1 Wednesday, 18 July 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 Good morning, General. The affirmation you made at the beginning
8 of your evidence still applies.
9 Ms. Residovic.
10 WITNESS: RISTO GALEVSKI [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
14 Q. Good morning, General Galevski.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. Let me remind you that we started discussing with the commissions
17 yesterday as a method of work and you said that there was standing
18 commissions that were envisioned with the rule-books and as well as ad hoc
19 commissions. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is it true, General, that these ad hoc commissions were linked to
22 the discretionary estimate of the minister in reviewing certain issues and
23 were not a legal obligation of the minister. Is it correct?
24 A. Exactly.
25 Q. If -- and if someone were to claim that the establishment of the
1 commission that you were a member of since August 13, 2001, was a
2 disciplinary responsibility of the minister, that would also not be true.
3 Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As far as I remember, you said yesterday that depending on the
6 issue that the -- the commission was established for, they would be
7 lasting for a shorter or longer period. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Is it correct that these commissions were actually with a certain
10 purpose with the decision that they were established with, a task that was
11 assigned by the minister to review or to decide upon. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The standing commissions have -- had an established manner of
14 work. They are rules of procedure and rule-book according to which they
15 worked. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The ad hoc commissions were agreeing upon their method of work by
18 themselves and actually that work and the method of work of those
19 commissions was not envisioned in any rule-book. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, exactly. In principle, the basic rule that's applicable the
21 ministry must be obeyed.
22 Q. Thank you. General, I would like to ask you now to take the
23 binder again, binder number 1 and to look at the document found in tab 37.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is P381, and we
25 registered it as 65 ter 1D476, 1D4300, while the English version was
2 Q. General, the Prosecutor showed you this decision yesterday, a
3 decision to establish the headquarters of the operative action Ramno
4 dated 29th of May, 2001. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes, I remember.
6 Q. And as far as I remember, you said that this operative action was
7 established even earlier?
8 A. Yes. There was a similar decision made by the previous minister,
10 Q. Please turn to the document found in tab 38. That is 65 ter
11 1D477. The page is 1D4304. The English page is 1D4306.
12 Do you see the document?
13 A. Yes, I see it.
14 Q. In the left upper corner of the document you can see that this is
15 a decision passed by the Ministry of Interior on 7th of March, 2001, and
16 if you turn to the second page, that is 1D4305, and the English version is
17 1D4307, as you just said, this is a decision passed by the Minister Dosta
18 Dimovska. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. At the first page in item 4, again your name Risto Galevski is
21 written in the capacity as the deputy and secretary of police. Is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So as you explained to the question of my colleague the
25 Prosecutor, these headquarters of commission of the operative action Ramno
1 was established to organise, manage and coordinate certain measures and
2 activities linked to this operative action, and if I were to suggest to
3 you that that meant that you were supposed to gather information related
4 to the condition of the crisis, about the attacks of the terrorist
5 organisations that already started in January, that would actually be the
6 basic task of this headquarters. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is correct.
8 Q. If I were to ask you about the methods of work of the operative
9 action Ramno, would it be correct if I were to say that since -- since the
10 start of this action all the bodies of the state and national security
11 were obliged to send to the headquarters information that would relate to
12 the behaviour of the NLA and the other terrorist groups in a summarized
13 version or found through direct information through Official Notes or
14 telegrams, if some event would happened in the field. Is that correct?
15 A. Exactly.
16 Q. Would it be correct that after that the expert staff that was
17 serving the headquarters would make information to all of you that are
18 listed here would provide information about some information that were
19 important for this operative action and that information would then be
20 sent to you as members of the headquarters of the operation action Ramno.
21 Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As a headquarters of Ramno, you would later be informing the
24 minister about the most important events. Isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is correct.
1 Q. If I were to say that all the information from the field were
2 neither reaching nor it was possible to reach the minister but only the
3 summary information speaking about the most important events, then this
4 statement of mine would be true, because it would be impossible for the
5 minister to receive all the information coming from the fields.
6 A. Exactly.
7 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to ask you now to look at the
8 document in tab 40. Tab 40, that is 65 ter 1D479.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before that, Your Honours, I would
10 like to ask -- I would like seek to tender this document about the
11 establishment of the headquarters of Ramno, 65 ter 1D477.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D112, Your Honours.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I would like to ask you now to see this document 65 ter 1D479
16 numbered in Macedonian 1D4312 and the English version is 1D4314. That is
17 a decision of the Ministry of Interior dated 18th of June, 2001.
18 General, it says here that minister Boskoski, on 18 June 2001,
19 passed a decision to establish a commission to investigate the legitimacy
20 of claims by ethnic Albanian residents of the Republic of Macedonia that
21 members of the Ministry of the Interior were exceeding their authority?
22 You can see that, right?
23 A. Yes, I can see it.
24 Q. And in item 1 we can see Major Zoran Jovanovski who at that time
25 was your deputy. Isn't it correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. In the other version, in the English page 1D4315 -- it is 5, all
3 right. This is my mistake.
4 Basically the tasks are set forth as well as the reasons because
5 of which the minister establishes this commission. Isn't that correct?
6 A. It is correct.
7 Q. This is one of the commissions that was of a standing character, a
8 more permanent character, so to say?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. At the question of the Prosecutor you responded that the minister
11 was -- had established the committee to investigate these cases and you
12 said that this request to report all these violations committed by the
13 police were also published publicly. Is this commission that was
14 established by the minister and which was of a more permanent character?
15 A. Yes, I can recall now that there was an announcement in the media
16 that such a working group had been established and the committee whereby
17 we called the citizens to report on all the potential violations by the
19 Q. I would like to ask you to come closer to the microphone, please,
20 and to speak up a little bit for the interpreters.
21 A. All right.
22 Q. So as one of the measures that was to prevent any abuse of the
23 police or other authorised officials, the minister, after the first
24 information that is happening within the Ministry of Interior had
25 established such a commission in order to provide an opportunity to the
1 citizens to openly report on any violation committed by the police. Isn't
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is correct.
4 Q. And he did it very -- very soon after he became a minister in May
5 2001. Isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
8 tender this document in evidence as a Defence exhibit.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As Exhibit 1D113, Your Honours.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I would like to ask you now, General, to look at the document
13 found in tab 41. That is 65 ter 1D480, 1D4316, the English version is
15 General, is it correct that on the 25th of June there were a
16 spontaneous protest in Skopje in which parts of the police on the reserve
17 forces participated as well as part of reserve forces of the army as well
18 as a number of citizens from Skopje?
19 A. Of course I remember that, because in my career I've never seen
20 more people gathered at one place.
21 Q. We can see this decision from 26th of June, so just one day later
22 after these events whereby the minister establishes a commission to
23 determine the reasons, the number of participants, the purpose, and the
24 manner in which this public unrest was held at the night of 25th and 26
25 June, 2001.
1 Would you agree with me that the minister immediately reacted at
2 the situation that took place with these kind of a behaviour of the
4 A. Yes, he reacted immediately.
5 Q. From the composition of the commission, Goran Mitevski, Jordan
6 Arsovski and Zoran Dandarevski, could you agree with me that the
7 minister considered that the most responsible persons in the ministry
8 must take on this task and see why this protest of citizens
10 A. Yes, it is correct.
11 Q. On the next page in item 3, this is 1D4317 and the English version
12 is 1D4319. The commission was assigned a very short deadline to submit
13 the preliminary information to the minister, meaning on the 29th of June,
14 2001. Would you agree with me that this would be the commission that had
15 a specific task and was supposed to carry out that task in a rather short
16 period of time?
17 A. It is true that this deadline was quite short.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender
19 this document as a Defence exhibit as well.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D114, Your Honours.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I would like to ask you, General, now to look at the document in
24 tab 42. That is 65 ter 1D483, 1D4328, and the English version is 1D4330.
25 General, is it correct that already at the beginning of the crisis
1 through various terrorist attacks there were a number of large crimes
2 committed that is necessary to immediately investigate all these crimes
3 regardless of the fact who committed them and who were the subjects of
4 that perpetration?
5 A. Yes, exactly.
6 Q. I would like to ask you to look at this decision that was on 29th
7 of May, 2001 passed to establish a Working Group and in Article 1, as we
8 said, the task was set forth for this Working Group and it was decided to
9 establish a Working Group to gather evidence for committed war crimes in
10 the territory of the Republic of Macedonia, and we can see what was the
11 composition of that commission of this group here.
12 If you look at the exhibit in tab 43, which is 65 ter 1D482,
13 1D4324. That is a decision on amendments to the decision for
14 establishment of the Working Group. We can see in the first Article that
15 is related to this Working Group that we already saw before so it is the
16 Working Group established on the 29th of May, 2001. That is visible in
17 item 1.
18 Do you see that document?
19 A. Yes, I see it.
20 Q. So it is obvious from item 1 that this decision from 29 May 2001
21 number 16.1-16711/1 from 29th of May and 24th of June 2001 is again
22 amended in certain provisions. Certain persons have been changed in the
23 committee -- in the commission.
24 May I ask you, sir, whether it would be correct that the Minister
25 Boskoski was very often, due to dissatisfaction of the results of some of
1 the members of the commission, was making amendments and giving incentives
2 to the commission to work as successfully as possible. Is this your
3 knowledge about the manner of the work of the minister in 2001?
4 A. Yes, it is probably like that. Although I have never heard such a
5 comment personally by the minister -- from the minister.
6 Q. But both these documents, the first and the second one, speak that
7 the minister have been always thinking it is necessary to investigate all
8 the individual cases of war crimes committed in the Republic of
9 Macedonia. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is correct.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask to tender
12 these two exhibits 1D483 and 1D482 to be admitted as Defence exhibits.
13 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1D483 will become Exhibit 1D115; and 65 ter
15 1D482 will become Exhibit 1D116, Your Honours.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I would like to ask you, General, now to look at the documents in
18 tab 44. That is 65 ter 1D485, and the number is 1D4334, and the English
19 version is 1D4335. This is a decision dated 27th of January 2002, and you
20 can see there by the composition of the -- of this Working Group. Could
21 you tell us who Refet Elmazi is?
22 A. Refet Elmazi was at that time and is even now a deputy minister
23 for the interior and he is an ethnic Albanian by his ethnic background.
24 Q. And as you can see, the task of this Working Group was to
25 investigate some of the circumstances that took place already in May 2001
1 about the disappearance of certain members of the Albanian ethnicity. Is
2 it correct, General, that this decision also confirms the fact that
3 Minister Boskoski, during his tenure as minister, was attempting to not
4 only through the normal lines of work that would -- that would be the
5 basic obligations of the Ministry of Interior that is attempted by
6 establishing certain Working Groups stimulate these bodies to conduct
7 their duties as the best -- as good as possible and to contribute for a
8 certain issue to be resolved. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. General, during the direct examination, the Prosecutor gave you
11 some information about the events in Ljuboten. Do you remember that?
12 A. Could you please repeat the question.
13 Q. The Prosecutor showed you two decisions of the minister to
14 establish committees to investigate certain circumstances of the Ljuboten
15 events. Do you remember that?
16 A. I think it was like that.
17 Q. I would like to ask you for you to be shown Exhibit P73.
18 This decision, as we saw earlier, was passed by the Minister
19 Boskoski on the 13th of August, 2001. So immediately after the Ljuboten
20 events. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And as you state the earlier, members of the committee were the
23 most responsible persons, officers of the ministry at the time. Is that
25 A. Exactly.
1 Q. And such selection made by the minister was justified because he
2 believed that these could use his -- each of them could use his own line
3 of command to make the entire MOI investigate this event into the most
4 efficient and best possible way. Is that so?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And as you saw earlier in any -- any decision establishing a
7 committee would set forth the task, and in item 2, this committee was
8 given the task that on the basis of data, reports and other available
9 material of the services of the Ministry of Interior as well as on the
10 basis of information learned from interviews with the members of the MOI
11 would review the circumstances and analyse the activities under taken by
12 the security organs. This was the task of the committee whose member you
13 were. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I would like to ask you now to show the witness the document
16 marked for identification --
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If the Prosecutor could help me,
18 this is the decision establishing a committee of 7th of March, 2003. This
19 is, I think, P379, MFI.
20 I need the decision. The entire document is under this number,
21 but I would like to see N000-8907, so the page that shows the decision.
22 Q. This decision was shown to you in the course of the
23 examination-in-chief. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I would like to ask to turn to the next page of this document,
1 N000-8908. And in this item II, the minister, Hari Kostov, sets forth the
2 task for this committee. He then ordered, this could be seen in the third
3 line, the last three words in Macedonian, it to establish the composition
4 and the capacity of the unit that took action in the aforementioned
5 period, including the identification of each of the members of the unit
6 individually to establish the reasons and responsibilities for the human
7 casualties and the material damage in order to establish the truth about
8 the aforementioned events, to investigate the use of legal powers of the
9 unit as well as to identify the consequences of the action that was
10 carried out.
11 In the next paragraph it is stated that they need to take into
12 account the findings and the reports from the forensic medicine institute,
13 and in the next paragraph, they also have the task to establish the
14 responsibility for the action that was carried out.
15 Is my interpretation of the task given to this committee correct?
16 A. I understood -- I was reading what was written and it is not
17 correct. This committee could not establish the responsibility. It could
18 only raise the initiative to establish. It would be another committee
19 that would actually establish the actual responsibility. Otherwise,
20 everything else is correct.
21 Q. And as we saw in the first page of this decision, this decision
22 was passed on the 7th of March, 2003. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, you can see it from the document.
24 Q. So it was passed after the exhumation and the post-mortem of the
25 people in the village of Ljuboten. Is that correct?
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. So it was passed after the forensics medicine institute had the
3 findings about the identity of the people killed, the way in which they
4 were killed, and regarding other circumstances that could have been
5 ascertained through the post-mortem. Is that correct?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. Is it correct, General, if I say that therefore the task of the
8 committee and the circumstances and the possibilities for the committees
9 were completely different?
10 A. Of course they were completely different from one another.
11 Q. Thank you very much. Before I continue with other questions, I
12 would like to ask that the document we discussed with the witness a moment
13 ago 65 ter 1D458 in tab 44 is also received as a Defence exhibit.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D117, Your Honours.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. General, I would like to ask you now about something completely
18 different, and actually it might already be clear, but I would like to
19 repeat it.
20 Is it correct that all persons of full age, once they serve
21 conscription military service, have their reserve military deployment
23 A. It is correct.
24 Q. And that deployment position could be within the army of the
25 Republic of Macedonia or in the police or in civilian protection. Is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes. All police reservists are essentially within the reserve
3 forces of the army.
4 Q. In a case of a state of war, state of emergency or when the
5 security situation is under risk, then the reserve forces are called. Is
6 that correct?
7 A. It is correct.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have difficulties understanding
9 what the witness says, so if he could speak up a bit, please.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We have been warned again. Could
11 you please speak up more clearly. It was translated now, but I would like
12 to ask you to speak more clearly in the future.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do my best.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And as you stated when we were looking at the chart of the
16 organisation chart of the Ministry of Interior and you testified there is
17 defence preparation department within the ministry and at times of peace
18 it also performs the planning and the training for the reserve forces. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. There is also a general act establishing the way in which the
22 reserve forces are called, and this part of the activities of the Ministry
23 of Interior is also regulated by a rule-book?
24 A. Exactly.
25 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 45.
1 That is 65 ter 1D209, R042-4704 and the draft of the English translation
2 is -- no, I apologise. So we have another number, 1D2311 that is the
3 Macedonian, and the English is 1D2394.
4 Do you see the text published in the Official Gazette of the
5 Republic of Macedonia, that is the issue 9 of 1996. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The book of rules on the way of summoning and engaging members of
8 the reserve forces of the Ministry of Interior, it was adopted by the then
9 minister Ljubomir Frckovski. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the officers who are summoning the reserve forces have the
12 duty at the moment when the head of the state makes a decision that the
13 situation warrants summoning of the reserve forces and the minister then
14 orders summoning of the reserve forces of the police, then the workers who
15 work on the defence preparations do it in -- in -- according to this book
16 of rules. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it correct, General, that in 2001, after the call for
19 mobilisation, because the situation was insufficiently well understood by
20 the citizens at the very beginning the response to the mobilisation was
21 very poor, especially in the army?
22 A. Exactly.
23 Q. Is it correct, General, that if it would be necessary to increase
24 the number of the reserve forces in some municipality or in some region
25 that is at higher risk of crisis, then the competent body for defence
1 preparation of that municipality would need to request the Ministry of
2 Defence of that branch -- in that municipality, to be allocated additional
3 number of persons for the reserve forces of the police?
4 A. Yes, this is exactly the procedure.
5 Q. So am I right in saying that if the citizens of Macedonia of full
6 age who have served their conscription military service, if they would be
7 coming voluntarily to the police, although they were called volunteers,
8 they were not volunteers. They were reserve military conscripts, only
9 they would be in the ranks of other units; for instance the army. So if
10 such persons would say come to the police station to volunteer then the
11 police station would need to seek permission for them to be transferred
12 from the reserve forces of the army into the reserve forces of the
13 police. Is that so?
14 A. Yes, this is correct. There were thousands of people who were
15 standing in front of the police stations and asking to join the police, by
16 normally not -- of course, not all of them have been accepted.
17 Q. Thank you. Tell me now, General, is it correct that for someone
18 to become de facto and de jure member of the reserve forces of the police,
19 they would first need to be in the list of the reserve forces of the
20 police or transferred from the reserve forces of the army into the reserve
21 forces of the police?
22 A. It is correct.
23 Q. Then they would need to be given a uniform and weapons?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Apart from this, they would need to be registered in the list and
1 receive the salary that was envisaged for the reserve forces. They would
2 need to be issued an ID card for their membership in the reserve forces,
3 and they would need to be assigned to certain tasks in the police station,
4 or in any other body of the Ministry of the Interior. Only under those
5 circumstances or conditions a person could be considered a police
6 reservist. Is that correct?
7 A. Exactly.
8 Q. So if only one of these conditions is met, for instance, a uniform
9 is issued, or if only weapons were received from some police station, or
10 the fact alone that the people were involved in a combat or police action,
11 that in itself would not mean that the person is a member of the reserve
12 forces of the police and under your effective command and control. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. It is correct.
15 Q. The minister themself, regardless of whether it is the Minister
16 Boskoski or the minister before him or the current minister, has nothing
17 to do with establishing whether the persons should be in the reserve
18 forces, who are the people who would be in the reserve forces and whether
19 the conditions have been met for the persons joining the reserve forces.
20 Is that correct?
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 47.
23 That is P85, 0424706, Macedonian, 65 ter number. R 042470 -- 406-ET is
24 the English. This is the rule-book on the form and procedure to issue
25 special ID for the members of the police force -- reserve forces of the
1 Ministry of Interior. Do you see it?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And it was passed in July, 2001. It could also be seen on this
4 page. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it correct, General, that when you spoke a moment ago about
7 this huge protest of people on the 25th of June, 2001 in which also part
8 of the reserve forces of the police took part that then the minister,
9 considering such conduct of the reserve forces, passed a decision on
10 demobilisation but that already the next day the president of the state
11 performing his duty as a commander of the Armed Forces requested that this
12 decision is annulled. Do you remember that?
13 A. I think there was something of that sort, but I could not give you
14 a precise nature or confirmation, although there were exchanges back and
15 forth in the public, public pressures but I could not say with certainty.
16 Q. In order to refresh your memory, I would like to ask you to look
17 at the document in tab 48. That is 1D90, the Exhibit 1D90. 1D036 is the
18 page, and the English is 1D4038. This is the summary overview by the
19 Ministry of Interior, and in the middle here you see demobilisation of the
20 reserve forces. And in the previous page you can see that it is the date
21 29th of June.
22 It says here: "The minister of the interior Ljube Boskoski stated
23 at a press conference the members of the reserve forces of the police of
24 the Republic of Macedonia will be demobilised and withdrawn from the
25 check-points around Skopje, in order to allow the politicians to continue
1 the peaceful resolving of the problem."
2 I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 49, in
3 order to refresh your memory again. This is the Exhibit 1D91 page 1D4041,
4 and the English page is 1D4042.
5 It is stated here: "The police reserves are returning to the
6 check-points. The Ministry of the Interior withdraws the decision
7 demobilisation of the police reserve forces and ordered for remobilisation
8 which will be processed selectively. The remobilisation of the police
9 reserve forces is conducted upon a request of the commander in chief of
10 the Macedonian Armed Forces, Boris Trajkovski, due to the current security
11 situation in the country."
12 Do you remember now, General, that this decision was issued and
13 then withdrawn at the request of the president of the republic?
14 A. Thank you. Exactly. I think this was the same reason, if I may
15 be refreshed -- or if I may refresh my memory out loud, for the
16 misunderstanding of the quarrel between the Minister Boskoski and the
17 President Trajkovski.
18 Q. I would like to ask to go back to the Exhibit P85. That is in tab
19 47, and as we saw from this communication from the Ministry of Interior it
20 is indicated that the reserve forces will be redeployed again but on a
21 selective bases, considering that this rule-book established the duty that
22 all reservists need to have their ID in that sense. Do you agree with me
23 that this was also one of the measures that will make the distinction who
24 is a member of the reserve police forces and who isn't?
25 A. Yes, exactly. I remember well. Its purpose was to overcome
1 certain problems that existed before that in the reserve forces, so the
2 idea was to completely improve the situation with regards to the reserve
4 Q. During the examination-in-chief the Prosecutor showed you some
5 documents from the work of the other commission and among them was an
6 Official Note by Miodrag Stojanovski, if I remember the name well, and
7 your comment was that you learned about this for the first time when the
8 investigator of this Tribunal questioned you. Do you remember having been
9 shown something of the sort?
10 A. Yes, I remember.
11 Q. Were you then shown a list of some people who -- who were
12 allegedly issued weapons in PSOLO?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. However, are you aware that Miodrag Stojanovski was an officer,
15 the authorised officer in PSOLO, or are you not aware of this fact?
16 A. Yes, I know my colleague Miodrag also personally and I know that
17 he is administrator --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not sure about the last
19 part of the...
20 Could the witness be asked to repeat the final part of the
22 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... To get back on
23 the police graduation parade ground and lift your voice more. You are
24 speaking very quietly to yourself and the words are not coming across
25 terribly well. Thank you.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. My question was do you know Miodrag Stojanovski?
3 A. Yes, I know him.
4 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 51A.
5 That is 65 ter 1D493.1, page 1D4455, and the English is 1D4456.
6 This is a letter from the Ministry of Interior in response to the
7 request of the Defence of Mr. Boskoski to obtain certain information
8 related to the issuance of weapons from the police station PSOLO on the
9 25th and 26th of July. Considering that you were not shown the document
10 about the persons who were issued weapons, I will not do it now, but I
11 will tell you what was the response of the ministry to the request of the
13 In paragraph 3 it is stated: "The persons whose names are in the
14 tables represented by PSOLO were not police reservists. The persons
15 were -- the aforementioned persons were not paid salary. The Ministry of
16 Interior does not have any records that they had received training in
17 Idrizovo, the persons whose names are written in the table were not issued
18 police IDs."
19 General, if those persons, regardless of their identity, were not
20 meeting the conditions that were necessary for someone to become a
21 reservist in the Ministry of Interior, would you also agree that they were
22 not reservists in the Ministry of Interior?
23 A. Yes, I agree.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to mark
25 this document for identification.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D118, marked for identification, Your
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. General, I would like now to ask you to turn to another area which
6 is certainly of interest to be analysed before this Court; at least this
7 is the opinion of the Defence counsel.
8 Could you please tell me if the structure of the police after the
9 independence of the Republic of Macedonia, was this structure inherited
10 from the previous structure of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
11 A. Yes, mostly, yes.
12 Q. Is it correct, General, that even before it was dedicated special
13 care, that all members of different nations and minorities are adequately
14 represented within the Ministry of Interior?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. However, if we look at the percentage of individual minorities,
17 then we would see this representation was not adequate to the given
18 percentage of that minority in the Republic of Macedonia. Is this
20 A. Yes, I agree. You are reminding me of the time when I enrolled in
21 the police school, if you allow me to explain, my generation of 120 cadets
22 in the secondary police school. There were only seven to eight Albanians,
23 two to three Turks, and I don't remember well the numbers. But then I
24 came up -- when I was able, when I was in the position to get more
25 information about this representation in police, I noticed that there was
1 no such an interest at that time and it is after the conflict that this
2 interest increased, the interest in the minorities to be more represented
3 in these institutions increased.
4 Q. You responded to part of my question. As you said, at the time
5 there was no great interest on the part of the minorities. Do we speak of
6 the Albanian population, can we say that they mainly live in the north
7 western parts of Macedonia, in mountains, and they traditionally are --
8 that they traditionally are -- they traditionally have evolved in cattle
10 A. I think this was a case, especially during the time when we were
11 part a Yugoslavia.
12 Q. And would you agree with me, regardless of how difficult this
13 would be for the members of that population, that these were people that
14 at that time had the lower level of education and their tradition was not
15 such as to send children to higher schools, such as the police school or
16 army school and so on?
17 A. Yes, I agree with that.
18 Q. However, is it also correct that the Republic of Macedonia, after
19 its independence, has been aware of the fact that the minorities should be
20 more involved in the state institutions, and as a result of that, has
21 started to undertake measures to improve that situation?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Is it correct that these efforts have continued to increase when
24 after the elections in 1998 the coalition VMRO and two Albanian parties
25 came into power?
1 A. I could not be very precise as far as 1998 is concerned, but I
2 recall the year of 2000 when in the interior ministry a project evolved
3 related to employing about 250 Albanians.
4 Q. Now I will not make the next question because you responded
6 I will ask you to look at the document in tab 53, 65 ter 1D465,
7 page 1D47272, and English version 1D47274.
8 This document is also a document from the interior ministry from
9 the international affairs and European integration division. You can see
10 that this is a report, and this is negotiations regarding training for
11 newly recruited police officers in cooperation with the US embassy in the
12 Republic of Macedonia. Do you see this?
13 A. I see this report for the first time, though I knew this
15 Q. In paragraph 1 we can see that this meeting was held in order to
16 discuss the assistance and training of 500 newly recruited police officers
17 and the fifth line in Macedonian, we can see that the meeting was attended
18 by Colonel Galevski. Is this you?
19 A. Yes. This was -- this is me, but since here, I don't recall that
20 I participated to this meeting.
21 Q. This is why we have sometimes written documents that can remind
22 us. Thank you.
23 Now, please look at paragraph 2 of this document which says: "The
24 training programme is aimed at increasing the number of police officers
25 from ethnic minorities living in the Republic of Macedonia and priority
1 will be given to ethnic Albanian applicants. This programme is to be
2 completed by October 2002. The training will be performed successively in
3 groups of approximately 100 candidates."
4 Further on in line 1, the two last lines it says that the exact
5 number of -- of 100 candidates to be recruited in the first phase in
6 addition to public campaign of public information.
7 On page 1D4273 and 75, the English version, in the fourth indent,
8 it says that the training should start on July 1st, 2001, and should last
9 for 12 weeks, after which the newly trained police officers will need to
10 be deployed on the ground.
11 Does this report now remind you of the works you have been doing
12 at the beginning of 2001, together with the American minister of justice?
13 A. How wouldn't I recall, since I was the one to implement this in
14 the beginning of 2001.
15 Q. Is it correct, General, that before you have ever started with the
16 implementation of this program you have in fact started to implement it by
17 introducing mixed police patrols in mixed areas where Albanians -- where
18 there were Albanian population.
19 A. Yes. We did this as much as we could and where we could do it.
20 Q. However, is it correct that the attacks of extreme Albanian groups
21 in fact slowed down this procedure that you had established with this
23 A. Not only they slowed down the implementation, I think they managed
24 to interrupt this -- the implementation because a lot of Albanian police
25 officers probably frightened finding themselves in an uncertain situation
1 stopped coming to work. Some -- only a few of them came at work but they
2 didn't want to go to field works and some of them joined gangs in the
4 Q. Do you recall, General, that Ljube Boskoski, together with a
5 deputy minister, Albanian Refet Elmazi on March the 8th went to a border
6 village called Brest where here -- where such a police patrol office was
7 supposed to be established as a pilot one to bring to this population
8 humanitarian aid because it was attacked by these terrorist groups and
9 then at that occasion a policeman was killed?
10 A. Yes, I remember very well this event but I don't recall the date,
11 exactly whether it was the 8th. I know it was Spring 2001 and that at
12 that time I was still deputy to the under-secretary for police. The
13 initial plan was for me to head the police unit that would go there with
14 humanitarian aid, with clothes and food, and to establish in the village
15 of Gosince a temporary police station to keep order and peace in the
16 village of Gosince and the nearby villages due to the problems of the
17 Albanian population had from these terrorist groups, but then the plan
18 changed. My superior at the time Mr. Domcev [phoen] came and said that he
19 would go, because the police convoy would be also joined by Refet Elmazi
20 and the state secretary Ljube Boskoski.
21 Q. So this was the way in which these terrorist groups prevented or
22 from establishing order and peace and from involving more Albanians in the
24 A. Yes, that's correct, and I would add that I remember when about
25 30 -- that -- I remember that we included about 30 Albanians that went to
1 Gosince and to Brest at that time.
2 Q. However, is it correct, General, that immediately after the
3 signature of framework agreement you continued to implement the programme
4 that you had established before?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. Now I'd like to ask to you look at the document in tab 54. This
7 is 65 ter 1D4666, 1D427, the English 1D4277.
8 In this announcement, in the Vecer newspaper from September 3rd,
9 2001, in the left upper corner we see that the Ministry of Interior is
10 issuing a public announcement for recruitment of 100 trainee police
11 officers for an undefined work period. Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. This public announcement also says that the commission for the
14 recruitment will be established. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. This announcement was published also in Albanian newspapers and in
17 newspapers in Turkish languages. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, it's correct.
19 Q. If you look at the document in tab 55, 65 ter 1D467, 1D4279 we can
20 see here that the -- the announcement in one of the two languages. This
21 one is in Albanian language. Is that correct?
22 A. [No audible response].
23 Q. So in tab 55 --
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. I apologise, I was waiting for your reply because only your reply
1 enters the transcript, not your nodding.
2 Could you please look at 56 now. It's 1D468, and 4281 and the
3 Macedonian -- and the English, I'm sorry, is 4282. And can you see here
4 the same announcement published in Turkish language, because there is also
5 a Turkish minority in Macedonia. Is this correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. If you also look at the document in tab 57, you will see -- this
8 is 65 ter 1D469, 1D4283, and 4284. You can see that the assistant
9 minister sends this note and informs the police stations that an
10 announcement was published for their recruitment of 100 new police
11 officers. Is this correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Now I'd like to you look at a document tab 68. This is 65 ter
14 1D470, 1D4285 is the Macedonian version, and 1D4286 is the English
16 In this document, can you see that on September 13, while this
17 announcement was -- was published, a commission was established for the
18 admission of trainee police officers in the Ministry of Interior. Is that
20 A. Yes, it's correct.
21 Q. Is that correct that upon this announcement not 100 but 107
22 trainee police officers from -- proceeding from the minorities, most of
23 them Albanians, were employed in the Ministry of Interior?
24 A. 107 and 109, I may be mistaken. One or two of them very soon,
25 they left the training. They didn't pass a test, I think. Not -- they
1 were not mostly Albanian; all of them were Albanian.
2 Q. Is it correct that after this the training continued of the
3 remaining number of those foreseen by the programme within the academy
4 where you became a director later. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is correct. This process that was established continued
6 until its full completion.
7 Q. Is it correct, General, if I say that the -- the ethnic
8 representation or the unequal representation of minorities in the state
9 institutions including the interior ministry were not a reason for
10 terrorist groups to start attacks in the Republic of Macedonia since these
11 minority groups had their rights guaranteed and they were already
12 participating to ongoing programmes with the view of improving the
13 position of minorities in the country?
14 A. Yes, you are right.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I would like to
16 tender into exhibit one by one the documents that I have shown to the
17 documents [as interpreted] So far. This is first 65 ter 1D465, the report
18 on the programme by the ministry of justice and the American embassy.
19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D119, Your Honours.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then 65 ter 1D466. This is the
22 public announcement for the employment of 100 trainee police officers
23 published in Macedonian.
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D120, Your Honours.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then document 65 ter 1D467. This
2 is the announcement in Albanian language.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D121, Your Honours.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then document 65 ter 1D468, the
6 announcement in Turkish language.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D122, Your Honours.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then 65 ter 1D469, the letter of
10 assistant minister to all the police station sectors for the employment of
11 new police officers in the Ministry of Interior.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D123, Your Honours.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, finally, 65 ter 1D470,
15 decision to form a commission for admission of trainee police officers in
16 the Ministry of Interior.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D124, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Having got through that lot, Ms. Residovic, I
20 wonder whether this would be a natural moment to break.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We will
22 go to the other binder of documents. We have just completed this one.
23 JUDGE PARKER: We have been promoted to grade 2.
24 Very well. We will adjourn now and we will resume at 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.
4 Q. General, we have partly already talked about the situation as it
5 was in 2001 in Macedonia. You have testified also about certain terrorist
6 attacks and my question is whether it is correct that these attacks had
7 started already in January 2001.
8 A. Yes, that's correct. On 21st January, I think, this was the first
9 attack against the police station in Tearce.
10 Q. And after that terrorist attack other terrorist attacks followed
11 at other places as well. Is this correct?
12 A. Yes, it's correct.
13 Q. Most of the attacks or the most endangered areas were the area of
14 Tetovo, Kumanovo and Skopje. Is this correct?
15 A. Yes, it's correct.
16 Q. The sabotage terrorist groups attacked police stations and police
17 patrols, military facilities, journalist teams, workers going to work and
18 civilian population. Is this correct?
19 A. Yes, it's correct.
20 Q. And along these attacks, large part of Macedonian population that
21 lived in mixed areas were compelled to leave their homes.
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. You said before something about the Albanians in the police. Is
24 it correct that these groups used forceful methods against the Albanian
25 citizens demanding from them to -- for these civilian to offer them
1 support, and if they didn't, they were threatened?
2 A. Yes. We had such information that, in addition to terrorising the
3 non-Albanian population, the Albanian population was also terrorised.
4 They wanted at least one person of their familiar to be recruited in the
5 NLA and if they refused they were required to give a certain amount of
6 money. I wouldn't like to speculate. It was about five to six
7 Deutschemarks or five to 7.000 Swiss francs.
8 Q. You said a while ago, and I want to make now a general question,
9 is it correct that the members of this terrorist groups which later on
10 were named members of the NLA had a very cruel behaviour towards the
11 Albanians that were employed in Macedonian services or authorities in the
12 areas where they -- they were?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. There were some examples, I remember one
14 such example. They went once in the house of one of our colleagues,
15 police officer, he was required to be recruited. He refused and for a
16 while he was compelled to hide in the Tetovo police station.
17 Q. You might be aware that when Ljube Boskoski and the deputy
18 minister, Refet Elmazi were attacked during their visit to Brest in March
19 2001, their Albanian hosts, after this event, were also exposed to some
20 revengeful actions?
21 A. I was not directly informed about that, but later on I got such
23 Q. In the Ministry of Interior you had information that these
24 terrorist groups very often crossed the border with Kosovo and they were
25 also connected to the terrorist groups that conducted certain terrorist
1 activities in the south of Serbia around Podujevo and Presevo?
2 A. Podujevo. Yes, that's correct. In fact, they are the ones that
3 started the whole thing in Macedonia. They were only later joined by
4 people from Macedonia.
5 Q. If I were to say now, General, that in those attacks the NLA used
6 methods typical for other terrorist organisations, such as kidnapping,
7 helding hostage of civilians, both Macedonians and Albanians, kidnapping
8 and holding as hostages members of the Macedonian security forces, the
9 army and the police, and among them also members of the Albanian ethnicity
10 who were treated as traitors then that they physically ill-treated and
11 intimidated civilians, for instance, workers of Mavrovo [phoen] company,
12 then that they blackmailed and used other ways of intimidating the
13 population, that they were seizing and destroying the property of
14 Macedonians but also of a part of the Albanian population as well, that
15 with this intimidation they caused the population to move out,
16 displacement of population, that by force they restricted the right to
17 movement, that they mined and blocked roads, that they were organising
18 ambushes, that they would change into civilian clothes during the time
19 they were not actively involved in any action or immediately after the
20 action, would this summary that I've made of the modes and methods of
21 activity of the NLA, would correspond to what you have witnessed in 2001?
22 A. Yes, exactly. If you wish, I could give you a more precise
23 specific cases, but mainly what you stated is correct.
24 Q. Is it correct that towards the middle of 2001 the NLA started
25 presenting data about its alleged organisation and in that significantly
1 increasing its -- or presenting as greater their numbers and power,
2 speaking about brigades, headquarters, et cetera?
3 A. Yes, I believe this was their tactics of conduct in the field, and
4 in that way, they would provide an incentive for the members of the
5 Albanian ethnicity in Macedonia to join them, speaking about brigades, et
6 cetera, 112th, 116th Brigade, I don't know what else, to make it seem that
7 they are very powerful, very strong in numbers, very well equipped and
8 that -- that they will reach the goal that they have set for themselves
9 and that was seizing and then separating or cessation of a greater part of
10 the territory of Macedonia.
11 Q. And is it correct, General, that the Macedonian police often in
12 agreement with the representatives of the international community withdrew
13 from certain police stations in order to avoid casualties, especially
14 casualties in the civilian population?
15 A. Yes, precisely. There are numerous such examples, numerous
16 villages where this was -- this strategy was employed.
17 Q. So in this rough summary of the situation would it be correct that
18 the Macedonian public and the Macedonian population was not only surprised
19 by also shocked and placed in a very difficult situation, because they did
20 not expect this?
21 A. I don't think that the information were fully clear, and this is
22 why the public in Macedonia was so surprised and concerned.
23 Q. Actually, it would be difficult for anyone to expect that the
24 crisis from Kosovo would spill over to Macedonia, because Macedonia has
25 hosted, during the NATO attacks about 300.000 Albanians from Kosovo,
1 although it is a poor country and it could not provide a lot for its own
2 citizens. Is that correct?
3 A. It is very difficult for me to speak on this topic. It is not
4 only correct, it is it more than correct, because in 1999 I was -- after,
5 I was one of the heads in the police in the Ministry of Interior. We were
6 literally placed in the role of the service for the refugees from Kosovo,
7 and this is why it was very difficult for us when we experienced such a
8 feedback from that situation.
9 Q. And you certainly, because you were head of certain services in
10 the Ministry of the Interior, know that Ljube Boskoski, during that time,
11 was one of the coordinators who worked on the admission and security for
12 the refugees from Kosovo.
13 A. Yes. I know he held another job then before he was appointed a
14 minister in this bodies, committees, governmental committee, I don't
15 remember the exact office that he held at that time.
16 Q. In relation to this, is it correct that after the events of Kosovo
17 and the return of the Albanian population, the international community
18 gave a huge recognition to the Republic of Macedonia on several occasions
19 for the assistance that it offered then to both the Albanian population
20 and the forces of the international community?
21 A. Yes, precisely.
22 Q. Is it correct, General, that when the first casualties were caused
23 by these terrorist attacks gradually Macedonian population started
24 protesting, which made the public law and order situation in the country
25 even more complex?
1 A. Yes, it is correct, and it happened very often.
2 Q. And among first such big protests was the protest of tens of
3 thousands of people in Bitola in May and June 2001?
4 A. Yes, I remember. I was personally present in Bitola during the
5 first one.
6 Q. The police and you and the ministry supporting your forces in the
7 field undertook all measures to firstly prevent such situation and then if
8 the situation happens, to then undertake measures for the -- to avoid
9 repetition of such situation?
10 A. Yes, it is correct.
11 Q. And in relation to these, let me call them unfortunate events in
12 Bitola the SVR Bitola and the police organs have detained several dozens
13 of people who were violating public law and order and there were also
14 criminal reports or charges filed in relation to about 100 persons to the
15 competent Prosecutor's office. Are you aware of this?
16 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
17 Q. And as you stated at the beginning of this cross-examination that
18 you were enforcing the laws of the Republic of Macedonia, the criminal
19 charges were on the basis of crimes provided in the criminal code of the
20 Republic of Macedonia or the law on misdemeanours of the Republic of
21 Macedonia. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is correct.
23 Q. I would like to ask you now to look into the second binder. Have
24 you taken it? Because we have finished with the first one.
25 A. I think, yes.
1 Q. The document in tab 59 --
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would like to
3 request marking of this document for identification after it is shown to
4 the witness and later, according to the Rule 92 bis we will also submit to
5 the Court.
6 Q. You here the statement of Kristo Zdravkovski. Do you know who
7 Kristo Zdravkovski is?
8 A. Yes I know him personally.
9 Q. In the statement it is read: "I Kristo Zdravkovski, current head
10 of SVR Bitola, was head of SVR Bitola also in course of 2001, when, during
11 mass demonstrations in Bitola, public law and order was disturbed to a
12 greater extent. When many business and residence facilitates in the city
13 were arsoned and damaged. According to my recollection, the events took
14 place at the beginning of the month of May, and the month of June in 2001,
15 and took place for the duration of two days each.
16 In relation to these events SVR Bitola undertook appropriate
17 operative measures and activities as a result of which there was not a
18 single human casualty in the events, while there were some 2.000 or 3
19 citizens who took part of them. Furthermore, in the course of the
20 operative work, the SVR Bitola identified the perpetrators of criminal
21 offences pursuant to Article 292, in relation to the Article 288 of the
22 criminal code of the Republic of Macedonia as well as pursuant to Article
23 385 of the criminal code of the Republic of Macedonia.
24 As I remember, many criminal reports were filed against about 100
25 perpetrators for the stated criminal offences and those criminal reports
1 were processed by the public prosecutor's office in Bitola.
2 As I remember, the public prosecutor's office further processed
3 the criminal reports to the Basic Court in Bitola; however, after the
4 amnesty law entered into force in the Republic of Macedonia, the criminal
5 procedures were terminated.
6 Is this statement of Kristo Zdravkovski something that corresponds
7 to your knowledge about 2001 about the way in which the police reacted to
8 the disturbances of public law and order?
9 A. I fully agree with this text. I would also add that the police
10 was in a really dire situation, I would say to re-establish public law and
11 order because it needed a wall, more composed of humans or tampon zones in
12 order to protect the properties and the lives of several citizens of
13 Bitola who were targeted by the protesters.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have this document
16 marked for identification.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D125, marked for identification, Your
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I would like to ask you now, General, to look at the document in
22 tab 60, this is 65 ter 428, and let's look immediately at the page
23 N005-1053, and the English, 1053-ET.
24 This is -- it is still not on the screen. And I would like
25 N005-1503 --
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the number.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Earlier we discussed it and you answered several questions related
4 to the events of the 25th of June, 2001.
5 This is the analytics department of the Ministry of Interior for
6 the city of Skopje which has written the information about the events on
7 26th of June. In the last paragraph of this information, in the second
8 sentence the following is mentioned: "At 2340, the General Risto Galevski
9 addressed the present and called reservists to return to the places where
10 they were deployed and then he told the citizens that those who are
11 deployed as police reservists should go" --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Who had the status of police reservists,
13 interpreter's correction.
14 Q. [Interpretation] -- "should go to the corresponding police
15 stations and be activated."
16 Is this an information, General, which speaks about the event that
17 you testified about earlier where also the reserve forces of the police
18 participated as well as the reserve forces of the army of the Republic of
19 Macedonia with a large number of citizens?
20 A. Yes, it is correct.
21 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 61.
22 This is 65 ter 1D481. It is 1D4320, and the English is 1D4322.
23 And you see that this is an information coming from the Ministry
24 of Interior about the events which took place on the 25th of June, 2001,
25 in front of the parliament of the Republic of Macedonia. And I would like
1 to ask you to look together at paragraph 3. It says: "During the
2 aforementioned period of time, over a very brief period as a result of a
3 spontaneous reaction, the people gathered in front of the parliament were
4 joined by the citizens of the city of Skopje which had as a consequence an
5 enormous increase in the number of persons present, around 3.000 or 4.000
6 people. In the meantime the mass was joined by a smaller group of active
7 members of the police forces as well as a group of members of the army of
8 the Republic of Macedonia."
9 Is this what took place on that day, General?
10 A. Yes, only I don't agree with this information. I haven't seen it
11 then with the number of people. I believe it was far greater than three
12 or 4.000 people.
13 Q. And on the second page of this document, 1D4321, in the fourth
14 paragraph, again it is mentioned that at 2340 you addressed this mass of
15 people, and you tried to calm down the situation. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, this is correct.
17 Q. Is it correct, General, that at that moment there was a huge
18 dilemma present whether to use force against this protesters but that it
19 was decided and it was decided by the assistant for Skopje Etremov, the
20 director for the security of the public security bureau, that it could not
21 be done, because many of the protesters were armed and this would lead to
22 bloodshed. And this is why you personally tried to calm these mass of
23 people down. Is that correct?
24 A. Mainly, yes.
25 Q. And we saw a while ago the minister established immediately the
1 next day a group that was to investigate whether there were organisers to
2 this gathering, and if you recall, the final conclusion was that those
3 were spontaneous protests because of the way in which the members of the
4 NLA left Aracinovo at the moment when the army and the police would have
5 been able to completely free Aracinovo?
6 A. I'm not sure that I understood the question.
7 Q. Well, we will start again.
8 Is it correct that on the 22nd of June, in a joint action of the
9 army and the police, Aracinovo was virtually freed, but then NLA requested
10 cease-fire and upon a request of the NATO representatives, they asked that
11 they are left -- to leave the village. The authorities of the Republic of
12 Macedonia accepted this. They provided buses, but the NLA left the
13 village armed, and that was the immediate cause for these protests.
14 Have I refreshed your recollection, or do you think that there
15 were any other reasons that I failed to investigate yet?
16 A. Yes, I understood you now completely. This is correct. The
17 public was greatly disturbed when they heard that the police and the army
18 were withdrawing from Aracinovo and rumours were spread that the state
19 authorities, the high state authorities were actually traitors of the
20 Republic of Macedonia, that this was a treason, probably they were not
21 aware of the plans of the leadership and the activities under way at that
22 moment. Otherwise, the order to withdraw from Aracinovo, I received from
23 the Minister Ljube Boskoski personally.
24 Q. Is it correct, General, that on the 5th or 6th of June, somewhere
25 around that time, upon a proposal of the government of the Republic of
1 Macedonia, cease-fire was signed between the representative of the army
2 and the police, on the one hand, the Armed Forces of the Republic of
3 Macedonia and the representative of NATO who was supposed at that moment
4 to guarantee the cease-fire on behalf of the NLA.
5 A. It is correct. On the 5th of July, or the 4th, in the evening, I
6 received an order from the minister via the telephone to go to the
7 headquarters of the army of Republic of Macedonia that a statement needed
8 to be signed in relation to cease-fire, termination of the activities in
9 the field. And together with the head of the General Staff, Pande
10 Petrevski, we signed that statement. I think it was addressed to the NATO
11 representative at that time in Macedonia, Mr. Peter Faith, and some other
12 ambassador, I don't remember the name at the moment.
13 Q. Do you agree with me, General, that this decision of the
14 government of the Republic of Macedonia and the president of the Republic
15 of Macedonia who had previously tabled a long-term plan for a peaceful
16 resolution of crisis was a decision of strategic importance that obligated
17 the Ministry of the Interior to act accordingly?
18 A. Yes, of course.
19 Q. And could you say, because you were one of the signatories to this
20 agreement, that actually you did not accept, not then and not ever, accept
21 the NLA as the other party, and you never negotiated with them anything
22 and you never signed with them anything?
23 A. Yes, precisely.
24 Q. And is it correct, General, that even after that signing of the
25 agreement and the guarantee by NATO on behalf of the NLA, the NLA
1 continued to violate the cease-fire and there were numerous consequences
2 actually exactly during the period of cease-fire. Is that correct?
3 A. This is more than correct. Because the greatest losses and damage
4 were caused actually after the signing of that statement.
5 Q. I would like to ask to you look at the document in tab 64. This
6 is 65 ter 398, and it is dated 25th of July, 2001. That is page
7 N004-9892, Macedonian, while the English page is the same, only ET.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter will repeat the number because I
9 was not sure about it, 9812.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. General, this is an information from the SVR Skopje again, so
12 sector Skopje, department for analytics, and its subject is the security
13 situation in the city and why the region in the period from 1800 to 2400
14 hours on 25th of July, 2001.
15 My question is, General, is it correct that the protest of
16 citizens of Macedonia were increasingly taking place in the city of
17 Skopje, which created enormous difficulties in maintaining the public law
18 and order in the city?
19 A. It is correct. Almost constantly there would be a smaller or a
20 greater group that protested in front of the parliament, in front of the
21 government on a square or somewhere else.
22 Q. Is it correct that on the 25th of June but also in the protests
23 later, the police of Skopje tried to protect the parts of the city where
24 the Albanian population lived, so that these protests are not targeting
25 that population?
1 A. I remember precisely. On that evening, there were rumours in
2 front of the parliament that someone is trying to incite the Macedonian
3 population and make them cross the bridge towards the other side of the
4 river Varda, but in consultations with the head of the General Staff of
5 the Republic of Macedonia we undertook specific police measures and
6 activities. We organised cordons, human shields of police officers on the
7 bridges and we prevented the crowd from transferring to the other side,
8 and they were prevented in those intentions that were manifested.
9 Q. I will ask you now to look at the document in tab 65. This is 65
10 ter 1D475, page 1D4295, Macedonian, and the English is 1D4298. That is
11 also an information from the sector for police Skopje, analytics
12 department, and subject of this information as well, as you can see, is
13 protest of the citizens from the Tetovo villages where the citizens of
14 Skopje also joined several cars of civilians and of OSCE were damaged
15 around the city.
16 Page 1D4296 and page 1D4299 of the English version, we can see
17 that the police have taken an inventory in the city of Skopje of all the
18 facilities that were damaged as private property by the protesters. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If we look at the document that is in the tab 66, that is 65 ter
22 405, that is N004-9837, and the English version is the same number with
23 the addition of the ET.
24 This document also speaks about protests that have taken place on
25 the 8th of August this time in Skopje. And those were the protests of the
1 Tetovo residents as well as numerous citizens of the capital as well,
2 whereby also some facilities of the citizens have been damaged. Mostly
3 these were ethnic Albanian residents. Is that correct?
4 A. The protesters were Macedonians.
5 Q. And the damaged facilities?
6 A. I couldn't confirm, but their purpose was to damage the facilities
7 of the Albanians, but somehow they managed to damage some facilities that
8 belonged not only to the Albanians.
9 Q. Is it correct, General, that the police of the city of Skopje did
10 their best and have brought in a large number of persons who participated
11 in the damaging of the citizens' property and misdemeanour and other
12 measures have been taken against many of them as well as the looted
13 property was also seized from them, the property that was looted from the
14 damaged facilities.
15 A. Yes, that is true that the police did their best to carry out the
16 function, the task that was assigned to them.
17 Q. I would like ask to you look at document in tab 67. It is 65 ter
18 1D440. The page is 1D4043 in the Macedonian version and 1D4046 of the
19 English version.
20 Again, this is a document from the sector of the interior of
21 Skopje, dated 9th of August, 2001, and the subject is individuals who
22 violated the public law and order and committed robberies on 8th of
23 August, 2001.
24 General, is this information -- does this information contain
25 information about the measures that the Skopje police have taken after the
1 protests that we spoke about that was information contained in the
2 previous documents?
3 A. Yes, it is correct.
4 Q. In paragraph 1 it is visible that in the Centar and Bit Pazar
5 police station that a total of 44 persons have been brought in, and at
6 this as well as at the other pages, 1D404 and 1D405 in the Macedonian
7 version, and English page is 1D4047 and 4048. We can see that all the
8 persons that were brought there are listed and against whom some measures
9 have been taken. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask
12 now, since this last document that I showed, 65 ter 440, since it has not
13 been admitted in evidence, to be tendered as a Defence exhibit.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would also seek to tender the
16 document 65 ter 605 as a Defence exhibit.
17 MR. SAXON: Counsel may be referring to 405, I'm not sure.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 405.
19 I apologise, I was reading fast, so, Your Honours, as far as I
20 understood, you said that the first 65 ter 1D440 is admitted into
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 126, Your
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I now seek to tender as a Defence
25 exhibit document number 65 ter 405. That is the information about the
1 protests of the Tetovo residents in Skopje.
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 1D127, Your Honours.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would also seek to tender as
5 Defence exhibit, document 65 ter 475 of 25th of July. That is the
6 information about the protests of the Tetovo village residents protests.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D128, Your Honours.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I also seek to tender as Defence
10 exhibit 65 ter 398 which is the information about the security situation
11 in the city and the vicinity of the city.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D129, Your Honours.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I also seek to tender as Defence
15 exhibit document 65 ter 1D481, speaking about the information on the
16 events on the 25th of June.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D130, Your Honours.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. General -- I apologise. I was warned that there's one more
21 document to be tendered.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is document in tab 61.
23 Document 61 has already been admitted, but 65 ter 428 has not been
24 admitted. That is a second information about the events in front of the
25 Macedonian parliament of 26th of June, 2001, coming from the security
1 sector of Skopje.
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D131, Your Honours.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. General, in this time of a situation which was difficult -- in
6 which it was difficult to maintain the public law and order in the capital
7 and in the other areas, would it be true that -- that in the course of the
8 action to conquer the terrorist and diversion groups already in March the
9 army of the Republic of Macedonia joined as well?
10 A. Yes, they joined.
11 Q. Is it correct that during the first months the president of the
12 country as a supreme commander of the Armed Forces or -- issued orders
13 only to the army troops but given the complicated situation starting from
14 May, he started using his authority to ask and to issue orders to the
15 police forces as well?
16 A. Yes, I think there was misunderstandings about the competencies,
17 the rights and the -- and the authority, but the rights that are given to
18 the president of the country with the session of the Security Council, I
19 think that they found some legal basis to put the police to a grand extent
20 under his command as part of the Armed Forces of the Republic of
22 Q. When saying that, would my statement be correct that these
23 misunderstandings were because of the fact that the parliament did not
24 proclaim a state of war? In the given situation, it was necessary to
25 establish a single command and control so the president used his authority
1 deriving from the law on defence and was asking to put the police forces
2 under his command, was that the way in which this dispute was resolved?
3 A. Yes, exactly.
4 Q. So when your police forces, regardless whether those were the
5 Tigers or the posebna unit, when they participated in the fights against
6 Tetovo, Vaksince and other areas, then basically they were acting upon the
7 single command of the army. Is that correct?
8 A. Practically I couldn't say it was so, but together with the
9 military command we used to sit together and to work jointly. Also, the
10 question remained open who is superior to whom or who commands to whom.
11 Q. In mid year, in June, the Law on Defence was changed and then the
12 authority to use the police units in the combat activities was transferred
13 from the president of the country to the government of the Republic of
14 Macedonia, but that required to adopt certain by-laws. Is it correct that
15 up until those by-laws were adopted, the president still behaved and
16 carried out his authority as a supreme commander of the Armed Forces?
17 A. Yes, I think that was the law that was amended or a new law was
18 adopted, I can't remember, but it never became operational with that kind
19 of competence between the government and the president regarding the
20 police and the army, because that law required the adoption of certain
21 by-laws that would be the tool for its implementation which were not
22 adopted, so the old law remained in force. That is to say, it was -- that
23 was the law that was applied.
24 Q. Is it correct, since you at that time headed the police forces,
25 that -- it was neither the old nor the new law who gave authority to the
1 minister to ask for the use of the police force in the combat activities?
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: I -- I'm just trying to make sure that the record is
5 clear. The witness in his response to the last question said that the old
6 law remained there in force, and I don't then understand why my colleague
7 is saying, well, is it correct that neither the old nor the new law gave
8 authority to the minister. It seems that the witness has answered the
9 question. The old law is in force. Unless I'm not understanding.
10 JUDGE PARKER: There seems to be some uncertainty, Ms. Residovic.
11 The witness may be able to clarify it.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Okay, thank you.
13 Q. General, you might look at the document in tab 72. That is
14 Exhibit 1D98, and this is the Official Gazette of the Republic of
15 Macedonia of June 1, 2001, where the new Law on Defence was published. Do
16 you see that, General?
17 A. Yes, I see it.
18 Q. If you look at the final provisions of this law, found at page
19 R 042-4559, it is Article 172. The English text would be on page -- it's
20 002850. And these final provisions, transitional and final provisions, it
21 is stipulated that regulations issuance of which is foreseen by this law
22 will be issued in a period of one year from the day it is put in effect
23 except for the regulations foreseen in the Articles 142, 143, and 144,
24 chapter 12, planning which will be passed in two years at the most.
25 The following Article, number 173, reads: "With the day of this
1 law getting into effect, the -- the law on defence ceases to be in force,"
2 and we can see the number 30/95. The next paragraph also
3 says, "Supplemental regulations issued in accordance with the law from
4 paragraph 1 will be applied until the adoption of the provisions of
5 Article 172 of this law if they are not in collision with the provisions
6 of this law."
7 So, General, my question is, and I also understood that your
8 answer also was that since the -- these regulations were not passed that
9 were to regulate also the issues in the heading of the police forces
10 practically in 2001 in respect to this competences, the old law was in
11 force, which gave that authority to the president of the republic. Did I
12 understand well what you just said previously?
13 A. Exactly like that.
14 Q. Since the new law as we can see in this text, since it has been
15 published and was in effect on 1st of June, 2001, my next question, which
16 caused certain uncertainty was the following.
17 Is it correct that also this law from 1995 nor the law from 2001
18 did not foresee that the minister is the one who is authorised to order
19 the use of the police forces in military or combat activities. Is that
21 A. Absolutely correct.
22 Q. General, in -- while performing all your duties in the defence and
23 the maintenance of law and order, is it correct that from the very
24 beginning you had the closest cooperation with the international
1 A. Yes, that was completely normal, it was also necessary at those
3 Q. In that execution of the joint tasks is it true that the
4 international community from the very beginning had a clear position about
5 the situation in Macedonia and that the representative of the biggest
6 world forces in the United States of America as well as Russia and other
7 countries, then the Security Council and their representatives of the NATO
8 completely supported the efforts made by the Republic of Macedonia and the
9 attacks of these groups were either called extremist groups or were called
10 terrorist groups. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct. All until sometime 22nd of June, as far as
12 I can remember and note, when this picture suddenly changed and created a
13 dilemma and I still have a dilemma why this picture changed since -- I'm
14 not sure whether that was exactly 22nd or 23rd of June, after the
15 cease-fire order for Aracinovo came by the minister, that these three
16 or -- two or three days before the great protest in front of the
17 parliament I got a task from the minister together with a NATO vehicle, I
18 think it was medical vehicle of NATO, to go towards Aracinovo and to
19 withdraw some person that was wounded. I don't pose this dilemma by
20 accident here. Maybe it's not part -- shouldn't be part of my testimony,
21 but I think it is very important in my opinion who -- this is a question
22 that deserve -- this deserve an attention by me, by the minister to
23 withdraw this person from the village and to take it to the medical
24 facilities, I never learned of his face or his identity, to have this
25 person boarded on a helicopter and transferred to a hospital in the
1 Bonstil base in Kosovo.
2 Q. General, you provided quite a wider question -- quite a wider
3 answer to the question that I posed, because I didn't know those facts.
4 But my question would be, would it be correct that sometime in June the
5 international community, at least its representatives that you contacted
6 with, suddenly and without any reasons that they would communicate to the
7 Macedonian authorities started to change the position towards these
8 extremist and terrorist groups?
9 A. I think I already mentioned it. If I would learn what was the
10 identity of the person that we saved from Aracinovo, I think that at least
11 to me, many of the dilemmas would become more clear and I'm sure that also
12 some other people's dilemmas would be clarified.
13 Q. Is it correct that part of these rallies of citizens that we spoke
14 about were also due to the confusion that reigned among the population
15 whether Macedonia was betrayed by the international community at that
17 A. Yes, such confusion was created even amongst some of our
19 Q. However, despite that fact, you continued to give utmost support
20 and cooperation to all the international organisations, NATO, OSCE, and
21 others in the country. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Moreover, you were aware that without the assistance of the
24 international community. You were unable to do some of the things on your
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Therefore, the Ministry of Interior gave all possible open
3 opportunities to the international community to access all areas under the
4 control of the police of the Republic of Macedonia, and the police removed
5 any obstacle that would be found on the ground to allow the international
6 community to conduct its work?
7 A. Yes, that's correct. They had this big cards on their chest that
8 left them free access and free -- and they were free to conduct all their
9 activities in that way.
10 Q. And it was not the case only to -- as far as the international
11 organisations were concerned, the police gave free access also to
12 journalist teams and other NGOs to freely control the activities of the
13 police and the situation on the ground?
14 A. Yes, that is exact. This can be verified as far as every
15 discussion that was conducted by our side with the journalists.
16 Q. In that respect, very often you received both written and verbal
17 recognitions from the international community?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Now I'd like to ask to you look at the document in tab 87. This
20 is it Exhibit 1D38, page 1D1919 and the English version is 1D1920.
21 You can see here a letter from the OSCE addressed to the Minister
22 Ljube Boskoski signed by the deputy head of the OSCE mission Mr. Robin
23 Seford. Have you met Mr. Seford?
24 A. If I'm not mistaken I think he was deputy head of the OSCE mission
25 in Skopje.
1 Q. And you can see here the letter that the minister received, and
2 the deputy head of the mission thanks the minister for all the efforts and
3 activities that the interior ministry has conducted in view of allowing
4 for the OSCE to conduct its mission. Is this the content of the letter
5 you see before you at the moment?
6 A. Yes, I think it is.
7 Q. Since you were at a high-ranking position at that time and you can
8 personally testify, could you say that this was a true behaviour, not only
9 a diplomatic vocabulary addressed to the minister, namely was this a real
10 gratitude that was felt in regards to the efforts invested by the police?
11 A. I think it was.
12 Q. And if someone would say that this was only a kind of diplomatic
13 nice gesture, then this would not be accurate?
14 A. No, it wouldn't. I would add not only the OSCE but other
15 representatives of the international organisations shared the same
16 opinion. At least this is what they said.
17 Q. Now I'd like ask you, General, to tell me, while we already spoke
18 of Aracinovo and your effort to allow [indiscernible] from Aracinovo, is
19 it correct that whenever it was necessary to establish the facts on-site
20 concerning alleged crimes that there would be an investigation team
21 composed of investigating judge, prosecutor, and a group that would be
22 established by that judge, composed of forensics and all those people,
23 that were supposed to go to make the on-site investigation?
24 A. Yes, you have enumerated all the actors that are supposed to
25 participate in such an on-site investigation.
1 Q. We speak of Aracinovo, since there have been considerable fights
2 and the victims on both sides, is it correct that an investigating group
3 with a judge, a prosecutor and representatives of the police who were not
4 able to enter the village with the active involvement of the international
5 community, this is the reason why representatives of the OSCE and the NATO
6 accompanied them?
7 A. Let me clarify this. The previous days where there were victims
8 among -- on our side and on the other side as well, it was impossible to
9 make an on-site investigation. The investigation was done after the
10 terrorists raised their white flags on the windows when the cease-fire was
11 occurred after their retrieval together with international community with
12 the representatives of the OSCE, the monitoring mission, the NATO, and our
13 own team together with the prosecutor, with investigating judge and with
14 forensic team, we entered and we made this on-site investigation.
15 Q. Could we turn now to the document in tab 62, 65 ter 400 N004-1819,
16 Macedonian version. The English version, it's 9820-ET.
17 So in tab 62 --
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The next page in the English
19 version, please. It's 9820. Macedonian version should stay the same.
20 Please get back the Macedonian page as it was. Okay. Thank you.
21 Q. As you see, General, this is an information on the current
22 situation on the territory of the village of Aracinovo, and the measures
23 and activities undertaken by the Ministry of Interior Affairs. It refers
24 exactly to the event that you testified about a few moments ago.
25 In paragraph 2 of this information, it says: "In this respect,
1 after meetings held with representatives of the army of the Republic of
2 Macedonia, the OSCE, the EU and NATO on June 27 at around 9.00 in the
3 village of Aracinovo five police teams entered. Each of the teams
4 comprised ten policemen from the unit posebna, one policeman each of
5 Albanian ethnicity as well as authorised officials of the sectors for
6 anti-terrorism and crime technique who were accompanied by public
7 prosecutor, investigating judge, and representatives of the international
8 monitoring mission."
9 Under the -- headed by senior police officers the terms carried
10 out an inspection and search of the terrain when several trenches were
11 discovered as well as machine-gun and sniper nests, a large quantity of
12 weapons and explosive devices were found mainly of Chinese production."
13 Do you see this?
14 A. Yes, I see it.
15 Q. Could you please look at the second page of this document, the
16 following page, N004-9820, Macedonian version, and the English version is
17 9821-ET, and the third paragraph in the Macedonian version says: "After
18 successful action of cleaning the area of the village Aracinovo which was
19 also confirmed by international organisations the Ministry of Internal
20 Affairs undertook activities to protect the property and personal security
21 of the local inhabitants."
22 Further on, on the same page, the fourth paragraph
23 says: "Otherwise, during the planning and the execution of these
24 activities, the ministry continued its cooperation with the
25 representatives of the international monitoring mission in order to
1 exchange experience and in view of establishing a more efficient way of
2 carrying out the activities of the police staff on this territory."
3 General, does this information remind you of the successful
4 cooperation with the international community whose assistance helped you
5 to make an on-site investigation in Aracinovo and to undertake all other
6 necessary measures in order to restore peace and order and protect the
7 civilian inhabitants there ?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
10 tendered this information into an exhibit.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D132, Your Honours.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is it correct, General, that during this cooperation that you
15 tried to continue and develop, you were also reviewing issues of
16 cease-fire, then border crossing of groups, you were trying to convey all
17 your information to the KFOR and requested that KFOR would also
18 participate in the stabilisation of the situation in Macedonia?
19 A. I could not be very precise in responding. I cannot even
20 enumerate all the people we had to discuss and to speak with. We had an
21 endless number of contacts and with different people and organisations and
22 among them there was KFOR as well. I was at one meeting in the Gazela
23 factory, the shoe factory Gazela where there was such a meeting with the
25 Q. But as you said before, in -- by the end of June or by the end of
1 the summer you could already feel that this cooperation with international
2 community was more and more featured by a certain pressure excerpted upon
3 the government the Republic of Macedonia and the Ministry of Interior?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. I don't know whether there was a written
5 record of the meeting that was held in the Bellevue Hotel in those days.
6 If there is such a document and such record I think that we could see
7 there certain aspects concerning the plan for the retrieval of the NLA
8 from the Aracinovo village.
9 Q. Thank you. Can we look at the document in tab 89 of the binder.
10 This is 65 ter 459 N005-1626, the English version, 1626-ET.
11 This is an information related to a meeting with KFOR
12 representatives in July 19th, 2001. Paragraph 1 -- in this paragraph we
13 can see that the meeting was held on July 18th, 2001, and that this
14 meeting was also attended by the assistant head of the department for
15 police, Zoran Jovanovski. Was this your deputy at the time?
16 A. Yes, Zoran Jovanovski was my deputy at that time.
17 Q. Was this meeting one additional attempt by the minister of the
18 interior, in cooperation with NATO and KFOR, to ensure the execution of
19 the previously prepared plan for the disarmament of these extremist
20 terrorist groups? This plan had foreseen earlier for that weapon to be
21 handed over in the period of 30 days.
22 A. Yes, this was one of those activities.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
24 tender this document into evidence.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D133, Your Honours.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. General, I would like to ask you now to go to this third binder.
4 Before that, could you please answer to some questions related to
5 your activities in August 12th, 2001.
6 We will not go into the documents yet, but if we are to show some
7 of them they will be in this third binder.
8 First I would like to make you some questions. Earlier you said
9 that on the 11th, together with the police forces you were in Radusa which
10 had been attacked by these terrorist or NLA groups. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes. I was there together with the active police was deployed
12 there with the posebna unit and with the Special Unit.
13 Q. With the posebna unit and the Special Unit Tigers. Is that
15 A. Yes, it's correct.
16 Q. Is it correct that before that, major attacks occurred from the
17 NLA against army and police positions and your assessment was that this --
18 the purpose of these attacks was to prevent the signature of the framework
19 agreement. Is this correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. However, these major attacks of the NLA included the first the
22 attack of the army convoy in Karpala [phoen] where ten soldiers were
23 killed and which resulted with the resignation of the Chief of Staff and
24 the attack on the Ljubotenski Bacila where eight soldiers of the army were
25 killed and a lot of them were wounded, then this was followed by the
1 attack against the Radusa police station on the 8th and 10th of August.
2 Are those the events that have occurred in that -- following that dynamic
3 and having such serious repercussions?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Is it correct that after that on 11th, late in the evening after
6 you returned from Radusa when the situation was a little bit calmer you
7 decided to take a day off and join your family in Ohrid on Sunday, the
9 A. I wouldn't say it was late in the evening on the 11th but it was
10 early in the morning on the 12th, because I stayed there until after
11 midnight. I don't know exactly the hour, and that's correct. In the
12 morning, I started to Skopje because I thought that the cease-fire would
13 enter into force which was signed on July the 5th. We signed that
14 statement for a cease-fire.
15 Q. And when you returned from Radusa, then, on Sunday morning, you
16 decided to go to Ohrid for one day of -- off?
17 A. Yes. My intention was to go in the morning and to return in the
18 evening, and this was the case.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe now it's a good
20 time to adjourn.
21 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 1.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
1 Q. So before the break, you just confirmed that on the 12th, in the
2 morning, you started towards Ohrid. And is it correct that somewhere near
3 Ohrid received a phone call from the deputy president of the government of
4 Republic of Macedonia, Kemal Musliu?
5 A. I think it was the vice-president, Mr. Musliu called me on the
6 phone. I was between Bitola and Ohrid. I don't remember the exact
7 location where I was. I know that it was early in the morning, around
8 9.00, 10.00.
9 Q. Vice-president Musliu is of Albanian ethnicity, isn't he?
10 A. I think, yes.
11 Q. And at that time there were five Albanian ministers in the
13 A. Yes, from the independence onwards there have always been four,
14 five or six. I don't want to make any mistake, ministers, approximately
15 the same number of deputies, et cetera.
16 Q. And the deputy minister for the interior, Refet Elmazi is also of
17 Albanian ethnicity?
18 A. Yes, he is an Albanian.
19 Q. And during the crisis, none of his Albanians resigned from the
20 government and the deputy minister for the interior did not leave the
21 ministry. Is it so?
22 A. Yes. He was often very present in the collegium with the
24 Q. Vice-president Musliu informed you that something was happening
25 around Ljuboten and requested some information from you. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes. I think he was as surprised as I was when he learned that
2 something was taking place in Ljuboten.
3 Q. You tried to phone the director Goran Mitevski, but he was not
4 available initially.
5 A. Yes. He and the others. It was Sunday earlier in the morning. I
6 thought that they were resting.
7 Q. But later when you got him on the phone, you learned that he was
8 in Ohrid as well. Is it correct?
9 A. I'm not sure where he phoned me from. He said, We agreed that we
10 would inform the minister together. But where he had been at the exact
11 moment, I can't really remember. Maybe he told me, but I did not remember
13 Q. You tried to reach the minister and initially you couldn't, and
14 then you phoned your deputy in Skopje, Mr. Ljupco Bliznakovski. Is that
16 A. A correction, Ljupco Bliznakovski was not my direct deputy. He
17 was deputy to the assistant of the minister responsible for the city of
19 Q. I apologise. It was my mistake. So deputy assistant to the
20 minister in charge of the city of Skopje so he was your direct subordinate
21 with regard to the city of Skopje. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, correct.
23 Q. You actually woke him up because he returned home late the
24 previous evening from Radusa. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, he was with me in Radusa.
1 Q. And he was absolutely surprised by your question because he had no
2 information that something was taking place in Ljuboten. Is that correct?
3 A. Exactly.
4 Q. At the end, through the duty operational centre you managed to
5 speak with the Minister Boskoski. It was around 10.00 in the morning. Is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is correct.
8 Q. And in the first moments when you spoke with him, it did seem to
9 you that he had just woken up. But you learned in the collegium the
10 following morning that you found him at his barber's, actually?
11 A. Yes, I thought that he had just woken up because he was speaking
12 very quietly and this is how I gathered this impression.
13 Q. And the minister was surprised by your question what was taking
14 place in Ljuboten, because it was obvious that he knew nothing about it.
15 Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is correct. He had no information that something was
17 taking place there.
18 Q. And he then told to you go to Ljuboten immediately. Is that
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. But you explained to him that you were near Ohrid and that you
22 could not do it. Is that correct also?
23 A. Yes. I clarified the position where I was, the location where I
24 was at the moment, and that I was not able to go to Ljuboten.
25 Q. And as you testified, answering my learned colleague Prosecutor's
1 question, although you started to take a vacation that day, you were in
2 constant contact with Bliznakovski and with other, director Mitevski in
3 order to learn what was actually taking place in Ljuboten. Is that
5 A. It is correct.
6 Q. When you learned in the afternoon that hundreds of villagers of
7 Ljuboten were walking towards Skopje and that several thousand citizens
8 from the neighbouring villages and Skopje were walking towards Radishani
9 and that there had already been rather chaotic, that the citizens started
10 turning cars over, that it was already known that there were injured among
11 the villagers leaving the village, you then, as you testified, tried, in
12 consultation with Bliznakovski, with Mitevski, and also in consultations
13 with the minister, decided to send to that site the posebna unit. Is that
15 A. Yes, it is correct.
16 Q. And as far as you know, one part of posebna was then deployed
17 towards Radishani and Butel in order to create a tampon zone between the
18 thousands of citizens and villagers from Ljuboten and in order to protect
19 the police stations that these citizens do not enter the police station.
20 Is that correct?
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. And you believe that through these efforts the police managed to
23 prevent unforeseeable consequences that could have occurred on that day.
24 Is that correct?
25 A. Yes. Maybe we did not arrive in time to completely prevent
1 contacts between the civilian populations. They had already occurred to
2 the extent that they did occurred but we prevented an incident of
3 unforeseeable consequences that we did.
4 Q. So you already had an information that some of the villagers from
5 Ljuboten were injured in that clash with the crowd and that some of
6 these -- or one of these people was offered medical care in a hospital?
7 A. This is precisely why we have sent the posebna unit.
8 Q. Is it correct, General, that it was only in the evening that you
9 saw on TV that the minister had been in Ljubanci sometime later, after
10 your phone conversation. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes. This is what I learned. My feedback was that it was
12 fortunate that the minister went there so the situation calmed at the
14 Q. Is it also correct that the next morning at the collegium meeting
15 where the situation was reviewed in relation to the events of Ljuboten,
16 the minister told you that, Goran, Bosko, you were not in Skopje and that
17 the president told him to go on the site and try to calm the situation
18 down. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes. This topic was discussed, but I could not give you precise
20 details. But that was the spirit of the discussion.
21 Q. So from this testimony and from your experiences of that day,
22 could you agree with me that neither you nor the Director Mitevski nor
23 your direct subordinate, Ljupco Bliznakovski, and neither the minister had
24 any information about anything that was about to take place in Ljuboten or
25 that anyone was preparing any action?
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. So if the police was in preparation for anything, you, of course,
3 as the leader of the police, would naturally have that information a lot
4 earlier. Isn't it so?
5 A. It is absolutely correct.
6 Q. And at no time the minister would skip you over or interrupt the
7 line of hierarchy in command to suggest something to someone else or order
8 something someone, outside of the command that would have been yours
9 effectively. He never interfered with that line of coordination and
10 subordination in the Ministry of Interior?
11 A. You are correct.
12 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreters kindly ask the speakers to
13 make pauses between respective questions and answers.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. When you answered yesterday one of the questions --
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The interpreters asked us to make
18 Q. When you testified yesterday that on August 11 the minister
19 arrived to Radusa and you stated that you were grateful for the support
20 that he rendered to you, and in relation to the question I'm asking you
21 now, I would like to have it repeated one more time.
22 Is it correct that the minister didn't have any operational
23 competences over the police officers participating in an action and he
24 never issued such orders or he would skip over the lines of command in
25 order to issue any such order. Is that your experience of 2001?
1 A. Yes, it is so.
2 Q. Thank you. Is it correct, General, that immediately the next
3 morning, when you met in the collegium, the minister informed you that he
4 will immediately request a meeting with the representatives of the OSCE in
5 order to ask for assistance in the activities of reviewing the Ljuboten
7 A. Yes. I believe that we were given specific tasks, who should
8 contact whom among the representatives of the international community. I
9 know that I had soon afterwards a meeting with the NATO general in Skopje,
10 aiming towards creating conditions for to us go on site and to make an
11 inspection about the -- investigation about the events of Ljuboten.
12 Q. And if I understood you well, when you answered Prosecutor's
13 question, you requested assistance from the NATO general. Was that
14 General Lange [phoen] or ...
15 A. I think it was Lange, yes.
16 Q. And General Lange told you that they could not give you support,
17 because that was the day of the signing of the framework agreement and
18 entry into the village could cause different problems. So is that
19 approximately the answer you were given?
20 A. It -- not approximately. I remember the answer precisely. That
21 the security assessment was -- that it was not advisable to enter the
22 village because we would cause an even greater problem for -- from the one
23 that had already occurred in -- if anything had occurred already.
24 Q. And the minister had a meeting with the head of the OSCE mission,
25 Carlo Ungaro, since there was an information in the public domain that
1 allegedly some people were killed in the village, and that information
2 allegedly came from the OSCE?
3 A. Yes. Not only with the gentleman you mentioned. I think that the
4 minister contacted with several ambassadors, relevant ambassadors at that
5 time. Or political representatives in the Republic of Macedonia.
6 Q. And maybe I could refresh your memory. After those meetings,
7 Minister Boskoski and Carlo Ungaro as well gave statements where the head
8 of the mission stated that this was not an information released by the
9 OSCE and that the OSCE supports the investigation of the situation, and
10 the Minister Boskoski also immediately stated publicly that everything
11 that took place in Ljuboten must be investigated. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, precisely.
13 Q. And on that date, he brought a decision to establish the
14 committee, the decision that you were shown a while ago. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is correct.
16 Q. And as members of the commission you were immediately given the
17 information that the investigation team established by the investigating
18 judge Ognen Stavrev could not enter the village. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes. I think they went into the entrance into the village and
20 then they came back.
21 Q. You also requested assistance from the vice-president Kemal Musliu
22 requesting that the investigation team is allowed entry into the village?
23 A. Yes, it is correct, because I had saved the mobile phone number
24 from which he called me on Sunday, and as he asked me, pleading that the
25 activities there cease, I also asked him to help, if he knows some people
1 of authority in the village, I don't know, a hodza or a priest or a
2 teacher or something, that they could facilitate the inspection, but he
3 briefly and categorically stated, I apologise, General, I'm sorry, but I
4 can't help you there.
5 Q. After that you learned that the bodies were buried and the
6 investigation committee was prevented from entering the village for the
7 second time. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is correct.
9 Q. And you stated that you were very frustrated by the fact, because
10 without an on-site investigation it was practically impossible to
11 ascertain the status of the alleged victims in the village, their number
12 or circumstances in which these people died. Is that correct?
13 A. Correct. I have this feeling even now, at this moment, in a state
14 with its constitution and laws, the police and the investigating team,
15 investigating judge are prevented to make an inspection regarding an event
16 in a village, in the village of Ljuboten.
17 Q. Considering that you stated this now, is it true, General, that
18 actually, pursuant to the Law on Criminal Procedure of the Republic of
19 Macedonia when there is a well-based suspicion that a crime has been
20 committed, then it is normal and the only possible situation is that the
21 police, through its duty operational centre, informs the duty public
22 prosecutor and the duty investigating judge and then the judge on duty
23 decides who will perform the on-site investigation. Is that correct?
24 A. Correct. Pursuant to the Law on Criminal Procedure, the on-site
25 investigation is carried out by the investigating judge in the presence of
1 a public prosecutor; if he concludes, based on the information received,
2 that the case is insignificant in terms of consequences, the damage
3 caused, etc., he can refer the on-site investigation to a team from the
4 Ministry of the Interior. Which usually happens in case of minor traffic
5 accidents, just to clarify…
6 Q. You also answered my next question, if these are minor incidents,
7 then the investigating judge authorises the police to conduct the on-site
8 investigation on their own. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But once the judge decides to go on the scene, he decides what
11 will be the team to accompany him, so he calls for an establishment of a
12 team of forensics -- criminal forensics, and other police team that will
13 secure the site or assist the court if it deems it necessary, it calls
14 forensic pathologists or other persons that are important to establish the
15 facts, experts from various fields and then it is the judge who decides
16 about all the actions taken on the scene. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is correct.
18 Q. The judge who makes the on-site investigation is the dominus litis
19 of this entire activity and all the others are only acting upon his
20 order. Is that correct?
21 A. Since I don't speak English, if dominus litis means head or chief,
22 then this is correct.
23 Q. As I said --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, "I don't understand
25 Latin" was what he precisely said.
1 A. And in Latin it means exactly what you said.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Okay. Tell me now -- could we look -- I was warned that there
4 might be a mistake somewhere.
5 Line 23, my question was -- page 73, line 23, my question was: So
6 that during minor incidents that are less important, that investigating
7 judge may authorise the police to carry out the on-site investigation
8 itself. That is in line -- in line 23 has been said that the police
9 decides by itself, which was not my question. Thank you.
10 General, could you look at the document in tab 117. That is
11 Exhibit 1D6. Let's immediately see the second page, which is N000-7351.
12 The English bears the same number with addition of the ET.
13 Do you see this document, Official Note of the Basic Court II and
14 the second document that I said -- that I asked you to review is the --
15 signed by the investigating judge Ognen Stavrev.
16 A. Yes, I see it.
17 Q. On that page, it is said: "Regarding the same case on the 12th of
18 August, the duty investigating judge was informed by MVR SVR DOC 92 at
19 1730 that in the area of the Ljubanci and Ljuboten villages, there were
20 several murdered members of the paramilitaries of the Albanian terrorists,
21 but no one could come close to the bodies because at that moment the
22 military activities were still going on.
23 "The investigative judge informed the deputy public prosecutor,
24 Roska Karova about the details that he received by the MVR. The
25 investigating judge was also informed that the safety of the investigation
1 authorities of the court and the public prosecution was not guaranteed
2 because of the clashes that were still going on. So that is why no
3 investigation activities were undertaken, more precisely because of the
4 military clashes that were still ongoing between the mentioned
5 paramilitary formations and the security forces of the Republic of
7 "Dr. Aleksej Duma was also informed about it, this director of the
8 Forensic Institute and criminology."
9 General, is it obvious from this report that the competent bodies
10 of the police, through the duty operational centre of the city of Skopje,
11 already on the 12th, in the late afternoon hours, informed the judge that
12 it is possible that there might be deceased persons in the village. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes, the police has acted upon its duties and obligations.
15 Q. So by informing the investigating judge the police completed its
16 legal obligation. Is it correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The police provided additional information about the situation but
19 is it correct, General, that the investigating judge is the one to-- to
20 decide whether they're going to carry out the investigation regardless of
21 the security situation on the village whether they would enter into combat
22 activities or into some situation that is not very certain that is a
23 decision of the investigating judge himself and only the investigating
24 judge. Is that correct?
25 A. Exactly.
1 Q. Could you look now at the first page of the document. That is
2 N000-7350. And this is an Official Note, speaking of two attempts of the
3 investigating judge Ognen Stavrev, the deputy Milan Gelevski and Zlatko
4 Jakovski from the forensics and criminalistics pathology institute to
5 carry out a on-site investigation.
6 Tell me, is that the time when you made efforts through NATO
7 through the vice-president of the government and through some other
8 international entities to help the investigating team enter the village?
9 A. I think that the entire leadership was standing on their feet
10 trying to provide conditions for the investigating judge and the
11 prosecutor and the others of the investigation team to be able access the
12 village. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.
13 Q. As a member of this commission established by the minister, which
14 is in tab 96, as the first document of this binder, and that is Exhibit
15 P73, you -- you already were handicapped by the fact that you were not
16 able to determine the first and the primary facts that are important for
17 any type of procedure that might be taken by the police in relation to
18 these events. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But at the question of my learned colleague the Prosecutor you
21 said that in line with the order given in the decision, you tried to get
22 all the available materials from the services of the Ministry of Interior,
23 so you would be able to come to an information what had really been going
24 on there. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you said that the biggest part of that work was done by the
2 president of the commission. That is Goran Mitevski, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And knowing him as an exceptional professional you had total faith
5 in his work and that he would do anything to learn about the circumstances
6 and that he would find all the relevant documents that are necessary. Is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You also said that since it was -- the uniformed police was your
10 competence, through your line, through your deputy -- not your deputy but
11 the deputy of the assistant minister for Skopje, Ljupco Bliznakovski, you
12 have tried to find out what had really happened and what the situation
13 were in the police stations on the field. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is correct. I would just like to add not only with Ljupco
15 but the entire team of mine with the people that were composing the
16 leadership of the police departments with my immediate collaborators had
17 the task to gather information about the Ljuboten events.
18 Q. And you had absolute trust in Ljupco Bliznakovski as a
19 professional, as an exceptional police professional?
20 A. Yes, that's true.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned colleague
22 the Prosecutor asked me to -- to -- to stop my cross-examination some five
23 minutes before the end of the session because he has a question, so I
24 don't know whether this is right time now.
25 JUDGE PARKER: I think this is the appropriate time. Thank you
1 for that, Ms. Residovic.
2 We must continue tomorrow with the evidence of the General at
3 9.00. You will appreciate that, General, and in view of that, the court
4 officer will now be able to show you out of the court and we'll deal with
5 whatever this further matter may be.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
9 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 May we move into private session, please.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 3778-3781 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
9 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has just explored with counsel the
10 question of whether the planned witness to follow the present witness will
11 be able to conclude his evidence before the commencement of the break.
12 The time indications given by counsel indicate that that will not be
13 feasible and in those circumstances, the Chamber indicates that it would
14 in its view, not be in the interests of justice to have a significant
15 break in the course of the evidence of that witness, and that therefore
16 the alternative course proposed by Mr. Saxon should be followed, which is
17 that at the end of the evidence of the present witness a crime base
18 witness who can be available should be called and that witness will
19 proceed on the basis that the Chamber will ensure, by cutting short
20 counsel if necessary, that the evidence of that witness concludes by the
21 end of the session on Friday.
22 Is that clear enough for everybody?
23 Very well. We now adjourn.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of July,
1 2007, at 9.00 a.m.