1 Friday, 24 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 And good morning to you, sir. I hope you're feeling a little
8 better. I doubt that we will detain you for long today.
9 The affirmation you made at the beginning you ever your evidence
10 still applies.
11 WITNESS: SHERAFEDIN AJRULLAI [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Zivkovic.
14 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
15 Cross-examination by Ms. Zivkovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good Mr. Ajrullai. My name is Jasmina Zivkovic,
17 and together with my colleague, Antonio Apostolski, we're the Defence of
18 Mr. Tarculovski.
19 In answering to the question of my learned colleague from the
20 Prosecution and Defence, you gave us your basic information. Tell me,
21 your basic education, you completed in Ljuboten in your native Albanian
22 language. Is this correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you served army in Tetovo, Veles, and Berovo. Is this
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I presume that you were trained to work with infantry weapons in
3 the army. Is this correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In your statement, Mr. Ajrullai, you said that on the 10th of
6 August, 2001, 8.00 a.m., you were in the your vehicle near the mosque. Is
7 this correct?
8 A. I was near the mosque.
9 Q. Very well. Then you heard shooting and grenades from the
10 mountains of -- to the north. You have already said that to my colleague.
11 Do you recall how many grenades you heard in the village?
12 A. No, I don't remember how many.
13 Q. You also, in your statement, you said that you knew that the army
14 was in the mountains above the village of Ljuboten. Is this correct?
15 A. I meant the Macedonian army. That's correct.
16 Q. Of the Macedonian army, yes, this is what I was thinking. Then I
17 presume, then, you surely knew that a few months prior to the events in
18 Ljuboten, the Macedonian army took the positions in the mountains first,
19 due to more frequent attacks of the territory -- of the terrorists on the
20 village. Are you aware of this?
21 A. I don't understand your question. Can you repeat it, please.
22 Q. Are you an aware that, prior to the events of Ljuboten, there were
23 terrorists attacks on the surrounding villages? Had you heard about this?
24 A. I heard of that, yes.
25 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you explained that with your
1 family, on the 5th -- Friday, the 10th of August to the 12th August, you
2 were in the basement of Sulejman Zendeli. You told the Court this
3 yesterday, and my learned colleague Residovic: You gave the answer that
4 you only left the house from time to time, but that you did not see
5 anything in particular. Does this mean that you could not see who was
6 shooting and from where?
7 A. I don't understand the question.
8 Q. In view of the fact that you spent the time mostly in the
9 basement, as you said, does this mean that could you not see who was
10 shooting and from where they were shooting towards [as interpreted] the
11 village? Do you recall that you said yesterday ...
12 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm just told that the
13 interpretation is not correct. It is not "towards the village."
14 Q. In the village, in general, the shooting that you -- who is
15 shooting and from where they were shooting. You said to my colleague that
16 you left only from the basement to -- for personal needs. Do you recall
17 saying this yesterday?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Does this mean that, because you did not leave the basement other
20 than for your personal needs, that you could not know who was shooting and
21 from where in the village? Is this correct?
22 A. I don't understand the question. Can you repeat it, please.
23 Q. Mr. Ajrullai, in the basement of Mr. Sulejman Zendeli, how many
24 people were there in the basement, approximately?
25 A. I can't remember the accurate number; around 50.
1 Q. And, yesterday, you said to my colleague that you don't know about
2 the rest, but that you left the basement on occasion for personal needs.
3 Do you recall saying this?
4 A. Yes, I remember.
5 Q. The rest of the time you spent in the basement then. Is this
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You could not see from there who and from where was shooting in
9 the village, is this correct, from the basement?
10 A. I need to comment on this, if I'm allowed, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On Friday, I saw where the shooting
13 was coming from during the time I was in the basement, so I don't
14 understand what she's asking me about. I saw the shelling coming from the
15 north, and it was on Friday.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Can you comment about shelling on Saturday or
17 Sunday? Did you see any shelling on Saturday or Sunday?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only heard the noise of the
19 shelling; whereas, on Friday, I saw them shelling from the north, and I
20 couldn't understand why they were shelling.
21 JUDGE PARKER: And the noise you heard of shelling on Saturday and
22 Sunday, were you able to tell where that noise was coming from?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the Sulon area, from the hill,
24 there is a village there.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Were you able to hear the sound of any explosions
1 in your village on Saturday or Sunday?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Is that helping?
4 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Ajrullai, you said that -- yesterday, you told us that on the
6 12th of August, on the Sunday, at 5.00 p.m., you started towards Skopje.
7 You were stopped at a check-point, Kodra e Zajmit. Is this correct? Do
8 you remember saying this yesterday?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. After the check, you were put in a police jeep and taken to the
11 police station Butel. Is this correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In your statement, you say that you recall that, with you on this
14 occasion in the jeep, there were Halil Ajrullai; your uncle; Sulejman and
15 Xhabit Zendeli; and Murtezan, who is a mentally, unstable person. Do you
16 remember saying this?
17 A. Halil Ajrullai was not in the jeep.
18 Q. The rest, which I mentioned, were in the vehicle?
19 A. Can you please repeat the question, because I'm not sure about the
20 names you put to me.
21 Q. You -- your brother Hazbi was not in the car?
22 A. It was only myself with some other villagers.
23 Q. That means that your brother Hazbi was not with you in the same
24 vehicle, if I understand correctly?
25 A. That's correct, he was not.
1 Q. In your statement, your brother, Hazbi, also says that, in the
2 vehicle, Murtezan was with him, the person which I just mentioned earlier
3 as a mentally unstable person. He also says that he was with him in the
4 vehicle, but does not mention you. Can you tell us, who was with him in
5 the jeep, you or your brother?
6 A. Can you please repeat the question? I'm not clear about it.
7 Q. I just enumerated a list of persons. Sulejman and Xhabit Zendeli,
8 Murtezan were you with the police jeep, on the way to the Butel police
9 station. Is this correct?
10 A. Sulejman was not with me. Murtezan and some other persons, whose
11 names I don't remember, they were with me.
12 Q. In your statement -- in your statement, on page 4 in item 9, you
13 say that you were with your uncle, Halil Ajrullai; Sulejman and Xhabit
14 Zendeli, and the mentally unstable person from Ljuboten called Murtezani.
15 You say that in your statement given to the investigators of the OTP. Do
16 you remember all this now?
17 A. I was at the police check-point when they beat us. They detained
18 us there, and they maltreated us. These -- these were the persons that
19 with me there at this point, but not in the jeep. I remember only
20 Murtezan being in the jeep with me.
21 Q. In the police station Butel, was Sulejman Zendeli with you or not?
22 A. No. I didn't see him.
23 Q. As a matter of fact, as you said, you were taken to the police
24 station Karpos. Yesterday, you were tell us about the paraffin test. Can
25 we definitely establish that you know that the paraffin test shows the use
1 of a firing weapon?
2 A. This is not true.
3 Q. You know that this test is for this purpose. I did not say that
4 you used such arms, but that this is a test carried out to establish
5 whether someone has used a fire-arm or not. Do you know this?
6 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, this witness is not an expert witness,
7 and I believe that he cannot comment on this issue.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
9 Do you know the result, according to the police, of the paraffin
10 test that was conducted on your hands?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know.
12 JUDGE PARKER: I think that may bring an end to that line of
14 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 Q. After that, you were taken to the police station Bit Pazar, where
16 you spoke to the commander. Is this correct?
17 A. He was with some ranks, a commander or I don't know who.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you. He gave you -- he allowed you to wash up
19 and have a glass of water. Is this correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I have one more question for you, Mr. Ajrullai. Is it correct
22 that you were, in effect, let go from the police station because you were
23 in no connection with the UCK, and that you were not in any way part of
24 the shooting in Ljuboten on the 12th of August? Do you know that you were
25 let go because of this?
1 A. Am I allowed to explain it a little bit more, Your Honour?
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they released me. After they
4 were done with us, in the sense that they beat us up, they maltreated us.
5 They saw that they were simply farmers, and there was no reason at all why
6 we should be there. I'm very much surprised to this day why should the
7 Macedonian police and army fire against civilians. This is something
8 which I don't understand to this day.
9 We were and are Macedonian citizens. We are born there, we will
10 die there in Macedonia, so I don't see why. This is a mystery to me.
11 They didn't what they wanted with us, they reduced us to that state, and
12 then they let us free. Of course, they would let us free then. Like
13 saying, "Oh, well, we apologise to you now."
14 That is all I wanted to say.
15 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I did not get the answer to my question. My question was: If and
17 whether you knew that you were released because you were in no connection
18 with the UCK, and that were in no connection with the shooting in
19 Ljuboten. Please just tell me whether you are aware of this?
20 A. Can you please repeat the question.
21 Q. Of course, I can. Is it correct that you were released from the
22 police, that you did not go to gaol because you were in no connection with
23 the UCK and in no connection with the shooting in Ljuboten. Is this
25 A. May I make a comment, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is irrelevant. There were no
3 fighting in Ljuboten. Why should she ask me about something which is not
4 true? They released me because I had done nothing against the state that.
5 That is the truth, and I'm talking about myself. They beat us and they
6 maltreated us, and then they released us. I think the culprits should be
7 held responsible and punished.
8 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no more questions for
9 this witness.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much Ms. Zivkovic.
11 Ms. Regue, are there any questions in re-examination.
12 MS. REGUE: A few, Your Honour
13 Re-examination by Ms. Regue:
14 Q. Mr. Ajrullai, yesterday, you testified, on page 13, that you saw
15 some houses on fire on Sunday, the 12th of August. Do you know or did you
16 find out later who set those houses on fire?
17 A. I heard about that. The Macedonian army and police did.
18 Q. Were you told how they did this, how did they set the houses on
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I object to this line of
23 questioning. The witness has given a statement to the Prosecution and
24 explained what a -- what he saw. To my question, he also responded in an
25 identical manner in connection with these houses on fire. The Prosecution
1 now wants, through this witness, to introduce information -- second-hand
2 information which are not in connection with what I asked.
3 Thank you.
4 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, I will withdraw the question.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 MS. REGUE:
7 Q. Mr. Ajrullai, you were also asked -- you were told, actually, that
8 since you had not fired any weapon, you were released from the police
9 stations. Your brother, Hazbi Ajrullai, was -- you testified that he was
10 with you in the basement of Sulejman Zendeli during the weekend 10 to 12
11 August, 2001.
12 My question is: Did you see him holding, using any weapon during
13 that weekend?
14 A. No, he never had a weapon.
15 Q. Was your brother released with you on the 13th of August, 2001?
16 A. No, he was imprisoned.
17 Q. Was -- do you know how long he was in prison?
18 A. I think around four months. I can't remember the accurate dates.
19 Q. Thanks. You answered that you never file any report with a
20 committee of the Ministry of Interior established to investigate the
21 improper conduct of the police towards Albanians.
22 My question is: Did you know that such a committee exist?
23 A. No, I didn't know that.
24 Q. Were you ever contacted by any member of this alleged committee?
25 A. I don't understand. What is this committee you are asking me
2 Q. If you were contacted by any member of the Ministry of Interior,
3 of the police, after you were released from the prisons, asking you what
4 was going on, what has happened to you.
5 A. No, no. They never contacted me.
6 Q. You also testified that, after your experience with the police,
7 you didn't trust the Macedonian authorities. Why you didn't trust them?
8 A. May I answer?
9 I don't have any trust because I can't understand why it happened
10 that, from Friday, people were minding their own business, and then they
11 were fired at, all of us. Men, women, children, we were all working. And
12 I don't understand the conduct of the Macedonian police and the army and
13 the courts as well. That's why I don't have any trust in them.
14 MS. REGUE: Thanks, Your Honour. No further questions.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
16 You will be pleased to know, sir, that concludes the questions
17 that are to be asked of you. The Chamber would thank you for coming to
18 The Hague and for the assistance that you have given us. And you may now,
19 of course, return to your home and your other activities.
20 So thank you, and the court officer will show you out.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you to you, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE PARKER: And the Court officer will bring in the next
25 witness when he returns. Thank you.
1 Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the next Prosecution witness will be led
3 by my colleague Mr. Gerard Dobbyn. Mr. Dobbyn practices criminal law in
4 New Zealand, as well as in the United States. Matthias Neuner, who was
5 with the Prosecution team, has moved on to the Delic trial, and so we were
6 fortunate to have the skills of Mr. Dobbyn to assist us.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Well, thank you very much, and welcome to
8 Mr. Dobbyn. Is that D-o-b-b-y-n?
9 MR. DOBBYN: That's correct, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
11 And while we're waiting, could you indicate the name of the next
12 witness, Mr. Dobbyn.
13 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, Your Honour. The name of the next witness is
14 Sedat Murati.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Murati. Would you please read
18 aloud the affirmation on the card that is given to you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: SEDAT MURATI
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Try, if you can, to forget the microphones. They
1 often distract people. Forget those and concentrate on counsel, and I
2 think that Mr. Dobbyn has some questions for you. He is to your right.
3 Examination by Mr. Dobbyn:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Murati, how are you?
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Mr. Murati, do you recall giving a statement to the Office of the
7 Prosecutor on 6th October, 2004?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall that, on 26th April, 2007, the statement was
10 certified by an officer of this Tribunal?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. At that time, did you have an opportunity to read the statement in
13 your native language?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you satisfied that the content of this statement is accurate
16 and correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, at this time, I would seek to tender
19 the statement bearing ERN N006-4262 through N006-4275 pursuant to Rule 92
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P405, Your Honours.
23 MR. DOBBYN: And at this time, with Your Honour's permission, I
24 will read a summary of this particular statement.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
1 MR. DOBBYN: "The witness, Sedat Murati, is a Macedonian citizen
2 of Albanian ethnicity, who was 14 years old and a resident of Ljuboten in
3 August 2001. On Friday, 10 August 2001, the witness observed the build up
4 of police forces around Ljuboten, particularly in the area of the orthodox
5 church and the meat factory. At the same time, gun-fire and sporadic
6 shelling was being directed at the village.
7 "On Sunday, 12 August, 2001, the witness heard intensive shooting
8 and shelling commencing at approximately 8.00 a.m.. He observed a number
9 of houses in Ljuboten suffering damage as a result of this attack. The
10 witness left his house and went to the home of Hamit Hamiti, where he
11 tried to provide assistance to the mortally wounded Dalip Murati. Along
12 with others, the witness then took cover by a stream. The witness
13 returned to his home some time after 5.00 p.m. when the shooting and
14 shelling had stopped.
15 "Within a few days after the attack on Ljuboten, the village
16 leaders negotiated with the police to allow an armoured personnel carrier
17 to enter the village to confirm that no unarmed persons were present. The
18 witness personally observed this APC manned by police officers drive
19 through the village."
20 And at this time, can I please call up 65 ter number 115.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please ask the new
22 Prosecutor to speak slower, because there is interpretation going on in
23 several languages.
24 MR. DOBBYN: I apologise.
25 JUDGE PARKER: We are reaching the end in the fifth language of
1 the interpretation of your comments, so you can carry on now.
2 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Murati, do you recognise the photo that appears on the screen
4 in front of you? There is no need to use the pen at this time.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell me, in general, what does this photograph depict?
7 A. It depicts the village of Ljuboten and the positions of the
8 Macedonian forces, the police and army.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you identify the handwriting on the lower side of
10 the photo?
11 A. Yes, it's my signature.
12 Q. And can we assume, from the date that is noted on this photo, that
13 these are notations were made by you at the same time you gave your
14 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on 6th October, 2004?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I would now like to go over the annotations that you made on the
17 photo, starting on the right of the photo and moving to the left.
18 MR. DOBBYN: If we could move over to the far right side of photo,
19 please. Thank you.
20 Q. On the far right-hand side of the photo, there is an annotation
21 "check-point." In paragraph 10, of your witness statement, you refer to
22 the police fortifying a check-point on a hill over the -- in the direction
23 of Ljubanci. Is that the check-point that this notation is intended to
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The next notation reads: "Hamit Hamiti shtepi." In paragraph 24
2 of your statement, you describe leaving your home and going to the house
3 of Hamit Hamiti. Is that the location shown by the circle with the line
4 linked to the words "Hamit Hamiti shtepi"?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Can you just remember to slow the pace a little
7 Mr. Dobbyn?
8 MR. DOBBYN: I'm sorry, Your Honour, yes.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
10 MR. DOBBYN:
11 Q. The next notation reads: "Sedat's house shtepi." What does that
13 A. It depicts the location where I was and from where I left.
14 Q. The next notation reads: "Kissa Ortodokse." In paragraph 11 of
15 your statement, you describe seeing police moving in the direction of the
16 orthodox church. Is the orthodox church depicted by the circle linked to
17 the words "Kissa Ortodokse"?
18 A. Yes. It's that church.
19 Q. The next notation reads: "Dalip Murati shtepi." In paragraph 16
20 and 17 of your statement, you describe the house of Dalip Murati as being
21 hit by grenades or shells. Is that house depicted by the circle linked to
22 the words "Dalip Murati shtepi"?
23 A. Yes, that's his house.
24 Q. And, paragraphs 23 to 25 of your statement, you describe a man you
25 believed to be a police reservist firing a Zolja in the direction -- from
1 the direction of the meat factory, and then finding an unexploded Zolja in
2 the wall of the Murati house. Is this the same house you circled and
3 labelled on the picture as "Dalip Murati shtepi"?
4 A. Could you please repeat your question. I did not quite follow
6 Q. Of course. In your statement, in paragraphs 23 to 25, you
7 described an incident where you saw a man you believed to be a police
8 reservist firing a Zolja from the direction of the meat factory. You also
9 described then finding an unexploded Zolja in the wall of the Murati
10 house. This house, where the unexploded Zolja was, is this the same house
11 you have labelled as "Dalip Murati shtepi"?
12 A. It's not marked with "Dalip Murati," but it should be marked with
13 "Latif Latifi," where the meat factory is.
14 Q. And that is the location from where the man was firing the Zolja?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And, on the photograph in front of you, is a that labelled "Latif
17 Latifi Mishtore"?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
20 MR. METTRAUX: I apologise to my colleague for interrupting, but I
21 was just wondering whether he would be kind enough to ask the witness to
22 locate the meat factory. We're not sure we have understand which of the
23 two houses he was referring to. We would be most grateful.
24 MR. DOBBYN:
25 Q. Mr. Murati, is the meat factory the same building you have
1 labelled "Latif Latifi Mishtore" on this photograph?
2 A. It's the same building.
3 Q. The next notation on the photograph reads: "Mirce shtepi." And
4 in paragraphs 35 and 36, you refer to a house belonging to a Macedonian
5 named Mirce that was set on fire. Is that the house that is indicated on
6 this picture by the circle linked to the words "Mirce shtepi"?
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters wish to indicate there is a lot
8 of noise, and we can't really hear what is being said.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 MR. DOBBYN:
11 Q. Mr. Murati, I would just -- perhaps if you sat a little bit back
12 from the microphone. Could you move your chair back just a short
13 distance. Can you please move your chair back just a short distance,
14 that would assist in us being able to hear things clearer. Sorry, back
15 further away from the microphone.
16 The final annotation on the photograph is a short phrase beginning
17 with the word "Kronuga." Could you please explain what that annotation
19 A. Could you please repeat it once again.
20 Q. The last annotation on the photograph to the left starts with the
21 word "Kronuga." Could you please tell us what that represents?
22 A. This is the road along which I moved and helped the Ljuboten
23 residents during the whole time, by distributing them food, blankets, and
24 so on.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. DOBBYN: I would seek to tender this photograph at this time.
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P406, Your Honours.
4 MR. DOBBYN: And I would ask that the same photograph be kept up,
5 so the witness can make one further annotation to it.
6 Q. Mr. Murati, in paragraph 17 of your statement, you describe the
7 house of your uncle, Jakup Miftari, being shot at by police using
8 automatic and machine guns. With the assistance of the usher, could you
9 please locate your uncle's house on this photo?
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. And could you put the number 1 on the top of that mark, please,
12 just above that mark?
13 A. Is it okay like this?
14 Q. That's fine. Thank you. Where were the police shooting from when
15 they were shooting at that house?
16 A. From the direction of the check-point, the Macedonian check-point.
17 Q. And could you put a number 2 by that location.
18 A. [Marks]
19 MR. DOBBYN: I would seek to tender this photograph, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P407, Your Honours.
22 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Mr. Usher that is all the assistance we
23 need there.
24 Q. In paragraph 11 of your statement, you describe seeing police
25 reservists in and around Ljuboten on 10 to 12 August, 2001, dressed in
1 camouflage uniform.
2 MR. DOBBYN: At this time, I would to call 65 ter number 199.16,
3 which has been admitted as Exhibit P15 and is also photograph A on page 23
4 of the Prosecution's court binder.
5 Q. Mr. Murati, can you tell us what this is a photograph of?
6 A. This photograph shows the uniforms of the Macedonian police.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, since 12 August, 2001 until today, have you ever
8 been contacted by anyone from the Macedonian police or from the Macedonian
9 authorities and asked about what took place in Ljuboten on 10 to 12
10 August, 2001?
11 A. No.
12 MR. DOBBYN: I have no further questions at this time,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Dobbyn.
15 Mr. Mettraux
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux:
17 MR. METTRAUX: Good morning, Your Honours.
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Murati. My name is Guenael Mettraux, and
19 together with my colleague Edina Residovic, I'm representing Mr. Boskoski.
20 In your statement, you explained that, on the 12th of August 2001,
21 the shooting in and around the village started at around 8.00 in the
22 morning. Do you recall saying that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you also recall saying that, shortly thereafter, shelling
25 started in and around the village. Do you recall saying that?
1 A. It wasn't immediately after that, but several hours later.
2 Q. Well, perhaps I will rephrase the question to clarify it.
3 Can you recall at around what time that morning you heard the
4 first shelling landing in or around the village of Ljuboten? Can you
5 recall the time, approximately?
6 A. At around 3.30 p.m.
7 Q. And, sir, so that -- go ahead.
8 A. Excuse me. I mean, I'm talking about Friday, the 10th of August.
9 Q. Well, that was my mistake, Mr. Murati. I would like to bring you
10 to the Sunday, the 12th of August. Can we focus on the Sunday?
11 A. [In English] Uh-huh.
12 Q. So can you recall at around what time the shooting started on
13 Sunday, the 12th. Was it around 8.00?
14 A. [Interpretation] Yes, around 8.00.
15 Q. And can you recall, approximately, how long after the first sound
16 of shooting you heard the first sound of shelling on that day?
17 A. On that day, I was asleep; and at around 8.00, the shooting
18 started from automatic weapons, and then shelling followed immediately
20 Q. Thank you. And is that correct that, at the time when the shell
21 started, you had taken cover inside your house. Is that correct?
22 A. No, I was already inside the house.
23 Q. And is that correct that you only came out of your house that
24 morning at around 10.00 or 11.00. Is that correct?
25 A. No, it's not correct.
1 Q. Well, can you tell the Chamber how long, approximately, or at what
2 time, approximately, you first went out of your house that morning.
3 A. It was 12.00. The shooting ceased and we took this opportunity to
4 leave the house.
5 Q. So is it correct that, between around 8.00, when you were woken
6 up, and 12.00 you remained in your house. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that also correct that while you were in your house, between
9 8.00 and 12:00 on the 12th of August, you heard three shell landing on or
10 around the houses of Dalip Murati. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And your evidence is that you simply heard those shells, but you
13 didn't see their impact at the time when they landed. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes. When they were fired, I went back inside the house; and when
15 it ceased, then I went out.
16 Q. Is that correct that those were -- the shells that you heard
17 landing on or around the property of Dalip Murati were the first three
18 shells that you heard that morning, or shell impact. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And is that correct that you were later told by fellow villagers
21 that Mr. Murati had been injured by the first of those three shells. Is
22 that correct?
23 A. I was not told by the villagers. This is what I saw myself.
24 Having left the house, we were close to Hamit Hamiti's house where Dalip
25 Murati's house is as well.
1 Q. And one of your fellow villagers told you that the shell that had
2 injured Mr. Dalip Murati was the first of the three shells that you had
3 heard. Is that correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Perhaps I'll assist you, Mr. Murati. I'd like to read a passage
6 of your statement at paragraph 16.
7 MR. METTRAUX: This is Exhibit P405, and if I may ask the registry
8 to go to the fourth page of that statement at paragraph 16, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please enlarge it.
10 MR. METTRAUX:
11 Q. Mr. Murati, I will also -- I'll ask you to focus on paragraph 16.
12 That's the last paragraph on the Albanian version and the first one on the
13 English version.
14 I'll read a sentence to you from that paragraph. It says this:
15 "I heard a big explosion at Dalip Murati's house. All together, there
16 were three impacts of grenades/shells on the compound of Dalip Murati.
17 The first hit the yard and killed Dalip Murati."
18 Can you see that?
19 A. Paragraph 16.
20 Q. Yes.
21 MR. METTRAUX: Perhaps we'll need to turn to the next page in the
22 Albanian version.
23 Q. Can you see the sentence, Mr. Murati? This would be the third and
24 fourth sentence in that paragraph. I will read it to you once again. It
25 says this: "I heard a big explosion at Dalip Murati's house. All
1 together, there were three impacts of grenades/shells on the compound of
2 Dalip Murati. The first hit the yard and killed Dalip Murati."
3 Can you see that in your statement?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And is that correct that you were given that information by fellow
7 A. No. Dalip Murati himself told me and his son, because I helped
8 him when we left.
9 Q. We'll come to that in a minute, Mr. Murati.
10 Is that correct that from your house, you were not in a position
11 to locate the position from which the shells had been fired at the house.
12 Is that correct?
13 A. Can you repeat the question, please.
14 Q. Certainly. Is that correct that from the inside of the house,
15 where you were between 8.00 and 12.00 that morning, you were not able to
16 assess where the shells had been coming from, where they had been fired
17 from. Is that correct?
18 A. No. I could see where they were coming from.
19 Q. And you could see that from the inside of your house?
20 A. Yes. I could see that from the balcony.
21 Q. And where did the shells came from?
22 A. One came from the side of the Macedonian roadblocks, which were in
23 the direction of Latif Latifi's butcher shop; whereas, the third one came
24 from the person I saw firing.
25 Q. Wasn't it your evidence, sir, in your statement, that you said
1 that, prior to the shelling, you had gone back into the house?
2 A. I was telling you about the third shell -- third day, sorry.
3 Q. Yes. And wasn't it your evidence, sir, that prior to the start of
4 the shelling on the 12th, you had gone back inside the house. Is that
6 A. Can you repeat the question, please.
7 Q. Certainly. Is it correct that it was your evidence, and it is the
8 case, that you have indicated that on the 12th, the Sunday, you had gone
9 back inside the house prior to the shelling starting. Is that correct?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You have indicated earlier that you had remained inside the house
12 from 8.00 until 12.00, is that correct, on the 12th of August?
13 A. I -- it is true that I stayed inside the house, but it is not that
14 I was confined to a single room. I could go out in the balcony; and from
15 there, I could see what was going on, or sometimes I watched from the
16 window which is in the toilet, and also, as I said, from the balcony.
17 Q. Isn't that correct that you told the Prosecution in your statement
18 that you had remained in the bathroom during that time?
19 A. But not all the time. I stayed there for a while. Most of the
20 time, I stayed in the bathroom, because from there I could see them in the
21 direction of the Macedonian check-point.
22 Q. Isn't that correct that you have indicated that you stayed there
23 until 10.00, when you came out for the first time, and that the only
24 observation that you could make were from a small window from the bath --
25 the bathroom?
1 A. Can you repeat the question, please.
2 Q. Certainly. Is that correct that, in your statement, you indicated
3 to the Prosecution that you had remained at all times in the bathroom,
4 from which you could make certain observation from a small window. Is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes, but this doesn't mean that I stayed there all the time. I
7 stayed in the bathroom most of the time.
8 Q. Isn't that correct that the only time that you've indicated to the
9 Prosecution when you went outside is, approximately, two hours after the
10 shelling on Dalip Murati's compound at the time when you said you saw an
11 individual carrying a Zolja. Is that correct?
12 A. Can you repeat the question, please.
13 Q. Yes. Is that correct that, in your statement to the Prosecution,
14 the only occasion that you've indicated when you went out of your house
15 was after the shelling on Mr. Murati's, Dalip Murati's house, had already
16 occurred and an a time when you said you saw an individual carrying a
17 Zolja. Is that correct?
18 A. No. No.
19 Q. Is it correct also that you told the Prosecution that you only
20 heard the explosion of the grenades or shells that landed at Dalip
21 Murati's house, but that you never exclaimed to witness the explosion. Is
22 that correct?
23 A. No, that is not correct.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Dobbyn.
25 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, in fairness to the witness, he doesn't
1 have his statement in front him, and I believe that is not what in stated
2 in the statement, I believe. What it does say which should be put to him,
3 which is: "I have only seen the second and third impact."
4 If it assists, this is the last sentence in paragraph 16.
5 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown paragraph 16,
6 again, the last sentence. I think, in the Albanian version, it would
7 start on the previous page.
8 Q. Mr. Murati, is that your evidence -- well, I'm going to ask you
9 another way.
10 Can you identify the location, once again, where you said you saw
11 the first shell being fired?
12 A. Yes. You mean to show it on a photo or in words?
13 Q. If you could show us the location, please. The location.
14 A. In the direction of Latif Latifi's butcher's shop, but on the
15 upper side.
16 Q. So --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness to stay a little bit away from
18 the microphones please.
19 MR. METTRAUX:
20 Q. Mr. Murati, you're being asked, once again, if you could pull back
21 a tiny bit from the microphone. Thank you very much.
22 So, Mr. Murati, if evidence was begin in this courtroom that the
23 fire had come not from -- towards the butcher's shop, but from the eastern
24 part of the village, you would take issue with that suggestion; is that
1 A. No, that is not correct.
2 Q. And if suggestion was made that -- well, let me ask you this
3 perhaps: Were you able to identify the individuals who had fired the
4 first three shells on that day?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. So you're not in a position to say whether the individuals who
7 fired those shells were members of the army, members of the police, or
8 members of the NLA. Is that correct?
9 A. No, that doesn't mean that I couldn't tell, because they came from
10 the place where the Macedonian check-point were stationed, but I can't say
11 precisely who it was that fired.
12 Q. But if someone -- if a witness were to give evidence to the effect
13 that those shells had been fired by the NLA, you could not take issue with
14 that proposition. Is that correct?
15 A. Can you please repeat the question.
16 Q. Yes. If a witness in this courtroom were to suggest that the
17 first three shells, which had been sent on to the village, had come from
18 NLA position, you would not be, yourself, in a position to contradict this
19 evidence. Is that correct?
20 A. I would have contradicted that.
21 Q. But you have indicated, a moment ago, that you were not in a
22 position to identify the individuals who fired those shells. Is that
24 A. I couldn't identify the -- an individual from a distance of two,
25 300 metres away because that individual might have taken up a position in
1 a place I couldn't see him.
2 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'll just refer to the transcript of
3 Mr. Bolton, on the 7th of June, 2007. It's at page 1671 and 1685, and it
4 is Exhibit 1D24.
5 Q. Sir, do you know a fellow villager named Suat Saliu? Are you
6 familiar with that person?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is he an acquaintance of yours?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do you know that he was a member of the NLA at the time?
11 A. No.
12 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown what is 1D507.
13 It has an ERN of 1D00-4667 in the English and 1D00-4674 in the Macedonian.
14 Q. Mr. Murati, there is no Albanian version, unfortunately, but I
15 think you can read both English and Macedonian.
16 MR. METTRAUX: If I may ask the registry to turn to the second
17 page, please, that would be paragraph 2 of this statement.
18 Q. I would just like to bring your attention to the first sentence
19 after that paragraph, Mr. Murati. Mr. Saliu told the following to the
20 Prosecutor: "I joined the NLA in June 2001 and, initially, served with
21 the 113th Brigade."
22 Can you see that.
23 A. You mean paragraph 1?
24 Q. No, paragraph 2, please. Perhaps, I should ask you this,
25 Mr. Murati: Can you read the Macedonian version?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And if I can draw your attention to the first sentence in that
3 statement, it says: "I joined the NLA in June 2001 and, initially, served
4 with the 113th Brigade."
5 Can you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So you will agree that Mr. Saliu was, in fact, a member of the NLA
8 at the time. Is that correct?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Well, if we can turn to the fourth page of that statement and
11 focus on paragraph 9, please.
12 MR. METTRAUX: That would be ERN 4670 in the English version, and
13 ERN 4677 in the Macedonian version.
14 Q. Mr. Murati, I'm going to show you another paragraph of the
15 statement of your fellow villager, Mr. Saliu.
16 MR. METTRAUX: And if it could be enlarged a little bit for the
17 witness, please.
18 Q. At paragraph 9 of the statement, Mr. Murati, Mr. Saliu was being
19 asked about the events of the 12th of August, 2001 in the village of
20 Ljuboten, and this is what he had to say: "As Macedonian forces were
21 about to enter the village, Hoxha and Limaj ordered to open mortar fire.
22 They obviously discussed the situation with Bushi, with whom they were in
23 contact on mobile phone. About six or seven mortars sounds were fired.
24 Our mortars targeted the army positions.
25 "I think that five rounds missed the targets, while two hit the
1 army positions. Macedonian security forces were beating the villagers of
2 Ljuboten; and after the mortar sounds impacted, Macedonian security forces
3 started to withdraw from the village. Some mortars were fired towards the
4 Macedonian check-point close to the orthodox church in Ljuboten."
5 Can you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then Mr. Saliu adds the following: "To my knowledge, they
8 exploded on that compound on the Macedonian part of Ljuboten, close to the
9 so-called Chinese wall, which surrounds the house of Brace, where Ljube
10 Boskoski, the former Minister of the Interior, was shown on TV. To my
11 knowledge, they did not cause any damage or injuries among the Macedonian
12 forces or villagers."
13 A. Can I answer your question now?
14 Q. Well, perhaps can you answer this question: Do you have any
15 reason to take issue with the veracity of Mr. Saliu's evidence; namely,
16 that the NLA fired a number of mortars onto the village on that day?
17 A. This is not true. I don't know what Mr. Saliu has said here, but
18 this has got nothing to do with the truth.
19 Q. And do you have any reason to challenge the veracity of
20 Mr. Saliu's statements that some of those mortars, in any case, were fired
21 in the proximity of your house near the orthodox church?
22 A. This statement is not true.
23 Q. Sir, during the weekends -- the weekend of the 10 to the 12
24 August, 2001, had you been monitoring the presence of NLA fighters in the
25 village? Did you keep tab of any NLA fighters in the village?
1 A. No. I was in school during that time, and I wasn't interested in
2 such affairs.
3 Q. I apologise. This is my mistake, again, Mr. Murati. I was simply
4 asking about the weekend in question, the weekend of the 10, 11, and 12th
5 of August. I'm asking this. Perhaps, I should be clear. Did you --
6 well, first, did you notice the presence of any NLA fighters in the
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you keep tab of anyone, whom you know to be a NLA fighter,
10 about his or her presence in the village during that weekend?
11 A. No. I was simply a 14-year-old child who goes to school and who
12 is interested in nothing else other than school.
13 Q. Is that correct that you knew that the village of Ljuboten was
14 fertile ground for recruitment of NLA soldiers. Do you know that?
15 A. No, I don't know that.
16 Q. Do you know that a number of young men from the village had been
17 joining the ranks of the NLA during that period or prior to these events.
18 Do you know that?
19 A. No, I don't know that.
20 Q. Do you know, perhaps, that several members of the Murati family
21 were members of the NLA at that time. Do you know that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know, perhaps, who Rasim Murati is?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is he a relative of yours?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Is he a relative of Dalip Murati?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And is he from the village of Ljuboten?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And do you know who Faik Murati is?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is he a relative of yours?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what family relationship do you have to Faik Murati?
11 A. He is the son of my uncle. He is my cousin.
12 Q. Could you say which uncle that would be, if you have more than
14 A. I'm not so certain. Are you asking me about Faik Murati?
15 Q. Yes. If you could just tell me the name of the father of Faik,
16 Is it Jakup?
17 A. This is it another Faik, whose last name is not Murati.
18 Q. Could you give me the name of the father of Faik Murati?
19 A. There are many Faiks. I don't know any Faik Murati. The Faik I
20 have in mind is another Faik.
21 Q. Is it Faik Miftari?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And his father would be your uncle, Jakup. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. METTRAUX: Would that be a convenient time, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 We will adjourn now for the first break. There is another matter
3 I must attend to in the break, and it may mean that we are a little late
4 in returning.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
8 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Murati, before the break, I was asking you about a number of
10 villagers from Ljuboten. I would like to ask you about a few more.
11 Do you know a person called Faredin Murati?
12 I think, this time, I will have to ask to you move a bit closer to
13 the microphone. Your answer was not picked up, or speak up a little bit,
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is he a fellow villager from Ljuboten?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is he a relative of yours?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you say what family relationship you have with Faredin?
21 A. My uncle's side from mother's side.
22 Q. Is he a cousin of yours?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know a person called Shefket Murati?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is he a fellow villager from Ljuboten?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And is he a relative of yours?
4 A. Yes. When you say "villager from Ljuboten," it is true. He is
5 from Ljuboten; but, at that time, he did not live in the village, so I
6 wouldn't call him a fellow villager.
7 Q. And do you know where he was at that time?
8 A. Yes. He was working and living in Kosovo.
9 Q. Isn't that correct that he was, in fact, a member of the NLA at
10 the time?
11 A. No, that I don't know. He was in Kosovo, as I said, and I didn't
12 see him at that time.
13 Q. We'll come back to that in a minute.
14 MR. METTRAUX: But with the registry's assistance, if we could see
15 picture which is now I think P407.
16 Q. Mr. Murati, this is the same picture that was shown to you earlier
17 by the Prosecutor upon which you made a number of markings.
18 MR. METTRAUX: I'll ask the registry to focus, if possible, on the
19 area that has a number of circles marked already. Thank you very much.
20 Q. Sir, on the picture in front of you, are you able to see the house
21 of Rasim Murati, or is it outside of the framework of this picture?
22 A. It's outside the framework.
23 Q. How about the house of Faik? Can you see it on this picture?
24 A. Yes. It is marked with number 1.
25 Q. Perhaps I'll ask the --
1 MR. METTRAUX: Well, for the record, this is a house on the right
2 of a circle noted, marked as "Sedat's house," with a number 1 on the top
3 of the house.
4 Q. What about the house of Faredin, can you see it on this picture?
5 A. Farid [phoen]? [No interpretation]
6 Q. Faredin.
7 A. Faredin's, no.
8 Q. What about the house of Shefket?
9 A. Shefket did not have a house in Ljuboten.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. METTRAUX: We can take the picture off the screen. Thank you.
12 Q. Coming back to the four persons I named - Rasim, Faredin, Faik,
13 and Shefket - were you aware at the time of this event they were members
14 of the NLA?
15 A. No, I wasn't.
16 MR. METTRAUX: Well, if the registry could, once again, show what
17 is 1D507, which is the statement of Suat Saliu at paragraph 7, that would
18 be page 3 in the English and also page 3 in the Macedonian.
19 Q. Mr. Murati, I'd like to draw your attention to a particular
20 section of this paragraph. It start with the words "There were about 27
21 young men."
22 Can you see that in the Macedonian version?
23 A. Which number did you say?
24 Q. Paragraph 7. That's the one at the bottom of the page. And the
25 sentence, in the English, in any case, starts with the words: "There were
1 about 27 young men."
2 Can you see that, and there follow as list of names?
3 A. Give me some time to look at this paragraph.
4 MR. METTRAUX: Could the paragraph be enlarged some more, if that
5 is feasible.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're moving it very fast.
7 MR. METTRAUX: Well, perhaps, with the usher's assistance, I can
8 give Mr. Murati a paper copy.
9 Q. There is the fourth sentence in the paragraph. I'll read it out
10 to you, and I'll ask you if you can find it in the Macedonian. It says
11 this: "There were about 27 young men from Ljuboten with the 114th
12 Brigade. I remember the names of some of them. They are Riza Jonuzi,
13 Islam Zendeli, Rasim Murati, Arsim Elezi, Faredin Murati, Faik Murati,
14 Shefajet Bajrami, Besim Murtezani, Jetulla Arifi, Bekri Ajdini, Orhan
15 Bajrami, Shefket Murati, Refedin Selimi, Suat Saliu, and Rafiz Bajrami."
16 Sir, you have no reason to challenge the accuracy and truth of
17 this statement of Mr. Saliu about the membership of the NLA, is that
18 correct, in relation to these particular individuals?
19 A. I cannot comment on Suat Saliu's words.
20 Q. Well, is it correct that your cousin, Faik, was in charge of the
21 logistic for the NLA in the village of Ljuboten. Is that correct?
22 A. I don't know.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Dobbyn.
24 MR. DOBBYN: I would just like to clarify here. I know questions
25 have been asked about Faik Murati. I believe that the witness, when he
1 was answering questions earlier on when asked about that, was in fact
2 talking about someone by the name of "Faik Miftari," and said there were
3 several people in the village by the name of "Faik Murati," who he did not
4 really know about. So I think we need to clarify exactly who is being
5 asked about and who the witness knows about.
6 MR. METTRAUX: I will clarify, Your Honour, but I think the
7 transcript says that there was no Faik Murati. I believe the evidence --
8 JUDGE PARKER: That is my recollection.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Well, I will ask about Mr. Faik Miftari, in any
10 case, to clarify the record.
11 Q. Mr. Murati, were you aware that Faik Miftari, your cousin, was or
12 wasn't, or if Mr. Faik Miftari was a member of the NLA. Do you know that?
13 A. No, that's not true. I don't know.
14 Q. Isn't it the case that Faik, in fact, fought for the UCK first in
15 Kosovo and then in Tetovo? Are you aware of that?
16 A. No, I'm not.
17 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Zecir Murati?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And is he a relative of yours?
20 A. Excuse me, I understand that you say Zecir Murati, but there are
21 two Zecirs with the same last name, so I don't know which one you are
22 referring to. Could you tell me their age or something like that that
23 would identify who you mean?
24 Q. I think the Court and myself will be dependent on you to tell us
25 that. Could you tell us whether, first, both of the Zecir Murati were
1 relative of yours, or one of them?
2 A. Both of them are my cousins. One is on my mother's side, and the
3 other on my father's side.
4 Q. And did both of them reside in the village of Ljuboten at the
5 time, in August of 2001, or did one of them?
6 A. One of them resided in Ljuboten.
7 Q. And -- yes.
8 A. As for the other one, I don't know.
9 Q. Are you aware that one of the -- one of your two cousins, Zecir,
10 was a member of the NLA at the time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. But if your village leader, Mr. Salievski, were to say so to the
13 Office of the Prosecutor, you would have no reason to take issue with this
14 statement. Is that correct?
15 A. Could you please ask me a more clearer question, because I don't
16 understand it.
17 Q. I will ask it differently. Is it possible that perhaps one of
18 your cousin, Zecir, was a member of the NLA without you being aware of
19 that fact. Is it possible?
20 A. Everything is possible; but if I don't know about something as a
21 fact, I cannot confirm it or deny it. I cannot say anything about that.
22 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Murati, that your father, Rahim, spent sometime
23 in prison?
24 A. Repeat your question, please.
25 Q. Is it correct that your father, Rahim, was detained, was in prison
1 for some time.
2 A. Which time-period are you referring to?
3 Q. In 1999 and the year 2000.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And he was arrested because weapons, an automatic gun and
6 hand-grenades, were found in your house. Is that correct?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can you tell this Chamber why your father was imprisoned in 1999
9 and 2000?
10 A. My father was imprisoned for something that was not related to
12 Q. And could you tell us what that was, sir.
13 A. During that time, my brother and a cousin, my aunt's son, that is,
14 had bought something and put it in the house without the knowledge of my
16 Q. And those were weapons and ammunitions and hand-grenades. Is that
18 A. No, that's not correct. But can you please tell me why you're
19 asking me these questions when they have nothing to do with what we are
20 discussing today? This happened before the war, and I'm not here to
21 testify about what had happened to my father and what is not related to
22 what we're discussing today.
23 Q. Well, I just ask you one more question about this. Could you tell
24 the Chamber what were those items which were brought into your house
25 without the knowledge of your father, if you know?
1 A. I don't feel very well. Sorry.
2 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, should we perhaps take a short break?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need some time because you
4 mentioned my father, and my father has died.
5 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn for quarter of an hour.
6 --- Break taken at 11.32 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.06 p.m.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can continue now, Mr. Mettraux.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Murati, we've been informed at the break about the recent
11 passing away of your father, and we would like to express our condolences.
12 I have one more -- or one last question about this issue, if can
13 you answer it. Are you able to say what item were found in your house
14 which led to the detention of your father?
15 A. I really don't know why you're interested so much in this, when it
16 has nothing to do with what we're talking today. It can lead to a long
18 Q. Well, are you perhaps simply able to --
19 MR. METTRAUX: I think there's been a typo at --
20 Q. Well, perhaps, you can assist us simply be telling us whether you
21 have knowledge of the item in question or not, simply that?
22 A. No, I don't know anything about this. I was not at home when this
23 happened. This is all I can say.
24 Q. Thank you. You will recall, earlier today, you indicated to me
25 that you had talk with Dalip Murati. Do you recall that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And I'm still talking of the 12th of August, and you've indicated
3 that Mr. Murati told you that he had been injured by the first shell that
4 landed on to his property. Do you recall saying that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I suppose that if another villager, who testified before this
7 Tribunal, suggested that Mr. Murati had been injured not on the 12th but
8 on Saturday, the 11th, you would take issue with that evidence. Is that
10 A. No.
11 Q. So you would not agree -- I'll make it clear, perhaps, for the
12 record. You would not agree with the suggestion that Mr. Dalip Murati
13 was, in fact, injured on Saturday, the 11th.
14 A. No, I don't.
15 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, simply for the record, this is
16 evidence of M-92, and his statement was admitted as P215, paragraph 5 to
18 Q. You will recall I asked you earlier where you were during the
19 hours of 8.00 to 12.00 on the 12th of August; and, at first, you told me
20 you were inside the house. Do you recall? It was at page 22. Do you
21 recall telling me that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then a little later, you said, at some stage, you had gone on
24 to the balcony. That's at page 25. Do you recall saying that?
25 A. Make it clearer, please.
1 Q. Yes. Do you recall that a few moments after you had said that you
2 were in your house, you said that you had made a number of observations
3 from the balcony of your house. Do you recall saying that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you also recall being asked, by the Prosecution during your
6 interview of the 6th of October, 2004, where you had been during these
7 four hours, between 8.00 and 12.00? Do you recall that?
8 A. I already told you that I was at home.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Well, perhaps, with the assistance of the registry,
10 I'd like to show the witness, once again, his statement. That is P405,
11 and it would be at page 4 of the statement, paragraph 21.
12 Q. Mr. Murati, that would be the last paragraph on this page. That's
13 page 5 of this statement in the Albanian version. I'll just read out what
14 you are recorded to have said to the Prosecution: "We spent four hours at
15 our place. During this time, I monitored quite good from the first floor
16 inside the bathroom. From that place, I have had a very good view of the
17 area through a very small window. I can see from my house parts of the
18 location of the orthodox church. I have a full sight over the butcher
20 Do you recall saying that to the Prosecutor?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that was correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is that also correct that this window in the bathroom faces
25 south-east in the direction of the church and Latif Latifi's house, as a
1 butcher shop. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that also correct that, from this window, you can't see the
4 location which you've marked as being the check-point of the Macedonian
6 A. No. You can see the check-point as well.
7 Q. But you would have to put your head outside the window. Is that
9 A. No. There are two small windows in my bathroom.
10 Q. Is that correct, sir, that have you never indicated to the
11 Prosecution that you made any observation from a balcony in your house?
12 Is that correct?
13 A. No, that's not correct. I've mentioned that. It's in the 21st
15 Q. Well, I will perhaps re-read the paragraph to you. It says this:
16 "We spent four hours at our place. During this time, I monitored quite
17 good from the first floor inside the bathroom. From that place, I have
18 had a very good view of the area through a very small window. I can see
19 from my house parts of the location of the orthodox church. I have a full
20 sight over the butcher factory."
21 You will agree that there is no mention of a balcony and no
22 mention of a second window. Is that correct?
23 A. Excuse me, but I think it is somewhere in this paragraph, or maybe
24 in another paragraph. It should be mentioned somewhere.
25 Q. Is it correct that --
1 A. I think it's when it mentions a monitoring from the window. I've
2 said that have I been most of the time in the bathroom, which means that I
3 spent quite a little time on the balcony, because there is no shelter in
4 the balcony. You're quite exposed there. While there, I thought they
5 might detect me, and that's why I went to the bathroom where I couldn't be
7 I've said these things, and they refer to something that I've done
8 for quite some time [as interpreted]. Maybe that's why it has not been
9 mentioned in the statement.
10 Q. Is that correct that, in 2001, you were a 14-year-old?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Line 4, in page 46,
12 should read "for quite short time."
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm now 20, 21, and maybe can you
15 MR. METTRAUX:
16 Q. But is that correct that, at the time, you had done no military
17 service of any kind?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But you knew, however, that the police would sometimes where blue
20 uniforms and sometimes camouflage uniforms. Is that correct?
21 A. Could you please repeat your question.
22 Q. Certainly. Were you aware that the Macedonian police sometimes
23 wore blue uniforms? Did you know that at the time?
24 A. Well, we came across policemen on the roads, on check-points.
25 We've seen them on TV, so it's quite normal for a person to know how the
1 police looks like in his country. This is quite usual. Everyone can know
3 Q. And those police officers, which you would see at times, some of
4 them would wear a blue uniform. Is that correct?
5 A. No, not blue.
6 Q. Well, perhaps, I'll ask you to go again to your statement, which I
7 think is still on your screen.
8 MR. METTRAUX: I'll ask the registry to turn to page 3, and to
9 focus, please, on paragraph 11.
10 Q. I'll just read the passage to you, sir. You were being asked to
11 describe your observation at the time, and this is what you said: "Some
12 of them wearing masks. Being asked for the police, I say these people
13 were wearing blue uniforms."
14 Do you recall saying that?
15 A. No, not blue. Only the colour mentioned here is in the correct.
16 I said black T-shirts. Here it says "blue."
17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that police officers would sometimes
18 where camouflage uniforms?
19 A. Yes, the ones we saw in the picture.
20 Q. And those are identical to those worn by the members of the army.
21 Is that correct?
22 A. The army wore same uniforms as those on the photograph.
23 Q. Is that also correct that you've indicated to the Prosecutor that
24 you did not see any patches or insignias on the individuals whom you saw
25 in the village on the 12th of August. Is that correct?
1 A. No, I didn't see any.
2 Q. You will recall that, in your statement to the Prosecution and
3 earlier today, you've indicated seeing a man who carried what you believe
4 to be a shoulder-propelled device, which you called a "Zolja." Do you
5 remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember what time it was, approximately, when you saw that
9 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know the exact time, but it was
10 around 10.00, about this time. At that moment, I was on the balcony at
11 the corner of the house and I sort of stepped outside, putting myself in
12 danger. I heard shouting coming from the other side of the village, from
13 the residents; and, at that time, I saw this person. He was wearing a
14 black T-shirt and military trousers.
15 There was another person with him. I only saw his hands. And
16 this person in question, I saw taking the Zolja from his hands. And at
17 this time, I think they detected my presence, and they started to fire in
18 my direction, so I sheltered in the house. When the shooting ended, I
19 went out in the balcony as well; and, at that moment, I saw that Dalip
20 Murati's house was on fire, and that's when I was sure that they were
21 shooting in the direction of Dalip Murati's house.
22 Q. Do you recall saying that the man whom you saw shooting, or
23 carrying a Zolja, rather, was wearing a mask? Do you recall that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was he also wearing something on his head? A hat, a helmet?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And do you recall how long you saw that person, for how long?
3 A. For ten to 20 seconds, I would say, a very short time.
4 Q. And was he moving around while you were observing him?
5 A. No. He was getting ready to fire.
6 Q. And is that correct that, from the distance and from your
7 observation, you could not tell whether that person was a member of the
8 police or a member of the army. Is that correct?
9 A. I could identify him only by his trousers, because they were the
10 same as the pattern we saw on the photograph, but I didn't see any
12 Q. And you've explained, I think, that as you saw this person you
13 returned to your house and into the basement of your house. Is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you recall how long you spent in the basement prior to
17 getting out again?
18 A. Until the shooting ended.
19 Q. And you've indicated that you believed it was around 12.00. Is
20 that correct?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you indicate around what time you believe you came out of
23 the basement of your house?
24 A. I don't understand what you are saying.
25 Q. Well, you've indicated that you, from, you said, the balcony of
1 your house, you went back into the house and into the basement, where you
2 stayed until the fire stopped. And I'm asking: Can you recall,
3 approximately, what time that was when the shelling stopped and when you
4 came out of the house; or, in any case, outside of the basement?
5 A. I didn't say "the shots," but I say "the shot." I meant the shot
6 that I heard at that moment, which lasted at most ten seconds; and then
7 after that, I immediately went up to the balcony.
8 Q. And how long did you stay on this balcony?
9 A. For about ten minutes. With some people from my family, we were
10 watching the house of Dalip Murati being burned and cowshed.
11 Q. And did you hear any shelling after that time in the village?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Can you recall how many shells, approximately, fell on the village
14 after that time?
15 A. I apologise, but it's really impossible to count or to be able to
16 say how many shells, you know, when you keep hearing constant shelling.
17 So I can't give you an answer.
18 Q. That's fair enough?
19 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, if we can move in private session for
20 a moment.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 4094 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Murati, you will recall that, in your statement to the
20 Prosecution, you explained that a number of villagers left Ljuboten on
21 Monday, the 13th of August. Do you remember saying that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And, in fact, you described that, within two hour's window, the
24 majority of the remaining citizens left. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And, in fact, a lot of the villagers remained outside of Ljuboten
2 for two weeks, and for some of them for longer periods of time. Is that
4 A. Can you please repeat the question.
5 Q. Certainly. You've indicated, in your statement, and perhaps I
6 should -- I will read it to you. It is paragraph 34 and 35 of the your
8 MR. METTRAUX: And if it could be brought up for Mr. Murati's
9 benefit. Yes. This would be paragraphs 34 and 35 at page 6, please.
10 Q. I'll just ask you the question about the relevancy. You said
11 that: "On the next morning," that's paragraph 34, "Monday, 13 August
12 2001, one of my relatives, cousin Latif Latifi, who is the owner of the
13 butcher shop, came to pick up, on Monday, his daughter, and this was at a
14 time when, in a two-hour period, a majority of the Ljuboten villagers left
15 again the village."
16 Can you recall saying that to the Prosecutor?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then, if I can draw your attention to the next paragraph,
19 paragraph 35, you say this --
20 A. I don't see it on the screen.
21 Q. Can you see it now?
22 A. [In English] No.
23 Q. That would be the paragraph at the bottom of the --
24 A. [Interpretation] Yes, now yes.
25 Q. You indicated, in your statement, that: "During this period of
1 two weeks, the village was nearly empty. Only some individuals stayed."
2 And you said: "Actually two groups."
3 My question is: Can you recall now which two groups remained in
4 the village during those two weeks?
5 A. They were ordinary people who stayed at home because they had
6 livestock to take care of, and they just guarded their own homes.
7 Q. And this may be an impossible question, Mr. Murati, in which case
8 you will tell me so, but can you recall particularly which individuals
9 remained in the village?
10 A. I cannot say names here because I think they are individuals that
11 do not matter in this story; maybe 20, 25 persons all together.
12 Q. That was an impossible question on my part, so I'll move on to
13 something else.
14 Do you recall telling the Prosecutor that you remembered one
15 occasion after the events when an APC came back into the village. Do you
16 recall that?
17 MR. METTRAUX: That's at paragraph 38, Your Honour.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember. It was a couple of
19 weeks after, I don't remember how many weeks, and I was assured by the
20 chairman of the village - his name was mentioned earlier on here - that
21 the police wanted to find out whether there were KLA members. That's why
22 they entered the village with their armoured cars.
23 Q. And the leader of the village whom you refer to would be Kenan
24 Salievski. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And did he tell you that personally?
2 A. No, not me personally, but some of us called him.
3 Q. And can you recall now who told you about this?
4 A. No. I cannot recall who told me this, but we all learned that an
5 armoured car was going do coming with Macedonian police to check the
6 village. And we came -- went out, ten or 15 persons, to wait for them to
7 come. We talked to the police, asking them why all this happened. There
8 were four persons, and that is all.
9 Q. And, in your statement, you indicate that one of the men
10 accompanying this APC, you believed him to be the same man who had carried
11 the Zolja on the 12th of August. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. And that's the same man that you saw for only a few seconds, from
14 50 metres wearing a mask. Is that correct?
15 A. I didn't say that it is it exactly the same person, but that I
16 believe he was the same person, because he had the same height, the same
17 hair, the same face, the same body-build.
18 Q. Was he wearing a mask at that time also?
19 A. Yes. He had a mask from the nose and was tied behind, but it
20 didn't cover the entire face. I could see his hair; and through the hair,
21 I thought that it might be the same person.
22 Q. Is that correct that you also believed to have seen -- or perhaps
23 I should ask you differently.
24 In your statement, you've indicated that you remembered a
25 machine-gun fixed on the top of the APC. Is that still your evidence
1 today? Can you recall that?
2 A. Yes. There was an armoured car, APC, and there was a machine-gun
3 on top of it. There was also a soldier next to the machine-gun ready to
4 fire. There were four or five persons on top of it, and they were wearing
5 the same mask. I saw another person wearing the same mask as that of the
6 person who was firing that day.
7 Q. So, if I were to put to you that no such vehicles, APC with guns
8 mounted on top, were present in the Cair-Ljubanci-Ljuboten area up until
9 the end of 2001, you would disagree with me. Is that correct?
10 A. I would disagree with you, because the same APCs were at police
11 check-points, in the village.
12 Q. If the driver of the APC, the person who drove the APC, one of the
13 drivers of the APC at the time were to say that, during that period, there
14 was only one APC in the area at that time and that that particular APC had
15 no gun mounted on top, you would take issue with his evidence. Is that
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, just for the transcript, this is the
19 evidence of M-37 unchallenged by the Prosecution. It is at 825, 826.
20 Q. And if another Prosecution witness, sir, had indicated that he saw
21 the APC around the village on the 12th of August, and, again, indicated
22 that there was only one such vehicle at the time and that this vehicle had
23 no gun mounted on top, you would take issue with that evidence. Is that
25 A. Are you asking me?
1 Q. Yes, please, sir.
2 A. It's a rather long question. Could you please be so kind as to
3 rephrase it.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I thought that were not addressing me, and I didn't concentrate on
7 Q. My apologies. If another witness were to tell before this
8 Tribunal that at the time and in the area, there was only one APC and that
9 this APC had no gun mounted on top, you would take issue with the evidence
10 of that person, just as you ask with the previous person. Is that
12 A. I would take issues, yes. Maybe he has seen someone else. But if
13 is he talking about this event happening on the same day, I would take
14 issue with that, because I cannot say something that did not happen.
15 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, just fort transcript, this is, again,
16 evidence of -- well, this is the evidence of M-33, again, unchallenged by
17 the Prosecution at 1432, and also perhaps the evidence of Witness Despodov
18 of the 26th of June, 2007, at page 25 -- 2656, and, again, not challenged
19 on this point.
20 Q. Mr. Murati, I'm very grateful for your patience. Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Zivkovic.
22 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
23 Cross-examination by Ms. Zivkovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation], Mr. Murati, hello, my name is Jasmina Zivkovic;
25 and together with my colleague Antonio Apostolski, we represent and defend
1 Mr. Johan Tarculovski.
2 Mr. Murati, you were born and you lived in the village of Ljuboten
3 all your life. Is this correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You completed elementary school, I guess, over there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you graduated in your native tongue, Albanian language?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. Murati, in your statement, you have indicated that throughout
10 these events from the 10th until the 12th of August, 2001, in Ljuboten,
11 you were there together with your family. Is this correct?
12 A. The voice comes very loud to me, and I can't concentrate.
13 Q. Is this better?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Maybe he means the interpretation.
15 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Is it my voice or the voice of the interpreters?
17 A. The interpreters. Both voices get mixed up. You are speaking,
18 she's interpreting, so it gets mixed up in my ears.
19 Q. Is it any better now?
20 A. Yes. Now, yes.
21 Q. In fact, during the -- before the events in Ljuboten, previously
22 you did not have any trouble with the Macedonian population in Ljuboten.
23 Is this correct?
24 A. You mean before the war?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. No, we didn't. But I was simply 14 years old, and I didn't have
2 anything to do with any of them.
3 Q. You mentioned that, on Friday, August 10th, 2001, there were
4 shootings from time to time which started at 4.00. Is this correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does this mean that if someone would state before this Court that
7 on Friday the shooting started earlier in the morning, this would be
9 A. The voice comes again very loud. Can you please do something
10 about it?
11 Q. Can you hear me now?
12 JUDGE PARKER: I think it would help, strangely enough,
13 Ms. Zivkovic, if you could keep your voice quieter. The witness is
14 hearing your voice without amplification and is hearing the interpreter
15 through his earphones, and the two, I think, are clashing. So if you
16 could try to be quieter. It's rare that I ask this in this courtroom. If
17 you could try, it may help the witness to hear the interpreter.
18 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Did you manage to hear my question, or you would like me to repeat
21 Does this mean that if someone would testify before this Court
22 that the shootings on Friday, on 10th of August, started earlier in the
23 morning, this would be incorrect?
24 A. It is incorrect.
25 Q. Also, in your statement, you have indicated that you saw a
1 helicopter flying above the location where, on Friday morning, a mine
2 exploded. Do you recall saying this?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recall whether it was an army or a police chopper?
5 A. Army chopper. It's a military helicopter.
6 Q. Thank you. You probably heard that eight people died and the same
7 number of Macedonian soldiers were injured.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you know that this was a mine that was laid down by the
10 members of the NLA.
11 A. No, I don't know that.
12 Q. Before these events, you noticed that, around the village of
13 Ljuboten, check-points have been established; and in the hills above the
14 village, the military was positioning itself. Is this correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. And this was for the reason that, prior to this mine incident,
17 there were often attacks by the terrorist on the village, on the
18 surrounding villages. Did you hear about this?
19 A. No, that is not correct.
20 Q. Is it possible that, bearing in mind that you were only 14 years
21 old, probably you couldn't know this at that time, since you said today
22 that at that time you were interested only in your school?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On Friday, August 10th, you also stated that you saw policemen in
25 the village, and that there were around ten or 15 of them. Do you recall
2 A. Can you please indicate to me where I said this?
3 Q. Paragraph 11 on the third page. Do you recall that you have
4 indicated that some of them were wearing regular blue uniforms and some of
5 them were reservists?
6 A. I cannot answer to both questions at the same time. Can you
7 please split them up.
8 Q. Then let this be the first question: Do you recall saying that
9 you saw some of the policemen in regular police uniforms and some of them
10 in the reservists uniforms. Do you recall this?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you said then that you saw ten to 15 policemen, in total.
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Thank you. On Sunday, August 12th, the shooting in the village
15 started after 8.00 a.m. Is this correct?
16 A. At 8.30--
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: At 8.00 in the
19 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. To my learned colleague from the Defence counsel, you told him
21 that you observed the overall situation through the window in the toilet,
22 in the bathroom. And also you have indicated, in your statement, that,
23 according to your opinion, the Macedonian police never tried, nor dared to
24 move in the direction towards south, because this was -- this was the area
25 beneath below your house; and, in such case, they would not have a place
1 to hide. Do you recall saying this?
2 A. I don't recall to have said this. Can you please show me where?
3 Q. In paragraph 22, on page number 4.
4 A. Can you please enlarge it a little bit?
5 Yes, but I meant this for Sunday.
6 Q. Yes, very well. I'm talking about Sunday as well.
7 This means that there were terrorists in the village.
8 A. We should clarify this. I declared this: That when the police
9 headed towards the other side of the village, first, they started in the
10 morning on our side of the village; but thinking that it was an open field
11 and there were no Macedonian families there, the police were afraid.
12 They didn't have any support coming to them from the Macedonians,
13 and the field was completely open. And that's why they headed towards the
14 other side of the village, because there were Macedonian check-points
15 close -- closer to that side, and they felt more secure there.
16 Q. I understood the first time as well, but you still did not answer
17 from whom the Macedonian police is supposed to hide. From the Albanians
18 who lived there? From the terrorists? Can you explain this, please, and
19 why would they need any cover?
20 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean? I really
21 don't get it.
22 Q. Earlier, you explained that the area below your house is an open
23 space, and you thought that the Macedonian police did not go in this
24 direction because there was no cover.
25 My question is: What kind of cover? Cover from what?
1 A. I think that they must have supposed that maybe someone might fire
2 at them. That's why I said that.
3 Q. Thank you. And as you indicated, in the afternoon, you departed
4 towards the stream with the rest of them; and, at that time, there was no
5 shooting by the Macedonian police and the army as well?
6 A. Could you please speak up a little bit? I mean the interpreter.
7 Q. So, at the time when you came to that stream, at that time, there
8 was no shooting going on by the Macedonian police.
9 A. You mean when I went to the stream with Hamit [as interpreted]
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. No. There were shootings throughout the time until 7.00 p.m.
13 Q. And, regardless of that shooting, several times you were going
14 back, as you indicated in your statement, for certainly supplies and
15 blankets to the house of Cermiti [phoen] and back to the stream, in
16 between the shooting.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Murati, in your statement, you have indicated that -- in
19 paragraph 33, that you stayed around the stream until it started to get
20 dark after 1700 hours. Is this correct?
21 A. Can I have a look at it, please?
22 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] If the registry can please show the
23 statement, P405, 33rd paragraph on page 6.
24 Q. Can you see paragraph 33, right in the middle in the version on
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recall saying this now, when you can see it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Does this mean that in Ljuboten, in August, it is getting dark at
5 5.00 p.m.?
6 A. I mentioned 1700 hours, but that doesn't mean that that was the
7 precise time. I just pointed out an approximate time. I said until it
8 got darker. Maybe it was a little bit later.
9 Q. Very well. Thank you.
10 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any more
11 questions for this witness. Thank you.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Zivkovic.
13 Mr. Dobbyn, is there any re-examination?
14 MR. DOBBYN: There will just be a few questions, Your Honour.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Dobbyn:
16 Q. Mr. Murati, you were asked several questions by my learned
17 colleague about the shelling of Dalip Murati's house. And, at one point,
18 my learned colleague read to you a paragraph from Suat Saliu's statement,
19 and this was paragraph 9 of the statement, which is Defence 65 ter number
21 That should be coming up on your screen in a moment, Mr. Murati.
22 MR. DOBBYN: And could we focus in on paragraph 9, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one is in English, right?
24 MR. DOBBYN: There is an Albanian version also coming up.
25 JUDGE PARKER: We have only English and Macedonian of this
1 document, not Albanian.
2 MR. DOBBYN:
3 Q. I'll read to new English, and it will be translated into Albanian,
4 Mr. Murati.
5 I'm starting from, approximately, the middle of the paragraph, and
6 it states that: "Some mortars were fired towards the Macedonian
7 check-point close to the orthodox church in Ljuboten. To my knowledge,
8 they exploded on dead ground in the Macedonian part of Ljuboten close to
9 the so-called Chinese wall, which surrounds the house of Brace where Ljube
10 Boskoski, the former Minister of the Interior, was shown on TV. To my
11 knowledge, they did not cause any damage or injuries among the Macedonian
12 forces or villagers."
13 Has that been interpreted for you, Mr. Murati?
14 A. [No interpretation]
15 Q. Now could I ask you: Is Dalip Murati's house in the Macedonian
16 part of the village?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are there any other houses around Dalip Murati's house?
19 A. Yes. His houses, he has three sons, and there are other houses
21 Q. So that is not a single house sitting in an open area?
22 A. No.
23 Q. The shells that landed on Dalip Murati's house, did they cause any
25 A. You mean from the mortar fire? Yes.
1 Q. And did these shells cause any injuries?
2 A. Yes. As a result, Dalip Murati was killed. The house was burned,
3 the cattle and everything else that was in the house.
4 Q. And on this morning, on the 12th, were other shells being fired
5 and landing in other parts of the village, in and around the village of
7 A. From which part do you mean?
8 Q. From any location, are you aware of any other shelling going on in
9 and around the village of Ljuboten, on the morning of the 12th of August?
10 A. But who was shelling? What do you mean, and in what direction?
11 Q. My question is: Regardless of where shelling was coming from, did
12 you hear any other shells landing in and around the village? Is there any
13 other shells whatsoever?
14 A. Yes, there were many.
15 Q. Okay. And you were also asked several questions about NLA
16 activity and recruitment in Ljuboten, and I believe this was on page 33 of
17 the transcript. You testified that, as a 14-year-old in 2001, you did not
18 interested in the activities of the NLA.
19 At this time, did you have any personal knowledge of which
20 villagers, if any, were in the NLA?
21 A. No, I didn't. As every army that has its own secrets, maybe this
22 army, too, had its secrets that were not open for every child or ordinary
24 Q. Okay.
25 MR. DOBBYN: And, at this time, I would like to call up Mr.
1 Murati's statement, which I believe is exhibit P405.
2 And if we can go to -- it's page 3 in the English version,
3 paragraph 11, I'm particularly interested in.
4 Q. Mr. Murati, I'm going to read to you part of paragraph 11, and
5 perhaps you could follow along by reading the Albanian version at the same
7 I will start from the third line, the third sentence. "Being
8 asked to elaborate what I understand about army and police, I say that I
9 have seen police reservists in army uniforms, which means camouflage
10 uniforms. Being asked, I can't say I have seen any patches. I say that I
11 was too far away for that. Some of these people were also wearing black
12 T-shirts. Some of them were wearing masks. Being asked for the police, I
13 say these people were wearing blue police uniforms."
14 So, Mr. Murati, were you able to follow that in the Albanian
15 version of your statement?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So, here, are you drawing a distinction between regular police and
18 reservist police?
19 A. Yes. The regular police was wearing blue uniforms, while the
20 reservists and the army had another type of uniform.
21 Q. Okay. And you described the reservists as sometimes wearing
22 camouflage pants with black T-shirts. Could you describe the army
24 A. Upper part was black T-shirts; and lower part, army trousers.
25 Q. And, just to clarify this point, are you talking here about police
1 reservists, or are you talking about members of the Macedonian army?
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
3 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt -- sorry to
4 interrupt, Your Honour, but the question was just answered. He was asked
5 about the army uniform and he described them.
6 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not clear, Mr. Dobbyn, what direction you were
7 headed in.
8 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, the -- there is some description of the
9 uniform. I'm trying to clarify exactly what the Macedonian police were
10 wearing, as opposed to army members. There may have been some, perhaps,
11 translation or at least just a misunderstanding on this part. I just want
12 to clarify, to make sure what description we are getting of what uniform.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
14 MR. DOBBYN:
15 Q. So, Mr. Murati, could you describe -- I'm sorry. We will take
16 this back a step. Can you please describe what members of the police
17 reservists would wear?
18 A. Same as the army members.
19 Q. Did they have different insignia? Are you aware of that?
20 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'm sorry to --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already said that I didn't see any
22 insignia, any patch with anything written on it. I only spoke about the
24 MR. DOBBYN:
25 Q. In the past, before or even after the events of 10 to 12 August,
1 2001, had you ever had the opportunity --
2 MR. METTRAUX: I apologise to my colleague, but I will object.
3 This does not arise out of the cross-examination; and, further more, it
4 will have no relevance to the testimony of this witness, since he has
5 clearly indicated on a number of occasion that he saw no patches or
6 insignia on that day.
7 JUDGE PARKER: On your first point, I'm afraid I disagree. This
8 issue was raised in cross-examination, but I really think are you on a
9 barren patch Mr. Dobbyn.
10 MR. DOBBYN: I will move on then, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
12 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour -- sorry --
13 Q. Mr. Murati, you were asked some questions regarding your statement
14 that you believe the police had avoided the open ground below your house,
15 and you responded to the questioning that you believe they may have
16 assumed that someone would shoot at them, and that's why you believed they
17 would have avoided this area.
18 Can I just ask you, Mr. Murati, did you see, at any time, anyone
19 from the village shooting at the police as they moved through the village?
20 A. No, I didn't. There was no shooting by the villagers. Nobody was
21 armed. Everybody was minding his/her own business. They were workers,
22 simple workers, not interested in war.
23 MR. DOBBYN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Murati, you will be pleased to know that that
1 concludes the questions that will be asked of you. The Chamber would
2 thank you for coming to The Hague and for the assistance that you have
3 been able to give. And you are now, of course, able to leave and return
4 to your normal activities, and the court officer will show you out.
5 Thank you, again.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. It was my
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, I understand there is a matter that you
10 wish to raise.
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, there are two procedural matters which,
12 if I may, I would like to raise.
13 The first is a document which is marked for identification as
14 Prosecution Exhibit P382. It was marked for identification on the 19th of
15 July during the testimony of General Galevski at page 3834 of the
16 transcript. This is the collective agreement or joint staff agreement of
17 the Ministry of Interior. It was also discussed at length during
18 cross-examination with Mr. Galevski on the 17th of July.
19 When the Prosecution asked that it be marked for identification
20 rather than tendered, it was because at that time the full Macedonian
21 version was not available on e-court. That problem has now been corrected
22 and is well -- there is a better English translation of the number of the
23 articles that are contained in this document.
24 So, at this time, the Prosecution would move for the admission of
1 JUDGE PARKER: The document marked for identification as P382 will
2 become Exhibit P382.
3 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 And the last point is: I hope that the Chamber will recall that
5 at some point, it was probably in mid to late June, that the Prosecution
6 informed the Chamber that the parties had discussed the so-called court
7 files from Basic Court II, which are exhibits P46 through P55. And,
8 although, that is only about 11 so-called P numbers, exhibit numbers,
9 those files actually contain multiple documents.
10 And the Prosecution and the Defence are in agreement, in
11 coordination with Ms. Guduric, our court officer, that it would be much
12 easier, actually, for all concerned, if on e-court those numbers are
13 actually -- excuse me, those exhibits are actually broken down and given
14 an individual number; so, for example, we would have 46.1, 46.2, et
16 The Prosecution has provided a spreadsheet to the Defence which
17 would describe how this would work. The Defence are in agreement with
18 this initiative, and we simply seek the Chamber's approval before
19 providing more formal memo and request to Ms. Guduric to actually begin
20 this process.
21 JUDGE PARKER: The idea seems very sensible and will make it
22 easier for all.
23 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any other matter?
25 Well, we're finishing about 20 minutes earlier but the witness is
1 finished. So we resume on Monday at, I believe, 2.15.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.23 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of August,
4 2007, at 2.15 p.m.