Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4116

1 Monday, 27 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud

7 the affirmation on the card that's given to you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

10 and nothing but the truth.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

14 Ms. Motoike.

15 Examination by Ms. Motoike:

16 MS. MOTOIKE: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Thank you.

17 Q. Good afternoon, witness?

18 MS. MOTOIKE: Could I please have the usher's assistance in

19 providing the witness with a document, please. It's bearing

20 ERN N006-4901.

21 Q. Witness, could you please take a look at that piece of paper

22 before you, and without saying the name out loud, please confirm that the

23 information contained on the piece of paper is correct?

24 A. It is correct.

25 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, if the document could please be then

Page 4117

1 shown to my learned colleagues and if there is no objection, I would ask

2 to tender it under seal, please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P408, Your Honours.

5 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. And for the record, Your Honours, the

6 Prosecution has now called Witness M-051.

7 Q. Witness, you have been granted protective measures in the form of

8 the use of a pseudonym and face distortion. Therefore, your face cannot

9 be seen outside this courtroom and we will be referring to you as either

10 Witness or Witness 051. Do you understand that?

11 A. Yes, I understood it.

12 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we move into private session,

13 please.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

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Page 4118

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10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.


13 Q. Witness, drawing your attention to August, 2001 was the commander

14 you reported to Commander Blazo Kopacev in the 1st Guardist Brigade?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And at that time, was the commander of the 3rd Guardist Battalion

17 within the 1st Guardist Brigade named Major Mitre Despodov?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we move into private session,

20 please.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

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11 Pages 4119-4136 redacted. Private session.















Page 4137

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

20 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. I have nothing further.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Ms. Residovic.

22 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir, Witness M-051.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Give me a moment, Your Honours,

Page 4138

1 please, to take the stand.

2 To prevent interrupting the witness when he starts answering, we

3 also prepared a binder with documents that we wish to show the witness so

4 I would like to ask for the assistance of the usher in distributing those

5 materials to the Chamber, to the witness and to the Prosecutor. Thank

6 you.

7 Q. Mr. M-051, good afternoon. My name is Edina Residovic and

8 together with my colleague Guenael Mettraux, I appear for

9 Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

10 Before I start asking you questions, I would like to ask you,

11 Mr. M-051, to wait a while after you've heard my question for the question

12 to be interpreted into Macedonian and into English, so that the Bench and

13 the other colleagues in the courtroom are able to understand what I'm

14 asking you and please only then answer the question I've asked you. Did

15 you understand this?

16 A. I understand.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

18 to move into a private session briefly.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

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Page 4139











11 Pages 4139-4141 redacted. Private session.















Page 4142

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Pursuant to the constitution and the law of the Republic of

22 Macedonia you must be aware of this, the president of the republic is the

23 commander in chief of the army in both the states of war and the state of

24 peace. Is that correct?

25 A. Correct, he is the commander in chief.

Page 4143

1 Q. And you know, and you did know also, that the deployment of police

2 forces during a war, in a state of war, is also decided such decision

3 would be made by the president of the -- of the republic as a supreme

4 commander?

5 A. Correct. In cooperation, yes.

6 Q. Although in 2001 a new law on defence was adopted you could agree

7 with me if I say that the president of the republic, due to the fact that

8 no secondary legislation was adopted actually, played this role of his as

9 a commander in chief throughout the crisis for this entire period. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. It's correct.

12 Q. When the deployment of police forces for military purposes is

13 decided, because of the basic principles that any army is organised upon

14 and that is the unity and hierarchy of the command, the police forces that

15 are used in military operations are under the command of the military

16 commanders. Is that correct?

17 A. It is correct.

18 Q. Mr. M-051, could you agree with me that the decisions of strategic

19 importance are usually issued by the commander in chief and the General

20 Staff, while the corps commanders are usually making operational

21 decisions, while the lower levels of command usually make the decisions of

22 a tactical level?

23 A. This is correct.

24 Q. I would like to ask you something completely different now,

25 unrelated to the questions that other persons testified about

Page 4144

1 before this Court.

2 I would like to ask you whether it is correct that the president,

3 as a commander in chief, has in June 2001, adopted a decision about the

4 defence of the city of Skopje, and do you agree with me that such decision

5 was a decision of a strategic nature?

6 A. Yes, such decision was adopted on the defence of the city of

7 Skopje, and four brigades were established. Now, I could give you their

8 numbers: 12, 6, 8 and 1, I think, 1st Guardist Brigade.

9 Q. I would ask you now to look at -- behind tab 7, a document which

10 is Exhibit 1D949 -- 99.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Exhibit 1D99. Can you

12 please repeat the document number.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 1D99. It is in tab 7.

14 This is a document which is not made public.

15 Q. Mr. M-051, you see a document from the president of the Republic

16 of Macedonia, from the 11th of June, 2001, signed by the president of the

17 Republic of Macedonia, Boris Trajkovski. Is this a decision of strategic

18 nature brought by the president about establishing defence command of the

19 city of Skopje?

20 A. I think that it is a strategic document. Since this is about the

21 capital of the republic, of a state.

22 Q. And in item 2, it lists the brigades which you just also

23 enumerated, which are -- became part of the defence command of the city of

24 Skopje. Is this correct?

25 A. Yes, it is correct. All these brigades are noted here.

Page 4145

1 Q. You can agree with me that the defence of the capital always a

2 very important defence task of an army. Is this correct?

3 A. It is correct.

4 Q. In the concrete situation, can you agree with me that this was of

5 particular importance in view of the fact that the city of Skopje is

6 located close to the -- bordering southern Serbia and also not far from

7 the border with Kosovo?

8 A. I agree.

9 Q. Also you could agree with me that in these areas there are --

10 there was for a longer period of time, a state of crisis, and in 2001,

11 there were terrorist groups and NLA groups, which by way of Skopska Crna

12 Gora, by -- were connecting and coming together through each other nearby

13 Skopje?

14 A. Yes, via Skopska Crna Gora, Tetovo, Radusa.

15 Q. I would now ask you to look at document after -- or in tab 12.

16 This is Exhibit 1D81, and this is 10342 in the Macedonian. And it is

17 English page 1D3048.

18 Have you found this document, Mr. M-051?

19 A. I found it.

20 Q. This is command of the defence of Skopje of the 11th of June,

21 2001?

22 A. Yes, it is correct.

23 Q. And pertains to the defence of the city of Skopje.

24 A. Yes, that is correct. I know this document.

25 Q. And if you were to look at the last page of this document, 1D3047

Page 4146

1 and the English version 1D3053, then you could agree that this order was

2 given by Commander General Major Sokol Mitrevski, who was the commander of

3 the defence of the city of Skopje. Is this correct?

4 A. Yes, it is correct.

5 Q. We could say, if you agree with me, that after the strategic

6 decision of the president of the republic about the defence of the city of

7 Skopje, that the commander of the defence of Skopje, made an order for the

8 defence of the city of Skopje which was, in effect, an order of operative

9 nature. Is this correct?

10 A. Correct. From this order, the order for our brigade was derived.

11 Actually, for the 1st Guardist Brigade.

12 Q. And you could concur with me that, in effect, on the basis of this

13 order, in effect, that this order established the mission and the basic

14 task of all bodies which take part in the defence of the city, primarily

15 the army and then police and other bodies. Is this correct?

16 A. It is correct. It is correct, on the basis of this order we are

17 deployed.

18 Q. And you have just said that on the basis on this, the order of the

19 1st Guardist Brigade was also brought. Is this correct?

20 A. It is correct.

21 Q. To the extent of your knowledge there was one defence of Skopje

22 and other bodies did not make or bring decisions but, in effect, joined in

23 and executed the tasks which are listed in this order. Is this correct?

24 A. It is correct.

25 Q. And on the basis of this order, is it correct, Mr. M-051, other

Page 4147

1 bodies were obliged to carry out their duties, to plan and to carry out

2 actions so as to carry out the goals and the mission of this order. Is

3 this correct?

4 A. Yes. Everyone would do their part.

5 Q. When we saw a while back the decision of the president and the

6 order made on its basis, you would agree that this is consistent to your

7 understanding and knowledge of the role of the president as the commander

8 in chief, and giving tasks to army and other bodies for the purpose of the

9 defence. Is this correct?

10 A. It is correct.

11 Q. I would now ask you -- this decision, to look at the other page of

12 this decision in -- of this order, 1D3043, the English version 3049, I

13 believe.

14 You can see on the top of this page there's item 3, and in

15 paragraph 4, the English version, this is -- item 4 is on the other page,

16 in 3050. No, this is not so.

17 My apologies, let me just have a look.

18 This is 3049, and this is the fourth paragraph of this page, and I

19 would read it out to you. Here it is said: "The forces of the MOI, of

20 MVR blocked the village of Aracinovo and controlled the access points

21 towards the village. With appropriate forces, they secure the facilities

22 of vital importance in the central city area, command post in the MVR

23 facility in Skopje."

24 Do you agree with me, Mr. M-051, that this order and this way of

25 assigning tasks to the Ministry of Interior is practically in accordance

Page 4148

1 with your understanding of the unified command whereby commands of the

2 commander in chief in the joint defence of Skopje are issued through tasks

3 also to the -- units of the Ministry of Interior? Is this correct?

4 A. It is correct. It is correct the conjunction is mentioned here,

5 joint action. It mentions joint action, in order to prevent deploying

6 army forces at that facility. It is mentioned that police forces will be

7 deployed at the entrance to Aracinovo. So they would then take -- carry

8 out actions at their own level, in order to avoid confusion in the

9 competences between the army and the police so that it does not happen

10 that a facility secured by both army and police, well, there is no need

11 for that.

12 Q. I would now ask you to look at item 5.3 on page 1D3044 and the

13 English version is 1D3050. And here you can see a task of your 1st

14 Guardist Brigade. This tasks, item 2 says that: "With -- supporting upon

15 favour of ground facilities and in joint action with the 12th Brigade and

16 the 8th Ground Brigade and the 1st Brigade and the forces of MVR that are

17 acting within or in that vicinity of the assigned zone to hinder the

18 access of diversion terrorist forces and action upon the central city of

19 Skopje and the organs of Skopje."

20 Do you agree with me if I were to say to you that your brigade had

21 the task of, in effect, together with the Ministry of Interior, act so as

22 to prevent the access of diversion terrorist forces towards the city of

23 Skopje?

24 A. It is correct. I agree with you.

25 Q. Now I would ask you to look at the next page, 1D3045, item 8.2.

Page 4149

1 The English version is 1D3051. In this part of the order, the tasks are

2 established of intelligence security, and 8.3, security protection which,

3 in fact, are tasks which you carried out in the brigade. Is this correct?

4 A. It is correct.

5 Q. In this item, it is stated that the focus of the intelligence

6 should be on timely notifying of divertive terrorist groups and a

7 gathering information for their deployment strength, arms and direction of

8 movement. And in point 3, it is stated that G3 should secure timely and

9 good quality exchange of information with responsible bodies with the MOI

10 in the area of responsibility.

11 Is this correct?

12 A. I see that it is correct. (redacted)

13 Q. And in relation to this, when you came to that area, you

14 immediately established cooperation with the regional police stations and

15 the units of the Ministry of the Interior in the municipalities that were

16 there, where your brigade was deployed. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, this is correct. We established cooperation with

18 municipality of Georce Petrov, of Cair, with the police station.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Police Station Cair,

20 Mirkovci and Gazi Baba.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. If I were to put to you that when testifying before this Court,

23 the witness Mario Jurisic --

24 Your Honour, I apologise. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4150

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. That Mario Jurisic, the commander of the 2nd Company of the 3rd

5 Battalion, testified that he and his soldiers observed immediately upon

6 their arrival significant movements and various elements that showed the

7 presence of the NLA in Ljuboten and around Ljuboten, then you could

8 confirm, corroborate his testimony before this Court?

9 A. I confirm that this is so. I have a lot of information about this

10 movement, which can be seen in the document which I have written myself

11 and sent and (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. I would like ask you to avoid mentioning your post so that we are

17 able to protect your identity, in accordance with the decision of the

18 Chamber while you're testifying here and I will also take care about that.

19 A. Yes, my apologies.

20 Q. Tell me, is it correct that the information spoke the words

21 "people having been seen wearing black uniforms, people -- armed people

22 having been seen," that there were movements around the village during the

23 night, that also some of the cattle was taken to the areas where the NLA

24 was active, also parts of uniforms and ammunition were found in that area,

25 in the direction between the village and the NLA positions, that it was

Page 4151

1 ammunition of Chinese origin, and some were unexpended, live ammunition,

2 which meant that the ammunition was transported through the village, are

3 those the facts that you learned from your subordinates, and, as you

4 stated, also from your personal observations?

5 A. Yes, everything which you have just said is correct.

6 Q. Was that for you a sign that the village of Ljuboten was used as a

7 logistics base for the needs of the NLA.

8 A. One could say that.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe, Your Honours, this would be

10 a convenient time for the recess.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We will break now.

12 Could I mention before we do the matter that had been raised by

13 Ms. Motoike. The document marked for identification, 1D85, was marked for

14 identification because there was no translation available of it. One has

15 been provided by the Prosecution and is now incorporated. It would seem

16 that that document should now be received as an exhibit, and that will now

17 happen.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

21 JUDGE PARKER: We -- I gather, there may be some matter,

22 Mr. Saxon, that you need to raise.

23 Ms. Residovic, I'm sure, will excuse you a moment.

24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour, very briefly.

25 It was recently confirmed to me that there has been a glitch, if

Page 4152

1 you will, in the travel plans made for the next scheduled Prosecution

2 witness who was expected to arrive here in The Hague today. Because of

3 this error that was made, not on the part of the Prosecution, this person

4 will not arrive until sometime late tomorrow and therefore will not be

5 available to begin his testimony, as the Prosecution had anticipated at

6 some point during tomorrow's session.

7 So I wanted to inform the Chamber of that, and depending on how

8 long the testimony of the present witness goes, it might be that we are

9 finishing early tomorrow. This error will also have an impact, Your

10 Honours, on the schedule of witnesses for the remainder of the week. The

11 Prosecution had originally intended to bring two Rule 92 bis so-called

12 crime base witnesses to be here to testify on Friday and after consulting

13 with the Defence we agreed that that would now not be realistic and we

14 will only bring one such crime base witness to be here on Friday. It is

15 important that we keep the schedule that we had set for next week because

16 there are two expert witnesses scheduled to come and they have very tight

17 schedules and have made room in their schedules for this Court next week.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, thank you for that.

19 There's no point for any particular comments about how desirable

20 or undesirable or unfortunate. We accept these things can happen, they

21 have happened.

22 Mr. Mettraux, is there something?

23 MR. METTRAUX: Perhaps to assist, Your Honour, we have had an

24 opportunity to discuss the matter of one of the two crime base witnesses

25 which Mr. Saxon has just mentioned and we've also briefly mentioned it to

Page 4153

1 Mr. Saxon. The Defence for Mr. Boskoski and the Defence for

2 Mr. Tarculovski have taken the view that if it is agreeable to the

3 Chamber, we would not insist on cross-examining one of the two crime base

4 witnesses in question which may facilitate the planning of this we can

5 avoid this particular witness having to travel. I'm not sure whether the

6 name of the witness should be mentioned in public session, but if we go

7 into private session I would be happy to do so.

8 In any case, that would be the, I think, the first of the two

9 crime base witnesses to be scheduled for the current week.

10 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think there is a need for the Chamber at

11 this point to know the name. The Chamber, and I'm sure, Mr. Saxon are

12 encouraged by what you have said and no doubt discussion between Defence

13 and Prosecution will enable Mr. Saxon to plan the arrival of his witnesses

14 in light of that very helpful comment.

15 Thank you.

16 MR. SAXON: In light of that helpful comment, Your Honour, I

17 simply need to emphasise that although the Prosecution is grateful for the

18 expressions by my colleagues on the other side, we may still decide to

19 bring the witness in question that they are referring to.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we have dealt with this matter enough now. I

21 think we move on and we continue to move on as fast as we can with the

22 present witness, because the Chamber is delighted if there is any time

23 available because of other matters.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Q. Mr. M-051, prior to the break we were -- or, rather you

Page 4154

1 established that you agree with my assessment that you -- in the brigade

2 and you personally in 2001, had knowledge that the village of Ljuboten is

3 being used as a logistics base for the NLA. Is this correct?

4 A. It is correct.

5 Q. In addition to the information which you received in the army of

6 the Republic of Macedonia and in accordance with the order of the command

7 of the city of Skopje, point 8, page 1D3046 and others which we earlier

8 saw, you acquired and received information also from the police bodies

9 about this fact. Is this correct?

10 A. It is correct.

11 Q. The information which the police had was much more comprehensive

12 because the army, in this area, arrived only in June 2001, while the

13 police marked and followed the security state on the ground there for a

14 much longer period of time. Is this correct?

15 A. I don't have any written document from the police, since they do

16 not have a duty to communicate information to me in writing. But I

17 confirm this, that when we arrived at these positions in those villages,

18 it was only then that we started gathering information about the movements

19 and the stay there, stay of terrorists or members of other groups.

20 Q. In view of the duties which you had in the army, and in view of

21 your present position in the Ministry of Interior, it is clear to you that

22 the questions related to security and observation of the situation was a

23 matter of state and public security or it was called in the Republic of

24 Macedonia, the bureau for security and counter-intelligence. Were you

25 aware of this?

Page 4155

1 A. Yes, we were aware that they were working on those issues.

2 Q. And you knew that the police earlier and, in particular during the

3 time of the crisis, had regular controls that state control same as

4 military security had associates from among the rank of the Albanians,

5 that for a longer period of time they gathered information about the

6 situation on the ground, and that also they had available operative

7 equipment which enabled them to verify this information.

8 A. It is correct. I confirm this.

9 Q. I would now ask you to look at document in tab 15. This is 65 ter

10 1D510. The Macedonian page, 1D4705; the English 1D4707.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us wait for the document to

12 appear on the screen.

13 Q. And you surely found this document in tab 15?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the sake of the

15 transcript, we received this document from the Prosecution according to

16 Rule 68.

17 Q. You see, Mr. M-051, that this is a document of the Ministry of

18 Interior of the Republic of Macedonia, State Security of the 26th February

19 2001. Is this the document which you're looking at, at the moment?

20 A. Yes, that's the document.

21 Q. As of the type of document, we can see that this is a report about

22 a conversation with the position Ljubo, with the operative source Ljubo,

23 these are probably the undercover names with persons with whom state

24 security organs were in contact with. The topic is terrorism and

25 extremism. And in part 2, the content of the meeting: "One can see that,

Page 4156

1 confirming what was -- in confirmation of the above mentioned is the

2 information stated by the source. It was mentioned that not long ago in

3 the old mosque in the village of Ljuboten, during the Dzuma, there were

4 two unknown individuals, according to this speech they were from Kosovo,

5 which publicly informed those present that all kinds of financial aid was

6 needed for the self-style, UCPMB, KLA in terms of finance; and in

7 addition, emphasising that most important is, after all, to have massive

8 joining of people with weapons above 18 years of age and above in the

9 listed organisations --" I will stop reading here.

10 Is this document or does that document show that already in

11 February 2001 there was information about motivation and calling --

12 villagers from Ljuboten to give logistic support to terrorist diversion

13 groups and that they joined these groups themselves?

14 A. Yes. The document, according to its format, appears to be an

15 Official Note, and it is obvious that there is some operational source

16 with the pseudonym Ljubo, and very similar to the notes that I have

17 written in this sense, and in my opinion, this data is reliable.

18 And I will follow up on this. When I started my intelligence work

19 there, the same people gathered again in that mosque, and I've seen them

20 myself with my own eyes.

21 Q. I would now ask you to look at document in tab 16. This is

22 document 65 ter 1D511, page 1D4709 in the Macedonian; and 1D4711 in the

23 English version.

24 And would you agree with me that this is also a document of the

25 state security of Skopje and is an overview of the summary of interesting

Page 4157

1 security-related information which this person came to. Is this correct?

2 A. It is correct. This is a document --

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Source of this document is

4 identical as the previous one, Your Honours.

5 A. Can I just add something to this? Such documents, topographic

6 maps with diagrams or some other maps of the city of Skopje I have found

7 myself, as well, when making a search on the grounds in the vicinity of

8 Skopje. And maps -- but also sleeping bags and food were seized and then

9 handed over to my superior officers.

10 Q. I would ask you now to turn to the next page of this document.

11 This is 1D4710, or, rather the English version, the same page, last

12 paragraph. And I will read it to you in the Macedonian version where it

13 is stated: "We received information that in the area of Basinec above

14 Ljuboten village, large-scale movement of the population was observed

15 during the day and throughout the night, guards were organised around the

16 installations in the area. It was noticed that a large number of motor

17 vehicles was moving towards Basinec. There are rumours that an unknown

18 number of people are stationed in Basinec waiting to join in the defence

19 of Tanusevci in the event of an intervention by the MVR and ARM. At the

20 entrance of Ljuboten village from the direction of Ljubanci village young

21 men are deployed which guard the entrance of the village and do not let

22 anyone they do not know enter Ljuboten at night."

23 Mr. M-051, does this document also show that in February there

24 were clear information about the activities of NLA and UCK in and around

25 the village of Ljuboten?

Page 4158

1 A. Yes. This document shows it. Since we also had a problem with

2 the village of Tanusevci, and with Brest, Gosince, and a colleague of ours

3 was killed there during an action, and I'm sure that these people were

4 there to help, if help was needed.

5 Q. I will now ask you, Mr. M-051, to look at the document in tab 17

6 this is document 65 ter, 1D512. Macedonian page 1D4713; English 1D4715.

7 This document would be an Official Note of the state security

8 body, which comes from a conversation with collaborators. Is this

9 correct?

10 A. It is correct, yes. It is correct. It is, again, a document,

11 similar to the previous one.

12 Q. This document was written on the 5th of March, 2001. And in the

13 segment that is labelled content, it is said: "At the state of the

14 meeting, the source presentation information about the activities of

15 individuals in the region of Basinec, in Skopska Crna Gora, and the

16 village of Ljuboten."

17 In paragraph 2, in the last sentence, which begins with: "Also,

18 at the same time, the source stated that some of these individuals

19 regularly go down to the village of Ljuboten, in motor vehicles and also

20 to Skopje. According to him, the frequent movement of motor vehicle on

21 route Basinec-Ljuboten-Skopje is due to the supply of food and other

22 articles for the individuals who are staying there."

23 Is in this last sentence of this paragraph: "As a supplement, the

24 source also said that armed persons were known to descend also to the rest

25 homes at the village of Basinec where the people, refugees from Kosovo of

Page 4159

1 Romani nationality were located."

2 On the other page, 1D4714, in the second paragraph of the

3 Macedonian version, the same page in the English version the next-to-last

4 passage it is said: "With regard to the activities of individual from the

5 village of Ljuboten, the source said that recently, most regularly during

6 the night, young individuals would guard the entrance to the village from

7 the village of Ljubanci. They were unarmed and did not permit entry to

8 the village to unknown individuals."

9 Mr. M-051, is this also a document which clearly shows that the

10 information which you previously confirmed, that much earlier than the

11 deployment of your brigade in the area of Ljuboten, there was knowledge

12 about the presence of NLA in and around the village, and the fact that

13 Ljuboten is being used as logistics base correct? Is this correct?

14 A. Since this document is written a bit earlier than my arrival

15 there, but if I look at the actions of the people described here and the

16 explanations in the note, about some movement, supply, especially during

17 the night, I will confirm that this has happened also when we arrived

18 there, at those positions.

19 Also, tractors were used, also the sheep were used as a sort of a

20 disguise. The sheep were taken to the village, but a group of people

21 would come to the village together with the sheep, a larger or a smaller

22 group. I can confirm this. And you can also find it in the reports.

23 Q. Thank you. I would now ask to you look at the document in tab 18.

24 This is document 65 ter 1D, 1D513 and you will agree with me that is, once

25 again, a report from operative sources in positions known to the main

Page 4160

1 inspector for state security. This is a document 1D4717 in the

2 Macedonian; and 1D4719 of the English version.

3 In the contact under the information, which is given on the 8th of

4 March, 2001, in point 4, Roman numeral IV, third paragraph, it is stated:

5 "With his friend, he and his friend were camouflaged for an extended

6 period of time in one place waiting for any kind of game to pass.

7 However, after a while, the source noticed that a group of four

8 individuals of Albanian nationality from the village of Ljuboten was

9 heading towards them, all between the age of 20 and 25."

10 And in the last passage of this page, which begins with: "In the

11 context of the aforementioned, after around half an hour two unknown

12 individuals arrived with three fully laden horses from the direction of

13 the village of Aracinovo and Rastak and asked the welcoming party if they

14 were carrying was needed and immediately headed towards the village of

15 Ljuboten along the ridge of Skopska Crna Gora in the direction

16 Aracinovo-Tanusevci. There is a passable path which has been in use for

17 some time.

18 On the other page, the English version 1D47278 and English version

19 1D4720, the passage which begins with: "Further more, the source pointed

20 out that because of the security situation in the country and due to the

21 proximity of the village of Ljuboten from which gun-fire is often heard

22 where the Albanian population lives, the residents of the village of

23 Rastak have come up with the idea of organising their own protection of

24 the population in the case of any problems. However, without any concrete

25 undertakings or fulfilment on -- in the regards to this issue."

Page 4161

1 Mr. M-051, is this document -- does this document also show just

2 all the facts which you testified to looking at the previous documents of

3 the state security?

4 A. Looking at the document and analysing the description of the

5 localities, the roads, the -- whether the roads could be travelled and

6 also the movement in the directions that were mentioned, I also confirm

7 that this document is reliable, since it has been registered the

8 operational link is mentioned, also the costs for the interview or

9 conversation are also mentioned. I think that this document is a -- this

10 piece of paper deserves attention.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in view of the

12 relevance of the questions which these documents deal with and the fact

13 that the witness has testified that these facts to him have become known

14 when he arrived at the area, I presume that documents, 65 ter 1D510, 511,

15 512, and 13 be admitted as evidence.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.

17 MS. MOTOIKE: Just briefly, Your Honours, with respect to a few of

18 the documents, I believe 1D510 and, perhaps, 1D512 and the last document,

19 1D513, I believe the witness did attest to its authenticity and as well as

20 to some of the statements contained within.

21 With respect to the additional documents, I don't believe that the

22 witness was able to confirm the reliability of the contents of those

23 documents.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying you have no objection to the

25 admission of the three documents you have identified?

Page 4162

1 MS. MOTOIKE: Correct, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE PARKER: With respect to the other documents, Ms. Residovic,

3 is there anything further you wish to say?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

5 explanations other than all of these documents we received from the

6 Prosecution, according to Rule 68, and clearly, they are authentic and the

7 witness, on each of these, confirmed that he believes that these are

8 documents which, so to say, usual, regular, and that his later knowledge

9 confirmed the facts which these documents discuss.

10 I have no further clarification on this.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The documents will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1D510 will become Exhibit 1D141. 65 ter

13 1D511 will become Exhibit 1D142. 65 ter 1D512 will become Exhibit 1D143.

14 And 65 ter 1D513 will become Exhibit 1D144, Your Honours.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. M-051, although you're having looked in these document, you

17 already confirmed the facts, I would now like to ask you: Can you agree

18 with me that in addition to the fact that these documents show the

19 presence of NLA in and around the village of Ljuboten, would it be correct

20 that these documents also lead to the conclusion that, as early as the

21 start of the crisis in Macedonia in 2001, a number of young people from

22 Ljuboten joined the NLA?

23 A. This is correct.

24 Q. Mr. M-051, in view of the fact that in explaining partially your

25 understanding and way of work you confirmed that these and such documents

Page 4163

1 are reliable information, could you agree with me that all officers on the

2 basis of this information, officers of the Ministry of Interior, could

3 rely of the information which security came to, same as military officers

4 in the same manner relied on the information which you verified and

5 submitted to these officers?

6 A. This is correct. Intelligence and the bureau for security and

7 counter-intelligence relies and believes in its operatives, and all

8 information which are submitted are mostly strictly confidential or are

9 state secret. A piece of information, one information, to be circulated

10 in order for one information to be circulated it needs to be verified from

11 various sides. Therefore, I responsibly answer that these information is

12 reliable and correct.

13 Q. The information which we just saw are from the early period of the

14 crisis in the Republic of Macedonia from February and March. Could you

15 agree with me that similar and much more comprehensive information came

16 later and that you also, when you started working in June, also began

17 gathering such information?

18 A. The information in regards to the above place, ground, were

19 gathered in March, in April, in May, in June, in July, August, September,

20 up until 2002; while -- when the mobilised reservists were disbanded.

21 Q. In effect, when your brigade was deployed in the area of the

22 Ljuboten and Ljubanci villages and the surrounding villages, the situation

23 in this area was rather complex. Is this not so?

24 A. This is correct.

25 Q. Very soon after your soldiers, as you just stated earlier, began

Page 4164

1 to find various items such as parts of ammunitions or uniform, tell us,

2 please, is it correct that you frequently found ammunition of Chinese

3 origin which was not used by the army nor by the police of the Republic of

4 Macedonia?

5 A. This is correct. We found ammunition exactly at Basinec, which

6 you mentioned, in Skopska Crna Gora, in the sheephold of Ardi, which kept

7 sheep there, and during the search of the sheep herd, we found ammunition

8 of Chinese origin.

9 Q. And then military security took in certain individuals. You

10 questioned a person called Ismet. Is this correct?

11 A. Yes, this is correct.

12 Q. He did not want to speak with you, and he came accompanied by a

13 person by the name of Kenan?

14 A. Let me clarify.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe we should

16 move into a private session because the witness will probably explain his

17 own activities which could lead to his identity being discovered.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4165











11 Page 4165 redacted. Private session.















Page 4166

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. M-051, you've mentioned Kenan. Do you know that the leader of

6 the village of Ljuboten at that time was Kenan Salievski, or Kenan Saliu?

7 A. According to what I heard, Kenan imposed himself as the head and

8 responsible one for the village.

9 Q. Tell me, was he perceived as a hardliner in the village and is

10 your impression that he was connected to the NLA as well?

11 A. According to me, frankly speaking, I think he had connection with

12 the persons who were in the village, because he started to impose himself

13 on other people when the crisis began.

14 Q. Tell me, if Kenan Salievski were to say in his statement to the

15 Prosecutor that in the village Baki, or so-called Commander Lisi, was

16 linked to the NLA and that he learned this from Nain Saliu and Rexhep

17 Jusufi with whom Commander Lisi was close, then you would not have any

18 reason to take issue with this fact because certainly Kenan Salievski knew

19 who the other persons connected to the NLA were in the village of

20 Ljuboten. Is that correct?

21 A. This is correct. Perhaps he had links but I not researched or

22 investigated this. But can I confirm that he had links. Because the

23 persons which you mentioned are mentioned on that territory after the war

24 too.

25 Q. If also Kenan Saliu would say again in the statement to the ICTY

Page 4167

1 investigator that at least Suad Saliu, Riza Jonuzi, Besim Murtezani,

2 Rafiz Bajrami, Shefajet Bajrami, Fikret Aliu, Nemed Aliu, Ruhan Jashari,

3 Ramadan Jalimi, Musa Selimi, Refedin Selimi, Faik Murati, Shefket Murati,

4 Zaik Murati, Rasim Murati and others whose names he could not mention were

5 NLA in that village, you could again confirm that Kenan Saliu would know

6 who the persons who are NLA members were from that village and that you,

7 also when working there, later would meet or encounter some of these names

8 as being NLA members?

9 A. I can here confirm --

10 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.

11 MS. MOTOIKE: Apologies for the interruption, Your Honour, but I

12 believe the first part of my learned colleague's question asked to confirm

13 knowledge held by another person, in particular Kenan Salievski, which I

14 don't believe this witness can speak to.

15 JUDGE PARKER: I think the problem is largely one of the way the

16 question has been framed, Ms. Residovic.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I can see, Your Honours, that

18 maybe -- maybe I could break it into two questions.

19 Q. First, Mr. M-051, after I have told you what has Mr. Kenan Saliu

20 stated to the ICTY investigator, to the OTP investigator?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you know of your person knowledge that Kenan Saliu, considering

24 his position was able to know who from among the villagers were NLA

25 members?

Page 4168

1 A. I think he knew.

2 Q. And my second question, considering that I read to you many names,

3 is it correct also that through your own activities you learned that some

4 of these people were NLA members?

5 A. I cannot confirm with certainty, but I believe that these persons

6 were mentioned in one place as persons who possibly placed a mine in the

7 military reservists on the 10th of August.

8 Also, I can say that in the village of Ljuboten on the 10th of

9 August, three persons in black uniforms were seen in front of the house of

10 Zendeli in Ljuboten village, which leads me to think that one of the

11 Zendeli family members died.

12 Q. Thank you. You've mentioned a while ago that you were in

13 communication with the teacher, Dzeljo.

14 Before I continue asking questions, I would like to ask that we

15 move into a private session.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4169











11 Pages 4169-4172 redacted. Private session.















Page 4173

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. After the decision to establish a command for the city, the

5 president, the commander in chief, also ordered call-up mobilisation in

6 the 1st Guardist Brigade. Is that correct?

7 A. Correct. I believe it was on the 20th of March.

8 Q. You can agree with me that in the summer 2001, also in August of

9 2001, most of the members of the 1st Guardist Brigade were members of the

10 reserve forces. Is that correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And if the witness Despodov would say before this Court that his

13 battalion had as much as 95 per cent of reserve forces and the witness

14 Jurisic that more than 80 per cent of his company were from the reserve

15 forces these notions would be accurate. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Despodov is

18 transcript page 2614 and 2632, and Jurisic transcript page 3353.

19 Q. And pursuant to the regulation applicable in the army of the

20 Republic of Macedonia, the reserve forces would be replaced every month.

21 Is that correct?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. And that was a huge obligation on the army and your brigade to

24 develop and train the newcomers from among the reserve forces.

25 A. This is correct.

Page 4174

1 Q. Over such a brief period of time it was very difficult to

2 establish actual real control over some of the reserve forces. Is that

3 correct as well?

4 A. This is correct. There were many undisciplined persons.

5 Q. In the statement you gave to the OTP and also in your notes, in

6 your log, one can see that the -- some reservists shot a cow in the

7 village of Ljuboten, and this is why you entered discussions with the

8 villagers of Ljuboten. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, we had such talks. The cows was taken to a vet. It was

10 checked, it was then killed, slaughtered and the reservist who shot the

11 cow was immediately replaced, or, rather, taken from the village of

12 Ljubanci.

13 Q. Also, from the log that you saw, that you have kept over a period

14 of time, but also from other information that you have, we learned that

15 there were other violations of discipline in the battalion and in the

16 brigade, and this is why disciplinary sanctions were taken against the

17 perpetrators, against the offenders?

18 A. Correct. Rigorous measures were taken against the reservists.

19 Q. It would happen that celebrating a holiday or for any other

20 unlawful reason they would shoot from their fire-arms and this would be a

21 violation of the discipline.

22 A. They were cases of shooting, of breaking the discipline but

23 measures were taken to have -- to have the ammunition be paid for and --

24 Q. And you stated that these persons were sanctioned and strictly and

25 they would be removed from the army. Is that correct?

Page 4175

1 A. If they had to be prosecuted, they were prosecuted by the courts.

2 If the problem had not been so severe, the same day they were released

3 from the army.

4 Q. But because of the complex situation and the huge number of the

5 reserve forces and their turnover, it happened that many violations went

6 undiscovered. It could have happened. Is that so?

7 A. There were also cases, but much more rarely.

8 Q. Mr. M-051, would you agree with me if I say if in a joint action

9 of the army and the members of the MOI where the command belongs to the

10 military commander, a member of the MOI would act in breach of the powers

11 vested in him or would commit a criminal offence even, then the military

12 superior would have the duty to inform the direct superior of his in the

13 Ministry of the Interior so that superior could then take sanctions

14 against the offender, the police officer. Would that be the proper way to

15 act in order to establish responsibility of a police officer participating

16 in the joint action?

17 A. It is correct. If the commander of the army is responsible for

18 the joint action and if somebody makes a disciplinary offence, then the

19 proposal to sanction them would come from the commander, from the

20 immediate superior.

21 Q. If the military commander would fail to forward this information

22 to the police superior officer, then, of course, the police superior would

23 have no knowledge about the offence that has taken place. Do you agree

24 with me?

25 A. Yes, I agree, of course. If that fails ...

Page 4176

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask to move into a

2 private session again, Your Honours, briefly.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4177











11 Pages 4177-4179 redacted. Private session.















Page 4180

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. You have testified that on the 10th of August at the Ljuboten

5 Bacila there was an explosion of a mine. Is it correct that in this

6 explosion eight people were killed and six members of the army of the

7 Republic of Macedonia were wounded?

8 A. It is correct. Seven were killed, and the 8th one died on the

9 road, when transported to the military hospital, to the army hospital. So

10 it was eight killed and six wounded.

11 Q. And among the killed were two members of the reserves from the

12 village of Ljubanci, a village neighbouring of the village of Ljuboten.

13 Is this correct.

14 A. It is correct, two reservists.

15 Q. Your soldiers, after the explosion found at the site a substantial

16 number of ammunition and arms. Is this correct?

17 A. It is correct. There were minutes on that noting the weapons

18 discovered.

19 Q. I would now ask you to look at the document after -- on tab 22.

20 This is exhibit 1D86.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would ask that the documents

22 be shown to the public without naming who this document was given to, or

23 rather, without stating where these, all of those items were handed over

24 to --

25 Q. Tell me, whether it is correct that the total -- the ammunition

Page 4181

1 found at the site where the mine exploded was handed by the commander of

2 the 3rd Guard Brigade, Mitre Despodov?

3 A. It is correct.

4 Q. In testifying to this Court, Mitre Despodov said that, in

5 addition to the item listed from 1 to 19 on this list, the explosive means

6 and equipment found, also two documents were handed over, one driving

7 licence and a passport for two persons, inhabitants of Ljuboten. Does

8 this statement remind you that at Ljubotenski Bacila also a driving

9 licence and a passport were -- of two persons from Ljuboten were found?

10 A. Yes, it is correct. The passport, the passports, and the driver's

11 licence, and I think there were some property documents from the land

12 cadastre but there were not sent to be destroyed, since these objects

13 listed here were sent to be destroyed, while the driver's licence and the

14 passports were sent to the sector for intelligence and for security and

15 counterintelligence as evidence.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 For the purpose of this transcript Despodov, Witness Despodov

18 spoke about this on page 2663 and 2664.

19 Your understanding was that the surviving soldiers were also shot

20 from the positions of the NLA?

21 A. It is correct.

22 Q. Then members of the army opened fire to the positions of the NLA.

23 Is this correct?

24 A. It is correct. Fire was opened from the positions and several

25 weapons and instruments were used in that fire.

Page 4182

1 Q. Can you agree with me if I were to put it to that you the

2 positions of the NLA from which it was fire were across from the village

3 of Ljuboten, while the positions of the army were above the village of

4 Ljuboten, and that it was possible for the mortars and other grenades that

5 were shot by the NLA towards the position of the army could also hit --

6 have hit the village?

7 A. I could not confirm this with certainty, but seeing as how they

8 fired at us, since the mines impacted everywhere, it was possible that

9 some of the shells impacted in the village, but I'm not sure about this.

10 Q. The investigation about this event was led by the military police

11 of the army of the Republic of Macedonia. Is this correct?

12 A. It is correct. The location of the mine explosion, the

13 investigation, the photographs, the albums, everything was taken care by

14 the army police, and I think I have an Official Note speaking about that

15 day, about what has happened on that date. And the detailed results and

16 the images and the photographs taking on the scene that was done by the

17 military police.

18 Q. The institute for forensic medicine also carried out post-mortems

19 of the killed soldiers of the army of the Republic of Macedonia. Is this

20 correct?

21 A. That is correct. Because I have seen that album in the military

22 police.

23 Q. Never was one -- either one member of the NLA was not held

24 responsible for this massacre?

25 A. Thus far, none was held responsible.

Page 4183

1 Q. Earlier, in answering to one of my questions, you said that you

2 had knowledge that on that day on the 8th of August [as interpreted],

3 2001, three to four armed individuals enter the village, most probably --

4 which most probably took part in placing the mines. Is this correct?

5 A. That is correct. You can see it from my log, from my notebook.

6 When I received a call from the positions above Ljuboten, that in front of

7 the Zendeli house, the Zendeli family house, three people wearing black

8 uniforms were seen.

9 Q. When you spoke about the 12th of August, you said that in the army

10 barracks Ilinden, you went following the call of Commander Kopacev.

11 A. That is correct. Yes, he called me.

12 Q. And prior to arriving to the command, you did not have any

13 knowledge or any -- of any kind of activities being led in Ljuboten. Is

14 this correct?

15 A. It is correct. I didn't know anything.

16 Q. I would now ask, Your Honours, in view of the fact that we were

17 going on to the questions, reporting to the statements of the witness to

18 go into private session.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4184











11 Pages 4184-4194 redacted. Private session.















Page 4195

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good evening, Witness M-051.

17 A. Good evening.

18 Q. I am Antonio Apostolski. I am the lead counsel for

19 Johan Tarculovski. I have with me my co-counsel Jasmina Zivkovic. I wish

20 to tell you before I start my cross-examination that I will ask my

21 questions in Macedonian and that is a language you understand. But still,

22 you should know that my questions and your answers need to be interpreted

23 into several languages, so please do not rush into answering and wait for

24 your answer to be interpreted.

25 Did you understand this?

Page 4196

1 A. I did.

2 Q. The Skopje Defence Command was composed of four brigades. Is that

3 correct?

4 A. It is correct.

5 Q. The 1st Guardist Brigade was stationed to the north of Skopje. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. It is correct, to the north of Skopje.

8 Q. The 12th Infantry Brigade was stationed in the eastern area of

9 Skopje. Is that correct?

10 A. It is correct.

11 Q. The 16th Infantry Brigade was stationed at Vodno hill. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, correct. To the south of Skopje at the hill Vodno.

14 Q. The 8th Infantry Brigade was stationed in the western part of

15 Skopje. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is correct. Western part of Skopje towards Tetovo.

17 Q. Commander of the Skopje Defence Command was the

18 General Sokol Mitrevski. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, brigade General Sokol Mitrevski.

20 Q. Commander of the 1st Army Brigade was Blazo Kopacev?

21 A. Yes, Blazo Kopacev. He was first lieutenant Colonel and then a

22 colonel.

23 Q. Within the 1st Guardist Brigade was also the 3rd Guardist

24 Battalion under the command of Major Mitre Despodov and it was stationed

25 at Skopska Crna Gora mountain. Is that correct?

Page 4197

1 A. It is correct. It was stationed at Skopska Crna Gora mountain, at

2 the village of Ljubanci.

3 Q. That was so because there was a risk of the NLA terrorists

4 transferring their actions at the territory of Skopje. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is correct. I agree.

6 Q. The greatest risk came from -- no, I apologise, yes.

7 The greatest risk came from the direction of Skopska Crna Gora

8 mountain, more precisely the direction village Matejce to village

9 Ljuboten. Is that correct?

10 A. It is correct. Since behind Skopska Crna Gora mountain there is

11 Kosovo.

12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could I have the assistance of

13 the usher in distributing binders to the Chamber, to the witness, and to

14 my colleagues from the Prosecution.

15 Q. Is it correct that you had information acquired in the course

16 of your work that NLA will attack the city of Skopje?

17 A. We had such information, since they spoke publicly, through all

18 media. They would make statements, threats. You know that all NLA

19 commanders were featured on the Internet and anyone could see them.

20 Q. Did you have information that Ljuboten could be used as the next

21 location from which NLA will carry out terrorist attacks?

22 A. Yes, we had such information.

23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

24 65 ter number 2D00-338, which is in tab 2 of the binder.

25 Q. Do you see it in front of you? Do you see it on the screen? You

Page 4198

1 have it on the screen, and it is also in tab 2 of the binder.

2 A. I see it.

3 Q. Can you see in the upper left corner written: "Security and

4 counter-intelligence administration RO UBK, Prilep?"

5 A. Give me just a moment to orient myself.

6 Q. No, I apologise. It is UBK, Skopje. OS UBK, Gazi Baba.

7 A. Yes, that's the way it is.

8 Q. "Type of material, report on meeting with operative source from

9 operative source Vojnik," or soldier in translation.

10 And then it says on page 2, in item 2.

11 A. I see it, yes.

12 Q. From numerous points in the hills of Skopska Crna Gora were NLA

13 reconnaissance points have been placed in order to follow the Macedonian

14 security forces movements on the route between Aracinovo, Stracinci,

15 Cresevo, Bulacani, Rastak, Ljuboten, and first through their physical

16 presence but also later with use of military equipment to intimidate the

17 Macedonian population, that would panic and flee towards Skopje.

18 This would open the corridor Aracinovo-Ljuboten, that in their

19 belief is of multiple significance. It would facilitate the military

20 activities of NLA near Aracinovo. It would greatly facilitate the actions

21 against Skopje, either through classical sabotage terrorist activities or

22 through open military activities. Such corridor would also protect the

23 NLA positions near the monastery of Matejce and through this, also their

24 positions in the villages Otlaj, Matejce, and Vistice.

25 Do this information correspond to the information that you had

Page 4199

1 (redacted)

2 A. It is correct the information to correspond, especially regarding

3 the villages of Stracinci, Cresevo, Bulacani, Rastak, Ljuboten, that are

4 the positions of my brigade or the 3rd Company of the 3rd Battalion.

5 Q. I if may tender this document in evidence.

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D35, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE PARKER: And I think had an is it probably the time,

9 Mr. Apostolski.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [No interpretation]

11 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, I apologise. If I may, there's a

12 reference on line 12 of page 86 of today's transcript that I believe

13 should be redacted as it refers to a particular position.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Thank you.

15 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE PARKER: We will now adjourn and resume tomorrow at 2.15.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m., to

19 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of August,

20 2007, at 2.15 p.m.