1 Friday, 20 July 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 General, the affirmation you made at the beginning of your
8 evidence does still apply.
9 Mr. Saxon.
10 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 If we could look at Exhibit P75, please.
12 WITNESS: RISTO GALEVSKI [Resumed]
13 [The witness answers through interpreter]
14 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]
15 Q. General, if it would assist you to look at a hard copy. Actually,
16 I don't have hard copies, so we could use the Macedonian version.
17 Can we make the Macedonian version larger, please.
18 General, on Tuesday, at page 3684 of the transcript, my colleague
19 asked you about this document. It is the decision by Minister Boskoski to
20 establish a special police unit.
21 And on Tuesday, you explained that this document actually refers
22 to the posebna unit which was created long before 2001. Do you recall
24 A. Yes, I remember.
25 Q. And, General, I'll ask you, as always, try to speak up a little
1 bit for the interpreters.
2 In the Macedonian version, could we turn to the second page,
4 And, General, I'd like you to focus on paragraph 6. It starts on
5 the second page in the Macedonian version. It's on the bottom of the
6 first page in the English version.
7 Do you see paragraph 6 there, General?
8 A. Yes, I can see Item 6.
9 Q. Item 6 says:
10 "The commanding and basic composition of the Special Unit is
11 provided from the Department for Police, SVR/Sector for Internal
12 Affairs/of the city of Skopje, the sectors and departments of internal
13 affairs in the Republic of Macedonia, that is, for each battalion, and the
14 platoon for logistics individually."
15 And then below that, we see the following:
16 "The following number of members of police is provided for the
17 Skopje battalion, from the Department for Police- 2."
18 You see that, General?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. " ... From the Centre for Training Animals and Training - 10; from
21 the Sector for Security, Police Station for the security of buildings of
22 the government of the Republic of Macedonia and diplomatic-consular
23 representation officers-49."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I see it.
1 Q. So just to clarify, Item 6 shows that the posebna unit was made up
2 of regular police as well as officers or personnel from other units such
3 as the Ministry of Interior's Sector for Security and Protection; is that
5 A. Yes, it might be said so.
6 Q. And that Sector for Security and Protection, that's the unit that
7 you described yesterday as the unit that provides security to high-level
8 officials of the Macedonian government, as well as security and protection
9 to government buildings; right?
10 A. Yes, and also the diplomatic and consular representative offices.
11 Q. Yesterday at page 3813 of the transcript, my learned colleague
12 asked you whether after your committee completed its work in September
13 2001, whether the government of Macedonia ever suggested that the work of
14 that committee was somehow faked or that it was not a sincere effort to
15 reveal the truth.
16 And you replied: "No, the government adopted that information."
17 Do you recall this exchange?
18 A. Yes, I remember.
19 Q. So would it be fair to say, then, that Minister Boskoski also
20 adopted the information provided by your committee?
21 A. I think yes.
22 MR. SAXON: Can we turn, please, to Exhibit P73. Your Honours,
23 this is at tab 1 of the Prosecution's binder.
24 Q. General, this is again the decision of 13 August 2001, signed by
25 Minister Boskoski, to establish the commission of which you were a member,
1 and I'd like to ask you, please, could you focus on Part 2, because I'd
2 like to ask your help with part of it.
3 In the middle of Part 2, it says this:
4 "The Commission from Item 1 of this decision has the task to
5 review the circumstances and analyse the activities undertaken by the
6 security forces of the Minister of Internal Affairs to repel the armed
7 attacks of terrorist groups on 12/08/2001 in the village of Ljuboten-
9 Do you follow me?
10 A. Yes, I follow you.
11 Q. Just to clarify, did the mandate of this commission then include
12 investigating the treatment of ethnic Albanian civilians who were stopped
13 at check-points outside of the village of Ljuboten?
14 A. I think that it included everything related to Ljuboten.
15 Q. All right. Then would the mandate of this commission have
16 included investigating the treatment of ethnic Albanian residents of
17 Ljuboten who were detained by the police on the 12th of August, 2001, and
18 held in various police stations outside of Ljuboten?
19 A. Yes, of course, it includes that as well.
20 Q. Focusing on, then, this mandate to analyse the activities
21 undertaken by the security forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in
22 the village of Ljuboten, can we accept, General, that by the 13th of
23 August, when he issued this decision, logically, then, Minister Boskoski
24 was aware that certain security forces of the Ministry of the Interior had
25 operated in Ljuboten on the 12th of August?
1 A. I would not be able to confirm this.
2 Q. Well, why, then, would the Minister have issued the decision that
3 he issued?
4 A. Because we received some information, I don't remember where it
5 came from, whether it was representatives of the International Community
6 or from the media, and that is a sufficient reason for the Minister to
7 react in this way to make a decision to establish a commission.
8 Q. What was the information that you received from the International
9 Community and the media between the 12th and 13th of August?
10 A. I couldn't be -- I couldn't remember very precisely, but I can
11 summarise. I remember there were various information -- there was various
12 information that there was some clashes between the citizens, that there
13 was, I don't know, shelling by the police, which was not true because the
14 police did not have such weapons available, such as strong weapons, with
15 some number of killed civilians, five, ten, fifteen, I can't remember how
16 many exactly. I know there were all sorts of information that I would
17 call them disinformations or speculations.
18 Q. Was information received indicating that security forces of the
19 Ministry of the Interior were present in Ljuboten on the 12th of August?
20 A. The information that I was receiving from the very beginning and
21 immediately after that was that our positions in the village of Ljuboten
22 were attacked and that our security forces had returned to it. I had no
23 other information about that at that time.
24 Q. When you say "our security forces were attacked," do you mean the
25 Ministry's security forces were attacked in Ljuboten; is that what you
2 A. When I say "our security forces," I'm thinking about the security
3 forces, the army and the police.
4 Q. Was Minister Boskoski accountable for the actions of the
5 Ministry's security forces?
6 A. You might say so, but not directly, because his commander heading
7 was carried out by him through the two directors and the under-secretaries
8 for criminal police and the police.
9 Q. The chain of command ran from the lower echelons to the higher
10 echelons to Minister Boskoski?
11 A. Yes. That is the hierarchy which I thought I explained.
12 Q. Yesterday, at page 3795 of the transcript, my colleague asked you:
13 "Is it also correct that without exhumation and postmortem of the
14 bodies, first you could not know how many people were killed, what was the
15 status of those people, what killed those people, and under which
16 circumstances they were killed?"
17 And you responded:
18 "It is correct, yes."
19 Do you recall that exchange?
20 A. Yes, I remember, and I stand by that even now.
21 Q. General, if you wanted to know how many people were killed at
22 Ljuboten, if someone wanted to know how many people were killed at
23 Ljuboten, could they obtain that information from speaking with members of
24 the Ministry of the Interior who were present in the village on the 12th
25 of August?
1 A. I think that from my position of my official duties, I was not
2 able to know that, that you should -- it would be correct to ask that
3 question to my colleague Zivko Petrovski, who was in charge of the police
5 Q. Well, let's speak hypothetically. I said if someone wanted to
6 know how many people were killed at Ljuboten, would one way of obtaining
7 that information be from speaking with members of the Ministry of the
8 Interior who were present in the village on the 12th of August?
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I -- we object to
10 this line of questioning because this is a hypothetical question, but that
11 is not the basic objection. My basic objection is that the Prosecutor is
12 departing from the assumption that the witness has said that units of the
13 Ministry of the Interior were in Ljuboten, but as far as I remember this
14 statement was not given -- the witness didn't give at all during his days
15 of evidence.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I agree with what you say, but I don't think, in
17 the end, that provides a valid basis for objection to this question, which
18 is really putting just a simple proposition to the witness, whether or not
19 speaking to members present on the 12th of August would have been one way
20 of obtaining information about what occurred.
21 Continue, Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON:
23 Q. General Galevski, if someone wanted to know how many people were
24 killed at Ljuboten, would one way of obtaining that information be from
25 speaking with persons who were present in the village of Ljuboten on the
1 12th of August?
2 A. Probably you are right, but we had a commander, we had a head,
3 assistant minister and his deputies that we were in contact with. We have
4 discussed on this topic, at least about the -- relating to the parts in
5 the uniform. And I will repeat again, my direct subordinate for the city
6 of Skopje and for that area was Mr. Ljupco Bliznakovski, who was on the
7 field every day and who had contact with the Cair area, and if -- whenever
8 -- if he would have received any precise information, I would have surely
9 received it.
10 Q. General, if you wanted to know -- if someone wanted to know the
11 status of the persons who were killed at Ljuboten, whether they were
12 civilians or combatants, could someone perhaps obtain that information by
13 speaking with persons who were present in Ljuboten on the 12th of August?
14 A. I think I already responded to this. We all tried, using our
15 lines of information, to know about it, and to be honest, after these
16 events, I've never went to Ljuboten.
17 Q. General, is your response to my question, then, a "yes" or a "no"?
18 A. I couldn't confirm.
19 Q. General, if you wanted to know -- if someone wanted to know what
20 killed the persons who died on the 12th of August in Ljuboten, could
21 someone obtain that information by speaking with persons who were present
22 in the village on the 12th of August?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this question has
24 already been asked, and I think that the Prosecutor could have asked all
25 these questions in his investigation [sic] in chief because he discussed
1 this document with the witness previously.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. Can you answer my question, General?
5 A. I could not be able to confirm.
6 Q. General, if someone wanted to know under which circumstances these
7 persons were killed at Ljuboten, could someone obtain that information by
8 speaking with persons who were present in Ljuboten on the 12th of August?
9 A. I would give you the same answer. I cannot confirm.
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
12 General, that concludes the questions that will be asked of you.
13 We would thank you for the time that you've taken to be here in I would
14 give you the same answer. I cannot confirm.
15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
17 General, that concludes the questions that will be asked of you.
18 We would thank you for the time that you've taken to be here in The Hague
19 and the assistance that you've given, and you may now of course return to
20 your normal activities.
21 So the Court Officer will now show you from the court. Thank you
22 very much.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, and I wish you
24 all good.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the next witness will be Mr. Betulla
3 Qaili, and he will be led by Mr. Neuner.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Could you please read the affirmation on the card
8 that's shown to you now.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: BETULLA QAILI
12 [The witness answers through interpreter]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
14 Now, Mr. Neuner will ask you some questions.
15 Examination by Mr. Neuner:
16 Q. Good morning, Witness.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Your name is Betulla Qaili?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you're an ethnic Albanian?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You were born in the village of Ljuboten and live in Skopje in
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in September 2005, you provided a statement to the Office of
1 the Prosecutor?
2 A. That's true.
3 MR. NEUNER: If I can just ask the usher to give the statement to
4 the witness, please.
5 Q. And in April of this year, you met in Skopje a male representative
6 from the Registry who certified that statement. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And before coming here today, did you have the opportunity to read
9 through it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And are its contents accurate?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, according to Rule 92 bis, I would like
14 to tender the certified statement of this witness, with the ERN N006-4276
15 to 4295 into evidence.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P383, Your Honours.
18 MR. NEUNER: I want to briefly summarise the content of that
20 The witness, Betulla Qaili, is the brother of Atulla Qaili. During
21 the events in Ljuboten in the time period 10 to 12 August 2001, the
22 witness was in Skopje.
23 On Sunday afternoon, 12th August, he learned that his brother,
24 Atulla Qaili and other Ljuboten residents, had been arrested by Macedonian
1 From Monday, 13th of August, until 18th of August, 2001, the
2 witness, sometimes together with other persons, inquired about the
3 whereabouts of his missing brother, Atulla. He visited the police
4 stations in Butel, Bit Pazar, Autokomanda, Karpos, Prolece, and Mirkovci.
5 He did neither see his brother, Atulla Qaili, at these police stations,
6 nor find his name on their list of persons detained recently.
7 A policeman in Mirkovci police station found the name Abdullah
8 Cajani on the list of detained persons there.
9 The witness also went to Sutka Prison, but his brother's name was
10 not on the list of prisoners recently detained there.
11 On or about 14th of August, 2001, the witness and Imer, last name
12 unknown, went to Skopje city hospital. A physician told them there that
13 Atulla Qaili was at the hospital. When Imer asked to see Atulla in the
14 city hospital, the physician responded that the police would not allow
16 Later, that same physician called Imer to tell him that Atulla
17 Qaili was not in Skopje city hospital.
18 The next day, the parents of the witness visited the Skopje city
19 hospital. They did not see Atulla Qaili there. On the list of the
20 hospital they found the name Abdullah Cajani. Twice, the witness visited
21 the morgue Butel 1. He was told there his brother is not on the morgue's
22 list of dead persons delivered recently.
23 During his second visit, he was allowed to inspect the corpses,
24 among which he recognised the buddy of his brother. That same day, having
25 completed the administrative procedure at the morgue, the witness received
1 a permission to bury his brother. His brother was buried in Ljuboten.
2 About two weeks after the burial, the witness's family was visited
3 by a policeman and asked about his dead brother.
4 Witness, I want to show you a document. The 65 ter number is
5 279.2. For the record, the ERN number is N001-7426.
6 Do you see that on the screen on the right-hand side in front of
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The title of the document is "Permission for Burial." It dates
10 from the 18th of August, 2001, and you refer in paragraph 28 of your
11 statement to it. Which institution issued this permission?
12 A. Butel Burial Institution.
13 Q. There is a box on the original, and there's a handwriting directly
14 above it, and it says there:
15 "The burial will take place in Ljuboten village."
16 When was Atulla Qaili buried in Ljuboten?
17 A. The day I took him, this is the day that I buried him.
18 Q. And this is the 18th of August, 2001?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You undertook numerous steps to find the body of your brother. On
21 your own initiative, you visited several police stations, the Sutka
22 Prison. After days of searching, you were finally successful and found
23 your brother.
24 My question to you is: How would you describe the role of the
25 Macedonian authorities and the support they gave you during the search for
1 your brother?
2 A. They didn't give me any support. It was me that tried to find
3 him, who entered in this burial company. I entered with my cousin in the
4 cemetery, and I found him there. This is what I said in my statement as
6 Q. Did you ever receive an official explanation from any authority in
7 Macedonia of what had happened to your brother while he was in custody of
8 the police after the 12th of August, 2001?
9 A. No, nothing. I have never received any document or information
10 about his whereabouts. It is me that found him.
11 MR. NEUNER: No further questions at this point in time.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Neuner.
13 Mr. Mettraux.
14 MR. METTRAUX: Good morning, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux:
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Qaili. My name is Guenal Mettraux, and together
17 with Ms. Residovic, we appear on behalf of General Boskoski.
18 I would like to ask you a few questions from the statements you
19 made in your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor.
20 You have told the Prosecutor, is that correct, that you went to
21 the city hospital, Skopje, on the 14th of August; is that correct?
22 A. I don't remember the date. When the war started in Ljuboten, two
23 to three days later, constantly I was searching for him. I went to the
24 hospital and they said he wasn't admitted to the hospital.
25 Q. Is that correct also that you went to the city hospital with your
1 relative, Mr. Imer Arifi; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And can you recall approximately, if you can, as time has passed,
4 what day it was when you went to the hospital?
5 A. It was in the afternoon.
6 Q. And you explained to the Prosecutor that you and Imer called a
7 doctor from the front desk of the hospital. Is that correct?
8 A. Imer called him on number 15. They spoke on the phone, and he
9 told him that Atulla Qaili was not there.
10 Q. You have explained to the Prosecution that Imer called this number
11 because he personally knew this doctor; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you told the Prosecution that you had been present during this
14 phone conversation between Imer and the doctor?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you also explained to the Prosecution that you wished not to
17 reveal the name of this doctor in order to protect him; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, due -- I was concerned for his security.
19 Q. And you have explained to the Prosecution that during this
20 telephone conversation, the doctor told Imer that Atulla was at the
21 hospital, but that you could not see him because the police would not let
22 you; is that what you told the Prosecutor?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then you explained to the Prosecution or you told the
25 Prosecution that you returned to the village of Ljuboten; is that correct?
1 A. I didn't return to Ljuboten. I returned to my house in Skopje.
2 Q. I apologise. In Skopje. And you explained that later on your
3 relative, your cousin, Imer, called you to indicate to you he had had
4 another phone call with that same doctor; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, at about 2200 hours.
6 Q. And Imer, during that conversation, told you that the doctor had
7 denied what he had told you earlier; namely, that Atulla had been at the
8 hospital; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. And you also told the Prosecutor that Imer had been told to come
11 back the next day to the hospital; is that correct?
12 A. I don't remember this.
13 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Qaili, that this is not exactly the way
14 things happened; you were not in fact present during that phone call, is
15 that correct, the first phone call between Imer and the doctor?
16 A. I was downstairs waiting while they were speaking on the phone.
17 Q. In fact, Imer didn't do that phone call from the hospital but from
18 his home; is that correct?
19 A. While we were together, he spoke with him from the hospital.
20 Afterwards, whether it was from his home or elsewhere, I don't know.
21 Q. But the original contact between Imer and the doctor, you were not
22 present, sir; is that correct?
23 A. I was downstairs there waiting. He was speaking on the phone.
24 Q. And, in fact, the doctor never told Imer that the police would not
25 let you have access to Atulla; is that true?
1 A. I was present there. I saw police all around the hospital, and it
2 is true, what he said to him.
3 Q. But is that correct that this phone call, Imer did it on his own
4 from his home and only the next day did you and Imer go together to the
5 hospital; is that the way things happened?
6 A. We were at the hospital that day, not the day after. He spoke
7 with him on Extension 15, Imer spoke with a doctor through Extension 15.
8 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Rule 65 ter
9 1D495. It has an ERN 1D00-4483 to 4488. There is no Macedonian.
10 Q. Mr. Qaili, what I'm about to read to you is a statement taken by
11 the Office of the Prosecution from Imer Arifi, your cousin, on the 15th of
12 September, 2005.
13 If I may ask the Registry to go to the third page of that
14 document. That would be 1D00-4485.
15 So there is no Macedonian or Albanian version of this document, so
16 I'll read the paragraph to you. It's a statement attributed to your
17 cousin, Imer Arifi, and he says this to the Prosecution:
18 "When I heard it, I started making all inquiries as well as other
19 my and Atulla relatives did, to find where Atulla is. Then I remember
20 that somebody mentioned we should also check whether he is not in
21 hospital. I called from my home phone to Skopje Town Hospital and spoke
22 with the Macedonian male doctor. The doctor replied to my question,
23 whether Atulla Qaili is hospitalised there, without hesitation, 'Yes,
24 Atulla is here.' But I could felt from his voice, that he is very afraid
25 as talking to me."
1 Is that correct, Mr. Qaili, that Imer actually had that
2 conversation which you mentioned from his own home and not from the phone
3 at Skopje hospital?
4 A. I don't know with whom he spoke from home, but as far as the
5 hospital is concerned, I was there, I'm sure. As far as his home is
6 concerned, I don't know. I was not there.
7 Q. And then he explains that he went to the hospital the next day. I
8 will read the paragraph to you, Mr. Qaili. It's the next paragraph,
9 paragraph 7:
10 "On the next day morning, I went to Skopje Town Hospital together
11 with Betulla Qaili, the brother of Atulla. We went there around 8.00
12 a.m., and from reception asked the employee about the extension of the
13 doctor whom did I spoke yesterday about one patient. Further on I
14 explained the employee that the doctor invited me to come today, provided
15 me with more details about the patient health condition. But I did not
16 say and the employee, the name of patient, as being Atulla Qaili.
17 Nevertheless, I do not know whether the employee knew what doctor did I
18 speak yesterday, but told me to dial extension number 15, and I
19 immediately recognised by the voice the same doctor as I spoke to
21 So is that correct, Mr. Qaili, that the visit to the hospital with
22 Imer took place the day after he had had that original conversation with
23 the doctor who informed him that Atulla was at the hospital; is that
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. And then at paragraph 8, Imer says the following:
2 "I explained the doctor that I am the person who was asking
3 yesterday about Atulla Qaili's hospitalisation --"
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. I'm still reading from the statement of your cousin, Mr. Qaili. I
6 will ask you a question afterwards. And he says:
7 "I got advice to come to the morgue. The doctor recognised me and
8 apologised, saying that it was a mistake, because when we talked together
9 about Atulla Qaili, he meant by mistake another person. He did not say
10 anything else and just put the phone down so I could not ask him other
12 Is that correct, sir, that Mr. Arifi did not suggest that the
13 doctor told him during that conversation or in the prior conversation that
14 the police would not let you see Atulla; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. And then in paragraph 9 of the statement, he says that you left
17 the hospital, and I would like to ask the Registry to go to paragraph 12
18 of this statement. That's the next page.
19 It's again the same statement, Mr. Qaili, and it's a different
20 paragraph. This is what Imer said about the doctor in question, the
21 doctor to whom he talked:
22 "Being asked if I know the name of the doctor in Skopje Town
23 Hospital, I say I do not know and it was the first time in my life I spoke
24 to this person."
25 Is that correct, Mr. Qaili, that in fact Imer did not know the
1 doctor in question?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Sir, you've explained to the Prosecution and to the Trial Chamber
4 that you made a number of efforts and attempts to locate your brother,
5 Atulla, and I would like to ask you a few questions about that.
6 You recall mentioning to the Prosecution that sometimes after you
7 had recovered the body of your brother, three policemen came to your house
8 to ask you questions and ask you for documents about your brother, Atulla;
9 do you recall that?
10 A. Yes, that's correct, but I was not there. I was at work. They
11 asked my wife. My wife told them that I was at work, and they left.
12 Q. And is that correct that three or so days later, they came back to
13 see you and ask you for information and documentation about your brother?
14 A. I don't remember whether they came after three days or not. I
15 don't remember.
16 Q. But can you remember, sir, that they indeed came back shortly
17 after to ask you for that information?
18 A. They were once, but I don't remember when they came again. First
19 they met with my wife, but I don't remember when they came for the second
20 time. A lot of time has passed from then.
21 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown P383. That's the
22 statement of the witness that's just been admitted. And if I could ask
23 the Registry to go to page 8 of the document, please.
24 This would be -- for the Registry, this would be paragraph 36, and
25 in the Albanian version as well.
1 Q. Mr. Qaili, I will read a number of paragraphs from your statement
2 which you gave to the Prosecution. It will appear on your screen as well.
3 Paragraph 36, you were recorded as saying the following:
4 "10, 15 days later, after burial of my brother, Atulla, three
5 policemen came to my house and asking my wife whether I'm at home. My
6 wife explained them that I am working and I'm not at home. They did not
7 say why they were looking for me and just left."
8 Do you recall that, Mr. Qaili?
9 A. They told her something about the documents, because I requested
10 the ID, the driving permit, I asked the police about these documents, and
11 they came to inquire whether we had found them or not.
12 Q. And then at paragraph 37 of your statement, you are recorded as
13 saying the following:
14 "Three days later again three policemen in uniforms came to my
15 house, asking me if I have some personal documents of my brother Atulla or
16 if I have any photos from his burial in Ljuboten."
17 Do you recall saying that to the Prosecution?
18 A. I had photos, but I didn't give them for security reasons. I did
19 have photos.
20 Q. And in fact you explained that you did not give them those
21 pictures, but instead told them that you did not possess those pictures
22 and documents; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And your concern at the time was that if you were to give them
25 those documents, they might destroy them; is that the reason why you did
1 not give them those documents?
2 A. For security concerns, this is why I didn't give the photos to the
4 Q. And by "security concerns," Mr. Qaili, do you mean to say that you
5 were concerned that they would destroy or make those pictures disappear or
6 is that something else?
7 A. They could do anything. They could even take me to prison. This
8 is the reason why I didn't give these photos.
9 Q. Is that correct that after you had told them you did not possess
10 any of those pictures or documents, the three policemen just left; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that fair to say also, Mr. Qaili, that at the time you did not
14 trust the Macedonian police?
15 A. Not only at that time; even today I do not trust the Macedonian
17 Q. And is it fair to say that you understood at the time that if you
18 were to give them those pictures, they may not use it for the purpose of
19 investigating what happened to your brother?
20 A. I am sure they wouldn't take any action, they would just tear
21 them, and nothing would have been done.
22 Q. Now, are you aware, Mr. Qaili, that the police in fact made a
23 number of efforts to try to establish the identity of your brother? Are
24 you aware of those efforts?
25 A. No. I'm sure they didn't do anything. If they had done
1 something, he had all his personal documents. They certainly wouldn't
2 have taken him to the morgue without a name and -- a family name.
3 Q. And are you aware that the police actually sought and obtained
4 information that allowed them to identify your brother; is that something
5 you are aware of?
6 A. No.
7 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'll simply give the numbers of the
8 document for the transcript. It's 1D69.
9 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Qaili --
10 It's an exhibit, I apologise, Exhibit 1D69.
11 Are you aware, Mr. Qaili, that the police also carried out a
12 papillary line test on the hand of your brother who had identified him;
13 are you aware of that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the result of this test was then
16 compared to documentations which the police had obtained which allowed
17 them to identify your brother as Atulla Qaili; are you aware of that?
18 A. I don't know. When I went to the morgue, I found him, and he had
19 no identity. It's me that gave his name. The morgue gave me this
20 document, and then I buried him.
21 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, simply for the record, it's Exhibit
22 1D70 and 1D68.
23 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Qaili, that an autopsy had been performed on
24 your brother Atulla by the Forensic Institute in Skopje after his death?
25 A. No, I am not. I know only that an autopsy was performed on him
1 after six months, but not before.
2 Q. Were you aware that shortly after his death, this autopsy was
3 carried out by the Forensic Institute to determine the cause and
4 circumstances of his death? Is that information you had in your
5 possession at the time?
6 A. No, I didn't know that.
7 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, for the record, it's Exhibit P49,
8 among other documents.
9 Q. Are you aware, sir, that the result of the autopsy at that time
10 were then sent to the competent investigative judge in Skopje; is that
11 information you possessed at the time?
12 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
13 Q. Yes, sir, I apologise. Are you or were you aware at the time that
14 the result of the autopsy that was carried out on your brother Atulla were
15 sent to the investigative judge in Skopje?
16 A. No, I'm not.
17 MR. METTRAUX: For the record, it will be the transcript of these
18 proceedings 19th of June, 2007, page 2342, and 20 June 2007, page 2408.
19 Q. Were you aware at the time, Mr. Qaili, that the investigative
20 judge had made requests for information to the forensic experts who had
21 carried out the autopsy?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. Were you aware at the time that the autopsy report of Atulla and
24 the court medical file of your brother were both provided to the
25 investigative judge?
1 A. I don't know what they did. I know what I did, personally.
2 Q. So am I correct to understand that you were not aware that this
3 report, the autopsy report and the --
4 A. I didn't know anything about that.
5 Q. Did you know that the competent investigative judge had visited
6 the Forensic Institute in Skopje to make inquiries about your brother; did
7 you know that?
8 A. No.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, it would be P54, N001-9699-80-001.
10 It's Exhibit P54.
11 Q. Were you aware, Mr. Qaili, that the investigative judge also
12 visited the Skopje city hospital at the time to collect information about
13 your brother?
14 A. No, I was not.
15 Q. And do you know that the public prosecutor of Skopje in fact
16 issued an order to carry out an autopsy on your brother Atulla; were you
17 aware of that?
18 A. No, I wasn't.
19 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honours, this is P54 and P59.
20 Q. Were you aware of the fact, Mr. Qaili, that the Ministry of
21 Interior had in fact supported the suggestion of an autopsy for your
22 brother; were you aware of that?
23 A. No.
24 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, it's 1D33.
25 Q. Were you aware also that a request to the competent investigative
1 judge had been made by the public prosecutor to investigate the
2 circumstances of the death of your brother; were you aware of that?
3 A. No, no, I wasn't aware of that.
4 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown, Your Honour,
5 1D227. It has an ERN 1D00-2452, and again it has neither an Albanian or
6 Macedonian translation.
7 Q. Mr. Qaili, this is the Prosecution's statement of a person called
8 Jovan Serafimovski, who is a public prosecutor, and I'll read a paragraph
9 to you. There is no Albanian version of this document.
10 If the Registry could go to the third page of that document at
11 paragraph 7, please.
12 Mr. Qaili, I will read a number of sentences from the statement of
13 that person, and then I'll ask you a question about it. This is what
14 Mr. Serafimovski said:
15 "In the request to conduct an investigation submitted on 14 August
16 2001, the name of Qani, Atulla is mentioned. It was my obligation to
17 ascertain the cause of death. I asked the investigative judge, Velce
18 Pancevski, to inquire about this. We found out that Qani, Atulla was
19 injured during a clash with the police and the army in Ljuboten."
20 Were you aware, sir, that such a request had been made by
21 Mr. Serafimovski to Mr. Pancevski?
22 A. I don't know, but that is not true about my brother having fought
23 with the police. I don't know anything. I know that there were fighting
24 in Ljuboten. I know simply that my brother was taken in the basement and
25 then he got lost.
1 Q. Sorry, Mr. Qaili, I think it might have been due to the
2 translation. The statement of the persons that they found, not fought,
3 simply that they had found your brother at the hospital.
4 Were you aware, Mr. Qaili, that after the investigative judge had
5 obtained this information, criminal charges that had been raised against
6 your brother were dropped; were you aware of that fact?
7 A. I don't know anything about that.
8 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, this is Exhibit P46.
9 Q. Mr. Qaili, were you aware that in the weeks and months following
10 the incident, the police sought to obtain information about the deceased
11 from villagers; are you aware of that?
12 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. I don't know anything about the
13 police having inquired about him. I only know about my own efforts. The
14 police never did anything to find out whether he was dead or alive. I
15 only know that when I inquired about him in the police, they said, "He's
16 not here."
17 Q. Are you aware of the fact, Mr. Qaili, that the police actually
18 approached one village leader from Ljuboten, asking him to approach the
19 families of the deceased for information; are you aware of that fact?
20 A. No. That is not true. I don't know anything.
21 Q. Do you know someone called Kenan Saliu or Kenan Salievski; do you
22 know about him?
23 A. I do, yes, I do.
24 Q. And is that correct that he's one of the village leader in
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Did Mr. Saliu or Salievski ever ask you to provide information
3 about your brother to the police?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Please ask the witness to speak slowly when he
5 makes longer sentences and articulate better.
6 A. No.
7 MR. METTRAUX:
8 Q. Mr. Qaili, we're being asked to speak a bit more clearly or more
9 loudly, if you can. Perhaps it's the microphones that are too far from
11 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, this is Exhibit P104.
12 Q. Mr. Qaili, you've also indicated that your brother was exhumed, I
13 understand, sometime in the year 2002. Do you recall that?
14 A. When the autopsy was performed, when they exhumed him, I don't
15 know whether it was after three months or six months, all of them were
16 exhumed and they were -- performed an autopsy on them. And this is the
17 only thing I know and I have said. All the world knows about that.
18 Q. Now, are you aware of the fact that the request for exhumation and
19 autopsy had come from the investigative judge; are you aware of that fact?
20 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
21 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, this is inter alia P49, transcript of
22 20 June 2007, page 2393.
23 Q. Mr. Qaili, I have only a few more questions.
24 Is that correct that the name Cajani as appeared on some medical
25 records is the name -- or the family name of your in-laws; is that
2 A. No, no. The name of my wife -- that is the last name of my wife,
4 Q. Yes, that was my question. Is that correct that it is the family
5 name of the family of your wife; is that true?
6 A. Yes, of my in-laws.
7 Q. And if you can help with this, were you aware of the fact that the
8 wife of your brother Atulla had left the village of Ljuboten on Friday,
9 the 10th of August; are you aware of that fact?
10 A. Not on the 10th, but on the 11th of August. It was Saturday, the
11 evening of Saturday, and they came straight to my home.
12 MR. METTRAUX: Mr. Qaili, thank you for your patience.
13 Your Honour, that's all.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Zivkovic.
15 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
16 Cross-examination by Ms. Zivkovic:
17 Q. Mr. Qaili, good afternoon. My name is Jasmina Zivkovic, and
18 together with Mr. Apostolski, we represent Mr. Johan Tarculovski.
19 I am sorry. I had some problems with my headphones.
20 Mr. Qaili, in Ljuboten from 10th to 12th of August you were in
21 Skopje; is that correct?
22 A. Yes. I live in Skopje.
23 Q. And you didn't know what exactly happened in Ljuboten from 10th
24 and 12th of August, with the exception of what you heard from your
25 neighbours in Skopje; is this correct?
1 A. Yes, but we could see the smoke and the flame rising out of the
2 village. You could see that from Skopje. But I wasn't there myself,
3 that's true.
4 Q. You neither know where your brother Atulla was during the events
5 in Ljuboten, you know only what the others told you?
6 A. He was at home. I'm certain that he was at home. My other
7 brother was there. Everybody was there.
8 Q. But you weren't there, and you cannot confirm this?
9 A. I wasn't there, but my other brother, who is still alive, can
10 testify to that.
11 Q. All right. As you said to my learned colleague, you know that he
12 started with the other villagers, but on half way he changed his mind and
13 he climbed off of the tractor?
14 A. No, I didn't -- I didn't say that, never did I mention that he
15 started to leave, but he was taken by the police in the basement along
16 with some eight or ten other people. The others are still alive, whereas
17 he disappeared.
18 Q. But his wife said that he descended the tractor and to stay home;
19 is this correct?
20 A. I wasn't there. I don't know that he got on the tractor or not.
21 I already stated that I was not at the village, and I am repeating it. I
22 was not in the village.
23 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Qaili.
24 I don't have any more questions. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
2 MR. NEUNER: First of all, I want to ask that the permission to
3 burial, which I've shown to this witness during the examination-in-chief,
4 is tendered into evidence. The 65 ter number was 279.2. The ERN was
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.
7 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour. We don't really have an
8 objection to the document being tendered and admitted, Your Honour. We
9 would simply wish to know what the purpose of the tendering of the
10 document is, and in particular whether the Prosecution seeks to rely to
11 any of the information contained in this document as being accurate,
12 because there seems to be an inaccuracy as relate to the date of the death
13 of Mr. Qaili. We would simply seek a clarification from the Prosecution
14 in relation to this matter.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, only if Mr. Neuner wants to give it, because
16 it was a document you introduced, you understand.
17 Yes, Mr. Neuner.
18 MR. NEUNER: I don't have the paragraph now in front of me, but
19 Betulla Qaili has dealt in his own statement with the date itself. The
20 statement has been admitted by Your Honours, and I will be probably on one
21 of the other days in a position to submit the exact paragraph of his
23 I can also ask the witness. As far as I know, he has received
24 several documents, had compared the date --
25 JUDGE PARKER: Are you pursuing the question of date of death?
1 MR. NEUNER: Yes. My learned friend had mentioned that --
2 JUDGE PARKER: And are you pursuing it just to have clarified
3 whether the exhibit is accurate or are you pursuing it on the basis that
4 the exhibit is accurate and any other evidence is wrong?
5 MR. NEUNER: I would -- my submission would be that the permission
6 of burial, the fact that this was issued as such, is accurate. Whether
7 the information contained therein might differ from other evidence which
8 is on the Prosecution's -- among the Prosecution's exhibits is another
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 Mr. Mettraux, you can take it that Mr. Neuner is not advancing the
12 content of the document as necessarily accurate.
13 MR. METTRAUX: Simply for the record, Your Honour, we didn't use
14 this document. This is a document that was used by the Prosecution. And
15 also for the record, there was no challenge to the -- there was no
16 challenge to the actual date of the death of Mr. Qaili through Mr. -- Dr.
17 Jacovski, and yesterday I believe Mr. Saxon also at page 66 pointed out
18 the date of the death being the 13th of August.
19 JUDGE PARKER: That was my error. I'm sorry for that,
20 Mr. Mettraux.
21 Does this matter arise out of cross-examination, then, Mr. Neuner?
22 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. If you could please explain
24 JUDGE PARKER: Did you merely forget to tender this?
25 MR. NEUNER: Correct.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Well, then we'll receive it as an act of goodwill.
2 MR. NEUNER: Thank you very much.
3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be received as Exhibit P384, Your Honours.
4 MR. NEUNER: I have just one question, Mr. Qaili.
5 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:
6 Q. You were asked about Abdullah Cajani or about the name Cajani. To
7 the best of your recollection, does the person Abdullah Cajani exist in
8 Ljuboten village?
9 A. In Ljuboten village, there are many families, five or six
10 families. Each of them has its own last name. There is a family by this
11 last name of Cajani, but there is not such a name of Abdullah Cajani, at
12 least for the last 20 years. Before 20 years, I don't -- for people over
13 20 years, no. But for younger people, maybe, yes.
14 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Qaili, that concludes the questions that are to
16 be asked of you. The Chamber is grateful that you have been able to come
17 to The Hague and for the assistance that you've been able to give. We
18 realise that the loss of your brother in this way is very disturbing to
20 You are now able to return to your home and your family. The
21 Court Officer will show you out. Thank you indeed.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no further witnesses
1 to call at this time. However, the Prosecution does have another matter
2 to raise with the Chamber.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, on the 30th of March, 2007, the
5 Prosecution -- excuse me, the Trial Chamber issued its -- well, I have to
6 actually ask the Chamber to go into private session, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
8 [Private session]
11 Page 3900 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
8 The Chamber has received six statements pursuant to Rules 92 bis
9 for two of them and 92 ter for four of them, in accordance with earlier
10 decisions, and Mr. Saxon will now briefly summarise their content.
11 The tapes will last six minutes.
12 MR. SAXON: Then I better speak quickly.
13 The witness Kire Ruseski, Your Honour, the written witness
14 statement, will testify -- the statement refers to the duty and powers of
15 the accused Ljube Boskoski as Minister of the Interior in 2001 to initiate
16 investigations into the use of fire-arms by the Macedonian police. He
17 will testify to the role of the head of the Professional Standards Unit
18 and the duty of that head of the Professional Standards Unit to report to
19 the Minister of the Interior.
20 Your Honour, the statement of Ramus Jashari describes the attack
21 on Ljuboten during the weekend of 10 to 12 August, 2001, the gunfire and
22 shelling that had begun previously on the morning of 10th August 2001, the
23 intensifying of gunfire and shelling on the morning of the morning of
24 12 August 2001, beginning at approximately 8.00 to 8.30 a.m., and the fact
25 that the witness did not see anyone in Ljuboten village providing armed
1 resistance to the Macedonian security forces participating in the attack.
2 The witness also refers to the destruction of homes of several persons in
3 the village, including his own home and the home of Afet Jashari which
4 were burned.
5 Your Honour, witness Marie von Baltenau testified to statements
6 provided by 25 Ljuboten residents, ethnic Albanian Ljuboten residents, to
7 members of the OSCE following their release from prison in Macedonia in
8 December 2001. These 25 statements describe the murder and cruel
9 treatment of Ljuboten residents both during the attack on the village on
10 12 August 2001, and subsequently in places of detention in and around
11 Ljuboten, as well as in the city of Skopje.
12 Your Honours, witness Dragoljub Cakic was a deputy public
13 prosecutor at Basic Court II in Skopje at the time of the crimes charged
14 in the amended indictment, and his statement describes Mr. Cakic's
15 judicial activities in relation to the circumstances and events arising in
16 and out of the attack on Ljuboten on 10 to 12 August 2001.
17 Your Honours, the statement of witness Muzafer Jusufovski
18 describes how he was at home on Sunday, the 12th of August, in the village
19 of Ljuboten. He was actually at the home of his cousin, Elmaz Jusufi on
20 that morning, and the witness heard a loud noise at the gate of the Jusufi
21 home followed by gunfire. The witness saw police officers in various
22 uniforms in the yard. The witness heard the door to the house being
23 thrown open and then the police fired their weapons into the Jusufi home.
24 And finally, Your Honours, the written statement of Mr. Jorgen
25 Engel describes Mr. Engel's work as the head of the office and permanent
1 and resident representative of the International Management Group in
2 Skopje, and the witness will describe -- the witness's statement will
3 describe the wanton destruction of homes and property in Ljuboten, and the
4 statement also describes the work of the International Management Group in
5 the process of reconstruction and rehabilitation in the conflict-affected
6 areas of Macedonia, including reconstruction and repairs to damaged homes
7 in Ljuboten.
8 I believe I've addressed each of the six witnesses, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon, and consecutive
10 numbers will be given to those. I anticipate they'll be Exhibits P385 to
11 P390, but we leave you to liaise finally with the Registry Officer in the
12 court to ensure that occurs.
13 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber now adjourns for the court vacation.
15 It resumes on the afternoon of Tuesday, the 21st of August, and we will no
16 doubt be able to then to proceed with the evidence at a pace which we
17 believe will need to be quickened from the pace that we have been
18 maintaining until now.
19 The tendering of these statements today should enable the Chamber
20 to issue the last decision of the various motions that have been before
21 the Chamber, other motions having been dealt with by decisions of
22 yesterday and today.
23 We hope that you will all be refreshed from the vacation, and we
24 adjourn at this point.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
1 10.36 a.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the
2 21st day of August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.