1 Wednesday, 29 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
6 We gather there are procedural matters that counsel wish to raise.
7 Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may we move into private session, please.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 4255-4269 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has dealt in private session because of
14 the nature of some of the material with three motions. The first
15 concerned motions by the Prosecution for protective measures in respect of
16 witnesses that are to be called in this case. For reasons which we have
17 given, we -- the Chamber has decided against granting protective measures
18 in respect of both of the applications. The first is not a victim, and
19 the justification advanced does not come within the Rules.
20 The second witness is a victim, but the essential issue is the
21 identity of that witness. That identity has been the subject of public
22 knowledge fully available on the Internet in a report that is public for
23 sometime and has also been the subject of earlier evidence in this trial,
24 which has not been protected. And essentially in that factual situation,
25 the Chamber does not see that there is a factual justification for
1 attempting at this late stage to impose some form of protective measure.
2 The third motion was of a -- a different kind entirely, and
3 concerned an application by the Boskoski Defence for access to minutes of
4 a meeting within this Tribunal held in 2002. The Chamber proposes to
5 defer its decision in respect of that application because of the
6 significance of some of the issues raised and will publish a written
7 decision in due course.
8 You call the next witness, Mr. Saxon.
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, before I do that, I must inform the
10 Chamber that when the witness informed me earlier this morning that he
11 requested these measures, these protective measures, I asked the witness
12 what his position would be if such measures were denied. And the witness
13 declined to give me a response. I am perfectly willing to call the
14 witness into the courtroom unless the Chamber wishes to take a short
15 recess and allow me to consult with the witness on his position. But I'm
16 perfectly willing to call the witness in if --
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE PARKER: I think you should call the witness, Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON: Then the Prosecution calls Mr. Blagoja Toskovski,
20 Your Honours.
21 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 [The witness entered court].
24 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Mr. Toskovski.
25 You're able to hear me with a translation, are you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It is fine.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the
3 card that is in front of you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: BLAGOJA TOSKOVSKI
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
9 Mr. Toskovski, I should tell you -- first of all, apologise to you
10 for the delay. You've been kept waiting while we've been dealing with
11 some matters. One of those was an application by the Office of the
12 Prosecutor on your behalf for some protective measures. I should tell you
13 that the Chamber has been forced to conclude that it has no power under
14 the Rules in your case to grant protective measures. So there are no
15 protective measures in respect of your evidence.
16 Mr. Saxon.
17 Examination by Mr. Saxon:
18 Q. Sir, is your name Blagoja Toskovski?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you a citizen of Macedonia?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And is your ethnicity Macedonian?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us, please, what is your current occupation and
1 A. At this moment, I work as the deputy director of the public
2 security bureau within the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of
4 Q. Mr. Toskovski, when did you join the Ministry of the Interior?
5 A. I joined the Ministry of the Interior for the first time in 1986.
6 Q. And in August of 2001, what was your position?
7 A. In August 2001, I was at the post of inspector in property and
8 other offences in the department for internal affairs, Cair, within the
9 SVR Skopje.
10 Q. And in that post as inspector, can you tell us, please, just in
11 general what were your responsibilities at the time, in general terms.
12 A. At that post, my responsibilities -- or actually, my job
13 description would entail, have entailed, any property offences, any crimes
14 related to property, motor vehicles, any forgery related to motor
15 vehicles, as well as forgeries of other documents, as well as offences in
16 the area of damaging of certain facilities, installations, so that would
17 also comprise fires caused by various reasons.
18 So that would be it briefly.
19 Q. All right. Mr. Toskovski, I'd like to ask you to turn your mind,
20 please, to the events of 10, 11, 12 August 2001. Do you recall that on
21 the 10th of August, 2001 eight Macedonian soldiers were killed in a mine
22 explosion at Ljubotenski Bacila?
23 A. Yes, I remember that.
24 Q. Were you working that day? It was a Friday.
25 A. Yes, I was working, until 1500 hours.
1 Q. And did you hear about the mine explosion that morning when you
2 were at work?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know what, if anything, the Ministry of Interior decided to
5 do in response on that Friday, the 10th of August?
6 A. I'm not aware of anything of the sort.
7 Q. Okay. And then can we turn, please, to Sunday, the 12th of
8 August, if you can turn your mind to the events of that day. Were you
9 working on Sunday, the 12th?
10 A. Yes. We worked in shifts, so I was on duty on that day as well.
11 Q. And do you recall approximately what time you started work that
13 A. At 8.00 in the morning.
14 Q. And can you recall if anything in particular was happening that
15 morning in the village of Ljuboten?
16 A. Yes. We received an information that -- that at that moment there
17 were police activities in the village against terrorist groups.
18 Q. And do you recall who told you about this?
19 A. Well, it was the head of the operative unit who informed us in
20 brief summary that such events were taking place.
21 Q. And what was the name of the head of your operative unit?
22 A. Ljupco Josevski.
23 Q. All right. And that day, Sunday, the 12th of August, where did
24 you spend that day at work? Where were you?
25 A. I was stationed at the premises of the operative unit. They are
1 in the same building where the Police Station Cair is. So I was in the
3 Q. Recall seeing any police officers around the Cair police station
4 that day?
5 A. There was the regular -- the ordinary security as well as on any
6 other day.
7 Q. So at the time during the day, 12th of August, there was normal
8 police activity going on in Cair police station?
9 A. In the morning, yes, you can say so.
10 Q. Do you recall whether anyone was arrested later that day?
11 A. Yes. In the afternoon.
12 Q. And can you describe how you know this, how do you know that
13 persons were arrested?
14 A. Somewhere during the day I received an order from my superiors to
15 go to the Mirkovci police station, and I was told that there were
16 detainees there, persons brought in, and this is why I needed to
17 investigate the matter.
18 Q. Okay. And at that time were you told where the arrested persons
19 had been detained?
20 A. Yes. I was told that they were brought in in relation to the
21 activity in Ljuboten.
22 Q. Can you recall when you received these instructions to go to the
23 Mirkovci police station, do you recall whether you reacted positively at
24 first to those instructions?
25 A. I do not understand the question.
1 Q. Did you inquire - if you can recall - why you were being sent to
2 Mirkovci to do this investigation?
3 A. I think that I did ask, since there are several inspectors in the
4 police station, and this is why I asked the question whether it would be
5 me only or should anyone else go as well.
6 Q. And when you thought about other people, were you speaking
7 about -- were you thinking about other particular inspectors?
8 A. Yes, whether any other inspector should go.
9 Q. And what was the response? Can you tell me who you inquired --
10 well, what was the response to your concern?
11 A. Well, I asked the -- both heads of the department for internal
12 affairs, Krstevski Ljubomir and of the operative unit, Ljupco Josevski.
13 They told me that I needed to go to observe the situation and then to call
14 them on the phone.
15 Q. Do you recall whether there was something you were supposed to
17 A. In what sense? I do not understand the question. To prepare
19 Q. Were there any documents, if you can recall, that you were
20 supposed to prepare as part of your work?
21 A. You mean before I went there? I don't understand you. Which
22 documents are you referring to?
23 Q. Did your superiors indicate to you that it was necessary to
24 prepare anything at that time, if you can recall?
25 A. Well, it follows, it's the ordinary course of work. They just
1 mentioned that should there be any elements of a criminal offence, I
2 should then take all measures, activities, to clarify the case, and, if
3 needed, to then prepare criminal reports, one or several, depending.
4 Q. And did you then go to the Mirkovci police station on the 12th of
6 A. Yes, I went there.
7 Q. Can you recall approximately what time you arrived at Mirkovci?
8 A. I don't remember precisely. I believe it was around 1600 hours,
9 maybe later.
10 Q. Would it help you to refresh your memory if I show you part of a
11 statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor some time ago,
12 where you described this -- the hour? Would that assist you to recall?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I believe we have copies of the English
15 and Macedonian version of the witness's statement. If we could ask the
16 usher's assistance, please, to distribute those. And if a Macedonian
17 version could be given to the witness.
18 Q. Mr. Toskovski, if you could turn, please, to what is paragraph 15
19 in the version in front of you. Do you see paragraph 15?
20 A. Yes, I see it.
21 Q. If you take a look at the last two sentences of paragraph 15, it
22 says the following: "Being asked, I tried to remember the exact time but
23 I'm not sure anymore. I can say that when I arrived at the station," and
24 that's Mirkovci, "it was dark. I think it was after 2000 hours."
25 Does this help to you refresh your memory about the time, the
1 approximate time you arrived at Mirkovci?
2 A. I think it was somewhat earlier than 2000 hours.
3 Q. Any idea how much earlier?
4 A. After giving this statement, I gave further thought, and
5 recalling, I'm thinking from 1600 to 1800 hours, within this period of
6 time I arrived in Mirkovci.
7 Q. All right. When you arrived at the Mirkovci police station, can
8 you recall whether you saw any colleagues that you knew there?
9 A. In the police station, there were uniformed persons and two female
10 colleagues which I knew.
11 Q. If we start with the uniformed persons, can you -- can you
12 describe what kind of uniforms these persons were wearing?
13 A. At that time, mostly these were camouflage uniforms.
14 Q. All right. And do you know from what institution or what
15 ministry these persons wearing the uniforms came from?
16 A. Part of them were from the police station of Mirkovci. I do not
17 know about the others.
18 Q. The two persons that -- two female colleagues who you knew, did
19 they -- do you know why they were there?
20 A. I believed they were also there on assignment, to observe the
21 situation because one of them was an analyst; and the other worked in the
22 unit for minors.
23 Q. And did both of these -- both of these female colleagues, they
24 were working within the Ministry of Interior?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You then mentioned that you saw a number of people wearing
2 uniforms, some of whom you knew were police officers from Mirkovci. How
3 were you dressed at that time?
4 A. I have been thinking about this question also during the last time
5 we talked about this when I was given this written statement, and then I
6 stated that I was not sure whether I was wearing civilian clothing or a
7 uniform. I've been thinking about this further, and I came to the
8 conclusion that on that day I was in uniform after all.
9 Q. All right. Can you recall seeing someone in the Mirkovci police
10 station who was wearing something a bit unusual?
11 A. I do not understand the question. What do you mean?
12 Q. Can you recall seeing a person in Mirkovci police station wearing
13 a mask?
14 A. I think there were persons with masks and camouflage uniforms, for
15 a short period of time.
16 Q. Do you recall what kind of mask it was?
17 A. A standard one used by the police forces.
18 Q. When you arrived, did you see anyone in Mirkovci police station
19 dressed in civilian clothes?
20 A. Other than my female colleagues, I don't think having seen any
21 other persons in civilian clothing.
22 Q. Mr. Toskovski, can you recall the name of the person who was the
23 commander of the Mirkovci police station in August 2001?
24 A. I cannot recall. I know him, but I cannot, at this moment,
25 remember the name.
1 Q. Mr. Toskovski, to assist you, could you take a look, please, at
2 paragraph 19 of the statement that's in front of you, the first two
3 sentences of that paragraph. It says --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "The first thing I did was I spoke to the commander of the police
6 station, Slavko. He was in his office."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does that help to refresh your memory about who the commander was?
10 A. Yes, correct, this is the person.
11 Q. And do you recall whether Slavko was present when you arrived, the
12 commander known as Slavko was present when you arrived at Mirkovci police
14 A. I think he was present there.
15 Q. Did you speak to him? Did you speak to Slavko?
16 A. Yes, I had a short conversation in connection with the person that
17 were brought in.
18 Q. Do you recall where you and the commander Slavko were when you
19 spoke with him?
20 A. In his office.
21 Q. And can you recall where the commander's office was or is at
22 Mirkovci police station?
23 A. It is located on the first floor to the right, straight down the
25 Q. And you said that you had a short conversation with Commander
1 Slavko. Can you recall what the two of you discussed?
2 A. We discussed about the persons who had been brought in and
3 detained, and I requested information about their whereabouts, where they
4 were, and I informed him that I have an order to see those persons and to
5 undertake further necessary measures as provided by law.
6 Q. And do you recall what the response of Commander Slavko was?
7 A. I believe he briefly responded that the persons are in the ground
8 premises, that I can do my work, and that he would secure everything he
9 needed to secure from his side.
10 Q. Did Commander Slavko -- can you recall whether Commander Slavko
11 told you about other persons who were speaking with the arrested persons?
12 A. Yes. He said that inspectors from the state security office had
13 already spoken to them.
14 Q. And after you had this discussion with Commander Slavko, what did
15 you do after that; can you recall?
16 A. I saw two persons, inspectors, allegedly from the state security,
17 whom I did not know. They gave me a list with the identification of the
18 persons that were held, and a list with cases with -- and a list with
19 objects that were found in their person.
20 Q. Mr. Toskovski, you said that these persons were inspectors
21 allegedly from the state security. Are you referring to the state
22 security bureau of the Ministry of Interior?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What made you think that these persons were from the state
25 security bureau?
1 A. This is how they identified themselves to me and told me they had
2 previously spoken with the persons that were detained. They established
3 their identity and that I can continue further.
4 Q. And by "you can continue further," just so that the record is
5 chore, does that mean you could continue to do your work there in the
6 Mirkovci police station. Is that the point of what they said?
7 A. Yes, absolutely this is so. I have my work to carry out, since
8 his scope of work had been completed.
9 Q. Mr. Toskovski, at some point did the gentlemen from the state
10 security bureau leave the Mirkovci police station?
11 A. I think, yes. I did not see them after that.
12 Q. All right. And after you no longer saw the gentlemen from state
13 security, do you recall what you did after your discussion with them? Do
14 you recall whether you contacted anyone?
15 A. I requested to go to the persons and to see the detained persons.
16 Q. When you say you requested to do this, can you recall who you made
17 this request to?
18 A. I did not mean this literally. I requested for uniform
19 assistance, a person accompanying me to the areas where the persons were
21 Q. Before you made that request, you recall whether you received any
22 more instructions from your superiors?
23 A. No, because I had still not been in contact with them after having
24 come to the station. I did not have sufficient information to hear my
25 superiors and to inform them of the situation.
1 Q. All right. And when you say you asked for -- you requested
2 uniform assistance, a person to accompany you to the areas where the
3 arrested persons were held, and did a uniformed policeman then accompany
4 you to that area?
5 A. Yes. This is the way that things are done in the station. A
6 uniformed police officer accompanies me.
7 Q. Was it your intention at that -- let me step back for a moment.
8 Was it your intention at that time to begin to interview the
9 arrested persons?
10 A. I had no intention. I was not thinking anything and I could not
11 think about anything until I had seen the persons.
12 Q. All right. So then where did you go? What part of Mirkovci
13 police station did you go to; can you recall?
14 A. Yes, I recall. Down the interior staircase, I went to the ground,
15 the underground part of the police station.
16 Q. And is there a particular room or part of the police station where
17 the arrested persons were?
18 A. The person accompanying me in the police station told me that the
19 persons are below and took me there. This --
20 Q. Do you recall ever going to a garage?
21 A. This is not a garage. Sometimes it is perhaps used for parking a
22 vehicle, because it is on the same level as the side part of the ground of
23 the police station.
24 Q. Well, if we can refer simply to the area where the arrested
25 persons were, who did you see when you arrived in that area; do you
2 A. I do not understand your question well enough.
3 Q. Did you go to the area where the arrested persons were being held,
4 on the ground floor at Mirkovci police station?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And who was present in that area? Can you recall who was there?
7 A. The persons who were detained were there and internal police
9 Q. Internal police security. What does that mean?
10 A. It means security from the police station, because these are the
11 inside, the internal premises of the police station. There was also
12 external security, security in the courtyard of the police station.
13 Q. And this internal security and the external security, this was
14 all -- was this performed by members of the police station, police
16 A. Yes, they were all in uniform.
17 Q. And when you arrived at this area, did you see the arrested
19 A. Yes, I saw them.
20 Q. And how did the arrested persons look when you saw them in the
21 garage; can you recall?
22 A. The detained persons had certain injuries on their faces. This is
23 why prior to undertaking any additional measure, I called my superiors.
24 Q. Which superiors would those be?
25 A. Krstevski and Josevski, both heads.
1 Q. And what did you discuss with Mr. Krstevski and Josevski, at that
3 A. I reached Krstevski, and I told him that I am requesting that an
4 ambulance be sent immediately in the police station so that to allow me to
5 take any further action onwards.
6 Q. And did you receive the permission that you asked for?
7 A. Yes. The chief Krstevski said that he would immediately organise
8 and dispatch such a vehicle.
9 Q. Very well.
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I note the time. Might this be an
11 appropriate time to take the first break?
12 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We adjourn now and resume at quarter
13 past 4.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, the Prosecution has prepared some
18 exhibits, copies of exhibits, that it will be showing to the witness
19 today, and we have copies for the Chamber and, I believe, for the Defence
20 as well. And if I could ask the court officer's assistance, please. If
21 can we can see what is Exhibit P257 on e-court, please.
22 And, Your Honours, this is at tab 2 of the binder that you've just
24 Q. And, Mr. Toskovski, if you can turn to tab 2 and underneath the
25 English version, you will find a version in your own language.
1 Before we took the break, Mr. Toskovski, you mentioned that you
2 were requesting an ambulance be sent immediately to the police station.
3 And this document in front of you, it says: "Official Note, 1187," it's
4 dated the 12th of August, 2001. It's submitted by Suza Zengovska from the
5 Cair internal affairs division, Mirkovci police station. And it's about
6 medical examination of detainees. And in the second paragraph, you'll see
7 that it talks about how the detainees at Mirkovci, ten persons, were
8 examined by the ambulance medical team and some light injuries were
10 Do you see that, Mr. Toskovski?
11 A. Yes, I see it.
12 Q. And then it goes on to say: "But the doctor said there was no
13 need for any of the persons to be transferred to a health centre or
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes, I see it.
17 Q. Is that your recollection of events when -- what happened when the
18 ambulance came?
19 A. Yes. But if you allow me to clarify it. This is a note that I
20 see for the first time and from it one can see that it is
21 Dr. Karamanovski, Gjorgi. During the night, ambulance cars arrived on
22 several occasions to the Mirkovci station so that we monitor the health
23 status of the detainees and so that we can, if needed, take certain
24 actions, if there is any need to have someone transferred to a medical
1 The first ambulance, when it arrived, on it was a female doctor.
2 And here I can see that this is a male doctor, a man.
3 Q. All right. Did I cut you off or is that enough?
4 A. That would be it. This is what I wanted to say, that it happened
5 several times that ambulance came.
6 Q. Tell me, why was it necessary for ambulances to come to the
7 Mirkovci police station that same night on several occasions?
8 A. I requested this, principally, in order to avoid some
9 misunderstandings later.
10 Q. If --
11 A. That no proper medical assistance was rendered, although the
12 visible injuries were in the nature of light injuries or at least this is
13 how they appeared, from visual observation. I'm not an expert in any
14 internal injuries that might have been there.
15 Q. So just to understand your testimony, when you saw these ten
16 detained persons at Mirkovci, and you noticed they had some light
17 injuries, and you requested that an ambulance come to examine these
18 persons and subsequently, the ambulance came with the female doctor,
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then that female doctor left. Is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But then you're saying several times during the night it was
24 necessary for ambulances to return and check these arrested persons again.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did anything that you're aware of happen to these ten detainees
2 between the first visit by an ambulance and a doctor and the subsequent
4 A. No. I state absolutely nothing has happened to them. They had
5 the same injuries as from the first moment when I arrived at the
7 Q. Then why did they have to be examined again and again?
8 A. That was done upon their request. Some of the persons requested
9 to be rendered medical assistance again, and this is why the ambulances
10 came several times.
11 Q. You said a couple of minutes ago, you told the Chamber it was due
12 to your request, that you made subsequent requests. So I'm trying to
13 understand what is correct.
14 A. Well, probably it was a misunderstanding. Of course, I was the
15 one calling for the ambulance, but that was done upon previous request of
16 some of the injured people when they insisted. So I was the one deciding
17 upon that and I would call an ambulance.
18 Q. Mr. Toskovski, can you look at the first paragraph, please, of
19 this document and I'll read it to you: "At 2000 hours on 12 August 2001,
20 ten persons, residents of the village of Ljuboten, were brought to the
21 Mirkovci police station after they had been taken into custody by a
22 special unit of the Ministry of Interior at the check-point in the village
23 of Ljubanci."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know which special unit or units are being -- of the
2 Ministry of the Interior that's being referred to here?
3 A. I don't know that.
4 Q. Did you ever speak to any members of such units who had taken
5 these ten persons into custody?
6 A. I spoke to the person who took them over and brought them to the
7 police station Mirkovci.
8 Q. Okay. I'm going to come to that in a minute.
9 Mr. Toskovski, eventually during the night of the 12th to the 13th
10 of August, did you speak to each of these ten arrested persons?
11 A. Yes, I spoke to them all.
12 Q. And do you recall whether you spoke to them individually or in
14 A. I spoke with each of them individually.
15 Q. And can you recall where you had these individual conversations
16 with each of the arrested persons?
17 A. I ran the interviews in a room adjacent to the one where the
18 detainees were held.
19 Q. So that was, again, down on the ground floor?
20 A. Yes, exactly.
21 Q. And can you recall why you decided to speak with these persons in
22 that room down on the ground floor rather than in some other part of the
23 police station?
24 A. Well, there were several reasons for it.
25 Firstly, it was in the immediate vicinity. It was more practical
1 and it was closer to have the interviews there.
2 Secondly, in the offices on the upper floor of the station there
3 were several authorised officers, and I didn't want to find myself in a
4 situation that some of the detainees of the persons brought in would --
5 would be -- I didn't want to allow for the possibility that any of
6 detainees is additionally injured on the road towards those offices.
7 Those are the main reasons.
8 Q. Well, do you recall what specifically you were worried about, in
9 terms of additional injuries? Do you recall what danger you were
10 concerned about?
11 A. Well, I was thinking in terms of general, unpredictable risk, in a
12 situation where there is a strong presence of police forces and the
13 situation was tense.
14 Q. You say there was a -- a strong presence of police forces and the
15 situation was tense. What were you worried about that might occur; can
16 you recall?
17 A. Well, I said I was thinking of prevention. I didn't want to allow
18 room for any additional incident.
19 Q. Would it help you to refresh your memory on this topic, if you
20 take a look at the statement you gave, Mr. Toskovski? Take a look at
21 paragraph 27, please, of your statement.
22 Do you see paragraph 27?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It says: "Being asked if I spoke with all of them," the arrested
25 persons "I say yes, I spoke with all of them, one by one. Near that
1 garage there is another room. At this place I spoke with them. We did
2 this for practical reason, not to bring them up. There was also a danger
3 that police officers would attack them. That is how I estimated the
4 situation; I have seen the anger of the policemen."
5 Do you see what I've just read?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Does that help you to refresh your memory about what your concerns
8 were on that evening, your professional concerns?
9 A. I just think that this is a different version of what I had
10 already said, a modification of phrasing maybe, in the translation.
11 Q. Is what you said here in paragraph 27 correct, Mr. Toskovski?
12 A. I think that this sentence is overly strong. I don't think I said
13 it like this, that they will be attacked. This is too strong a word, I'd
15 Q. In the English version it says: "There was also a danger that
16 police officers would attack them."
17 Would that be correct? Is that what you told the investigator
18 back in 2004?
19 A. No. I think there was a risk of some incidents. Attack is too
20 strong a word. I couldn't have said it like that.
21 Q. All right. Do you recall, Mr. Toskovski, whether anyone was with
22 you -- actually, let me step back for a moment.
23 You said there was a risk of some incidents that evening. Were
24 you concerned that -- about the risk that some of the arrested persons
25 might be injured or further injured, if such an incident occurred?
1 A. I don't understand the question. What are you referring to? What
2 kind of concern?
3 Q. What incidents were you worried about?
4 A. Well, incidents lighter in character than what is written here.
5 Attack may be --
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Maybe some attempt of something. This was my thinking.
8 Q. Okay. Do you recall when you were speaking with these ten
9 individuals one by one whether anyone was with you at the time; can you
10 recall that?
11 A. Well, I was accompanied by authorised officers, uniformed police
12 officers throughout the time.
13 Q. Okay. Before you began speaking with these arrested persons, do
14 you recall whether you received any information explaining the
15 circumstances of the arrests?
16 A. Yes. I received a verbal information, as I said, also from the
17 people in charge of state security and from the police station commander
18 that the persons who were there then were brought into custody from the
19 actual scene of the events in the village of Ljuboten.
20 Q. Did you receive any information that one or more of these persons
21 might have been in possession of weapons or ammunition when they were
23 A. Yes. I received such information, and I said earlier that there
24 was a list containing the identity of the persons and the objects found on
1 Q. And when you spoke to these arrested persons individually --
2 sorry, let me step back for a minute.
3 Apart from the conversation that you had and the list that you
4 received about the identity of the persons and the objects that were found
5 on them, apart from that did you ever receive any arrest reports regarding
6 the circumstances of the arrests?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When you spoke with these persons in that room near the area where
9 they were being held, approximately how long would you speak with them; do
10 you recall?
11 A. Do you mean with all of them or with each of them individually?
12 Q. I apologise. Thank you for setting me straight. My question
13 should be: For each individual discussion, approximately how long would
14 one last; do you recall?
15 A. Well, I recall that the interviews would last in the average 10 to
16 15 minutes, with each of the persons.
17 Q. All right. And did you confront these arrested persons with
18 information that weapons and ammunition had been seized from them when
19 they were arrested?
20 A. Yes. To each of them individually, I presented the information
21 that I had, and I asked them whether they were accurate.
22 Q. Did any of these individuals agree that this information was
24 A. No one agreed that the information was accurate. They all denied
25 it, although they did confirm that they have seen that there was combat
1 going on, but allegedly they themselves did not participate
2 in it.
3 Q. Do you recall whether you made a record of these interviews?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, if we can show the witness, please, what
6 is exhibit number P54, pages 105 to 106, and this is a document that's at
7 tab 3 of the binder that you have.
8 Q. If you could turn, Mr. Toskovski, to what is tab 3 in the
9 materials in front of you, to the Macedonian version, please.
10 Mr. Toskovski, this is an Official Note, number 535. At the top
11 it says: "Submitted by Toskovski, Blagoja," and then the date 13 August,
12 2001. Do you see that?
13 A. Yes, I see it.
14 Q. And is that your signature at the bottom of the second page?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So did you draft this Official Note?
17 A. Yes, I prepared that.
18 Q. So you prepared this note on the 13th of August, right? It would
19 have been a Monday.
20 A. Well, probably. I don't recall it now. Yes, the next day.
21 Q. And you see there the names there of ten persons there. In the
22 first paragraph I think there's a typo because it says: "I had official
23 conversations with nine persons who were withdrawn from Ljuboten village
24 by the security forces of the Republic of Macedonia."
25 A. Ten.
1 Q. Exactly. If you look two paragraphs below you use the number ten;
2 do you see that? The third paragraph, it says ten; do you see that?
3 A. In the first paragraph I see it is written ten.
4 Q. Then the English translation has an error. It should say ten.
5 Thank you for catching that.
6 The third paragraph says: "All of them, the above mentioned ten
7 persons were present in Ljuboten village during the combat activities of
8 the security forces and they were trying to pull out of the village in
9 direction to its exit. The above named persons stated that shots of
10 weapons could be heard everywhere in the village."
11 Then it says: "Actually, there was a fight between the security
12 forces of the Republic of Macedonia and the terrorist gangs."
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I see it.
15 Q. And then it says: "The persons above mentioned stated that they
16 noticed many terrorists fighting with fire-arms in their hands and that as
17 of themselves they did not take part in combat activities but they wanted
18 to run out of the Ljuboten village. Actually, some of them wanted to
19 surrender to the security forces because they were not men who would
20 participate in fights."
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes, I see it.
23 Q. Below that we see a list of weapons and ammunition that were found
24 at the site where the accused were apprehended, according to your note; do
25 you see that?
1 A. Yes, I see it.
2 Q. And then at the end of the list of weapons and ammunitions we see
3 a sentence that says: "Weapons and ammunition seized from the above
4 mentioned persons at the site where these were found was undertaken with a
5 certificate for seized objects."
6 So, is it correct to state that during your discussions with these
7 ten persons you also produced some seizure certificates related to the
8 weapons and the ammunition that were allegedly in the possession of these
10 A. Yes. I did issue certificates on seized objects.
11 Q. We'll look at a few of those in a few minutes.
12 Mr. Toskovski, do you know if anyone ever tested the weapons that
13 were allegedly seized at Ljuboten for fingerprints?
14 A. They were handed over to the crime technicians for further
15 investigation and analysis of any such prints, if they were to be found.
16 Q. Did you or anyone else direct that fingerprint samples be taken
17 from the hands of the ten persons who were detained at Mirkovci police
19 A. I did not order anything like this. It is possible that as part
20 of the procedure this was done when the paraffin glove was taken.
21 Q. But you're not aware of that?
22 A. I do not know about this. However, if I would be allowed to
23 clarify, even without taking a fingerprint there at the very place of
24 events, we have such prints for each in -- of each citizens in our ID list
25 of citizens. Therefore, the comparison can be done even without taking
1 additional fingerprints.
2 Q. All right. And do you have any knowledge whether such fingerprint
3 comparison between prints on the weapons and ammunition and the prints of
4 the arrested individuals was done?
5 A. This is obligatory when weapons are handed over for expertise. If
6 fingerprints are found, I do not know. However, this is an obligatory
7 procedure, and if professional experts had found such prints, surely they
8 would have made a comparison.
9 Q. All right. Because such a comparison would have assisted the
10 authorities in confirming whether someone had held a weapon or not. Is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes, this is exactly so. However, in this case, I think that such
13 prints were not found, due to many reasons.
14 Q. Mr. Toskovski, can you recall whether other persons who were
15 detained in and around Ljuboten on the 12th of August were interviewed at
16 other police stations?
17 A. Yes. There were persons in other police stations and all of those
18 who were under suspicions or for whom there was indication that they
19 directly took part in the fighting were interviewed and investigated.
20 Q. Can we turn now to what is tab 4 in your binders, Your Honour.
21 This is Exhibit P51, page 96.
22 If you turn to the document that's at tab 4, Mr. Toskovski.
23 A. I see it.
24 Q. This is an Official Note submitted by a man first initial B, last
25 name Dejan, submitted to the Ministry of Interior, Cair, on the 13th of
1 August, 2001. It's Official Note 536.
2 Mr. Toskovski, is this person known as -- with the last name
3 Dejan, was he a colleague of yours?
4 A. Yes, he was inspector in OVR Cair.
5 Q. The subject of this document is conducted official conversation
6 with persons taken from Ljuboten village. And it describes conversations
7 with nine persons at the OVR Kisela Voda, nine persons who been arrested
8 at the Ljuboten village by the joint security forces.
9 Mr. Toskovski, can you take a look at the third paragraph, please,
10 begins with the phrase "one could hear shootings."
11 Do you see that, third paragraph?
12 A. Yes, I see it.
13 Q. That paragraph reads: "One could hear shootings all over the
14 place and there had been fights between the police of the Republic of
15 Macedonia and terrorist gangs. The above mentioned persons stated that
16 they have noticed a lot of terrorists who had been fighting with weapons
17 in their hands whereas they have not participated in the clashes. But
18 they wanted to escape from the village or some of them wanted to surrender
19 to the security forces because they had not taken part in the fights."
20 Do you see what I just read to you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Would you agree with me that the content of the third paragraph in
23 Official Note 536 is quite similar to the content of the third paragraph
24 of Official Note 535 that you drafted?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Do you recall why the contents of these two Official Notes written
2 by two different inspectors are so similar? Do you recall why?
3 A. I don't know why, but I can guess, that perhaps the colleague who
4 is younger used my Official Note, having in mind the fact that the
5 statements were identical of all persons.
6 Q. You're saying that all persons, dozens and dozens of persons
7 arrested at Ljuboten on the 12th of August, gave identical information to
8 different police inspectors after their arrest. That's your testimony?
9 A. Well, the information given by these persons in the interviews
10 were, in principle, so to say, identical, not literally, but same
11 justifications, same words were used, that they do not know, that they
12 have not seen anything, that they had not taken part.
13 Q. Do you recall why it was important that this -- that these notes
14 be produced quickly? Do you recall why?
15 A. Because the time-frame is limited. The time-frame in which the
16 police forces have to finish their work and if they were to have proof,
17 evidence, to submit an adequate and necessary act, document.
18 Q. Do you recall being told by your superior that the content of the
19 conversations made at different locations with arrested persons should be
20 recorded as more or less the same. Do you recall that?
21 A. No. Nothing like that was said.
22 Q. Would you open up your statement, please, Mr. Toskovski, paragraph
23 49, please. Do you see paragraph 49?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Paragraph 49 says this: "Both documents have been produced on the
1 next day," that would be the 13th of August "upon the order of my superior
2 Krstevski like I mentioned before. He told us that there is not enough
3 time and that the content of the conversations made at three different
4 places should be more or less the same. I think my colleague simply took
5 over the content from my document. That is the reason why they are
6 looking all the same. All together, conversations have been made at
7 Mirkovci station, Kisela Voda and Karpos. On Monday evening, I also
8 visited the arrested persons at Karpos and Kisela Voda."
9 Does this help to you recall what the circumstances were in the
10 production of these Official Notes?
11 A. What -- I'm looking at what is written here. The order of my
12 superior, Krstevski, perhaps we misunderstood each other, did not pertain
13 to the notes themselves, how to write the notes. It pertained to the fact
14 of speeding up the procedure because we already had elements to submit
15 criminal report, criminal charges. This implies that we speed up the
16 writing of the notes, among them these two, and everything else which is
17 necessary to be written in this regard.
18 Q. So that's why your colleague Mr. Dejan, apparently, took the
19 contents of your note and placed it in his note, 536. Is that right?
20 A. I cannot claim this in his name. Perhaps this is so.
21 Q. You were working under a lot of pressure at that time, right?
22 A. I don't understand your question. What kind of pressure are you
23 referring to?
24 Q. I'm sorry. You had to work quickly. Is that correct?
25 A. Quickly, yes, we had to work quickly. But no one put any pressure
1 on me.
2 MR. SAXON: All right. Can we turn to tab 5 in your binder, Your
3 Honours. This is Exhibit P50 at page 122.
4 Q. If you turn to tab 5, Mr. Toskovski. And take a look, please, at
5 the Macedonian version. This is Official Note number 538, submitted by
6 Blagoja Toskovski on the 14th of August, 2001. Subject conducted official
7 conversation with persons taken from Ljuboten village. And here -- and if
8 you -- can you see your signature on the bottom, Mr. Toskovski?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this a note that you produced?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So this note records conversations that you had in Kisela Voda and
13 Karpos with eight persons who were arrested at Ljuboten village.
14 And take a look at the second sentence. In the middle -- excuse
15 me, the second paragraph, in the middle it says: "Whereas in relation to
16 the events, they stated the following. In the village one could hear
17 shootings all over the place. And the above mentioned persons had seen
18 that there had been fights between the police of Macedonia and terrorist
20 In the next paragraph it says: "The above mentioned persons
21 stated that they have also noticed a lot of terrorists who had been
22 shooting with weapons in their hands whereas they had not participated in
23 the clashes but they wanted to escape from the village after the security
24 forces had entered into it."
25 Do you see what I've just read to you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Would you agree that the content of Official Note 538, information
3 provided there allegedly by the interviewed persons is quite similar to
4 the information provided in notes 535 and 536?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And do the same reasons apply?
7 A. Well, yes, the same explanation I gave that the statements were
8 almost identical with the same explanation applies. This is why this is
10 Q. I see. Again, you interviewed each person alone. Is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Had you ever, in your experience as a police officer,
14 individual -- interviewed dozens of persons individually and received
15 exactly the same information?
16 A. I cannot recall.
17 Q. Can you recall, Mr. Toskovski, whether then criminal charges were
18 produced -- actually, let me -- let me step back for a moment.
19 Apart from the information that is recorded in these Official
20 Notes, Mr. Toskovski, did you get any other information on the 12th, 13th
21 of August, 14th of August, about the circumstances of the arrest of these
23 A. I obtained additional information from police officer, Sasa, I
24 believe, was his name, from police station Mirkovci who took these persons
25 over from the village.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. SAXON: Can we please turn to what is exhibit number P23,
3 please. It's tab 1 of your binders, Your Honour.
4 Q. Turn to tab 1. Not your statement, please, Mr. Toskovski. Tab 1
5 in that binder of materials that you've got.
6 MR. SAXON: And, I'm sorry, if this exhibit was exhibited under
7 seal, if it cannot be shown to the public, please.
8 Q. Mr. Toskovski, you see this is an Official Note submitted by
9 Mr. Sasa on the 12th of August, 2001. It's Official Note 1131. Do you
10 see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in it Mr. Sasa talks about how on the 12th of August, he took
13 over ten persons and some weapons and ammunition from the security forces
14 of Macedonia at Ljuboten village. And then below that we see the names of
15 the person who Mr. Sasa took over and the weapons and ammunition that
16 Mr. Sasa transported. Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So was this the information that you referred to a moment or two
19 ago, that you received from Mr. Sasa, the additional information that you
20 received about what had transpired at the arrest of these ten individuals?
21 A. I have spoken with Sasa several times, and after this Official
22 Note I had also had another conversation with him about the conversation.
23 It is not just this one then.
24 Q. All right. Those conversations, did they discuss the persons who
25 Sasa had transported on the 12th of August and the weapons and ammunition
1 that Sasa had transported? Was that what you discussed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did Mr. Sasa give you any other information that you can recall?
4 A. No. No additional information other than which we see here and
5 which he wrote.
6 Q. All right. Mr. Toskovski, can you recall whether criminal charges
7 were produced regarding the persons who were arrested at Ljuboten; for
8 example, the ten persons who you spoke with at Mirkovci police station.
9 Were there criminal charges drafted?
10 A. Yes, criminal charges were submitted.
11 Q. And who drafted them?
12 A. I prepared these.
13 Q. And can you recall whether you were given instructions to draft
14 the criminal charges in a particular way?
15 A. I don't understand the question. In which -- what do you mean
17 Q. Were you given any instructions related to the drafting, the
18 production of these criminal charges?
19 A. There's no need for any particular instructions to be given to me.
20 In accordance the legal regulations, I know how to prepare them. Perhaps
21 certain consultations can be carried out with the superior.
22 Q. And you would -- you would include in criminal charges information
23 that you had received up to that point about possible crimes that had
24 occurred. Is that -- is that the correct procedure?
25 A. Could you please clarify the question? I do not understand it.
1 Q. When you draft criminal charges, in those documents to support the
2 charges you would include information that you have received about the
3 events, about the crimes that occurred. Is that right? Is that your
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. SAXON: Can we take a look, please, at Prosecution Exhibit 31.
7 Your Honours, it's at tab 16 of the binder that you have.
8 Q. Mr. Toskovski, these are criminal charges from the department of
9 the interior for Cair, unit of operational affairs Cair, dated 13th of
10 August, 2001. And if you turn -- if you look at the first and second
11 pages, you'll see that the persons mentioned here, the ten persons, are
12 actually the same persons who you describe in your Official Note 535. Do
13 you see that?
14 A. Yes, I see it.
15 Q. So were these the criminal charges that you drafted with respect
16 to these ten persons who were first detained at Mirkovci police station?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If you take a look, please, at the bottom of the second page in
19 the English version, and it's also the bottom of page 2 in your version,
20 in the Macedonian version. There's a paragraph at the bottom that says
21 this -- and this is a description of the criminal act of terrorism or the
22 preparation for the criminal act of terrorism.
23 It says: "Namely, on the 12th of August, 2001 in the early
24 morning hours the identified persons prepared the fire-arm they had
25 provided previously and then in the time about 8.00 they were ready to
1 start a direct attack to the positions of the security forces of the
2 Republic of Macedonia who were deployed in the area of the village of
3 Ljuboten. These operations were undertaken with the aim to eliminate
4 security forces and to endanger the constitutional order and security of
5 the Republic of Macedonia."
6 Do you see that, what I just read to you, I guess, this paragraph
7 that you drafted on the 14th of August -- excuse me, the 13th of August?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Tell us please, this information that these ten persons were ready
10 to start a direct attack on the positions of the security forces of the
11 Republic of Macedonia with the goal to eliminate them, tell us, please,
12 where does this information come from?
13 A. It comes from other previous information.
14 Q. Well, Mr. Toskovski, you've outlined to us the previous
15 information that you've received. You've told us what the ten detained
16 persons told you, and you've told us about the information that you
17 received from Mr. Sasa. This information is not in Official Note 535. So
18 tell us, please, where did -- where does this information come from?
19 A. This information comes from the services for state security and
20 our police officers that obtained information on previous days.
21 Q. I see. Your police officers -- you say "our police officers who
22 obtained information on previous days." Which police officers obtained
23 this information?
24 A. I do not know their names.
25 Q. These unknown police officers, who did they speak to? Where did
1 they get their information?
2 A. With their operative positions for which, I think, the analytical
3 service had information.
4 Q. I see. And the information that these other police officers
5 obtained, where is it recorded prior to the 13th of August, 2001?
6 A. I do not know. But it should be in the analytics sector. That's
7 where they all flow in.
8 Q. Very well. Take a look, please, at the top of page 4 in the
9 English version, which is at page -- page 3 of the Macedonian version, top
10 of page 3. There's another paragraph. It says -- are you with me?
11 I'm sorry, this is tab 16, Mr. Toskovski, tab 16 of the same
12 document, your criminal charges.
13 Can you turn to page 3, please, in your version.
14 At the top of page 3 it says: "The afore-identified persons
15 continued with these operations until 12.00 when they deserted their
16 combat positions. And they left fire-arm and equipment, actually, they
17 threw away part of the equipment. All these, they did it in an order to
18 avoid liability for the terrorist activities they had committed."
19 Where does this information come from?
20 A. From security forces who were on the ground where the place --
21 where the events happened.
22 Q. You see, what you told us a short time ago is that prior to
23 drafting these notes, the only information you had received was
24 information from Mr. Sasa and the information that you received by
25 speaking with these ten persons. So how is it that you were able to put
1 this information in your criminal charges on the 13th of August?
2 A. In preparing the charges, all possible information are collected
3 and evidence are collected from all services, and are used in the
4 preparation of the charges.
5 Q. Well, that makes sense, except that you had told us earlier that
6 you had not received any additional information. So I'm just trying to
7 understand how this information found its way in the criminal charges.
8 A. Just previously you asked me about additional information from the
9 police officer Sasa, strictly from him, whether I received additional
10 information. This is why I said what I did.
11 Q. No. I asked you whether apart from that, apart from the
12 information from Sasa and from the information provided by the arrested
13 persons, whether you had received any additional information. At that
14 time your answer was no. Had you received further information before you
15 drafted these criminal charges?
16 A. Well, yes, this is a misunderstanding. I thought this only
17 pertained to Sasa, or so the question was formulated.
18 Q. All right. You had mentioned earlier that you had produced
19 seizure certificates or certificates for weapons and ammunition that had
20 been seized from the ten persons who were detained at Mirkovci. Do you
21 recall that?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. SAXON: Can we turn, please, to what is tab 6 in your binder,
24 Your Honour. This is Exhibit P46, page 46.
25 Q. Mr. Toskovski, do you see your signature at the bottom of this
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. It's a certificate on temporary seized possessions dated the 12th
4 of August, 2001. And this particular certificate relates to a gentleman
5 named Bajrami Nevaip. Is this one of the seizure certificates that you
6 produced during your discussion with this individual?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it says here that an automatic rifle of Chinese production was
9 seized. If you look at the first paragraph where the information about
10 the person is given, the name, date of birth, village of Ljuboten, et
11 cetera, it then says: "The authorised person," and there's a blank,
12 there's no name "seized the following possessions in temporary custody."
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So you don't know who seized this weapon, do you?
16 A. I don't understand the question.
17 Q. Well, the name of the person, the name of the authorised person
18 who seized the possession is not -- is not written here; do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So can we take from that that at the time you didn't know who
21 specifically seized this weapon, did you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You did not. You did not know the person. Is that correct?
24 A. According to the information I received at Mirkovci, from the
25 people, from the state security and from Sasa, it all pointed to the
1 notion that it was the security forces who seized this specific weapon and
2 where and how I --
3 Q. All right. I'm sorry, I cut you off. You meant to say where and
4 how I? Can you finish the sentence, please.
5 A. Where precisely, at what location in the village, I don't
7 Q. And you also don't know who precisely took possession of the
8 weapon, do you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. So down below we also see it says: "The listed possessions are
11 subject of," and below we see what is supposed to be written there is the
12 grounds for which objects were seized. And there's nothing written there.
13 And I just wanted to explore this with you, Mr. Toskovski.
14 So at the time when this seizure certificate was produced you
15 didn't know the circumstances, the specific circumstances that led to the
16 seizure of this weapon, did you?
17 A. I knew the specific circumstances. I didn't know the persons.
18 Q. Well, all right. You see, you didn't write anything about the
19 specific circumstances in this section. Can you tell us, please, now what
20 were the specific circumstances in which a rifle was seized by Mr. -- from
21 Mr. Nevaip Bajrami, if you know?
22 A. I was given information that it was done at the actual scene of
23 the events, of the combat activities in the village.
24 Q. But you have no more information than that.
25 A. No.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. SAXON: If we can turn now, please, to what is tab 14. And,
3 Your Honours, this is it Prosecution Exhibit 30.
4 Q. This document, Mr. Toskovski, is another certificate on temporary
5 seized possessions dated the 12th of August, 2001. Do you see your
6 signature there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you produce this certificate?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This is a certificate that, on the 12th of August, ten bullets for
11 an automatic rifle were seized from someone named Bajrami Mevludin. Do
12 you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Again, the authorised person who seized the following possessions
15 is not named there. Does that mean you don't know who precisely seized
16 this ammunition?
17 A. I don't know. The same as in the previous case.
18 Q. And down below where it says the stated possessions are subject of
19 and the grounds on which the objects were seized, again, there is nothing
20 written there. Does this mean that you had no precise information as to
21 the circumstances in which these bullets were seized from this individual?
22 A. I had no information, at that moment.
23 Q. Do you recall whether the persons whose names -- whose signatures
24 appear on these certificates, do you recall whether each person willingly
25 signed them?
1 A. Yes, they willingly did.
2 Q. Would it help you to refresh your memory about this point by
3 looking at your statement?
4 Is that a yes?
5 A. Let me try.
6 Q. Take a look at paragraph 40 of your statement, please.
7 Do you have paragraph 40 in front of you? Mr. Toskovski, do you
8 have paragraph 40 --
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. In the middle of paragraph 40 you say: "The only documents which
11 was signed by these persons in my presence was documents that stated that
12 objects have been seized by them. These were stating that the weapons and
13 ammunition is taken from them. I asked them where these weapons are from.
14 They deny that they were belonging to them. But they were signing the
15 documents that the weapons were seized. They don't have to sign, in the
16 case they would refuse, the police officer would sign."
17 In this situation, did any of these persons refuse to sign?
18 A. No. They did sign all the documents themselves.
19 Q. My question is -- let me state my question a bit differently.
20 Did each of these persons willingly sign their certificate?
21 A. Each of the persons signed the document willingly. Just one
22 clarification, if I may. As you said earlier, if some of the persons does
23 not sign the document, then it would be the police officer signing the
24 document. That is a technical mistake; it is not the police officer
25 signing. I had clarified in that interview that there is a legal
1 possibility for the authorised officer who is running the interview if
2 there are reliable elements, evidence, that the object does belong to the
3 suspect, or that it is found on the suspect, and the person refuses to
4 sign the certificate for temporary seizure of objects, then the authorised
5 officer can enter a note clarifying that the person refuses to sign the
7 Q. Thank you for that clarification. But in this case, what you're
8 telling us is that each of the ten persons that you interviewed willingly
9 signed their certificate. That's right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you think of a good reason why someone would first tell you
12 that they did not have weapons in their possession but then would sign a
13 certificate saying that they had weapons or ammunition in their
14 possession, why they would do that willingly?
15 A. After you present them -- after I had presented the arguments to
16 them, they had signed. Am I clear, or should I clarify?
17 Q. Yes. Please clarify.
18 A. During that brief interview, I explained to them that there are
19 arguments and which are those arguments, that they were found on the spot
20 that they themselves were found there, that they were handed over from
21 there together with the weapons, that the paraffin glove test was positive
22 for them, after which, without any discussion, they would sign.
23 Q. Mr. Toskovski, are you -- is it your testimony that you told these
24 arrested persons in the early morning hours of the 13th of August that
25 paraffin glove test results had been returned and that they were positive?
1 Is that your testimony?
2 A. I do not remember actually whether I said something like that to
3 them on the 13th, but on the 12th, during the interview, I might have
4 pointed this to them, because we already had the initial information.
5 Then I had indicated this to them.
6 Q. You had information that the so-called paraffin glove test had
7 been performed, right? Because those tests --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Those tests were performed on the night of the 12th and 13th. Is
10 that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And are you saying in the early morning hours of the 13th, you
13 already had the results of those tests?
14 A. I just received them over the phone. I still hadn't have them in
16 Q. Very well.
17 MR. SAXON: Can we please go to --
18 Q. And it's your testimony that although these persons told you that
19 they weren't involved in combat and did not have weapons, that they --
20 upon listening to your arguments, they decided to sign these certificates?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. SAXON: Can we turn, please, to what is Exhibit P261. This is
23 tab 17 of your binder, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Toskovski, this is an Official Note, number 537. It is
25 submitted by you. Do you see your signature at the bottom?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It's dated the 14th of August, 2001. And it's called: "Subject
3 report on a deceased person."
4 Do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it's talking about a gentleman named Atulla Qaili who was one
7 of those ten persons detained at Mirkovci on the evening of the 12th of
8 August. And it says in the second paragraph: "He was held at the
9 Mirkovci police station from 0200 hours on the 13th. On the same day, at
10 about 0430 hours, as his health condition deteriorated, the duty officer
11 at the Mirkovci police station called the ambulance and he was taken to
12 the Skopje city hospital."
13 Then there's a sentence that says this is: "On the 13th of
14 August, 2001, the Skopje city hospital informed us that the aforementioned
15 person had died during the day."
16 Do you see that, Mr. Toskovski?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you do any investigation into the cause or the circumstances
19 of the death of Mr. Atulla Qaili?
20 A. Could you please repeat it? I didn't hear the question.
21 Q. Sorry. Did you do any investigation into the cause or the
22 circumstances of the death of Mr. Atulla Qaili?
23 A. We, and among those we, I myself, with the authorised officers
24 have the duty to always work on clarifying the cases.
25 Since a death had occurred in this specific case, the homicide
1 department would be involved.
2 Q. Do you know what steps, if any, the homicide department took to
3 investigate the cause or circumstances of the death of Atulla Qaili?
4 A. I don't know specifically nor in detail.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, is that a convenient time?
6 MR. SAXON: It is, Your Honour. It was my goal to finish my
7 direct examination with this witness, but I need another five to ten
8 minutes, so if that's all right.
9 JUDGE PARKER: We allowed you to run on, thinking you were
10 following a particular line. In retrospect, that was not so, but that is
11 why we stretched this session. We will resume at a quarter past six.
12 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 --- Recess taken at 5.42 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON:
17 Q. Mr. Toskovski, before we took the last break, I had asked you some
18 questions about when you received results of the so-called paraffin glove
19 tests for gunpowder analysis. Do you recall that?
20 A. You're referring to the written text or ...
21 Q. I'm just asking you, do you recall the discussion that you and I
22 had some moments ago.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall receiving some information that the results of the
25 tests for the ten persons who were detained in Mirkovci could not be
1 produced because of contamination. Do you recall that?
2 A. No, I don't know of any such thing.
3 Q. All right.
4 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is P150, page-- I
5 think that's probably a mistake. It should be P50. Yes, P50, page 135.
6 This is at tab 20 of your binders, Your Honour.
7 Q. This is a report submitted by you, Mr. Toskovski, on the 31st of
8 August, 2001, number 593.
9 Do you see your signature at the bottom?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It's a report on the events and undertaken measures at the area of
12 Ljuboten village in the period between 10 August 2001 till 13 August 2001.
13 And it contains some information about the events from 10, 11, and
14 12 of August. And then at the bottom it says: "In the military
15 activities, the joint security forces had destroyed the terrorist groups
16 who withdrew from the village towards Tanusevci and Kumanovo." And then
17 it says: "Some of the terrorists were throwing weapons and escaping
18 towards Radisani and Skopje." And then it says: "In total, 70 persons
19 were arrested."
20 Do you see that, Mr. Toskovski?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you recall why you drafted this report?
23 A. Yes, this report was prepared by me at the request of the
24 superiors in connection with the investigation that was led afterwards for
25 the events and activities of the police forces.
1 Q. When you say "the events and the activities of the police forces,"
2 you're referring to the activities of the police forces at Ljuboten on the
3 12th of August?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And this investigation that you referred to, was it part -- was it
6 due to a committee that Minister Boskoski had established at that time, to
7 investigate these activities?
8 A. Yes. The information was requested about this, and I believe in
9 the meantime it served for additional information to the Court.
10 Q. Okay. The information contained in your report, where did this
11 information come from?
12 A. Which information are you referring to?
13 Q. Well, all of it. I mean, where did you get the information that
14 you put in this report. What were your sources?
15 A. It was my investigation after the events. That is to say,
16 accruing and collecting all data and information that we had. That is to
17 say, to which I was able to get.
18 Q. Did you speak to any of the police officers who were active in
19 Ljuboten on the 12th of August?
20 A. I do not understand the question.
21 Q. Did you -- to gather the information that you put into this
22 report, did you speak to any of the police officers who were active in the
23 village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August?
24 A. I spoke with Sasa. As for others, I did not do so. I used data
25 from official records.
1 Q. Okay. So you didn't speak to a gentleman named Johan Tarculovski?
2 A. Not at all. I did not speak to him at all.
3 Q. Did you speak to a gentleman by the name of Zoran Jovanovski, also
4 known as Bucuk?
5 A. I have not spoken to such a person.
6 Q. Okay. Did you find in the -- apart from speaking with Sasa and
7 looking and -- from the data from the official records that you reviewed
8 before you wrote this report, did you see any information indicating that
9 some of the police officers in Ljuboten on the 12th of August might have
10 overstepped their powers a little bit? Used --
11 A. I have not seen such an information.
12 Q. All right. Any information that -- that the police officers
13 active in Ljuboten on the 12th of August might have mistreated some
15 A. I have not seen such information.
16 Q. And apart from this report, did you send any further reports to
17 your superiors to be sent to this committee as part of this investigation?
18 A. I think, as far as I can recall, I did not prepare another report.
19 Q. Okay. And did your superiors give you any comments when you sent
20 your superiors this particular report?
21 A. No, there were no comments.
22 Q. And did any members of the investigation committee established by
23 Minister Boskoski, did any of them speak to you personally or ask you for
24 information related to the events in Ljuboten?
25 A. They did not talk to me personally. However, this information was
1 requested from my superior, from me, that it be submitted to the
3 Q. And after you submitted this information, you received no further
4 comment about it from anyone?
5 A. In what sense do you mean? I do not understand.
6 Q. In any sense. Did any superior of yours in the Ministry of
7 Interior talk to you about the report that you had sent to them?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And did any of your superiors in the Ministry of the Interior
10 request you to look for additional information?
11 A. Without requesting it from me, I tried and all colleagues tried to
12 get to additional, valid information that would clarify the case in full.
13 However, we could not get to such information.
14 Q. Do you think that speaking with the police officers who were
15 involved in the operation in Ljuboten on the 12th of August might have
16 helped you to clarify the situation, to clarify the case in full?
17 A. I think this is what the committee did. This was within its
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I have no further questions at this
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while we put up the
23 roster, I would ask the assistance of the court usher to help us to
24 distribute to the Court, to the -- to my learned colleagues the files
25 which -- with the documents which I intend to show to the witness.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Toskovski. My name is Edina
4 Residovic, and together with my colleague Guenael Mettraux, I am defending
5 Mr. Ljube Boskoski.
6 Before -- before I proceed with putting some questions to you,
7 which is possible to do in the course of this day, and others will follow
8 in the course of next day, I would ask you for the following. You will
9 probably understand the questions which I'm asking, and I understand the
10 answers which you provide in the Macedonian language. However, both my
11 questions and your answers must be translated. Therefore, -- and so the
12 Honourable Court can follow as well as other colleagues in the courtroom.
13 So I would ask you when you hear my question that you wait until it is
14 translated and that -- respond only then.
15 In this manner, we will be best able to assist Their Honours and
16 the colleagues which are listening to this.
17 Do you understand me?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You are by profession you are a lawyer?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You have graduated the faculty of law in 1984 in Skopje. Is this
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The question of my learned colleague, you said that from 1986 you
25 worked and are working in the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of
1 Macedonia. Is this correct?
2 A. Yes, this is correct.
3 Q. Before the work you worked in 2001, about which you have already
4 testified, you worked in the unit for issuing ID and passports, and as of
5 1989, you work in the crime police. Is this correct?
6 A. Yes, it is correct.
7 Q. Therefore, one could say that in 2001, you already had 15 years of
8 experience of working in the Ministry of Interior. Is this correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in the unit of -- in the police -- in the interior in Cair,
11 you were considered as inspector with substantial professional experience.
12 Is this correct?
13 A. Yes, it is correct.
14 Q. The question of the learned colleague you have explained that your
15 concrete tasks and duties in 2001 were to work and to discover criminal
16 acts against property, forgery, and other criminal -- and other property
17 crimes. Is this correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You had the status of authorised person. Is this correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The competency of the Ministry of Interior in the Republic of
22 Macedonia was established by law, although I would say that this is above
23 all the Law on Internal Affairs, and in connection with the work which you
24 carried out, and you carried out your duties and tasks this was also
25 established by the Law on Criminal Procedure. Is this correct?
1 A. Yes, it is correct.
2 Q. In addition to the law, would you agree with me that the books of
3 rules and manuals, such as the Book of Rules on the organisation and
4 organisational structure about the reserves of the police, awarding of
5 weapons and so forth, that all of these secondary acts adopted by the
6 government and some of them the minister, in effect, established the
7 concrete duties and tasks, competencies of various organisational
8 structures and also other questions, issues which are of importance for
9 understanding the competencies and the tasks which you carried out. Is
10 this correct?
11 A. Yes, it is correct.
12 Q. These documents, in effect, established and determined which tasks
13 are carried out by the Ministry of Interior on the level of the republic,
14 that is to say the state, and which tasks of the bodies of the Ministry of
15 Interior are carried out by regional organisational structures and bodies
16 of the Ministry of Interior. Is this correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. These, so to say, the centralised organs of the ministry in the
19 Republic of Macedonia in 2001, they were founded or they were, in effect,
20 sectors of the Ministry of Interior where most of the tasks of the bodies
21 of the Ministry of Interior were carried out. Is this correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Of the Ministry of Interior of Cair belonged to the sector of the
24 interior of the city of Skopje. Is it correct that the sector of the
25 interior of the city of Skopje had a larger number of organisational
1 structures within the sector itself and a larger number of units of
2 internal affairs in the municipality of the city of Skopje?
3 A. Yes, five.
4 Q. Your unit of internal affairs in Cair, as well as the other units
5 in other municipalities - you said there were five - composed of sections
6 for operative work, your unit had two police stations, Cair and Police
7 Station Mirkovci, and within the units there were also sections for
8 analytics which in one of your answers you already mentioned. Is this the
9 organisation of your unit?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You personally, you worked in the section for operative works. Is
12 this correct?
13 A. It is correct.
14 Q. And in this section, crime police work was carried out, or, to be
15 more precise, tasks of discovering crimes and perpetrators.
16 A. It is correct.
17 Q. To this part where you said consisted -- comprised your immediate
18 task, detection and prevention of property crime. In the section, there
19 were other parts which related to bodily harm or to homicides or
20 delinquency, juvenile delinquency. You mentioned the colleague, the
21 police -- the person who you met in the Police Station Mirkovci that she
22 worked in this kind of issues; then, traffic misdemeanours. There were
23 many tasks which your colleagues carried out within the sector. Is this
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. If I understood correctly, your immediate superior
2 Mr. Ljupce Josevski was, in effect, the head of this operative sector,
3 that is to say, all inspectors who worked in the area of detection of
4 crimes. Is this correct?
5 A. It is correct.
6 Q. Also I would ask you to tell me whether I understood you correctly
7 that Ljube Krstevski was, in effect, the head or the chief of the overall
8 unit where police stations, that is to say, Cair and Police Station
9 Mirkovci, the unit of analytics and your operative section also belonged.
10 Is this correct?
11 A. Yes, it is correct.
12 Q. When I asked you just a while back whether it is correct that
13 these tasks which you carry out, the real tasks and competencies
14 established by Book of Rules and manuals, I would ask now that we look at
15 this document which is found in tab 2.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And this is Exhibit 1D107, page of
17 the Macedonian version, 1D4375 -- 71, my apologies, while the English is
19 Q. Do you see this document in front of you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell me, do you recognise this document?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And is that the Book of Rules on the organisation and operation of
24 the Ministry of Interior that was in force in 2001, taking into
25 consideration some amendments to it done throughout the year. Was that
1 the document on which you based your duties?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the final page of this
4 document, that is the page 18. 1D4389 is the Macedonian version; and in
5 the English version, that is the page 1D4413.
6 Have you found this page?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And can I draw your attention to the last element in this Book of
9 Rules. You will see then that on the one side there is the number under
10 which this document, Book of Rules is issued and the date, 26th of
11 January, 2001, and on the other side, there is the signature of the
12 minister of the interior who adopted, who passed this Book of Rules.
13 Tell me, please, do you know -- actually, was Dosta Dimovska
14 assigned -- who has signed on this Book of Rules, was she also a minister
15 of the interior during one part of 2001?
16 A. Yes, she was minister.
17 Q. And if I were to tell that you this Book of Rules as well as most
18 of the general acts that you based your work upon in 2001, as well as the
19 Law on Internal Affairs and the Law on Criminal Procedure practically
20 passed earlier and most of the regulation was in force for a number of
21 years before Mr. Boskoski was appointed minister of the interior. Is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the Article 8 of this same
25 Book of Rules. That is found in the English, page 4401; while in
1 Macedonian 1D4379.
2 Do you see this page now? That is the page 8.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I would like to ask you to look at the Article 8 first. And I
5 will read to you the first sentence which says: "For the conducting of
6 internal affairs on the territory of the Republic of Macedonia, the
7 following regional organisational forms of the ministry are established,"
8 and 11 such sectors are enumerated.
9 Do you see this?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is my understanding correct if I say that these Articles precisely
12 corroborate what you stated before, that the carrying out of all works or
13 most of the works and affairs of the Ministry of Interior is done within
14 the sectors?
15 A. Yes, this is clear.
16 Q. If you look now at the Article 9, you see there that the sector
17 for internal affairs of the city of Skopje is the subject and its
18 organisation and competences as well.
19 I would like to ask you to look at -- you said that you were aware
20 of this Book of Rules to see that in the first part, until item 12, that
21 is actually the enumeration of the internal organisational forms within
22 the sector for the city of Skopje, and then from item 13 to item 17,
23 enumerated are the departments for internal affairs. Actually, the five
24 departments that you spoke about, that you testified about earlier,
25 departments or units?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And in this last subitem, 17, you recognise your department for
3 internal affairs, Cair, and you stated it comprised precisely those units
4 that are enumerated here. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if we look now at the Article 9 as a whole, would it be
7 correct for me to say that actually all affairs of the bodies of the
8 interior in the city of Skopje were divided to affairs carried out by the
9 sector itself and affairs carried out by departments of internal affairs.
10 Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And briefly again in relation to this, is it correct that
13 practically all these affairs that we discussed from the beginning of my
14 cross-examination of you are actually affairs that fall within the realm
15 of affairs of public security?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And within the Ministry of the Interior there was also state
18 security, isn't it so, that has a special organisation?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. These affairs of public security that were part of your tasks,
21 wasn't it so in the municipality of Cair, were actually carried out
22 through the uniformed police or to -- through the criminalistic police.
23 Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When asked by my learned colleague you briefly gave some data
1 about the tasks you performed and you repeated those when asked by me, and
2 I would ask you now a general question.
3 Is the criminalistic police otherwise the one that carried out
4 tasks related to prevention of crime, detection and apprehension of
5 perpetrators, and also carried out other tasks that were otherwise
6 prescribed in the Law on Internal Affairs?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in relation to this
9 answer and for the purposes of the transcript, I would like to state that
10 these tasks are described in the Article 12 of the Law on Internal
11 Affairs, which is the Exhibit P86.
12 Q. I would like to ask you now, since we took a look at this Book of
13 Rules and probably this is where we will end tomorrow -- today.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I would like to ask to you look at the provision of Article 21 and
17 22. It is found at page 16, 1D4387. And the English text is 1D4410. And
18 the -- I would like to draw your attention to the first paragraph of
19 Article 21 which states that certain organisational forms within the
20 ministry and within the public security bureau as an organ within the
21 structure of the ministry are headed by heads at a job and the title of
22 whom is identified in the Law on Organisational Structure of the ministry,
23 depending on the organisational form where they belong.
24 Is your understanding as well, Mr. Toskovski, that each
25 organisational form, and therefore your department for internal affairs,
1 was actually managed by a head, whose tasks and responsibilities were
2 established by this Law?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And if you look at the Article 22 on the following page, you will
5 see here that the heads of the organisational forms that are within the
6 scope of another organisational form are directly responsible to the head
7 of the respective organisational form. The employees direct performers
8 are responsible before their immediate head and the head of the
9 organisational form to which they belong for the correct execution of
10 their works and tasks.
11 Is such definition of the responsibility of actual responsibility
12 of the direct performers and their heads something that was actually
13 implemented in the practice, at the time when you worked at the department
14 Cair, and especially during 2001?
15 A. Yes, that's how it was done.
16 Q. And apart from on the basis of the law, you also based your work
17 on the annual and monthly plans that the unit adopted independently, and
18 that was the absolute responsibility, legally prescribed responsibility of
19 the department and the sector for the internal affairs. Isn't it so?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And to carry out your legal responsibilities, you didn't need any
22 particular orders from the ministry or the Minister. Is that so?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And within the line of command, the entire structure of the
25 criminalistic police that you belonged to was headed by the
1 under-secretary for criminalistic police and the bureau for public
2 security actually completed the actual, the real competence of the
3 Ministry of the Interior. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, this is correct.
5 Q. And, finally, considering that those were the organisational forms
6 that actually carried out the competences of the Ministry of Interior
7 prescribed by the law, I will finally ask you: Is it correct that, with
8 regards to certain issues as specified in Article 25, it was possible to
9 establish special committees or groups, task forces of permanent or
10 provisional nature, tasked with certain issue, but such committees or
11 groups could never replace the competences of the bodies, competences that
12 belonged to the bodies under the law?
13 A. Yes, this is correct.
14 Q. So no committee could remove or modify the actual competences that
15 you had as authorised officer or your head, who was the responsible person
16 for the Cair department?
17 A. Yes, this is so.
18 Q. And such committees could not be a substitute for the work of the
19 prosecutor's office or the courts to whom such competences and duties
20 absolutely belong, as prescribed by the law?
21 A. Yes, this is so.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much. And I
24 thank you for allowing me to complete with this Book of Rules.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We adjourn now for the evening,
1 resuming tomorrow morning at 9.00.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of
4 August, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.