1 Wednesday, 22 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
6 We are told there are a number -- or there is at least one matter,
7 there may be more, that counsel wish to raise before we continue.
8 Mr. Saxon.
9 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 I would like to inform the Trial Chamber about a disclosure error
11 involving the witness who is currently testifying which I discovered last
12 evening. You'll recall yesterday during the witness's testimony that the
13 witness mentioned that he had conversations with an OTP investigator in
14 which he told -- including at least one face-to-face meeting, in which he
15 told the investigator that portions of his statement from 2004 to the ICTY
16 were either not correct or not -- not true.
17 Following that testimony, I directed my staff via e-mail yesterday
18 to search for any such information, and the Prosecution team yesterday
19 afternoon located information which confirms what the witness said, at
20 least vis-a-vis a face-to-face meeting that took place in February of this
21 year in Skopje, and that -- this information was recorded on what is
22 called a witness information form, which is usually information that is
23 only shared between the Office of the Prosecutor and the Victims and
24 Witness Unit, which is part of the reason why I did not discover this
25 information earlier. And the information that was recorded by the
1 investigator states that during this conversation with the witness in
2 February of this year to confirm that the witness would be a witness for
3 the Prosecution, the witness told the investigator that much of what was
4 in his 2004 statement was either not true or incorrect and explained some
5 of the reasons for that.
6 When I discovered that we had this information last night which we
7 had not disclosed previously to the Defence, I immediately ran down to the
8 Defence counsel room and gave a copy to Ms. Residovic; and then
9 subsequently, I e-mailed a copy to counsel for Mr. Tarculovski so they
10 have this information, in case they wish to use it during
12 This was my mistake, Your Honour. The investigator who recorded
13 this information attempted to bring it to my attention via e-mail on the
14 2nd of March this year but apparently, I was distracted and it slipped
15 through the cracks. So this was my error and the Prosecution apologises
16 for it.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Saxon. You have informed
18 counsel and we are still in the process of dealing with the witness.
19 Thank you. Is there any matter that needs to be dealt with at
20 this stage, any other matter?
21 Yes, indeed, Mr. Mettraux.
22 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Simply to
23 express our gratitude first to Mr. Saxon for providing the statement in
24 question to us last night. We also sent a further request to Mr. Saxon to
25 conduct a search for any similar material as might have pertained to past
1 or future witnesses.
2 There are two other matters, perhaps, which could be raised at
3 this stage, if the Chamber is minded to do so. The first one relates to
4 the timing of the return of one of the Prosecution witness, Mr. Hutsch.
5 We have had some exchange of e-mail with Mr. Saxon, and I understand that
6 Mr. Saxon has sought to obtain some information in that regard, the
7 Defence would be very keen to obtain clear guidance and information as to
8 the time of the return of Mr. Hutsch. We had understood from Your
9 Honours's statement and instructions before the break that this witness
10 should come during the last two weeks of the month of August and it seems
11 to be, at this stage, quite compromised, if we understand the information
12 we've received from the Prosecution.
13 The next matter which we would like to query at this stage and
14 again if the Chamber is minded to seek information from the Prosecution is
15 the length, or the foreseen length of the remainder of the case and also
16 further witnesses dropped from the Prosecution case. At this stage, we
17 can indicate that the Prosecution kindly informed the Defence yesterday
18 that at least one witness who appears on this list will probably or most
19 likely not be called by the Prosecution.
20 Finally, I will simply indicate that there's a number of issues
21 which we still discuss with the Prosecution, in particular, in relation to
22 further disclosure of material and we hope at this stage to be able to
23 sort it out directly with the Prosecution.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux.
1 Anything further?
2 Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, prior to the summer recess, the
4 Prosecution via the Victim Witness Section, tried to communicate with Mr.
5 Hutsch to obtain his presence here during the last two weeks of this
6 month. The information that the Prosecution received back through VWS was
7 that if Mr. Hutsch came here at the end of this month, he would only be
8 able to do that for two days, because of his other professional
9 commitments. And that he would not commit to the four-day period that he
10 is required to come back for until the 15th of -- excuse me, the
11 information that was received from VWS was that Mr. Hutsch would not
12 commit to the four days that are necessary to complete his testimony until
13 the end of October.
14 When I received that information, I spoke with members of VWS and
15 asked them to please get back in touch with Mr. Hutsch and ask him to
16 commit to the four-day period beginning on the 15th of October, Monday,
17 the 15th, I believe, through Thursday the 18th. VWS has sent e-mails, has
18 left telephone messages. We do not have a response yet from Mr. Hutsch.
19 I did not want to agree to bringing Mr. Hutsch back again only for
20 two days because then I felt we would have the same problem, because the
21 Defence has told us they need three more days for cross-examination and I
22 did not want to create another situation where cross-examination was going
23 to be interrupted.
24 JUDGE PARKER: In short, you don't know at the moment when it
25 would be convenient to have the witness back.
1 MR. SAXON: I cannot confirm at the moment. I'm hoping it will be
2 Monday, the 15th of October, but we are waiting for confirmation.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now --
4 MR. SAXON: With respect to the other matter, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
6 MR. SAXON: The length of the Prosecution's case, I've done some
7 calculations. First of all, it is correct what Mr. Mettraux said, the
8 Prosecution does intend to drop one more witness from its witness list and
9 we will inform the Chamber of that in writing in the near future.
10 With that reduction, if the witness testimony proceeds at the pace
11 that was going prior to the summer recess, according to the estimates that
12 I made in the Prosecution's filing of the 12th of July, there would still
13 be approximately 11 more weeks of Prosecution evidence remaining, which
14 would take us into the first week of November.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Now, in forming that estimate, on what basis have
16 you allowed time for cross-examination, Mr. Saxon?
17 MR. SAXON: I have kept to the conservative estimates that the
18 Prosecution submitted in its revised calculations to the Chamber on the
19 12th of July. In other words, I'm continuing to follow the same
20 estimates, the same extended number of hours permitted for
22 JUDGE PARKER: It was the experience of the Chamber that in the
23 weeks until the break we were not maintaining that rate of progress. Is
24 that something that you have not made any allowance for?
25 MR. SAXON: I did not make allowance for that, Your Honour. I did
2 Having said -- this week, Your Honour, according to the Defence,
3 we will actually be under that estimate. So I decided --
4 JUDGE PARKER: What alarms me in particular was to see an estimate
5 for a witness next week where some nearly 12 hours of cross-examination
6 was being proposed for one relatively routine witness.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, there have been communications between
8 the Prosecution and Defence counsel quite recently where the Prosecution
9 has asked Defence counsel to inform the Prosecution whether Defence
10 counsel believe they will use less time for cross-examination than
11 estimated by the Prosecution, and the only estimate that we have received
12 where the time would be less would be for the current witness.
13 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber would indicate that its concern with
14 the slow rate of progress is reaching the point where contrary to its
15 preference to leave it to counsel to be mindful of the need for
16 considerable economy of time that the point is virtually now reached when
17 it will be necessary for the Chamber to impose time-limits to try and
18 bring the total length of this trial within some reasonable limit.
19 I make that very clear now, because in the next two weeks, if
20 there is not a clear indication from the actual progress made, that the
21 matter of time is under control with each witness, counsel will have to
22 expect that time-limits will be imposed. So we're really allowing just
23 two weeks more, this week and next week, to see whether there can be a
24 considerable discipline imposed about time; and if that cannot be, we will
25 have to take the step of imposing some arbitrary limits, in the interests
1 of trying to ensure that this case finishes within a more reasonable time.
2 I hope that indication is clear enough to counsel, and we will
3 watch progress closely.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think it's a time when we can expect
6 Defence counsel to make any useful observation or submission about the
7 matter of progress, and in view of that, we will just move now to continue
8 the evidence of the witness but ask counsel to take very careful note of
9 what has just been said.
10 Thank you.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Could I remind you that the
14 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still applies and
15 we apologise that you were kept waiting as we dealt with some other
17 Ms. Residovic.
18 WITNESS: BLAGOJA JAKOVOSKI [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jakovoski.
23 A. Good afternoon. Good afternoon.
24 Q. Yesterday, in answering my questions, you said that you, together
25 with Mr. Boskoski, came to Ljubanci and that as you recalled a policeman,
1 an Albanian, led you to the place where you came out of the vehicle. Do
2 you recall talking about this yesterday?
3 A. Yes, I recall that.
4 Q. You then said at 3938 page of the transcript, you said that you
5 remember of a head of a municipality with whom the minister then spoke
6 with. Once again, you met this head on page 3940 of the transcript, and
7 3941, line 19. I would ask you to clarify what you said.
8 You said that this was the head of this municipality where you
9 were at. If I were to try to recall to you that the municipality of this
10 place is the municipality of Cair in the city of Skopje, would this lead
11 you to remember that this was in fact the municipality of Cair?
12 A. Yes. Yes, it was the municipality of Cair. That is where the
13 village is.
14 Q. When you said that the head of this municipality was there, was I
15 correct in understanding that you wanted to say that, in effect, this was
16 the head of the unit of internal affairs of this municipality, that is to
17 say, the police of the municipality of Cair, and not the mayor. Is this
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. Therefore, the person with whom the Minister Boskoski met and with
21 whom he spoke with and who explained to the minister various issues and
22 things was the head of the police of the municipality of Cair; is this
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. In your statement, you did not speak of the name of the head of
1 this municipality.
2 I would ask that the witness be now shown 65 ter 1D497, page
3 1D4519. It is only in the English language, and this is the segment of
4 the statement of Branko Pejcinovski.
5 In this point, it is stated: [In English] When we arrived there,
6 there are a lot of person just when we stepped out, the minister and met
7 the other commander, Ljube Krstevski. I can't say that was the
8 conversation about."
9 [Interpretation] Is this statement of Branko Pejcinovski, can this
10 lead you to remember that this head of the police of the municipality of
11 Cair is, in effect, Ljube Krstevski, the head of OVR Cair?
12 A. Yes, that is correct. I agree that it was Krstevski, the person
13 whom the minister spoke to at that moment.
14 Q. This is, in fact, the person who, for the whole time of your
15 sojourn in and stay in the courtyard in the house where you entered was in
16 the vicinity of the minister and he was the only person whom you
17 remembered explaining anything to the minister. Is this correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. If I were to put to you that it was evident upon leaving and upon
20 your arrival there that the minister did know what was going on and that
21 Ljube Krstevski explained something to me, would this be correct to say?
22 A. I apologise, I did not understand the question.
23 Q. My apology if the question was complex.
24 I want to ask you the following: Is your view of the situation in
25 which you found yourself in was such that you, at that moment, concluded
1 that, in effect, the Minister Boskoski, prior to arriving to this place
2 did not know what was going on there? Is this conclusion that I am
3 making correct?
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: Seems to the Prosecution that the witness is being
6 asked to speculate as to the knowledge of the accused Boskoski at that
7 time. We don't know whether the witness can do that.
8 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreters wish to point that the
9 witness answered that question but we could not give the answer because
10 the Prosecutor spoke at the same time.
11 JUDGE PARKER: The concern of Mr. Saxon, Ms. Residovic, is that
12 you are asking the witness to conjecture. Is there anything you want to
13 say about that?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm asking only
15 about what the experience of the witness was at that time, not what the
16 minister knew at that time. I asked whether the witness could have
17 concluded and the minister did not know what was going on.
18 The witness responded to this. However, if you feel that the
19 question is to be rephrased --
20 JUDGE PARKER: Now we have not recorded it. We have not -- the
21 answer was not able to be identified because it was overtaken, and I'm
22 still struggling with your proposition.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 Q. Sir, can you please tell me when you went towards Ljubanci, did
25 you personally know what was going on there?
1 A. I didn't know.
2 Q. Did the minister perhaps, during the drive, tell you that he knows
3 what's going on there?
4 A. No, he didn't know either.
5 Q. And when you arrived there, when the head Krstevski explained to
6 him, was it evident that this was -- the minister was receiving first
7 information about what was going on there?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Thank you. You personally had not been there prior to that day;
10 is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. And not alone, not with the minister, you had not been there
13 prior, to Ljubanci?
14 A. No, I have never been there before.
15 Q. And to the question of the Prosecution, you said that you did not
16 pay attention to the content of the conversation between the head and the
17 minister because it was customary that your care was to care of the safety
18 of the minister. Is this correct?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. You also stated when you stopped you heard shots in the village.
21 Is this correct?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Yesterday, the Prosecution showed you a video-clip where you
24 recognised yourself and you recognised also the minister. Do you remember
1 A. Yes, that is correct. I remember that.
2 Q. Prior to that, to the question of the Prosecution you confirmed
3 that there you found a large number of people but you said that you were
4 not sure of their number. You said it could have been 20 or hundred and
5 this is noted in the transcript on page 3938 to 3922 to 23 [as
6 interpreted]. Is this what you said? Is this correct?
7 A. I remember having said that.
8 Q. 65 ter 1D498, page 1D4527 in the English version, and 1D4541 --
9 4541 D, item 17 in the Macedonian version.
10 Do you see item 17?
11 [In English] When we arrived, I have seen some army reservists and
12 police reservists. One of them army reservist approached the minister and
13 was crying because his best friend was killed. I don't know the details.
14 I think this reservist was really disturbed, his colleagues took him away.
15 At the arrival, I saw two people in civilian."
16 [Interpretation] Tell me please, is it correct that in addition to
17 the police reservists, you also saw there a number of army reservists?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. And that you saw civilians. Is this also correct?
20 A. Yes. There were many civilians there, yes.
21 Q. However, as you said, about the number, when asked by the
22 Prosecution, you also cannot be sure of their number, the number of army
23 reservists and civilians. Is this correct?
24 A. Yes. I could not say this precisely.
25 Q. I would now ask that you be shown document 1D497, page 1D4519,
1 item 27, 28, and 29. This is the statement of Branko Pejcinovski, again
2 the deputy head of the security of which we talked about yesterday. He as
3 we could see previously, that when you came there were a lot of people
4 there, in item 26 this is said. However, in item 27 he says the
5 following: [In English] I am sure that the minister spoke in front of
6 garden also with villagers and calmed them down not to go in the village
7 of Ljuboten. It was a lot of person. They were in civilian clothes,
8 these men and women [indiscernible]. I think I have seen at this time
9 hundred or more villagers."
10 [Interpretation] My question to you, in view of this statement
11 made by Branko Pejcinovski and your previous statement that you had seen
12 only two civilians, could it be correct that you saw civilians but that
13 you cannot at this point and at this moment say the exact number of
14 civilians was there due to the same reasons that you cannot recall of
15 other events as well?
16 A. Yes, I agree with you. Only I can't give you the exact number of
17 the civilians.
18 Q. Thank you. My learned colleague of the Prosecution showed you a
19 video-clip yesterday, as I already said, where you recognised yourself and
20 the minister. Due to this transcript this is evidence P363 MFI, and if
21 you recall, on that clip you were standing next to a wall. Do you
22 remember this?
23 A. Yes, I remember that.
24 Q. And on that clip, you could see, and I'm asking you whether you
25 recall, that the courtyard of the house was surrounded by a rather high
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. And in that courtyard you could not see any kind of other
4 fortifications or sandbags or anything like that?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. This wall was the only protection. Is this correct?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. And if you recall of the video-clip which you saw yesterday, is it
9 correct that it could -- that on a number of occasion it could be seen
10 that there was shooting, that shooting could be heard and that people were
11 protecting themselves behind the wall? Do you remember seeing this on the
13 A. Yes, I remember since I was there, and this was shooting coming
14 from the village towards the house.
15 Q. And this was the reason why perhaps you and other persons who were
16 there tried to take cover behind the wall, because the shooting was coming
17 from the village towards your position. Is this correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. And generally speaking, in view of the fact that with the minister
20 you sometimes you were present in the battle grounds, is it correct to say
21 that the walls of the houses were often used as protection?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. When the Prosecution showed you the video-clip from the village of
24 Matejce, we could see there the minister and that he had a helmet on his
25 head. Do you recall this?
1 A. Yes, I remember that.
2 Q. And to my question you responded that very often you asked of the
3 minister to put on protective wear when you were close to places where
4 there was shooting going on?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. This time when you were in Ljubanci in this house, the minister
7 was in civil wear?
8 A. Yes, this is correct.
9 Q. He did not have a helmet on his head. Is this correct?
10 A. Yes, that is so.
11 Q. You did not suggest this to you because you did not expect that
12 you would find some kind of battle there. Is this correct?
13 A. Yes, this is correct.
14 Q. And when you heard the shooting, as a body-guard, you were in a
15 greater stress -- state of stress because of the safety of the minister.
16 Could I phrase it in this way?
17 A. Yes, I agree with you.
18 Q. Tell me please, through the wall which we saw as we saw on the
19 video-clip, you looked on towards the village, could you see a lot? Was
20 there a lot to be seen?
21 A. You could not see anything above that wall. We could not see the
22 village. We could not see any battle going on.
23 Q. Tell me, please, when you saw - and this can be seen on the
24 clip - did you see that there were only a few houses from which smoke
25 could be seen?
1 If you do not recall, this is not important. We saw the clip
3 A. I could not remember now.
4 Q. Also, to the question of my learned colleague from the
5 Prosecution, you said that in the courtyard of this house you remained
6 about one and a half hours. This would also be an assessment of the
7 situation -- which you can give of the situation today. Is this correct?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. When you were in the courtyard of that house, you did not at any
10 point of time notice that Ljube Boskoski gave any kind of orders, whether
11 to Ljube Krstevski or to someone else?
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. Mr. Jakovoski, yesterday you stated before this Court that there
14 were many occasions when you spoke to the OTP, actually the investigator
15 of the OTP over the phone, and also you had a meeting with the
16 investigator personally in a hotel in Skopje. On transcript page 3967,
17 lines 9 to 11, you stated that there were at least five or six occasions
18 when you spoke on the phone, and that for you that was some kind of a
19 psychological problem. Do you remember that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. We received the notes of the investigator, and the investigator
22 says that since 2004, until February of 2007, he phoned you 15 times. You
23 can confirm that this could be true, but you do not remember the exact
25 A. I cannot recall, but it could have been 15.
1 Q. When you stated that this posed a certain psychological problem to
2 you, could I infer from this that you felt under pressure regarding your
4 A. Yes, great.
5 Q. I will ask you now to -- to reply to certain personal questions
6 and if you feel that you should not respond, I will not insist that you
8 We spoke about your professional career development and your
9 employment in police stations as a uniformed police officer. Tell me,
10 please, is it correct that before coming to the security department you
11 worked as an inspector in the department for illegal trafficking of drugs?
12 A. Yes, this is correct.
13 Q. Is it also correct that you, after leaving the security of
14 Mr. Boskoski, you again worked in the department for illegal trafficking
15 of drugs as an inspector?
16 A. Yes, this is correct.
17 Q. Is it correct that there is a very difficult job and that you
18 needed to work nights many times?
19 A. Yes, this is correct.
20 Q. Is it correct that in the Ministry of Interior for the sake of
21 security of the inspectors themselves but also for protection to prevent
22 them from abusing their office, there are tests carried out on the
23 inspectors performing these duties in order to prevent any chance that
24 some of the inspectors become drug abusers?
25 A. Yes, this is correct.
1 Q. And very often you had passed those tests. You -- the tests were
2 negative on you, and you never had any problems with drugs in your life;
3 is that correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Also, you never had any problems with alcohol.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. So if anyone were to suggest that you could have had such
8 problems, such suggestion would simply be incorrect. Is that so?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. When you replied to the Prosecutor's question yesterday that you
11 speak the truth today and that the change of power did not have any impact
12 on you, is it correct that everything you said to the Prosecutor from the
13 onset of the interviews was your personal wish to indicate to the
14 Prosecutor that some of the things that you had previously stated were
15 incorrect, that they were even false some of them?
16 A. Yes, this is correct.
17 Q. And that decision of yours, your honesty in stating those facts to
18 the Prosecutor were not caused by any pressure from someone; is that
20 A. Yes, it is correct.
21 Q. This was not related also to the fact that the Albanians were not
22 indicted before this Court. It was simply that you decided to speak the
23 truth and that the Prosecutor should know that in time. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, absolutely correct.
25 Q. So if someone were to infer that you stated this due to some other
1 reasons and not those that you confirmed now before this Court, that
2 inference or that statement would be incorrect. Is that so?
3 A. Yes, it is so.
4 Q. Now, I would like to ask you something else.
5 You were asked yesterday by the Prosecutor about some allegedly
6 private locations and then the restaurants, Del Fufo, Galija, and -- and
7 another restaurant -- Dzino, yes, it's Dzino.
8 Tell me, please, are the restaurants public locations?
9 A. Yes, this is so.
10 Q. And these restaurants Del Fufo, Galija and Dzino that were
11 mentioned in the transcript, page 3926, lines 1 to 7, they are actually
12 quite popular restaurants in Skopje and they're centrally located. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is correct.
15 Q. And they're frequented on a daily basis by many prominent
16 personas. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is correct.
18 Q. But they are also frequented by ordinary citizens many of them
19 regardless of their affiliation or national, political or any other
20 provenance. Is that so?
21 A. Yes, this is so.
22 Q. And practically, each of these restaurants is entered daily by
23 many hundreds of people; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. So what you have stated, these restaurants that the Prosecutor has
1 mentioned are no private locations. They are public locations; is that
3 A. Yes, this is correct.
4 Q. And if I understood you well, the Minister Boskoski sometimes went
5 privately to some of these restaurants; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, this is correct.
7 Q. For you, the body-guards, it was actually always a problem when
8 the minister would go to such places where there were tens or hundreds of
9 people at each moment of time; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, this is correct.
11 Q. Actually, this was again related to your fundamental duty, that
12 you need to take care about the safety of the minister, and if I
13 understood well, if I understood you well, many people would come and
14 greet the minister; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, this is correct. Everybody wanted to extend greetings to the
16 minister at that time.
17 Q. This would also happen when minister was walking down a street.
18 People would come and greet him and that was always a stressful situation
19 for you, the body-guards; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is correct.
21 Q. That was particularly stressful because that was the time of the
22 crisis, and you never knew who could be someone -- who the person who
23 comes to the minister is actually; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. And I would like to ask you to tell me whether I understood you
1 correctly, when you stated that maybe during some private outings, the
2 minister met Bucuk, this could be understood as Bucuk, as simply anyone
3 else coming to greet the minister. Would that be correct?
4 A. Yes, this is correct.
5 Q. But you could not confirm this fact with certainty; is that
7 A. Yes, this is correct.
8 Q. And you yourself couldn't confirm actually whether Bucuk was an
9 acquaintance of the minister or not; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, this is correct.
11 Q. But what you can say with certainty is that you never saw him
12 sitting with Bucuk or with Johan and having a conversation with them about
13 something. This was something that you never saw yourself. Is that
15 A. Yes, this is correct.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your
17 Honours, I have no further questions of this witness.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.
19 Mr. Apostolski.
20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
21 It is not because we were cautioned by the Court, but I will have
22 no questions to ask of this witness.
23 JUDGE PARKER: That's extremely speedy, Mr. Apostolski.
24 Mr. Saxon.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
1 Q. Inspector, my colleague read to you some lines from a statement
2 previously given to the Office of the Prosecutor by
3 Mr. Branko Pejcinovski. And in particular, earlier this afternoon
4 Ms. Residovic read you some lines from paragraph 30 of that statement with
5 respect to the events at Ljubanci on the 12th of August and who
6 Minister Boskoski spoke with there at that garden. And paragraph 30
7 begins like this: "Inside the garden" --
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not cite, I
9 did not quote item 30, rather, 27, 28 and 29. But I have also -- but I
10 did quote the statement, so for the purpose of establishing correctness, I
11 would like to say that I did not quote from this paragraph.
12 MR. SAXON: I'm grateful for the correction.
13 Q. You told my learned colleague that Minister Boskoski spoke to
14 people in the garden and calmed them down, people at the garden and calmed
15 them down. And then you mentioned that some people in the garden could
16 have been civilians.
17 Paragraph 30 of this witness statement begins like this: "Inside
18 the garden he spoke with some civilians. There were also some individuals
19 from the ministry in camouflage uniforms. I know them only by the face,
20 no names."
21 Yesterday you told us that when the minister entered that garden,
22 police officers in uniform stood at attention; do you recall that?
23 A. Yes, I recall.
24 Q. I just want to clarify you, would those persons standing at
25 attention have been the individuals from the ministry in camouflage
1 uniforms in that garden mentioned by your colleague, Mr. Pejcinovski?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Earlier today my colleague asked you about telephone
4 conversations and discussions that you had with an investigator from the
5 Office of the Prosecutor, and you mentioned that the investigator may have
6 called you around 15 times after you had already given your statement. Do
7 you recall the investigator, during those telephone calls, asking to have
8 a meeting with you, a face-to-face meeting with you?
9 A. Yes, he asked for such a meeting.
10 Q. And do you recall that after the indictments against Mr. Boskoski
11 and Mr. Tarculovski were released by this Tribunal, you refused to meet
12 because you believed that the Tribunal was biased and unfair for not
13 indicting ethnic Albanian suspects. Do you recall telling the
14 investigator that?
15 A. No, I do not recall.
16 Q. Do you recall telling the investigator during one telephone
17 conversation that you now wanted to become the best witness for
18 Brother Ljube, because The Hague Tribunal was not indicting Albanians. Do
19 you recall that?
20 A. No, I do not recall. This is not correct.
21 Q. In 2001, did you know that the man known as Bucuk and other
22 members of the Kometa security agency had a reputation for being
23 criminals? Did you know that?
24 A. I do not know this.
25 Q. Yesterday, Inspector, this is page 3956 of the transcript, you
1 agreed with my colleague that in 2001, Mr. Boskoski's basic message was
2 that you -- one should care for every human being and that all citizens,
3 irrespective of their ethnic or religious affiliations, they should all be
4 cared for, all those who love their country, Macedonia. Do you recall
5 explaining that?
6 A. Yes, I do remember.
7 Q. In 2001, what was Minister Boskoski's attitude towards Macedonian
8 citizens who criticised the actions of the security forces against the
10 A. Can you please repeat the question? It is not quite clear to me.
11 Q. Did Minister Boskoski also feel that the rights of Macedonians who
12 criticised the Macedonian security forces in their battle against the NLA
13 should also be protected?
14 A. I'm not competent to respond to this question.
15 Q. Did Minister Boskoski in 2001 ever refer to persons who criticised
16 the security forces of Macedonia as traitors?
17 A. No, he did not say something like that.
18 Q. In 2001, did Minister Boskoski believe that -- I'll strike that.
19 In 2001, did Minister Boskoski believe that more rights should be
20 given to ethnic Albanians in Macedonia?
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, an objection.
22 Already a number of questions that the Prosecution has asked are
23 about the fact that -- or require the witness to express the views and the
24 feelings of the minister, and just recently he objected to one of my
25 similar questions in this respect.
1 I don't think these are questions that should be put to the
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: My inquiry began with comments made by the witness
5 yesterday as to the "the basic message of Minister Boskoski." And what I
6 would like to explore is what Minister Boskoski's message was about the
7 rights of ethnic Albanians.
8 JUDGE PARKER: And how does this arise in re-examination?
9 MR. SAXON: Well, what was said yesterday during cross-examination
10 was that the Minister's basic message was "you should care for every human
11 being and all citizens irrespective of their ethnic or religious
12 affiliations, all those who love their country, Macedonia." This is at
13 page 3956. So I would like to explore whether the minister's message also
14 applied to ethnic Albanians seeking to expand their rights.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this segment, which
17 my learned colleague is recalling is only a quotation. A part of the book
18 which the Prosecutor had read himself, read at -- it fully but commented
19 only on the first sentence where it is stated that the minister had worked
20 day and night and at the end of this paragraph which was put in the direct
21 examination was that Boskoski wrote in his book that this is a feeling he
22 has towards all citizens of Macedonia, regardless of ethnic or religious
23 affiliation. I don't think the Prosecution has the right to go back to
24 what he had already himself asked.
25 MR. SAXON: The witness was asked to comment about this during
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. Inspector, I'm going to ask my question again.
5 During 2001 what was Minister Boskoski's message - to use the same
6 word - regarding ethnic Albanians who sought to increase their rights in
8 A. The very background and origin of the minister from the village of
9 Celopek which is a mixed village, both Albanians and Macedonians lived
10 together, and through there and through the Macedonia he fought for the
11 equality of all citizens of Macedonia.
12 Q. Did Minister Boskoski agree to the efforts of some ethnic
13 Albanians to expand their constitutional rights in 2001?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again, I have
15 to object, because this is not a question for this witness. He is a
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be able to proceed, Ms. Residovic, on the
18 same basis that earlier questioning has.
19 Carry on, Mr. Saxon.
20 MR. SAXON:
21 Q. Inspector, in 2001, did Minister Boskoski agree to the efforts of
22 some ethnic Albanians in Macedonia to expand their constitutional rights.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpretation could not hear. Could the
24 witness please repeat.
25 MR. SAXON:
1 Q. You need to say that a bit more loudly.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He did. The answer is yes. The answer is yes?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did he express his agreement to you?
6 A. Not to me personally.
7 Q. So how do you know he agreed with this -- with these efforts by
8 ethnic Albanians to increase their rights?
9 A. I heard through the television.
10 Q. All right. Yesterday at page 3959 of the transcript, you agreed
11 with my learned colleague that in 2001 when Minister Boskoski received
12 news that a police officer had been wounded or killed that he would take
13 it very personally. Do you recall saying that, or agreeing with that?
14 A. Yes, this is correct.
15 Q. And at the same page in the transcript you agreed with my
16 colleague that Minister Boskoski would always say that the police should
17 not react in the same manner and that Minister Boskoski was not a person
18 who sought revenge. Do you recall agreeing with that statement?
19 A. Yes, this is correct. I agree.
20 MR. SAXON: I'd like to show the witness, please, what is now
21 Exhibit P402. And if the binder for the witness could be given back to
22 him so he can look at it in hard copy. And if we could call up on e-court
23 page 31 in the English version and page 64 of the Macedonian version.
24 And, Mr. Usher, if you could help the witness by turning to tab 1
25 of the Macedonian version and turning to page 64 of that version.
1 Q. Inspector, if you could take a look at the top of page 64 in the
2 Macedonian version, please.
3 MR. SAXON: For those following in English, we're at the bottom of
4 page 31.
5 Q. And, Inspector, do you see at the top of the page, there's a
6 sentence beginning: "We must not allow for the terrorists to lead us to
7 the negotiation table."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes, I see it.
10 Q. And this is from a statement that Minister Boskoski gave to
11 journalists on the 6th of June, 2001.
12 Inspector, if you look a little bit further down that
13 paragraph -- excuse me, yeah, a little bit further down, you'll see a
14 sentence that begins: "We must respond to terrorists."
15 Do you see that, just a few lines down? Same paragraph where you
16 were before: "We must respond to terrorists." Do you see that?
17 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if I could ask your assistance to direct
18 the witness to the place in his language. You can take that, if you like.
19 It's where the blue underline it.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. All right. That sentence reads the following: "We must respond
23 to terrorists with the same manner and methods that they bring into play."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I see it.
1 Q. Inspector, does that sound like a call for revenge to you?
2 A. I have no comment to this.
3 Q. Well, I'd like to ask you for a comment, please. I'd like you to
4 answer my question.
5 A. Doesn't seem like revenge to me.
6 Q. I see. All right.
7 Inspector, prior to your testimony here in The Hague, did anyone
8 ask you to say that you did not remember details about the events at
9 Ljuboten in August 2001?
10 A. This is not correct. No one told me.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE PARKER: So you'll be pleased to know that that concludes
16 the questions that will be asked of you. We thank you for your attendance
17 in The Hague and the assistance you have given. You are now free to
18 return to your other activities, and the court officer will show you out.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution was informed yesterday
23 that the Defence would require less time with this witness. Yesterday we
24 made efforts to try to bring witnesses forward so the witness scheduled to
25 testify on Friday will now be testifying tomorrow. We have also arranged
1 to bring another ethnic Albanian crime base witness who was not previously
2 scheduled to testify this week to The Hague. He will be arriving tomorrow
3 and will be available to testify on Friday.
4 We do not have another witness available at this time.
5 JUDGE PARKER: That was the clear implication, Mr. Saxon.
6 I think in the circumstances and due to the encouraging progress
7 made with time, we must adjourn now to resume tomorrow at 2.15 in the hope
8 that we will conclude these two witnesses on Thursday and Friday of this
10 And I would ask the registry officer to explore with the technical
11 people the continuing problems -- problem of background interference that
12 we are receiving with the microphones.
13 Thank you.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.35 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of
16 August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.