1 Thursday, 13 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 If I could remind you, General, the affirmation you made at the

8 beginning of your evidence still applies.

9 Ms. Residovic.

10 WITNESS: ZORAN JOVANOVSKI [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours

13 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jovanovski.

15 Do you remember, General, that we ended yesterday's evidence by

16 you clarifying to me the position of posebna and the fact that you, too,

17 as the superior of posebna were subordinated to the army of the Republic

18 of Macedonia in the fights in May 2001. Do you recall having said that?

19 A. Yes.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, battles, instead of

21 fights.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I would like to ask you now, General, to look at the court file

24 in -- Roman IV, tab 16, Exhibit P75, R 002 --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] R0424692, and the same number E

2 appended in English.

3 Q. General, this is the decision to establish the posebna unit of the

4 police of the Ministry of the Interior of the 26th of June, 2001. And

5 now I would like to ask you to turn at R0424695, and the English page is

6 the last page, R042-4694-ET. And I kindly ask you to look at paragraph 15

7 where you can see that when this decision enters into force the validity

8 of the decision passed on the 2nd of June, 2003 is terminated; so do you

9 agree with me that this decision shows and confirms what you testified

10 about that posebna existed for a number of years before the -- this

11 decision was passed? Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, it is correct.

13 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the second page of this

14 decision, that is, R042-4693, Macedonian page, and the English page

15 R042-4693-ET.

16 Actually, I apologise, it will be 4692-ET.

17 It is the paragraph 6 here that I wish to show to you, and ask you

18 about it.

19 The Article 6 specifies the command and -- the commanding and the

20 basic composition of the posebna unit and it states that the -- what is

21 posebna unit made of. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The paragraph 2 of this item 6 speaks about the composition of the

24 Battalion Skopje. Do you see this?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Considering the office you held in 2001, first in the posebna and

2 then in the police department, during the brief meeting with you I showed

3 you the structure of the posebna Battalion Skopje and you stated that you

4 knew, in general, what this battalion was and what was its composition.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would like to ask you now to look in this binder at the tab 19,

7 which is 65 ter 1D551.2, page 1D5065, while the English is 1D5066.

8 You see here correspondence from the Central Police Services,

9 which they submit upon the request of the Defence of Mr. Boskoski under

10 the item 3, formation inventory of the battalion of posebna, Skopje for

11 the period of July/August 2001. Do you see this?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 20,

14 that is 65 ter 1D552 and that is the page 1D5067, and the English is

15 1D5080.

16 This is, General, the list of all members of the posebna battalion

17 for Skopje as of July and August 2001. Are you familiar with the

18 composition of this battalion, also in 2001?

19 A. Yes, I am familiar with it.

20 Q. And is it correct that the composition of this battalion

21 established in June 2001 was not changed at least until the autumn of

22 2001?

23 A. Some five per cent of the members might have been replaced, due to

24 justified reasons such as sickness or if they left abroad or something,

25 but the commanding structure of this unit was unchanged.

1 Q. And you could accept that the information that the Ministry of the

2 Interior provided that this composition was unchanged in July and August

3 is correct. You could accept that information as correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering these

7 facts, the Defence moves to have these two documents received as Defence

8 exhibits, 65 ter 1D551.2, and 65 ter 1D552.

9 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be exhibit number 1D151 for

12 65 ter 1D00551.2, and exhibit number 1D152, marked for identification for

13 65 ter 1D00552.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understood that

15 you stated that the exhibits are received, while I think that the

16 transcript reads that they are marked for identification.

17 JUDGE PARKER: They will be exhibits.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 Q. General, sir, are you familiar with the name of Goran Gjorgievski?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it correct that he was the head of the department for posebna

22 units in the police department of the Ministry of the Interior in July and

23 August 2001?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know, General, that on the 12th of August, late in the

1 afternoon, there was a risk of a huge clash and high casualties at

2 Radisanski road between the villagers of Ljuboten who were moving towards

3 Skopje and the villagers from the neighbouring villages in the Skopje

4 vicinity who were armed with various instruments and who arrived there in

5 that area. Did you have that information?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you know, General, that in the afternoon, late in the

8 afternoon of that day, General Risto Galevski issued an order to send part

9 of posebna to that region to protect the people, to separate them, and to

10 enable peaceful return of the Ljuboten villagers to their village?

11 A. Yes. In the police jargon, it is called a tampon zone, between

12 two crowds of people.

13 Q. And that order was communicated to Goran Gjorgievski, the leader

14 of posebna, the superior of posebna?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. General, if someone, if some document would state that on the 12th

17 of August the Lions were sent to Ljuboten to separate the crowds, what

18 would you say about that?

19 A. I do not understand. Could you repeat it? I had problems with

20 the interpretation.

21 Q. General, my question is, first, let's go step by step.

22 Are you sure that on that day, upon the order of General Galevski

23 the posebna unit was sent to the area near Radisani?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me, please, if someone would state or if some document would

1 state that it was not posebna, the unit which was sent but the Lions

2 instead, what would you say to that?

3 A. There isn't any such document and the Lions were not established

4 at that time.

5 Q. So this would be absolutely impossible because you have just

6 stated that the Lions had not existed still then. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you.

9 I would like to ask you now to talk about the Lions for a while

10 and there were several witnesses who have testified about this issue

11 before this Court, and numerous documents were received in evidence.

12 Therefore, I will ask you only some specific questions to clarify several

13 issues related to the Lions.

14 I would like to ask to you look now at the table that is in tab

15 Roman numeral V, number 22. This is Exhibit P74, the page is R042-4682,

16 and the English version is 042-4682-ET-01.

17 General, this is a decision of the Ministry of Interior dated 6th

18 of August, 2001, and that is a decision to establish a rapid intervention

19 police battalion of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the page 2 of this

22 document, that is R042-4683, and the English page is - let me just look at

23 the number - 042-4682-ET-02. And I would ask you to look together at the

24 item 4 of this decision.

25 First I would like to ask you whether you know that the

1 Minister Boskoski, on the basis of the decision of the president of the

2 republic and the decision of the government of the Republic of Macedonia

3 issued a decision to establish a rapid interventions battalion?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is this the decision that we have in front of us now?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And this decision establishes the tasks, the procedure of

8 establishment, the composition. Is this what we can see from this

9 decision, if you look at it closely?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the item 4 that I wish to

12 draw your attention. The first paragraph says that the police battalion

13 will be -- rapid intervention police battalion will be populated on a

14 voluntary basis and by secondment from the posebna unit of the Ministry of

15 Interior. Is this the first basis or the first source from which the

16 rapid interventions battalion was established?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you agree, since we spoke about it before, that these

19 members of posebna were actually regular employees with full employment

20 status in the Ministry of the Interior. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The second paragraph reads: "Members of the rapid intervention

23 police battalion from the reserve forces of the Ministry of the Interior

24 will enter into employment contract with the Ministry of the Interior."

25 Does this mean, am I able to understand it well, that the second

1 source from which the rapid interventions battalion will be populated are

2 the reserve forces of the Ministry of Interior?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I wish to ask you to confirm if it is correct that, actually,

5 the reserve forces of the police did not have a full employment status

6 with the Ministry of the Interior when they were only reservists. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes. The reserve forces are called up only in a complex situation

9 or when they need to have a drill and they do not have a full employment

10 status with the Ministry of the Interior.

11 Q. So if I understood you well, the rapid interventions battalion

12 comprised two parts or was composed out of two parts from the Ministry of

13 Interior: The first one were the members who already had employment

14 status, and who belonged to the posebna unit; and the second part came

15 from the members of the Ministry of Interior and they were the activated

16 reserve forces who, until, their enrolment in the rapid interventions

17 battalion, did not have full employment status with the ministry. Is this

18 understanding correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So these police officers from the posebna and who had employment

21 status and also the reserve forces, so the persons who became members of

22 the reserve forces, they were deployed to various crisis regions as early

23 as the beginning of the crisis. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would like to ask you now to look -- to show a video. That is

1 Exhibit P227.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That was enough.

4 Q. You heard --

5 JUDGE PARKER: I would mention for the transcript, Ms. Residovic

6 that apparently that was Exhibit P277, not Exhibit P227.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. So this is Exhibit

8 P277; I apologise.

9 And the transcript of this video recording is in the binder in tab

10 21.

11 Q. General, you can see from this video that this was a parade of the

12 police units. Were you present there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that was in November 2001. Is that correct? At Penus?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. From what the Minister Boskoski stated, the Tigers and -- and the

17 posebna unit and the Lions stood at attention there. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The minister mentioned that they were fighting for nine months.

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. My question is now, General: Considering that we stated that the

23 Lions were created from the existing police, posebna, and the regular

24 forces, that since the beginning of the crisis, participated in the fights

25 in the crisis regions. If I were to say that when the minister stated

1 that those who fought for nine months, would that quote mean that they

2 fought in the composition of the police?

3 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

5 MR. SAXON: It's unclear in this question to which police force

6 Ms. Residovic is referring to. Posebna, Tigers, or Lions, because I

7 believe they were all mentioned or shown in that -- in that video.

8 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreters wish to note that there is

9 interference in our headsets which is growing louder, so if something

10 could be done about it.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The minister says that they were fighting for nine months and the

13 journalists were saying - and I wish to thank my learned friend for

14 correcting me - that here were the members of the Tigers as well. I

15 apologise, by the minister said only nine months. However, in the further

16 text from the text that follows, that is in front of the witness and

17 mentioned the Tigers and other defenders. I really apologise.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

19 reformulate the question that I would like to put forward to the witness.

20 Q. Please tell me, General, when the minister mentioned that they

21 were fighting for nine months whether, regardless of who is -- who is

22 present here, whether the members of the Lions who had been members of the

23 posebna and their reserve forces, were they also participating for nine

24 month in the battles within the composition of the posebna or within the

25 composition of the reserve forces?

1 A. The Rapid Intervention Unit was established, as you mentioned, it

2 was consisted of police officers, reserve force members and other members

3 of the posebna unit. We did not receive many more from the posebna nor

4 from the reserve forces who in the nine month preceding were distinguished

5 or exemplified themselves and proved to be very good in dealing with

6 certain weapons or vehicles and so on.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, we received the major

8 number of people from the posebna.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Would you agree with me if I were to say that among the Lions,

11 when they were established, there was nobody else in it other than the

12 already existing members of the police whether from the posebna or

13 whether from the reserve forces?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. No paramilitary groups became part of the Lions, regardless of the

16 fact whether they existed anywhere in Macedonia.

17 A. Before entering in the Ministry of Interior, before somebody is

18 hired by the Ministry of Interior, we run background checks. These

19 background checks had to be passed by anybody. There was not a single

20 person who had been a member of any kind of organisation that was hired.

21 Q. Yesterday my learned friend the Prosecutor showed you a video that

22 showed the signing of the contract, the hiring contract, of the members of

23 the Rapid Intervention Battalion. Do you remember seeing this movie

24 yesterday when the Prosecutor showed you yesterday?

25 A. I remember watching the video but do not recall exactly whether

1 that was the signing of the employment contracts because it was

2 interrupted. We didn't see it fully.

3 Q. Thank you. Very correct. However, bearing in mind the position

4 that you held, you know that before this event and according -- pursuant

5 to the decision for the establishment of the Rapid Intervention Battalion

6 with the reserve forces, that had already undergone the procedure that was

7 prescribed by the rule book, that with these individuals, that these

8 individuals entered into an employment contract with the Ministry of

9 Interior?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask to you look at this document,

12 which is right after tab 30. This is 65 ter 222, the page is N000-5388,

13 and the English one, the English page is N000-5388-ET. And here you can

14 see the list of individuals between 1 and 182, and the title says: Review

15 of 182 persons that were employed in the Rapid Intervention Battalion,

16 Lavovi, Lions, based on received concurrence by the ministry of finance,

17 number 19-6201/4, dated the 12th of November, 2001.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Since this unit was within the police organisational structure

20 please tell me whether are these individuals and the time at which these

21 members of the reserve forces, after the procedure was implemented were

22 hired and thus became members of the Lions?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I propose that

25 this -- I seek to tender this document in evidence.

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be exhibit number 1D153.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Considering this document relating to which I asked you several

5 questions, would it be correct to say, General, that the procedure of

6 establishing the Lions started with the decision of the minister from

7 August 6, 2001 and continued -- ended at the -- at the middle of November

8 2001?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If there had been a document that said something to the effect

11 that there were groups known as Lions who had been participating in the

12 battles in Tetovo on June 2, 2001, then those groups had -- in case they

13 had existed, had nothing to do with the police units, with the Ministry of

14 Interior, nor with the Minister Boskoski. Would you agree with this?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to show

17 the witness part of the testimonies of the protected witness who had

18 already testified in front of this Court. So maybe we should move on to a

19 semi-closed session.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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8

9

10

11 Pages 4912-4914 redacted. Private session.

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1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. General, we spoke about the units of the police who were within

5 your department. On several occasions, you mentioned the reserve police

6 forces. And if I were to tell you that in some certain situations, in the

7 cases where the security situation is worsened and there is an immediate

8 security problems or war, the reserve force of the police are activated.

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. During peacetime, part of the military conscripts is determined to

12 be part of those within -- to be within the reserve police forces.

13 A. Yes. There are lists which, in peacetime, are kept in a safe and

14 from time to time these members are invited for some activities and as you

15 have mentioned yourself when the situation gets complicated they are

16 called upon to be reservists in the Ministry of Interior.

17 Q. In 2001, the situation was such that required activation of the

18 reserve police forces. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the army called upon those individuals who were designated to

21 come from the reserve army forces.

22 A. That is correct. The army also has reserve forces.

23 Q. If the police did not have enough number of individuals within its

24 own reserve forces, then the secretariat of Defence or the secretariat of

25 Defence would need to second the reserve forces from the military or the

1 civilian protection into the police reserve forces. Is that true?

2 A. We do not have civil defence anymore. But, yes, from the army,

3 from the military, yes.

4 Q. In 2001, the crisis were of such dimensions that a number of the

5 reserve forces who had been previously designated for the police it was

6 not enough. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Because of this, there was a public announcement for people to

9 volunteer in the police reserve forces.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yesterday, as an answer to one of the questions, you said that the

12 rule book regulates the manner through which invitations are extended and

13 that this procedure is realised by individuals who in the Ministry of

14 Interior work in the area of defence?

15 A. Yes, in the ministry there is a department for defence

16 preparations and each inspector has his or her area of work and they have

17 to call upon a certain number of people and there is a rule book according

18 to which they invite those people.

19 Q. And after the general decision for activating the reserve forces

20 those individuals who work in the area of defence preparations have the

21 responsibility to invite the reserve police forces or to second it,

22 according to the law and the rule book they do not need any additional

23 orders. Is this correct?

24 A. Yes. They have their orders sealed in envelopes and when the

25 reserve police force is activated those envelopes are opened and they can

1 see inside what they need to do and how they to do it.

2 Q. I will now ask you to look at what's behind tab 34. It is 65 ter

3 1D209, the page is R042-4704, and the English one is R042-4704 also. This

4 is the draft of the -- of the -- it's a draft English translation.

5 General, this is from the official gazette of the Republic of

6 Macedonia. Is this the Book of Rules that regulates the manner through

7 which the reserve forces are summoned?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

10 this document in evidence.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D154.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Yesterday, you started saying that it is not enough that somebody

15 has weapons to become a member of the reserve forces, if I understood

16 well. However, regardless of what you tried to say something about

17 yesterday, I would now like to ask you: In order to become a member of

18 the reserve forces of the Republic of Macedonia, is it true that it is

19 necessary, first, for a person to respond to a summons or to volunteer in

20 case the summons were public?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then, to -- for weapons and uniform to be issued?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Then, to go through a brief training which, in 2001, took place in

25 Idrizovo, to receive the ID from the reserve forces, and to be put on the

1 payroll in order to receive the remuneration for the reserve forces?

2 A. Yes. When the members of the reserve forces are involved for more

3 than one month, and that person -- that person's regular job is put on

4 hold and he receives his salary from the Ministry of Interior.

5 Q. If somebody received a uniform or weapons in any part of the

6 Ministry of the Interior, whether by virtue of only this, would this

7 person become a member of the reserve forces?

8 A. No.

9 Q. In the course of the work of the committee that you chaired, you

10 obtained the list from the police station for the security of facilities

11 and persons that had a number of -- the number of 84 persons who received

12 weapons and uniform at this police station. Do you remember?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If these individuals had never been entered into the list of the

15 reserve forces, if they had not been remunerated, and if they had not been

16 in the list of those individuals that received training in Idrizovo, would

17 it be correct for me to say that they were not in the reserve police

18 forces?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. I will now like to -- you to look at the document past tab 39.

21 That is Exhibit 1D118, page is 1D4454, and the English one is 1D4456.

22 In this information, the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of

23 Macedonia submits to the Defence of Mr. Boskoski the ministry confirms

24 that those -- those individuals from the PSOLO list from the 25th and the

25 26th of July were not members of the police reserve forces. They had not

1 been remunerated, that the ministry does not have any documents that they

2 participated in the Idrizovo training, and they had not been issued with

3 any police ID?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Does this document confirm with what you just told me that they

6 were not members of the police forces?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When working in the second committee, you also received a list of

9 persons who were allegedly issued weapons at the Cair police station. Do

10 you remember that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please look at the document in tab 41. That is 65 ter

13 1D00554.1, the page is 1D00-5101. It enumerates eight individuals

14 regarding which the Defence of Mr. Boskoski requests the ministry to

15 answer whether these persons have been remunerated, whether they have

16 received remuneration from the Ministry of the Interior in 2001.

17 I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 42.

18 That is 65 ter 1D554.2, 1D5103, and the English version is 5104. And this

19 is a response that the cabinet of the state secretary in the Ministry of

20 the Interior in Skopje sends to the Defence of Mr. Boskoski and which

21 indicates that the persons enumerated in the correspondence from us were

22 not registered in the payroll of the ministry, and thus far they were

23 never remunerated from the Ministry of the Interior. Considering this

24 fact, General, sir, could you say that these persons haven't been members

25 of the reserve forces of the police either?

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

3 these two documents 1D554.2 and 1D554.1 as Defence exhibits.

4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, my concern, and it's a concern that I've

5 raised previously, is whether such a letter from the Ministry of the

6 Interior is really the equivalent of a witness statement and whether this

7 should become -- and should be exhibited in this case. The questions and

8 answers have been read into the record, so the Prosecution is simply

9 wondering whether, based on the normal practice of this trial, these

10 documents should be exhibited.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE PARKER: The letters will not be received as exhibits,

13 Ms. Residovic.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. When asked by my learned colleague yesterday, you stated that you

16 knew about the protests of citizens of the reserve forces and the army on

17 the 25th of June, 2001 in Skopje. Do you know about this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it correct that the minister, after the events and wishing to

20 support the programme of peaceful resolution of the crisis, had adopted a

21 decision to perform the deactivation, demobilisation of the reserve

22 forces?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you know that the president of the Republic reacted to such

25 decision of the minister and requested that this decision is annulled?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Based on these facts, General, sir, could you agree with me if I

3 say that the president of the Republic of Macedonia performing the

4 competences vested to him by the constitution and the law, issued decision

5 about the use of police forces for combat purposes?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I would like to ask you now, General, about what really happened

8 in the Republic of Macedonia in 2001, and briefly only, since there were

9 other witnesses who had already testified about this.

10 Is it correct that the crisis in Macedonia started with the

11 attacks of some sabotage terrorist groups in January 2001 in the area of

12 Aracinovo?

13 A. Yes. Three members of our forces were killed then.

14 Q. And after that, the attacks continued, the attacks of these

15 sabotage terrorist groups, and also in some areas of Tetovo, Kumanovo and

16 later in Skopje they gained in intensity. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. These sabotage terrorist groups attacked the police stations and

19 police patrols, military facilities but also civilian facilities, workers

20 going to work, as well as the general population.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And during that time, pressurised by these terrorist attacks, huge

23 number or proportion of Macedonian population needed to leave their homes

24 in the areas of Tetovo and Kumanovo?

25 A. And Skopje, yes.

1 Q. Are you familiar with the ways, with the terrorist methods that

2 the NLA used most frequently during that period?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If I attempt to summarize them, would those be kidnapping and

5 holding civilians as hostages, both Macedonians and Albanians; kidnapping

6 and holding hostage members of the Macedonian security forces;

7 ill-treatment -- physical ill-treatment and intimidation; killing;

8 destruction of private and religious facilities; and similar activities.

9 Would those be some of the methods that were used by the NLA in the

10 activities against security forces and the people in the Republic of

11 Macedonia?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. One of the frequent methods that the NLA used during that time was

14 to place or to lay minefields against the Macedonian forces and to mine

15 roads, in order to cause casualties in both the civilians and the security

16 forces. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes. They would mine roads. They did not make a distinction

18 whether it would be civilians or security forces who would use those

19 roads.

20 Q. If someone would claim that the NLA did not use minefields, would

21 such assertion be accurate?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Is it correct, General, that these sabotage terrorist groups built

24 their power mainly on the intimidation of the population and controlling

25 part of that region physically, armed by weapons?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And is it correct that frequently the police, in consultations

3 with representatives of the international community withdrew from the

4 police stations in order to avoid casualties in the civilian population?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. For the security forces of Macedonia, both the police and the

7 army, a special problem was that the NLA members, mingled, mixed with the

8 civilian population, which prevented the security forces from having a

9 more energetic reaction because they wanted to avoid civilian casualties.

10 Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is correct.

12 Q. Is it correct that the Macedonian authorities tried to evacuate

13 the civilian population before the start of the military operations in

14 order to avoid human casualties?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document which is found

17 in tab 8, number 61. That is 65 ter 1D559, 1D5124, and we have this

18 document in the English language only, and I -- first let me say that this

19 is Associated Press and Reuters news services, dated 8th of May, 2001.

20 And let us look at the page 1D2128.

21 A. 5128.

22 Q. 5128. If you look towards the middle, yes, towards the middle of

23 this page, it reads 05-07845, and the title is Bush administration

24 expresses support for Macedonia. The paragraph 2 reads: "[In English]

25 Bush supports the efforts of the government of Macedonia to fight the

1 extremists who have brought the violence to the region. White House press

2 secretary Ari Fleischer said. Bush met last week with Macedonian

3 president Boris Trajkovski in Washington and told him, Fleischer said,

4 that the ultimate answer to Macedonia's ethnic strife must be a political

5 solution. But, added Fleischer, the president wants to make certain that

6 Macedonia is able to take the action they need to combat a problem that

7 has been created by the extremists."

8 [Interpretation] So given this support that the President Bush

9 extends to the Macedonian president, it can be clearly seen that the

10 Macedonian authorities were supported in resolving the crisis situation

11 and that they are also advised to look for a political solution for the

12 problem. Does this -- can this be inferred from this?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Further in the text it is stated: "[In English] Macedonian troops

15 launched a weekend offensive, forcing ethnic Albanian rebels to flee

16 across a nearby border into Kosovo while the government ordered residents

17 of several villages to evacuate and claimed the rebels were holding

18 hundreds of civilians as human shields."

19 [Interpretation] Does this information corroborate what you stated

20 before, that the Macedonian authorities tried to safeguard and protect the

21 civilian population but the NLA frequently used the civilian population as

22 human shield?

23 A. This was most strikingly visible in the Kumanovo region and in the

24 Skopje region, one may say, where the Albanian population was held hostage

25 in the basement. They were not allowed to leave the village or go out of

1 the houses. They were used as human shield.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document in

4 evidence as Defence exhibit, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number 1D155.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I would like to ask you now, General, to look at the next document

9 in tab 62. That is, again, a Associated Press and Reuters news services.

10 This time dated May 17th, 2001 and that is 65 ter 1D560, page 1D5136.

11 In the penultimate paragraph, this first page, it reads: "[In

12 English] Reuters, Macedonian president Boris Trajkovski urged civilians on

13 Wednesday to leave rebel-held villages, warning that the army was about to

14 use decisive force to drive out ethnic Albanian guerillas."

15 [Interpretation] General, was this the constant, the permanent way

16 in which the authorities of the Republic of Macedonia, before they start a

17 military action, attempted to remove and to protect the civilian

18 population?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we seek to tender

21 this document in evidence as well.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit 1D156.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. General, you've just mentioned that this -- that the civilians,

1 especially in the Kumanovo region, were used as human shield. Yesterday,

2 when asked or -- alongside a conclusion of my learned friend the

3 Prosecutor, we learned that you were injured severely?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That happened in Vaksince, in the Kumanovo region. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the methods of minefields, minefields that would kill or wound

9 the Macedonian security forces, were the way where the NLA was active in

10 that region as well. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And there also, the Albanians who cooperated with the Macedonian

13 authorities were intimidated and particularly the police officers who

14 worked at the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Macedonia.

15 A. Yes. We even had information that in the Tetovo village of Poroj

16 [phoen] there was a public execution of an Albanian who had cooperated

17 with the police bodies, and it was never reported anywhere and it was not

18 stated publicly that it was done.

19 Q. And NLA used these methods throughout the crisis, and it did not

20 refrain from using them, even after the signing of the Ohrid framework

21 agreement when some of the NLA groups ONA, Macedonian abbreviation, were

22 renamed ANA?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And I don't know whether you have the information that few days

25 ago, when Albanian commander of a police station was again killed at

1 Vaksince performing his duties as a police officer.

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour. Objection, Your Honour. I don't see the

4 relevance of that question or the answer.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, what is the relevance? We are

6 dealing with events in 2001. We're certainly not going to try the

7 political situation in Macedonia in 2007.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I'm now

9 speaking about methods of the NLA and the security situation and the

10 possibilities for the Minister Boskoski to have entered the village of

11 Ljuboten until May 2001, that was my intention in mentioning this. The

12 events before and the developments after the signing of the agreement, if

13 it was understood differently, I then apologise.

14 JUDGE PARKER: The question appears to be speaking about recent

15 events. Is that correct?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will not be admitted.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we --

19 JUDGE PARKER: It will not be admitted. Thank you.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Could we move briefly into private session.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. The Chamber will now adjourn for the

16 first break, to resume at a quarter past 4.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We understand there is some issues counsel which to

21 raise.

22 Mr. Mettraux.

23 MR. METTRAUX: Good afternoon.

24 There are indeed two very short matters. The first one --

25 JUDGE PARKER: I'll record the time when you said it will be very

1 short.

2 MR. METTRAUX: I will apply my own definition of very short, Your

3 Honour.

4 The first has to do with the repeat ruling prior to the break by

5 the Trial Chamber concerning the non-admission of two documents which were

6 numbered as Rule 65 ter 1D554.1 and.2 respectively. Your Honour, those

7 documents are indeed important, we submit and the Defence will seek to

8 tender the information contained in those documents; however, in view of

9 the Trial Chamber's ruling of a moment ago, the Defence would like to seek

10 brief clarification from the Trial Chamber with a view to ensure that when

11 the information contained in those document is sought to be tendered in a

12 different form, they could indeed be tendered. What the Defence has in

13 mind, perhaps, and if it is agreeable to the Trial Chamber, would be to

14 submit those in the form of a Rule 92 bis statement taken from the person

15 in question.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Can I answer you quite quickly and simply without

17 having to turn to Mr. Saxon, if he does not mind.

18 If you want to prove a fact, you lead evidence to prove it. If

19 you want to prove that certain people were employed or were not employed

20 in a ministry of the government, you lead evidence to prove it. A letter

21 from the ministry to counsel could suggest that was the case, but does not

22 go far enough to prove it.

23 To prove it, either a witness who was here for some other reason

24 may have sufficient personal knowledge to be able to say what it is that

25 you want proved. Alternatively, you call a witness, who does know from

1 the ministry who can say that. As an alternative to calling the witness,

2 you may seek to use the Rule 92 bis procedure, that is getting a proper

3 form statement from a witness who knows, and see whether then there is on

4 a motion to have it received as a statement, see whether or not there is

5 any difficulty to be found there.

6 MR. METTRAUX: I'm very grateful, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Is that enough?

8 MR. METTRAUX: Absolutely. And that clarifies the matter.

9 Your Honour, the second issue which we would like to bring to the

10 attention of the Chamber concerns a number of documents, or rather,

11 records of minutes of meetings between the representatives of the Office

12 of the Prosecutor on the one hand and representative of the Macedonian

13 authorities. We understand from our investigation and from the disclosure

14 which we have received from the Prosecution that there were a number of

15 such meetings in the years 2001 and 2002. As part of the disclosure

16 material, we have received several records in various forms of those

17 meetings, several of which were in the forms of so-called investigator's

18 notes. We have already used, actually, two of those documents, Your

19 Honour, with the witness Dr. Jakovski.

20 The Defence has become aware, however, that the records of a

21 number of other meetings between the OTP and representatives of the

22 Macedonian authorities in relation to the investigation of the Ljuboten

23 matter in 2001 and 2002, had not been disclosed to the Defence. On 19

24 August of this year, we have, therefore, written a letter to senior trial

25 attorney Mr. Saxon with a view to obtain the records of those meetings, in

1 particular, we had identified three such meetings: On the 20th and 21st

2 of November of 2001; a second meeting on the 22nd of March of 2002; and a

3 third meeting on the 8th of May of 2002.

4 On the 21st of August, Mr. Saxon indicated to the Defence that

5 this material would not be disclosed to the Defence on the basis that this

6 material, the Prosecution suggested, fell under Rule 70 A. The

7 Prosecution did not indicate that the material did not exist or that it

8 was otherwise not relevant to the proceedings. On the 22nd of August, the

9 Defence wrote, once again, to the Prosecutor asking the OTP, essentially,

10 to reconsider its position. On the 7th of September, Mr. Saxon again

11 responded to the Defence reiterating the position of the office that the

12 documents in question fell under Rule 70 A. According to the Defence,

13 this position is without merit. The suggestion by the Prosecution may

14 that such material and information could fall or would fall within this

15 Rule 70 A can easily be set aside. I have already indicated that

16 approximately two dozen similar documents were already provided to the

17 Defence pursuant to Rule 66 and/or Rule 68 by the Prosecution in various

18 forms, mainly in the forms of investigator' notes. The only difference

19 which seemed to appear between those documents which have been disclosed

20 to the Defence and those which the Prosecution declines to be disclosed to

21 the Defence is the presence of the chief Prosecutor Madam Del Ponte at the

22 three meetings in question.

23 JUDGE PARKER: What about their content?

24 MR. METTRAUX: Well their content, Your Honour, is made evident,

25 if I may use that term, from other documents which we have received from

1 the Prosecution or from material which is publicly available. I will give

2 you an example --

3 JUDGE PARKER: The point I'm making is, there are meetings.

4 MR. METTRAUX: Yes.

5 JUDGE PARKER: The rule says what isn't discoverable are matters

6 in connection with the investigation or preparation of the case. Now a

7 great variety of things can be dealt with at meetings. If the Prosecution

8 is made a lot available to you that says of others, These come within Rule

9 70 A, the content of the meeting or the document may be the big point of

10 differentiation.

11 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, we have reason, if I understand

12 your question properly, we understand that those meetings indeed related

13 to the Ljuboten investigation. For instance, the meeting of the 20th and

14 21st of November was a meeting organised specifically for the visit of

15 Madam Del Ponte in Macedonia. A video was made of some parts of that

16 meeting, Madam Del Ponte was seen, among other things shaking the hands of

17 Mr. Boskoski during that meeting and it is indicated from other --

18 JUDGE PARKER: What has that got to do with anything, Mr.

19 Mettraux?

20 MR. METTRAUX: Well, we --

21 JUDGE PARKER: There have been at times during this trial by all

22 sides things thrown in like this, which really are not going to help

23 anybody, are they.

24 MR. METTRAUX: What we believe the relevance of that, Your Honour,

25 is that it is the Prosecution case that during the period from the 12th of

1 August onwards until sometime in May of 2002, Mr. Boskoski failed in his

2 duties which the Prosecution claims he had to do particular things, what

3 the Defence believe is that these records and these documents may reveal

4 material which is relevant to this question, in particular, whether any

5 assistance was sought or given by Mr. Boskoski. Thus, my reference to the

6 presence of Mr. Boskoski during the meeting with Madam Del Ponte and other

7 meetings of that sort where, for instance, the question of exhumation or

8 autopsies were being discussed which, again, is an issue relevant to these

9 proceedings.

10 JUDGE PARKER: If your client was present, he knows what

11 transpired at the meeting.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, we have sought to obtain the

13 records from the other side, so to say, from the Macedonian authorities

14 and unfortunately haven't been able to do so. At this stage short of

15 calling Mr. Boskoski to give evidence about this matter, we would have no

16 alternative but to seek either the documents in question from the

17 Prosecution or to seek to interview some of the participants in those

18 meetings. We believe that the easiest way in this and the quickest course

19 in this matter is to have the record themselves provided to the Defence to

20 make a decision.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

22 MR. METTRAUX: Well, the other indication, Your Honour, which we

23 would like to make at this stage in relation to the suggestion by the

24 Prosecution that this is -- that the records of meetings or the notes

25 taken by the Prosecutor of meetings with individuals related to the case

1 would fall under Rule 70 A goes not only to contrary to the material which

2 has been already disclosed closed to the Defence as I indicated, but also

3 contrary to some of the material which the Prosecution itself is seeking

4 to use. And I will simply refer here to Rule 65 ter 783, 784 and 785,

5 which likewise are so-called investigator notes which, in essence, are

6 notes taken by the Prosecution of particular meeting between a

7 representative of the Prosecution and third parties.

8 As for the relevance, Your Honour, I think I have indicated

9 essentially what we believed could be relevant to this matter. In

10 particular, the circumstances under which the investigation was carried

11 out at the time, what was being done at the time, what couldn't be done at

12 the time, what the position of the Macedonian authorities were at the

13 time, and if any request was made to Mr. Boskoski for assistance in

14 relation to this matter.

15 I will give the floor to Mr. Saxon.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

17 Just a moment, please, Mr. Saxon.

18 Yes, Mr. Saxon.

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Your Honours, I should say, the --

20 Mr. Mettraux is quite correct when he explains to the Chamber that the

21 Prosecution has told Defence counsel that it will not disclose these notes

22 of meetings that were held with Madam Del Ponte, the Prosecutor of this

23 Tribunal, and leaders of the Macedonian government because, in the

24 Prosecution's submission, such notes are protected by Rule 70 A. That is

25 correct.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that has got to depend upon their content.

2 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour, I'm sorry. What is correct is that

3 was the communication made by the Prosecution to the Defence.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

5 MR. SAXON: Where the Prosecution parts company with the Defence

6 on this matter is with Mr. Mettraux's submission that the Prosecution's

7 argument that Rule 70 A applies is somehow contrary or inconsistent with

8 other disclosures made by the Prosecution to the Defence, pursuant to

9 either Rule 66 B or Rule 68. It is true, Your Honours, that the

10 Prosecution has disclosed other materials that describe meetings between

11 members of the Office of the Prosecutor and persons working in Macedonia,

12 such as the members of the forensic institute, and the OSCE who, during

13 late 2001 and early 2002 were planning the exhumations in the Ljuboten

14 cemetery that eventually took place in May 2002. And specifically and

15 primarily I'm referring to notes of meetings in which future Prosecution

16 witness, Mr. Howard Tucker participated and made some notes.

17 However, Your Honour, in the Prosecution's submission, there is a

18 large qualitative difference between notes made by a Prosecution

19 investigator related to ongoing investigations in this case and notes made

20 of high-level, often sensitive meetings undertaken by the Prosecutor of

21 this Tribunal, Ms. Del Ponte involving discussions with government leaders

22 including leaders of the state of Macedonia.

23 Secondly, Your Honour, I have reviewed the notes of such meetings

24 and in the Prosecution's opinion, there is nothing in those notes that

25 falls within the Prosecution's disclosure obligations underneath the

1 Rules.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Can you please elaborate what you're saying about

3 notes of meetings between, as we understand it, the Prosecutor, and

4 members of the Macedonian government or very senior officials.

5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour --

6 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying that the content of those is not

7 discoverable because the content is not within the scope of Rule 66 or

8 Rule 68, or are you saying it's not discoverable because it is protected

9 by Rule 70 A?

10 MR. SAXON: I'm saying both, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: And in either case, then, what is the point of the

12 distinction you're making between investigators's notes of meetings and

13 notes of high-level meetings involving the Prosecutor? I couldn't grasp

14 what that had to do with it.

15 MR. SAXON: In the Prosecution's submission, Your Honour, and if I

16 can say in the OTP's submission, the particular meetings, discussions that

17 are undertaken by the Prosecutor herself, she often meets with heads of

18 states, she has often meetings on extremely delicate matters and in the

19 Prosecution's submission, such notes normally should fall within the

20 protection of Rule 70 A.

21 JUDGE PARKER: If those -- the discussions at those meetings

22 contain discoverable material or disclosable material under Rule 68 or

23 66, they should be disclosed.

24 MR. SAXON: Point taken, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: That's why I was confused by you introducing that

1 factor.

2 MR. SAXON: [Indiscernible]

3 JUDGE PARKER: If they are discussions at a high level about

4 generalities and are not discussions that deal with any matter that comes

5 within the terms of Rule 66 or 68, there is no issue. There's then the

6 question of Rule 70 A about which it is still not clear to me what it is

7 you're saying. Are you saying here that there is material here that was

8 to do with the investigation and preparation of the Prosecution's case for

9 this trial, or is that not the case?

10 MR. SAXON: Can we move into private session, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

12 [Private session]

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3 (redacted)

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE PARKER: The position seems to have been a little confused

10 by some responses given by the Prosecutor in this case, but the position,

11 as clarified, in response to Mr. Mettraux's application, is that no -- the

12 prosecuting counsel leading in this case has examined the documents in

13 question, and none of them are subject to disclosure in his assessment

14 under Rule 66 or Rule 68.

15 The Defence are not able to identify or specify in what respect

16 there's material in these documents which is either wrongly appreciated by

17 the Prosecutor or which is, in some way, relevant to their case and which

18 they ought to have to enable them to properly prepare their case for

19 trial. The assurance of counsel that we have is the normal basis upon

20 which matters of this nature are finally assessed. Unless there is

21 something about the nature of the document that is known or the

22 circumstances which indicate that there is reason to think that the

23 document really ought to be disclosed, because it's material to the

24 preparation of the Defence. In this case, the Chamber is unable to see

25 that there is any such indication in anything that is before us.

1 We would further observe that insofar as they were present at

2 these meetings, both the Prosecutor of this Chamber and the accused

3 Mr. Boskoski, what transpired at the meetings is therefore within the

4 knowledge of Mr. Boskoski. Despite that, it is still not able to be

5 advanced how or in what particular the content of these documents ought to

6 be disclosed.

7 In those circumstances, the oral motion is refused.

8 Is there any other matter?

9 We'd better have the witness back.

10 Just short of 30 minutes is the answer to the question of what is

11 a short time.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry you were kept waiting by some procedural

15 matters.

16 Ms. Residovic.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. General, yesterday we spoke about committees and groups that you

19 belonged to, and one of them was the operational headquarters Ramno. Do

20 you remember?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then you said that as a member of these headquarters you received

23 a number of information both from public and state security which were

24 important for the assessment of the security situation and the crisis

25 situation. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. General, is it correct that through those information that came

3 from the public security of the municipality of Cair and especially from

4 the continuous information from the administration for

5 counter-intelligence and security, could you have found out that Ljuboten,

6 from the very beginning of the crisis, was used as a logistics base from

7 the NLA forces in Skopska Crna Gora?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Although this was mentioned several times in front of this Court,

10 can you confirm that Skopska Crna Gora and the position of Ljuboten of an

11 exceptional strategic importance for the city Skopje?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now I will ask to you look at a document right after the tab 843.

14 That is exhibit 1D142. The Macedonian page is N006-3880 and the English

15 one is -- I apologise, the other page is 1D43709. And the English one is

16 1D4711. This is tab 43 in your binder.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The transcript says -- I said 43

18 but it is a different number in the transcript.

19 Q. General, as you can see, this is a document from the

20 administration of public security Skopje and it represents -- it has a

21 very interesting understanding. The Defence received this from the

22 Prosecutor. Is this one type of a document that the administration for

23 public security -- from the state security sent besides the designated

24 individuals in the document also to the headquarters Ramno to inform them

25 of their intelligence?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now I will ask to you look at page 2 of this document. And as I

3 said, this is a document from 28 February 2001. Page 2 of the document

4 both in the English it's the -- it is still on the first page. The last

5 paragraph of the first page. And the second paragraph of the second page

6 in the Macedonian version. It says the following: "We received the

7 operational information that in the area of Basinec above Ljuboten

8 village, a large-scale movement of the population was observed during the

9 day and throughout the night there were guards were organised around the

10 installation in the area."

11 In the last sentence of this paragraph it says: "At the entrance

12 to Ljuboten village, from the direction of Ljubanci village, young men are

13 guarding the entrance to the village and not letting anyone they don't

14 know enter Ljuboten at night."

15 General, did you have any information, both in your function that

16 you performed as a member and as a member of the Ramno headquarter that in

17 the village of Ljuboten there are guards set up that limit the entrance to

18 the village or do not allow it? And this was happening from the very

19 early months of the crisis.

20 A. Yes, we had such information.

21 Q. Now, I would like to you look at the information past the tab 44.

22 This is it document 65 ter 1D555, page 1D5105; the English 1D5107. And

23 again, you see a document from the administration of the state security

24 from Skopje from March 2nd, 2001. So I would like you to turn to page 2

25 of the Macedonian version, 1D5106, and we're again on page 1 of the

1 English version, and this last paragraph of the English page. And this

2 document talks about the village of Ljuboten and says: "The information

3 concerning the presence of armed persons in the area of Basinec above

4 Ljuboten village has been confirmed."

5 And then in the last sentence of this paragraph, in the

6 penultimate sentence of this paragraph it says: "The population of

7 Ljuboten village is afraid of the armed group and hesitates to go to

8 Basinec. In Basinec there's a summer house owned by [indiscernible] from

9 Aracinovo has been given to use to armed persons."

10 Is this yet another from the string of information that talks

11 about presence of armed persons around the village Ljuboten?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender these documents

14 in evidence, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D157.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Now I would like to ask to you look at the document after the tab

19 45, Exhibit 1D143, and the page is N005-7390. And I mention -- I gave the

20 number wrong. 1D473, and the English version is 1D4715.

21 Again, in front of us we can see the document from the security

22 and counter-intelligence division from March 5, 2001. In the second

23 paragraph of this report from the operative position --

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise that I

25 have failed to mention this, but I think it is not too late. I would ask

1 that these documents are not made public, given the classification status

2 and the importance of these documents. I would like to inform the Chamber

3 that we received a letter from the state security of the Republic of

4 Macedonia where they provided us a restriction. They said -- they imposed

5 a restriction on us that these documents could not be presented publicly.

6 JUDGE PARKER: We have been following the procedure with documents

7 of this nature that they are not revealed on the screens or made public.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. General, you can see in the middle of the second paragraph it

10 says: "At the same time, the source stated that some of these individuals

11 regularly go down to the village of Ljuboten using motor vehicles, as well

12 as to Skopje. According to him the frequent movement of motor vehicle on

13 route Basinec-Ljuboten-Skopje is due to the supply of food and other

14 articles for the individuals who are staying there."

15 And in this document we talk about the fact that in the village of

16 Ljuboten, the village of Ljuboten was used for movement of equipment and

17 goods for the armed group in the village of Ljuboten. Are these the types

18 of information that you also had available when you were analysing the

19 situation in the city of Skopje?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now I would like to ask you to look at the document past tab 46.

22 That is a document 65 ter 1016, number N005-7408, and the English one is

23 N005-7408-ET, page 1.

24 Again, General, we see the summary of the security-related

25 intelligence from the administration for security and counter-intelligence

1 from 19 March 2001, and I like to turn to the second page of the

2 Macedonian version; and, at the same time, the second page of the English

3 version.

4 In the second paragraph of the both Macedonian and the English

5 version: "The 16th, the 17th and the 18th of March in 2001, in the village

6 of Ljuboten, people in civilian clothes came to urge the local population

7 to join the terrorists. Five people have already left the village."

8 Does this information corroborate your intelligence from that time

9 that very early in the crisis, some individuals from Ljuboten joined the

10 NLA?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

13 this document in evidence.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D158.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I would like to ask you now again to look beside -- after the tab

18 48. It is document 65 ter 1D596, page 1, N005-7438.

19 General, this time in front of you, you can see -- you can see the

20 operational intelligence from the operational worker collected by the

21 department -- the administration for security from the municipality of

22 Cair. And it represents the content of the conversation that the

23 authorised inspector undertake -- undertook on the 28th of June, 2001.

24 In Article 1, in the middle of it which says: "Namely --"

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, it begins with the

1 words: "It was also noticed."

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. It says: "It was also noticed that a bigger quantity of sand was

4 brought in several turns to the courtyards of two houses in Ljuboten

5 village. One located at the Turkish cemetery, another one at the

6 riverside. This sand was brought in from the mine Bajani and improvised

7 bunkers were made."

8 And then in the last paragraph of this page it says: "According to

9 the source from the village of Ljuboten, in short time overnight, a couple

10 of fresh graves appeared suddenly. And in that context in the village

11 shop, comments were heard that the young Albanians from the village were

12 being promised a salary of between 2 to 3.000 German marks, if they would

13 join the terrorists, but then these men were returned back covered in

14 white linen."

15 Does this intelligence also speak to the fact that the young

16 people from the village went to NLA and after being killed they were

17 returned to the village?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

20 this document in evidence as well.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D159.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Now I would like to ask you to look at document at tab 50. This

25 is a document, 65 ter 1D597, page 1 on the Macedonian version, and 65 ter

1 1019, page 1.

2 General, this is the sector for analytics for research of the

3 directorate for security and counter-intelligence. Responding to the

4 question that I asked you yesterday about the structure of the ministry,

5 you said that in administration for security and counter-intelligence

6 there were some methods that were used by the public security but also

7 other methods that were very different were used?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. General, can you confirm that within the administration for

10 security and counter-intelligence there was also a sector for analytics

11 that was undertaking analysis information and assessments of the security

12 situation?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you at the operational headquarters Ramno also at sometimes

15 were being submitted the assessment undertaken by this sector about the

16 security situation in the Republic of Macedonia?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering that

19 this is a type of a document that the -- type -- that the witness confirms

20 and the document itself contains information regarding the village of

21 Ljuboten and the region, we think that this is relevant and we seek to

22 tender this document in evidence.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D160.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Now I would like to ask you to look at the document at tab 61.

2 This is document 65 ter 1D598, page 1. It is the same page in English.

3 The number is N005-7467.

4 Again, this is yet another one of the materials that discuss the

5 information received by the operational workers from the 15th of August,

6 2001. And in paragraph 2 it is obvious that this information contains

7 some data that pertain to the setting up of mines in the Ljuboten Bacila,

8 and as it says here: "The source said that Albanian terrorists, a group

9 of 25 strong, took care to set the mine on the road. Some of them were

10 from Kosovo, and some from Ljuboten village."

11 General, considering the security situation in the region of

12 Skopje and in the headquarters Ramno, did you have any information that

13 part -- that some of the individuals from Ljuboten were involved in

14 setting up the mines in the Ljuboten Bacila?

15 A. Yes, there were such intelligence that was received.

16 Q. I would like to ask you to look at the document past the tab 52.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And before that, I seek to tender

18 the previous document in evidence, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D161.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Let's now look at the document past the tab 52. It is document

23 number 65 ter 1D599, number N005-7446, and the English one is 65 ter 1013,

24 page 1.

25 As we had the chance to see earlier on document that talked about

1 the assessment of the situation in the village of Ljuboten, General, do

2 you recognise in this document also the document from the sector for

3 analysis from the state security that looks at the whole security

4 situation in the Skopje region?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This is -- this was in August 2001.

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering that in

9 the document on page N005-7451, the situation in Ljuboten is analysed and

10 the General is in a position to be able to recognise the documents as

11 documents from the administration for security and counter-intelligence, I

12 seek to tender this document in evidence of the Defence as well.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D162.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I would like to ask you to look now at the document in tab 54, 65

17 ter 1D601, page 1, and the English, 65 ter 1002, page 1.

18 This is, again, an overview or cross-section of the information

19 that is produced by the analytics sector of the state security, and it

20 pertains to the information about the illegal channels for the entry of

21 NLA members from Kosovo and for the transport of weapons.

22 If we look now at page 3 of this document in the Macedonian

23 language, and also page 3 of the English version, the second paragraph of

24 the Macedonian text and the third one of the English text reads the

25 following: "According to the confirmed reports, the most frequently used

1 illegal channel for the entry of the NLA and the transport of weapons from

2 Kosovo to Macedonia in February 2001 was the Basinec area near the village

3 of Ljuboten. At the beginning of March this year, reports were confirmed

4 of intensified activities to illegally transfer weapons and ammunition to

5 the area of the villages of Lojane, Vaksince and Runica in the Kumanovo

6 area and illegal channel via the villages of Dunav, Straza in the Presevo

7 valley was used for this purpose. Presevo valley is at the south of

8 Serbia. Is it correct?

9 A. Yes. This is the three-partied border between Kosovo, Serbia and

10 Macedonia.

11 Q. And this document confirms that the illegal transfer of weapons

12 also went both through the village and by the village of Ljuboten. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

16 this document in evidence as a Defence exhibit.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D163.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 55.

21 That is 65 ter document 1D520, page 1D4748, Macedonian, while 1D4749, the

22 English. That is 65 ter 1D520, as I stated already.

23 And that is operative information dated 18th of July, 2001 by the

24 sector for repression of organised and general crime of the sector for

25 internal affairs, Skopje. Do you recognise this document as the document

1 issued by the Ministry of Interior when issuing a warrant on persons?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. From the contents of this document it can be seen that, against a

4 person Jetulla Arifi who is wanted for perpetrating the crime of

5 association for hostile purposes, there is a warrant issued and it is

6 requested that he is found and deprived of liberty.

7 The second paragraph shows that this person was seen near the

8 village of Ljuboten, and it is further stated that there are several other

9 persons from the Ljuboten village with him and that they are NLA members

10 for more than four months.

11 This information, General, corroborates the notion that the

12 Ljuboten villagers were NLA members from -- that NLA had the members from

13 Ljuboten village since it indicates that for four months already these

14 persons were NLA members. Does this corroborate what you had, the

15 information that you had, in terms of certain number of people from

16 Ljuboten having participated in the NLA?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

19 this document into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D164.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Could you please look at the document in tab 56, General. That

24 is, again, a document coming from the state security of Skopje dated 6th

25 of September, 2001, and it is a report about the operative interview with

1 a person that the state security inspector has communicated with.

2 In the subtitle II, contents, in bold, it states: "In the

3 previous operative material, intelligence was presented stating that

4 Sali Mamer has been actively engaged for more than three months in the

5 ranks of the NLA terrorist groups. First in the Kumanovo-Litkovo area and

6 subsequently at the positions of these terrorist groups in the village of

7 Ljuboten on 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th of August of this year during the

8 time that the security forces of the Republic of Macedonia undertook the

9 action to neutralize terrorist activity in the village of Ljuboten on the

10 12th of August and that on the 15th of August, he was already at NLA

11 positions in the village of Radusa and its vicinity."

12 Does that information corroborate your intelligence that during

13 the Ljuboten events there were NLA members in the village?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

16 this document in evidence.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D165.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Would you now look at the document in tab 57, General. That is 65

21 ter 1D557, page number 1D5114, and the English version is 1D5116.

22 This document, as some of the previous ones, is an overview of the

23 intelligence related to the security, to -- with regards to the Ljuboten

24 village before and after the terrorist attack on the army patrol.

25 The first paragraph reads: "Prior to the terrorist attack itself,

1 the gathering of members of the self-styled NLA was noticed in the village

2 of Ljuboten, wearing black uniforms and armed with automatic weapons."

3 Further it states: "For about two weeks before the event, they

4 were freely roaming around the village of Ljuboten and in it.." It states

5 further: "In order to recruit individuals from the village for the

6 self-styled NLA and to organise the defence of the village and secure

7 logistical support for the NLA, two meetings were held, one in the old

8 mosque, and the other in a house near it."

9 Do you agree that this document also corroborates the presence of

10 the NLA members in the village?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document in

13 evidence as a Defence exhibit, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D166.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe this would be

17 the convenient time for the break?

18 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will resume at five past 6.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Q. General, could you please look at the document in tab 59. That is

24 65 ter 1D558, page is 1D5118, what is the Macedonian version, and the

25 English is 1D5121. In tab 59.

1 This is a report, again, about an interview dated 4th of February,

2 2002, with the operative position chief inspector of the state security.

3 And the contents, again, related, as you can see from the first paragraph,

4 to the activity of the NLA members in the village of Ljuboten. And I

5 would like to draw your attention on the second paragraph, towards the

6 middle of it, where it is stated: "Among them, as a guide who was

7 supposed to show them exactly which road was used by the MOI and RM

8 members, in other words when a replacement of soldiers was carried out and

9 there was movement on the road, was one of the sons of Bajrami Aziz, from

10 the village of Ljuboten. It was either Bajrami Rafiz, son of Aziz, born

11 2nd of March, 1973 in the village of Ljuboten, or Bajrami Vebi, father's

12 name Aziz, born 15th of September, 1975, in the village of Ljuboten, both

13 members of the self-styled NLA who fought in the ranks of the 113th and

14 114th brigades."

15 According to the information that Rafiz or rather, Vebi gave to

16 the terrorists when the replacement of the army of the Republic of

17 Macedonia soldiers took place, two or three vehicles moved along the road,

18 which was expected in the performance of the actual terrorist acts."

19 Does this information, dated 4th of September, 2002 go towards

20 supporting your intelligence, that there were NLA members in the village

21 of Ljuboten than some of them assisted or participated themselves in the

22 planting of the mine at Ljubotenski Bacila?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

25 this document in evidence as Defence exhibit.

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D167.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you please now look at the document in tab 60. That is 65

5 ter 1D602, page 1, and the English is 65 ter 1020, again page 1.

6 This is information that the state security produced on the 8th of

7 April, 2002, and it is related to the activity of the self-styled NLA in

8 the area of Ljuboten village and its vicinity.

9 And the lower part of the first paragraph states: "For this

10 purpose, Ljuboten, the village and especially the [indiscernible]

11 settlement in the Basinec vicinity were used as a logistics base and a

12 military training camp. For this purpose a facility was built at Basinec

13 which would be used as a command headquarters in the future."

14 This document again speaks about the presence of the NLA in the

15 village and around the village. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The last paragraph of this document, last paragraph at this page

18 in the Macedonian language, and it is also the last paragraph in the

19 English version page, is the complete organisation of taking over and

20 storing of the mentioned weapons was carried out by the person Alimi Baki,

21 known under the nickname Commander Lisi. The aforementioned person

22 continuously campaigned for mass joining of Ljuboten residents into the

23 so-called NLA ranks. As a result, several persons joined the so-called

24 NLA, out of whom the following can be identified: Jonuzovski Riza,

25 father's name Dzevad; Saliu Suat, father's name Rufat; Ljutviu Bajrus,

1 Supi; Faik Murati; Murati Femi Rasim, wounded in the fights above the

2 village of Ljuboten; Bajrami Shefajet, Sef; Supi Redzepi;

3 Jasarovski Bajram, killed at Ljuboten village; Bajrami Dzeljal, killed in

4 Ljuboten; Alimi Ramadan, killed in the fights above the village of Rastak;

5 Jusufov Rami, killed in Ljuboten; Kamberi Fatmir, Commander Miskoja;

6 Ljutviu Ekrem; Ali Naip and others."

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering that

8 this is a document that the witness can recognise as a format of

9 information issued by the DBK and it speaks about the Ljuboten events, I

10 seek to tender it as Defence exhibit.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D168.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. I would like to ask you, General, now to look at the document in

15 tab 64. That is 65 ter 1D492, number, Macedonian page 1D4447, and the

16 English page is 1D4451.

17 This is headquarters, Ramno, that produced this information about

18 the events that took place over that period of time, 10th of July, 2001.

19 And as you can see, this document is addressed to the minister of the

20 interior.

21 My first question is: Whether this is the format of information

22 that you at headquarters Ramno would produce informing the people that

23 were to be recipients of this document or to whom you would need to

24 communicate the information that the Ramno headquarters received?

25 A. Yes. This is the format in which the headquarters Ramno would

1 produce an information and distribute it to the persons whose names are on

2 the last page of it.

3 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at page 1D4449 in Macedonian,

4 and the English version is 1D4453.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe this draft

6 translation that we organised does not correspond fully to the Macedonian

7 text, so I would like to ask you to bear with me when I read the part that

8 might be of importance.

9 Yes, we managed. The English page is 1D4453, that is the second

10 paragraph from the top.

11 Q. You see here this part which reads: "In relation to operative

12 action Ramno the following information have been received by the SVR

13 Skopje." That is the very top in the English version.

14 And after that, there is a paragraph, and after that that would be

15 the last paragraph in the Macedonian version, while it would be the third

16 paragraph in the English version which reads: "At 12.00 hours, PS Cair has

17 received information from the person Zoran, that the persons Alimi Isni,

18 Xevair Baki and Alimi Asbi, all from the village of Ljuboten, have

19 participated in helping the NLA with weapons, cigarettes and other

20 materials that they transported on cattle from Kosovo through the villages

21 of Tanusevci and Brest to the village of Ljuboten, and after that, they

22 would be delivered to the person Sulejman Nazmi, in the village of

23 Aracinovo."

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the document

25 was authenticated by the witness as a format that the operative action

1 Ramno headquarters used for producing its information and since it

2 contains relevant data about the NLA in the village of Ljuboten, I seek to

3 tender this document in evidence as well.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution will not object to the

6 tendering of this document, just a point of clarification, that I believe

7 the English translation needs to be corrected so that the date 2007 does

8 not appear, so as not to create confusion at the top.

9 JUDGE PARKER: And how do you propose that to be done?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a mistake in

11 the English translation, and we're -- this is a draft translation and

12 we're waiting for the final version and it is obvious that this is a typo

13 because in the Macedonian version it is clearly -- that this is 2001. We

14 will change this draft version as soon as we receive the final

15 translation.

16 JUDGE PARKER: The exhibit will be received in evidence, and the

17 registry will substitute, when it is received, the formal translation for

18 the interim one that is presently provided.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit 1D169.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. General, the attacks of NLA in the region of Skopje and the other

22 major cities as Kumanov or Tetovo, is it correct that they became the

23 basis of a mass KLA demonstration by the citizens that especially created

24 problems in the maintaining of public law and order?

25 A. Yes, especially after somebody got killed or a big event

1 transpired.

2 Q. You talked about the fact that there were major events or

3 demonstrations of the citizens in Bitola on the 26th of June in Skopje?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. However, what was characteristic of this was that citizens from

6 other cities came to Skopje and this is where they would hold their

7 demonstrations, either in front of the parliament or in front of the

8 government building or other government institutions?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So in Skopje at the end of July, the citizens from the Tetovo village

11 demonstrated over thousands of people from Neprosteno and other villages

12 came to Skopje and they demonstrated. And then, due to an anti-Albanian

13 sentiment that emerged among part of the people, a large number of buildings,

14 private buildings of Albanians were damaged in the city of Skoplje.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you know that scores -- that the police from Skopje detained

17 scores of people from Skopje and criminal reports were filed against them?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Also after several people were murdered by a mine planted close

20 to Karpalak, there were major protests and demonstrations in the city of

21 Skopje. Is that correct?

22 A. No, not in Skopje, in Bitola.

23 Q. Bitola, I apologise.

24 However, besides these that I just mentioned, is it correct that

25 in Skopje in the settlement of Gorce Petrov on August 11, there were major

1 demonstrations, protests of citizens, as a result of the murder of the

2 soldiers who were killed near Ljubotenski Bacila?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you please look at the document at tab 64.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, it's tab 76.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter D603, the Macedonian page

7 is N004-9846, and the English translation is 65 ter 407, page

8 N004-9846-ET.

9 Q. In front of you, you have the information from the Ministry of

10 Interior, the analytics sector, that talks about these demonstrations in

11 Skopje on the occasion of what had happened in the Ljubotenski Bacila. Is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As you have mentioned yesterday, in order for the police to be

15 able to establish the public law and order it had to undertake exceptional

16 measures in order to protect the citizens, the parliament, the government

17 facilities, and the consular and other foreign facilities in the country.

18 Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document in

21 evidence, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 1D170.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. I would like to move on to a different topic now, General.

1 Is it correct that the Macedonian authorities responded to

2 this crisis and the attacks of sabotage and terrorist groups in two

3 ways, so to speak. First, by responding to these attacks, they

4 tried to destroy the terrorist groups or push them out of the

5 territory of the Republic of Macedonia in those locations where

6 they used violence and terror to threaten the system of the Republic

7 of Macedonia or to attempt, so to speak, to wrest parts of the

8 Republic of Macedonia from the rest of the country.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. However, parallel to this military and police activities, is it

11 correct that the government and the bodies that had the authority in the

12 Republic of Macedonia very early on they proposed that this crisis be

13 solved in a peaceful manner?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The president of the Republic, in the first half of June,

16 offered a plan for a peaceful solution of the crisis. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The government established a coordinated body that was responsible

20 for managing the measures for the peaceful solution of the crisis in the

21 country?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. An expert body was established - this was the crisis management

24 centre?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. From the very beginning in the drafting of the plan, in its

2 elaboration and implementation, the Macedonian government closely

3 cooperated with the representatives of the international community. Is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the working groups that were producing the drafts of the plans,

7 members of the NATO and other international organisations participated as

8 well.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Until the beginning of July in 2001, all plans that were envisaged

11 with the plan for the peaceful solution of the crisis were produced.

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to show

14 the witness certain documents which are not in the first binder that I

15 disseminated. I would like to ask the court usher to submit to the

16 Chamber, the Prosecution the additional materials.

17 Q. General, I would like to ask you to look at the document at tab

18 81.

19 THE INTERPRETER: 89, interpreter's correction.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is 65 ter 1D564. The page is

21 1D5163 in the Macedonian version, and 1D5169 in the English version.

22 Q. First of all, I would like to ask you whether it is true, General,

23 that you have yourself participated in the working groups which were

24 partially responsible for these documents, especially those that pertained

25 to the deployment of the security forces?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now I would like to ask you whether you recognise this document,

3 as a document that was supposed to be the plan and programme for

4 overcoming the crisis in the Republic of Macedonia.

5 A. Yes, that's what it was.

6 Q. Now I would like to ask you to look at the document at tab 90.

7 That is the document 65 ter 1D565. This is page 1D5174, and the English

8 version is 1D5191.

9 This document is, as it is apparent, was created the 11th of June,

10 2001. Is it correct that it contains the proposals for measures of the

11 organisation -- for the organisation and the efficiency of the crisis

12 management system in the Republic of Macedonia which was produced in a

13 close cooperation with the international community?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now I would like to look at the document at tab 91. This is

16 document 65 ter 1D566, page 1D5204, in the Macedonian version, and the

17 English version is 1D5210.

18 This is the overview of the -- review of the working groups for

19 the preparation of the operative plans. And behind you -- and for you in

20 the police, it was of a special importance, it was especially important to

21 determine the joint plan for the use of the security forces, and the plan

22 for the redeployment of the police forces in the crisis regions and under

23 NLA control. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it is correct.

25 Q. If we look at page 1D507 in the Macedonian, and in English that

1 would be 1D513. So page 1D5213, 5213. And the Macedonian is 5207.

2 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, if counsel could please indicate what tab

3 we're working with now.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Tab 91. The same

5 tab. This is the third page that I just mentioned.

6 Q. This is the plan for which you were interested in, in the Ministry

7 of the Interior, because it represented the preparation for the use of the

8 joint forces -- for the joint security forces, and as you have mentioned

9 yourself you participated as a representative of the Ministry of Interior

10 in the -- as a member of this working group. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. As it is apparent, a NATO member was always present in this

13 working group. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Look tab 62.

16 THE INTERPRETER: If the counsel can repeat the page.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 1D567, page is 1D5216. In

18 the English version, it is 1D5221.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, it's tab 92.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. This is the draft version, draft of the plan that your group

22 produced for the use of the security forces. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As it is apparent this working group of which you were

25 participating occasionally, the draft was created at the time when

1 representative -- the representative of the ministry was the Colonel --

2 THE INTERPRETER: If the counsel can repeat the last name.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. We can see that the -- that a NATO Colonel and another Colonel

5 from the British department of defence was participating?

6 A. Colonel Nikelevsi was from the sector of the public law and order

7 in the department of police for the Ministry of Interior.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Yet again, this confirms that in the -- in the

9 preparation of the draft, representatives from the international community

10 were always involved?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If you look at the document at tab 94, it is 65 ter 1D569, page

13 1D5293 in the Macedonian version and 1D5245 -- 5245 in the English

14 version?

15 The draft that you produced were adopted by the coordinating body

16 for crisis management and in front of us we see the minutes from each

17 session held on July 9th, 2001.

18 If we turn to page 1D5241 in the Macedonian version or 1D5247, we

19 will see that on that day the session of this coordinative body in item --

20 in Article 5, line 3, the plan for using of these joint forces.

21 Now I would like to ask you to look at document in tab 95. It is

22 65 ter 1D570, page 1D5251, and the English version is 1D5254. We can see

23 that this is a note, the minutes from the meeting held between the deputy

24 minister Ilija Filipovski and before I continue, Ilija Filipovski was at

25 the same time the president of the coordinative body. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And this is -- these are the minutes from the meeting held between

3 Mr. Filipovski and the ambassador of the USA and the Republic of Macedonia

4 Mr. Mike Einik. From this information, on page 5252 of the Macedonian

5 version and 5255. In paragraph 2 in the Macedonian version it is apparent

6 that the Ambassador Einik expressed his satisfaction with the

7 achievements, that is, the adoption of these plans and that he would like

8 to receive copies of the adopted operative plans as soon as possible for

9 which he was assured by the deputy prime minister that they will be

10 dispatched to him during the following day. He informed that they already

11 have organised two check-points for building materials where there are

12 means for the renovation of about 100 buildings in Tetovo and Kumanovo.

13 Page 1 of this information, if we go back to it, we will see that

14 in paragraph 3, the following text is present: "The deputy prime minister

15 pointed out -- informed the ambassador that the coordinative body works in

16 full capacity. The first three plans as he said, have already been

17 produced and that soon it is expected that this happens with the fourth

18 one."

19 Would you agree with me that this fourth plan that took longer to

20 be produced was exactly this plan for the use of the security forces?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now I would like you to look at the document at tab 96. It is 65

23 ter 1D571, and the English version is 1D5262. This is the plan for the

24 use of security forces of the Republic of Macedonia that was adopted, and

25 it was adopted right after the meeting with the ambassador of the United

1 States, and it was already implemented. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now I would like to look at page 1D5260. And the title is

4 management and control. In English it is 1D5265, command and control.

5 Here we can see that the use of the special purposes unit proposed

6 by the coordinative body is ordered by the president of the Republic of

7 Macedonia. The commanding with the army of the Republic of Macedonia is

8 under the competence of the president of the Republic and via the General

9 Staff of the Macedonian army. And the commanding with the units of the

10 Ministry of Interior affairs is under the competence of the president of

11 the government of the Republic of Macedonia via the Minister of Interior

12 Affairs.

13 Would you agree with me, General, that this plan that was produced

14 in the middle of July 2001 contains the manner of commanding with the

15 police forces as it was envisaged by the new Law on Defence. Do you agree

16 with me?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. However, is it correct that that, regardless of the fact that plan

19 was produced and adopted, this plan for the use of the security forces for

20 the Republic of Macedonia, the president of the Republic of Macedonia

21 until the end of the crisis kept using his authority and issued orders

22 both to the police, especially in the situations where the joint

23 operations were organised?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This is what the president did in his function as the chief

1 commander of the Armed Forces, considering that the by-laws of the new law

2 had not been passed yet. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If we look at this document, and the practice about which you

5 testify, could you be certain when you say that the use of the command and

6 the management of the police was never in the hands of the minister. It

7 was either in the hands of the president of the Republic or that was

8 the -- under the authority of the president of the government of the

9 Republic of Macedonia?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this moment I

12 would -- I seek to tender these documents in evidence, and I think that

13 maybe we can adjourn for today, that I can end with the interrogation. I

14 can repeat these numbers.

15 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 1D564 will be exhibit number

17 171. 65 ter 1D565 will be exhibit number 1D172. 65 ter 1D566 will be

18 exhibit number 1D173. 65 ter 1D567 will be exhibit number 1D174. 65 ter

19 1D569 will be exhibit number 1D175. 65 ter 1D570 will be exhibit number

20 1D176. And, finally, 65 ter 1D571 will be exhibit number 1D177.

21 JUDGE PARKER: That last number should be 177 rather than 1766.

22 Ah, it is being corrected.

23 We will therefore adjourn for the day. We resume tomorrow at 2.15

24 for the trial.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of

2 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

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