1 Tuesday, 21 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon to everybody, and we welcome you

7 back after the break.

8 Good afternoon to you, sir. Would you please take the card and

9 read aloud the affirmation that is on it.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: BLAGOJA JAKOVOSKI

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

15 Mr. Saxon will have some questions for you, but could I mention

16 that you should not be too distracted by the microphones. It will be

17 important for to you try and speak clearly so that everybody can hear you.

18 If your voice is too quiet, it is not possible for the interpreters to

19 pick up what you are saying.

20 Yes, Mr. Saxon.

21 Examination by Mr. Saxon:

22 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Sir, is your name Blagoja Jakovoski?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And are you a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And is your ethnicity Macedonian?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You work for the Ministry of the Interior of Macedonia; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please describe the career that you have had with the

7 Ministry of the Interior. When did you begin your career?

8 A. To put it briefly, since 1990, I started working in the Ministry

9 of the Interior. I've been through several jobs, two or three, and I'm

10 still with the Ministry of the Interior.

11 Q. And when you first started your career, did you work as a

12 uniformed police officer?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And after that, did you work in a Special Unit?

15 A. Posebna, yes.

16 Q. Posebna?

17 A. It is similar.

18 Q. And at some point in time, in 2001, did you come to work as a

19 security person or body-guard for Minister Ljube Boskoski?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you recall when you took up that position?

22 A. I don't remember precisely what the date was.

23 Q. Can you tell us approximately. Can you give us a month perhaps.

24 A. I think it was May.

25 Q. And --

1 A. 2001.

2 Q. And approximately for how long did you provide security for

3 Mr. Boskoski?

4 A. For about two years.

5 Q. Now at that time, when you were providing security for

6 Mr. Boskoski, were you a part of the sector of -- for security and

7 protection of the Ministry of the Interior?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And can you recall who was the head of that sector during the

10 summer of 2001?

11 A. I do not understand the question.

12 Q. Let me put it another way. Who was the chief of the minister's

13 security unit or close protection unit?

14 A. Zoran Trajkovski.

15 Q. And, normally, who did you receive your orders from?

16 A. Always from Zoran Trajkovski.

17 Q. So within the sector for security of the ministry, there was a

18 chain of command that you followed. Is that fair?

19 A. Yes, that is true.

20 Q. Would the same be true for your other colleagues in the sector for

21 security?

22 A. Yes, that is correct also.

23 Q. Mr. Jakovoski, I forgot to ask you a question earlier. What is

24 your current position within the Ministry of the Interior?

25 A. At this moment, I'm inspector in violent crime, in Police Station

1 Karpos.

2 Q. All right. As a member of the close protection unit for

3 Minister Boskoski, would it be fair to say that during 2001, or starting

4 in May of 2001, you spent a lot of time in Minister Boskoski's presence?

5 A. Yes. One could say so, yes.

6 Q. Did you come to admire Minister Boskoski?

7 A. I would fulfil my tasks professionally, upon the orders of Zoran

8 Trajkovski, my head.

9 Q. My question is something different, inspector. My question is

10 simply this, did you come to admire Minister Boskoski?

11 A. I would always carry out my taskings professionally. I'm a

12 professional.

13 Q. Inspector, it's your duty to answer my questions today. I'd like

14 an answer to my question.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Why?

17 A. Since he was my minister of the interior, he was my boss. I don't

18 know how to answer this question, why. I don't know.

19 Q. What kind of qualities did Minister Boskoski have?

20 A. Well, first he was a good manager. He carried out well the tasks

21 set forth by the prime minister. In his private life, he was a good

22 parent, good person, in my opinion, a good father.

23 Q. Was he an effective minister of the interior?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What made Mr. Boskoski effective?

1 A. Well, whatever task he was given he would carry it out in time.

2 Q. Was he a determined person?

3 A. I don't understand this question.

4 Q. Was Minister Boskoski a patriot?

5 A. I don't know. I couldn't answer this question, patriot.

6 Q. Was Minister --

7 A. I don't understand this question.

8 Q. Was Minister Boskoski loyal to Macedonia and to the Macedonian

9 people?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Was Minister Boskoski loyal to the members of the Ministry of the

12 Interior?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was Minister Boskoski a brave person, in 2001?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In 2001, was Minister Boskoski willing to make sacrifices during

17 the time of the crisis?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In 2001, did Minister Boskoski often share the risks of his police

20 officers out in the field, out near the battlefields?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And as one of his close protection officers, did you sometimes

23 accompany Minister Boskoski out to the combat areas?

24 A. I don't understand this question.

25 Q. When Minister Boskoski went out to the battlefield areas in 2001,

1 did you ever go with him as his body-guard?

2 A. Of course. I was his body-guard. I would go with him. I did not

3 accompany him. I was escorting him, guarding him.

4 Q. All right. Thank you for that correction, Inspector.

5 I'd like to show you a document right now.

6 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, we have some binders, and with the

7 permission of the court usher, we have, I believe, copies for the Chamber

8 and a copy to be given to the witness.

9 And if Your Honours, could turn to what is marked as tab 1, and if

10 Mr. Usher, if you could turn to the Macedonian version of tab 1 which is

11 in the middle there.

12 Your Honours, this is a book. It is entitled, "My Battle for

13 Macedonia" and it was published by Ljube Boskoski in 2004. You do not

14 have the entire English translation of the book in front of you. The

15 Prosecution has managed to get portions of the book translated. And it

16 is some of these portions which the Prosecution hopes to review with the

17 witness this afternoon.

18 Mr. Usher, do you need my assistance? Would you like me to help

19 you out? And this is Rule 65 ter number four. I'm sorry, I didn't tell

20 the court usher there -- I'm sorry, the court officer. The Macedonian

21 version begins here. Okay. And if could you stay with the witness,

22 Mr. Usher, because we're going to have to flip through the pages a bit.

23 Q. Inspector --

24 MR. SAXON: And my apologies to the Chamber. I misspoke. The

25 book was published. No, I did not misspeak, the book was published in

1 2004. I'm just waiting for the e-court version to come up. Is there a

2 problem?

3 That is not quite the first page. There should be a title page.

4 But we can start with this page, if you don't mind.

5 Mr. Usher, if you could turn -- turn to the next page, please, for

6 the witness.

7 Q. Inspector, we see on the second page a message from Mr. Boskoski.

8 It says: "This modest contribution to the truth about Macedonia I dedicate

9 to the immortals who with their blood confirmed their loyalty to their

10 home land. To the defenders of Macedonia."

11 Do you see that, Inspector?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then below that, above the signature of Mr. Boskoski, it says:

14 "I do not acknowledge a battle for Macedonia without its triumph."

15 If you turn to the next page -- actually, I'm sorry, Mr. Usher,

16 the next page in English says, "My Battle for Macedonia," and then

17 a subtitle, "Contribution to the clarification of the military conflict in

18 Macedonia, 2001/2002."

19 Mr. Usher, if we could turn to what is the third page. That's it;

20 should be there. And this is page 5 in the English version. Can you turn

21 perhaps one more page for the witness. There's poem there that hopefully

22 you see, Inspector. It says: "Macedonia is my pain and joy."

23 Do you see that? Could you turn one page over, please. Do you

24 see that poem beginning there now: "Macedonia is my pain and joy."

25 A. Yes.

1 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I see my colleague is on her feet.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, indeed, Ms. Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are following the

4 questions of my learned colleague the Prosecutor, and to be honest, I do

5 not understand what is the purpose of those questions, so we would like to

6 ask the Prosecutor why are we reading these sections from the book. And I

7 think it would be also a correct, proper to ask the witness whether he had

8 ever seen this book and whether he had ever read it, in order to continue

9 asking the following questions.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this book is a memoir written by the

12 accused regarding the events in 2001 and to a degree in 2002. And it's

13 the Prosecution's intention to ask the witness some questions about

14 certain parts of Mr. Boskoski's memoir, his version of the events during

15 the conflict time relevant to the period of this indictment. I can

16 certainly ask the witness whether he has seen the book before or not, but

17 that is really the Prosecution's submission, Your Honour, neither here nor

18 there. This witness was a member of the accused's close protection unit.

19 He would have spent an inordinately amount of time with the witness during

20 the crucial months of the summer of 2001 and I would like to explore with

21 him several passages related to those events.

22 JUDGE PARKER: You may do so, Mr. Saxon, but will you do it with

23 an eye to time.

24 MR. SAXON: Absolutely.

25 JUDGE PARKER: You are moving at a very cautious pace so far.

1 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.

2 If we can turn, please, to what you will see, Mr. Usher --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?

4 JUDGE PARKER: If you would just listen to the questions Mr. Saxon

5 puts to you an answer those, that will be our most quick way of dealing

6 with this matter. Thank you.

7 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if you turn the page to the fifth page,

8 excuse me, to the 15th page, and it is numbered now with page numbers. So

9 can you turn to the -- where it says page 15 on the bottom. And this is

10 at page 10 of the English version.

11 Q. Can you see, Inspector, at the bottom of page 15 it says: "I,

12 Ljube Boskoski, already accepted by the people as Brother Ljube?"

13 A. No.

14 THE INTERPRETER: We could not get the answer. Could the witness

15 move closer to the microphone.

16 MR. SAXON: You need to move closer to the microphone, please.

17 JUDGE PARKER: And speak louder.

18 MR. SAXON:

19 Q. You see the paragraph where it says, "I, Ljube Boskoski, already

20 accepted by the people as Brother Ljube." Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Why was Minister Boskoski referred to as Brother Ljube? How did

23 that come about, if you know?

24 A. I don't know. You should ask him that.

25 Q. You have no idea why he was called Brat Ljube?

1 A. I guess, since he was close to the people, and that's why.

2 MR. SAXON: If we can turn, please, to the bottom of page 21 in

3 the English version. And, Mr. Usher, this is page 42 in the Macedonian

4 version.

5 Q. And, Inspector, you'll see in the middle of page 42 a paragraph

6 and in the middle of the paragraph and this is an interview that was

7 given -- Mr. Boskoski is describing an interview he gave in April of 2001.

8 And do you see a sentence there where it says: "Yet I sent a message to

9 them," and them in this case is the UCK, the NLA. "I sent a message to

10 them again. There are no concessions."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. Can you see in the next paragraph, the very first line and

14 this for those following in English, this is the top of page 22, a

15 sentence beginning: "This interview had a great impact on the public." Do

16 you see that line?

17 A. Yes, I can see it.

18 Q. During the spring of 2001, was Minister Boskoski receiving a lot

19 of attention in the media in Macedonia?

20 A. I don't understand the question.

21 Q. By the time you became part of Minister Boskoski's close

22 protection unit, was the minister appearing a lot in the news, in the

23 media, in Macedonia?

24 A. To -- to quite a degree, yes.

25 Q. Okay.

1 MR. SAXON: If we can turn, please, in the Macedonian version to

2 page 46, to page 23 of the English version.

3 Inspector, you'll see on the left side of page 46 you see a

4 paragraph saying: "I immediately set off for Tetovo."

5 Do you see that line? Do you see the paragraph beginning with

6 that line.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This paragraph reads: "I immediately set off for Tetovo." This

9 was on the 16th of May, 2001. "I wanted to acquaint myself with the

10 situation on the very spot. This became a regular practice for me,

11 because I am a man who wants to observe the situation up close, and the

12 security situation in the Republic of Macedonia at that time demanded that

13 I be always with the Macedonian defenders in the field. That is, in the

14 immediate focus of events. There, where the hoots of bullets next your

15 own ears is a reality."

16 Do you see what I've just read?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did Minister Boskoski often go out to the battlefield areas?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. SAXON: If we can turn now to what is page 60 in the

22 Macedonian version, and this will be page 29 in the English version.

23 Q. Inspector, on the left side of page 60 in the Macedonian version,

24 and for those following in English this is at the bottom of page 29,

25 there's a box and the box has a heading. It says,"Fourth Assassination

1 Attempt." Do you see that? On the left side right here. Do you see

2 that?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And then it reads: "On the 3rd of June, in the vicinity of

5 Matejce police station, while Minister Boskoski was getting information

6 about the situation in this part of the front, machine-gun fire was opened

7 on him and the group accompanying him. After the unsuccessful attempt,

8 the terrorists undertook a fierce attack in order to eliminate him, yet

9 the attack was defied by the Ministry of Interior guard and security

10 units."

11 Are you following with me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you with Minister Boskoski that day, if you can recall?

14 A. No, I don't recall this event.

15 Q. All right. Well, I would like to show you a video then.

16 MR. SAXON: If we can turn away from the book for a moment, and if

17 we can please view a clip from what is Rule 65 ter number 974. This is a

18 video-clip from Macedonian television made around the 3rd of June, 2001.

19 Q. And, Inspector, I would like you to watch this video closely,

20 please.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. SAXON: Stop.

23 Q. Inspector, do you recognise the people now in this video that you

24 can see here?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Who do we see first in the foreground wearing the blue helmet?

2 A. I do not understand the question.

3 Q. Who is the person you see here wearing the helmet?

4 A. The minister of interior, Ljube Boskoski.

5 Q. Okay. And just behind him, is that you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. So at least on this particular trip you were with the

8 minister. Can we agree on that?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. SAXON: Can we continue the tape, please.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

13 Your Honour, I would seek to tender that video-clip.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MR. SAXON: I can ask additional questions if the Chamber prefers.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Our concern is to see how it is going to assist the

17 case. What is its relevance.

18 MR. SAXON: Well, the -- in the Prosecution's submission, Your

19 Honour, the -- the fact that the minister of the interior, the accused

20 Boskoski, went out into the field so often -- actually, what I need to do

21 Your Honour, if I will give me some leave is ask perhaps a few more

22 questions to further establish the relevance.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Please do.

24 MR. SAXON:

25 Q. Inspector, what did Minister Boskoski do when he went out to the

1 battle areas like this?

2 A. As minister of the interior, normally he extended support to the

3 police officers.

4 Q. And, for example, how would Minister Boskoski do that? Who would

5 he meet with on these trips?

6 A. I think he was in contact with everyone, regardless of rank and

7 position.

8 Q. You're saying everyone within the police units?

9 A. You asked me about on the ground, who could be there on the

10 ground.

11 Q. All right. But when you say he was in contact with everyone,

12 regardless of rank and position, referring to people who are members of

13 the police, the Ministry of the Interior?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How did the members of these police units respond when

16 Minister Boskoski came to visit them at the battlefield?

17 A. They carried out their tasks immediately and so to say, they

18 cooperated. They worked with the minister.

19 Q. And on -- on these visits, did you ever hear Minister Boskoski

20 give instructions to the members of the police out at the battlefield?

21 A. I have not seen that. Perhaps moral support.

22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, in the Prosecution's submission this

23 video-clip is relevant to the issue of the effective control of the

24 accused Boskoski over police units out in the field, and therefore, it is

25 at least relevant to the matters in this case.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all,

3 effective control should be established by the Prosecutor towards the

4 executors of the acts for which is listed by the Prosecution in the

5 indictment. Therefore, this proposal that the video-clip could in that

6 direction give the response on the question of effective control is of no

7 significance, absolutely of no significance.

8 Secondly, when we talk about the general effective control, the

9 witness was clear on this case. He had never heard on the battlefield the

10 minister give orders and that mainly this was main -- moral support in

11 question which in no way does not contribute to the clarification of the

12 issue of effective control from the listed regions. Therefore, we

13 objected to taking this exhibit as evidence.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P401, Your Honours.

16 MR. SAXON: Can we turn, please, to what is at page 63 in the

17 Macedonian version, and it's the middle of page 31 in the English version.

18 Q. And you'll see, Inspector, in the middle of page 63, in your

19 version, a paragraph beginning with: "These were the days."

20 Do you see that sentence, the middle paragraph. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. This is in the middle of page 31 in the English version.

23 And this paragraph reads thusly: "These were the days in which I

24 was working until the last atom in my body. My alertness and engagement

25 could not be measured by 24 or 48 hours, but by series of nights and days

1 without sleep. Yet with an unbreakable desire in the fight for Macedonia.

2 Mainly, owing to my young age, stamina and my unshakeable Macedonian

3 patriotism in which there is room for every human being, for all citizens

4 of whatever ethnic or religious group if they sincerely and truly loved

5 Macedonia."

6 Do you see that, inspector?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And can you confirm that during that period of the spring,

9 beginning of June 2001, Minister Boskoski was working very, very hard?

10 A. Can you repeat the question, please. I did not understand.

11 Q. Was it your impression that the minister in 2001, in the

12 spring/summer of 2001 was working day and night?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. The paragraph ends: "In those sleepless nights

15 and days, I became aware of the dangerous traps for the government with

16 the military conflict being on top of all worries, which for the

17 Macedonians in Macedonia and in the whole world had become a war for their

18 fatherland from which there was no way back until the final victory and

19 the final defeat of the terrorists and other enemies was achieved."

20 Do you see what I've just read to you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At that time, Inspector, were you inspired by the activities, the

23 dedication of Minister Boskoski?

24 A. I do not understand the question. What do you mean "inspired"?

25 Q. Did you feel that Minister Boskoski was an inspiration to you and

1 other members of the Ministry of the Interior?

2 A. Yes, in a way.

3 Q. During that time, during the crisis months of the summer of 2001,

4 were there police reservists mobilised?

5 A. I don't -- I don't know. I don't know about this.

6 Q. Okay. Let me ask you another question. During the crisis time in

7 2001, were you aware that ethnic Macedonians, patriots volunteered to be

8 reservists? Were you aware of that? Did you know people who did that?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Okay. If you go a little bit further down the page, Inspector, to

11 the next paragraph you see a line that says: "So on 6th June 2001."

12 Do you see that? The next paragraph, a few lines from the

13 beginning, do you see the date 6th June 2001?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There it says: "On 6th June 2001, I had a statement for the

16 journalists." And then, if you follow that along on the next page

17 Inspector, later in that paragraph the statement says this: "We must not

18 allow for the terrorists to lead us to the negotiation table and talk to

19 them. To the question whether the high state officials were seriously

20 considering to declare the state of war, I gave a moderate and decisive

21 answer."

22 And then the last line it says: "The terrorists enter Macedonia

23 from Kosovo and the Macedonian security forces will act everywhere

24 terrorist movement is noticed until they are completely destroyed."

25 Do you see that, Inspector.

1 A. [No interpretation].

2 Q. Excuse me?

3 A. No, no, I don't see that.

4 Q. Okay. Can you go to the top of page 64, please. Do you see at

5 the top of page 64, it says: "We must not allow for the terrorists to

6 lead us to the negotiation table."

7 Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then the last sentence, it says that: "the security forces

10 will act everywhere terrorist movement is noticed until they are

11 completely destroyed." The last sentence of that paragraph. Do you see

12 that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you hear Minister Boskoski express these beliefs in public

15 during the summer of 2001?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did he express these beliefs to you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. In 2001, Inspector, did you know a man named Johan Tarculovski?

20 Can you recall knowing Johan Tarculovski?

21 A. Very -- too little.

22 Q. Well, can you recall how you knew him, even just a little?

23 A. Since he was my colleague, he worked in the Ministry of Interior.

24 Otherwise, I have not had any personal contact with him.

25 Q. Can you recall in 2001 ever seeing Johan Tarculovski with

1 Minister Boskoski?

2 A. I do not understand the question. Where do you mean? Where do

3 you mean have I seen him.

4 Q. For example, can you recall seeing Mr. Tarculovski and

5 Minister Boskoski meeting, for example, in restaurants? Can you recall

6 that?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 Q. Would it help you recall if I show you the statement that you gave

9 to the Office of the Prosecutor a few years ago, where you talked about

10 this? Would that help you recall?

11 A. If I may clarify, perhaps I've said this in a context that they

12 had met by chance, but meetings and sitting together, no. Because all

13 wanted to greet Ljube at that time. Perhaps this is the context in which

14 you understood me.

15 Q. And would you see Johan Tarculovski greet Minister Boskoski at

16 private places, like restaurants when you were with the minister?

17 A. Yes, on several occasions.

18 Q. And, tell me, in 2001, did Johan Tarculovski have a reputation as

19 a brave officer, a fighter?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Do you know if Johan Tarculovski fought in combat during those

22 crisis months?

23 A. I don't know this either.

24 Q. Do you know whether Johan Tarculovski was a member of the Posebna

25 unit during 2001?

1 A. I don't know. I'm -- I was the security officer. I was not a

2 member of this. Have you to ask others about this question.

3 Q. Can you recall knowing a man in 2001 named Zoran Jovanovski who

4 was also known as Bucuk?

5 A. Yes, I have heard of him too.

6 Q. And do you recall at that time what the man known as Bucuk did for

7 a living?

8 A. I don't recall. I don't remember.

9 Q. Would it help you to recall if I show you your statement from 2004

10 to the Office of the Prosecutor where you explained where this man known

11 as Bucuk worked?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Very well. Then we have copies of Inspector Jakovoski's statement

14 in English and Macedonian. If a Macedonian version could be provided to

15 the witness, please.

16 And can you turn, Inspector, to paragraph 24 of your statement,

17 please, in the Macedonian version.

18 MR. SAXON: Can you assist him Mr. Usher.

19 Q. You see paragraph 24 begins: "Being asked who else I know from

20 Kometa which were present in Ljuboten, I can name Bucuk Jovanovski."

21 Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now does that refresh your recollection as to where the man known

24 as Bucuk worked?

25 A. Now, yes.

1 Q. In 2001, where did the man known as Bucuk work? Bucuk.

2 A. In the Kometa agency.

3 Q. Okay. And can you recall the names of other persons who also

4 worked or were associated with the Kometa agency in 2001?

5 A. I cannot recall at this time. It was a long time ago.

6 Q. Would you take a look at paragraph 24 again. It says: "Being

7 asked who else I know from Kometa which were present in Ljuboten, I can

8 name Bucuk Jovanovski, Johan Tarculovski, Sasa, the one who was wounded,

9 the brother of the wounded, Vlatko Janevski, former department chief of

10 the Kometa. These ones I can identify."

11 Does that help refresh your memory, Inspector?

12 A. Yes, but I cannot remember now who this Vlatko is and Sasa is. I

13 have not seen them for seven years at least.

14 Q. But time when you made this statement this information was

15 correct, to the best of your knowledge?

16 A. I cannot recall.

17 Q. Can you recall seeing Minister Boskoski and Bucuk and

18 Johan Tarculovski together during the crisis times of 2001?

19 A. I cannot recall this either.

20 Q. Would it help you to look at a part of your statement where you

21 describe this? Would that help you recall, refresh your memory?

22 A. I told you that I can't at this moment remember seeing them

23 together.

24 Q. That's exactly why I'm asking, Inspector, can I assist you by

25 asking to you look at paragraph 34 of your statement, please.

1 Paragraph 4 says: "Being asked when I have seen the last contact

2 between Bucuk and Johan, I can't tell anything of official context, but I

3 want to explain that I have seen on multiple occasions before the events

4 all three persons, the minister, Bucuk and Johan meeting on private

5 occasions as they were going to the same places. I have seen contacts in

6 places, restaurants like Fufo, Galija, Dzino, when I accompanied the

7 minister on private occasions before the events."

8 Do you see that, Inspector?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Does that help refresh your memory now?

11 A. Surely they must have seen each other. I don't know to pinpoint

12 the number but everybody sees everybody in Skopje; it is a small town.

13 And in these places where people frequent, we all see each other.

14 Q. Tell me something, back in 2001, this man known as Bucuk, was he

15 known as a brave man, a fighter?

16 A. I don't know about this.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. SAXON: If we can turn now to what would be

19 paragraph -- excuse me, page 67 of the Macedonian version of the book

20 written by Minister Boskoski, and this is at page 33, Your Honours, of the

21 English version. And at this page, if you take a look at the second

22 paragraph, Inspector, in the middle of the page, here Minister Boskoski is

23 describing the events undertaken by the Macedonian security forces against

24 the terrorists in Aracinovo. Do you see that, the very middle of the

25 page, middle of page 67? "Everything was ready to undertake the

1 Macedonian security forces decisive actions against the terrorists in

2 Aracinovo."

3 Do you see that, Inspector, that line?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then it say this, the next sentence: "The only thing we were

6 waiting for was the order from the state highest officials and the crisis

7 management coordination body. I did not agree with the indecisive views

8 of this body which were pushing Macedonia into negotiations with the

9 terrorists, something that the great Albanian national chauvinist centres

10 truly wanted. I made up my mind. I resigned my membership from this body

11 and proposed Refet Elmazi in my place."

12 Do you see that, Inspector?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At that time when Minister Boskoski resigned from the crisis

15 management coordination body for the reasons that he explained, were you

16 proud of him, you and your colleagues?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe the witness should be asked

20 first whether he knows at all that the minister resigned from this

21 coordination body so that he could be asked the following question then.

22 Thank you.

23 MR. SAXON:

24 Q. Were you aware, Inspector, that the minister resigned from the

25 coordination body in protest of the indecisive policies of certain

1 members?

2 A. I didn't know.

3 Q. If you can take a look at what is page 69 of your version. It's a

4 chapter beginning with "The people's response." This is the bottom of page

5 33 of the English version. And here Minister Boskoski is describing the

6 actions of the security forces in Aracinovo. Do you see that first

7 paragraph there, Inspector?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. SAXON: Can the inspector's second microphone be turned on,

10 please..

11 Q. A little ways down in that paragraph it says: "So they went ahead

12 and the "they" are the members of the security forces. "So they went ahead

13 to defend Macedonia and its capital Skopje by crying out, Everything for

14 Macedonia."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When I was encouraging them and seeing them off into the fire,

18 they were saluting me with "everything for Macedonia."

19 Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This salute, "Everything for Macedonia," what did it mean and why

22 did the police officers use it to the minister?

23 A. Firstly, I have to say that I do not remember this being said,

24 this statement. And secondly, of course if someone lives in Macedonia he

25 would be for Macedonia, not for any other state.

1 Q. All right. Can we move on, please, to what is page 72 in the

2 Macedonian version, and it's page 35 in the English version.

3 Can you recall, Inspector, the end of June 2001, there were

4 demonstrations in the city of Skopje, people were upset because the NLA

5 had been allowed to pull out of the village of Aracinovo. Do you recall

6 those demonstrations?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. And do you recall providing protection to the minister when he

9 went to see those demonstrations?

10 A. During that time, I was not there. I was in Croatia as a guard to

11 the minister's family, and this is why I can't say anything about this

12 situation.

13 Q. All right. Then I will move on.

14 If we can, please, can we move to page -- let me -- on the 10th of

15 August, 2001, eight Macedonian soldiers were killed in a mine explosion at

16 a place called Ljubotenski Bacila. Can you recall -- Do you recall

17 hearing about that? It was Friday, the 10th of August, eight Macedonian

18 soldiers were blown up. Do you recall that?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. SAXON: If we can, please, show the witness what is 65 ter

21 188, please. And this should be for Your Honours, tab 6 in your binders.

22 It would be tab 6 in the Inspector's binder, please. If he can be

23 shown the Macedonian version.

24 Q. You see, this is a news report, Inspector, it says, "FYROM

25 Security Council convenes 10th August, supports firm action." Do you see

1 that at the top?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It's a report from 10.00 p.m., 2200 hours Greenwich time on the

4 10th of August, reporting that the Security Council of the Republic of

5 Macedonia held a meeting, which focussed on the country's current security

6 and political situation and resulted in the adoption of a number of

7 specific conclusions. And then it says: "The Security Council paid

8 tribute to the Macedonian security forces servicemen who were killed near

9 the Skopje village of Ljubanci and expressed deep regret and sympathy to

10 their families."

11 And then it say this: "At last night's meeting, the council

12 concluded that the firm action should resume to eliminate any threat to

13 the security forces and to the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia."

14 Do you see what I've just read, Inspector?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you recall, did you accompany Minister Boskoski -- excuse me,

17 did you escort Minister Boskoski to that meeting?

18 A. I was never at the Security Council, I was a body-guard. I'm

19 not ... it's like that.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the

22 Prosecutor should first ask the witness whether he had ever seen this

23 information, whether he knows at all that the council was convened and

24 only then to proceed with asking further questions because he is a

25 body-guard and not a member of this body.

1 MR. SAXON: Well, I was on my way to doing that, Your Honour. I

2 think I have gotten part of the response that I asked for.

3 Q. Were you aware that after the mine explosion that killed eight

4 Macedonian soldiers that the Security Council called for firm action to be

5 taken?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know, were you with Minister Boskoski when he received the

8 news about the killing of the eight Macedonian servicemen?

9 A. Your Honours, let me just tell you that I never had such contact

10 with the minister, that the minister would tell me what decisions were

11 brought by the Security Council or any such important information, so I

12 could not reply to this question either.

13 Q. Inspector, I asked you a very different question and I'd like a

14 response, please. My response was this -- my question was this: On the

15 10th of August, 2001, were you with Minister Boskoski when he received the

16 news that eight Macedonian soldiers had been killed at Ljubotenski

17 Bacila?

18 A. I don't recall, and, secondly, the minister never told me any such

19 thing that they were killed. That police officers were killed in

20 Ljubanci.

21 Q. All right.

22 MR. SAXON: Can we please return to Mr. Boskoski's book; this is

23 at tab 1 of your binders. And can we turn, please, to page 103 in the

24 Macedonian version. This is a separate section, Your Honour, you will see

25 a -- you will see a sticker for the first 48 pages of your binder. First

1 48 pages of tab 1. If you would turn now, please, to the second sticker,

2 which bears ERN number N000-9659. The English translation is just over

3 two pages. And there's a subtitle called "Cuckoo Eggs," to help you

4 identify this portion.

5 Inspector, I'd like to direct your attention, please, to the

6 second paragraph below the title, "Cuckoo Eggs." And it says this: "On

7 August the 10th, 2001, one more tragedy occurred."

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. "Which only strengthed the feverish pace imposed by the terrorists

11 before the signing of the Ohrid Framework Agreement. In the Ljubotenski

12 Bacila/Ljuboten Sheepfolds locality - Skopje area, there was once again a

13 terrorist ambush. Eight members of the army of the Republic of Macedonia

14 were killed and as much were heavily and lightly injured by land-mines,

15 rocket launchers and automatic weapons."

16 Are you following with me?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it says: "The Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry

19 of Defence undertook a joint operation to break up the terrorist group

20 which operated in that area. Battles were waged in the Skopje area for

21 two days already. In the official communique of the Ministry of Internal

22 Affairs, we have emphasised that in the armed clash of the joint security

23 forces of the Republic of Macedonia conducted on August 11th and 12th in

24 Ljuboten village, in the zone of Skopje, against the paramilitary armed

25 grouping the NLA terrorist, five perpetrators were killed."

1 Have you been following with me, Inspector?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On the 10th, Friday, the 10th, Saturday, the 11th of August, 2001,

4 were you present when the Minister Boskoski discussed these -- this

5 so-called joint operation, to break up the terrorist group?

6 A. I have to say again that nothing was discussed with me regarding

7 such issues.

8 Q. Okay.

9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I would move for the

10 admission of 65 ter 4, this book.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we never disputed

13 the authenticity of this book, but considering that this is a book as a

14 whole, our proposal is for the entire book to be received in evidence, if

15 it is received, and not just individual chapters that we have today here.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the reason the Prosecution has not

19 previously translated the entire book relates to CLSS policy, not

20 Prosecution policy. It is simply that CLSS has told the Prosecution that

21 they do not have the resources to translate entire books and so they

22 have -- CLSS has always strongly encouraged the Prosecution then to select

23 certain portions of books, such as this, for translation. If the

24 Chamber --

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will receive those parts of the book

2 that are presently tendered. If is thought by either Defence that some

3 other parts are material to the issues in this case, they will, in the

4 course of their cross-examination or cases identify those additional

5 parts. So we will receive ...

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE PARKER: I'm informed that the whole of the original work is

8 in fact in e-court.

9 MR. SAXON: In the English language?

10 JUDGE PARKER: No, the original book.

11 MR. SAXON: That is correct, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: And the translations are of limited parts of it.

13 MR. SAXON: That is correct.

14 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will receive the work in that form in

15 which it is presently in e-court. In other words, the whole of the

16 Macedonian book and that part of it which is translated. If reliance is

17 intended to be placed on any part which is presently only in Macedonian,

18 then that will need to be specifically raised in cross-examination with

19 the witness and translations provided into English in due course, if it is

20 thought that there are material passages in the Macedonian version which

21 have not been translated into English.

22 So it will be received on that basis.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P402, Your Honours.

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, rather than starting another major topic

25 now, would it be appropriate to take the first break at this time?

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon. We will adjourn now and resume

2 at ten minutes past 4.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

6 MR. SAXON:

7 Q. Inspector, I'd like to ask you, please, to turn your mind to the

8 morning of 12th of August, 2001. Can you recall what you did on that

9 morning?

10 A. This was a long time ago, but I could recall that we were

11 constantly going to the battle grounds.

12 Q. Would it help you to refresh your memory to look at the statement

13 you gave several years ago where you describe what you did on that

14 morning, please? If you take a look at what is paragraph 12.

15 Paragraph 12 says: "On Sunday, I was starting my work at 0800.

16 Myself, Medarov, Laste, and Branko Pejcinovski were on duty this day. We

17 have a room in the cabinet where the body-guards are located. From there

18 we were going to pick up the minister. I think it was 08.15 when we were

19 picking him up on this Sunday morning. On this day, we were using two

20 cars. One car was black, armoured Jeep Cherokee. The other one was a

21 black Chrysler car. We were going to the cabinet at around 0830. The

22 minister went inside and we were waiting in our room, the room which is

23 right to the room for the Minister of Interior. Then we were leaving the

24 Ministry of Interior.

25 The next station we went was a hairdresser in Skopje, in the area

1 of Madzari. We arrived at around 10.00. The shop was especially opened

2 for the minister. The owner is a friend of the minister. I was inside

3 with the minister, and I remember that he received a call from

4 President Trajkovski. I don't know the content of the conversation which

5 was spoken. I only heard that the minister addressed the name President.

6 Therefore, I say it was a conversation with President Trajkovski. We were

7 leaving after half an hour. The next destination was Volkovo village near

8 Skopje. We stopped in the middle of the village at around 11.00 and we

9 stayed for around 15 minutes. The minister spoke with the relatives of

10 people who died in the conflict. I don't know who these persons were.

11 Afterwards, we were going directly from Volkovo to Ljubanci. The minister

12 told the driver to go now to Ljubanci next."

13 Inspector, does this help to you refresh your memory about what

14 you did on that Sunday morning?

15 A. Yes. Well, I can say that up to a point the text is correct, and

16 that I can recall that we went to Volkovo. As for having been to Volkovo,

17 either I have not understood the person who questioned me or it was my

18 mistake.

19 Q. All right. Is there anything else that is not correct?

20 A. When this deposition was being taken, when I was giving my

21 statement I said that I cannot recall a lot of it, and now, six years

22 after even more. Therefore, I cannot say with certainty whether this is

23 correct or not.

24 Q. All right. Can you recall driving with Minister Boskoski to

25 Ljubanci on the 12th of August, that Sunday?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you recall approximately what time you and Minister Boskoski

3 arrived in Ljubanci?

4 A. Around 12.00 noon, 12.30.

5 Q. Can you recall where in Ljubanci you and the minister and others,

6 if there were more people, stopped?

7 A. We stopped in front of a house.

8 Q. And did you and the minister get out of the vehicle?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And when you stopped in front of the house and got out of the

11 vehicles, where did you and the minister go?

12 A. In the house.

13 Q. Inside the house itself, or was it the compound that included the

14 house?

15 A. In the courtyard.

16 Q. I see. And from that courtyard, could you observe the village of

17 Ljuboten?

18 A. No.

19 Q. From somewhere close to the courtyard, could you observe the

20 village of Ljuboten?

21 A. I could not see it.

22 Q. Well, we'll come to that in a little while.

23 Can you recall approximately how long you and Minister Boskoski

24 remained at that house in that courtyard?

25 A. An hour and 30 minutes.

1 Q. Can you recall who was present in the courtyard when you and the

2 minister entered?

3 A. I can only say that when we entered the courtyard, the minister

4 met with the head of -- of that municipality, of that area.

5 Q. And can you recall who else was present when you entered the

6 courtyard?

7 A. I did not see anyone else I knew.

8 Q. I didn't ask you that. I asked you if you can recall whether

9 there were other persons present. Can you recall that, Inspector?

10 A. Well, yes. There were uniformed police officers in camouflage

11 uniforms.

12 Q. Can you recall approximately how many such uniformed police

13 officers in camouflage uniforms were there?

14 A. I cannot say what their number was. I do not recall.

15 Q. Can you turn, please, to what is paragraph 17 in your statement,

16 Inspector. Take a look, Inspector, at the middle of paragraph 17. It

17 says: "We were going to a stone table in the garden. In the moment when

18 we arrived were around 50 people in police uniforms in the garden. They

19 were wearing green camouflage police uniforms."

20 Does that help to refresh your memory as to how many such police

21 officers there were?

22 A. In the statement I have said the number. This is not

23 approximately correct. Perhaps there were 100, perhaps there were 20.

24 Q. All right. Can you recall what those police officers were

25 doing when you and the minister entered the courtyard?

1 A. They stood still and greeted the minister.

2 Q. You say they stood still. What do you mean by that? Does that

3 mean they stood up or they stood at attention? I don't know what that

4 means.

5 A. They stood at attention.

6 Q. Can you recall who the commander of this group of police officers

7 was standing there at attention?

8 A. I do not recall. And I don't know --

9 Q. If you take a look at the middle of paragraph 17 that is in front

10 of you, Inspector, several years ago you told an investigator of the

11 Office of the Prosecutor: "Being asked who the commander of this unit was,

12 I say the commander of the police officers was Zoran Jovanovski, Bucuk.

13 Jovanovski came to the minister to the stone table and they both spoke

14 about the situation in the village."

15 The next sentence is confusing. It was a typed conversation

16 between the minister and Jovanovski. "I was at the moment at some two

17 metres from the minister away. I could understand from the conversation

18 that they were talking about the situation in the village and that it was

19 not completely under control. According to the conversation, I understood

20 that or understand that Jovanovski told the minister that there was

21 shooting coming from nearly all houses in Ljuboten."

22 Does this help refresh your memory about what you saw and heard in

23 that courtyard on the 12th of August, Inspector?

24 A. Last time and now I tell you again, while I was giving the

25 statement, at that time also to the investigator I said that I do not

1 recall to the best of my ability who the minister met with there. But now

2 if I were to think about it, if I were to think through it, I recall that

3 at the stone table the one person he met was the head. I don't recall his

4 name, first name or last name, and he spoke with him.

5 Q. Inspector, do you recall seeing a second group of men -- actually,

6 I'd like you, before we go on, can you turn, please and perhaps the usher

7 can help us, to page 10 of your statement in the Macedonian version, 10th

8 page. Page 10.

9 Can you turn the page, go to the next page, please. Next page,

10 please. Next page, please. Next page. Next page. Next page. Next

11 page. Should be the second-to-the-last page. It says -- that should it

12 be it right there.

13 You see it, there's a page there, Inspector, it says: "Witness

14 Acknowledgment." Do you see that, Inspector?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It says that: "This statement has been read over to me in the

17 Macedonian language and is true to the best of my knowledge and

18 recollection. I have given this statement voluntarily and I am aware that

19 it may be used in legal proceedings before the International Criminal

20 Tribunal for the Prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations

21 of international law committed in the territory of the Former Yugoslavia

22 since 1991, and that I may be called to give evidence in public before the

23 Tribunal."

24 Do you see your signature there, Inspector?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is it still your testimony today, under oath, that you do not

2 recall the name of the person who Minister Boskoski spoke with at that

3 stone table?

4 A. In this Court, I gave my solemn oath that I will speak the truth

5 and nothing but the truth. The truth is what I'm telling you now, and

6 then in front of the investigator I said that I did not recall. However,

7 since I was held for over eight hours and I was very tired, and he wanted

8 to hear from me that this name should be Zoran Jovanovski and Johan

9 Tarculovski there and this is what I said, this is why.

10 Secondly, it was because at that moment, another party was in

11 power, another government was in power, which could dismiss me from work,

12 could fire me from work and so forth.

13 Q. Inspector, is it your testimony here today that the OTP

14 investigator who interviewed you forced you to give these details about

15 Zoran Jovanovski and Johan Tarculovski? Is that your testimony?

16 A. No, they did not force me. But --

17 Q. But what?

18 A. The truth, which I'm saying now, is the truth now. And this is

19 that Minister Boskoski saw only with the head at that stone table.

20 Q. Inspector, do you recall seeing a second group of police officers

21 arrive in that courtyard on the 12th of August?

22 A. Perhaps I saw. I cannot recall at this moment. I cannot recall

23 now.

24 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, can you assist us, please.

25 Q. Inspector, I'd like to ask you to try to refresh your memory by

1 looking at paragraph 20 of your statement. Take a look at paragraph 20

2 and about the third sentence it says: "At this time I didn't see Johan

3 Tarculovski in the yard, he came later. I have not seen with my own eyes

4 Johan Tarculovski coming together with a wounded person. I saw only Johan

5 Tarculovski, he was wearing a police uniform. The wounded person was

6 Sasko or Saso or Aleksandar, last name Janevski. Being asked if I know

7 this person, I say I don't know him but heard Johan Tarculovski telling

8 this to Zoran Jovanovski. This conversation happened around three hours

9 after arrival. All together we were around three hours in the yard, and I

10 monitored this from a distance of around five metres. I don't know what

11 happened to the person and whereabouts of the wounded person, but I think

12 they took him to the hospital. I think he was wounded in the leg, but as

13 I said before, I never saw the person. Johan came with a group of around

14 15 people in uniform. They were wearing camouflage uniforms. They were

15 sitting down together with the people in the yard."

16 Inspector, does that help refresh your memory about seeing a

17 second group of police officers in that courtyard that day?

18 A. At the onset I said that Johan Tarculovski, I do not know him

19 personally. Even if I were to see him now, I would not recognise him.

20 Then and now, I could not recognise him that he was coming with that

21 second group. Therefore, I cannot say that Johan Tarculovski came there.

22 Yes, a group came, but whether Johan was there or not, I cannot say with

23 certainty.

24 Q. Inspector, about an hour ago, perhaps a bit longer, you told this

25 Trial Chamber, again under oath, that you knew Johan Tarculovski in 2001.

1 You knew him as a member of the ministry's security and protection. Is it

2 really your testimony now before this Court, under oath, that you did not

3 know him? Is that really what you're telling this Chamber, under oath?

4 A. This is how it is, sir. I'm speaking under oath and this is the

5 truth. Personally, I said I do not know him. It's different to know

6 someone or to have heard about someone. This can be interpreted in two

7 different ways. That is to say, I had heard of Johan Tarculovski, that he

8 worked in the Ministry of Interior. This means that I do not exactly know

9 what he looks like. So, therefore, I cannot say whether he came or not.

10 This would be guessing at this moment, if I were to say that I truly saw

11 him.

12 MR. SAXON: For the record, Your Honour, the passage of testimony

13 that I referred to earlier is at page 19, lines 11 to 13 of the LiveNote.

14 Q. Can you recall that some weapons were brought to that courtyard.

15 Can you recall that, in Ljubanci?

16 A. I do not recall.

17 Q. Can you take a look at paragraph 21, please, of your statement.

18 Paragraph 2 reads: "I don't know the origin of these weapons. I think

19 they were brought by Johan Tarculovski's group. A second group of Johan

20 was still in the village when we left. Being asked why I'm saying that

21 the weapons were brought by Johan's group, I can say that I only know that

22 his group was in Ljuboten. I think that at the moment when Johan spoke

23 with Zoran, Bucuk, also the weapons, the ID cards and the other things

24 visible on the video were brought in front of the house, but I haven't

25 seen this."

1 Does this refresh your memory, Inspector, as to who brought the

2 weapons to that courtyard?

3 A. In my statement, Your Honour, I say, I can see having said here

4 that I have not seen this with my own eyes. For this whole time I am

5 claiming that I have not seen any of this, that I do not know and that I

6 do not recall. Therefore, I cannot say also about the weapons, I cannot

7 say that I have seen it with my own eyes.

8 Q. If you take a look at the next paragraph of your statement,

9 Inspector, you told an OTP investigator several years ago in a signed

10 statement: "I know Johan Tarculovski since around five years. Johan was

11 body-guard of Boris Trajkovski and after this, he was the body-guard of

12 the wife of Trajkovski." Then you said: "I met Johan during my work in

13 the police."

14 Inspector, you are testifying under oath today. I ask you again:

15 Did you see Johan Tarculovski in that courtyard on the 12th of August,

16 2001?

17 A. Sir, I shall repeat once again. I know that I'm testifying under

18 oath and thank you for reminding me of this. And, once again, I will

19 repeat that I do not recall Johan Tarculovski in the second group that

20 came.

21 Q. Can you recall whether there was anyone from the Kometa security

22 company present in the courtyard on that day?

23 A. As you know, I work in the Ministry of Interior, not in Kometa.

24 Therefore, I do not know the people who work there, and I could not say

25 and point out ...

1 Q. Inspector, to help you refresh your memory, could you please take

2 a look at paragraphs 23 and 24 of your statement. Paragraph 23 says:

3 "Zoran Jovanovski, I know for a longer time than Johan, I think more ten

4 years."

5 Paragraph 24 says: "Being asked who else I know from the Kometa

6 which were present in Ljuboten, I can name Bucuk Jovanovski, Johan

7 Tarculovski, Sasa, the one who was wounded, the brother of the wounded,

8 Vlatko Janevski, former deputy chief of the Kometa. These ones I can

9 identify. The people I named are the most important ones. These people

10 were in a responsible position. Vlatko and Johan were not in the garden.

11 All these people were wearing police uniforms on this day."

12 Does that help refresh your memory?

13 A. Again, I will say that I do not know anyone from the Kometa agency

14 personally. I know them from pictures, from hearsay. Therefore, I cannot

15 say anything on this matter and on this question.

16 Q. Inspector, I'd like to show you a video. Can we please show what

17 has been marked for identification as Exhibit P363.

18 And if you could pay attention, Inspector, please. Pay attention

19 to the commentary, Inspector, that is being given here.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. SAXON: This is video footage taken from the house in Ljubanci

22 looking towards Ljuboten on the 12th of August, 2001, received from

23 Macedonian television.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. SAXON: Stop. Stop. Can we go back a little bit, please.

1 Well, let's go forward for a second.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. SAXON: Stop. Can we stop there.

4 Q. Inspector, is that you that we see here?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. SAXON: Can we keep going, please. This is at 13:45 on the

7 clip.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. SAXON:

10 Q. Inspector, you listened to the voice of the journalist on that

11 broadcast, right, did you hear what she said?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was there anything that the journalist said that you disagree

14 with?

15 JUDGE PARKER: We'll let the witness answer the question first,

16 Ms. Residovic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you please repeat the

18 question. I do not understand it.

19 MR. SAXON:

20 Q. Was there anything that the journalist said that was

21 incorrect?

22 A. Well, I'm not the one who should assess the veracity of this.

23 Q. Well, can you tell us whether you heard anything said that was

24 wrong or incorrect?

25 A. I have no comment with regards to this question. I don't know.

1 I don't understand your question.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Ms. Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but you

4 had already decided about this video because on the list of the

5 Prosecution's witnesses, there is actually the one witness who made this

6 clip, and that witness should be questioned about the content of that

7 story. In my opinion, it would be correct to ask this witness only about

8 individual occurrences whether he had witnessed those, rather than

9 commenting story of a journalist. But the witness has already answered,

10 so I have no further remarks.

11 MR. SAXON: May I make one further remark, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: If you need to, Mr. Saxon.

13 MR. SAXON: Then I will move on, if I'm trying the patience of the

14 Chamber.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

16 MR. SAXON:

17 Q. Inspector, the journalist who you heard speaking there is a woman

18 named Eli Cakar; do you know who she is?

19 A. I don't know her.

20 Q. Do you remember a television journalist accompanying

21 Minister Boskoski to Ljubanci that day?

22 A. Sir, I can only state that I was interested in the minister and

23 not the journalist.

24 Q. All right. A moment ago you mentioned that when you gave your

25 statement to the OTP several years ago, another political party was in

1 power and that you said certain things to avoid being fired. Do you

2 remember when you told us that a few moments ago?

3 A. Yes, I recall.

4 Q. Do you have any concerns about your professional position now,

5 given that a different political party is in power?

6 A. Do I have to answer this question?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Does the fact that the VMRO party is now in power influence the

10 way you have testified today?

11 A. No, not in the least.

12 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions at this time.

13 I would like to inform the Chamber that I erred at transcript page 26,

14 line 17, where I mentioned 65 ter number 188. I should have said 65 ter

15 number 118, and I'm grateful to my colleagues for catching my mistake, as

16 they usually do.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

18 Ms. Residovic.

19 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jakovoski. I am Edina Residovic, and with my

22 colleague Guenael Mettraux, I defend Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

23 Before I ask you some questions, Mr. Jakovoski, I would like to

24 ask you once more to wait a little when I ask a question, wait for the

25 question to be interpreted into Macedonian and English, so that the

1 Chamber and my colleagues in this courtroom be able to follow what I ask

2 and what you answer. Have you understood me?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Before you were employed by the Ministry of Interior in 1990, you

5 graduated from a gymnasija secondary school in Skopje. Is that so?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After that you enrolled at the faculty of physical culture where

8 you did not graduate from the faculty as a whole but only the first

9 two -- you only finished the first two years. Is that so?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. After two years of attending the faculty, you went to serve in the

12 Yugoslav People's Army. You were a conscript in the -- to serve your

13 mandatory military service. Is that so?

14 A. It is correct.

15 Q. After your military service, you were unemployed for five years

16 practically. You had no job at all. Is that so?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. And it was completely clear to you that it was very difficult to

19 find employment, because many young people at the time were unemployed.

20 Is that so?

21 A. It is so.

22 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that even now in the Republic of

23 Macedonia many people are unemployed and that jobs are difficult to find;

24 is that correct?

25 A. It is correct.

1 Q. Answering the questions of my learned friend the Prosecutor, you

2 said that you worked in the police in 1990 as a uniformed police officer.

3 Do you remember that?

4 A. That is correct, uniformed police officer.

5 Q. And as a uniformed police officer, you first worked at Karpos

6 police station for two years and then from 1993 to 1997 you worked at

7 Bit Pazar police station. Is that correct?

8 A. It is correct.

9 Q. Both these police stations are in the city of Skopje and belong to

10 the sector of security of the city of Skopje. Is that so?

11 A. It is correct.

12 Q. While working as a police officer in uniform, you did your duty in

13 accordance with the law, law about the police; is that correct?

14 A. It is correct.

15 Q. Apart from your duties as laid down by the law, you and other

16 police officers also acted upon the orders of your superiors at the time.

17 Is that so?

18 A. Yes, that is so.

19 Q. While you were working at the Karpos and Bit Pazar police

20 stations, your immediate superior was the police station commander; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. So that as a police officer you immediately executed orders

24 received from the commander of the police station, or by a person

25 authorised by him; that is, a deputy or somebody else from the police

1 station. Is that correct?

2 A. It is correct.

3 Q. And the commander of the police station was the person responsible

4 for the situation in that police station. Is that so?

5 A. It is so.

6 Q. If a uniformed police officer from that station or a third person

7 who would come there would -- would do something wrong, something against

8 the law, or go beyond their authority, overstep their authority, then the

9 person in charge would establish all relevant facts and launch

10 disciplinary proceedings against that police officer. Is that so?

11 A. It is so.

12 Q. While you were working as a uniformed police officer, you

13 personally never received orders from persons at the Ministry of Interior;

14 is that correct?

15 A. It is correct.

16 Q. Especially while you were working as a uniformed police

17 officer, you never received orders from the then-minister of the interior

18 of the Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

19 A. It is correct.

20 Q. If I were to say that you never submitted reports to the

21 minister -- Ministry of Interior or the then-minister, that would also be

22 correct. You personally never submitted such reports, did you?

23 A. Yes, that is correct, I never did.

24 Q. Answering the question of my learned friend the Prosecutor, you

25 also said that for a while you were a member of a Posebna police unit.

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. While you were a member of that police unit your battalion

3 commander was Ljupco Bliznakovski; is that right?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. Ljupco Bliznakovski, to your best knowledge, as a member of his

6 battalion, was a police officer with a great deal of experience and is

7 considered a good professional. Is that -- are you familiar with that?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the

9 answer closer to the microphone and louder.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Is it correct that Ljupco Bliznakovski was considered a good

12 professional, a police officer with a great deal of experience at that

13 time. Is that correct?

14 A. It is correct.

15 Q. Is it correct that for this reason he was subsequently appointed

16 deputy assistant minister of the interior for the city of Skopje, and in

17 2001, he was responsible for the uniformed police in the sector of

18 internal affairs for the city of Skopje. Are you familiar with this fact?

19 A. Yes. I recall -- I don't recall the exact period of time when

20 that was, but you could remind me.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. Likewise, answering the questions asked by

22 my learned friend, you said that later on, you were transferred from the

23 Posebna unit to a police station, and then at some time you were part of

24 the security of -- for the minister of the interior; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And if I remember well, you also said that this had happened

2 around about May 2001. Is that so?

3 A. It is so.

4 Q. Actually, that was a time when Mr. Boskoski was appointed minister

5 of the interior. Is that about that time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct that -- that you were actually selected from among

8 five candidates who wanted to be members of the ministry security?

9 A. It is correct.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask again the witness to please

11 speak up.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. The interpreters are asking to move -- asking you to move closer

14 to the microphone so that they may hear you better, and that was also my

15 request to you, and please answer the questions more clearly so we may

16 understand you better.

17 When you became a member of the security of the minister of the

18 interior in 2001, there was already a crisis situation in the Republic of

19 Macedonia due to terrorist attacks committed by Albanian terrorists and

20 extremists; is that correct?

21 A. It is correct.

22 Q. And can you agree with me, as you had been a police officer

23 before, that those were very difficult times to do police work?

24 A. It is correct.

25 Q. Actually, the police, in addition to their routine, work and tasks

1 as laid down by the law was also required to engage in some combat

2 activity; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. That period was especially difficult for the police, as it was

5 police stations and police patrols that were frequently the targets of

6 terrorist attacks; is that correct?

7 A. It is correct.

8 Q. But the terrorists also attacked civilian population and army

9 positions, as well as journalists. Do you remember that the attacks were

10 targeted against those also?

11 A. Yes, I remember that.

12 Q. And as a person who was near the minister - I'm not saying

13 close - but you were near him as his body-guard, you were certainly in a

14 position to know and see in the field that police frequently participated

15 in joint activities with the army of the Republic of Macedonia; is that

16 correct?

17 A. That is correct, yes.

18 Q. It could also be known to you, and now I'm asking whether that is

19 really so, that at that time a significant number of police officers were

20 wounded or killed in terrorist attacks.

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. This situation provoked revolt on the population so that

23 demonstrations were occurring, which resulted in additional obligations

24 for the police. Have there been such demonstrations of which you know?

25 A. Yes. There were such events, yes.

1 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a part of the book written by Minister

2 Boskoski, My Struggle -- or My Fight for Macedonia, and you said that you

3 did not personally witness large-scale demonstrations in the month of June

4 in the city of Skopje; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. But let me ask you whether it is correct that on numerous

7 occasions when there were protests by the population, the police took

8 measures, to protect those parts of the city where ethnic Albanians lived;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Actually, I would like to put the following to you, and please say

12 if I'm right in saying that the -- the police in Macedonia, on the whole,

13 strove to protect all citizens irrespective of their ethnic affiliation,

14 be they -- whether they were ethnic Macedonians, Albanians, Turks,

15 Bosniaks or others?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. And as a man who was near Minister Boskoski, were you able to see

18 that Minister Boskoski took equal care for all citizens of Macedonia and

19 that he did not discriminate among them in any way?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. My learned friend the Prosecutor showed you an extract from the

22 book written by Mr. Boskoski, and he read out the section which says that

23 during the crisis, Mr. Boskoski practically worked round the clock. But

24 in that same section, I'm now going to read this out to you:

25 [In English] "These were the days in which I was working until the

1 last atom in my body. My alertness and engagement could not be measured

2 by 24 or 48 hours, but by series of nights and days without sleep. Yet,

3 with an unbreakable desire in the fight for Macedonia mainly, owing to my

4 young age, stamina and my unshakeable Macedonian patriotism in which there

5 is room for every human being for all the citizens of whatever ethnic or

6 religious group if they sincerely and truly loved Macedonia."

7 [Interpretation] Tell me, please, to the best of your

8 understanding and in accordance with what you heard from Mr. Boskoski, was

9 this not his basic message to all of you, that you should take care for

10 every human being and all citizens irrespective of their ethnic or

11 religious affiliations. So all those who loved their country, Macedonia.

12 Were you able to notice that this was the attitude held by Mr. Boskoski

13 toward all citizens of the Republic of Macedonia?

14 A. It is correct.

15 Q. The Prosecutor also showed you a section of the book written by

16 Mr. Boskoski which displays his emotional attitude toward the events.

17 This is not a documentary book but he pointed out a fact mentioned in that

18 book that Mr. Boskoski allegedly left the coordinating body and in his

19 stead, Mr. Refet Elmazi was appointed to that position. You said that

20 you didn't know whether Mr. Boskoski had left that coordinating body or

21 not and I'm not going to ask you about that because you have already

22 testified to that.

23 But let me ask you: Did you know, in 2001, that Refet Elmazi was

24 Mr. Boskoski's deputy, so that he was actually the deputy minister of the

25 interior. Is that correct?

1 A. It is correct.

2 Q. And did you know that Mr. Refet Elmazi was an ethnic Albanian;

3 correct?

4 A. It is correct.

5 Q. And you're also aware that for the entire duration of the crisis

6 and that for the entire duration of the term of office Mr. Boskoski,

7 Refet Elmazi was and remained deputy to the minister of the interior; is

8 that correct?

9 A. It is correct.

10 Q. And you can surely testify that the Minister Boskoski and his

11 deputy Refet Elmazi were then and later in a good relation, one could say,

12 a friendly, cordial relation. Is that correct?

13 A. It is correct.

14 Q. And with regards to this question, I would like to ask you the

15 following. Are you aware, actually, that Mr. Boskoski was born in the

16 village of Celopek, where Macedonians and Albanians used to live together

17 and they still live together there?

18 A. Yes. I have been there on many occasions and I can give you an

19 example. In the middle of the war when passing through the village when

20 the situation was worse, the minister greeted a senior citizen, an

21 Albanian, and a picture of that was taken for the newspapers.

22 Q. So when Mr. Boskoski would go to the field, and my learned friend

23 asked you about it, he would greet absolutely in the same way both the

24 police officers, the Macedonian citizens and the citizens who were

25 Albanians. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes, especially in the village of Celopek.

2 Q. Let me also ask you whether you remember that at the time

3 Mr. Boskoski was known to go to an ethnic Albanian village himself to

4 speak to the population there, although others held the opinion that he

5 shouldn't be doing that?

6 A. Yes. Several times, to several places.

7 Q. When my learned friend asked you about Mr. Boskoski's

8 frequent -- frequent travels to the field, you said that he met all sorts

9 of people there. Is that so?

10 A. It is so.

11 Q. And if I were to say to you, sir, that when Mr. Boskoski would go

12 to the field where joint operations are -- were carried out by the army

13 and the police, do you agree that he went there only to provide moral

14 support to his police officers?

15 A. It is correct.

16 Q. Let me put it like this: As his body-guard, when you were also in

17 the field, you never heard him giving orders either to police chiefs or

18 regular police officers. Is that correct?

19 A. It is correct.

20 Q. And can I then say in conclusion that Minister Boskoski respected

21 all those who were really in charge of operations on the ground and gave

22 orders, et cetera, and that he never interfered with their work?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Let me also ask you about something that my learned friend the

25 Prosecutor was also interested in, namely, whether you personally liked or

1 disliked Minister Boskoski. Eventually, you said you admired him; is that

2 right?

3 A. As my superior and as a person, yes.

4 Q. And explaining the reasons, you said that he was actually a good

5 person. Is that so?

6 A. It is so.

7 Q. And if I were to say that many people considered Mr. Boskoski a

8 good person would also be correct, isn't it -- wouldn't it?

9 A. Yes, it would be correct.

10 Q. And you could say that for a -- for a man and a minister he was a

11 very emotional person; isn't that correct?

12 A. It is correct.

13 Q. And whenever he would receive information that a police officer

14 had been wounded or killed, that he would take it very personally; isn't

15 that right?

16 A. It is correct.

17 Q. But isn't it also correct that he would always repeat that the

18 police shouldn't react in the same manner and that he was totally free

19 from any revengism [as interpreted]?

20 A. It is correct.

21 Q. That attitude toward wounded or killed police officers was also

22 reflected in -- in allowing the family members of the -- these killed

23 police officers to use his weekend cottage in Croatia; isn't that right?

24 A. Yes. While I was there, two or three families were there,

25 families consisting of several members.

1 Q. And you were in Celopek with the minister, so that was his native

2 village, when his relatives had been killed by terrorists, and when he was

3 saying to the population -- to the villagers that those killings had been

4 committed by terrorists and that was hard on the ethnic Albanians too,

5 because sometimes the terrorist would say use force against Albanians too.

6 Do you remember that occasion, when the minister went to Celopek?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And -- excuse me, what was your answer to my question? I asked

9 you whether you remembered the occasion when you went to Celopek with the

10 minister and you answered? Do you remember?

11 A. Yes, I remember.

12 Q. Thank you. In the transcript there was a negative answer.

13 My learned friend also showed a section of the book to you, a

14 section which says that for the fourth time an assassination of

15 Minister Boskoski had been attempted. Do you remember?

16 A. Yes, I remember.

17 Q. Can you confirm that when you confirmed that you were in -- in

18 Matejce, when you visited the regular police station in Matejce, and you

19 thought that there was no danger there.

20 A. Yes, it is so. It is correct.

21 Q. But you body-guards always required the minister when he was going

22 near places where there was gun-fire to wear protective equipment and

23 protect himself. Is that so?

24 A. Yes, it is correct.

25 Q. Your basic duty was to protect the minister's life, isn't

1 it -- wasn't it?

2 A. Yes, it is correct.

3 Q. Although at the time you had information from the army of

4 Macedonia that Matejce was a safe environment and that you could visit the

5 police station there, you were actually attacked fiercely by terrorist

6 groups; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. For the sake of the transcript, this video is -- is Exhibit P401.

9 Due to the wish of the minister to provide moral support to his

10 police officers when they were going to the field, you had problems not

11 only in Matejce but also at other places with guaranteeing his safety;

12 isn't that right?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. And answering to the Prosecutor's question, you said that you

15 executed orders received from Zoran Trajkovski, the head of the minister's

16 security. Is that so?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. But if the minister would require you to do something, you would

19 try to do so, wouldn't you?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. But that isn't only your position as a body-guard. Other

22 body-guards, those of the president of the republic or the Speaker of

23 parliament or other ministers also had to follow orders given to them by

24 their chief of security, but also the personality who they protected.

25 Isn't that right?

1 A. Yes, it is correct.

2 Q. So if it the Speaker of parliament would say to his body-guard to

3 accompany him to a certain place or do something, that body-guard would

4 have to do so, isn't it?

5 A. Yes, it is correct.

6 Q. When the Prosecutor asked you about Johan Tarculovski, you said

7 that he was your colleague because he also worked for the Ministry of the

8 Interior. Is that right?

9 A. Yes, it is correct.

10 Q. And you will also agree that the body-guards of all cabinet

11 ministers and the president were officers of the Ministry of Interior; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. If I were to put to you that they were only technically officers

15 of the Ministry of Interior, de jure, but that in reality they executed

16 orders of the persons they protected or their chiefs, or superiors that

17 would also be correct, wouldn't it?

18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I think, with respect to this witness, it

20 might be appropriate to ask the witness whether he understands what the

21 term "de jure" means, before he is able to answer this question.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did translate

23 that. I said in reality de jure, in reality. So the witness can -- I

24 believe the witness can understand what I meant.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It is a very technical term, and you would want us

1 to understand it, I think, in a technical sense. So I would suggest you

2 need to be much more careful with the question if you want us to be taking

3 notice of the answer.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you..

5 Q. I'm going to ask you again. I'll phrase it differently.

6 In life, in reality, did you as a body-guard and your

7 colleagues who protected other important personalities in the Republic of

8 Macedonia were you employed by the Ministry of Interior?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it also true that in reality, on a daily basis, you executed

11 orders given to you by your immediate superior and the person you

12 protected; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is correct.

14 Q. So you could say that you were, in fact, officers of the Ministry

15 of Interior, but that your real superiors, your real bosses were the

16 persons that you protected; is that correct?

17 A. It is correct.

18 Q. Thank you. With regard to the questions asked to you by my

19 learned friend, the questions about your -- the statement that you had

20 given to the investigators of this Tribunal, I would like to ask you some

21 questions also.

22 As far as I remember, you answered my learned friend that you were

23 questioned very long by the investigators of this Tribunal. Could you say

24 for how many hours you testified, giving the statement that was

25 submitted -- that was shown to you today?

1 A. For more than 12 hours.

2 Q. Do you remember which year it was when you gave that statement?

3 A. 2003 or 4. I don't recall precisely. 2003, I think it was.

4 Q. Your statement was shown to you. If that statement is dated April

5 the 20th, 2001, then that would certainly be a mistake. It would have to

6 be 2003 or 4.

7 A. 2003, yes, it's like that.

8 MR. SAXON: May I assist? If it would be of assistance, on the

9 interpreter's certification page, it is dated 20 April 2004.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. The Prosecutor has also shown the last page to you with

12 the -- with the interpreter's certification and do you remember the 10th

13 page of the Macedonian version?

14 A. Yes, I remember that.

15 Q. I apologise. Actually, I was referring to the witness

16 acknowledgment, not the interpreter's certification.

17 Do you remember the Prosecutor showing you that?

18 A. I remember, yes.

19 Q. Today this interpreter certification was also shown to you and it

20 is in Macedonian, isn't it?

21 A. Yes, it is so.

22 Q. There is again a mistake in the translation of what I'm asking.

23 It is not the interpreter's certificate, but the witness acknowledgment.

24 When giving your testimony to the investigator of the ICTY, is it

25 correct that you were asked questions in the English language, that you

1 would reply in Macedonian, and that there was interpreting through

2 interpreters; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is correct.

4 Q. And at the end of that entire interview, you actually signed the

5 statement in the English language; is that correct?

6 A. It is correct.

7 Q. And you yourself do not speak the English language; is that

8 correct?

9 A. It is correct.

10 Q. And, actually, this witness acknowledgment was signed by you in

11 the English language and not in the Macedonian language; is that correct?

12 A. It is correct.

13 MR. SAXON: May I --

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

15 MR. SAXON: Just a point of clarification, in the transcript it

16 reads that my colleague has asked the witness whether he signed in the

17 English language. I'm just trying to understand. We see a signature here

18 but I'm not sure, and it may be because my linguistic knowledge is not

19 great, but does my learned colleague actually refer to the alphabet that

20 is signed or is she actually referring to a language because in the mind

21 of the Prosecution a signature -- a name is a name.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I understood the counsel to be referring to the

23 version of the statement, whether it was the English language version or

24 the Macedonian language version, which was signed.

25 MR. SAXON: I'm grateful.

1 JUDGE PARKER: And is that a convenient time?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you very

3 much.

4 JUDGE PARKER: We'll resume at ten minutes past 6.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

9 Q. So, sir, Mr. Jakovoski, your statement that you have signed in

10 2004, at the moment of your signing was in the English language; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, this is correct.

13 Q. And before your arrival to The Hague, you haven't seen that

14 statement in the Macedonian language; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, this is correct. I'm seeing it for the first time now.

16 Q. And that statement shown to you today, the statement that you have

17 read now in the Macedonian language, was never signed by you; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, this is correct.

20 Q. Several times, when my learned friend the Prosecutor showed you

21 some parts of your previous statement, you stated: "I had told you

22 earlier that I do not recall some of the events and that they're not as I

23 spoke about them," if I understood that well. I'm only trying to reframe

24 part of your statement. Have I understood you well?

25 A. Yes, this is correct.

1 Q. Could you please tell me apart from this event in April of 2004

2 when you made your statement to the ICTY investigator, did you have any

3 interviews with the investigator of the Prosecutor afterwards, because

4 this is what I gather from your statement?

5 A. Yes, this was on a number of occasions on his initiative, not on

6 mine.

7 Q. And could you please tell me, did you speak on the phone or would

8 you meet with the investigator?

9 A. On -- by telephone at least five, six times, my private phone.

10 Otherwise, on his initiative, once in Skopje in the Holiday Inn hotel.

11 This was, for me, a psychological problem.

12 Q. Excuse me, did you then speak only about some technical aspects of

13 your travel, or did you discuss the case, the actual contents of your

14 testimony?

15 A. In -- in most of the situations by telephone and in the hotel

16 where we met, most was about the subject matter.

17 Q. And when you stated that you would say to the -- you have said to

18 the Prosecutor earlier that what you had stated in your testimony is not

19 completely accurate or that you do not remember some situations, did you

20 also say this to the investigator when you spoke with him on the phone or

21 when you met him in Holiday Inn hotel?

22 A. I told him the same when we spoke on the phone and in the hotel

23 when we met, that I do not recall and that the statement is not accurate.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the sake of the

25 transcript, I wish to note that the Defence has received, until the

1 present day, only the statement of this witness of 28th of April, 2004 and

2 it was never informed that the Prosecution had any other interviews on any

3 other occasions with this witness.

4 Q. Considering that when asked by my learned friend you stated that

5 you had said previously that there were issues you did not remember, is it

6 then true, Mr. Jakovoski, that upon giving your statement in 2004, you

7 stated to the investigator several times that you could not remember

8 precisely the events and that it is difficult for to you describe the

9 situation that took place then at that time?

10 A. Yes, this is correct, and the statements says, writes that I do

11 not recall ...

12 Q. In the statement shown to you today, and I will ask that the

13 witness is shown the first page, 65 ter 1D498, that is 1D4523 in the

14 English, while the Macedonian is -- I apologise. 1D4536, and I would like

15 to ask if the witness could be provided with a copy that the Prosecutor

16 just gave me a while ago, so I would like to ask the usher to give this

17 statement to the witness in the Macedonian language.

18 Tell me, the investigator who interviewed you in 2004, as it is

19 stated on the first page, is Kuehnel Thomas. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes, I remember.

21 Q. Could you tell me please, who was the investigator who spoke with

22 you over the phone or with whom you met, as you have just testified, in

23 the hotel in Skopje?

24 A. The same, the investigator Kuehnel Thomas.

25 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask now that the witness is shown page

1 1D4539, Macedonian, item 10, and 1D4540, item 11.

2 Okay, let's see the item 10 first, and the English is 1D4526.

3 Also, again, item 10.

4 In the item 10, can you see in front of you that item 10? You can

5 find the item 10 also in the hard copy that you have in front of you. It

6 states the following: [In English] "On the day before this picture was

7 taken, Saturday."

8 [Interpretation] But I need to say immediately that in the

9 translation into Macedonian there is a mistake, because it says instead of

10 Saturday which should be Sabota, it states Sunday. So here it is stated:

11 [In English] "On the day before this picture was taken, Saturday, I can't

12 remember what we have done. I have problems to answer the question that I

13 have done five days before the events. These days were too busy."

14 [Interpretation] Is this what is written here actually a

15 corroboration of your answer to the Prosecutor's question, that you also

16 stated to the investigator that due to the numerous tasks and duties you

17 could not remember precisely of all the events and actions that took place

18 in the course of those days?

19 A. Yes, this is correct. This is why I have stated this.

20 Q. If you were to look now at item 11, it is in the same page in the

21 English version, while in Macedonian it is in 1D4540, you said again,

22 could you look at this sentences: [In English] "Two days before this

23 picture was taken, Friday, I can't remember what we have done on these

24 days."

25 [Interpretation] Is this also a corroboration that you spoke to

1 the investigator on several occasions that you could not remember all the

2 events?

3 MR. SAXON: Objection.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

5 MR. SAXON: The paragraph that my learned colleague is reading

6 from, and -- which is paragraph 11, the first sentence, my colleague read

7 into the record, "Two days before this picture was taken, Friday, what we

8 have done on this day. Normally, we started at 8.00 a.m. I know I was on

9 work." I --

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [In English] I don't remember --

11 MR. SAXON: I've now lost the LiveNote, I'm sorry. My point is

12 simply this. In the witness's statement he refers to: "I do not remember

13 any event on this day," singular. He did not say "on these days." And at

14 least that is how it came out in the English transcript.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Maybe I misread the

16 English word and this is why it was entered like that in the transcript.

17 It is it true, it says: [In English] "I can't remember what we have done

18 on this day. Normally we started at 8.00. I know I was on work. I don't

19 remember any events on this day".

20 [Interpretation] Of course, in the item before the witness has

21 already confirmed he could not remember what happened five days ago and

22 not only on that actual date.

23 Q. So my question is very simple. Is it true, as you have testified

24 today, answering the questions of my learned friend, that you said to the

25 investigator in 2004 and also later, and you said often repeated that you

1 could not remember precisely the events or what you were actually doing at

2 a given time. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, this is correct. Yes.

4 Q. You also stated that you were under certain pressure by the events

5 that were taking place at that time in Macedonia because there was a

6 change of power, of government. I would like to ask you whether it is

7 correct that actually during that time many police officers were laid off?

8 A. Yes, this is true.

9 Q. And it is correct that they were either dismissed or demoted to

10 much junior ranks, people who were, in a way, close to the

11 Minister Boskoski?

12 A. Yes, this is correct.

13 Q. And that that was also a pressure on you because you were a police

14 officer and you did not have any other occupation that you could do, other

15 than being a police officer; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, this is true.

17 Q. The Prosecutor asked you whether today, because of the change of

18 power again, your situation is such that you were again modifying your

19 testimony and you stated that it was not like that in the least. Nobody

20 asked you to say anything different from the truth before this Court.

21 Actually, nobody asked you anything; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, this is correct.

23 Q. And what you are testifying today before this Court you are aware,

24 and the Prosecutor cautioned you several times, that you are testifying

25 under oath?

1 A. Yes, correct.

2 Q. Thank you. Although you stated to the investigator of the OTP

3 several times that you could not remember certain events, answering to

4 Prosecutor's question you mentioned, if I understood you well, that the

5 investigator kept repeating the names of Bucuk and Johan. Tell me, were

6 you expected to remember some events or -- despite the fact that you

7 stated that you could not remember?

8 A. Yes, this is correct, and on a number of occasions.

9 Q. Could that be the reason for a certain untrue notions or

10 discrepancies finding a way in your testimony and you then clarified this

11 before the Court today?

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

13 MR. SAXON: I think this question now goes into the realm of

14 speculation, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, do you want me to

17 give a comment or to continue questioning the witness?

18 JUDGE PARKER: To give a comment.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness

20 explained when asked by the Prosecutor, I do not have the actual page of

21 LiveNote where he stated this, that the investigator kept repeating those

22 names to him, and I just asked the witness whether he had the feeling that

23 he is expected, although he said that there was no pressure on him. I can

24 withdraw this question. Maybe this would be the best way.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I will ask you now to look into your statement. It is the page

3 1D498, 1D453, item 5. The last paragraph in the English page is 1D4525,

4 item 5. Could you please look at the last paragraph where the following

5 is stated: "On the date when this video was recorded, I was with

6 Marian Medarov, Branko Pejcinovski and Laste Mitkov. Being asked where

7 Zoran Trajkovski was during these three days, I can say I don't know where

8 he was at the time in general and on Sunday, when the video material was

9 produced."

10 You know Zoran Trajkovski, isn't it so?

11 A. Yes, this is so.

12 Q. He was your direct superior; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, this is correct.

14 Q. And when asked by the Prosecutor, you could not remember where

15 your direct superior had been then; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, correct.

17 Q. If Zoran Trajkovski himself in his statement to the Prosecutor

18 were to say that he been in the Republic of Croatia at that time, you

19 would not dispute this but you simply do not remember that. Is that so?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Do you know Branko Pejcinovski?

22 A. Yes, I know him.

23 Q. Branko Pejcinovski was actually a deputy to Zoran Trajkovski

24 during his absence. Is that so?

25 A. Yes, this is so.

1 Q. I would like to ask now that the witness is shown 65 ter 1D497,

2 page 1D4518, item 11. This is the statement only in the English page, and

3 I will read it to you. In this statement, Branko Pejcinovski says:

4 [In English] "On 10, 11, 12 August 2001, I was always on duty. I was in

5 charge of the team of the body-guard. Zoran Trajkovski was in Croatia at

6 this time."

7 [Interpretation] Do you agree with me that this statement of

8 Branko Pejcinovski was correct, but you simply at the time when you gave

9 the statement, could not recall where your superior was at that moment?

10 Would that be so?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. If we -- if you look, once again, item 10 of your statement, which

13 is on page 1D418, page 1D4539, the 65 ter 1D498, page 4539, where it was

14 stated that there is a mistake in the translation into the Macedonian

15 language instead of Saturday, it is listed as Sunday, and the English

16 version on page 1D4526. You said at that time that you were at the

17 funeral -- that you were attending a funeral that day with the minister.

18 Do you see this? Do you see that you have stated that at that time? Do

19 you see that you have -- that this is written?

20 A. I didn't hear the question. I did not understand your question.

21 Q. In effect, here, in item 10, in the middle of it, when you're

22 speaking about what you were doing on -- in -- on Saturday, first you said

23 that you do not know what you were doing, then for five days, and then you

24 say the following: [In English] "I knew that we were with the minister on

25 the funeral."

1 [Interpretation] That is to say, you said that you were attending

2 a funeral with the minister. Do you see that this is written here?

3 A. Yes, I see it.

4 Q. If I were to put it to you that in front of this Chamber, the

5 witness Risto Galevski said that on Saturday, the 11th of August, he was

6 in Radusa where terrorist groups attacked the police station, and that the

7 Minister Boskoski was in Radusa as well, you could then agree with me that

8 General Galevski had better recollection of this event than you?

9 MR. SAXON: Objection.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Recalling when giving your statement?

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

13 MR. SAXON: Well, it seems to me there's a fault in the logic of

14 this question which can only confuse the witness, because nowhere has it

15 been established that Minister Boskoski could have been attending a

16 funeral on Saturday, August 11th, and travel to the area of Radusa and

17 come back to Skopje. So I think that needs to be clarified.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It is one or other.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, one and the other can be. I

20 agree with you on one day, the minister can be in two places at one time.

21 But in having in mind that I'm questioning the witness on the issue on his

22 recollection, what he really recalls and what he said at the time when he

23 was giving his statement, in this regard, I would ask him not only this

24 question about Radusa but also additional questions which would clarify to

25 the fact whether the witness at the time when giving the statement he

1 recalled these events or not.

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, my learned colleague is asking the

3 witness to comment on the recollection powers of General Galevski. That's

4 what the last question asked.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Could I suggest you find out what this witness says

6 he was doing, if he recalls, whether or not he agrees that he said that

7 the -- your client was at a funeral on the day, and I don't really know

8 you need to take it beyond that, do you?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want -- this is in

10 fact what I want to suggest to the witness, that the minister was not

11 attending any kind of funeral on that day.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Well, put that to the witness and see if he then

13 has an explanation for the statement.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You heard the suggestions of the Court. I want to ask you the

16 following now: Is it correct that you and Minister Boskoski did not

17 attend a funeral in the village of Ljubanci on the 11th of August?

18 A. I can clarify. It must be --

19 JUDGE PARKER: What is your clarification?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Explain.

22 A. I can explain. I have mentioned this funeral because it has

23 nothing to do with the 11th or the days before, but I wanted to say to the

24 investigator that there was too much work on those days and this is why I

25 can't remember. On the 11th, I can agree with the counsel that I went to

1 Radusa on that day with the minister, but then I couldn't remember because

2 the investigation was rather tense.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Saxon.

4 MR. SAXON: Just a comment, Your Honour.

5 My learned colleague's question pointedly asked this witness: Is

6 it correct that you and Minister Boskoski did not attend a funeral in the

7 village of Ljubanci, on the 11th of August, and my concern is simply that

8 nowhere in the witness's statement in that paragraph does he mention where

9 such a funeral took place.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Allow me to continue with my

11 question.

12 Q. Is it correct that on the 11th, on Saturday, you did not attend

13 any kind of funeral?

14 A. On the 11th, we did not go to any kind of funeral. On the 11th,

15 we were in Radusa.

16 Q. And when you spoke about a funeral, as you tried to explain to us

17 now, you remembered that you were at some funeral, and if I say to that

18 you that it was the funeral of a policeman who was killed elsewhere and

19 the funeral was elsewhere and at another time, would that be true?

20 A. Yes, this is correct. Perhaps they did not understand when I was

21 giving the statement. What I wanted to say was that there were too many

22 events going on and this is why I was unable to recall them all.

23 Q. Now allow me to return to the part of the question asked of you by

24 the Prosecutor showing item 12 of your statement to you. It's on page

25 1D4526 of the English version. Let me now find the reference for the

1 Macedonian version. It's 1D4540.

2 As the entire paragraph was read out to you, as far as I remember,

3 you said that part of it was wrong, and you mentioned the way or the road

4 toward Volkovo, a village in the vicinity of Skopje. And you said that

5 now, upon second thought, not everything that you stated under item 2 [as

6 interpreted] was correct. Do you remember that you replied to the

7 Prosecutor in this way?

8 A. Yes, I remember.

9 Q. I will ask you some questions about this. Today as you are

10 testifying under oath, do you remember that on Sunday morning, you drove

11 Minister Boskoski to a barber in Skopje?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Is it true that you were in the barbershop where the minister was

14 also present --

15 A. Yes, correct.

16 Q. -- and Branko Pejcinovski and the driver were in the car; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Is it correct that you remember that at a certain time the driver

20 brought a mobile phone to the minister or told him that

21 President Trajkovski was on the line?

22 A. Yes, this is correct.

23 Q. And in the section that was read out to you, is it correct that

24 the minister, when answering the phone said, President, which to you meant

25 that he was speaking to President Trajkovski?

1 A. Yes, correct.

2 Q. Is it correct that you basically do not know what

3 Minister Boskoski was discussing with President Trajkovski because you

4 weren't listening to the minister's conversation; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, this is correct.

6 Q. And, actually, in the section that was read out to you what is

7 wrong is only the information pertaining to your drive to Ljubanci?

8 A. I said that I did not remember, but one cannot go through Ljubanci

9 through Volkovo. We all know this. I have said this because I had to say

10 something at that time.

11 Q. Thank you. If I were to say to you that after the conversation

12 with the president of Macedonia, Minister Boskoski said that you should go

13 to Ljubanci because something was happening there, would that be in line

14 with the facts -- with the events of that morning; is that so?

15 A. Yes, correct.

16 Q. In your statement you said that after an hour and a half or so,

17 you left for Ljubanci. Is it correct that after the barbershop you went

18 to the Ministry of Interior to prepare for the departure for Ljubanci?

19 A. Yes, it is correct. I now recall that we went back to the

20 ministry.

21 Q. Is it also correct that two vehicles left, and apart from yourself

22 there was also Branko Pejcinovski accompanying the minister for the --

23 Marian Medarov and Laste Mitkov?

24 A. Yes, correct.

25 Q. You replied to my learned friend the Prosecutor that you couldn't

1 comment what that journalist was saying but that you were -- you were

2 taking care of the minister and not of the journalist. Do you remember?

3 A. Yes, I remember that.

4 Q. In fact, the many things that you don't remember have to do with

5 your very duty to take care of the minister's security; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, this is correct.

7 Q. The overall situation due to which you and your colleagues

8 disregard other things is linked with your responsibility for the life of

9 the person protected by you; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, this is correct.

11 Q. In your statement, you said that you didn't know how the TV crew

12 had come to -- had arrived?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. If I were to say to you that Eli Cakar who was mentioned by the

15 Prosecutor and who had stated that she had arrived in the minister's

16 vehicle, you would have no reason to doubt that statement, but that you

17 didn't remember -- you don't remember that; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, this is correct.

19 Q. All your clarifications that you provided replying to the

20 Prosecutor are closely linked with your duty as a body-guard and the great

21 responsibility you had for the life and the security of the minister; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes, this is correct.

24 Q. If you look at item 12 -- I apologise. No, I'm not going to ask

25 this question now in order to save time.

1 As you said that the part of your statement about going to

2 Ljubanci by way of Volkovo and that you couldn't remember that, is it true

3 that while giving the statement to the investigator you couldn't remember

4 that you had stopped in front of a police station and that you were guided

5 by an ethnic Albanian police officer from that station to Ljubanci?

6 A. At that moment, I could not remember.

7 Q. But when the investigator reminded you by asking you whether it

8 was possible that someone had guided you, only then you remembered that

9 there actually was a vehicle driving in front of you until the spot where

10 you stepped out of the vehicle; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, correct.

12 Q. So all these examples I have now mentioned that are parts of your

13 statement given to the investigators in 2004, corroborate, to my

14 understanding, what you wanted to say today to this Chamber; namely, that

15 you cannot remember at all many events and occurrences.

16 A. Yes, this is correct.

17 Q. And that for this reason, you may have said some things that are

18 wrong; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, this is correct.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I would now like

21 to -- as I have some questions that are not directly connected to this, I

22 wonder whether this might not be a good time for us to finish.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will adjourn for the day, resuming

24 tomorrow at 2.15.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of

2 August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

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