Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3305

1 Friday, 6 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

7 May I remind you, sir, of the affirmation you made at the

8 beginning of your evidence, which still applies.

9 Ms. Motoike.

10 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, good morning.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examination by Ms. Motoike: [Continued]

14 Q. Mr. Jurisic, yesterday we left off discussing some advisement that

15 you had been received prior to being shown some photo boards during an

16 interview with the Office of the Prosecutor in November of 2004.

17 Do you recall also being advised at that time not to identify more

18 than one possible suspect on one photo board?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And do you also recall being advised at that time that a possible

21 suspect might not at all be on one or both of those photo boards?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you also recall at that time being advised that you should

24 make a positive identification only if you're certain that you recognise

25 the person?

Page 3306

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do you recall, after these advisements were given, identifying

3 a person in one of those photo boards as being a person that you saw at

4 the Children's Rest House on 11 August 2001?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could please show the witness 65 ter 177.1,

7 which is tab 8 of the binders, and perhaps could we have the witness's

8 binder from yesterday, please. Thank you.

9 Q. And, Mr. Jurisic, what's being displayed before you is a photo

10 board. Is this one of the two photo boards that you were shown during

11 your interview on 9 November 2004?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And if I could draw your attention to some handwritten notes

14 below. Do you see those?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And are those notes in your handwriting?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And there's also a signature in the lower right-hand corner with a

19 date of 9/11/04. Is that your signature?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you see the handwritten circle around the photo depicted at

22 number 9? What is that hand -- what does that circle indicate?

23 A. Is this a question?

24 Q. I'm sorry, it was poorly phrased. Can I ask you, is the circle

25 that's drawn around number 9, is that the person that you identified at

Page 3307

1 that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the handwritten notes are in Macedonian. Could you please

4 read those for translation purposes?

5 A. "I believe I have seen this person in the Children's Rest House as

6 a policeman, but I'm not sure."

7 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we tender this, please?

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P368, Your Honours.


11 Q. And, Mr. Jurisic, going back to the 11th of August, 2001, and the

12 policemen, did they spend the night at the Children's Rest House?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did you see these policemen the next day, which would be

15 Sunday, 12 August 2001?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you have a telephone issued to you during this time period,

18 that is, the weekend of 10 August to 12 August 2001?

19 A. I had my own telephone. I don't understand the question.

20 Q. I guess my question was: Did you have a phone at that time?

21 A. Yes, I did have a telephone, my own telephone.

22 Q. And was that a mobile telephone that you also carried with you to

23 your duty stations or command posts?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall if you had any telephone conversations with any of

Page 3308

1 these policemen that you had seen at the Children's Rest House on Sunday,

2 12 August 2001?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you recall if you were ever given a phone number of anyone from

5 this group of police?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you recall providing a statement to the Office of the

8 Prosecutor on the 16th of November, 2004?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would looking at that particular statement refresh your

11 recollection as to whether or not you were given a telephone number of

12 anyone from this group of police?

13 A. Should I look into the binder?

14 Q. Well, I'm simply asking you, Mr. Jurisic, if looking at prior

15 statements that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor would help you

16 remember as to whether or not you had any -- had received any phone

17 numbers or given any phone numbers to these police officers.

18 A. I understand. Your Honours, if I can make myself more precise, at

19 this time when I arrived I know that I exchanged my telephone number with

20 the leader of that group of police officers, as a normal thing. On other

21 occasions when we were there, we exchanged telephone numbers.

22 Q. Why would such an exchange have been done?

23 A. In many situations, when the army acted together with the police

24 at any place, it happened that regular ties do not -- are not

25 functioning; that is to say, if anything needed to be done in any sense of

Page 3309

1 the word, that we were able to hear each other. The same applies to all

2 my soldiers or superiors. They had my number, my telephone number, so

3 that we can talk to each other in case of need, because the connections

4 which were running at that time were not ideal.

5 Q. Do you recall what your telephone number was during this

6 particular time period?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you please tell us what that phone number was?

9 A. 070217088 [as interpreted].

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the number?


12 Q. Mr. --

13 A. What is shown on the screen is not correct. The number is

14 070217008.

15 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could please show the witness 65 ter 1006,

16 please. It's located at tab 9 of the binders.

17 The first page in English should actually be almost what appears

18 to be a blank page with just a number on it, which would match the

19 Macedonian page that's being displayed right now. Thank you.

20 Q. Mr. Jurisic, drawing your attention to the document that's

21 displayed before you, do you see the -- on the right there, there's a

22 number, 070279417, and then right below that it says: "Outgoing calls, 1,

23 2, 3." Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And if we could turn, please, to page 2 of the English and the

Page 3310

1 Macedonian.

2 Is it possible to enlarge the Macedonian version so the witness

3 could see that more clearly? I'd really like to just focus in, actually,

4 on the top headers.

5 Mr. Jurisic, you also have a hard copy in case the screen is a

6 little difficult to read. What I'm going to ask is: Along the top

7 columns of this page, it indicates, from the left going forward, "Caller",

8 and then it has some number, the same number that we saw on the first

9 page, and then the next column says "Called," and then the next column

10 says "Date," and the next is "Sec," which presumably refers to seconds.

11 The next says "Time," "Name," "Address of the caller," "Name of the

12 called," "Last name of the called," "ID number," "Address of the called,"

13 and "Place." Do you see those?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If we could please turn to page 8 of the English, which is also

16 page 8 of the Macedonian.

17 I'd actually like to focus in on line 15 on this particular page.

18 It is around the middle part of the page in Macedonian.

19 Mr. Jurisic, do you see there, it's the 15th line, but there's a

20 number there, "70279417" on the left, and then there's a number,

21 "70217008", and it's around the middle of that page. Do you see that?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And is that your phone number that you've indicated?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And following the column descriptions that we went over earlier,

Page 3311

1 then, the caller would be 702-79417, and then the called person would be

2 your number; is that correct?

3 A. I did not quite get that.

4 Q. Do you see how I explained the columns that were described

5 earlier?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This left column, then, would be the caller, and then the column

8 that indicates your number would then be the called person, according to

9 this document; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then immediately to the right, it says --

12 MS. MOTOIKE: I'm sorry, should I -- I need to clarify something?

13 JUDGE THELIN: Page 7 in English.

14 MS. MOTOIKE: Oh, yes, for e-court purposes. I apologise, Your

15 Honours.

16 Q. And then immediately to the right, it says -- the right of your

17 number, it says "8/11/01" for August 11, 2001. Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So that would indicate the date that you received the call, and

20 then according to the next column, it's the length of time for the call,

21 and then the next column to the right there, it says"10.30.22" would be

22 the time of the call. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then following over, it says, in the name, "Mario Jurisic."

25 Do you see that?

Page 3312

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So it indicates here, according to this phone record, that you

3 received a call from this number, 702-79417, on August 11th, 2001, and you

4 were on duty on that day; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you remember what this call pertained to?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you recall if this number, which indicates the caller number on

9 the far left, do you recall if this is the number that belonged to one of

10 the policemen that you say you exchanged numbers with on Saturday, 11

11 August 2001?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Are you able to recall anything about this particular conversation

14 that you had on that day at that time?

15 A. No.

16 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could please turn to page 10 of the -- well,

17 it would be page 9 of the hard copies, page 10 in e-court of the English,

18 and page 10 in e-court for the Macedonian.

19 Q. And, Mr. Jurisic -- if we could, perhaps, expand the Macedonian

20 version so the witness could see -- I'll draw your attention to line

21 number 10, which is about the upper half of the document, and you see

22 again the same thing applies, in that there's a number, "70279417" that

23 corresponds to the caller, and then there is again your number,"70217008".

24 Do you see that, Mr. Jurisic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3313

1 Q. And again following in line with the columns, it indicates that

2 you received a call on August 12th, 2001, and the time was about 43

3 seconds. The time of the call was 3.47.14, and then it follows over to

4 the name, your name. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And again I guess I'd ask you the same question. Do you recall

7 any conversations that you had on the 12th of August at this time with

8 this particular caller?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And were you on -- this time indicates -- it says "3.47.14". We

11 don't have an" a.m." or "p.m." Were you on duty, though, at 3.47 p.m. on

12 August 12, 2001?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And how about 3.47 a.m. on that day, were you on duty at that

15 time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. On August 11th, 2001, did you spend the night at the Children's

18 Rest House?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And presumably, then, did you also have your cellphone with you

21 the night of August 11th, 2001, into the morning and day of August 12th,

22 2001?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we please mark this for

25 identification?

Page 3314

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P369, MFI, Your Honours.


4 Q. Now, you've indicated that you do not recall having these

5 particular phone conversations. Well, let me ask you this generally: Do

6 you recall the substance of your phone conversations with any police

7 officers that you had during this time period, which would be 11 August,

8 12 August, 2001?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you recall having a conversation with myself and another

11 colleague on 3 July 2007?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would it refresh your recollection as to the substance of these

14 conversations with the police officers that you had during this time

15 period if you were able to review or hear what you indicated to us at that

16 time?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. MOTOIKE: And I apologise to my learned colleagues and the

19 Chamber. We would have to distribute the proofing notes that were taken

20 on July 3rd via hard copy because they have not been uploaded on e-court.

21 So we have copies to distribute, with the assistance of the usher.

22 Q. And, Mr. Jurisic, I apologise. These proofing notes were taken in

23 the English language and then read back to you in Macedonian. Do you

24 remember that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3315

1 Q. And if I could draw your attention to paragraph 51, I will read to

2 you what is indicated to see whether or not this might assist you in

3 refreshing your recollection.

4 In the middle part of paragraph 51, there's a sentence that

5 begins:

6 "As for the reference to phone conversations regarding targets,

7 again I state that I do not remember having these phone conversations with

8 any of these persons referred to in this paragraph. Also, the person

9 identified in the photo board was not a leader, as I explained earlier

10 today. The paragraph also refers to a second person which was in contact

11 with me, but I do not remember being in contact with a second person.

12 Also, I wish to clarify the reference to 'these people' in the third

13 sentence from the bottom of the paragraph. 'These people' are the police.

14 As for the second-to-last sentence in this paragraph, I wish to state

15 that I do not remember anyone from the police contacting me on the phone."

16 And in order to give context to this particular clarification that

17 you provided on the 3rd of July, this is in reference to paragraph 14 of a

18 statement that you remember making from the 16th of November, 2004.

19 If we could please display that particular statement as well so

20 that we get a full context and perhaps Mr. Jurisic's recollection could be

21 refreshed. That statement is located at ERN N000-8674 through 8677,

22 Macedonian version the same.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objections, Your Honour. In this

25 way of examination of the witness, he had already thoroughly explained

Page 3316

1 everything which he remembers, and in the proofing notes he has given an

2 explanation of the course of his conversations. I don't see the basis

3 that he be shown a statement that he had given earlier, thank you, in

4 order to refresh his memory.

5 JUDGE PARKER: What are you about, Ms. Motoike?

6 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, there is -- this particular proofing

7 note was displayed before the witness because of context. He indicated the

8 time of proofing that he did not remember, but there's another statement

9 he also makes, so I'm trying to refresh his memory with all the available

10 statements we have with respect to this particular question that I'm

11 putting to the witness.

12 JUDGE PARKER: What are you having displayed now?

13 MS. MOTOIKE: The statement that the witness provided from 16th

14 November 2004.

15 JUDGE PARKER: And the proofing note is referring to that?

16 MS. MOTOIKE: Is referring to that, Your Honour. I was just

17 trying to present the full context so that the witness perhaps could have

18 his memory refreshed based on everything he said about this particular

19 question that I'm putting to him.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Please continue.

21 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Jurisic, drawing your attention to, I believe it's

23 paragraph 14 of the statement dated 16 November 2004, it is page 3 of the

24 statement, page 4 of the Macedonian.

25 A. My apologies, but I cannot find the page.

Page 3317

1 Q. My apologies to you, Mr. Jurisic. We're actually displaying these

2 statements via e-court on the screen.

3 I'm drawing your attention to paragraph 14.

4 Is there perhaps a way we could enlarge paragraph 14 in the

5 Macedonian version, at least, for the witness? Thank you.

6 Could we please also see the English? We don't have hard copies

7 of the English. Thank you.

8 I'm drawing your attention, Mr. Jurisic, to the middle of that

9 paragraph. There's a sentence that starts with: "Like ...," and it says:

10 "Like I said above, it is possible that in the above-mentioned

11 phone conversations, these targets were also discussed to me by the police

12 officers. Being asked, I can't remember exactly with whom I have had

13 spoken about these targets over the phone. Like I said, the person I have

14 identified in the photo line was a sort of leader. The second person

15 which was in contact with me must have been a sort of deputy to first one.

16 I haven't been in contact with ..."

17 And if we could turn the page in the English, please. It says:

18 " ... With these people."

19 And during proofing you clarified that "these people" were the

20 police:

21 " ... Before this event, and so I know very little about them.

22 Being asked why I was informed directly by the police on the phone, I say

23 this was shorter than receiving the information through Despodov. I mean

24 this in general, for the order to support in all aspects."

25 Given these statements, Mr. Jurisic, does any of this refresh your

Page 3318

1 recollection as to the substance of the conversations that you had with

2 the policeman on the phone that particular weekend?

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that my

5 learned colleague should first ask whether he recollects whether he had

6 such a conversation and only then to ask about the substance of this

7 conversation, because previously the witness had not said that he had

8 remembered having such a conversation.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE PARKER: I believe at the moment, having read the relevant

11 passages in the statement, the question being asked, "Does that refresh

12 your recollection?" Now, she will either receive a "yes" or a "no"

13 answer, I expect, and we will take it from there.

14 A. No.


16 Q. And, Mr. Jurisic, when you were interviewed in 2004, were the

17 events with respect to what had occurred fresher in your mind then than as

18 you sit here today?

19 A. Your Honour, may I be allowed to explain some things?

20 In 2004, as I recall, when I was interviewed, to this day I cannot

21 remember certain things. Why is this so? Because at this period of time

22 when the events were transpiring of 2001, I lost eight soldiers. It is as

23 if I lost a part of me.

24 To this day, each thought to the events of 2001, the first picture

25 that appears in my mind is the picture of the bodies of my soldiers, of

Page 3319

1 arms and legs in the field, and the rest -- and then the rest of the

2 pictures come to my mind from which I try to form a mosaic.

3 In 2004, when I was interviewed by the investigators of your

4 Tribunal, they pointed out certain issues to me. The only thing I could

5 do was confirm that perhaps such things happened.

6 After this period, I thought about this, and I tried to form a

7 mosaic in my head. And what I'm saying today, this is in fact what

8 transpired, this is of what I'm sure. Of what I'm not sure of, this is

9 the only thing I can say. I can only confirm what I am sure transpired.

10 This is what I had to say.

11 Q. Mr. Jurisic, drawing your attention back, though, to August 12th,

12 2001, did the army maintain its positions at the observation points that

13 you've already described to us yesterday?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And to your knowledge, did the army actually enter Ljuboten

16 village on 12 August 2001?

17 A. No.

18 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could please display for the witness what's

19 already been marked for identification purposes as P306. It's at tab 15 of

20 today's binders. The Macedonian version should actually be a handwritten

21 note, that is, N001-4665 to N001-4666.

22 JUDGE PARKER: There is a problem with the Macedonian version, it

23 appears, Ms. Motoike. The witness has a hard copy, does he?

24 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes, Your Honour. With the Court's permission then,

25 can we work off the hard copy, and perhaps I have a copy we could display

Page 3320

1 on the ELMO.

2 Q. Mr. Jurisic, do you see the document that's being displayed next

3 to you on the ELMO? Actually, it should be on the screen in front of you.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting in this document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that handwriting yours?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. If we could go down to the bottom of, I think believe, page 2 of

10 the Macedonian version. It's page 2, I believe. Thank you. The very

11 bottom, there should be a signature line, I believe, at the very bottom of

12 the lower right-hand corner. Thank you.

13 And, Mr. Jurisic, do you recognise that signature at the bottom?

14 A. I cannot see clearly, but it's my signature.

15 Q. And if I could draw your attention to the top of page 1, the very

16 top there, it says: "Report," and then it says: "In relation to the

17 military activities on 12 August 2001." Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And was this a report that was drafted by you regarding your

20 observations on 12 August 2001?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. And was this done -- was this report drafted shortly after the

23 events transpired?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And if I could just draw your attention to the first paragraph

Page 3321

1 there, it says:

2 "At 800 hours on the 12th August 2001, one could hear shots in the

3 area of Ljuboten village. The right wing of defence of the company had

4 informed me from the observation post Smok that they came under attack by

5 machine-gun and sniper fire. I immediately informed the commander of the

6 battalion, who ordered me and my deputy to climb up to the position and

7 perceive the situation."

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then later on in the document, you go on to describe further

11 observations and actions that you took, and then towards the bottom of the

12 document there's a paragraph that starts with, and this might be on the

13 second page of the Macedonian, a paragraph that starts with: "At about

14 1100 hours ...," which I think is towards the middle, that's not being

15 displayed right now:

16 "At about 1100 hours, our positions came under fire of

17 82-millimetre mortars, and during this the grenades were falling at our

18 positions. We realise that the fire was coming from the small forest near

19 the village. After being ordered, the deputy fired five projectiles

20 against the positions of the mortars of the terrorist groups, and after

21 the fifth grenade the attack stopped."

22 And then the last sentence of this report says, if we could

23 perhaps move the document up so the witness could see it:

24 "Further on, our activities against Ljuboten village had stopped.

25 The police are undertaking the further activities."

Page 3322

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And is this report in accord with the actions taken by your

4 company on 12/8/2001?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, this had previously been marked for

7 identification purposes. Could we tender this, please?

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.


10 Q. Following up on this report, Mr. Jurisic -- I apologise.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P306, Your Honours.

12 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

13 Q. Following up on this particular report, Mr. Jurisic, did the

14 battalion also keep a diary or log regarding the events that occurred

15 within the battalion's area of command?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could please show Mr. Jurisic P00305. It is

18 tab 13 of today's binders.

19 Q. Mr. Jurisic, do you see this first page? It says: "Military

20 Diary of the 3rd Guardist Battalion." Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if we could turn to page 4 of the English, I believe it's page

23 3 of the Macedonian, and the hard copies it's page 4 of the English. The

24 left-hand portion. Yes, thank you.

25 Mr. Jurisic, do you see -- you have hard copies as well, in case

Page 3323

1 the resolution on the computer screen is not sufficient for you. Do you

2 see, in the right-hand corner, there's an entry here, and along the top it

3 says "Date", "Contents", "Source", "Remarks", do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do you see an entry here that says "12/8" under the date

6 column, it's the very first entry?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And do you see that in the "Source," it says: "Commander of the

9 2nd Company," do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And this person would be you, is that correct, the commander of

12 the 2nd Company?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you recognise this entry in this first page that I showed

15 you as the diary of the battalion?

16 A. I should read it first.

17 Q. Actually, Mr. Jurisic, let me ask you a few questions first.

18 Do you recognise the handwriting that's in this particular entry

19 that I've directed your attention to?

20 A. No.

21 Q. If I could just read to you what it says, it says:

22 "At the period of time between 1100 until 1700 hours during

23 the ..."

24 And there's a portion that's illegible:

25 " ... of the members of the MVR" - which is Ministry of

Page 3324

1 Interior - "in Ljuboten village, the terrorists were firing from ... "

2 And it says something that's illegible.

3 " ... and Jecmeniste towards our positions with 82-millimetre

4 mortars."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It goes on to say:

8 "At the end of our company, 12 mortar shells had fallen. We fired

9 back with 120-millimetre mortars and 76-millimetre cannon toward the

10 positions of the terrorists."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recall anything with respect to this particular report, and

14 that is that the terrorists were firing from Jecmeniste?

15 A. Yes, at the -- yes.

16 Q. And if you can look at the handwriting, is there also a reference

17 to the village of Kulm, K-u-l-m?

18 A. I can't notice any such thing. Yes, it is mentioned, I see it

19 now.

20 Q. And the mention with respect to the village of Kulm and the

21 village of Jecmeniste is that these are the positions that the terrorists

22 were firing from, is that correct, from what you read?

23 A. Yes, but we found it -- found out about it afterwards, after the

24 actions were finished.

25 Q. If I could show you -- that's already been admitted, so if I could

Page 3325

1 show you another --

2 JUDGE PARKER: Before you move on, could I ask: What mortars did

3 you have in your company at that time?

4 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, we only had 82-millimetre mortars, so

5 mentioned here are also 120-millimetre mortars, which were not under my

6 command, and I don't know why would I give or be a source of such mortars,

7 because they were not under my command, those mortars of 120 millimetres.

8 JUDGE PARKER: In which unit were the 120-millimetre mortars?

9 THE WITNESS: They were in the same battalion where my company

10 was, and it is a support battery.

11 JUDGE PARKER: So in your company, you had lighter mortars,

12 82-millimetre; the heavy mortars were in the support mortar company?

13 THE WITNESS: Exactly.

14 JUDGE PARKER: So are you saying that you did not order the firing

15 of these 120-millimetre mortars?

16 THE WITNESS: I haven't issued such order, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE PARKER: What of the 76-millimetre cannon? Were they in

18 your company?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, we had two such cannons in my company.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Did you give orders for their firing?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, but only when we were under attack, and my

22 commander was informed about it.

23 JUDGE PARKER: And what were the targets?

24 THE WITNESS: The targets for cannons are usually the most risky

25 position. In this case, it was an 82-millimetre mortar that was firing at

Page 3326

1 us. That was the main target for the cannon.

2 JUDGE PARKER: And where was this 82-millimetre mortar firing at

3 you, where was it located?

4 THE WITNESS: Let me explain, Your Honours.

5 When they started firing at us, we did not know where were the

6 shells impacting on us coming from. They started impacting, and we

7 measured the sound and the time that the projectile was flying, we

8 measured the distance, and it approximately fit. The sound and everything

9 indicated that it was in the forest behind the graveyard. I then consulted

10 with my other superior officers, and we believed it was there, but to this

11 date I'm not sure whether the mortar was located there or not. So we

12 fired several projectiles to the small forest or behind the small forest

13 next to the graveyards.

14 After that, much later, maybe it was the 10th or the 12th grenade

15 or something, one of my soldiers who had a higher position, he noted some

16 movements in the area where I supposed the mortar was stationed. After

17 that, I just communicated this to my commander, where could the mortar

18 have been, because it did not stop firing.

19 Immediately afterwards, since 120-millimetre mortars are not under

20 my command, I had no right to issue an order, so it was my commander who

21 asked for assistance. He ordered the battery to support me because I was

22 direct attack of other mortars. So the battery opened fire to this

23 additional, added targets. These are Kulm, the hill where the mortar was

24 firing from, we believed it was firing from there, and later we discovered

25 there a quantity of ammunition, equipment, et cetera.

Page 3327

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 Ms. Motoike.

3 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Jurisic, just to follow up, then, you said that there was fire

5 towards Kulm. What about Jecmeniste which is referenced here in this

6 report?

7 A. It was like this, I think, as far as I'm able to remember at this

8 moment: There are two locations in close proximity to one another. The

9 exact position of one of the mortars you will not be able to pinpoint. It

10 is behind some shelter or something, so you need to cover a larger area in

11 order to neutralise the mortar. So I think it was in this context that

12 the two positions were mentioned, because essentially nobody was really

13 sure where the mortar was located. This is my personal opinion. It is

14 not necessarily accurate.

15 Q. And I apologise to the court reporter. I should have spelled the

16 location. It's J-e-c-m-e-n-i-s-t-e. That's the location I was referring

17 to.

18 Mr. Jurisic, did the 1st Guardist Brigade also keep a diary with

19 respect to events that had occurred in the brigade's responsibility area?

20 A. I suppose, yes. I have never seen it myself.

21 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, I have nothing further.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 Ms. Residovic.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we just ask for

25 five minutes' break until I bring the court files into the courtroom,

Page 3328

1 because I will use them and the witness will.

2 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will stay here, but you can send for

3 the court files, yes.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Thank you very much once again, Your Honours.

6 I would like to ask for the assistance of the usher in

7 distributing the court files to the Judges and to the witness, and we have

8 some for our colleagues. But it might not be in the best order, and I

9 hope that with the assistance of the list, the Prosecutor will be able to

10 follow my questions.

11 Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jurisic.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, and I am counsel for Mr. Ljube

16 Boskoski.

17 Mr. Jurisic, before I start asking you questions, I will ask you

18 -- I would actually ask that both of us are mindful of the interpreting

19 of what we are both saying; namely, I am sure that you're able to

20 understand the language that I'm speaking, as I understand the language

21 that you are speaking, but my questions and your answers as well need to

22 be interpreted for The Honours and the other colleagues in the courtroom

23 to be able to know what we are discussing. So I would kindly ask you to

24 make a brief pause after I have asked my question and wait for the

25 question to be interpreted.

Page 3329

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. From the answers to the questions of my learned colleague, I

3 understood that you graduated from the military academy and you're a

4 professional military officer. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did you graduate from the military academy and where?

7 A. I graduated in 1999 in Skopje.

8 Q. When you started -- when did you start serving in the Army of the

9 Republic of Macedonia?

10 A. August 1999.

11 Q. From your previous statements made in 2004 to the investigator of

12 the OTP, and my learned colleague refreshed your memory about them, I

13 think you stated that in 2001 you had your specialisation. Could you

14 please tell me what specialisation it was, and where did you take that

15 education?

16 A. Let me just ask you, are we speaking about France, because in 2001

17 I had my specialisation in France.

18 Q. Did you have any other additional vocational trainings or

19 specialisations?

20 A. Yes. In 2001, I was in France to specialise in anti-armour

21 rockets, and after that I was at many places in many countries. Should I

22 enumerate them all?

23 Q. So would it be correct if I stated that apart from the military

24 education that you earned in your own country, in the Republic of

25 Macedonia, you have additional military skills that you earned abroad; is

Page 3330

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes, in Turkey, Germany, France and Hungary.

3 Q. It is possibly a mistake in the transcript. I asked about NATO

4 countries. In line 22, that fact was not noted in the transcript, but the

5 witness replied to it and enumerated the countries.

6 At the beginning of your testimony yesterday, my learned colleague

7 the Prosecutor asked you whether, in 2001, you saw the orders issued by

8 the President of the Republic. Do you remember that you were asked that

9 question?

10 A. Yes, I remember that question.

11 Q. And you answered that you, personally, have never seen such

12 orders; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But, Mr. Jurisic, you can agree with me if I stated that you do

15 know that the President of the Republic of Macedonia is at the same time

16 the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of the Republic of Macedonia;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also know that in this capacity, he was able to issue orders

20 to the armed forces; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. You can also confirm that he was able to issue those orders from

23 his capacity as commander-in-chief of the armed forces both verbally and

24 in writing; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, correct.

Page 3331

1 Q. And it would also be correct that the President, in his capacity

2 as the commander-in-chief, could issue order to any subordinate officer;

3 is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If I were to say that apart from the Constitution that stipulates

6 that the President of the Republic is the commander-in-chief of the armed

7 forces, the rights, the duties and responsibilities of the President are

8 regulated additionally with the law on defence and other secondary

9 legislation items, and to the best of your recollection this is also

10 correct; is that so?

11 A. Exactly.

12 Q. Apart from the law on defence, of particular importance for the

13 operations in the army are also the rules of service in the Army of the

14 Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jurisic, that in 2001, in the Republic of

17 Macedonia, the law on defence, adopted in 1995, was in force and that

18 towards the middle of that year a new law was adopted; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 2, 65

21 ter 1D443 in the Macedonian version. The English is 1D4083. That is the

22 English version, while the Macedonian is 1D4079.

23 Your Honours, for the purposes of this cross-examination, we

24 prepared a draft translation of two articles only, and I wish to show them

25 to the witness. When the official transcript is ready, we will replace

Page 3332

1 them.

2 You see now the first page from the collection of regulations

3 governing the defence, so I would like to ask to move immediately to the

4 second page. In Macedonian, that is 1D408, and in English it is 1D4084.

5 The English page is 1D4085. These are the initial provisions from

6 the law on defence, and at the bottom you can see this is a law that, as

7 you have stated, was published in the Official Gazette of Macedonia in

8 1995.

9 Is that the law that you mentioned before, the law being in force

10 in 2001?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I would like to ask to turn to the next page of the Macedonian

13 version, 1D4081. And you see here the Article 15 that provides for the

14 duties of the President of the Republic. Please look at the Item 12. I

15 will read it out to you:

16 "Among the other competences of the President is to order use of

17 police to carry out military tasks in a state of war."

18 Were you, as an officer, as a military officer, aware that the

19 President of the State, as commander-in-chief, had under the law powers to

20 order use of police forces?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I will ask you to also turn to the next page in the Macedonian

23 text, that is, 1D4082, and please look at the Article 23:

24 "The aforementioned article states that in a state of war, the

25 police can be used to carry out military tasks as a component part of the

Page 3333

1 army."

2 And below this article there is a reference to the powers of the

3 President as a commander-in-chief, and that is law.

4 Were you, as a military officer, aware that in a situation when

5 the police carries out military tasks, combat tasks, it is also under the

6 command and control of the army structures?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

9 Your Honours, I would seek to tender this portion of the Law on

10 Defence into evidence.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 1D97, Your Honours.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. As you have just stated, towards the middle of the year a new Law

15 on Defence was adopted, a new Law on Defence of the Republic of Macedonia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, please, before we look at the relevant provisions, is it

18 correct that after the adoption of the law, there are numerous secondary

19 legislation items adopted in accordance with the legal system of the

20 Republic of Macedonia, and it is them who actually make possible for the

21 law to be enforced in the practice?

22 A. Exactly.

23 Q. And when it comes to the Army of the Republic of Macedonia and

24 other defence forces, then it is necessary to adopt the Rules of Service

25 and other regulations that actually govern the modes of enforcement of the

Page 3334

1 law and also the modes for the system of command and management; is that

2 understanding of mine about the way in which the law operates correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab number

5 1, and that is 65 ter 788. R042 -- oh, we have it already, 4542, and the

6 English text has also appeared on the screen.

7 Do you, Mr. Jurisic, recognise the Official Gazette of the

8 Republic of Macedonia, which is the publication where laws and other

9 regulation of the Republic of Macedonia are published?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you see that this Official Gazette was actually published on

12 the 1st of June, 2001; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in it, the Law on Defence that we just discussed was

15 published; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I would like to ask now to look at the transitional and final

18 clauses of this law that are in the Macedonian R424549 --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 424559.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

21 Q. -- while the English is N0022850. These are the provisions from

22 Article 172 to 174. Mr. Jurisic, let's look at the Article 174 first,

23 where it is noted that this law enters into force on the eighth day after

24 the publication of the Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia. You

25 do know that this is a general rule when laws come into force; is that

Page 3335

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But I would like to ask you to look together at the Article 172

4 and Article 173 of the law. The Article 172 provides regulations, the

5 issuing of which is foreseen by this law will be issued in the period of

6 one year from the day it enters into force, except for the regulations

7 provided for in Articles 142, 143 and 144 that will be adopted within two

8 years. And the Article 173 stipulates that at the date this law enters

9 into force, the validity of the Law on Defence ceases and, in brackets, it

10 is the law that we have mentioned before, that is, the law of 1995.

11 And the paragraph 2 stipulates:

12 "Regulations are passed on the basis of the law and paragraph 1 of

13 this law will be applied until the regulations from Article 172 of this

14 law are adopted, unless they are in contravention to the provisions of

15 this law."

16 Mr. Jurisic, is it correct that the prior version of this law was

17 in force, in accordance with these provisions right now, all the way until

18 the moment these secondary legislation items were adopted, those mentioned

19 in this provision? Were you aware of this or do you know it from your

20 practice from 2001?

21 A. Yes, I am aware of this, and it is correct.

22 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you now to look at the Article 18

23 of this law, which you can find in Macedonian page R0424544, and the

24 English page is N0022789.

25 As one can see from the text of the law in Article 11, it

Page 3336

1 regulates the authorisations and the rights and the obligations of the

2 commander-in-chief of the army, the President of the Republic of

3 Macedonia.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the transcript said

5 "Article 11", and it should say "Article 18".

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. If you look at this article, Mr. Jurisic, so that we won't have to

8 go into it as a whole, you can note that the authorisation of the

9 President of the Republic to order the use of police force is no longer

10 foreseen with this article. Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I would ask you to look at the last item of this article, where it

13 is stated:

14 "In order to realise the function in the area of the defence, the

15 President of the Republic and the commander-in-chief of the Army adopts by

16 laws our secondary legislation."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Jurisic, is it correct that until the president of the Republic

19 adopted the regulations stated in this provision, he continued exercising

20 powers in accordance with the previous law. Is it true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I would like to ask you now about the Article 19, which is in the

23 same Macedonian page, while the English page, apart from the page that we

24 see here, continues also on N002-2790. And I kindly ask you to look now

25 and read about the powers of the government of the Republic of Macedonia

Page 3337

1 with regards to the police in Macedonia, and that is the Item 11, while in

2 the translation it would be on the page N002-2790, line 8, where it says:

3 "Orders to use the police forces."

4 So in Item 11, it is stated that the government of the Republic of

5 Macedonia orders the use of police in a state of war in support of the

6 army?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it correct -- and my understanding is that the competences of

9 the President, pursuant to the law, were transferred to the government of

10 the Republic of Macedonia, but the actual application or use of these

11 powers hinged on the adoption of the secondary legislation items; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Exactly.

14 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jurisic, that neither the old nor the new Law

15 on Defence provide that the Minister of the Interior had powers to order

16 the use of police forces for military purposes or for combat tasks; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I spent five minutes

20 in bringing of this file, and should we now take the recess or should we

21 continue?

22 JUDGE PARKER: We would be able to go five more minutes on the

23 tape, but could I look ahead and ask: Is it the expectation of counsel

24 that we will finish the present witness today?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering that my

Page 3338

1 learned colleague finished earlier, my understanding is that I will be

2 able to finish within the next session.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 And Mr. Apostolski, do you anticipate being long with this

5 witness?

6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that I will

7 need one hour for this witness, so we will do our best to be in

8 coordination with my colleague Residovic and finish with the witness

9 today.

10 JUDGE PARKER: I take it that will accommodate your needs

11 probably, Ms. Motoike.

12 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: I ask those questions with reason, in that as

14 counsel may be aware, I sit in other matters as well, and a matter, I am

15 told, has arisen of some urgency, which may require me to be dealing with

16 something else on Monday. And perhaps, Ms. Motoike, if you could discuss

17 with Mr. Saxon, who is at the moment, I understand from last night,

18 looking at the question of the future timetable and estimates of the

19 length of the Prosecution case, and while it's too early yet for me to

20 know exactly what will be the demands on my time on Monday, it may well be

21 the case that I am not able to sit in this matter, so the prospect arises

22 whether it would create too much of a difficulty if we did not sit on

23 Monday. And it would certainly help in that direction if the present

24 witness were able to be finished by the end of today.

25 Thank you.

Page 3339

1 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we go on with

5 the questions, I would ask 45 ter 88, the new Law on Defence, be accepted

6 as evidence of the Defence.

7 Correction. The law is 65 ter 788. This is after the first tab

8 in the binder.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 1D98, Your Honours.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Jurisic, on the question of my learned colleague, you said

13 that you were on duty as commander of the 2nd Company of the 1st Guardist

14 Brigade the beginning of July 2001. Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct that prior to your assumption of duty, the command

17 was -- the Defence Command of Skopje was established?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The defence of the city of Skopje was otherwise of strategic

20 interest for the Republic of Macedonia; is this correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The decision to undertake special measures for the defence of the

23 city of Skopje and its environment was also of strategic significance; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3340

1 Q. I would now ask you to look at the document which is after tab 8,

2 65 ter 646, number -- the number in the Macedonian version is 602677.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the number in

4 Macedonia is N0026077.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You can see this is a decision brought by the President of the

7 Republic on that date?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In the right corner, lower corner, is the signature of the

10 President of the Republic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the title of this decision, it is established the basis for the

13 passing of this decision and the aim of taking timely measures for the

14 defence of the city of Skopje, which was due to the reason that -- which

15 was the reason for the adoption of this strategic decision; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In Point 2 of the decision, it lists the units that will care for

18 the defence of the city, including the 1st Guard Brigade, which included

19 your company, is this correct, that they be subordinated to it?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I ask that this be received into

22 evidence.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 1D99, Your Honours.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3341

1 Q. I would now ask you to look at the document at tab 9. This 1D81.

2 I would ask you to look at the first size 00694, Macedonian, and 1D3048 in

3 the English version.

4 Before we look at this document, I would ask you, is it correct

5 that on the basis of this strategic decision, passed and adopted by the

6 President of the Republic, subordinate levels brought operative decisions

7 and determining the missions of these units, and which you, as military

8 officers, obliged you for the carrying out of these duties?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I would ask you to look at -- together at these documents. Do you

11 agree with me that in the upper left corner is that this decision was

12 adopted by the city of Skopje, the Defence Command, on the 11th of July,

13 2001?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that this is on the order for the defence of the City of

16 Skopje? This is the text which is located in the middle of this document;

17 is this correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I would now ask you to look at the last page of this document,

20 Macedonian 0006 -- this document number is N000-6918. My apologies.

21 1D053 -- 3053.

22 Line 23 of the transcript is wrong. The document -- the 11th of

23 June is the date of the document.

24 Mr. Jurisic, in the lower right corner is a signature of the

25 commander, Major-General Sokol Mitrovski. Is General Mitrovski, in

Page 3342

1 accordance to your understanding in the first year, was he the commander

2 of the defence of the city of Skopje?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask that we go back to the

5 first page of this document, N00-6913. The English, 1D3048.

6 Q. Mr. Jurisic, let's look at Item 1. It lists as follows:

7 "As a consequence of the establishment of and actions by the

8 armed formations of the Albanian minority on the territory of Kosovo, and

9 the choice of armed violence as a method for resolving possible

10 dissatisfactions and political demands on the territory of the Republic of

11 Macedonia, for a long period of time diversion terrorist groups of the

12 Albanian minority are active with mixed composition, both by motives as

13 well as by origin. Their strength varies."

14 Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Further, it states:

17 "Because of defeats incurred with the security forces with the

18 Republic of Macedonia in the populated areas in the eastern slopes of

19 Skopska Crna Gora, there are noticeable efforts on the parts of the

20 terrorists to transfer the actions to the region of Skopje and to

21 facilities of vital importance for the normal life of the population and

22 the operation of the bodies of state authority. Terrorists control the

23 village Aracinovo where it follows --", followed by the text as it is

24 listed in the document.

25 In accordance to your understanding from 2001, Mr. Jurisic, are

Page 3343

1 these the basic reasons for which this command for the defence of the city

2 of Skopje established?

3 A. This is quite -- this is correct.

4 Q. I would now ask you to look at Item 2.2. In paragraph 2, it

5 lists, and I quote:

6 "Task. In joint action, with the neighbours and bodies of the

7 Ministry of Interior Affairs -- Internal Affairs -- and Civil Defence, to

8 control the access points towards the city of Skopje, to destroy the

9 discovered diversion and terrorist groups, and to hinder the infiltration

10 of diversion and terrorist groups into the city and into the region of

11 vital facilities and actions upon these."

12 Is this the basic task which you also were charged with when you

13 took over the company in the 3rd Battalion?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I would now ask you to look at the other page of this document,

16 1D3044, and 49 in the English version. Let's look at this Point 3, fourth

17 paragraph, where it is stated:

18 "The forces of the Ministry of Interior will block the village of

19 Aracinovo and will control the entrance into the village."

20 Is this way of elaborating the attacks of the Ministry of Interior

21 clearly speaks that the units of the Ministry of Interior were under the

22 command of the army and that the army determined and issued military

23 combat tasks to this unit for the defence of Skopje?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In fact, this order is order which clarifies or underlines what

Page 3344

1 you responded so far regarding the manner of engaging the police force on

2 their combat duties, combat activities?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The listed task given to the army of operative significance, and

5 this is to control the access to the city, towards the city of Skopje, to

6 destroy diversion and sabotage groups, and to impede infiltration of

7 diversion and sabotage groups, is practically a task which is elaborated

8 in the order of your brigade, and this was your basic task during the time

9 when you came to the region, which you pointed out to our colleague

10 yesterday, in the area of Ljubanci and Ljuboten; is this correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. For the superiors of -- officers of lower rank, commander of the

13 defence of the city of Skopje, was it not necessary to issue additional

14 orders so that this basic task can be carried out? This was their basic

15 duty, to impede terrorists from entering Skopje and to destroy all and any

16 terrorist groups that is present in that area, that they would discover in

17 that area; is this correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In answering to the question of my learned colleague, you also

20 mentioned that when you assumed the position of commander of the 2nd

21 Company of the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Guardist Brigade, your brigade was

22 deployed in the area, listed area, do you recall that, when you made the

23 statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would now ask you to look at the document which is after tab 10.

Page 3345

1 This is 65 ter 647, Macedonian version N0026078, the English ET.

2 Mr. Jurisic, is it correct that under the authority of the

3 President of the Republic, as the commander-in-chief, is also the

4 mobilisation of the army?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The document which you have in front of you, also in the upper

7 left corner, issued by the President of Macedonia, and the right-hand

8 corner contains -- in the lower corner is the President of the Republic of

9 Macedonia; is this correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In the order issued on the 11th of June, 2001, mobilisation is

12 ordered, among others. If we look at Point 1, of the 1st Guard Brigade,

13 and this is the brigade that included your battalion; is this correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Practically, this order was the implementation of decision of the

16 President for the formation of the defence of the city of Skopje; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In regards with the mobilisation, Mr. Jurisic, is it correct that

20 there was substantial problems in calling for the reserves of the Republic

21 of Macedonia?

22 A. Yes, there were certain problems in terms of quantity and quality.

23 Q. When talking about the quality of reserves, will you concur with

24 me that I say that because of the fact that a very small number of persons

25 called on the -- responded to the call for mobilisation, the criteria were

Page 3346

1 often lowered, and persons were mobilised which, under different

2 conditions, would not have been mobilised but were so because of the needs

3 of the country, the demands of the country?

4 A. This is correct.

5 Q. Is it also correct that the reserve forces in the units, the

6 actual composition of them, were changed at every 30 days?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. It is, if I can say it in this way, and please answer whether you

9 agree with me, this was a very big problem for the commanders, for the

10 leaders, regarding the training and regarding the effective control over

11 them?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in your company, you also faced this problem; is that correct?

14 A. Exactly.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you now for

17 the 65 ter 647 be admitted into evidence.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 1D100, Your Honours.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Jurisic, during your testimony, you recognised, in

22 the sketch in the map that my learned colleague showed to you, the

23 position of your company, the place where the command of the company was

24 located, and the place where the company was stationed, in general, but

25 also all the monitoring points that you had occupied at that time.

Page 3347

1 A. Yes.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, observation posts

3 instead of monitoring points.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jurisic, that after the deployment of your

6 company, and pursuant to the order on defence of the city of Skopje, you

7 undertook significant tasks of reconnaissance and gathering data about the

8 surroundings and especially about the sabotage and terrorist groups; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In preparation for this trial, on the 3rd of July, 2007, you

12 stated to the Prosecutor that immediately after the arrival, you would

13 receive from your soldiers, several times a week, information about the

14 movements of the NLA in the area where your company and your battalion

15 were deployed; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The reports that you received from your soldiers spoke to the fact

18 that they noticed movements of people wearing black uniforms in that area;

19 is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At that time, it was known that the NLA members were wearing black

22 uniforms; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Also, armed people were noticed; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3348

1 Q. And the reports that your subordinate officers would make to you

2 support the fact that movements towards the village of Ljuboten were

3 observed; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Also, you would receive reports that villagers are leaving the

6 village with a large number of cattle, especially sheep, and then they

7 returned to the village with significantly less sheep; is that correct

8 also?

9 A. Yes. It is not only the information I received, I personally have

10 seen it.

11 Q. Also, these so-called shepherds would come close to your positions

12 and they would put the security of your company at risk; is that also

13 correct?

14 A. Exactly. If I make it more precise, Your Honours, if I'm allowed.

15 Actually, those persons, those shepherds, were, in a way, in -- in

16 my view, they were the eyes of the terrorists, because in that way they

17 were counting the people at our positions, the deployment of our forces,

18 et cetera. I end it here.

19 Q. Thank you very much. So what you had stated for me means that

20 they were monitoring your combat positions and they were informing the NLA

21 about it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Apart from these reports, is it also correct that the soldiers had

24 found, in the area where the soldiers were moving, live ammunition of

25 Chinese origin that, in your understanding, was probably falling down from

Page 3349

1 the trucks, from the transport vehicles during the transport?

2 A. Yes. And can I also make further clarification here,

3 Your Honours?

4 It was not only my soldiers. I personally found ammunition of

5 Chinese production that fell off the vehicles. In principle, in

6 the army, Chinese ammunition is prohibited, so this was not our

7 ammunition. It was ammunition which was found several times and I

8 personally have found when making reconnaissance of the grounds, and my

9 soldiers have as well. I end here.

10 Q. Would it be correct for me to state that these reports, these

11 findings and your personal insight into some of the aforementioned facts,

12 actually created in you a deep conviction that Ljuboten is used as a

13 logistic base for the needs of the NLA?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On the other hand, it is also correct that you made efforts to

16 explain to the population, to the inhabitants, that they are under no risk

17 from you, unless of course the terrorists are entering the village and

18 using it for actions against the security forces?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Even the minor incidents perpetrated by your soldiers,

21 particularly the reservists, you tried to resolve those incidents in a

22 peaceful way with the village leadership; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in your exchange with the Prosecutor a while ago, you

25 mentioned that a cow was killed, and then on that occasion you personally

Page 3350

1 went to the village to resolve the situation, and the soldier was removed

2 from the unit; is that correct?

3 A. Exactly. And if I may add, also measures were taken against him,

4 not only that he was removed from the unit but he was also surrendered to

5 the law enforcement so that further measures are taken against him.

6 Q. In the notes of the 3rd of July that my learned colleague showed

7 to you this morning, there is also a conclusion or, rather, a statement of

8 yours that you personally were in a situation of entering the village of

9 Ljuboten and being blocked, in a way. Can you tell us what is it about,

10 Mr. Jurisic?

11 A. It is actually the following, Your Honours: In the stage of my

12 research or investigation of the situation about the cow that was killed

13 in that region by my soldiers, I went into the village, together with the

14 village leadership, village authorities, and we went to the scene of that

15 incident to see who shot, from where, and what were the circumstances

16 under which this happened. And after taking all the data and all the

17 evidence, me and my driver, of course unarmed, I went back to my command

18 station. And then I was literally blocked in the village. These are

19 narrow lanes. A tractor came in front of me. We immediately tried --

20 because it was suspicious, I expected something could happen, we tried to

21 drive in reverse. But when we turned back, there was a second tractor

22 there that was blocking my way back. There was a small lane leading to

23 the right, towards the exit from the village, towards the valley, but I

24 was also blocked there because there was already a person there with a

25 carriage who was blocking the way. So there were several seconds, several

Page 3351

1 moments -- it was not a long period, but to me they seemed long, and I

2 realised that it was actually dangerous to be there.

3 My initial idea is I'm now being reminded of it, I think at that

4 time I thought that something would happen to me. Fortunately, nothing

5 happened. After that, after they looked at me, all three of those drivers

6 of those tractors and trailers, one by one they moved away from the road

7 and they let me pass.

8 That is my experience from the village. So even if I went out,

9 even if I -- went out of the car and started running, I couldn't go

10 anywhere because there were high walls, stone walls, thick walls,

11 protecting the villages all around me, so I couldn't go anywhere, forward,

12 backwards, to the side. I couldn't go anywhere.

13 Q. Thank you for this clarification.

14 From this experience of yours, this situation where you entered

15 the village to peacefully resolve a situation, would it be correct for me

16 to infer that already then, in July or the beginning of August, depending

17 on when this event you described took place, would it be correct for me to

18 say that in the village of Ljuboten there were already ways established to

19 block entry into the village and that one could not enter the village

20 freely or move around the village freely?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You also mentioned that there were walls around you. As a

23 military officer, could you tell us, these walls that are customarily

24 found around the Albanian houses and villages, or at least are around most

25 of the traditional houses of the Albanian families, can they be considered

Page 3352

1 a fortification of sorts when considered in a defence sense or in an

2 offensive sense, a fortification for the persons located behind these

3 walls?

4 A. Yes, precisely.

5 Q. You also stated that you couldn't move anywhere because the lane

6 was narrow. Could you tell me, please, whether the width of the lane, of

7 the street, would provide for a normal manoeuvre with a normal car?

8 A. If it is a single car, by driving carefully, yes, you can

9 manoeuvre without any problem. But if it is a larger vehicle or two

10 vehicles, it's difficult or impossible. I think they could not pass one

11 another by or turn there in those lanes.

12 Q. And if the vehicle in question would be an APC or a Hermelin,

13 could they manoeuvre in such lane?

14 A. Even if they tried, they would get stuck. That is my opinion.

15 Q. And if someone would state before this Court, Mr. Jurisic, that

16 those obstacles -- those objects that you mentioned as fortification of

17 these facilities, they are actually walls to the family houses, that they

18 were no obstacle because it would be very simple with a Hermelin to tear

19 the wall down or tear the door down, would such testimony be accurate, in

20 your opinion, considering that -- considering your knowledge of the

21 situation and your experience?

22 A. As far as I understood. You are asking me whether it is possible

23 to hit a wall with a Hermelin. This is nonsense, this is stupidity. My

24 apologies, but this is not done. First, the Hermelin is not able to tear

25 the wall down, and if it would attempt to, then it would remain on the

Page 3353

1 spot. The Hermelin could not move afterwards. So what you're saying is

2 illogical.

3 Q. Thank you. When we spoke about the composition of your company

4 and the reserve forces, would it be correct if I stated -- before that,

5 let me ask you: How many soldiers were there in your company?

6 A. Your Honours, at this moment I can't remember the exact figure,

7 but around 120, it might have been. More than 100. 100 to 120. I can't

8 be more accurate than this, Your Honours.

9 Q. Would it be correct that around 80 per cent of your company were

10 made up of the reserve forces?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And is it correct that within your company there was a large

13 number of reserve forces from the neighbouring village, Ljubanci?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When my learned colleague, the Prosecutor, asked you, you stated

16 that you have spent part of the 11th of August at your command post in the

17 Children's Rest House in Ljubanci. Do you remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And if I start from the statement you gave to the Prosecutor

20 earlier and say that you have spent most of the day there with the

21 engineers team and the police near the place where the NLA have planted

22 the mine at the Ljubotenski Bacila, then these facts would be correct?

23 THE INTERPRETER: And interpreter's correction, military police

24 and not police.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3354

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You needed to remove parts of the truck that transported your

3 soldiers there. You then took photographs of the scene of the incident,

4 and you then investigated the immediate vicinity of the location where the

5 mine was planted; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And already that day you found, on that location, a detonator and

8 a Zolja; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could it be inferred from this that these sabotage/terrorist

11 groups, apart from the Zoljas and mines and mortars that you spoke about

12 earlier, also used Zoljas?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it correct that two days later, searching in detail the ground,

15 you found, as you stated a while ago, numerous other things that belonged

16 to the terrorists, some were pants, uniforms, ammunition, a passport, ID

17 card, and that you handed these over to the battalion command; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, and there is, I think, a written report on it, on everything

20 that I found.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, on line 52, 16, it

22 should be automatic rifles instead of Zoljas.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. When answering a question by my learned colleague, you

25 spontaneously -- rather emotionally you explained your sentiments, how you

Page 3355

1 experienced what happened to your soldiers on the 10th of August, 2001.

2 Is it correct that part of your company that was returning from the

3 position stepped on a mine that was planted at the location

4 Ljubotenski Bacila?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And immediately the mine explosion killed six members of the

7 company, one died on the way to the hospital, and the eighth died in the

8 hospital; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Two of the soldiers killed were reservists from the village of

11 Ljubanci; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were informed about it by your subordinate officer, a platoon

14 commander, Zoran Kitanovski [phoen]; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You immediately informed the commander, Despodov, about this

17 event, and you then asked for a --

18 A. Could I make it more precise?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could first the counsel repeat the final part of

20 the question, because we did not get it, and could the witness be stopped?

21 A. It is not only that I asked for a helicopter, but I asked for

22 combat assistance because the action was ongoing. So not only a

23 helicopter to help us lift the injured, but also combat assistance because

24 we were not able to remove the injured because we had information that

25 they were under strong fire, that they were moving against them to finish

Page 3356

1 the killing of them.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Jurisic, you just explained the question I was about to ask.

4 So it was not only the mine that was planted, but also the members of

5 these terrorist groups continued firing at the injured, the officers, the

6 survivors; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in response to this attack, you opened fire at their

9 positions; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On that day, you did not issue a single order to fire at the

12 village; is that correct?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. But there was fire against your positions from mortars and other

15 weapons from the NLA positions?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Your positions, especially Smok and Bomba, were directly above the

18 village. Is it possible, Mr. Jurisic, that the grenades fired at you

19 could have hit the village, actually impacted in the village?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Considering that you, as a commander, as you explained, were in a

22 state of shock and for a long time afterwards and even to this date you

23 can't forget what you have seen and what you have lived through, would it

24 be correct for me to say that your soldiers were also in a shock and it

25 was that event that provoked a horrific unrest, a horrific agitation on

Page 3357

1 the part of the population of Ljuboten and the neighbouring village --

2 Ljubanci and the neighbouring villages?

3 A. Yes.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note. Could the counsel and

5 witness be asked to use make between the question and answer.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Jurisic, we have been warned

7 to make pauses, and we will try to accommodate the interpreters and make

8 their job easier.

9 THE WITNESS: Very well.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Somewhat earlier, we discussed that it was difficult to put these

12 reserve forces under effective command.

13 Mr. Jurisic, in view of the position and the state in which these

14 soldiers were in after the explosion of the mine, and although you had not

15 received information, you cannot exclude the possibility that some of

16 these soldiers from your positions opened fire towards Ljuboten with

17 infantry weapons? Is it correct to say that this possibility cannot be

18 simply excluded under such circumstances?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it also correct, Mr. Jurisic, that you immediately, on the same

21 day, on the 10th of August, 2001, that you received a report that three

22 armed persons entered the village from the direction of the explosion and

23 that they entered the village in the area of the Zendeli home?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you at that time have knowledge that similar observations of

Page 3358

1 entry of these persons into the village were also obtained by the police,

2 who were on the -- in the check-points around the village?

3 A. Most probably they had such understandings and knowledge, because

4 all of the information I had, I transferred to my commander, I informed my

5 commander about them, so most probably they too would have had the same

6 information because I did not keep this information. All information I

7 had was passed on.

8 Q. At the entry, was it your presumption, when you heard this and

9 when the others heard, that these are the persons who took part in the

10 placing of the mines?

11 A. I did not understand the question.

12 Q. After you heard that these armed persons entered the village, did

13 you then at that time believe that these are persons who took part and

14 participated in placing the mines and then took shelter in the village?

15 A. Yes. If I'm allowed to clarify.

16 The reporting was -- for my soldiers, the report I received from

17 my soldier was that in breaking up the group who took part in the attack

18 on my soldiers and the placing of the mines and the killing of my

19 soldiers, one group of these persons, because it was broken up, one part

20 withdrew towards the forest, and the other part of the group down the

21 valley towards the village. This is why I believe you are talking about

22 the group who went down the valley towards the village.

23 Q. And following the orders which we were looking at earlier about

24 the defence of the city, this fact would be -- would represent a

25 legitimate basis that you and other security forces carry out a search of

Page 3359

1 the village and apprehend these terrorists; can you agree with this?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you very much. I have a number of other questions which are

4 of a different nature than the ones we discussed at the moment.

5 I would ask that the witness be shown evidence of the Prosecution,

6 P5. The Prosecution exhibit, it's a picture which can be seen -- which

7 can be seen behind tab 35.

8 Do you see this picture, Mr. Jurisic?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. At the lower corner of the picture, you see bullet shells. In the

11 upper part of the picture, you see a part of the house, the door, and to

12 the left a wall of the house, the wall of the house. Is this what you see

13 on this picture?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I would now ask you, Mr. Jurisic, with the help of the Court

16 Usher, to mark with a circle the place where the bullet shells are to be

17 seen and to mark them with "1".

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Mark with the number "2" the door to the house which you see on

20 this photograph.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. And please mark with "3" the wall of the house, which is also

23 shown on the left part of this photograph.

24 A. There will be an overlap. [Marks]

25 Q. You marked part of the wall through the door, but that's fine.

Page 3360

1 Thank you.

2 Your Honours, I would like first to tender this exhibit, and then

3 I will ask the related questions that I have.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 1D101, Your Honours.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask the Registry to

7 show us the lower part of this photograph in a somewhat enlarged version

8 so that we can see the bullet casings.

9 Once again, this is Exhibit number 5, P5. If you can enlarge the

10 lower part of the picture, please.

11 Q. Mr. Jurisic, with the help of your professional expertise,

12 professional knowledge and expertise, can you and will you concur with me

13 if I were to say that here we have casings which come from a weapon of

14 62 -- 7.62 times 32 millimetres.

15 A. [No interpretation]

16 Q. And this is ammunition used for automatic rifles, AK-47, also

17 known as a Kalashnikov?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now I would ask you to clarify for me, or I want to check and test

20 a fact.

21 Tell me, is it correct -- and prior to that, let me ask you:

22 Surely, you have used Kalashnikovs and this type of ammunition in your

23 professional practice?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you know how bullet casings react when fired from these kind

Page 3361

1 of weapons?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And is it also correct that when firing from a Kalashnikov and

4 weapons of this type, the casings which are fired are automatically

5 charged from the weapon?

6 A. When fired, one by one they are discharged from the weapon.

7 Q. Is it correct that upon firing, these casings are discharged in an

8 arc towards the right and somewhat forward; is this the manner in which

9 these casings are discharged?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. [No interpretation]

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I will repeat the question. It was not -- the question is: Is it

14 correct to say that the discharge of the casings is at least two or three

15 metres from the place where the shooter is located?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask that we look at the

18 picture as a whole, once again, the one we were looking at previously.

19 Q. If we were to look at this photograph and the casings which are at

20 the bottom of this photograph, in view of your previous response, would it

21 be correct if I were to say that the shooter, whose casings are left here

22 in this place, must have been at least two to three metres to the right of

23 these casings?

24 A. This is not correct.

25 Q. I beg your pardon?

Page 3362

1 A. He would be two to three metres, depending where he was aiming, at

2 the direction he was aiming at. If we know the direction of where he was

3 aiming, we would know where he would be located vis-a-vis the casings.

4 Q. The casings, if you had said previously are discharged to the

5 right -- my apologies, my mistake. He would be then two or three metres

6 to the left. Correct, my apologies. He would have to be two to three

7 metres to the left of the place where these casings are?

8 A. Under the condition that he was aiming straight.

9 Q. Yes. This is exactly the manner of the shooting that I want to

10 ask you about.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If the shooter is two to three metres to the left to the place

13 where these casings are located, is it correct that then, due to the

14 natural obstacle of the wall which you have marked, would not be able to

15 hit the person who is at the door or nearby the door of the house?

16 A. Correct.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Now I would ask the witness be shown Exhibit 5337. This is after

19 tab 33. It's a document under seal. It should not be shown to the

20 public. This is Exhibit 5337 -- Exhibit P337.

21 Q. Mr. Jurisic, in view of the fact that you are in the area around

22 Ljuboten, that you have spent some time there around the period of 2001,

23 you also had knowledge that the population of the village of Ljuboten

24 deals mainly with agriculture; is this correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3363

1 Q. And that quite frequently, as part of their houses, there are also

2 agricultural equipment, fuel for this equipment, stalls with hay and

3 similar things; was this to your understanding?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Many of these things which I talked about are easily inflammable

6 substances; is that not correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Can you tell me, as a professional soldier, whether it is correct

9 that such materials could become inflamed also by a bullet from a

10 cannon-ball or by a grenade, a mortar grenade?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It could also inflame by a bomb?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In view, as you had said, that these houses are connected by

15 walls, is it true to say that a fire in one of these houses, in one of

16 these stalls, in one of these warehouses of fuel, can be easily

17 transferred to other houses without these houses ever being hit by

18 anything? Of course, if there is -- if the fire had not been put out, of

19 course.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The photograph which you see in front of you, do you recognise

22 this picture?

23 A. Personally, no.

24 Q. You did not enter in the village of Ljuboten after the events?

25 A. No.

Page 3364

1 Q. If these were new buildings, would this be the street which you

2 had passed when you went to the village to talk about the killing of the

3 cow?

4 A. At this moment, I cannot recall whether this is exactly the

5 street, but most of the streets are like this. I cannot remember whether

6 it is exactly this street which I passed through.

7 Q. But you can remember that this would approximately be the walls

8 that you were talking about which surround the houses in this area in the

9 village of Ljuboten?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you recall that the houses were in a range -- in a line as

12 they are shown on this photograph, and this is what you had said

13 previously, that the fire could easily spread from one house to another?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that this street was a very narrow one, and only in the areas

16 where -- of a crossroads, such as we can see at the beginning of the lower

17 left side of this photograph, only in places such as these, where two

18 streets intersected, could vehicles, larger vehicles, manoeuvre; is this

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Mr. Jurisic,

22 I wish to thank you.

23 Your Honours, I have finished with my cross-examination. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

Page 3365

1 Mr. Apostolski.

2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me ask you

3 first, would it be better to go into recess now and then finish the

4 cross-examination in one chunk or should I start now and then interrupt my

5 cross-examination?

6 JUDGE PARKER: We need to allow time not only for you, but for Ms.

7 Motoike. I'd --

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] All right, no problem.

9 JUDGE PARKER: We could use a little time now with Mr. Saxon, have

10 the break, but then it would be necessary for both you and Ms. Motoike to

11 finish in the remaining period. Will that be feasible?

12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I think, yes, there won't be any

13 problem with it.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We will do that, then.

15 Mr. Saxon, I see you sitting patiently.

16 I think it would be convenient now if the witness would commence

17 his break now, and his evidence will continue after this break.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with respect to the question that

20 Your Honours asked me last night about the remaining time needed for the

21 Prosecution's case, there are more than 40 witnesses who still remain on

22 the -- what is called the Prosecution's proposed second amended witness

23 list, and I am including in that number witnesses who have begun their

24 testimony but have not finished, which I believe there are two such

25 witnesses pending at this time.

Page 3366

1 Your Honours, last night the Prosecution began a process of

2 reviewing the evidence, the expected evidence, of those 40-odd persons,

3 with a view to selecting more witnesses which could be removed from the

4 Prosecution's case, and the Prosecution can say that already it feels that

5 there will be a number of witnesses which it will be able to remove.

6 But having said that, Your Honours, for obvious reasons the

7 Prosecution would like to do this process carefully and methodically, and

8 the process of review will be continuing during the weekend. And I would

9 ask the Chamber's permission to report back to it no later than Wednesday

10 of next week with a new proposed amended witness list as well as a new

11 calculation for time.

12 JUDGE PARKER: We are, of course, not sitting on Wednesday. You

13 meant you would be reporting in writing?

14 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, thank you.

16 We certainly appreciate that this is a matter which must be

17 considered carefully and with proper care, so we thank you for the efforts

18 you are making and look forward to the outcome.

19 A secondary matter arose, Mr. Saxon. It's arisen for me because

20 of the demands of another case that I'm hearing, and the question is: As

21 it is anticipated, the present witness will be finished today, rather than

22 being part heard to be finish on Monday, whether it will be disruptive if

23 we do not sit on Monday?

24 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber can inform the parties, then, that we

Page 3367

1 will not sit on Monday. That's coupled with the Tuesday and Wednesday

2 that are at the moment not sitting days because of the commitments of

3 counsel.

4 I'm sorry about the loss of Monday, but given that it is just one

5 day on its own, I trust that will not be too much difficulty. But there

6 are demands which arise on the time of Judges in other matters, and this

7 is one, and it is of some urgency. So we will not be sitting after today

8 until Thursday of next week.

9 We adjourn now and resume at a quarter to 1:00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Apostolski.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Good afternoon, Witness Mario Jurisic.

16 A. Good day.

17 Q. My name is Antonio Apostolski, and together with my colleague,

18 Jasmina Zivkovic, we appear for Mr. Johan Tarculovksi.

19 Today, I will ask you questions related to the events in Ljuboten

20 in August 2001. I would also like to warn you, I speak Macedonian

21 language and that is the language in which you will be answering your

22 questions, so please wait for the interpretation to finish and only then

23 answer my questions to facilitate the work for the interpreters.

24 A. Very well.

25 Q. You were a commander of the 2nd Company of the 3rd Guardist

Page 3368

1 Battalion in the 1st Guardist Brigade; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Your deputy was Darko Brasnarski; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The 3rd Guardist Battalion was composed of three infantry

6 companies and one battery. Commander was Mitre Despodov and his deputy,

7 Sasha Isovski; is that correct?

8 A. It is correct. Yes, it's correct.

9 Q. The 1st Company was stationed at Brodec, and the company commander

10 was Saltamarski, Zoran; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, Saltamarski, Zoran; yes.

12 Q. The 3rd Infantry Company was stationed at Rastak, and the

13 commander was Ferdo Pavlov; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The commander of the battery was Nikolce Grozdanov [sic]; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The battalion command was stationed at the school in the village

19 of Ljubanci; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It was located at the school, and you frequently visited the

22 command, for meetings with the commander, Mitre Despodov; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So you frequently went to the village of Ljubanci and you know it

25 well?

Page 3369

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In the village of Ljubanci, there is a football stadium or

3 football playing field. Do you know about that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it correct that it is at quite a distance from the school,

6 where the command was stationed?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

9 the Exhibit P296.

10 Q. Towards the middle of this sketch, can you see a place marked with

11 "S-C-H-O-O-L," "School" in English?

12 A. Yes, I saw it.

13 Q. Can you see that next to it, from the left-hand side of it, there

14 is the football field, as it is written?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct that there is no football field there at that

17 location, it is not where the football field in the village of Ljubanci is

18 located?

19 A. I have a problem with the orientation on this map.

20 Q. At the bottom of the map is the road to Radisani, as you can see.

21 At the right-hand side of the map, there is the road to Ljuboten. To the

22 left is the road towards Pobozje. The football field would be located at

23 the other side of the street, across the street from the school. Is this

24 correct that this is not the location of the football field in the village

25 of Ljuboten?

Page 3370

1 A. Give me just a minute to focus on it. In my personal conviction,

2 the football field drawn here is a mistake.

3 Q. Very well, thank you. Could you explain to us where is the

4 football field actually located? Where on this map would it actually be

5 located, in your opinion, from the school?

6 A. It should be to the right from the school.

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could I ask for the

8 assistance of the usher to help the witness use the stylus and mark the

9 location of the football field.

10 A. Roughly here. I can't be more precise because this is a sketch,

11 but it should be somewhere here [indicates].

12 Q. Very well, thank you.

13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness has

14 marked in red the location of the football field.

15 Your Honours, could this photograph be received in evidence?

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 2D28, Your Honours.

18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation].

19 Q. You stated that on August 10, 2001, when returning from their

20 shift, eight soldiers were killed and eight were wounded. The soldiers

21 were members of your company. Is it correct that the ambush was organised

22 by the terrorist group NLA?

23 A. 100 per cent, I'm sure it was.

24 Q. Is it correct that the NLA has perpetrated similar terrorist acts

25 whereby there were Macedonian soldiers killed?

Page 3371

1 A. Yes, several such acts.

2 Q. Is it correct that after such terrorist acts were carried out, the

3 NLA members would withdraw to settlements inhabited by Albanian population

4 in order to mingle with the civilian population and it was part of their

5 tactics and strategy?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct that also before the terrorist attack of August 10,

8 2001, there were provocations directed towards the army, there was

9 constant firing from infantry weapons against the army members, those who

10 were under your command?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you receive the information -- those informations from your

13 subordinate officers?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When asked by my learned colleague Residovic, you answered that

16 after the terrorist attack you found a large quantity of weapons,

17 explosives, Zoljas and other military equipment in the vicinity of the

18 village of Ljuboten and that there is a report on that; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

21 1D8D6 exhibit.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 1D86.

23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Can you see -- in the bottom left corner, could the Macedonian

25 page be moved upwards a bit, please?

Page 3372

1 Can you see, in the bottom left corner, that there is the name of

2 the commander of the 3rd Guardist Brigade, Major Mitre Despodov, the

3 battalion?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That is your commander. Can you read the list of the explosive

6 means and equipment found on the date of 14th of August, 2001, in the area

7 of Ljuboten village, Ljubotenski Bacila?

8 A. Yes. Yes, but could you please zoom it in a bit?

9 Q. Does this report correspond with the items found by you, that you

10 then transferred to your -- handed over to your commander, Mitre Despodov?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Very well, thank you. Now I will ask you questions related to

13 Sunday, August 12th, 2001.

14 Is it correct that the positions of your company were attacked

15 from the direction of the village of Ljuboten on Sunday around 8.00 in the

16 morning on the 12th of August?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it correct that your positions were attacked with mortar --

19 with machine-guns as well as snipers from the direction of the village of

20 Ljuboten?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it correct that you were attacked from the positions close to

23 the mosque in the village of Ljuboten?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it correct that there was fire against your positions from

Page 3373

1 machine-gun from the new houses at the northeastern edge of the village of

2 Ljuboten?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it correct that you personally saw the positions of the

5 terrorists in the village of Ljuboten, where the shooting against your

6 positions came from?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you use a binocular when observing those posts?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you see reflections from the fire coming out of the rifles?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Could you see, through the binoculars, people using weapons?

13 A. Yes, that I saw.

14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

15 the photograph ERN N005-7605.

16 Q. Is this photograph taken from the same direction where your

17 positions were located? Is this the position where your positions were

18 located?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you show me on this photograph -- can you pinpoint the

21 locations where the fire was coming from, from the village of Ljuboten, at

22 the positions of your company?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you say generally in which part of the village it is so that

25 this part of the village could be zoomed in so you can make your markings

Page 3374

1 more precise?

2 A. For the start, at least, enlarge the photo around the mosque.

3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could I ask the Court Officer to

4 zoom in to the mosque. A bit more. Thank you. It is fine now.

5 Could you move back to the left a bit now? Fine now.

6 Q. Could you mark the location where the fire was coming from against

7 your position from the village of Ljuboten, could you circle it?

8 A. Could I indicate several positions where the fire was coming from?

9 Q. I would like to ask you to mark all the positions where the fire

10 was coming from and which you have seen.

11 A. I will now mark the positions regarding which I'm 100 per cent

12 certain that fire was coming from, fire against us. [Marks] These lines at

13 the bottom that I'm drawing was where they would move. This is generally

14 where the terrorists would move when they were running away.

15 Q. Could you please make a single line and then mark that line with

16 the number "1"?

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And could you make an arrow to indicate where they were moving

19 towards?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Could you please use number "2" to mark the circle that you drew?

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And could you please explain to us what was there inside that

24 circle?

25 A. It was a machine-gun, as far as I can remember at the moment. It

Page 3375

1 was rather active against us, and certain groups of - as far as I'm able

2 to remember now - of about five people in black uniforms were running from

3 there, and they would then be deployed across the line that I drew here,

4 logically, because from up where we were located, when we found out that

5 they were shooting from here [indicates]. They would be an easy mark, so

6 it is only logical that they would run away and deploy around that area.

7 Q. Could you mark another location, another position, with the number

8 "3"?

9 A. It was like this: There was one position in the vicinity of the

10 mosque. I can't remember which exact house, but I will mark the general

11 region where it was located, either a sniper or a machine-gun. Somewhere

12 here was it [marks].

13 Q. Could you mark it? Yes, thank you.

14 A. And I could point another position. It is a bit further away from

15 us, but there was a very active fire coming from there [marks]. It was

16 this window of this house. I remember this 100 per cent.

17 Q. Can you mark it with the number "4"?

18 A. [Marks] So these are the several activities that I could remember

19 at this moment, while from this line, from the line number 1, there was a

20 very active fire coming, very active.

21 Q. The item 4 marks two houses. Was there fire coming from the both

22 houses?

23 A. I think from the upper one, from the new houses next to the road,

24 the upper one in the circle.

25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

Page 3376

1 Your Honours, could I seek to tender this photograph into

2 evidence?

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 2D29, Your Honours.

5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Is it correct that you received an order from your commander,

7 Mitre Despodov, and you acted, with your weapons, against those positions?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you consider them to be legitimate targets, these positions?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it correct that despite the actions with the machine-guns, some

12 individuals from the army were also using their personal weapons to fire

13 at these positions?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, not "despite"

15 but "apart from."

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You told me that Brasnarski, Darko, was your deputy.

19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation].

20 Could the witness please be shown 65 ter 00769.3?

21 THE INTERPRETER: And another interpreter's correction. In 75.16,

22 it should be "mortars" and not "machine-guns."

23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to the

24 second page of the Macedonian version.

25 Q. Do you see, at the bottom, the signature of Lieutenant Darko

Page 3377

1 Brasnarski? Is that your deputy?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we now turn back to the

4 first page of the Macedonian version? This is a report related to the

5 combat activities on August 12, 2001.

6 Q. In this report or notice - I can read it to you - Darko Brasnarski

7 says:

8 "On the day of August 12th, 2001, in performing the regular tasks

9 concerning the organisation of work during the day, we were informed,

10 around 8.00 a.m., that at the check-point Smok, machine-gun and sniper

11 fire was opened from the village of Ljuboten. With the company commander,

12 Lieutenant Jurisic Mario, we immediately went to the check-points. I went

13 towards the check-point Bomba and the commander towards the check-point

14 Smok. When I went to Bomba, I received the task to prepare for any action

15 that was about to follow, whereby I started the preparations. During that

16 time, shots could still be heard from the village of Ljuboten towards the

17 position Smok, and vice versa. Around 9.00, the mortar battery started to

18 fire against the targets in the village of Ljuboten in support to our

19 position.

20 "Around 9.30, later sniper fire was opened against the position at

21 B1 and a helmet was hit and punctured which was located on top of the

22 sandbags."

23 Does this report correspond to the information you had regarding

24 that date, August 12th, 2001?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3378

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

2 this report into evidence.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 2D30, Your Honours.

5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

6 65 ter 00769.4.

7 Q. Could you please look at the second paragraph. First, in the

8 bottom right corner there is the language: "Commander of the MFB, Captain

9 Grozdonovski, Nikolce." Is it correct that he was the commander of the

10 mortar battery?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This a report on combat activities on August 12, 2001. Do you see

13 paragraph 2 in the Macedonian version, which starts with: "After ..."

14 "After I carried out the necessary preparations, four of my

15 soldiers and me occupied the observation point at around 8.30. At that

16 point, the combat was still going on. Observing the village, I

17 established that from around the region of the church, terrorists were

18 opening fire. From around the old house, around 100 metres below the

19 mosque, there was probably sniper fire coming, and above the mosque in the

20 new four houses, in two next to one another, there was a machine-gun

21 firing at us. Then I informed the commander about the situation and he

22 ordered me to use several shells from the 120-millimetre mortars to

23 destroy the targets. And between 900 and 1000 hours we fired several

24 mines around the church, we fired eight mines -- we fired five mines

25 against the sniper and I fired three mines against the machine-gun. In

Page 3379

1 total, I fired 16 120-millimetre shells against the combat activities in

2 the area of the village of Ljuboten."

3 Does this correspond to the information that you possessed about

4 August 12th, 2001, in the village of Ljuboten, and your views on it?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this report into

7 evidence.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 2D31, Your Honours.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours and witness, Mario

11 Jurisic, I have no further questions for you, and this is where I end my

12 cross-examination.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Apostolski.

14 Ms. Motoike.

15 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

16 Re-examination by Ms. Motoike:

17 Q. Mr. Jurisic, earlier this morning you were shown a document, and

18 my colleague quoted from it. It is now referred to as 1D97, for the

19 record, and it was on page 29 of the transcript of today.

20 My colleague read out the portion that said, basically, it was a

21 piece of legislation: "Among other competencies of the President is to

22 order use of the police to carry out military tasks in a state of war."

23 Do you remember that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. My question to you is: In 2001, had an official state of war been

Page 3380

1 declared?

2 A. I believe no.

3 Q. On page 47 of today's transcripts, you also indicated that you had

4 visited the town of Ljuboten I believe it was sometime in 2001. Could you

5 please tell us around when that visit occurred?

6 A. The last one was in cooperation with the local population to

7 discover the cause for the disruption of their life, for the killing of

8 the calf, and to discover the possible reasons for it. This was sometime

9 in the month of June.

10 Q. And besides the walls around some of the homes that you've

11 described already to us, when you went into the village, did you see any

12 trenches or bunkers?

13 A. No, I could not see because it was not possible to see because of

14 the walls.

15 Q. And on page 57 of today's transcript, you were also asked a

16 question by my colleague. And after being asked the question, you agreed

17 that based on orders you had looked at previously about the defence of

18 Skopje, and the information that you had received about the persons who

19 went towards the village after the mine had exploded, you indicated that

20 that would represent a legitimate basis for you and other security forces

21 to carry out a search of the village and apprehend these terrorists. Was

22 such a search carried out by your particular battalion, to your knowledge?

23 A. No.

24 Q. On page 59 of today's transcript, you also were shown a photograph

25 with some expended casings. Do you remember that?

Page 3381

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were asked some questions with respect to the location of

3 these particular casings, and that photograph, for the record, I believe,

4 is P5. My question is: You said that it would depend on -- the position

5 of the casings would depend on where the shooter was aiming. I guess my

6 question to you would be: What would happen if the person who was

7 shooting had another person standing next to them to the right, is it

8 possible that casings could bounce off that person and end up in a

9 different location than one would normally expect?

10 A. Can you please repeat the question?

11 Q. You said that -- well, I guess my question is simply this: If a

12 person was shooting from that particular type of weapon that you've

13 already described, the casings go to the right, you said, the expended

14 casings. If someone was standing to the right of the shooter, is it

15 possible that casings could bounce off the person standing to the right

16 and end up in a different location than one would normally expect?

17 A. It is possible.

18 Q. On page 54 of today's transcript, you also made reference to the

19 mine explosion and that your positions were being fired upon on 10 August

20 after this explosion. Could I ask you, how far is the location of where

21 this mine exploded in relation to Ljuboten?

22 A. I cannot tell you precisely the distance. I don't know. I don't

23 know the distance. One would have to measure it on the map.

24 Q. Can you give an approximation of the distance at all?

25 A. I could perhaps say between 500 metres and one kilometre, but I'm

Page 3382

1 not sure.

2 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we please show the witness what's already been

3 admitted as P293. For the record, it's page 6 of the court binder.

4 Q. Mr. Jurisic, do you recognise the area that's depicted in this

5 particular photograph?

6 A. Very well.

7 Q. And there appear to be, in the photograph -- there's a crossroads

8 where there's a white -- it appears to be like a wall that's in the middle

9 part of the photograph. Is that the area where the explosion of the mine

10 occurred?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you stated that there was fire against your positions from

13 mortars and weapons from NLA positions after the mine exploded. By "your

14 positions," do you mean the area that's depicted in this photograph, that

15 is, where your injured soldiers were?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did your Smok and Bomba positions also receive grenade fire at

18 that particular time?

19 A. I cannot recall because there was a lot of confusion going on and

20 I could not say. Everything which happened in other positions, I do not

21 know. I was concentrating on this segment here.

22 Q. In relation to this photograph, would your Smok and Bomba

23 positions be depicted, if it was on the photograph, be depicted towards

24 the top of the photograph, in the area?

25 A. They would not be at the top of the photograph.

Page 3383

1 Q. Could you tell us, please, in what direction those positions were

2 in relation to the photograph? Would they be to the left or to the right

3 or towards the bottom?

4 A. The upper part of the picture, in the middle, where the ridges

5 come together in this direction [indicating], but much lower. Since this

6 is a hill and there's a downwards slope towards Ljuboten, therefore the

7 positions were up the ridge, along the ridge which you see on the right

8 side.

9 Q. They are not depicted in the photograph; is that correct?

10 A. No, they are not depicted.

11 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you very much. I have nothing further.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Motoike.

13 Well, that is a quicker ending than we had anticipated.

14 You'll be pleased to know, Mr. Jurisic, that that completes the

15 questions that will be asked of you in this matter. The Chamber would

16 thank you for your attendance in The Hague and the evidence you have

17 given, and you may of course now return to your home and ordinary

18 activities.

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber, unless there is any other matter, will

21 now adjourn, and we'll resume on Thursday of next week. I believe it is

22 at 9.00 on Thursday.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 1.34 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

25 the 12th day of July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.