1 Thursday, 6 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning to you all.
7 Judge Parker is unable to sit today, so again Judge Thelin and
8 myself will sit alone.
9 Before we start with the witness I understand that Mr. Tarculovski
10 has to make a submission through Mr. Apostolski.
11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we could go to a
12 private session for a brief period.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes, private.
14 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning, sir. May I ask you to read
7 the affirmation is on the card before you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: KLAUS STEIN
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 MR. DOBBYN: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 For the record, the Prosecution is calling the witness Dr. Klaus
14 Stein, witness number M 166.
15 Examination by Mr. Dobbyn:
16 Q. Good morning, Dr. Stein. Just for the record is your name
17 Dr. Klaus Stein?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you please briefly describe your educational and
20 professional background.
21 A. I finished my school studies in 1981 and then I served in the army
22 for 15 months and then studied chemistry, and in -- five years later I
23 graduated and then I finished my doctorate in this subject, and two months
24 after finishing my doctorate, I began working as an expert for chemistry
25 at the Bavarian police. My speciality are explosives and drugs.
1 Q. And you're currently employed with the Bavarian place at this
3 A. Yes, that was my first job and I'm still there as civilian
5 Q. And on 24 February 2006, did you prepare a report which contained
6 your expert opinion on two particular questions, the first being: What
7 origins may be causal for nitrate or nitrite deposits on the hands of
8 persons? And the second question being: Is it possible that persons have
9 nitrate or nitrite deposits on their hands if they have previously been
10 exposed to the reaction clouds of military explosives or if they have
11 manual contact with objects being exposed to the reaction clouds.
12 Did you prepare a report regarding these issues?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. DOBBYN: And, Your Honours, we have prepared binders for
15 Dr. Stein's testimony and with the usher's assistance, we'd like to
16 distribute those now.
17 Now, can we please show the witness 65 ter 361, which is also at
18 tab 2 of today's binder.
19 Q. Dr. Stein, on the screen in front of you you will see the first
20 page of a document and you have the entire document in front of you at tab
21 2. The document that is in front of you, is this the report that you
22 prepared on 24 February 2006?
23 A. Yes, that is my report.
24 Q. And does this report also have attached to it a series of
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. DOBBYN: Can we please show 65 ter 362 which is at tab 3 of
3 the witness binder.
4 Q. Dr. Stein, the photographs that you have in front of you, do you
5 recognise these as being the attachment to your report of 24 February
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And were these photographs referenced and relied upon in your
10 A. Yes, that's correct. This is the diphenylamine test.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. DOBBYN: At this time, Your Honours, I would seek to tender
13 the report which is 65 ter 361 as well as the attachment which is 65 ter
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
16 MR. DOBBYN: Dr. Stein, with regards to the first question --
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 361 will become Exhibit P430
18 and 65 ter 362 will become Exhibit P431, Your Honours.
19 MR. DOBBYN: I apologise for jumping the gun there.
20 Q. Dr. Stein, with regards to the first question in your report, that
21 is, the possible origins of nitrite/nitrate on the hands of persons you
22 described using a diphenylamine test. Can you please explain, just in
23 general terms, what that test involves and how it works?
24 A. The diphenylamine test reacts to nitrate or nitrite with a colour
25 reaction. The oxidization qualities of nitrates and nitrites are turned
1 blue. The test is quite sensitive but not specific. Other substances
2 cause the same reaction.
3 Q. So to pick up on that point, Dr. Stein, you say that the
4 diphenylamine test is not specific for nitrates and nitrites. Is that
6 A. Yes, that is correct.
7 Q. What other substances would return a positive result from such a
9 A. There are, for instance cleansing agents, with hypochlorites which
10 is an oxidizer, this test would give a positive result because I've
11 carried out such tests. Also, iron(III), a part of rust, component of
12 rust, would have a positive result. Herbicides, for instance, with
13 chlorates, which are still allowed in some countries but not in my
15 Q. Thank you, Dr. Stein.
16 Now, with regards to your report, you referred to nitrates and
17 nitrites. Can you explain whether there are any significant difference
18 between nitrates and nitrites for purposes of the diphenylamine test?
19 A. No, there's no difference for this test. The only difference
20 would be in that there is one more part of the molecule added in the one,
21 but the test has the same result.
22 Q. So for the purposes of today's testimony if I refer only to one,
23 for example, nitrates, your answer would be the name for nitrites?
24 A. Yes, exactly.
25 Q. And using only the diphenylamine test, can one establish with any
1 degree of certainty whether a positive result is caused by the presence of
2 nitrate particles?
3 A. As I said, there are also other substances which would cause a
4 positive reaction, so you couldn't say that.
5 Q. And to take that one step further, again, using only the
6 diphenylamine test can one establish with any degree of certainty whether
7 a positive result was caused by gunpowder residue?
8 A. One could say that it is possible with gunpowder residue but with
9 other substances too.
10 Q. So to summarize what you have told us so far would it be correct
11 to say that the diphenylamine test would more accurately be termed a
12 pre-test for nitrites and nitrates?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In Germany, is the diphenylamine test used to detect the presence
15 of nitrites and nitrates?
16 A. No. We have a more specific test, which is called Lang [phoen]
17 reagent, in which substances are put into an ammonium salts substance.
18 It's only for nitrite, where nitrate has to be altered before it could be
19 used. But this test is much more sensitive.
20 Q. From the knowledge that you have at this time, are you aware of a
21 procedure known as the paraffin glove test?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know how the paraffin glove test is performed?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And does the paraffin glove test also use diphenylamine to detect
1 the presence of nitrate particles?
2 A. Yes, the paraffin test removes the particles and then the
3 diphenylamine test is used for the reaction itself.
4 Q. So the paraffin glove test also uses diphenylamine; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And would the paraffin glove test be subject to the same
8 limitations have you described already for the diphenylamine test?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. And are you aware that in 2001 the paraffin glove test was the
11 method used by the Macedonian police to test for the presence of nitrates
12 on the hands of persons?
13 A. Yes, I read about that.
14 MR. DOBBYN: Now, could we please display for the doctor Exhibit
15 P0050 which is also 65 ter number 15.7. It is located in tab 6 of today's
16 binder, and in e-court it's at page 25 in English, and page 101 in
18 Q. And just before we go on that document I would like to turn back
19 to something you said earlier. Page 6, I asked you about whether it could
20 be established with any degree the certainty that gunshot residue is
21 present from the diphenylamine test. If a test returned a positive
22 result, could you say with certainty that this was caused by gunshot
24 A. No, you can't.
25 Q. So that would just be one of a number of possibilities?
1 A. Yes, exactly.
2 Q. Thank you. Now turning to the document that's on the screen in
3 front of you and that is also at tab 6 of the binder, I'll just run
4 through it quickly with you.
5 You'll see that at the top left it says, "Republic of Macedonia,
6 Ministry of Interior, criminological police, criminal techniques
7 department." It's dated 27 August, 2001. It goes on to mention the names
8 of particular individuals.
9 Then in the third paragraph it states: "The detection of traces
10 of gunpowder particles is done through identifying the nitrate particles
11 they contain, a component of gunpowder, with the use of the identification
12 reagent for nitrate, diphenylamine."
13 Do you see that, Doctor?
14 A. Yes I do.
15 Q. And then in the next paragraph it continues: "Regarding the
16 number of sources in everyday life of a person where contamination with
17 nitrate particles can occur, their presence on the hands of a person is an
18 indication that that person has fired a fire-arm."
19 Do you see that, Doctor?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. And the last paragraph reads: "Based on their form, location and
22 position, it can be determined with a great probability that these nitrate
23 particles originate from gunpowder."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 MR. DOBBYN: Can we please look at another document now. This is
2 Exhibit P0050 also. It is 65 ter number 15.8. It's in tab 7 of today's
3 binder, and it's at e-court page 26 in English and page 102 in Macedonian.
4 Q. Perhaps at this time I will continue with the -- just using the
5 document that in the folder in front of you.
6 Doctor, you'll see that this letter is almost identical to the
7 previous document. Again it says Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of
8 Interior, it's dated 27 August 2001, and it's addressed to Basic Court
9 Skopje II. And, Doctor, can you see from looking at it that the last
10 three paragraphs are identical to the last three paragraphs of the
11 previous document you saw?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. DOBBYN: And if can we can leave this document up for the
15 doctor to refer to.
16 Can we go back to paragraph 3 of this document. There is the
17 paragraph starting: "The detection of traces of gunpowder particles, et
19 Q. To put this paragraph in the context of what you have already
20 stated, using the diphenylamine test alone, can one determine whether a
21 substance is a nitrate particle?
22 A. Well, one can't, of course. It could be nitrate, but it could be
23 a couple of other things as well.
24 Q. And if we move on now to the fourth paragraph I would ask you to
25 focus on that, and there it states: "Regarding the limited number of
1 sources in everyday life of a person where contamination with nitrate
2 particles can occur ... " and so on, Doctor, based on your training and
3 experience would you agree with this statement that in the course of one's
4 everyday life there's little likelihood that a person would come into
5 contact with substances containing nitrates?
6 A. No, quite the opposite, that does not reflect what we have learned
7 in our forensic training that when there is a positive colour result you
8 can immediately draw conclusions about this possibility.
9 Q. And in the course of preparing your expert report, did you perform
10 any experiments to test this out?
11 A. Yes. I used some chemicals from daily life, and a test with
12 sterols also shows a positive result.
13 Q. And can you recall what other substances, if any, returned
14 positive results?
15 A. Yes. Well, cleaning agents, as I mentioned before, which contain
16 hypochlorite; rust, which is a component that one can always be in contact
17 with; weed killers; herbicides, they contain chlorates; fertiliser,
18 especially -- several fertilisers, they're organic as well and are based
19 on nitrates, and if one is in contact with fertiliser, then the positive
20 will -- the test will always be positive; pottery with glazing, that has
21 brown stone which a mild oxidant; manganese dioxide and there again the
22 test would be positive; curing salts, that's based on nitrite, in small
23 concentration so one wouldn't expect the test to be strongly positive, but
24 there's sufficient of the substance there for there to be a clear-colour
25 reaction. And then for the rest, they're only explosives.
1 Q. And is this an exhaustive list of all the possible substances that
2 could produce a positive result?
3 A. No. There are others. For example, I'm just thinking, because
4 often we have false alarms at airports. There are a few types of perfume
5 based on nitro-aromates, TNT is a nitro-aromate, and there the possibility
6 of distinction, well, in airports you have to be really fast and it's
7 difficult to make a distinction and if you use this -- if that substance
8 goes through the detectors there is an immediate TNT alarm that goes off.
9 I haven't been able to prove this, but based on the chemical composition
10 and the basis is the same and therefore one would expect this test to be
11 positive as well.
12 Q. Thank you, Doctor.
13 MR. DOBBYN: If I could just have one second.
14 If we could show the recently admitted exhibit, 431. And this is
15 in tab 3 of today's binder, and I'd ask that we go to page 20, which has
16 ERN N002-5818. Sorry, it would be the page before that.
17 Q. Doctor, do you recognise this photograph?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And what does this photograph show?
20 A. That's the diphenylamine test with gunpowder.
21 Q. And the blue colour indicates a positive result?
22 A. Yes, it does. In this case, strong positive reaction. At the
23 bottom, you just see a light blue colouring, so the bottom part shows less
24 of the substance present.
25 MR. DOBBYN: And could we now go to page four of the same exhibit
1 which is ERN N002-5803?
2 Q. And, Doctor, what does this photograph show?
3 A. That's the diphenylamine test with potassium chlorate which is a
4 component of weed killer.
5 Q. And this test also indicates a positive result; is that right?
6 A. Yes, it does.
7 MR. DOBBYN: And now could we go to page 1 of the same exhibit
8 with ERN N002-5801.
9 Q. And, Doctor, what substance is shown here in this test?
10 A. That's a hypochlorite, a component of cleaning agents.
11 Q. And, again, does the light blue colour here indicate a positive
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DOBBYN: And we could leave this exhibit up, I will be
16 referring to other pages in it shortly.
17 Q. And, Doctor, as part of your expert report, you address the
18 question of whether it is possible that persons could have nitrate
19 deposits on their hands of they have manual contact with objects that have
20 previously been exposed to reaction clouds of military explosives. Now
21 did you perform any experiments to test whether contamination can result
22 from manual contact with substances?
23 A. Yes, we did that.
24 Q. And could you describe how you perform these tests?
25 A. The substances were put into contact with hand, with a hand, and
1 then we used cling film to take a sample of the traces from the hand, and
2 we sprayed this cling film with the diphenylamine reagent, with a soaking
3 time of a couple of minutes, and after that, the test proved positive.
4 Q. And from what you know, is the method you used in this test
5 comparable to the method used when performing the paraffin glove test?
6 A. The paraffin test is -- uses wax, and cling film uses cling film.
7 But it's only a sampling method of the traces that remain on the hand.
8 And of course the two are comparable.
9 Q. Could you tell us what substances, if any, returns a positive
10 result using this test?
11 A. I carried out the test with -- with fertilisers on a nitrate basis
12 that was pure ammonium nitrate so it would be expected, to be expected
13 that there would be a strong positive reaction. Then we used it on rust,
14 where we just used scrap steel and put it in contact with a hand, took
15 samples. Again, there was a positive test, but before there's a positive
16 reaction everything has to be resolved and when the test is done on rust,
17 it is a little bit more difficult. You don't find as much -- the test
18 will be positive but not as strongly positive as the ones before.
19 Then we used it on curing -- cured foodstuffs, salami and ham, and
20 here it is to be expected that the test would be positive but only
21 sporadically, so it is not evenly distributed because there's not a lot of
22 nitrate in curing salts. There's about 100 milligrams per kilogramme of
23 meat of nitrite. Those two were positive as well, and then we took
24 samples of explosive residues, for TNT residues, for example, from an
25 exploded hand-grenade from Yugoslavia, there was 100 grams of TNT as an
1 explosive substance and the many fragments were touched by a hand and
2 samples were taken and, again, there was a positive result sporadically
3 which we expected.
4 PETN, penthrite residues from the M75 hand-grenades here, again,
5 we had a positive result. In this case there was a question of self-made
6 bomb, hand-grenade, an IED, and the reaction was very positive. There
7 was, in the residues that we sampled, there was a lot of explosive
8 substance left. Then gunpowder residues, there, we just burned the powder
9 off which is the same as what happens inside the grenade and because it
10 was burned off and it was not under pressure we had a lot of non-burned
11 particles which led to a very positive test. And then finally, we used a
12 substance that was shot at from 25 centimetres and that was immediately
13 sprayed with reagent and again there was this uneven distribution and here
14 you can see at sight how small the particles are within this shoot --
15 firing area.
16 Q. Thank you. And, again, from your experience would this be an
17 exhaustive list of substances that you would expect to return a positive
18 result from manual contact?
19 A. Well, it's more than that, but I haven't done all 20 tests. It's
20 a logical corollary that, of course, that would work as well.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DOBBYN: And if we could please see page 27 of the exhibit
23 which is currently up, Exhibit P431, that has ERN N002-5825.
24 Sorry, we're looking for page 27. It should be the page before
25 this. Thank you.
1 Q. Doctor, what does the photograph on the screen in front of you
3 A. That's the test we did with gunpowder, but we shook out the
4 gunpowder, half a gramme, say, and we just fired it, and brought the
5 residue in contact with the hand and then we took samples. And that's why
6 it is so strongly positive.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. DOBBYN: And can we go to page 22 of the same exhibit, which
9 is ERN N002-5820. And can I have -- thank you.
10 Q. Doctor, what does this photograph show?
11 A. That's a sampling from rust with normal ion particles and there's
12 rust on the surface and these particles were touched very briefly by a
13 hand. Rust is absorbed very quickly. It's iron oxide. And then samples
14 were taken and sprayed with the reagent and as expected, the test was
16 Q. So, Doctor, the scattering of light blue spots that we see on the
17 outline of the hand here, these indicate particles that have tested
19 A. Yes, these are rust particles.
20 MR. DOBBYN: And can we turn now to page 25 of this exhibit.
21 Q. And, Doctor, what does this photograph show?
22 A. That was residue from TNT on an exploded hand-grenade. M52 from
23 Yugoslavia contains TNT. And here we had an unevenly distributed positive
25 Q. And could you describe exactly how the manual contact was made in
1 this particular test?
2 A. There were many hand-grenade fragments that were collected, over
3 100, I think, and they were put into a dish, and these particles were
4 touched by a hand and then the samples were taken with adhesive film.
5 Q. So this is simply done by picking up fragments of an exploded
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. And on the test we see two blue spots and these are the spots that
9 indicate TNT particles; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, based on your experience, if a positive
12 diphenylamine test is produced, what sort of test would then need to be
13 done in order to establish the precise source of that positive result?
14 A. Well, then you need to continue. We have a forensic technique
15 that's been well proven and now we need to use a procedure which
16 identifies the substances that have come up in the colour test, and in our
17 department we use the OCMS -- MS method, liquid chromatography mass
18 spectrometry, it's a method which is more sensitive than diphenylamine by
19 an exponent of five to ten, and it not only works with colour detection.
20 It produces mass fragments and you can exactly pinpoint from what origin
21 they come. And this only -- that's the only possibility to say with
22 certainty whether it was TNT or not.
23 Q. And that would likewise refer to nitrate or gunpowder particles.
24 A. Yes, that's what we would do. Well, that is our job. We must
25 always be able to find 100 per cent proof of what substance has been fired
1 or burned or ignited, and if we don't find a result, you can't draw
2 conclusions. You have no proof.
3 Q. Now I'd just like to ask you a few hypothetical situations and
4 this is based on your experience and what have you testified to and what
5 is contained in your report.
6 If people were in a relatively small area such as a village shells
7 and mortars exploding in that area would it be possible for people other
8 than those firing such weapons to be contaminated by touching objects that
9 had been contaminated also in that area?
10 A. Yes, that's perfectly possible.
11 Q. Could people become contaminated through being touched by others
12 who had such particles on their hands?
13 A. That's possible too, because these contaminants are not burned
14 into the skin. They're just loosely on the surface of the hand.
15 Q. And could persons become contaminated if they were hit or struck
16 with fire-arms or other weapons?
17 A. What do you mean by "hit"?
18 Q. If a weapon was used to strike a person's hand, arm or other part
19 of the body, could particles, nitrate particles then end up on that
20 person's body?
21 A. Yes, especially when shells are fired, cartridges.
22 Q. Thank you. That clarified what I meant there.
23 Now, is it also possible that persons could become contaminated if
24 they were transported in vehicles where weapons had already been
1 A. It's always a hypothetical possibility to be in contact with
2 residue in a vehicle.
3 Q. And if people were to become contaminated in any of these ways
4 that we've just discussed if they were tested using a diphenylamine test,
5 would it return a positive result for nitrates or for oxidizing agents?
6 A. Oh, yes, absolutely. Inasmuch as there's sufficient of the
7 substance possible, because there is always a detection limit and when you
8 go across the detection limit, then the test will be positive.
9 Q. And if we can just go back to the photograph which is on the
10 screen in front of you.
11 This is it the result from the diphenylamine test where a person
12 picked up a fragment of an exploded grenade, and here we can see two
13 particles on the adhesive glove taken from that hand. Now would this be
14 comparable to what you might expect to see if a person had become
15 contaminated in any of the ways that we've just talked about?
16 A. Yes. It won't be distributed over the entire surface of the hand.
17 There will be small particles present and this is to do with the reaction
18 of the explosive. Just imagine how this works. If the explosive is made
19 into a hand-grenade in a cartridge the reaction starts but it doesn't
20 reach full velocity, only after a few microseconds is it at full velocity.
21 So all traces wherever the cartridge was, in that area, there you have
22 strong presence of residue. But it is already detonated then you have
23 hardly any residue left at all on the fragments and it is difficult to
24 distinguish the two. You just need to be lucky. You always have to look
25 at the fragments of the hand-grenade where you can find the winding, the
1 thread, and the detonators are. That's where you have the biggest chance
2 of finding explosive residue. In other parts, it will always be
3 difficult. And then of course not all explosives, nitrates are the same,
4 we happen to touch two particles by hand with high amounts of residue, and
5 two that weren't so that's why it is so unevenly distributed over the
6 hand. That is quite a typical picture.
7 Q. So would it be correct that any type of contact that we're been
8 talking about, it is much more likely that would you a small number of
9 particles, such as in this photo, rather than a much larger number?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And would it be possible that you would see a similar sort of
12 result of a few particles on the back of a person's hand as well as on the
14 A. Depending on where the contamination happened on the hand, yes.
15 You can't foretell. Wherever the contact took place, that's where I will
16 find a positive reaction.
17 Q. Thank you, Doctor.
18 MR. DOBBYN: I have no more questions at this time.
19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Mettraux.
21 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux:
23 Q. Good morning, Doctor. I have a few questions for you, but before
24 that I would like to introduce you to my lead counsel, Ms. Edina
25 Residovic, and together we are representing Mr. Boskoski.
1 Doctor, you have indicated in your report and in your evidence in
2 chief the limitations of the diphenylamine test. In particular, in regard
3 to its ability to identify the exact origin of the particle that has been
4 identified. And you have also indicated that to ensure greater certainty
5 in that regard you would need to combine this test with a mechanism of
6 visual identification. Is that correct?
7 A. Not visual identification, but instrumental, analytical, yes.
8 Q. And this instrumental or analytical identification mechanism,
9 there are quite a few, is that correct, Doctor, some more reliable than
11 A. [No interpretation]
12 Q. I think your answer was not picked by the transcript, if you could
13 repeat your answer?
14 A. Could you repeat it?
15 Q. The question was this instrumental or analytical identification
16 mechanism, there are quite a few, is that correct, Doctor, some more
17 reliable than others?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you aware, Doctor --
20 A. Of course.
21 Q. Thank you. Are you aware, Doctor, what particular identification
22 mechanism had been used by the Macedonian authorities in this particular
24 A. Yes. We used a microscope.
25 Q. And, Doctor, if the --
1 A. Used --
2 Q. If the Macedonian experts who carried out those tests were to
3 suggest that they, thanks to their experience and professional abilities
4 were able to identify or to distinguish between different type of
5 particles, you would have no reason to challenge that assertion. Is that
7 A. That's a difficult question, because I don't use microscopic
8 analysis. That is not my area of expertise, to find microscopic proof,
9 and I'm not the right person to answer that question. Dr. Eichner was
10 here a couple of days ago. He does a lot of microscopic work. And there
11 are some possibilities, okay, I'm not an expert. I can give you a
12 position, but I'm not an expert.
13 Q. Well, in that case I will move on from this area of questioning.
14 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I will simply draw the Chamber's
15 attention to submissions that were made on the 20th of June of 2007 at
16 page 2436 and 2437 in relation to an application by the Prosecution to
17 withdraw Ms. Kunovska as an expert, and I'm sure that the Chamber is well
18 aware of the submissions that were made at that time.
19 Q. Doctor, did you have any information at the time about the nature
20 or origin of the nitrite particles relevant to the Ljuboten case? Did you
21 have information as to where those particles had originated from?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. And, Doctor, did you have any information as to the means of
24 transmission which was relevant to this particular case or not?
25 A. No. I just received information from Dr. Eichner that there was
1 strong shelling of a small village, and that the procedures used by the
2 Macedonian police with sampling and so on, what procedures they had used.
3 In written form, very briefly, I had a one-page information.
4 Q. I'm grateful, Doctor. You have given evidence about the number of
5 particles which could or would or might be found on a person's body parts
6 and you have indicated that, depending on the substance which would be
7 analysed, the number of particles could vary. Do you recall?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is it also -- thank you, Doctor. Is it also correct that the
10 number of particles that would be observed at the time of the test could
11 be the result of external factors such as the weather, if it rains for
12 instance, or the activities of the person being tested. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes. Because these residues, as much as they are not ignited, are
14 loosely distributed, and if there is strong wind or weather conditions you
15 can lose the traces.
16 Q. Doctor, you have been shown a number of pictures already and I
17 would like to show you three more.
18 MR. METTRAUX: If the witness could be shown what is 1D4 -- I'm
19 sorry, 1D545.
20 Q. Doctor, are you familiar with the appearance of propellant which
21 are to be found in cartridges?
22 A. [No interpretation]
23 Q. Well, Doctor, if the picture ever appears, I will ask you a
24 question about this particular matter.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Are you familiar, Doctor, with that type of propellant? Is that a
2 type of propellant that you had seen before?
3 A. Yes, that's what it looks. Propellant has various forms and we
4 have the cylindrical forms and this only is used for firing, to propel the
5 projectile from the weapon. And depending on how high the speed this is,
6 the more the propellant differs. This is because the larger the surface,
7 the faster does the shot come from the weapon. And because there are
8 various possibilities there are different kinds of propellant. You can
9 determine with what speed the projectile has left the weapon, and
10 depending on that, the surfaces will differ.
11 Q. And you would agree, Doctor, that this particular picture of
12 propellant is a picture of propellant that has not been burned. In other
13 words, it is intact propellant as you would find it in a cartridge; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. And you've indicated, Doctor, that there are different sorts of
17 propellant that can be found in cartridges. Is that correct, however,
18 that in a single cartridge the propellant would in fact be consistent in
19 size and shape as is the case with this picture?
20 A. Yes. The same charge would be used for the same firing arm.
21 MR. METTRAUX: If the witness could now please be shown what is
22 1D546, please. We will come back to this picture.
23 Q. Doctor, would you agree on the picture that have you in front of
24 you, that this is quite a common visual appearance of burned, and for some
25 of them partly burned, and in one case unaffected propellant grain from a
1 cartridge. Is that a visual appearance or visual image that you're
2 familiar with?
3 A. Yes, I've seen this.
4 Q. And is it correct, Doctor, that after a bullet has been fired, it
5 is quite common to have that pattern of some propellant particles being
6 burned, some unburned and some completely combusted; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that happens.
8 Q. And such observation as to the state of the particles in question
9 may be done by visual inspection, Doctor?
10 A. Well, if you know the background you could draw that conclusion.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Including with a microscope.
12 Is that correct, Doctor?
13 A. Yes. If you do that kind of test often as is always the case in
14 life, one gains experience, and then the pictures tell their story.
15 Q. I'd like to go back to the previous picture, Doctor, please.
16 MR. METTRAUX: If the Registry could assist. It's 1D454.
17 Q. There's another picture, Doctor, I'd like to show you. It would
18 be the second page, please. Thank you very much.
19 Doctor, is it correct that particles of TNT are, so to say,
20 flake-like in appearance such as the ones that appear on your screen right
22 A. Yes, it can be the case or not, because TNT is used in various
23 forms. There are these flaky forms but it can be compressed as well. In
24 hand-grenades, it's compressed. Just think: The more compact the sample,
25 the faster will it convert.
1 Q. Is it also correct, Doctor, that in a single -- I apologise to the
2 interpreters. Is that correct, Doctor, that within a single explosive
3 charge the different particles of TNT explosive would vary greatly in size
4 and shape as is demonstrated by this picture. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honours, we have no further question.
7 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor.
8 MR. METTRAUX: Just a matter, if we could tender both pictures.
9 They are 1D545 and 1D546, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: They will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter numbers 1D00545 and 1D00546
12 will become exhibit numbers 1D148 and 1D149 respectively.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.
14 Mr. Apostolski.
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Klaus Stein. My name is
18 Antonio Apostolski and together with my colleague Jasmina Zivkovic we
19 appear on behalf of Mr. Johan Tarculovski.
20 Doctor, you stated hypothetically that it was possible for the
21 persons who were subjected, who were in an area where there was huge
22 shelling, who were transported in cars where weapons were transported and
23 those who were hit by rifle-butts, that it was possible that they were
24 contaminated by nitrate particles. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. I would like to ask you now whether it is correct that if several
2 persons, for instance, some 30 persons, were subjected to the same
3 circumstances, such as I mentioned before, so having been present in an
4 area of shelling, having been transported in same cars, and having been
5 hit with rifle-butts, would that mean that all of them would have residues
6 of nitrates?
7 A. If they had direct contact with the substance, it is possible, but
8 the essential factor is the contact for the test to function.
9 Q. If I were to tell you that out of 33 people who were in the same
10 circumstances such as I have mentioned before, just on 16 of them nitrate
11 particles were shown, would that mean that just those 16 out of the whole
12 lot had contact with the nitrate particles, although they were subjected
13 to the same circumstances of stay, movement, and circumstances such as
14 having been hit with rifle-butts?
15 A. This would show simply that the -- the people with a negative test
16 result were not -- did not come in contact with the nitrate particles.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you.
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.
21 Mr. Dobbyn.
22 MR. DOBBYN: I have no further questions at this time,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.
25 Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this brings your examination
1 to an end. You are now free to go.
2 Thank you very much for your help.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay. [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours. The Prosecution's next
7 witness is Albanian speaking and because of the demands of other trials,
8 it is my understanding there is no interpreter, Albanian interpreter
9 available today, due to scheduling. It was not anticipated that this
10 witness would take -- would be so short. Therefore, with the consent of
11 the Chamber, we will call our next witness, Mr. Rexhepi, tomorrow morning
12 at 9.00.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. We will adjourn until tomorrow
14 morning, 9.00.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.10 a.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of
17 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.