1 Wednesday, 5 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning. Today Judge Parker is not
7 able to sit, so in application of Rule 15 bis, Judge Thelin and I will sit
8 in this session. We hope Judge Parker will be able to sit tomorrow, but
9 today it will be Judge Thelin and myself.
10 Good morning, sir. May I please ask you to read the affirmation
11 that is on the card held in front of you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: FATMIR KAMBERI
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you. You may sit down.
17 MS. REGUE: Good morning, Your Honours. For the record the
18 Prosecution is called witness Fatmir Kamberi
19 Examination by Ms. Regue:
20 Q. Mr. Kamberi, do you recall providing an information to the Office
21 of the Prosecutor in 2004?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you recall meeting with a lady from the registry who certified
24 your statement in 2005?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you recall providing additional information that same day which
2 was also certified?
3 A. Yes.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters wish to note that the witness
5 is answering in Macedonian so perhaps he is listening to interpretation in
6 the Macedonian language. If that could be checked, please.
7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I'm sorry, sir. It appears that you are
8 listening to the interpretation --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Can the usher perhaps take care of that?
11 MS. REGUE:
12 Q. Are you receiving the translation in Albanian, Mr. Kamberi, now?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Mr. Kamberi, before coming here have you had the
15 opportunity to read both documents?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Are you satisfied that its content is correct and accurate?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, the Prosecution will seek to tender the
20 statement of 2004 and the addendum of 2005 according to Rule 92 bis.
21 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P426, Your Honours.
23 MS. REGUE: The witness, Fatmir Kamberi, is a Ljuboten resident of
24 Albanian ethnicity. On the 10th of August, 2001, the Macedonian forces
25 began shelling and shooting Ljuboten from positions in the mountains. On
1 the 11th, there was occasional gun-fire. At around 2.00 a.m., on the
2 morning of the 12th, the witness observed three to four uniformed persons
3 in the yard of the church carrying weapons and moving between the church
4 and the Macedonian houses in Ljuboten. At around 4.00 a.m., the witness
5 went to Rami Jusufi's house to have coffee. He left approximately one
6 hour later. Around 8.00 a.m. on the 12th of August, the witness observed
7 intensive shooting coming from the church and elsewhere. He was informed
8 that the army and the police were entering their houses. In the afternoon
9 women, children and the elderly began fleeing the village. The witness
10 remained in Ljuboten. On the 13th of August, the witness saw a number of
11 houses burn down and evidence of hand-grenades, automatic fire and a
12 container of gas in the vicinity.
13 On the 14th of August, the witness observed the house of an ethnic
14 Macedonian burning.
15 On the 15th of August, his own house was burned.
16 In the witness addendum given in November 2005, Mr. Kamberi stated
17 that a colleague of his who was also a relative of Mr. Tarculovski told
18 him about the speech made by Mr. Tarculovski during the funeral on the
19 12th -- on the 11th of August at Ljubanci of the policemen killed in the
20 mine incident the previous day.
21 Johan Tarculovski said that there was an order from
22 Boris Trajkovski and that he would take care of the people of Ljuboten the
23 following day.
24 Now, if we could please call 65 ter 184, page 3, ERN N000-7879.
25 Q. Mr. Kamberi, in paragraph 20 of your statement, you mention that
1 on Monday, the 13th of August, you saw houses from your neighbourhood burn
2 and you indicated them in a document with letter C. We have now the
3 document in front of us. Is the handwriting of the names and also the
4 signature and the date below your handwriting?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you please read out loud for the record the names of the
7 properties that you wrote down starting from the upper part left to right
8 and then going to the bottom part, please?
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 Q. Could you please do it.
11 A. Agim Jusufi, Jusufi Rashit, Xhabir Rashiti, Qenan Jusufi,
12 Xhevdet Jusufi, Nazmi Jusufi, Sabit Jusufi, Rami Jusufi, Halim Duraku.
13 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I seek to tender this document, this
14 photo into evidence.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P427, Your Honours.
17 MS. REGUE:
18 Q. You mention in your statement that you saw these houses burn on
19 the 13th. What did you see in the same neighbourhood on the 12th of
20 August, the day before?
21 A. On the 12th of August, the houses were burned. It was on the 12th
22 of August.
23 Q. And what did you see, if anything, in that area, coming from that
25 A. On the 12th of August, from afar, I saw the smoke coming. I
1 didn't know which houses were being burned.
2 Q. Thanks. In paragraph 21 of your statement and paragraph 22, you
3 mention two more houses which were burned on the 14th of August; the house
4 of Aleksandar Doskovski and your own house on the 15th of August. Aside
5 from these two houses, do you know any other house which was set on fire
6 which was burned after the weekend 10 to 12 August 2001?
7 A. No. Only these two houses.
8 Q. Now if we could please call 65 ter 199.22, ERN N004-4729. It's
9 the photo A depicted in page 9 of the Court binder.
10 And before we're waiting for the photo, Mr. Kamberi, you mention
11 in paragraph 10 of your statement that at 2.00 a.m. in the early morning
12 of Sunday, 12th of August, you saw uniformed people around the yard of the
13 church but you were not sure what kind of uniforms they were. Were you
14 able to see which colour those uniforms were?
15 A. I was about 25 metres away. It was 2.00 a.m. It was night, of
16 course. It was dark. But because I was close enough, I could see that it
17 was the green colour of the army, of the Macedonian army. I can't give
18 you the hue but it was green. Whether it was lighter or darker, I don't
19 know. But it was a military colour.
20 Q. Thanks, Mr. Kamberi. That's enough. Now, if you could look,
21 please, at the photo. Are you able to see here the church and if we could
22 have, please, the usher's assistance?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. REGUE: With the assistance of the gentleman, if could you
25 please take the pen and draw a cross where you see the church that you saw
1 those uniformed men at 2.00 on Sunday and write number 1.
2 A. The church? Or the yard of the church, which one?
3 Q. First a cross in the church and write number one next to the
4 cross, please.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Now, if you could please, draw a circle around the yard around the
7 area where you saw those uniformed men walking around?
8 MS. REGUE: For the record the witness has drawn a circle on the
9 upper left side of the photo.
10 Q. And now, Mr. Kamberi, do you see the house of Rami Jusufi in this
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you please also draw a cross and write number 2 where this
14 house is located.
15 A. [Marks]
16 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, I will seek to tender this photo into
18 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P428, Your Honours.
20 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, no further questions. No further
22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you. Thank you very much.
23 You will be asked now a few questions by the Defence.
24 Ms. Residovic.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kamberi.
3 A. Good morning to you.
4 Q. Mr. Kamberi, my name is Edina Residovic and together with my
5 colleague Guenael Mettraux I appear on behalf of Mr. Ljube Boskoski.
6 I will ask you, Mr. Kamberi, to wait for my question to be
7 interpreted and answer only then, although you maybe understand my
8 language as well, so Their Honours and the colleagues in the courtroom are
9 able to hear your answer and my question, and in this way, we will best
10 assist the Court to follow your testimony.
11 Did you understand this, Mr. Kamberi?
12 A. I do understand.
13 Q. Thank you. You were born in Ljuboten and you live there. Is that
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. In 2001, you lived with your wife and three children. Is that
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. You graduated from the secondary school in Skopje and you
20 worked as a salesman for seven years in a textile shop. Is that correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Then you opened your own shop and your shop was at Bit Pazar, not
23 far from the butcher, Nebush. Is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. In this private shop, you worked until 2001.
1 A. This is not the truth.
2 Q. Could you please tell me for how long did you work in your private
4 A. In 1999, I closed my company. In 2001, this is not the truth. It
5 was 1999.
6 Q. Thank you for your clarification.
7 Is it correct that from 2003 until 2006 you worked in a post
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Why did you leave that employment in the post office?
11 A. I was there only under contract. I had a contract.
12 Q. Tell me, is it correct that there was a suspicion that you
13 embezzled some money, was that the reason or was the reason that your
14 contract had expired? What is the actual reason?
15 A. There is a law and there is a police force and what you mentioned
16 does not have anything to do with this case.
17 Q. Thank you. I wish that you answer before this Court under oath in
18 regards to some information that I had as background information, and I
19 thank you for your clarification. This is why I'm asking my questions, to
20 have them clarified.
21 Could you tell me, what is your occupation presently?
22 A. At the moment I'm unemployed.
23 Q. So can one say that you're a farmer in your village. Is that
25 A. A little bit of farming. Now, yes.
1 Q. This year you worked quite a bit in relation to the erecting of
2 the monument for these soldiers killed in Ljuboten. Is that correct?
3 A. You are wrong when you say "soldiers." Those are the victims of
4 the war, of the Ljuboten massacre.
5 Q. I see now that my question is interpreted as soldiers in Ljuboten,
6 while I actually stated you worked on the erection of the monument for the
7 people killed in Ljuboten. I never mentioned the word "soldiers."
8 Is it correct, Mr. Kamberi, that -- excuse me.
9 A. You mentioned the word "soldiers," and I said that they were
10 victims of the Ljuboten massacre, and the child Erxan Aliu, could not be a
11 soldier. Of course, it is true that I worked five months voluntarily --
12 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Kamberi, that was a mistake made in the
13 interpretation of my question. I never mentioned the word "soldiers" and
14 you only received the interpretation "soldiers" and I please ask you, let
15 us continue asking the questions. I understood what you stated.
16 Is it correct, Mr. Kamberi, that you were aware that in 2001 there
17 was a crisis situation in Macedonia because of the attacks of the NLA
18 groups against the Macedonian forces of the army of the police and the
19 civilian population?
20 A. Yes, I was aware.
21 Q. You could follow those news on a daily basis on the TV. Is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The crisis was particularly intensive in the areas of Tetovo and
25 Kumanovo but also in the vicinity of Skopje. Is that correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Your village, Ljuboten, belongs to the Cair municipality. Is that
4 A. It used to be. Now it is in Butel. In 2001, it was in Cair.
5 Q. And Cair and Butel are component parts of the city of Skopje. Is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes. They are communes on their own, municipalities on their own.
8 Q. Ljuboten has a location that is of exceptional importance for the
9 defence of the city of Skopje. Are you aware of this, is that clear to
11 A. I don't understand the question. I don't understand.
12 Q. I will try and ask you a question that you will be able to
14 Is it correct that Ljuboten is located on the slopes of Skopska
15 Crna Gora mountain?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it correct that Skopska Crna Gora is a connection between the
18 Republic of Macedonia and the southern Serbia and Kosovo?
19 A. Listen, in Skopska Crna Gora, if you count the villages, Brnjarci,
20 Treshov [phoen], Stijkovc, Bulacan, Rastak, Ljubanci, Pobozje, Kucavista,
21 Gluvo, Mirkovci, Banjani, Cucer, Sandevo, Radasani, all these are villages
22 where Macedonians live, ethnic Macedonians, and some villages that are
23 Serb villages, the only Albanian village is Ljuboten, in the midst of all
24 of them.
25 Ljuboten -- you're saying that Ljuboten is on the border with
1 Kosovo, but Ljubanci and the other Macedonian villages, Gluva and so on,
2 are closer to that border. From Ljuboten to the Kosova border, there are
3 other villages in between, behind Ljuboten. There are 37 kilometres or
4 40 kilometres from Ljuboten to the border.
5 Q. Thank you for your detailed answer but my question was a bit
6 different. I did not ask whether Ljuboten is at the border with Kosovo or
7 with southern Serbia. I asked that Skopska Crna Gora is the mountain
8 bordering with southern Serbia and Kosovo. So please answer, are you
9 aware of this or not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Very well. And all locations that you mentioned, Ljuboten among
12 them, are located on the slopes of Skopska Crna Gora mountain and are
13 close to the border with the southern Serbia and Kosovo. Is that correct?
14 A. I already told you that the distance is 40 kilometres, and there
15 are other villages, Strima, Malino, Brest, Tanusevci, Gosince, behind they
16 are close to the border, towards the border, while Ljuboten is sort of a
17 settlement of Skopje. If you say that Ljuboten borders that border, then
18 you can as well say that Skopje borders that border.
19 Q. Mr. Kamberi, I would like to ask you to listen carefully to my
20 question and answer that question.
21 A. I am hearing you.
22 Q. We are grateful for your questions, but I never said that Ljuboten
23 was at the border. Allow me to ask you the following. Is it correct that
24 because of the position of Skopska Crna Gora mountain and the villages
25 that are there, Skopska Crna Gora is of particular importance for the
1 defence of the city of Skopje. Is that correct?
2 A. For the defence of the city of Skopje, you mean?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. At what risk could Skopje possibly be from Ljuboten?
5 Q. Could you please answer my question, whether Skopska Crna Gora is
6 of interest for the defence of the city of Skopje. If you don't know,
7 just state that you don't know.
8 A. From whom should Skopje be defended? From Ljuboten? What
9 strategy are you talking about here? I enumerated 20 villages of
10 Macedonians, then Skopje should be under risk from those villages. They
11 would pose danger, those 25 villages that I have enumerated.
12 Q. As opposed to you, the army of the Republic of Macedonia
13 considered it to be a region of particular importance for the defence of
14 the city of Skopje, and in June it passed a decision to deploy military
15 forces in the area of Skopska Crna Gora. Was that clear to you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you know that since June part of the army forces were
18 positioned above the village of Ljuboten as well?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that the transcript didn't
20 pick up correctly the previous answer. The witness said "I know."
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. I know.
24 Q. Skopska Crna Gora was the natural connection from the Macedonian
25 side between the Kumanovo region and Kosovo. Is that correct?
1 A. Could you please repeat your question.
2 Q. Is it correct that you could start from Kumanovo and via Skopska
3 Crna Gora mountain come to the border with Kosovo?
4 A. You mean from Kumanovo?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. It could be.
7 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that you can see very well the valley of
8 the city of Skopje from the village of Ljuboten from various locations but
9 especially from the new mosque?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If I were to tell that you Ljuboten is mainly agricultural village
12 where the population was involved in farming, in agriculture, you would
13 certainly agree with me?
14 A. I would agree with you, yes.
15 Q. But you can agree with me if I state that part of the population
16 of Ljuboten, even before 2001, were involved in various activities against
17 the state of Macedonia. Are you aware of that?
18 A. That is not true.
19 Q. Do you know that some hostile activities of individuals started
20 very soon after the declaration of independence of the Republic of
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. If I tell you maybe it would refresh your memory that in 1992, a
24 decision about the system of national defence was passed, a Book of Rules
25 on the system of national defence, headquarters of the Armed Forces of the
1 Albanians and battalion for the protection of the Cair municipality that
2 gathering of data on about 1.300 military conscripts which composed the
3 Albanian forces started. And that on the 6th of June 2003, the
4 paramilitary unit for the village of Ljuboten was requested to be
5 established and it started, and also formation list for the military unit
6 for the village of Ljuboten had started with certain command of units and
7 the necessary weapons for the units, then, this would refresh your memory,
8 that this took place in the course of 1992 and 1993?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the year before was
10 1993 and not 2003.
11 A. There is the first time I hear about this from you.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Have you heard that in June 1994, the municipal court Skopje II in
14 Skopje sentenced Mithad Emini, Hasan Agushi and eight more individuals for
15 offences organising to perform hostile activities and among the charges
16 was also the establishment of paramilitary independent unit for the
17 village of Ljuboten, gathering staff for that unit and those individuals
18 then bought 200 automatic rifles of Chinese origin.
19 Did you know that in 1994 ten persons were sentenced for
20 participating in these activities?
21 A. To my knowledge, nobody from Ljuboten was sentenced. Only someone
22 else, or you, in person, know about these things. Personally, I have no
23 knowledge whatsoever. This is the first time I hear about it. Actually,
24 you're the first person to tell me that.
25 Q. The aforementioned sentenced persons are not from Ljuboten but the
1 unit they established was supposed to be stationed at Ljuboten. You're
2 not aware of that either. Is it so?
3 A. These are lies.
4 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Kamberi, that immediately at the beginning of
5 the crisis in 2001, some individuals from Ljuboten joined the NLA?
6 A. I don't know about this.
7 Q. Is it correct that individuals from Ljuboten participated in the
8 fights at Aracinovo and Tanusevci villages?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Is it correct that the youngsters controlled the entrance into the
11 village of Ljuboten as early as in the spring of 2001?
12 A. This is not correct. Because in Ljuboten village the police
13 regularly caught patrol whenever they wanted, and the entrance to the
14 village of Ljuboten was controlled by the Macedonian forces with the
15 check-points that they had established, not the way you're putting it
16 to me.
17 Q. However, in Ljuboten itself where Albanian population lives, there
18 was never a police check-point. Is that correct?
19 A. I'm not saying in Ljuboten itself, but the patrols could patrol
20 the village whenever they wanted.
21 Q. Could you agree with me if I say that as early in the spring of
22 2001, Ljuboten becomes an important logistics location for the needs of
23 the NLA?
24 A. This is not correct.
25 Q. You know that because of the larger scale conflicts in the region
1 of Kumanovo where there were very strict controls by the army and the
2 police, Ljuboten was practically used for supply of food and other
3 provisions to the NLA groups that were fighting around Kumanovo?
4 A. This is not true, because as I already told you the village of
5 Ljuboten was not only surrounded by policemen and army, but it was
6 surrounded or amidst 25 other Macedonian villages, on all sides, north,
7 south, east, west. It was surrounded by Macedonian villages, and nobody
8 could dare supply with food or other provisions. Not a single bird could
9 fly freely without them knowing.
10 Q. Could you agree, Mr. Kamberi, if I say that in March 2001, NLA
11 members came to Ljuboten to make propaganda among the local population, to
12 make the population join the NLA?
13 A. This is not true. Excuse me, the Macedonian army were at
14 Ljuboten. A person from Rastak, I don't know who he was, at the local
15 community, he was there together with a co-villager from Rastak and they
16 were Macedonians. The KLA - correction - NLA were not there. These are
17 not -- these things that you are saying are not true. The Macedonian army
18 had access to that area whenever they wanted.
19 Q. Could you agree with me, Mr. Kamberi, that after March of 2001, a
20 large number of villagers actively joined the NLA while another part of
21 the villagers supported the NLA activities in different ways? Are you
22 aware of this?
23 A. Could you please repeat your question? I did not understand it.
24 Q. I'm asking whether it is correct and could you agree with me if I
25 say that as early in the spring of 2001, a large number of villagers of
1 Ljuboten joined the NLA units while --
2 A. What is that, NLA units?
3 Q. These are the NLA units, active in the area of Skopska Crna Gora
5 A. These things are not true. And the NLA was never active in the
6 mountain of Skopska Crna Gora.
7 Q. Can I ask that the witness is shown now 65 ter 1D539, 1D4897.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document was
9 received from the Prosecutor under the Rule 68, and this is part of a
10 diary written in the Albanian language, and I would like to ask that the
11 page 1D489 [as interpreted] be shown in the Albanian, and the page 1D4901
12 in the English language.
13 And I would like to ask that the second page of the diary is shown
14 in the Albanian version, so that one can see the second page. It is not
15 important for the first page to be displayed.
16 On the first page, on the left-hand side page you only see the
17 dates 26th and 27th of March, while in the last paragraph of this diary it
18 is stated, so -- the dates are 26th and 27th of March, 2001. And it is
19 stated: "At 1720 [Previous translation continues]... [In English] In the
20 direction of Gosince towards the region of the fields parts of the special
21 unit were taken away at 1630 hours by orders from Ljuboten with attention
22 by UCK."
23 [Interpretation] Mr. Kamberi, do you know that in Ljuboten at that
24 moment the liaison officer between Ljuboten and NLA was Commander Lisi.
25 A. That's not true.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, due to the
2 importance of this document in relation to the Ljuboten events, I would
3 seek to tender this document as exhibit. As I said, we received this
4 document from the Prosecution on the basis of Rule 68.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Ms. Regue.
6 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honours, this WITNESS has not acknowledged
7 and has no basis to acknowledge what the information which is contained in
8 this document. So I don't see how document could be admitted through this
10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: We don't receive it, Ms. Residovic.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you know Kenan Salievski?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Kenan Salievski, in 2001, was the chairman of the Crisis Staff in
15 Ljuboten village. Is that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. If Kenan Salievski, in his statement to the Office of the
18 Prosecutor dated 6 November and 7th November 2004, in paragraph 40 said
19 the following: "[In English] Being asked who from Ljuboten villagers were
20 members of NLA, I say that Suat Saliu, Riza Jonuzi, Besim Murtezani, Rafiz
21 Bajrami, Shefajet Bajrami, Fikret Aliu, Nimet Aliu, Ruhan Jashari or
22 Bajrami, Ramadan Alimi killed in Matejce mountains, Musa Selimi, Refedin
23 Selimi, Faik Murati, Shefket Murati, Zecir Murati, and Rasim Murati, I
24 think there were about 18 people, but I don't know -- remember all names."
25 [Interpretation] Would this statement, Mr. Kenan Salievski's
1 statement be in contradiction with what you just said before this Trial
3 A. Listen, who has been part of what I cannot give you evidence here
4 about these things. I'm not a policeman. I had my own business to tend
5 to. I minded my own things, and everybody who might have been in the NLA,
6 these was a secret of theirs. These were secret things that they didn't
7 tell anybody else about. I didn't know about them. I didn't see them.
8 Q. You said previously that nobody from the village was member of the
9 NLA. All I'm doing is asking now if the statement of Mr. Kenan Salievski
10 is contrary to what you said before this Trial Chamber?
11 A. I'm not a registry officer, and I don't keep records of who goes
12 where, so I think I'm clear: I don't have information about what you're
14 Q. Mr. Kamberi, feel free to speak in your native language and it
15 will be interpreted to me. Thank you.
16 Do you know Suat Saliu?
17 A. I do know him. Is he a co-villager of mine.
18 Q. And you probably know that he was a member of the NLA too.
19 A. No, I had no knowledge of that.
20 Q. And if Suat Saliu, in his statement to the Prosecutor dated 25th
21 October 2003, enumerated a number of Ljuboten inhabitants who were members
22 of the NLA, his statement would again be in contradiction with what you
23 said, that there were no NLA members from the village. Is that correct?
24 A. I don't know about them.
25 Q. Do you know Zemri Zendeli?
1 A. I know almost everybody in the village.
2 Q. He is the Muslim priest, the hoxha of the village, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If, in his statement to the OTP he said the following: "[In
5 English] If I knew Riza Jonuzi, Rasim Murati, Arsim Elezi, Faredin Murati,
6 Faik Murati, Shefajet Bajrami, Besim Murtezani, Jetulla Rifi, Bekri
7 Ajdini, Orhan Bajrami, Shefket Murati, Refedin Selimi, Feriz Selimi, Suat
8 Saliu, Rafiz Bajrami, I say yes, I know all of except Faredin Murati. All
9 of them are from Ljuboten. Being asked whether I knew if they were
10 members NLA in the period between 10 and 12 August, I say yes, they were."
11 [Interpretation] Mr. Kamberi, would this statement of a neighbour
12 of yours, the village Imam, be, again, contradictory to what you said
13 before this Trial Chamber, that there were no NLA members in the village?
14 A. I already told you, I'm not a civil servant to keep evidence of
15 who of my co-villagers has gone where and what they are. I live in the
16 Macedonian part of the village. On the other side of the village, we go
17 very rarely to do some farming, jobs, and we pass in transit there by
18 tractor. And I don't keep lists of people where they are and who they
20 Q. Do you know Baki Halimi, Mr. Kamberi?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. You previously said that you were not aware of the fact that he
23 was a Commander Lisi?
24 A. I only know him as Baki Halimi.
25 Q. In my previous question on whether you were engaged in the
1 erection of the monument at Ljuboten, you did not give me any answer.
2 Were you involved in these activities for erecting this monument?
3 A. I already gave you an answer. I worked there for four -- for five
4 months in a row.
5 Q. Thank you. And in August, this monument was unveiled. Correct?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. According to the inhabitants, there were many people present, who
8 were invited and the villagers, the local population was addressed by
9 Ali Ahmeti. Is this correct?
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 Q. Halimi Baki, Commander Lisi also addressed the crowd. Is that
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. If I were to tell you --
15 A. You are calling him Commander Lisi. To me he is Baki Halimi.
16 Q. And if I were to tell you that Baki Halimi was the main link
17 between the NLA and the individuals from the village and that in this
18 capacity he spread propaganda, mobilised the villagers to join the NLA,
19 this would be correct. Right?
20 A. No, that's not correct.
21 Q. If I were to tell you that Kenan Salievski in the statement that I
22 mentioned earlier which he gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 6th
23 and 7th of November 2004, in this statement he said the following: "[In
24 English] Contacts with NLA, was Baki Halimi, alias Commander Lisi, from
25 our village. Alimi was for a long time handed his activity, but I found
1 out that he had contact with NLA. Saliu Naim [phoen], Rexhepi Supi
2 [phoen], both from Ljuboten, told me about Alimi's contacts with NLA
3 because they were close to him."
4 [Interpretation] You would agree with me that this statement,
5 given by Kenan Salievski, is totally contrary to what you said, that Baki
6 Halimi was not Commander Lisi and had nothing to do with the NLA, right?
7 A. Baki Halimi, I know him as a teacher in the school, and I don't
8 know anything further about him. In regard to Qenan Salievski's
9 statements, I'm doubtful about them.
10 Q. Do you know, or, rather, did you hear the name of Nazim Bushi?
11 A. I have heard it.
12 Q. You heard that he was a commander of the 114th Brigade of the NLA.
13 A. I was not aware of that.
14 Q. If in his statement dated 9 and 10th June 2004, Bushi Nazim --
15 MS. REGUE: This is the fourth time that my learned colleague is
16 using a statement and we didn't receive notice that this four statements
17 will be used. We have received just now before cross a list, but these
18 statements are not included here. So this is already the fourth time that
19 my learned colleagues are using documents without being giving notice.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, pursuant to the
21 decision of the Trial Chamber, we informed the Prosecutor that we would
22 use certain documents only for discreditation purposes. Before the
23 cross-examination we submitted to the Prosecutor a list of documents that
24 we might use with this witness. And this was, again, pursuant to the
25 decision of the Trial Chamber. It is possible that only Kenan Salievski's
1 statement was not in this list because we used it previously.
2 MS. REGUE: Actually, Suad Saliu, Zemri Zendeli and Nazim Bushi
3 statements are not either in the list.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not use the statement of
5 Suat Saliu, I only mentioned this person and I didn't put to this witness
6 any part of his statement.
7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I think you did, Ms. Residovic.
8 I think you did put a number of elements of the statement of
9 Suat Saliu to the witness. I have it in my notes.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only said that this
11 witness spoke in his statement that there were NLA members, but I didn't
12 quote his statement the way I quoted the statement of other persons.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Please proceed, Ms. Residovic.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Kamberi, if Nazim Bushi has stated in his statement that I
16 have mentioned the following. In the item 46: "[In English] On events on
17 10 to 12 of August 2001, I have prepared a complete overview of
18 information about -- that I receive from Baki Halimi in that period."
19 [Interpretation] And further on in item 52: "[In English] I
20 received all the information Baki Halimi by the mobile phone in the period
21 from 10 to 12 of August 2001. That is all I knew about Ljuboten events."
22 [Interpretation] Then this link between Halimi Baki and the NLA
23 would also be contradicting what you testified about before this Court.
24 Is that correct?
25 A. I don't understand you.
1 Q. Let me remind you, you answered my question --
2 A. If you could repeat the question, because I don't understand.
3 Q. Yes. You stated previously that Halimi Baki was not the link with
4 the NLA when I showed you the testimony of Kenan Salievski or Saliu --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, statement, not
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. -- you stated that this statement could be doubted. Do you
9 remember that?
10 A. Yes, I remember.
11 Q. I have read to you a part of the statement of Nazim Bushi who says
12 that between the 10th and the 12th of August, he was in touch with
13 Baki Halimi, and I'm asking you: Is it correct that this statement of
14 Nazim Bushi is again contradicting what you stated, that Halimi Baki had
15 no link with the NLA?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Thank you. And, otherwise, you were rather close with the
18 Commander Lisi, Baki Halimi. Is that correct?
19 A. I know him as a teacher, but I don't know him as Commander Lisi or
21 Q. If I were to state to you, Mr. Kamberi, that you yourself very
22 early at the times of the fights in the Kumanov region, were actively
23 involve in helping or supporting the NLA, that would be correct. Is that
25 A. That's not correct.
1 Q. And if I were to state to you that you were actually in charge of
2 the logistics, that would also be correct. Do you agree with me?
3 A. That's not correct.
4 Q. And if I were to say to you that you actually then were given the
5 name of Miskoja and you were known under that name as the person who was
6 in charge of the logistics in the village, then this would also be
8 A. This is the first time I am hearing this. In the Balkans there
9 are tigers, leopards, Tarzans, Rambos, everything. What you are saying is
10 not correct.
11 Q. Very well. Tell me, were you once leading a group of young
12 villagers to Matejce?
13 A. No, that's not true. I have never been to Matejce in my life.
14 Q. On the 10th of August, 2001, the NLA members killed eight and
15 wounded six members of the army of the Republic of Macedonia returning
16 from their position via a remotely activated land-mine. Is that correct?
17 Are you aware of this?
18 A. I heard it on the media.
19 Q. After the explosion of that mine, three armed persons entered the
20 village. Do you know this?
21 A. I don't.
22 Q. And is it correct that immediately after that a meeting was held
23 at the school and the discussion at the meeting was how to organise the
25 A. I'm not aware about this.
1 Q. And if I tell you that you were also at that meeting, as well as
2 your brother Meshir and Rami Jusufi and Zemri Zendeli and others would
3 that refresh your memory? Do you remember the meeting?
4 A. That's not correct.
5 Q. And if I tell that it was agreed then that check-points are
6 organised, manned by armed persons, would you agree with me?
7 A. That's not true. What you're saying is not true.
8 Q. Is it correct that after this meeting, Commander Lisi
9 distributed ammunition. He gave 25 bullets each to you and to everyone
10 else present there, so to Rami Jusufi as well?
11 A. All these things are lies. Nothing is true.
12 Q. And if I tell you that the first check-point was near the church,
13 the second one near the house of Rami Jusufi, the third one behind the
14 bridge near the Ahmeti houses while the final one was near the Muslim
15 graveyard, would that remind you of the mode in which the village was
17 A. There was no check-point in the village, and all the things that
18 you said are untrue.
19 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, you stated that on
20 the 10th you moved your wife and children to the house of your brother
21 Meshir because it was safer there. Is that correct?
22 A. It is correct.
23 Q. And then you protected the windows to the house with -- with bags
24 expecting that maybe there would be retaliation for the killed soldiers
25 and someone could attack the village. Is that correct?
1 A. That's correct. That we sheltered all the children -- all our
2 children in the cellar of my brother.
3 Q. And you also stated, if I can re-interpret your statement, that
4 you monitored the situation from the yard of your -- of the house, hiding
5 behind the walls. Is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And, otherwise, the traditional Albanian houses in Ljuboten are
8 surrounded, fenced by walls, and it was possible for you to hide behind
9 that wall so that you are able to observe the situation. Is that correct?
10 A. That's not correct that the villages or the houses are surrounded
11 by walls, because the Macedonian regime, a few years ago, brought down the
12 walls with an excavator, and the village of Aracinovo had a thousand of
13 problems because of those walls so the situation has changed now.
14 In my house, there are three of us, three brothers that live there
15 and you can come and visit any time you want and you will see that there
16 are no walls.
17 Q. I believe that this is so now, but I'm asking you whether it is
18 correct that, in 2001 and before that the traditional Albanian house did
19 have a wall that safeguarded the privacy of the family from anyone who
20 would be passing down the street.
21 A. In Ljuboten, there are no more old houses. Everybody has built a
22 new house. Everybody is trying to get modernised and the old traditions
23 now have been lost almost. From 2001 until today, it is the same
24 Ljuboten. The Ljuboten of 2001 is the same with the Ljuboten today. Even
25 the Macedonian houses are similar to our houses, and you can come and see
1 that for yourself whenever you want.
2 Q. Mr. Kamberi, is it correct that on the Friday, 10th of August, in
3 the evening many families had started already leaving the village of
4 Ljuboten. Some went towards Skopje, while some went to the lower parts of
5 the village where they believed it was safer?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And as you stated, you moved into the house of Selim Jusufi, your
8 neighbour. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And on the following day your neighbours, so again on Saturday,
11 August 11th, your neighbours were also leaving their houses and moving to
12 the lower parts of the city -- of the village. Is that correct?
13 A. That's true, yes.
14 Q. And the wife, the mother and the children of Rami Jusufi went
15 there, while he stayed alone at that house with his disabled father. Is
16 that correct?
17 A. That's not correct. Rami Jusufi's wife and children went to the
18 lower neighbourhood. Rami Jusufi, his father, who was an invalid, and his
19 mother, were in the house.
20 Q. You stated that in the night between Saturday and Sunday, you were
21 still in the house of Selim Jusufi. Is that correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And as you stated, around 2.00, Jetulla --
24 A. Rashiti --
25 Q. -- there and he informed you that he noticed movements of some
1 people in the yard of the church. Is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Since his house is only ten metres away from the church, you
4 immediately went there to see it for yourself. Is that correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And today when asked by my learned colleague, you clarified what
7 you had seen there. Is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. You clarified your statement when you came to The Hague on the 4th
10 of September, 2007, and then you stated the following to the Prosecutor:
11 "[In English] In Paragraph 10 of my statement when I state that I could
12 recognise three or four person in the yard of the church, they were in
13 uniform but I couldn't see what kind of uniform they wore. I mean that I
14 could not tell exactly what shade of green their uniform were. However, I
15 could see that they were wearing green-coloured uniforms of the Macedonian
16 Armed Forces."
17 [Interpretation] Did you state this to the Prosecutor?
18 A. Listen, this statement was given by me in 2004, and this is a
19 statement I've given and I'm convinced that they were members of the
20 Macedonian army.
21 Q. Thank you. This is how I understood it, that this is what you
22 clarified to the Prosecutor.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe it would be
24 the time for the recess, for the break.
25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: All right. We will have our break now
1 and we will resume at 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
4 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Ms. Residovic.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
6 Q. Mr. Kamberi, if you remember, in your statement to the Prosecutor
7 you stated that when you noticed these individuals wearing military
8 uniforms, you immediately phoned your friend, Avni Iseni, who lived in the
9 Poster neighbourhood. Do you remember stating this?
10 A. I do remember.
11 Q. And your friend, Avni Iseni, came to you immediately. Is that
13 A. That's true.
14 Q. And you know that Avni Iseni is a close relative of Baki Halimi.
15 Is that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And that he was also involved in the logistics supply to the NLA.
18 A. That's not correct.
19 Q. Is it correct that because of some businesses that your friend
20 Avni Iseni had, he was known as a person who would be able to move through
21 the mountain with his -- with a blindfold and he would still get to
22 Kumanovo. Is that something that was said about your friend, Avni Isni?
23 A. That's not correct.
24 Q. As you stated in your statement to the Prosecutor, around 4.00 in
25 the morning, you went to the house of Rami Jusufi. Is that correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And you stated that your brother, Meshir was there, Avni Iseni,
3 Rami Jusufi?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And that you stayed there until 5.30 in the morning, in the Rami
6 Jusufi's yard?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Could you remember what was Rami Jusufi wearing when you were
10 A. As far as I know, but still I'm not sure, I think he had jeans on
11 and a T-shirt, a grey T-shirt, dark grey, I think.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
13 witness is now shown Exhibit P1D4. I apologise, exhibit, first P9.
14 Q. My question is whether you recognise in this photograph your
15 friend, Rami Jusufi, and the clothes that he wore that night.
16 A. I recognise him. He is a neighbour of mine. He lives 15 metres
17 away from me.
18 Q. Do you also recognise his clothes as the clothes he wore and what
19 he was wearing at the moment you left his yard?
20 A. These were the same clothes, jeans and a grey T-shirt.
21 Q. If someone would assert before this Court that you were not
22 present on that morning in Rami Jusufi's yard, would you agree with this?
23 A. I wouldn't agree with that. I was there that morning until 5.30.
24 At that time, I left and went to my children in the lower neighbourhood.
25 So when it started to dawn, I left him at his house.
1 Q. And in relation to this question, I wish to indicate the
2 transcript, page 440. If I were to say to you, Mr. Kamberi, that actually
3 you have spent this night not in the yard but in front of the house of
4 Rami Jusufi together with Rami Jusufi, with your brother Meshir,
5 Bajram Jashari, Mesu and Selim Saliu and you were at the check-point in
6 front of that house, that would be the truth. Do you agree with me?
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters wish to ask the counsel to
8 please read the names slowly for the interpreters and for the transcript.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I can read again for the
10 transcript the names of the persons for which I claim were there with you
11 together so I would like to ask whether you agree with this.
12 Q. In front of the house of Rami Jusufi there were you, your brother
13 Meshir, Bajram Jashari, Avni Hyseni, Selim Selimi. Is that correct?
14 A. No, that's not correct. We were -- these people, myself, my
15 brother, Rami Jusufi and Avni Hyseni, nobody else was there. Avni lives
16 close to me about 100, 2100, 30 metres away from my house. Rami Jusufi is
17 the next door neighbour. There's only one street, three-metre wide street
18 that divides us, our yards.
19 Q. And if I were to say to you that further down, not far from the
20 church, Memedi Nuri, Memedi Azbi, Memedi Farush, Memedi Qenan and
21 Memedi Nime with his son Sedat were and that they dispatched to you the
22 news that there are some people in the churchyard then, again, these facts
23 would be correct. Can you agree with me?
24 A. That night, until the morning, I was with Avni Jusufi [as
25 interpreted], Meshir and Avni Hyseni. I did not see or speak to anyone
1 else that night. These are the names that you are mentioning. I did not
2 see these people. And in the morning, after 5.30 in the morning, I went
3 to the lower neighbourhood to my uncle Zejnulla Memedi and then I went to
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. Tell me, is it correct that the street
6 goes downwards from the church and it goes to the lower part where there
7 is also a meat factory. Is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
10 witness is shown Prosecutor's Exhibit P148.
11 Q. You have seen this photograph before.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 428.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 428.
14 Q. Could you please use the marker and show me, draw an arrow to show
15 me how the street goes downwards from the church to the lower part where
16 there is also this meat factory. Actually, just show me the street; it is
17 not necessary to see this meat factory.
18 A. In the photograph, the meat factory is not there.
19 Q. Very well. Just show me the road that goes downwards from the
20 church to the lower part of the village. Actually, to this cross-road.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. If I understood you well, you have marked the churchyard with the
23 number 1 and with the circle. Is that the area of the church?
24 A. Yes, the church area.
25 Q. And I then asked you to show me which road goes downwards from the
1 church to the lower part of the village, not from the house of Rami Jusufi
2 but from the church.
3 A. From autobuska [phoen], the road leads to the lower neighbourhood.
4 It goes around the churchyard and then you go straight to the lower
6 Q. I will like to ask you to draw an arrow up until the place where
7 the decline of the -- the downwards ramp of the street stops and where the
8 street continues going upwards again.
9 A. Do you know what? You can see here just 10 percent of the road,
10 to the lower neighbourhood. You don't see the entire road.
11 Q. I agree. And in this just 10 percent of the road, please show me
12 with an arrow, arrow indicating that this is still going downwards, this
13 part of the street.
14 A. Yes. How can I mark it with an arrow, though, if I cannot see
15 here? Because at Mesanice [phoen] the butcher's shop, on the left, there
16 is a road which goes towards the lower neighbourhood. It's the shortest
17 route, while by car you go around the church and then you go down.
18 Q. Could you help me like this, Mr. Kamberi, please. Could you draw
19 a circle to mark whether the downward ramp starts of the street from the
20 church towards the area where your houses are and the house of Rami Jusufi
21 that you marked. If you could just draw a circle to indicate where the
22 street stops going downwards, if that can be seen on this photograph.
23 A. That road does not end, because this road goes round the village,
24 the whole village. So there is no end. Goes towards the lower
25 neighbourhood, to the Durmishi neighbourhood and around the village
1 itself. So that's why there is no end to it, because it's a ring road to
2 the village.
3 Q. Tell me this now, please, you drew a blue line that has a point or
4 an angle. Is it correct that this part of the road - you say this is a
5 ring road going all throughout the village - that this part of the road,
6 then, goes downwards to the corner that you indicated and then gradually
7 goes upwards to the house of Rami Jusufi and towards your houses and then
8 further through the village. Is that correct?
9 A. It is correct that this road is the main road that links the whole
10 village but it goes round it. This road leads to the lower neighbourhood,
11 to the Durmishi neighbourhood, to the graveyard, the whole village.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you now do this: At the corner you
13 made a corner so could you mark it with the number 1?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. So the place where this line makes a turn.
16 A. Yes, there is a turn here. Just around the corner is the entrance
17 to the church.
18 Q. And I would like to ask you to please mark it with the number 1.
19 A. Number 1?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. At the edge?
22 Q. Exactly here, where you just placed it.
23 And from that point 1, this main road gradually goes uphill
24 towards the house of Rami Jusufi, towards your houses, and other parts of
25 the village. Is that correct?
1 A. It is correct, yes.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this photograph
4 as a Defence exhibit.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D147, Your Honours.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. If I were to say to you that at the moment when the armed
9 individuals entered the village in the morning, that fire was opened from
10 this check-point near the church against the police positions at the
11 Straista, then you would agree with me that this is correct?
12 A. No, that's not correct. I don't agree with what you stated.
13 Q. And if I were to say to that in that exchange of fire, Rami Jusufi
14 was wounded, then this would also be correct?
15 A. Rami Jusufi was killed by the police and the army, whoever was
16 there and he was killed at the gate of his house, at the door and what
17 you're saying is not true. His -- he was killed at the door of -- to his
19 Q. And the rest of you withdrew towards the Muslim graveyards. And
20 from that elevation above the Muslim graveyards, you were able to see that
21 at the check-point there are police who are controlling the people leaving
22 the village. Is that correct?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, checking, instead of
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand your question.
1 Could you repeat it, please.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. A bit later during the day you decided to leave the village. You
4 went by the Muslim graveyards, you went to an elevation from where you
5 were able to see the road going towards Skopje. Is that correct?
6 A. No, that's not correct. I was in the village all the time, inside
7 the village.
8 Q. And persons who tried to leave the village together with you were
9 Asbi Memedi, Nazim Kamberi, Nuri Memedi, Isali Naim but you did not come
10 to the check-point. You took the fields and reached the river, and this
11 is where you stayed until dusk. Is that correct?
12 A. That's correct. That is to say, that somebody who I don't know
13 made a phone call to say that the villagers of Ljuboten should go downhill
14 along the road because buses are coming of the Red Cross or UNHCR, I don't
15 know. But there was this person who said that some buses are coming. And
16 together with all the people from my village, I -- I stayed in the village
17 myself. My children and the whole -- the rest of the village went with
19 Q. But you, Asbi Memedi, Meshir Kamberi, Nuri Memedi, Isali Naim did
20 not go towards the check-point but you were hiding or you were waiting by
21 the river. Is that correct?
22 A. Naim Saliu and Asbi Memedi were not people who I met that day.
23 Meshir Kamberi went with the villagers towards the check-point.
24 Q. And when it was known that the villagers were returning to the
25 village, you went to the lower neighbourhood and you stayed there for some
1 time in the house of Asbi Memedi. Is that correct?
2 A. No, that is not correct, that I went to Asbi's. I went to my
3 uncle's in the lower neighbourhood. My uncle's name is Selim Memedi.
4 Q. In your statement you said that in the evening by accident you
5 heard from Muzafer Jusufi, you learned that Rami Jusufi died. Do you
6 remember stating this in paragraph 19 of your statement?
7 A. I remember that I went -- I met by chance Muzafer Jusufi in the
8 lower neighbourhood, and he told me that Rami was killed and he was at
10 Q. And this happened in the evening hours of that day, right?
11 A. In the evening hours, yes.
12 Q. If Kenan Salievski, in this statement that I put to you, claimed
13 the following: "[In English] At about 12 hours or 13 hours, Fatmir
14 Kamberi called me and informed me that Rami Jusufi was killed."
15 [Interpretation] Then this would be contrary to what you're saying
16 now, right?
17 A. That's not correct. I did not call Qenan Saliu.
18 Q. Did you ask Muzafer Jusufi when Rami Jusufi died?
19 A. I didn't ask him any questions. In the evening, he had set off
20 for Skopje, and I tried to stop him in the lower neighbourhood. I told
21 him to stay there, but he did not agree to what I said. He said, I'll go
22 to Skopje because I can't stay here any longer, and I don't know what
23 happened from then on.
24 Q. Indeed, you met Muzafer Jusufi as he was setting off for Skopje.
25 You didn't see him before that and you didn't know anything about
1 Rami Jusufi's death. This is what you're saying, right?
2 A. Until the evening, before I met Muzafer Jusufi I did not know
3 anything. It was him that told me in the evening that Rami Jusufi had
4 been killed in his house.
5 Q. And at the moment when you saw Muzafer Jusufi he was in fact left
6 for Skopje on that day, right?
7 A. I don't know. He set off in the direction of Skopje. Whether he
8 went there or not, this I don't know, because I didn't see him after that.
9 Q. All right. Thank you. When you returned in the village with some
10 of your friends, you went to the house of Rami Jusufi and helped his
11 father to take the body of Rami Jusufi at his sister's place in the
12 Durmishi neighbourhood, right?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And the following morning, you yourself attended the funeral of
15 Rami Jusufi in the court yard of his sister, and this ceremony was
16 conducted by the elderly Muslim priest from the village, right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Immediately after the funeral of Rami Jusufi, his father Elmaz and
19 mother Zenep left for the place of their other daughter in Skopje and they
20 remained there for over a month, right?
21 A. Elmaz Jusufi has only one daughter, and she's married to somebody
22 in Ljuboten in the Durmishi neighbourhood. He does not have any other
23 daughter. He had two sons and one daughter.
24 Q. Thank you for this clarification. However, I'm asking you whether
25 you're familiar with the fact that Elmaz went to Skopje on that day,
1 together with his wife, and that they remained there for over a month. It
2 looks like the information I had as to where they went in Skopje was not
4 A. I don't know myself where they went. They went to Skopje and
5 remained there, but where I don't know.
6 Q. So my question is: They left immediately after the funeral on the
7 13th of August, and they were not in the village when the OSCE commission
8 that you also mentioned in your statement arrived on the 14th of August in
9 Ljuboten. Is that correct?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. And if you recall, in your statement you stated that you went to
12 the yard of Rami Jusufi's house and that at that moment certain persons
13 from the OSCE were taking photographs of the bullet casings in the yard.
14 Do you remember this?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. There was nobody in the house, right, because the father and the
17 mother of Rami Jusufi were already in Skopje, right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Thank you. When you saw the body of Rami Jusufi, you would agree
20 with the opinion of Dr. --
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, this was a protected
22 witness. So I would kindly ask you to go briefly into closed session.
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.
24 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Kamberi, is it true that before entering the house of
23 Rami Jusufi, or, rather the house of Elmaz Jusufi, there is a tiled part
24 which is about four to five metres flat?
25 A. That's correct.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like now to show the
2 witness Exhibit 1D101.
3 Q. Mr. Kamberi, you probably recognise the courtyard and the entry to
4 the house of Elmaz Jusufi, father of Rami Jusufi, right?
5 A. Yes, I recognise it.
6 Q. With number 1 - if we could lift up the photograph a little bit,
7 please - is marked the area where the casings were found. Were these
8 casings that you yourself saw when you arrived in Elmaz Jusufi's yard?
9 A. These casings stayed there for several days. That night, in the
10 evening, I did not pass this way, but there is another way to go inside
11 the house, that's how we got Rami. That night we didn't enter this way
12 because you had to go through the churchyard and that was the Macedonian
13 part so we didn't dare go that way. And the bullet casings remained there
14 for two or three days. That night it was dark, and it-- it was not
15 possible for us to see a lot of things.
16 Q. Yes. But later on, when this OSCE commission arrived, you
17 surely saw these casings on this location, right?
18 A. Yes, exactly there.
19 Q. And on this flat part of the yard of Elmaz Jusufi there were these
20 casings, right? And if you can see from the tiles themselves, you would
21 probably say that they are about five metres away from the door that has
22 been damaged by the bullet impact.
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Thank you. If I were to put to you now --
25 A. However, there were other bullet casings at the door, at the gate.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The microphones of the witness are switched off.
2 The interpreter cannot hear him.
3 Microphone for counsel, please.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: The technician is on his way.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now the mic is on. Thank you.
7 Q. I hope you can hear me now, Witness.
8 You earlier said that after the 12th in the evening when you met
9 with Muzafer, you did not see him after this date, right?
10 A. That's right, I did not see him.
11 Q. You didn't see him either on the 14th, when this OSCE commission
12 was there. He was not in the village and you did not see him on this date
13 either, right?
14 A. I don't know, because at that time people did not know where their
15 brothers were. I was staying at my uncle's in the lower neighbourhood
16 while my younger brother went to the city, and my elder brother, I did not
17 know where he was staying, which house. I thought maybe he was staying at
18 a safer house at some other uncle of ours or another cousin, I don't know.
19 Q. However, you did not see him from the moment when you saw him
20 leaving towards Skopje. This is what you explained earlier to me, right?
21 A. I did not see him, and I don't know whether he went to Skopje or
22 not. I know that he set off for Skopje but whether he arrived there, I
23 don't know.
24 Q. Thank you. This was not clear to me; that's why I asked for a
1 Mr. Kamberi, Dr. Zlatko Jakovski testified before this Trial
2 Chamber, and asked by the Prosecutor: "[In English] Can you please tell us
3 by lower position could this mean that the shooter was in a crouching
4 position or perhaps lying down at the time that the projectile was fired."
5 [Interpretation] The doctor, considering the trajectory of the
6 projectile in the body of Rami Jusufi, stated earlier that the person
7 shooting was at a lower position than Rami Jusufi. This is why the
8 Prosecutor asked the aforementioned question, so that the doctor could
9 clarify his previous statement.
10 So when asked this question the doctor answered the following:
11 "[In English] According to the difference in height of four centimetre
12 between the bone, that is to say, the left inguinal bone and the left side
13 of the body, this is just four centimetres at a very short distance. I
14 can say that the projectile entered the body under the sharp angle of
15 around 50 to 60 degrees with respect to the vertical plane of the body
16 which points to the fact that if the person who is shooting at him, if the
17 person was crouching or lying down, the person would be very close to the
18 deceased. When I say close, I'm just talking about a metre or two, or the
19 deceased might have been at a larger distance from the shooter, but maybe
20 he was on a tree or on the terrace elevated position and the shooter might
21 have been lower."
22 [Interpretation] My question is now, Mr. Kamberi, the following:
23 Is it correct, do you agree with me that Rami Jusufi was not hit at the
24 door to his house, that it happened elsewhere, in front of the entrance to
25 the house on the street or elsewhere. Is that correct?
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, Your Honours,
2 I quoted from part of the statement of Dr. Zlatko Jakovski, 2426, and 2427
3 were the pages quoted. 2427.
4 Q. Can you agree with me that Rami Jusufi was not hit at -- by a
5 bullet at the door of his house?
6 A. I am strongly convinced that Rami Jusufi was killed at the
7 entrance door to his house. I don't know who this Zlatko Jakovski is, but
8 they, the doctors, tried even at hospitals to kill the injured and the
9 beaten by the police, those that were beaten in the police stations.
10 Could you please tell me who this world known expert Zlatko Jakovski is?
11 Q. Mr. Kamberi, is it correct that the problems related to the
12 village security continued after the events in 2001 and that twice weapons
13 were found once at Basinec locality, five submachine-guns and one
14 automatic weapon. Are you aware of --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, five automatic weapons
16 and one semi-automatic weapon.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any knowledge about
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Do you know that on the 8th of October, 2001 -- five, 2005, in the
21 village itself, in one part of the village a search was carried out and
22 across the street from the new mosque around 30 hand-held grenades were
23 found, around 1300 bullets, and six automatic rifles. Are you aware of
24 this fact?
25 MS. REGUE: Your Honours.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it is the police that brings
2 these weapons there to stage everything, this is the strongest evidence
3 that they are the ones who are planting the weapons there and precisely
4 for the purpose of this Tribunal's case. Maybe 2.000, 3.000 children
5 entered that abandoned house in the very centre of the village on daily
6 basis. Nearby there is a shop, excuse my language, but children, adults
7 they entered this house to urinate. This has been planted by the police,
8 and I am a million per cent convinced that this was staged by them at
9 Basinec and at this abandoned house and this was done for the purpose of
10 this trial so that they could gather more evidence, as if to say.
11 Q. And in the course of the search and when weapons were found --
12 MS. REGUE: Your Honours.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- also the international
14 representatives were present.
15 MS. REGUE: Just for the record, I think we're talking about 2005
16 which is four years after the relevant time period of the indictment so I
17 don't see the relevance of this line of questioning.
18 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreters kindly ask the witness to
19 speak in his native language because it is difficult for us.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Listen, when it is in my own
21 interest, I would gather not only five different media but 100 when I'm
22 about to stage something that will serve my purpose. They did their
23 calculation, the police, the media, and only to serve their interest here
24 in The Hague. And what you're saying not true and I guarantee you with my
25 own life.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much Mr. Kamberi,
2 you have answered the questions that I have asked you. Thank you very
4 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.
5 Mr. Apostolski.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness, Fatmir Kamberi. My name
9 is Antonio Apostolski, and I am the lead counsel for Mr. Johan Tarculovski
10 and I will ask you questions related to the events in Ljuboten in August
12 Can I start asking you questions?
13 A. Yes, you can.
14 Q. You stated that you were born in Ljuboten and that you lived
15 there. Is that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. You served the conscription military service in Zagreb in 1988 in
18 the infantry. Is that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Is it correct that you were trained in using infantry weapons
21 during your conscription military service?
22 A. You mean in Zagreb?
23 Q. Yes, during your conscription military service in Zagreb, in 1988.
24 A. That's correct. And that's quite normal for every soldier.
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours for the transcript,
1 when I asked my questions in line 8, 1988 is -- 1998 is incorrect. It
2 should have been 1988.
3 Q. Do you agree with me, Witness?
4 A. 1998, yes.
5 Q. Is it correct that you are a member of the political party
6 Democratic Union for Integration, the abbreviation of which is DUI?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction in line 21, 1988.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do support this party, but I'm not
9 a member of it, and I don't have a membership card of this party. But I
10 do support this party, DUI.
11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
12 his statement, 2D -- his statement received in evidence today as Exhibit
13 426, item .5, item 5 on page 3.
14 Could the witness please be shown the respective page in the
15 Albanian language, page 3.
16 Q. Do you see the statement in front of you signed -- do you see the
17 paragraph 5?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you see that you had stated: "I am a member of the DUI party,
20 Democratic Union for Integration."
21 A. I do support this party. I don't have any document as member of
22 this party, but I do support it, I do help it to the extent that I can. I
23 do represent it, but I don't have a membership card of this party,
24 official membership card. But I do support it.
25 Q. Is it correct that you stated that you were a member of this
1 party? You stated this to the ICTY investigators. You can see this in
2 paragraph 5.
3 A. I support it. I will repeat myself again. I support it, I vote
4 for it, and I do help the Democratic Union for Integration, but I don't
5 have an official membership card.
6 Q. Very well. Thank you. You surely know Ali Ahmeti, he is the
7 president of DUI. Do you know Mr. Ali Ahmeti?
8 A. This is the membership card. It is filled in but it has no seal,
9 nothing of the sort. Look at this.
10 Q. I have asked you --
11 A. Maybe --
12 Q. Do you know Mr. Ali Ahmeti?
13 A. Maybe this was a misunderstanding regarding my membership, so I
14 will answer this.
15 I know Ali Ahmeti -- I apologise. I do know Ali Ahmeti from the
16 media, from rallies.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] For the sake of transcript, can
18 we record that the witness has shown a DUI membership card which bears no
20 Q. Is Mr. Ali Ahmeti a member of the Macedonian parliament?
21 A. He is an MP, yes.
22 Q. Was Mr. Ali Ahmeti an MP also in the previous convention of the
23 assembly of the Republic of Macedonia since 2002?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it correct that in 2001 Ali Ahmeti was the leader of the
1 terrorist organisation NLA?
2 A. Listen, you're wrong when you use the term "terrorist." The NLA
3 were not terrorists, neither was Ali Ahmeti. A terrorist wages a secret
4 war, while the NLA waged an open war, fought openly. And the whole world
5 were aware of this war, and all the media as well.
6 Q. Could you please tell me why was the NLA waging war and which were
7 the aims to be achieved?
8 A. I can tell you. At this moment you have 100.000 Macedonians
9 without citizenship document, people -- Albanians who were born there, who
10 lived in Macedonia for all their lives, who lived there generation after
11 generation for hundreds of years and they don't have citizenship
13 Secondly, the Macedonian leadership forced the Albanians to take
14 up arms and fight for their rights.
15 Q. Do you mean to say that they were waging war to attain citizenship
16 status for these 100.000 persons, or did they have other aims as well?
17 A. It's not just a matter of citizenship. Many things have remained
18 unsettled for the Albanians in Macedonia. As far as I know, from 1981
19 onwards the Albanians in Macedonia didn't have any rights, and I'm
20 speaking precisely about my village. I'm 42 years old. The history does
21 not show that the village of Ljuboten had a single Albanian policeman.
22 Now there are six or seven policemen after the war of 2001, and in all
23 walks of life we were trampled upon and that's why we were forced to take
24 up arms, for our rights.
25 Q. Is it correct that the NLA advocating separation of the western
1 part of Macedonia and joining to -- joining it to Albania and Kosovo?
2 A. This is not true. This is what some of you may think, but this is
3 not what the Albanians wanted then or what they want now. Ali Ahmeti
4 himself demonstrates this clearly. He says this is Macedonia, this is my
5 own fatherland and it is mine as much as it is yours.
6 Q. Is it correct that you have completed your primary education in
7 your native Albanian language?
8 A. I completed my secondary education in Arsenja Jovkov [phoen]
9 secondary school. Only two subjects were taught in Albanian. The rest
10 were in Macedonian.
11 Q. Is it correct that there was a secondary school during that time,
12 Nikola Karev or Zef Ljus Marku in Skopje where the entire teaching was in
13 the Albanian language?
14 A. That is correct. But, tell me, how many classes were there? This
15 was a school, a gymnasium, this Zef Ljus Marku, but the number of classes
16 were previously designated, you could not go over it.
17 Q. Is it correct that also before 2001 there were Albanian MPs in the
18 Macedonian Assembly?
19 A. It is correct, there were.
20 Q. Is it correct that there were members of the government of
21 Albanian ethnicity? I'm now speaking about the time before 2001.
22 A. We still have members in the government, and the European Union
23 and Europe in general, NATO made the Ohrid agreement possible but this
24 Macedonian government is not listening to the Americans, to NATO or to the
25 European Union, let alone to Albanians, those who are members in that
1 Macedonian government.
2 Q. Is it correct that the second political party in Macedonia after
3 the introduction of a multi-party system that was introduced was the
4 Albanian party, PDP, in 1990?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. So you can agree with me that immediately after plural party
7 system was introduced, the Albanians were able to establish their
8 party that participated in the first parliamentary elections?
9 A. It is true that they did take part in the elections.
10 Q. Is it correct that in the first multi-party elections -- I could
11 not give you the exact number but there were around 28 elected MPs, 28
12 seats in the parliament?
13 A. It is true that there were, but what choice did they have?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the previous question
16 should have been "is it true that they won 28 seats in the parliament.
17 The Question now is --
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Is it true there were members in the government of the Republic of
20 Macedonia of Albanian ethnicity after the first parliamentary elections?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Could you tell me now, who is the president of the branch of DUI
23 in Ljuboten?
24 A. Sadri Halimi.
25 Q. Is it correct that there are many supporters of DUI in the village
1 of Ljuboten?
2 A. That's true. And the party of Ali Ahmeti always comes victorious
3 in the elections.
4 Q. Is it correct that Ejup Amitov is a distinguished member of DUI
5 from the Ljuboten village, or Ejup Ahmeti?
6 A. To my knowledge, he is not a member of the BDI, or DUI. I don't
7 know if things have changed recently, but to my knowledge, he is not a
9 Q. Is it correct that the NLA members became DUI members?
10 A. No, that's not correct.
11 Q. Do you know Xhezair Shaqiri, he was a MP in the assembly of
13 A. Xhezair Shaqiri is not a member of parliament. He is not a MP
14 now. I know him because of the media.
15 Q. Is it correct that he was a MP in the previous convention? I
16 asked you about that assembly, the one of 2002.
17 A. He was then, yes.
18 Q. Is it true that Xhezair Shaqiri is known as Commander Hodza?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And he was a NLA commander. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, correct.
22 Q. Is it correct that Xhezair Shaqiri proclaimed in August 2007, that
23 the part of Macedonia where Tanusevci village is located will take
24 cessation from Macedonia and will be joined to Kosovo?
25 A. The politicians know these things better. I'm not aware of this.
1 Xhezair must know and the Macedonian government and the rest of the
2 politicians. I'm not aware.
3 Q. Did the Commander Hodza -- did Xhezair Shaqiri proclaim this
4 through the media, through the Macedonian media? This was at the end of
5 August. This was some 15 days ago.
6 A. I know this, that he publicly denied that those were his words.
7 He publicly said that those were words were attributed to him wrongly. He
8 never said them.
9 Q. Thank you. On Friday, August 10, 2001, you were at your home with
10 your family. Is that correct? I'm speaking about the morning, yes.
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. You woke up around 8.00. The shelling of the village of Ljubanci
13 woke you up -- I apologise. You woke up around 8.00 from the noise of the
14 shelling of the village?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. The shelling lasted until 11.00, and it came from the positions of
17 the Macedonian security forces direction. They were located at Malistena
18 or Tumba.
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Is it correct that more than 30 shells impacted during that time?
21 A. Listen, I can't give you an exact number. Maybe there were 40,
22 maybe 20, or 25. I can't tell you how many shells there were. I know
23 only of some shells that fell on houses, on the roofs of the houses, but
24 as to how many there were, I cannot know.
25 Q. Is it correct that the shells caused damage? Several houses were
1 set on fire by that?
2 A. The barn of Haxhi Dalipi was burned because of the shelling. I'm
3 speaking about the flames that we -- that were seen, because there were
4 other houses that were damaged by shelling, and Haxhi Dalipi's barn was
5 burned. We could see the flames.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
8 Could the photograph please be zoomed in. Thank you.
9 Q. Could you tell us approximately where is the barn that you
10 mentioned where the shell fell, so that this part of the photograph could
11 be zoomed in.
12 In which corner of the photograph? Could you show this?
13 A. If you zoom in on the right, on my right.
14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the photograph please be
15 zoomed in.
16 A. Towards the church.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in the right
18 corner of the photograph.
19 Q. Could you now see it in this photograph? And mark it with a
21 A. Of course. I placed a dot here.
22 Q. Could you mark it with number 1?
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Could you mark in this photograph other houses where shells fell
25 on the morning of August 10, 2001, the houses that were damaged?
1 A. The houses that were damaged. Well --
2 Q. Could you please mark them with numbers 2 or 3 or 4. If there are
3 several of them?
4 A. Which day are you referring to? Could you please explain to me
5 which date.
6 Q. Friday, 10th of August, 2001.
7 A. The barn -- the barn of Haxhi Murati [phoen] was not burned on
8 Friday. That Dalip Murati's barn or stable was burned on the 12th of
9 August. Whether it was a Zolja or a RPG, I don't know. I was at my
10 uncle's house Zejnulla Memedi's house which is 50 metres away from there.
11 That I saw with my own eyes because I was hiding there behind the wall.
12 On Friday --
13 Q. Since you stated that several shells fell on the Friday --
14 A. I will tell you now about Friday.
15 Nuredin Elezi's house was hit on the roof. Because it is in
16 front of me.
17 Q. Could you mark it with the number 2. Approximately, not
18 necessarily the exact house. The part where it is.
19 A. I can give the exact place of the roof.
20 Q. Could you please mark the house with number 2.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Could you mark another house, if you're aware of another house
23 having been hit on Friday morning.
24 A. It was the house of Veli Esati, but it is not here in the
25 photograph. It's on my left, here on the photograph. Then --
1 Q. Very well. Could you see in this photograph another house that
2 was hit on Friday morning, on the 10th of August?
3 A. Nuredin Elezi's house was hit. Veli Esati's house, Ismail's
4 house, I can't remember his surname now, or maybe Ismaili was his surname.
5 Several shells fell --
6 Q. Could you please just mark them?
7 A. Let me just tell you, this photograph -- but you have to move the
8 photograph a little bit to the right, because those houses cannot be seen
10 Q. Very well. Thank you.
11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this
12 photograph be received as an exhibit.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D48, Your Honours.
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think this would be
16 a convenient time for a break.
17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. We will have our break until 1.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Apostolski.
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Kamberi, you stated that you were employed at the post office.
23 You were working there. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it correct that you left the service since you were involved in
1 financial embezzlements at the post office?
2 A. That is not true.
3 Q. Is it correct that you worked together with Blagoja Stojanovksi
4 there at the post office?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Let me ask you: Do you drink alcohol?
7 A. Never in my life.
8 Q. Is it correct that you would go to the bars in the Cair
9 municipality after work with your colleagues from the post office?
10 A. It is true.
11 Q. Is it correct that you went together with Blagoja in the -- to a
12 bar in the vicinity of the sports centre Karpos and that you drank alcohol
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Partizan and not
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. I did not drink
17 alcohol though. My friends did.
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Is it correct that you discussed the events of August 2001 in
20 Ljuboten with Blagoja there at the bar?
21 A. That's correct.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
23 the addendum to his statement received today as Exhibit P426. So
25 If we could go to page 2, please.
1 Q. If you could look at item 2 at that says: "During the
2 conversation with Blagoja Stojanovski that took place about five or six
3 months ago in the cafe in the vicinity of Partizan recreation centre in
4 Cair, he talked about the incident in Ljubanci village which killed
5 Macedonian soldiers. At the beginning of conversation we were all
6 consuming alcohol and later on, the quantity increased which provoked
7 Blagoja to speak even more."
8 Is it correct that you have stated this to the OTP of this
9 Tribunal, that you drank alcohol with him together?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. This means that you consume alcohol, although you told us earlier
12 that you don't.
13 A. No. What I said was that I never even tried alcohol in my whole
14 life. I was present there. I consumed coffee, alcohol -- correction,
15 Coca-Cola but not alcohol. My friends did consume alcohol. Personally, I
16 didn't try alcohol in all my live.
17 Q. You told the investigators that there is a family relation between
18 Blagoja and Johan Tarculovski. Is this correct?
19 A. Correct. According to his words.
20 Q. And you told them that Blagoja told you that in the school-yard in
21 Ljubanci, Johan Tarculovski climbed on the top of the staircase of the
22 school and held a speech. Is this correct?
23 A. Correct. According to his words.
24 Q. This means that the information you received was from Blagoja
25 Stojanovski, your colleague, right?
1 A. Correct.
2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be
3 shown the statement of Blagoja Stojanovski, 2D356. He provided this
4 statement to the Defence of Johan Tarculovski on the 3rd of September,
6 This statement has a draft translation, which was done by Defence
7 members of Johan Tarculovski. If we could go to this statement, please.
8 Q. In his statement given on the 3rd of September 2007 [as
9 interpreted] Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski said the following: "I never had
10 the last name Cajkulov [phoen], my surname was Stojanovski. I work at the
11 post office as a main cashier. When asked about Fatmir Kamberi, I know
12 his name because of the following: Before the year 2005, a person with
13 that name worked at the post office in Cair. I know this name because he
14 was caught in the crime of theft in the post office and that's why he was
15 dismissed from work. I know this person very little. We worked at the
16 same post office, maybe we sat together in the -- in the post office
17 itself but never outside in a cafe."
18 I was in my house in Ljubanci in August 2001, when eight members
19 of the Macedonian army were killed. Amongst them was Tomca Badarovski
20 [phoen], a colleague. All of the other colleagues from the post office
21 went to the funeral. Everyone was aware of that, all of my colleagues from
22 the post office knew I was there at the funeral; I'm not hiding that.
23 There was a large group of people who were paying tribute to the killed
24 people from the village. I remember that people from the army were making
25 a speech and they -- there were honour fires in tribute of the killed. I
1 don't remember anyone giving a speech. I don't remember anyone else
2 giving a speech."
3 Asked about the person Johan Tarculovski, I know him since his
4 parents come from his village and now I know him better after he was
5 arrested by the ICTY. Asked whether this person was at Ljubanci village
6 August 10 to 12, 2001. I state that I haven't seen him then. Even if he
7 had been there, I couldn't have seen him because there was a huge crowd of
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Do you agree with me --
11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON: I note that several moments several minutes ago at the
13 top of this page the witness was mentioned. However, the Prosecution
14 believes it is not an appropriate use -- it is not an appropriate form of
15 cross-examination than to simply to continue to read into the record
16 information about events that very well may have nothing to do with this
17 witness. There's a question about what is said about the witness in -- on
18 this statement. That question should have been put to the witness several
19 minutes ago.
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I'm sure, Mr. Apostolski, that you will
21 be able to adapt your questioning to this.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will adhere to the
23 previous examination, because in my previous questions also these topics
24 were comprised. The topics comprised by the addendum to the statement of
25 the witness that is received in evidence.
1 Q. You stated that you worked at the post office. You remember that?
2 And -- is that correct?
3 A. It is correct that I used to work there.
4 Q. Is it correct that you were dismissed from work at the post
5 office? You were dismissed because of embezzlement?
6 A. That is not correct. That's not correct. I had an argument with
7 Tahir Jakupi, the general director in his office because they did not give
8 me a decision. I have witnesses and there are witnesses who can testify
9 to my going to his office and having the argument with him, because he did
10 not issue the decision that he had promised.
11 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski, when asked about you,
12 stated that: "The person, Fatmir Kamberi, is known to me because sometime
13 before 2005, a person by that name worked at the post office in Cair. He
14 came to my knowledge because he was caught in the act of theft at the post
15 office. He embezzled a large amount of money and this is why he was
16 dismissed. I know this person very little. We used to work at the same
17 post office. Maybe we would sit together at the post office."
18 Do you agree with the statement of Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski?
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 Q. Is it correct that you sat with Blagoja Stojanovski at the In
21 Direkta [phoen] cafe near the sports centre Partizan in Cair and he spoke
22 to you about the events at Ljubanci village?
23 A. Correct. And every day after working hours we went to that cafe,
24 all of us, workers of the post office.
25 Q. Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski stated: "We never sat together outside of
1 the post office at any cafe or a bar when the Defence asked about the
2 person Fatmir Kamberi."
3 So could you agree with me that Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski states
4 that he never went to a cafe or a bar with you?
5 A. I will tell you, and you can be convinced that every day after
6 working hours, he was there. He is a drunkard; he drinks a lot of
7 alcohol. And you can ask anybody working at the post office, whether
8 Blagoja Stojanovski drinks or not.
9 Q. But Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski states that he never sat with you
10 together. Is that correct?
11 A. No, that is not correct. It is not. I swear it is not correct.
12 We stayed together 200 times at the least.
13 Q. Is it correct that you had indicated in your statement that
14 Mr. Johan Tarculovski made a speech in the school-yard in Ljubanci and
15 that Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski had seen that speech and then he communicated
16 that to you. Is that correct?
17 A. Listen, all the words I have stated in my statements -- in my
18 statement I'm not denying here. According to what Blagoja Stojanovski
19 said, I was not there in the Ljubance. I did not see anything with my own
20 eyes, but because of the alcohol and he was also involved in arguments
21 with people and fights because of the alcohol, and he said things about
22 Ljuboten, the war in Ljuboten and Ljubance. How could I say these
23 sentences? I'm repeating again. This is according to his words because I
24 was not present there, I did not see anything myself. He was completely
1 Q. But Mr. -- however, Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski states that
2 Johan Tarculovski is known to him because his parents come from his
3 village, and "I know him now as person arrested by the ICTY." And,
4 further, on he states: "I haven't seen this person at the village of
5 Ljubanci at August 10 to 12, 2001. Even if he had been there, I did not
6 see him. There was a huge crowd of people."
7 Is this in contradiction with what you stated to the ICTY
8 investigators, in relation to what Blagoja Stojanovski stated to you in
9 relation to -- or about the Ljuboten events at August 10 to 12, 2001?
10 Is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is correct. According to his words. Again, I will
12 repeat: I did not see it myself, I was not present there to see who
13 spoke, who held a speech and who participated. But according to
14 Blagoja Stojanovski's words, that's what happened. I don't know anything
15 further. Whatever he told me, I related. I didn't add anything, I did not
16 take away anything.
17 Q. In your statement, you say that there is a family relation between
18 him and Johan Tarculovski; that is, between Blagoja Stojanovski and
19 Johan Tarculovski. Is this correct?
20 A. Correct. Every time when he spoke he said, He's my bratucet, my
21 uncle's son. I don't know whether this is true or not.
22 Q. However, Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski in his statement says the
23 following, that Johan Tarculovski is known to him because his parents come
24 from his village and now I know him as one of the detainees The Hague
25 Tribunal. Would you agree with me that Mr. Blagoja Stojanovski states
1 that he has no kinship relation with Johan Tarculovski and this is
2 completely in contradiction with what you have stated?
3 A. Well, I cannot force him to be his uncle's son. His mouth uttered
4 these words. So how can I say that of my own will? How can I say Tahir
5 Hasani, an ex-person, is my uncle's son if he is not? I did not create
6 this. I don't really know whether he was a cousin or whether he was
7 boasting about it. Maybe they were or they are cousins. What I'm
8 relating here are his words and his words were that, He is my bratucet, my
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
11 no further questions for this witness.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.
13 Ms. Regue.
14 MS. REGUE: Could we have displayed Exhibit P5. It's the same
15 photo that my learned colleague showed but without the markings.
16 Re-examination by Ms. Regue:
17 Q. Mr. Kamberi, you were asked about the bullet casings that we can
18 see in the photo. You started explaining there were also more bullet
19 casings elsewhere when you went to the house of Rami Jusufi afterwards.
20 Where did you see these other bullet casings?
21 A. I saw the other casings at the iron gate, the one that takes you
22 from the street into the yard, and every house in that neighbourhood by
23 the road, the shop included, the shop near the bus-stop, they had locks
24 and these locks were destroyed by firing from a short distance with
25 Kalashnikovs. The entire street was full of casings. I'm not speaking
1 about Rami Jusufi's gate only, the entire road had casings.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Interrupt you and let's focus
3 now on Rami Jusufi's case. Did you see also bullets somewhere else, in
4 addition to near the gate?
5 A. At the iron gate, the one that you can see here before the
6 entrance to the house and a little bit more in the rear, there is a
7 fountain, water fountain there, and there there were also some casings.
8 Q. Maybe if we could have the usher's assistance with the pens or...
9 You could please draw a circle where you saw the bullets and then
10 write different numbers in the different locations.
11 A. I cannot see that place here.
12 Q. Could you please draw an arrow indicating the direction where was
13 the gate.
14 A. 1, it is in this direction.
15 Q. Could you please draw an arrow indicating the direction.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. And could you please write number 2.
18 A. You cannot see the place itself here on the photograph, but two
19 metres from the place where the casings are, more in the rear, there is a
20 water fountain, and there is a concrete fence, and there there were
21 casings too.
22 Q. Could you please write number 2 next to the arrow so we know that
23 you are referring to the water container?
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Did you see bullet casings somewhere else?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you see any bullet impact?
3 A. Yes. There were bullet impacts. As I said, the padlock of the
4 main gate was destroyed by bullet impact. And also, at the entry to the
5 house, to the hall of the house, there was a bullet impact on the
6 window-frame, and the door itself is made of wood and there are some
7 traces of bullets there as well. And opposite to the hall, they had their
8 kitchen and some bullets hit that kitchen too.
9 Q. Okay. Mr. Kamberi, when you refer to the door, are you referring
10 to the wooden door that we can see at the end of this photograph?
11 A. Yes. I saw the holes there and also on the gate by the main road.
12 The padlock had these traces of bullet impact, as they were trying to
13 unlock the gate by using Kalashnikovs.
14 Q. Obviously we cannot see the gate here, but if you could please
15 draw a circle in the wooden door where you saw the impacts and write
16 number 3 next to it.
17 A. However, you cannot see the bullet-holes here, only the window on
18 the right-hand side, while the holes near the padlock cannot be seen
19 clearly on the picture.
20 Q. Okay. Could you please write number 3. Thanks.
21 MS. REGUE: I would like to tender into evidence this photo, Your
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P429, Your Honours.
25 MS. REGUE: No more questions.
1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.
2 You will be -- is there any scope for re-examination, I'm sorry.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: So you will be very pleased, Mr. Kamberi,
5 that this brings an end to your examination. You are free to go home now
6 and to return to your activities.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.
8 Do I have the right to pose a question to the Defence, a brief
10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: No, that's not possible in the
11 proceedings here. You may discuss this after the hearing, but not at this
12 moment in time.
13 So the usher will now show you out and we thank you for your
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me to say something to all
16 those present in this courtroom.
17 They say that in the village of Ljuboten, and they insist, in
18 fact, that there was NLA in the village, I would just say one thing for
19 all of you. There was no NLA in Ljuboten village. The NLA --
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much, Mr. Kamberi, that is
21 the end of your evidence. Thank you very much.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- wherever the NLA entered, free
23 zones were proclaimed afterwards.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Saxon, I see we have seven minutes
1 left. Is this still a useful moment to call your new witness?
2 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour. Our next witness is arriving in The
3 Hague probably right about this moment, so he will be ready to testify
4 tomorrow morning, Dr. Stein.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: So we will then adjourn for the day and
6 resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.37 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of
9 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.