this
23 witness's knowledge and observations during 2001.
24 With respect to relevance, Your Honour, if I may be given a moment
25 to ask the witness, in terms of his knowledge, as to the time period that
1 the structures in this document refer to. May I be granted leave to do
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Mr. Hutsch, the different structures, the Ministry of Interior,
6 the Minister of Defence that we've looked at, structures of the NLA, what
7 time period do these structures represent?
8 A. These structures represent the time in summer 2001 to, yeah, until
9 I left Macedonia on the 30th of November, 2001.
10 Q. And by "summer 2001," can you be more specific? What months?
11 A. I would say roughly July, August.
12 MR. SAXON: With respect, given that testimony, Your Honour, the
13 Prosecution submits that this briefing pack, in terms of the time period,
14 would be relevant.
15 With respect to the issue that my colleague raised about special
16 units, we have heard testimony, Your Honour, about the presence of certain
17 individuals in the village of Ljuboten. We've also heard testimony about
18 the presence of -- excuse me, about the positions of those persons within
19 the Ministry of the Interior. And so, therefore, we believe this evidence
20 is relevant because the evidence may show, at the end of the day, it goes
21 to the issue of whether the accused Boskoski had effective control over
22 the persons who were in Ljuboten on the 12th of August, 2001, whether they
23 were involved as formal members of a so-called special unit or whether
24 they were there in another capacity within the Ministry of the Interior.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
1 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Two very brief matters, first in relation to the last response
3 given by my colleague in relation to the role of those special units.
4 At this stage, Your Honour, we'll simply indicate that the
5 Prosecution will be put to the task to demonstrate that this is indeed
6 part of its case. And if, indeed, it claims that it's part of its case,
7 we would wish an indication as to where we can locate these particular
8 allegations which Mr. Saxon has just made.
9 As regards the further questioning of the witness by Mr. Saxon in
10 relation to the time, Your Honour, we -- it will be the position of the
11 Defence that the evidence given by Mr. Hutsch in relation to this matter
12 is, at the least, incorrect. We will be able to ask questions in relation
13 to this matter further on in the cross-examination. At this stage, we
14 simply wish to indicate to Your Honour that we have reasons to believe
15 that the evidence or the answers given to the questions of Mr. Saxon are
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE PARKER: The document will be received, Mr. Saxon. The
19 evidence of the witness, from his personal observation alone, speaks
20 directly to some of the contents and sufficient to justify the admission
21 of the document. The relevance is speaking of a period of time in which
22 this information is said to be applicable, that period including the dates
23 that are material to the indictment.
24 Having said those things, the Chamber makes it very clear, so that
25 there can be no misunderstanding, that the reliability of the whole
1 document and the weight, if any, which the Chamber will in the end be able
2 to attach to it, are matters which will have to be considered in the light
3 of all the evidence at a later stage.
4 It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P321, Your Honours.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution has no
7 further questions.
8 JUDGE PARKER: That isn't a signal, I'm afraid, Mr. Hutsch, that
9 you can go; it's not.
10 Mr. Mettraux.
11 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hutsch, or good morning. My name is Guenal
14 Mettraux, and I'm appearing together with Edina Residovic on behalf of
15 Mr. Boskoski.
16 You will recall, Mr. Hutsch, that you have been asked a number of
17 questions in relation to your work as a journalist and the methods which
18 you used in that capacity. Do you recall that?
19 A. Sorry?
20 Q. Do you recall having been asked general questions by my colleague
21 about your work and method as a journalist; do you recall that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you recall also giving an indication that for the past 12
24 years or so you worked as a freelance journalist; is that correct?
25 A. Not all the time as a freelance journalist, especially in the
1 period of 2001. From 1999 up to 2002, I was an employed journalist.
2 Q. Would I be correct, then, to understand that during the past 12
3 years or so, the only employment or work that you've had was as a
4 journalist; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. And --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the parties not to
8 overlap with questions and answers.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Mr. Hutsch, I've been given the same warning
10 as Mr. Saxon. We are being -- I am being, in any case, too fast.
11 Q. You've indicated as well that you've taken certain steps to verify
12 information which would be provided to you as a journalist before
13 publishing it; is that correct?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. And one of the ways in which you did so was to ensure that for
16 each piece of information which you would receive, you would have two
17 sources of information before publishing anything; is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And that was a way for you to guard against false or unreliable
20 material and information; is that correct?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. I understand that it was your practice, when you published with
23 the "Hamburger Adendblatt" to mention the place from which you were
24 writing articles; is that correct?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. And that would not necessarily be the place in relation to which
2 you were reporting; is that correct?
3 A. I don't understand the question.
4 Q. My question is if you had, let's say, visited a particular place
5 on one day and then went on to another place to write your article, the
6 place mentioned in the article would be the place where the article was
7 written; is that correct?
8 A. Where the article was written or the article was researched.
9 Q. And I think it was also your practice, when you wrote for the
10 "Hamburger Adendblatt", to mention at times the city of Hamburg. Could
11 you explain to me or to the Chamber why it was your practice to mention,
12 let's say, Skopje and Hamburg?
13 A. That was all the time then the practice when there were
14 information from Germany that took a big part in these articles. For
15 example, development of the German army.
16 Q. So if you mention, let's say, the city of Skopje/Hamburg, that
17 would mean you were in Skopje and received information from Hamburg in
18 relation to that particular piece; am I --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And a question about publication, sir, if an article is published,
21 let's say, on the 23rd of May, 2001, let's say, at what time should you
22 have to send the article to your newspaper for that particular issue?
23 A. That depends on the -- on the time that my chief editor gave to
25 Q. And what would be the latest time so that it could be published in
1 the next-day issue?
2 A. The most latest time was 8.00 in the evening.
3 Q. And am I correct to understand, sir, that you wouldn't write an
4 article in relation to a particular place or a particular incident unless
5 you had, yourself, been to that place?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Yes, you would not write such an article?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And if you hadn't been to such a place, you would indicate that
10 you had received the information from a source; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You've also indicated in your evidence that it was your practice
13 to keep careful notes about your activities; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you also indicated that you would do so on a daily basis
16 generally; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I'd like to read to you a passage from your statement which you've
19 given to the Prosecution on the 25th of August, 26th of August and 27th of
20 August of 2005, and that's at paragraph 40, and I'll read it out slowly to
21 you, Mr. Hutsch. You were recorded as saying the following: "Normally
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
25 MR. SAXON: The witness gave a very long statement to the
1 Prosecution years ago. Would it be possible that a copy of his statement
2 be either provided to him or somehow could he view what's being put to him
3 on the screen?
4 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we have the number. It's 1D234, with
5 an ERN of 1D002567.
6 MR. SAXON: And we have hard copies, Your Honour, if that would be
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.
10 MR. METTRAUX: Mr. Hutsch, would you like to receive a paper copy?
11 THE WITNESS: That would be beautiful.
12 JUDGE PARKER: If it's going to be the subject of a number of
13 questions ...
14 MR. METTRAUX: It may not be a bad idea, Your Honour, that he
15 receives a copy.
16 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will have a copy, then, it appears.
17 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, perhaps we'll distribute binders at
18 this stage which will simplify matters a great deal, because we understand
19 that a number of documents will be referred to, although -- with the
20 assistance of the usher.
21 Q. Mr. Hutsch, I'll ask you to turn to page 3 of your statement. That
22 would be paragraph 14, 1-4.
23 MR. METTRAUX: And, Your Honour, the Court Usher will distribute
24 to each member of the Trial Chamber two binders of documents which will
25 relate to this witness.
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt. May I make a
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: On the 19th of June, the Prosecution received a
5 notification from counsel for Mr. Boskoski that it was withholding
6 documents going to the credit of this witness for cross-examination, and
7 then the Prosecution was told the Defence will release the documents to be
8 used with the witness before cross-examination of the witness in question.
9 The Prosecution, at least to my knowledge, has not received any
10 documents or a list of documents to be used during the cross-examination
11 of this witness.
12 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I understand that both the list and
13 the documents have been released.
14 JUDGE PARKER: When?
15 MR. METTRAUX: Today, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Would it be on the way to my e-mail, perhaps?
18 MR. METTRAUX: I'm being told by my colleague on my left that the
19 documents have been sent to both Mr. Saxon's e-mail address and
20 Ms. Lakshmie's as well.
21 MR. SAXON: We don't have them yet, but we will be alert to our
22 in-boxes and hopefully we'll get them soon.
23 MR. METTRAUX: Apologies, Mr. Hutsch.
24 Q. If I can ask you to turn to paragraph 14 of your statement, that's
25 page 3, and there's a sentence I would like to read out to you. It starts
1 with the word: "Normally." Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You've been recorded as saying this: "Normally, I use one notebook
4 per day. I also do sketches and drawings of places I visit. The sketches
5 are put normally in my notebook or on normal blank paper. I also use
6 plastic layers which put over topographic map for marking events,
7 locations. This technique of map drawing I learned in the German army.
8 Normally, I do make my notes and drawings directly at the time of the
9 events or immediately after. It is my work conduct to keep these notes
10 archived. For the subject of this interview, I make reference to these
11 notebooks." Can you see that?
12 A. Yes, I see.
13 Q. And can you confirm that this is or this has been your practice as
14 a journalist?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Including in the year of 2001?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you've indicated, I believe, that your language assistants or
19 interpreters who accompanied you during your various visits would also use
20 a similar practice of keeping notes of their visits. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, more or less, they did.
22 Q. And on the days when you said you visited Ljuboten on the 12th and
23 14th of August of 2001, did these persons keep any such notes?
24 A. Yes, they did.
25 Q. You've indicated to me earlier that your sole occupation during
1 the past 12 years was a journalist, and I think you also explained to the
2 Prosecution that your previous occupation had been as an army captain or
3 your last position in the army had been as an army captain in the German
4 army. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you've indicated to me that aside from a short period of time
7 when you were unemployed, I understand, you worked most of that period as
8 a freelancer, so it means that you were paid by the article; is that
9 correct, that's what it means in practice, financially?
10 A. I'm not just paid by the article. With some customers, I had a
11 normal salary, for example, by time or by project.
12 Q. And perhaps you can tell this Trial Chamber what financial
13 arrangements you had with "Hamburger Adendblatt" in 2002?
14 A. Like I told you some minutes before, I was employed.
15 Q. And that was your only source of revenue of income during the year
16 2001; is that correct?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. And aside from the stint which you indicated from September,
19 mid-September of 2001, to mid-November of 2001, you haven't received any
20 money or income or other sort of gratification from any other source; is
21 that correct?
22 A. In the time that you mentioned, I spent as a reserve officer in
23 the army, and my payment was done by the "Hamburger Adendblatt" and it was
24 given to the "Hamburg Adendblatt" by a social office of the German
1 Q. Thank you for that, Mr. Hutsch. And aside from the money that you
2 received from the"Hamburger Adendblatt" and through the German army, as
3 you've just explained, you had no other source of income; is that correct?
4 A. There were, for example -- there is a group that is called "VG
5 Wort" in Germany, and that is an association of authors and of journalists
6 who are participating in a system where everybody who is copying something
7 in Germany has to pay for that, they give some money into this
8 association, and this association is giving that to the authors and
9 journalists. And I'm sure that I had, in this time as well, some money
10 from them.
11 Q. Any other source of revenue during 2001? Did you have any other
12 source of revenue during 2001?
13 A. I don't know what is "revenue during."
14 Q. Did you receive any money from any other source during the year
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ever work as a salesman, Mr. Hutsch?
18 A. What's a salesman?
19 Q. As a retailer. Were you in the business of selling things?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you ever sell any clothes, Mr. Hutsch?
22 A. Clothes?
23 Q. Clothing.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you sell any coffins? Those are wooden boxes to put dead
1 people in.
2 A. No.
3 Q. I think you've indicated to the Prosecutors that you went into a
4 number of conflict zones. Do you recall saying that? Conflict areas?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I think you've indicated that the first place in which you
7 went was Bosnia in 1995. Am I correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you've indicated to the Prosecution that you were, "covering
10 the conflict" at the time. Do you recall?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell which newspaper you were covering the conflict for at
13 the time?
14 A. In this time I was working for the German weekly magazine,
15 "Die Welt."
16 Q. And do you know how many newspapers you wrote for "Die Woche"
17 during that period?
18 A. That's the paper.
19 Q. Yes, I understand it's the paper. I was asking you how many
20 newspaper articles you published during your time in Bosnia,
21 approximately, Mr. Hutsch.
22 A. Approximately, 20. As well, in this time for the books, too, the
24 Q. And then you went on to another conflict zone; is that correct?
25 A. No, this was the time of my training as a journalist, because I
1 was trained as a journalist in 1995 and up to 1997.
2 Q. And where did you receive that training, Mr. Hutsch?
3 A. That's what I told you, in the "Buchsuda Abendblatt" and then "Die
5 Q. And where were you based during those two years?
6 A. I was based in Germany in Hamburg and in Buchsuda.
7 Q. Am I correct to understand that the next conflict zone, so to say,
8 where you went was Kosovo?
9 A. No, that's incorrect, because I did a trip to Chechnya in 1997.
10 Q. And did you work for a particular newspaper during that period?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you cover the Chechen conflict for anyone?
13 A. No, I just had a small stop there for two weeks.
14 Q. And what sort of occupation were you involved in during those two
15 weeks in Chechnya?
16 A. It was to find out what was going on in Chechnya and to see if it
17 was a place where I could work.
18 Q. Then what was the next conflict zone where you went after
19 Chechnya, Mr. Hutsch?
20 A. The next conflict zone was Kosovo.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the Defence counsel
22 and the witness to pause between questions and answers and try to avoid
23 overlapping. Thank you.
24 MR. METTRAUX:
25 Q. We've been warned again, Mr. Hutsch.
1 You indicated that you then went to Kosovo, and I understand that
2 in your testimony in the Milosevic trial you've indicated that you
3 published many and regular articles about that conflict. Is that correct?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. And can you tell what newspaper or media outlet you published for?
6 A. I've -- I was working for the German magazine "Der Stern" as well
7 as in the early case of this -- in the early phase of this conflict, for
8 the daily newspaper "Die Woche."
9 Q. And can you recall how many articles you would have written for
10 both "Der Stern" and "Die Woche"?
11 A. "Der Stern," I think it was all in all five, and "Die Woche," ten.
12 Q. And you also indicated in your evidence in the Milosevic case that
13 during your time in Kosovo, you met a large number of the leaders of the
14 KLA, is that correct, including Mr. Ahmeti and Mr. Ostreni?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you also met Mr. Ahmeti and Mr. Ostreni during your time in
17 Macedonia; is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Can you recall how many times you met Mr. Ostreni, in particular?
20 A. All in all?
21 Q. Yes, please.
22 A. Ninety, up to 100 times.
23 Q. And in all those contacts, they related to your work as a
24 journalist, sir?
25 A. No, that's incorrect.
1 Q. So which part of those 90 to 100 contacts related to your work as
2 a journalist?
3 A. Fifteen.
4 Q. What about the rest?
5 A. The rest was my mission during I've been in the German Embassy.
6 Q. So between 15 September to 15 November 2001, you met Mr. Ostreni
7 between 75 and 85 times; is that correct?
8 A. That's incorrect. Between the 21st of September and the 30th of
10 Q. I'm grateful for the correction. So during that period of
11 approximately two months, you met Mr. Ostreni between 75 and 85 times; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also met, I understand, Mr. Veliu; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. And you met him during your time in Macedonia; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And you had a good relationship with Mr. Veliu; is that correct?
19 A. That's not correct.
20 Q. Mr. Veliu, Fasi, was the uncle of Mr. Ahmeti; is that correct?
21 A. I think he is the uncle, yes.
22 Q. And do you remember meeting Mr. Veliu on the 30th of September of
23 2001 in a restaurant?
24 A. Yes, I think I met him there.
25 Q. And do you recall meeting him again three days later?
1 A. No, that's incorrect.
2 Q. Sir, you just indicated to me that I was incorrect in suggesting
3 that you had a good relationship with him. I'd like to put that to you.
4 Is it correct that he would refer to you as "Ambassador Hutsch"?
5 A. No, definitely not, because I was not an ambassador.
6 Q. I understand you were not an ambassador, but I'm putting to you,
7 sir, that he was referring to you as "Ambassador Hutsch." Is that
9 A. He never was calling me so.
10 Q. And you told me that you did not have -- when I asked you whether
11 you had a good relationship with him, I'm going to ask you this: Did you
12 make any promise to Mr. Veliu to assist him with personal matters?
13 A. That's incorrect.
14 Q. Did you promise to Mr. Veliu to assist with his son or his
16 A. No. There was one thing, but I don't know if it's connected with
17 Mr. Veliu. There was, in the end of November, a discussion with another
18 man about probably a nephew of Mr. Veliu with the last name Osmani.
19 Q. I'm going to stop you there, sir. The question I'm asking you is
20 about the end of September and relates to the brother of Mr. Veliu. Can
21 you recall an incident between yourself and the brother of Mr. Veliu?
22 A. No, I can't.
23 MR. METTRAUX: I would like to show the witness what is under tab
24 4 of the binder, and the document is 1D-281 with an ERN of 1D-002812.
25 Q. You will have the document appearing on your screen, Mr. Hutsch,
1 on your right.
2 MR. METTRAUX: It's tab 4, Your Honour, in the binder, in the
3 first binder.
4 Q. So as you can see, Mr. Hutsch, this is the book of memoirs from
5 Mr. Fasi Veliu. Can you see that?
6 A. Yes, I see.
7 Q. And if you look on the left side of this document, there's an
8 excerpt, the translation of one particular page of the book of Mr. Veliu
9 and, the date which it refers to is the 30th of September 2001 in Tetovo.
10 Can you see that?
11 A. Yes, I can see.
12 Q. In fact, can I ask you to direct your attention to the "ii"
13 saying: "The German ambassador's wish ..." Can you see that?
14 A. Yes, that's what he wrote.
15 Q. Well, I'm going to read to you what he wrote. It says this:
16 "The German ambassador [Realtime transcript read in error
17 "chancellor"], Franz Hutsch, and a companion was in the restaurant first
18 room. He expressed a wish to meet us. 'I want to shake your hand,' he
19 said. We invited him to our table. He came with his friend. We drank
20 together. We spoke of the amnesty. I explained the reason for my
21 imprisonment in Constance."
22 Then there's a quote, "'We have one aim,'" and the quote says,
23 "'For new generations to survive and advance,' I said, but they are
24 abducting our young people and the place they are held is unknown. They
25 ill treat them."
1 "'Do you have documented cases?'"
2 "'Yes,' I said. 'My brother abducted six weeks tomorrow.' "We
3 made a human gesture. We released all the prisoners of war. We promised
4 cooperation. We wish you success. I saw them off and said good-bye in
5 friendly fashion."
6 Does that refresh your memory, Mr. Hutsch?
7 A. It refreshes my memory as to what Mr. Veliu was pointing out
8 there, because it was the phase in the operation Essential Harvest where
9 we had to find out how both sides are willing to -- yeah, to live in
10 harmony together in the future. And like I pointed out some minutes
11 before when the Prosecutor asked me, the influence of Mr. Veliu was quite
12 high especially on Ali Ahmeti.
13 Q. I'm going to stop you there. I'm not asking you to tell us, at
14 this stage, what the role of Mr. Veliu is. Do you recall this particular
15 incident now?
16 A. I recall that we spoke about -- we spoke about the amnesty, and we
17 spoke about how he would like to hand over some documents for people who
18 are still in Macedonian prisons.
19 Q. And do you recall also that he asked you to assist with him
20 brother, don't you?
21 A. No. I don't know what he would like to have with his brother.
22 Q. Can we turn to the next page of that document, please. That's
24 MR. METTRAUX: Just a correction, Your Honour. At page 66, line
25 16, Mr. Hutsch is referred as "the German chancellor, Franz Hutsch." It
1 would be "the German ambassador," the chancellor being the Prime Minister
2 in Germany.
3 Q. Sir, can you see that second page of the document?
4 A. Yes, I can see.
5 Q. Mr. Veliu says the following: "I phoned the German ambassador,
6 Franz Hutsch, asked about my brother, Hoxhdi [phoen]. 'I know where he
7 is. He's in prison in Skopje,' he said. I'm trying to visit him. I
8 thanked him and promised the work meeting with Ali. I told Gzim, my
9 nephew, Falija [phoen], my sister, Nazmi [phoen]."
10 Can you see that?
11 A. Yes, I see.
12 Q. And do you recall that conversation with Mr. Veliu at the time?
13 A. Probably, there was a phone call. I think the most easiest way to
14 bring clearance to all these things is that we start from the 22nd of
15 September up to the 30th of November.
16 Q. I'm going to stop you there, Mr. Hutsch. For the time being,
17 we're going to stay on this document. We're going to go one step at a
18 time and see a lot of incidents and events together.
19 Can you recall this conversation with Mr. Veliu ?
20 A. No, I can't recall that.
21 Q. Can you recall promising assistance in relation to his imprisoned
23 A. I can recall that I promised to find out what was going on with
24 all in contact with the conflict, arrested Albanians.
25 Q. And do you recall a particular promise made to Mr. Veliu in
1 relation to his brother or not?
2 A. Not had particular in relation to his brother.
3 Q. And the work meeting which you promised with Alija, am I correct
4 to understand that it was Ali Ahmeti he was referring to?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it also correct, Mr. Hutsch, that as part of your work in
7 Kosovo during the Kosovo conflict, you were, in fact, embedded with the
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. And you reported, in effect, by their side. You attended, if I
11 may use that term, several conflict zones and operations together with the
12 members of the KLA; is that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. As part of your work as a journalist, Mr. Hutsch, you broke quite
15 a few big stories; is that correct?
16 A. I don't know what is a big story, but I did a lot of stories, yes.
17 Q. Well, there's a few of those stories which I would like to go
18 through with you, and the first one you mentioned during your testimony in
19 the Milosevic case, where you appeared as a Defence witness. You
20 remember, I'm sure, mentioning the fact that you said you had an interview
21 with Ratko Mladic. Do you recall saying that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And this interview which you said you had with Mr. Mladic took
24 place after the indictment of Mr. Mladic by this Tribunal; is that
1 A. I'm not aware when this Tribunal already opened that Mr. Mladic
2 was indicted. I don't know at this moment.
3 Q. Well, I'm going to assist you with that in a minute. But you
4 would agree that this was quite a big story, a big event in your
5 journalistic career, to interview Mr. Mladic?
6 A. No. That was not a big story, especially not in that time.
7 Q. Sir, do you know of any other journalist who, since the indictment
8 of Mr. Mladic, has claimed to have an interview with him?
9 A. So, first, I would like that you would provide me with the date
10 when the indictment took place, and --
11 Q. Well, I would ask you to answer the question, sir. I'm going to
12 give you all the documents you need in a minute. But could you tell me,
13 do you know of any other journalist who claimed to have interviewed
14 Mr. Mladic since 1996?
15 A. Before -- before 1996, there were a lot of journalists, and so my
16 interview was nothing special in this time.
17 Q. What about after 1996, sir? Do you know of any journalists who
18 claim to have interviewed Mr. Mladic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And can you tell this Chamber how you managed to interview
21 Mr. Mladic in 1996?
22 A. I -- I did the interview in 1995, in December 1995. It was
23 published, as far as I remember, in January 1996, but it was just normal
24 because Mr. Mladic was available in Bosnia and the Republic of Srpska at
25 this time.
1 Q. And so can you tell me how you managed to get in touch with
2 Mr. Mladic?
3 A. I got in touch over the interpreter that I worked with and over my
4 Serbian sources.
5 Q. And can you tell us who this interpreter is who put you in touch
6 with Mr. Mladic?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can you tell us who is that Serbian source you've just mentioned?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Is it correct, sir, that during the Milosevic trial you were asked
11 to state the newspaper in which you say you published this story; do you
12 recall that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you recall that the Prosecution pointed out that they had
15 been unable to trace that particular document; do you recall that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And are you able today to state what newspaper you have published
18 this story in?
19 A. One of them, and that's what I said in this time, was the "Neue
20 Osnabrucker Zeitung".
21 Q. That's correct. You were asked several times, and you said that
22 you believed that you published it in the"Neue Osnabrucker Zeitung". Is
23 that your evidence today, sir?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. METTRAUX: I would like the witness to be shown what is tab 8
1 of the Court binder, and it is 1D323 with an ERN of 1D003015. This is
2 under tab 7, I apologise, of the binder.
3 Q. Sir, what will appear to you on your computer screen is a letter
4 written by the Defence of Mr. Boskoski, directed to the"Neue Osnabrucker
5 Zeitung", the newspaper which you just mentioned as being the place where
6 you say you have published this piece.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I draw your attention to the second paragraph of that
9 document, starting with the words "As part." Can you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It says:
12 "As part of its investigation, the Defence received information
13 that Mr. Frans-Josef Hutsch might have published some articles in your
14 newspapers. The Defence hereby kindly asks you to inform us whether the
15 above-mentioned information is true or not."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. "Moreover, if the above-mentioned report is true, the Defence
19 hereby kindly ask you to provide us with the information in what capacity
20 did Mr. Hutsch publish those articles. Finally, the Defence wishes to
21 know whether Mr. Hutsch published any article in the newspaper during June
22 September 2001 period."
23 Can you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And on the next page there is the signature of counsel.
1 I'll now ask the registry to show what is under tab 6 of the Court
2 binder with an ERN 1D324 and with -- it's a number, I apologise, Exhibit
3 Number 1D324 with an ERN of 1D 003017.
4 Sir, that is the response that we received from the"Neue
5 Osnabrucker Zeitung", and it says:
6 "Dear Ms. Residovic, concerning your letter from 26 March 2007,
7 we found that Frans-Josef Hutsch didn't publish any article in the year
8 2001 in our newspaper. As freelancer, Mr. Hutsch published the following
9 two articles in our newspaper in 2003 and 2004."
10 And then it refers to the two pieces which you've published in the
12 Sir, is that correct that you never published that Mladic story in
13 the"Neue Osnabrucker Zeitung"?
14 A. First of all, and I think that should be part of the second letter
15 from the "Neue Osnabrucker Zeitung" that was sent to you, that I was not
16 really sure that I was giving this interview to this "Neue Osnabrucker
17 Zeitung", and in the time that you are asking, I was employed in the
18 "Hamburger Adendblatt" so there would be no chance for me to give them
19 any article.
20 Q. Is that your evidence, sir, now, that you published in another
21 newspaper other than the "Osnabruker Zeitung"; are you telling me that you
22 now recall that you published it somewhere else?
23 A. Probably, I did, yes.
24 Q. Can you tell me where you published it, sir?
25 A. I have to find out that in my archive.
1 Q. But, sir, you were asked the very same questions in the Milosevic
2 case, weren't you?
3 A. Yeah, and as far as I know in the Milosevic case, this matter was
4 already disclosed.
5 Q. Well, I'm going to come to that, sir. But this is what Mr. Nice
6 said in the Milosevic trial. This is the transcript at page 32997. For
7 Your Honours' assistance, this is under tab 5 of your binder.
8 Mr. Nice said this:
9 "I can just tell the Court and thus inform the witness that we
10 made every effort through the newspapers he identified yesterday," "He"
11 being you: "The to get a published version of the article and interview,
12 but were unsuccessful, and I think we even got the newspaper concerned to
13 search its archives, but we couldn't find it."
14 Do you recall Mr. Nice making that comment?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Well, perhaps I can assist you a bit more, sir. If the Registry
17 can bring up 1D284 with an ERN 1D00-2820. That's the English version.
18 And for your assistance, Mr. Hutsch, there is a German version at 1D2818.
19 Do you recognise this document as the one -- Your Honour, it's
20 under tab 8 of the binder. Do you recognise this document as the one you
21 produced in the Milosevic proceedings, Mr. Hutsch?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you will agree, I hope, that there's no marking, no sign, no
24 indication of any newspaper of any sort on this piece of paper?
25 A. That was all -- that was that what I found in the hurry of time,
1 this time, in my -- in my archive, and that was faxed to the Tribunal in
2 this time.
3 Q. But, sir, that was two and a half years ago, is that correct, the
4 Milosevic proceedings?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And you were also asked by the Defence, through the Prosecution,
7 to provide information in relation to that particular document, do you
8 remember, sometime this year, earlier this year?
9 A. I got the information from the -- from the Prosecution not to
10 provide that, it was just a question if I could provide, and after my
11 knowledge, and that should be part of my statement and my testimony in the
12 Milosevic case, that already this case was closed, and I can't see the
13 relation between the Milosevic case in the moment and this case in the
14 other one.
15 Q. Well, let me deal with the issue of relevance, perhaps. My
16 question was: Were you asked by the Prosecution, on behalf of the
17 Defence, to provide information as to the newspaper in which you claim you
18 published that story? Were you asked by the Prosecution that question?
19 Were you asked to provide that information?
20 A. I was asked to provide this information.
21 Q. And do you recall what you told the Prosecution?
22 A. I told the Prosecution that in this statement and my testimony,
23 this part has been disclosed, so it was -- it was finished.
24 Q. I don't understand your answer, sir. Perhaps it's my fault. But
25 what exactly are you saying you told the Prosecution when you were asked
1 to provide that information? Can you clarify this?
2 A. So Mr. Kay --
3 Q. I'm sorry. I'm asking you about Mr. Saxon, Mr. Hutsch. What did
4 Mr. Saxon ask you to provide him? What was your answer?
5 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreters ask you again to please
6 pause between questions and answers.
7 A. [Previous translation continues...] -- from the defence, and
8 there were -- not Mr. Saxon, it was Mr. Kuehnel who did this during a
9 telephone call, and I told him that already this Milosevic case or this
10 Mladic interview was already finished in this time.
11 MR. METTRAUX:
12 Q. Well, we'll come back to that question in a minute, sir. But do
13 you recall that you were asked already during the Milosevic proceedings to
14 provide clear information about your publications, and in particular in
15 relation to that article? Do you recall being asked that?
16 A. I were asked to that, yes, I was asked that.
17 Q. I'll just read to you the paragraph or the passage to you fair to
18 you, Mr. Hutsch. It's in the Milosevic transcript at page 33023, and it's
19 again in tab 5 of the Court binders, Your Honour. This is an exchange
20 between you and Mr. Kay, counsel for Slobodan Milosevic at the end of the
21 trial, at the end of your evidence. Mr. Kay said this:
22 "And I appreciate you will have to go into your records, but it
23 may be helpful to the Court if you were able to produce a schedule of
24 where this article was published and the dates. Is that possible for you
25 to do that?"
1 And that's what you answered:
2 "Well, all the articles that I have written and that have been
3 published, it's an agreement between the client and the author that these
4 publications are also returned in manuscript form, and it's stated where
5 it appeared or a copy of the newspaper, or the newspaper itself. I've
6 collected all of them, and all of the articles I've written and have been
7 published have been duly archived."
8 Then Mr. Kay said:
9 "If you could, over the period of the next week, say, if you have
10 an opportunity, would you be able to provide a table listing where and
11 when this was reported?"
12 Do you recall Mr. Kay asking you that?
13 A. Yes, I remember.
14 Q. And your answer, sir, was: "Yes, of course."
15 Do you recall?
16 A. I think so, yes.
17 Q. And do you remember providing a list of your publications to
18 Mr. Kay, as you had undertaken to do?
19 A. I think we have to ask Mr. Kay, because I was together with my
20 lawyer and I think I gave a list to my lawyer. But what I think is there
21 is some things in -- has been lost in the translation in the very
22 beginning of your quote.
23 Q. Well, there's nothing that was recorded that has been lost,
24 Mr. Hutsch, I can assure you.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON: I'm very sorry for the interruption, and I don't know
3 if, after the Chamber hears the Prosecution's comment, whether the Chamber
4 will wish the witness to leave the courtroom for a while, but the
5 Prosecution, at least, is confused as to the relevance of this line of
6 questioning related to this witness's testimony two and a half years ago
7 in the Milosevic trial, to the evidence that he has given in this case.
8 And I'm wondering whether my colleague could at least clarify what
9 the relevance is; and if my colleague prefers, perhaps the witness could
10 be excused while he does that.
11 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, Your Honour, I think it would be proper that
12 the witness be excused for a minute.
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will take a minute?
14 MR. METTRAUX: It might take two, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We're getting near the next break time. It might
16 be fairer to Mr. Hutsch for him to go, knowing he's got at least 35
17 minutes of break in which to relax.
18 MR. METTRAUX: Absolutely, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
20 Mr. Hutsch, would you be good enough now to treat this as the
21 break, and it will be some time, depending on how long this one or two
22 minutes lasts, it will be sometime a little before 1.00, I expect, that we
24 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thanks a lot.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, would you like me to address
2 Mr. Saxon's question at this stage?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Mettraux.
4 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, the position of the Defence --
5 and perhaps we should go into private session at this stage.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 2863-2865 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid when we adjourned I overlooked the fact
4 that we were still in private session. So we continue now. Mr. Mettraux.
5 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
6 Q. Sir, do you recall a moment ago I asked you a question about your
7 interview with Mr. Mladic, and my question was as follows:
8 "And can you tell this Chamber how you managed to interview
9 Mr. Mladic in 1996?"
10 Do you recall my question?
11 A. Yes, I recall your question.
12 Q. And your answer was:
13 "I did the interview in 1995, in December 1995."
14 Do you recall saying that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Well, I'd like, with the Court's assistance, again the Milosevic
17 transcript of your testimony at page 33011. This is tab 5, and it has an
18 ERN 1D00-3218.
19 And then, sir, in this page that you have in front of you, you can
20 see you're being asked a number of questions about this particular
21 interview, and then if I may delay your attention at line 19, you say
23 "That was 1996, I did the interview in 1996, and I would have
24 used it then."
25 Do you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So that's not 1995, that's 1996. So which version are you
3 adopting now, sir?
4 A. I think it was in 1995. I have to check that, if it becomes so
6 Q. And you recall, sir, that in any case, that it was after
7 Mr. Mladic had been indicted by the Tribunal; is that correct?
8 A. As far as I know. Meanwhile, Mr. Mladic was indicted in 23rd of
9 July in '95, and he was -- he wasn't any more in charge of the Chief of
10 Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in March 1996.
11 Q. Sir, the question is: Can you recall now whether the interview
12 took place after Mr. Mladic had been indicted? Can you recall that?
13 A. Yes, of course. He was indicted in July 1995.
14 Q. And do you agree that this alleged interview with Mr. Mladic took
15 place after this indictment; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If we can turn to tab 8 of the binder. That's 1D284, 1D 00-2820,
18 that's the English, and the German, Mr. Hutsch, is 1D00-2818.
19 So here there's a list of questions and Mladic, so I suppose the
20 questions were asked by you. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And Mr. Mladic is General Mladic; is that correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And was anyone else present during that meeting between you and
25 Mr. Mladic?
1 A. There was an interpreter present.
2 Q. Anyone else?
3 A. I think there were some advisers of Mr. Mladic present as well.
4 Q. And do you recall the names of those people?
5 A. We haven't been introduced.
6 Q. So they were just sitting around?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you recall where this meeting took place, Mr. Hutsch?
9 A. In the area of Sarajevo.
10 Q. I'd like to go into the interview that you recorded there, and it
11 says -- there's a question, and it starts with:
12 "General, what is life like as an alleged war criminal who many
13 would like to see before the Tribunal in The Hague and rather today than
15 So that's your opening question to Mr. Mladic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And he says:
18 "Why war criminal? Do you know more than I do?"
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So, sir, did you know at the time that he had been an indicted war
21 criminal by the Tribunal?
22 A. No, I don't know if I really was aware if -- that he was indicted
23 as a war criminal. The purpose of this question was that was clear that
24 after the -- the incidents in Srebrenica, Mr. Mladic -- it was known that
25 he was involved in these war criminals, and that was the reason why I was
1 asking the question in this way.
2 Q. Well, the answer of Mr. Mladic suggests that he wasn't aware that
3 he was being a war criminal, or at least regarded by one. He asked you,
4 "Do you know more than I do?" Does that suggest that he didn't know he
5 was an indicted war criminal?
6 A. I think he's arguing in the same way like both accused are
7 arguing, that he's doing a defence line, that he said, "I'm not a war
8 criminal at all; and if that is so, do you know more than me, because I am
10 Q. Sir, when you refer to both accused, do you refer to
11 Mr. Tarculovski and Mr. Boskoski?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And your suggestion is that they are doing a defence line; is that
14 your evidence, sir?
15 A. In this interview with Mladic, yes.
16 Q. No, no. I'm not talking about Mr. Mladic, sir. You said both
17 accused are arguing that he's doing a defence line. When you refer to
18 both accused, are you referring to Mr. Tarculovski and Mr. Boskoski?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And are you suggesting they are doing a defence line?
21 A. No, that they are accused war criminals who are indicted here.
22 Q. And what did you mean when you made a reference to both accused
24 A. That the answer, if I would have done an interview in the same
25 opening, I think I would have got the same answer from them.
1 Q. Thank you for that answer, Mr. Hutsch.
2 Then you go on to ask Mr. Mladic that: "For instance, because of
3 more than 7.000 dead Muslim in Srebrenica ..."
4 And Mr. Mladic is recorded as saying: "A number I'm absolutely
5 not familiar with."
6 Can you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then you record yourself as putting that question to
9 Mr. Mladic: "Another part is that the men were separated from women,
10 union protection forces watched as men were executed."
11 And then you recorded Mr. Mladic as saying: "That's nothing but a
12 cock-and-bull story."
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then further down this document, you say -- you record
16 yourself as putting a question for Mr. Mladic: "For such complex issues
17 like the attack on protected area, the support of President Milosevic --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would appreciate it if
19 Mr. Mettraux will slow down, please.
20 MR. METTRAUX: He will attempt his best.
21 Q. You said this: "For search complex issues, like the attack on
22 protected areas, the support of President Milosevic is certainly helpful."
23 And then you recorded an answer by Mladic: "Let me put it
24 differently. I don't take any orders from Milosevic. We are grownup
25 enough to solve our problems ourselves."
1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then the interview ended when Mr. Mladic is recorded as
4 saying: "It amuses me that you don't believe me, that you don't believe
5 we can take care of ourselves; but, at the same time, you think we
6 massacred 7.000 Muslims. How does that fit together? That's a
7 contradiction in terms."
8 Can you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that's what you say you obtained from Mr. Mladic --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- some time in 1995 or 1996; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I'd like to go back to the Milosevic -- your Milosevic testimony.
15 You remember that I asked you a number of questions about requests
16 that were made to you by the Prosecution on behalf of the Defence to
17 obtain information pertaining to that article; do you recall that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you said: "And it was not Mr. Saxon; it was Mr. Kuehnel
20 during this telephone call. And I told him that already this Milosevic
21 case or this Mladic interview was already finished in this time."
22 Do you recall telling me that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is that what you recall Mr. Kuehnel to tell you at that time?
25 A. Mr. Kuehnel was calling me in this moment, yes.
1 Q. And that's what you communicated to Mr. Kuehnel?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And can you recall if Mr. Kuehnel responded to that?
4 A. He just took the answer.
5 MR. METTRAUX: I'd like the witness to be shown 1D-243. It's ERN
7 JUDGE PARKER: Is this in the binders?
8 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, Your Honour. I'm trying to locate the
9 document in the binder.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps 89.
11 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to refer to a
12 slightly different document. I'm sorry, Your Honour. This is tab 9 of
13 the document. We're going to go to 89 in a minute, Your Honour. I
14 apologise. I apologise to you, Mr. Hutsch, as well.
15 Q. This is Rule 65 ter 236, with 1D00-2655. It's 1D-236. I
16 apologise to the Registry, 1D-236, with 1D00-2655, and it's tab 9, Your
17 Honour, of the binder?
18 We seem to have a problem with the document on the screen. It
19 should be 1D-236, 1D-2655. Thank you. That is the right document.
20 Q. I apologise, Mr. Hutsch, for the delay. This, again, is a letter
21 from the Defence of Mr. Boskoski, this time to the Office of the
22 Prosecutor. As you can see, it's dated 30 March 1997.
23 MR. METTRAUX: If I can ask the Registry to go directly to page 4
24 of that document, it's 1D00-2658.
25 Q. Can I ask you to focus on paragraph 24, Mr. Hutsch, if you can.
1 And if the -- yes. Thank you.
2 On the 30th of March, we ask the following of the Prosecution:
3 "In the transcript of his evidence in the Milosevic case, dated 12
4 October 2004, Mr. Hutsch says that he published an interview which he had
5 with General Ratko Mladic in 1996, transcript 32964.
6 "The Defence would like to receive a copy of that article or
7 information allowing the Defence to locate it; title of the article, date
8 of publication, name of newspaper.
9 "The Defence hereby notes that the plain text of the interview you
10 disclosed as Rule 68 material, apart from not constituting Rule 68
11 material, is not sufficient for the purpose of the Defence investigation."
12 MR. METTRAUX: Then if I can ask that the Registry turn to what is
13 1D-238, with an ERN number 1D00-2661.
14 Q. Sir, that's a letter from the Prosecution, the OTP, written by or
15 signed by Mr. Saxon, and it's addressed to Ms. Residovic. And it's in
16 response to two letters of the Defence of 14 of April, 2007; and then if
17 you look at the first paragraph, it also responds to our letter of the
18 30th of March.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Is it in the --
20 MR. METTRAUX: Tab 10, Your Honour, I apologise, tab 10 of the
22 Q. And if I can ask you again to focus on number 24, the same number
23 as previously, in this letter. It says:
24 "Mr. Hutsch suggests that you speak with Attorney Stephen Kaye
25 for more information."
1 So that's the response you gave to the Prosecution in response to
2 our request to obtain more information pertaining to this particular
3 article, isn't it?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 MR. METTRAUX: Well, perhaps, Your Honour, if I can move into
6 private session for a minute.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
8 [Private session]
11 Page 2875 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
10 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.
11 Q. Then there's a second point, Mr. Hutsch, which you can see in the
12 letter. It says this:
13 "During the Milosevic proceedings, Mr. Hutsch undertook to
14 provide you with a list of his publications as a journalist. The Defence
15 would be most grateful to receive such a list from you, if one has indeed
16 been provided to you, or with an indication to the effect that none has
17 been provided to you."
18 And then there's other matters.
19 If I may ask the Registry to go back to the first page of that
20 document and focus on the first section of that document this time.
21 Are you able to read the text, Mr. Hutsch?
22 A. Yes, I am.
23 Q. This is the response from Mr. Kaye, and it's dated 25th April
24 2007: "Subject, Prosecutor versus Boskoski." It says:
25 "Dear Mr. Mettraux, in response to your e-mail letter, one, I did
1 see an article produced by Mr. Hutsch of an interview with or statements
2 made by General Mladic which were recorded by him."
3 I do not have that document now. Could I tell you -- or where to
4 find it, although I have a recollection that at the end of his testimony I
5 returned all papers, not exhibits, to Mr. Hutsch. That would be my normal
7 I cannot recall whether it would be a newspaper or magazine or
8 on the internet, so I cannot define the source. At the time, this was not
9 of importance to me, but the fact of his conversation with Mladic was
10 important. The length of the piece was not long, one, one and a half
11 pages or columns. I do not have a list of journals in which Mr. Hutsch
12 published articles. I was concerned with whether he had seen or heard
13 rather than anything he might have written."
14 Is it correct, sir, that you never gave this list, a list of
15 publications, to Mr. Kaye as you had undertaken?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. And is that correct also that you never provided him with any
18 information about the whereabouts of this alleged interview with
19 Mr. Mladic?
20 A. Not after I went -- I left here and even not in the trial.
21 Q. So is the situation this, sir, that no one, not even yourself, are
22 able to say where a world-exclusive interview with Mr. Mladic was
24 A. It's first not a world-exclusive interview with Mr. Mladic, and,
25 second, it was not an important one. So it was an interview, and in the
1 moment I'm not able to provide you with any further information.
2 Q. So let's start first with your first comment. It's not a
3 world-exclusive interview. Can you now recall anyone, any journalist,
4 claiming to have interviewed Mr. Mladic after his indictment or in 1996?
5 A. No, I didn't research in this in the moment.
6 Q. Thank you. Sir, there's another story which I would like to now
7 review with you which also relates to your testimony in the Milosevic
8 case. Can you recall writing or contributing, rather, to a piece about
9 the alleged involvement of the German Secret Services into organising
10 riots in Kosovo?
11 A. Yes, I am.
12 Q. And you will agree, I hope, that this was a big story.
13 A. This was a good story, yes.
14 Q. And this was a story that you stand by to this day, sir; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But it's a story that was criticised very heavily in some
18 newspapers in Germany; is that correct?
19 A. In one newspaper.
20 Q. Well, would you agree that it may have been more than one?
21 A. It was criticised in one.
22 Q. We're going to come back to that. But is that correct that the
23 newspaper which you are thinking about right now made a pretty serious
24 attack not only on the quality of your reporting but on your honesty and
25 integrity as a journalist?
1 A. No, they didn't do that. I didn't see a serious attack against
3 Q. Is that your evidence, sir, that you didn't feel a personal attack
4 from this newspaper; is that your evidence?
5 A. I felt attacked by this newspaper, but for that you have to see
6 the background.
7 Q. Well, my question is, sir: Did that newspaper suggest in not so
8 many words that you had fabricated part of your story?
9 A. That's wrong.
10 Q. Isn't that what the newspaper suggested?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And the newspaper which you have in mind, is it the "Frankfurter
13 Allgemaine Zeitung"?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. And you would agree, I hope, that it's, perhaps, one of the most
16 reputable or, perhaps, even the most reputable newspaper in Germany?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. And you would also agree, I hope, that you were criticised, among
19 other things - if "criticised" is the right word - for your famous use of
20 what they said, "sources"; is that correct?
21 A. That's something the author did, yes.
22 Q. And the line of his story was essentially to say that you claim to
23 have had access to information that no one else ever had; is that correct?
24 A. That's one of the part he wrote, yes.
25 Q. Well, I would like to show you that article, sir.
1 MR. METTRAUX: It's at tab 11 of Your Honours' binder. It's
2 1D-280 with an ERN of 1D00-2802.
3 Q. And, Mr. Hutsch, there is a German version of it at 1D00-2799.
4 Just as a general question, Mr. Hutsch: Do you agree that this
5 newspaper essentially touched upon two categories of activities of yours;
6 one was these reports about riots in Kosovo, and the other one was your
7 testimony in the Milosevic case. Am I correct?
8 A. Yeah, you are quite.
9 Q. So if you look at the document there, you can see it comes from
10 the archives of the ""Frankfurter Allgemaine Zeitung"," and the date of
11 the page is 3rd of June 2005. Do you see that? It's at the top of either
12 of the documents.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the date --
14 MR. METTRAUX: 3rd of May, I apologise. Thank you to Mr. Saxon.
15 I apologise, Mr. Hutsch. It is not relevant, the date, but I apologise
16 for thinking that the 5th was June or July.
17 Q. Do you see the dates in the top right corner in German?
18 A. Yes, I see.
19 Q. And there's a title in the English version.
20 MR. METTRAUX: And I would like to indicate to the Trial Chamber
21 that at this stage this is only an unofficial translation, the documents
22 haven't been -- well, we're awaiting the official translation from CLSS.
23 Q. There's a title, sir, of the piece, which is somewhat clumsily
24 interpreted that: "In doubt for the defendant Milosevic, the truth about
25 the Racak massacre, why a dubious report of the ZDF Horta [phoen] Journal
1 ^^^ Anchorage, the Serbian appealers."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then I would ask you to go immediately to the second full
5 paragraph of this article, which was written, am I correct, by
6 Mr. Matthias Rub; is that correct?
7 A. Matthias Rub, yes.
8 Q. And Mr. Rub is a journalist with the FAZ, "Frankfurter Allgemaine
9 Zeitung"; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, he is.
11 Q. So if you turn to the second paragraph, which starts with the
12 words, in English in any case, "Two authors of the Horta Journal." Can
13 you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It says: "Two authors of the Horta Journal, the editor, Hans
16 Ulrich Gak [phoen], and the free journalist, Frans-Josef Hutsch, in the
17 broadcast reports on the 18th and 20th of November, 2004, claimed nothing
18 less but to have found the wire-puller of the riot's programmes."
19 Do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it says: "Sumadin Cesare [phoen] from Prizren made a
22 confession in front of Gak's and Hutsch's running cameras, which must have
23 made the investigation reporters very happy. Cesare was a high-sounding
24 described as 'one of the most influential men in Kosovo', which was, to
25 put it mildly, not a very good assessment of the man still judged as a
1 showoff. Cesare, a former regional commander of the Kosovo Albanian
2 underground army, UCK, was on top of that, or so say Gak and Hutsch, a
3 paid informant of the BND, Bundis Nachtrichter Dins [phoen]." That's the
4 German Secret Services, isn't it?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. "The ZDF claims to have found out that Cesare gave the green light
7 to the long-planned riots on Serbian minorities on the phone, in a
8 telephone conversation of March 4th, 2004, which was listened in on by the
9 BND. He used code words like 'hot party' and 'a bold atmosphere'."
10 Can you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then I'll ask you to read the next paragraph. It says: "The
13 control collegiums of the German Parliament decided, in the first round of
14 a secret session on November 24th, 2004, that there was nothing that the
15 BND could be blamed for. This was said by the chairman of the secret
16 committee, Hartmut Buttner. The ZDF stays with their description and
17 don't have any doubt in the credibility of their colleague Hutsch. The
18 story got lost in the sand of sensation journalist in the meantime, and
19 that's where it belongs."
20 Can you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you recall this original finding of the of the Parliamentary
23 Commission in Germany which basically expressed the view that there was
24 nothing to that; do you recall that?
25 A. I recall that it said that it was November 2004.
1 Q. Then I'll ask you to turn to the next page, Mr. Hutsch. It says:
2 "In ZDF, Gak and Hutsch caught an alleged 'NATO dossier' from May 17th,
3 2002, it was not said by whom it was made and for whom, in which it was
4 claimed 'the Islamic' Cesare has made connections to the Lebanese terror
5 group Hezbollah and to the terror network al-Qaeda of Osama Bin Laden, and
6 has kept them up until the beginning of the disturbances. A powerful
7 presentation for a computer, which in principle can be made by anyone."
8 Do you recall Mr. Hutsch, saying that?
9 A. Yeah, it's what I read.
10 Q. And do you recall also relying on a famous NATO dossier?
11 A. We had a number of dossiers there, and there was one from the 17th
12 of May, 2002.
13 Q. And do you recall where you received that dossier from?
14 A. Yeah. I know where it comes from, yes.
15 Q. And where does it come from?
16 A. That you have to ask my colleague, Hans Ulrich Gak and my
17 colleague Jaspas [phoen], because what this article doesn't show is that
18 it was a network project from -- all in all for journalists.
19 Q. Okay. We're going to come to that in a bit of time. But are you
20 saying, sir, that you have no idea where this dossier comes from of the
21 17th of --
22 A. I have an idea, but I wouldn't do everything to open a source from
23 one of my colleagues.
24 Q. Well, can you tell this Chamber where you got that dossier from,
1 A. I told you that two of my colleagues got this dossier and that it
2 was given to Herb Jaspas and to Mr. Hans Ulrich Gak.
3 Q. And do you know where Mr. Jaspas and Mr. Gak got this document
4 from, sir?
5 A. I repeat: I won't any source in front of the Chamber that is from
6 my colleagues. You will have to ask my colleagues.
7 MR. METTRAUX: Perhaps, Your Honour, we'll go into a private
8 session for a minute.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
10 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
23 MR. METTRAUX:
24 Q. So if I can ask you to go to the next paragraph of Mr. Rub's
25 article, it says this:
1 "But if Cesare really was connected to Hezbollah and al-Qaeda,
2 why in the world would he reveal this to two German journalists who sold
3 their reports right away to ZDF and the Swiss Boulevard paper "Sonntags
4 Blicke. [phoen]"
5 Can you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then there's a paragraph which relates to you, the next one:
8 Mr. Rub says this: "Useful information about the free
9 journalist, Frans-Josef Hutsch, born in Aachen in 1963 might be that he
10 was the fourth witness of the Defence in the process against the former
11 Serbian and Yugoslav president, Slobodan Milosevic, at the International
12 War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague on October 12 and 13, 2004".
13 Can you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then he says:
16 "Before he decided career on a career in journalism, Hutsch was a
17 career soldier in the German army for more than 14 years. According to
18 his testimony, he retired with the rank of a major."
19 Can you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Isn't it the case, sir, that two days ago you told this Chamber
22 and you told the Prosecution that you retired in the rank of captain in
23 the army?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. And what rank was it that you retired, major or captain?
1 A. Captain.
2 Q. So this is wrong?
3 A. This is wrong.
4 Q. And if you had told the Trial Chamber in the Milosevic case that
5 you retired as a major, that would also be wrong?
6 A. I was asked which was the next rank that I would get, and after
7 captain the rank of major comes. That's already what I was discussing
8 with the Prosecution in the preparing of today.
9 Q. You were not asked what the next rank was, sir. You were asked
10 what the rank was when you left the army. I'll read the transcript to
11 you. This is page 32904 of the Milosevic trial transcript of 12 October
12 2004. And the question asked by Mr. Kaye was:
13 "Q. When you left the German army, what was your rank that you
14 left at?
15 "A. I left the military as major, and I'm now in reserve."
16 So you said to the Trial Chamber that you left as a major, is that
17 right, to the Milosevic Chamber?
18 A. That's wrong. I was asked in German what would be the next rank,
19 and I asked -- I answered in German that my next rank will be a major.
20 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON: I'm very sorry to interrupt, but I think a fact needs
23 to be clarified here.
24 During this witness's testimony during the trial of
25 Slobodan Milosevic, this witness did not testify in English. This witness
1 testified in German, his first language. An interpreter was used then to
2 interpret this witness's words then into English, and then there was
3 further translation, et cetera, et cetera. And that's, I believe, in the
4 record, Your Honour.
5 MR. METTRAUX: Well, I believe this is a point that the witness
6 should make if he feels he has to do it, not the Prosecution.
7 Q. Sir, can you say in German what's the word for captain?
8 A. Hauptman.
9 Q. That's correct. And for Major, can you tell us what the word for
11 A. Major.
12 Q. That's right. Thank you very much. If we can turn now to the next
13 paragraph of that statement, but perhaps we'll leave this question of your
14 rank, sir. What rank did you have between September 2001 and
15 November 2001 when you worked as an officer for the army or for the
16 embassy in Macedonia; do you recall?
17 A. Yeah, captain, because all these documents I have here with me,
18 they show that.
19 Q. So any suggestion that at the time you were an uber lieutenant or
20 a first lieutenant would be wrong; is that correct?
21 A. It is.
22 Q. Thank you. If we could go back to the transcript or the article
23 of Mr. Rub, still the second page of it, I'd like to read the paragraph
24 that starts with: "Whoever ..." Can you see that? This is 1D002803.
25 It's 1D280. Your Honour, it's under tab 11 of the binder, page 2.
1 Sir, can you see the paragraph starting with the words in
2 English: "Whoever run into the colleague in the Balkans"; can you see
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I'll read the paragraph to you:
6 "Whoever run into the colleague in the Balkans," and it's
7 referring to you, "where he reported for papers like the"Hamburger
8 Adendblatt" can most of all remember that Hutsch does not show modesty in
9 his reports of military and secret things. Apparently the man has been so
10 lucky to see and hear everything that the historical actors usually try to
11 hide from the public and from other journalists. Hutsch seems to be
12 flooded with secret information from all war parties, and one was supposed
13 to believe that the sources which gave out the information didn't talk for
14 any other reasons but because the world should finally hear the truth."
15 Can you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Then Mr. Rub continues:
18 "It should be noted that all the actual or made-up secret
19 information always come to journalists exactly that, when the sources are
20 aiming at something. A reporter should be suspicious when the usually
21 silent people start talking."
22 Then I'll turn your attention to the next paragraph of that
23 article of Mr. Rub.
24 "In the Milosevic process, Hutsch mostly talked about the time
25 between September 1998 and December 1999, in which he reported about the
1 UCK. He said he obtained exact knowledge about the organisation of the
2 UCK, about their war tactics, their weapons, and their supply lines from
3 Albania and Macedonia. The essence of his testimony in The Hague is that
4 the war of the UCK was a made-up war. The UCK seems to have a really good
5 PR adviser.
6 There were situations where refugees were kept in the woods until
7 the Western journalists came. There were situations when civilians in the
8 village were kept throughout the attacks of the Serbian police, the
9 civilians were prevented from to leaving the villages, the UCK have used
10 their people as human protection shields.
11 Do you recall in the Milosevic case, Mr. Hutsch, making the
12 suggestion that the UCK would stage crime scenes and that they a good PR
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then it says this:
16 "Hutsch does not mention the massacre of the families of UCK
17 founders Ahmeti by the Serbian soldiers. They were happening from
18 February to March 1998 in the region Drenica and there was 59 deaths in
19 one and 58 in the other. Maybe because he was not in Kosovo at the time.
20 More likely the Serbian officer had lost a patient for the first time at
21 the Christmas intervention."
22 Then there's another passage which talks about evidence which you
23 describe in relation to the Racak incident, and then there's this which is
24 said by Mr. Rub:
25 "It cannot be surprising that Hutsch became a star in some
1 Serbian media after such testimonies in The Hague. Because of this, he
2 continues with the 'conspiracy theory' which is popular in Serbia and also
3 more and more popular in Germany. The war about Kosovo was just a
4 rehearsal for the attack in Iraq. The invasion of Iraq is exactly the
5 same as the bombing of Yugoslavia to the smallest detail."
6 Do you recall making that statement to a Serbian journalist,
7 Mr. Hutsch, that in effect your view and your position was that the
8 operation by NATO in Kosovo was merely a warmup exercise for the attack on
10 A. That was the opinion of General Heinz Loquai which was quoted by
11 me in this interview.
12 Q. And you agree that's what you told this journalist as your
13 personal view; is that correct?
14 A. Not as my personal view, as a quote from Heinz Loquai.
15 Q. But you indicated to that journalist, isn't that correct, that you
16 believed this position to be correct?
17 A. There's some good reasons to believe that, yes.
18 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you. If we turn --
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux, I'm sorry, but we have run out of
20 time by --
21 MR. METTRAUX: I apologise.
22 JUDGE PARKER: -- three minutes, and we must now adjourn and
23 resume tomorrow at 9.00.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47
25 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, June 29,
1 2007, at 9.00 a.m.