1 Wednesday, 3 October 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 We had a late start this morning because of the need for some
8 dental treatment to one of the accused.
9 If I could remind you, Mr. Bushi, of the affirmation you made at
10 the beginning of your evidence which still applies.
11 Mr. Apostolski.
12 WITNESS: NAZIM BUSHI [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski: [Continued]
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. Yesterday, you said that all members of the NLA had to wear
18 uniforms. Is this correct?
19 A. It's correct.
20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If the witness may please be
21 shown 65 ter 2D00-207.
22 Q. Do you see the picture in front of you?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Can you recognise the person in the middle of this photograph?
25 A. Not only him, I can recognise all of them.
1 Q. Can you tell us who is the person in the middle of the photograph?
2 A. Commander Ali Ahmeti.
3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the court usher please assist
4 the witness to mark Mr. Ali Ahmeti.
5 Q. Can you circle Mr. Ali Ahmeti, please.
6 A. Mr. Ahmeti, yes.
7 Q. And mark him with the number 5, please.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Do you recognise the person with the beard, to the left of him?
10 A. Commander Hoxha.
11 Q. Can you please mark him with a number 1.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Is it correct that the name of Commander Hoxha is
14 Xhezairi Selajdin?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we seek to tender
17 this exhibit into evidence.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D54, Your Honours.
20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Court Usher, can the witness
21 please be shown photograph 65 ter 2D00-208.
22 Q. Do you see Ali Ahmeti on this photograph?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Can you mark him with the number 5?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. The person kneeling to the utmost left with the number 6 on the
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Can you confirm that on this picture none of the persons are
5 wearing ranks?
6 A. No, I cannot see the ranks here.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski, you had a person marked with a
9 number 6. Do you want that person identified?
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would not want
11 this person to be identified.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, can you please explain to me how this person is dressed?
15 A. Which person do you mean?
16 Q. The person marked as number 6. Is this correct that he is dressed
17 in a green T-shirt, pants, and sneakers?
18 A. I cannot see his footwear. I see the T-shirt, it was part of the
19 uniform. I see that he is wearing a head gear with the NLA insignia.
20 And his trousers here are either black or dark blue. We didn't have dark
21 blue uniforms, but we did have black uniforms. But this picture might
22 have been taken during a free time, when the soldiers could sit around and
24 Q. If the person number 6 were to be stripped of his head wear he
25 would be left with a Kalashnikov and he would not be resembling a member
1 of the NLA but a civilian with a Kalashnikov?
2 A. I wouldn't say that, because the T-shirt is part of the uniform.
3 To what I can see here on the picture, everyone is wearing
4 something that identifies him as member of the NLA. The head gear, the
5 uniforms, the T-shirts.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we seek to tender
7 this exhibit into evidence.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be -- yes, Ms. Regue.
9 MS. REGUE: Excuse me, Your Honour. Could we have the date when
10 this photo was taken and also the previous photo, if it's possible.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that the
13 witness confirmed yesterday that the markings of the NLA are worn from the
14 formation of the NLA until its disarmament, this photograph would have
15 taken from the period of February to September 2001.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Does that mean that you don't have available to you
17 the date where either of these photographs were taken?
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. By the
19 markings and the evidence of witness it should be a period from February
20 to September 2001. In fact, it was confirmed that the person on the
21 photograph was Ali Ahmeti.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.
23 MS. REGUE: What about the location?
24 JUDGE PARKER: You're wanting to know the location, are you. Are
25 you able to assist with that, Mr. Apostolski?
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that the
2 witness confirmed that the NLA was on the territory of the Republic of
3 Macedonia, the precise location is unknown, but nonetheless it is on the
4 territory of the Republic of Macedonia.
5 JUDGE PARKER: You don't know the location either. Is that what
6 you're saying? The witness may be able to help you with either location
7 or date, Mr. Apostolski.
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, can you perhaps identify the location of this photograph?
10 A. You mean on the first photograph or on both of them?
11 Q. I'm now asking you about this photograph.
12 A. According to the people that I see on the photograph, it should be
13 in the Tetovo area, in the Shar mountain.
14 Q. Can you identify perhaps the time when this photograph was taken?
15 A. No. That I cannot do. I don't know the time.
16 Q. At any rate, you can confirm that this is a period between
17 February and September 2001.
18 A. You should know that, if you have it as an exhibit.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Does your answer mean that you know and confirm
21 that, or that you don't know when the photograph is dated?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, sir, when the
23 photograph was taken.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 Now, in respect of the other photograph, are you able to give any
1 identification of the location or the date?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're referring to the first
3 photograph, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, indeed.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can say the location. It is
6 in the premises of the General Staff in the village of Sipkovica in Tetovo
7 area, but I cannot say anything about the time when it was taken. It is
8 taken in the work office of the commander, Ali Ahmeti.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, Ms. Regue, is there anything
11 MS. REGUE: No, Your Honour, we won't object. But just for the
12 record that the time-frame has not been established.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
14 The second photograph will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D55, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] May the witness please be shown
18 photograph 65 ter 2D00-209.
19 Q. Do you recognise the area where this photograph was taken?
20 A. Not the exact location, but I can identify the general area,
21 because I see some people on the photograph and I know in which area they
22 were operating.
23 Q. In which area did they operate?
24 A. This is in the area of Tetovo, in the Shar mountain. In Tetovo
25 area, Shar mountains.
1 Q. In view of the fact that we see green grass in the background, is
2 it right to say that this is a period of spring and summer of 2001?
3 A. I cannot pinpoint the exact time. I can assist you with
4 identifying the persons that I recognise on this photograph.
5 Q. Yes. Can you mark Ali Ahmeti with the number 5.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recognise the person that is kneeling in front of
8 Mr. Ali Ahmeti dressed in black?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 Q. Can you please mark this person with the number 7.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Can you tell me what he is wearing and whether he has the insignia
13 of the NLA?
14 A. This is the -- part of the uniform, the black uniform of the
15 special unit. I can see his full black uniforms. There should be a
16 jacket that is part of this black uniform, and the insignia, the NLA
17 insignia, is on the jacket. And that would make the set of uniform
18 complete. This is the black uniform. It is the black trousers, black
19 shirt and the black footwear.
20 Q. You could, in any event, agree with me that these are summer
21 uniforms, because they're all wearing T-shirts. Did you have just winter
23 A. It does not necessarily mean that it is a summer uniform. But as
24 for the second part of your question, we didn't have winter one.
25 Sir, you should be familiar with the fact that in every regular
1 army and from my experience in the former Yugoslav army and in the army of
2 the Republic of Macedonia, you wear civilian clothes during free time, and
3 this goes also for the NLA. During free time when soldiers were having
4 rest, they were allowed to be dressed in training suits.
5 THE INTERPRETER: In track suits, interpreter's correction.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you see on any of these persons, do you see any of these
8 persons wearing a rank?
9 A. To what I can see, Dreni has it on front. But I'm not completely
10 precise. It resembles a rank to me, but maybe it is not.
11 Q. Thank you. Can the rank please be marked with an X?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. One more question. The free time which you were talking about,
14 which the soldiers used, do they spend their free time with arms, weapons?
15 A. During free time, of course they had their weapons always with
17 Q. So in their free time, they were members of the organisation NLA,
18 were dressed in civilian clothing, and throughout the whole time they had
19 their weapons?
20 A. The light weapons, the pistols and the Kalashnikovs.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, not the Kalashnikovs.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Is it correct that each member of the NLA had a pistol as
24 formation weapons, in addition to the Kalashnikovs?
25 A. No, it's not correct that each and every soldier had that.
1 Q. Can you tell us from a formation point of view, which -- who had
2 to carry a pistol?
3 A. The commanders, starting from the brigade commander, down to the
4 platoon commander, but it was possible also for the soldiers to wear them.
5 It was not prohibited.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we seek to tender
7 this exhibit into evidence.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D56, Your Honours.
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You recognise the General Staff of Ali Ahmeti of the NLA
12 organisation, can you tell us when this was moved to Sipkovica?
13 A. I don't know the exact time.
14 Q. Approximately the month, which month it was moved?
15 A. I don't know the exact time. I don't know the exact time.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
17 photograph 65 ter number 2D00-212.
18 Q. Do you see Ali Ahmeti, and could you please circle him and mark
19 him with the number 5.
20 A. Yes, I see him.
21 Q. Can you tell us or to recognise the location where this photograph
22 was taken?
23 A. No, I cannot recognise it.
24 Q. Can you identify the time when this photograph was taken?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Do you see on this photograph members of the NLA, some dressed in
2 uniforms and others in jeans and T-shirts in the formation?
3 A. I can see that, but this could have -- this photograph could have
4 been taken during the mobilisation of the soldiers during a tour that
5 Mr. Ali Ahmeti made of the unit.
6 Q. Why are, then, some of them dressed in uniforms and some in
7 civilian clothing?
8 A. It depends on which particular moment they arrived there. Maybe
9 they had just arrived and came there to get mobilised.
10 Q. Since yesterday you gave evidence that once people joined the NLA,
11 members of the NLA were issued uniforms. Is this correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct. This could be the moment when they arrived
13 there. We don't know the time when they were photographed.
14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] We seek to tender this exhibit
15 into evidence, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D57, Your Honours.
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
19 the photograph number 2D00-213.
20 I apologise, can the photograph 2D00-214, 65 ter be shown.
21 Q. Could you -- could you please show me in this photograph or could
22 you explain what is the territory where the photograph was taken?
23 A. I don't know where it was taken. I can only say it is not part of
25 Q. Could you describe what was the time-period?
1 A. No, I cannot.
2 Q. Could you agree with me that the -- some of the NLA terrorists are
3 wearing uniforms and some are wearing T-shirts and jeans in this
4 photograph as well?
5 A. Certainly you mean soldiers who are not terrorists. Some are in
6 uniform, some are not, but, as I said -- I have to answer the question you
7 asked me.
8 It was a mobilisation time which went on until the end of July
9 when the Ohrid Framework Agreement was signed.
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could I seek to tender this
11 photograph into evidence.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D58, Your Honours.
14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
15 number 2D00-218.
16 Q. Would you please encircle Mr. Ali Ahmeti and mark it with a number
17 5; and the person who is two men away from him to the left wearing black
18 head gear, could you please mark him with a number 6?
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Wearing green T-shirt.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Could you please tell me, could you recognise the location of this
24 A. I can't tell you where it was taken. I don't recognise all the
25 persons here.
1 Q. Could you please indicate what was the time when this photograph
2 was taken?
3 A. I cannot. I don't know when it was taken.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender
5 this photograph into evidence.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D59, Your Honours.
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
9 the photograph 65 ter number 2D00-219.
10 Q. Could you please encircle the person wearing black trousers, black
11 T-shirt and black head gear and could you mark him with a number 6?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, green T-shirt, not
13 black T-shirt.
14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
15 Q. He is in the middle of the picture in the front row.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Could you please confirm that everyone else is wearing T-shirts
18 and jeans, all the people behind him?
19 A. Not all of them. Some of them. Some are with complete uniforms,
20 but the T-shirt is also part of the uniform because, as you see, they are
21 wearing black trousers.
22 Q. Yes, but some of them are wearing blue jeans?
23 A. I see that.
24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I seek to
25 tender this photograph into evidence.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D60, Your Honours.
3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
4 the photograph 65 ter number 2D00-220.
5 Q. Could you please tell us perhaps where was this photograph taken?
6 A. No, I cannot tell you.
7 Q. The person with the black head gear, second from the left, and in
8 the middle row, could you please mark him with a number 6; the one next to
9 him the first one from the left, the first one in the photograph?
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. The one next to him, the first one in the photograph, could you
12 please mark him with a number 7.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. In the same row, the first person from the right-hand side, could
15 you please mark that with number 8.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. The one at the extreme right, in the middle row, could you mark
18 him with the number 9, wearing green T-shirt and jeans.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Could you please tell me how is the person marked with the number
21 7 dressed?
22 A. The person with number 7 is dressed in T-shirt, which is part of
23 the uniform, with boots, and with a track suit, I think.
24 Q. Could you please describe the person marked with the number 9.
25 What is he wearing?
1 A. A training suit and a T-shirt which is part of the uniform, a
2 green T-shirt. And, in fact, in jeans.
3 Q. Could you please also mark the person kneeling to the right in the
4 bottom row, could you please mark him with a number 10.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Could you please tell me what is he wearing?
7 A. Yes. A T-shirt, part of the uniform, and I can't see very well
8 what he is wearing underneath. I think he is wearing jeans.
9 Q. Are the persons marked with the numbers 7, 9 and 10 and 8, do they
10 wear any NLA?
11 A. Yes, they have the T-shirts.
12 Q. Are they wearing any patches?
13 A. No. No. They -- [Indiscernible] something that goes on top --
14 has the insignia.
15 Q. And if those person would not be together with the others, would
16 they look like civilians?
17 A. Yes. You can identify them on the basis of the T-shirts.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the second microphone of the witness be
19 turned off because there is a lot of noise.
20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Is your answer, yes, they look like civilians?
22 A. No, no. Since they are wearing part of the uniforms, no. I said
23 even earlier, even in regular armies, I will -- I would like to answer,
25 Even in regular armies, I served in two armies myself that of the
1 former Yugoslavia and Macedonia, it has happened sometimes that during my
2 free time as an officer I was wearing a track suit. It doesn't mean that
3 have you to wear the uniform all the time. There are moments when you
4 want to take a rest when you are free.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are having difficulties hearing
6 the witness. Could his other microphone be turned off.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since these are part of the free
8 time activities.
9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You just stated that even in the regular army civilian uniforms
11 were worn. So does it mean that the NLA is not a regular army?
12 A. I am saying this. My point is this: That this was also a regular
13 army, just like any other regular army would be.
14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this photograph
15 be tendered into evidence.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D61, Your Honours.
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
19 Q. With regards to the persons that I asked you about previously in
20 the photograph, if they would be killed, would they look like civilians?
21 THE INTERPRETER: We couldn't pick up the answer, I'm sorry.
22 Can the witness be asked to repeat his last answer.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Could you give your answer again, please,
24 Mr. Bushi.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said no.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 Now there seems to be a good deal of electrical interference
3 coming from somewhere. It is not apparent where. And it is making it
4 very difficult for the witness, in particular, to be heard.
5 [Technical difficulty]
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was told that it
7 seems that the noise comes from this lapel microphone that the technicians
8 asked me to use at the beginning of the trial. It seems that this is the
9 thing creating the noise and I will not use it.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski. Let's hope that
11 improves things.
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
13 65 ter photograph number 2D00-221.
14 Q. Do you see Xhezairi? And if you do, please mark him with a number
15 1. And the person sitting first from the right-hand side, could you
16 please mark him with a number 10.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. No, please mark with the number 10 the person sitting on the
19 extreme right, not next to Hoxha, but on the extreme right.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Do you recognise, maybe, the area where this photograph was taken?
22 A. Yes. On the basis of the persons, the superior officers and the
23 soldiers, I can tell you what part of the zone but not the particular
24 place. I think it's in the Shari zone, in the Tetovo area.
25 Q. Could you please tell me what was the time-period? Could you
1 identify when was this photograph taken?
2 A. I cannot identify the time.
3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could I seek to tender this
4 photograph into evidence.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D62, Your Honours.
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could you tell me about the person marked with the number 10. How
9 old is he, in your opinion?
10 A. In my opinion, I couldn't say exactly how old he is. He might be
11 in his 50s, early 50s. Maybe I'm wrong. I can't be sure.
12 Q. Could you tell me what was the commanding officer post of Hoxha?
13 A. I know that he was the commander of a special unit.
14 Q. Is it correct that the commander Hoxha is directly linked to the
15 Al Qaeda, do you have any such information that?
16 A. That is not true.
17 Q. Very well. And if anyone else would assert before this Tribunal
18 that this is correct, then he would be lying, he would not be telling the
20 A. Yes, I think so.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
23 the photograph number 2D00-235.
24 Q. Could you please mark Hoxha with the number 1.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And the person to the left of him, could you mark him with the
2 number 12.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Could you tell me who is the person lying, wearing NLA insignia in
5 the middle of the photograph? Is he the present mayor of Tetovo,
6 Hazbi Lika?
7 A. Yes, he is. He was for a time commander of 112 Brigade. Then
8 after that he was transferred to the General Staff, and then he -- he was
9 replaced by Ilir Salik [as interpreted].
10 Q. Could you mark him with the number 50.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Does any of the persons here wear ranks?
13 A. I can't distinguish them here. Some of them are also wearing
14 something on their chest.
15 Q. Can you recognise whether they were wearing ranks, and could you
16 circle the ranks. Where are they? Could you mark them with an X. If you
17 see them; then if you don't, then you don't need to mark anything.
18 A. I can't see it clearly, and it's probably the person wearing vests
19 might be wearing ranks, but I can't see it from this picture.
20 Q. So in these photographs you do not see any person wearing ranks.
21 Is that correct?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could I seek to tender this
24 photograph into evidence, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D63, Your Honours.
2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could you please show again the
3 65 ter photograph number 2D00-235, and can we hold it at the screen while
4 at the same time showing the photograph 65 ter number 2D00-236, in order
5 to compare them.
6 Q. Witness, do you see the person wearing the uniform in the
7 photograph on the right-hand side?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does he look like the person at the photograph to the left, the
10 one holding the Kalashnikov?
11 A. Yes, I think so.
12 Q. So could we mark with the number 12 in the photograph on the
13 right-hand side this person?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Could you please describe the person. What is he wearing, the
16 person standing next to him in this photograph and holding a sniper rifle?
17 A. He is wearing dress -- black uniform of the special unit, black
18 trousers and black shirts. On the left side is the NLA logo and the
19 sniper and sneakers.
20 Q. Is he wearing sneakers?
21 A. Yes, he is. I said he is wearing sneakers, but the remainder is
22 part of the uniform. That is, the trousers, the shirts, the weapon, which
23 is a sniper --
24 Q. So if this person were to be killed, would he look like a
1 A. Not at all.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I seek to
4 tender the photograph at the right-hand side of the screen, 65 ter number
5 2D00-236 into evidence.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE PARKER: If you want to tender it with the marking, you'll
9 either have to have it in combination as it appears on the screen at the
10 moment or we need to delete the left hand photograph and mark the right
11 one again.
12 Which would you prefer?
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] In combination, Your Honours, if
14 I may. Both them as they are presently on the screen.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 THE REGISTRAR: It will become Exhibit 2D64, Your Honours.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we usually took the
18 break at 10.30. Considering that we started at 9.30 today, should we take
19 the break now or should I continue my cross-examination so that we have
20 the usual times?
21 JUDGE PARKER: I would continue for about another quarter of an
22 hour, Mr. Apostolski. We'll have to adjust our times today.
23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: Okay.
24 [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown photograph 65 ter
25 2D00-242. This is a photograph obtained from the Prosecution.
1 Q. Do you see on this photograph a small child next to NLA terrorists
2 ready for combat?
3 A. These are not NLA terrorists; rather, NLA soldiers.
4 The children were proud of these soldiers. Whenever they saw
5 them, they tried to come near them. How can a terrorist have an insignia
6 and a uniform?
7 Q. Is this in accordance with the Geneva Conventions to -- for them
8 to be or to act together with children?
9 A. You really surprise me with your question.
10 Sir, this is not true. You have just one purpose in mind. Nobody
11 can justify the killing of Erxhan Aliu, the small child and this should be
12 clear to you. Your purpose -- the purpose of your question is this.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can we seek to tender this
14 exhibit into evidence, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D65, Your Honours.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
18 65 ter number 2D00-243. I would skip this photograph.
19 Can we open the photograph 65 ter 2D00-244. Again, this is the
20 wrong photograph. My apologies.
21 65 ter 2D00-249.
22 Q. Are these indubitably members of the NLA from Macedonia, according
23 to the insignia?
24 A. From what I can see, yes.
25 Q. Can you identify the location where this photograph was taken?
1 A. No, I cannot, because I don't know any of these persons in the
3 Q. Can you perhaps identify the time when it was taken?
4 A. No. I cannot identify the time either.
5 THE INTERPRETER: If the counsel could please wait for the witness
6 to finish his answer because there is overlapping and it is difficult for
7 the interpreters to follow.
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can you see and tell us what the writings on those T-shirts are?
10 A. Approximately something like Oxha but I cannot read it clearly.
11 It could be Oxha but it could be not either.
12 Q. Can you circle the person with the long hair with the number 15 --
13 and mark him with the number 15?
14 A. [Marks]
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Your microphone was off, I believe.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. And I have
18 been warned by the interpreters and perhaps, as a result of this, they did
19 not hear the question.
20 Q. Can you please mark the first person to the right with the number
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And the first person to the left with the number 17.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Can you describe the person marked with the number 16? Can you
1 explain to us how he is dressed?
2 A. To what can I see, he is wearing jeans and T-shirt, which is part
3 of the uniform, and he is wearing the NLA insignia.
4 Q. Were jeans part of your uniform?
5 A. No, sir, they were not part of the uniform.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a
7 photograph MFI, 1D--
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies Your Honour, for this
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] This photograph MFI 1D94. Is it
12 possible to show at the same time photograph 65 ter number 2D00-250 and --
13 in order to make a comparison.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski, if you want these markings it will
15 have to be received as it is first.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- yes, Your
17 Honours, we seek to tender this document into evidence first because I
18 would like to make -- to compare this one with another photograph.
19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D66, Your Honours.
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] We can see photograph 65 ter
22 2D00-249, and, at the same time, photograph 65 ter number 2D00-250, in
23 order to compare them.
24 Q. Are you able to see the two photographs in front of you?
25 A. Yes, I am.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can we enlarge somewhat the
2 photograph on the right, the person on the utmost left. Left.
3 Q. Does this resemble anyone from the previous picture?
4 A. Yes, he does.
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can we zoom out the picture
6 in its regular size?
7 Q. The third person on the left, does this person resemble any person
8 on the other photograph on the left?
9 A. A little bit, yes.
10 Q. Can you mark this on the right photograph with the number 16.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Can the person on the utmost left please be marked with the number
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Can you tell us how he is dressed, the person identified with the
16 number 16?
17 A. Number 16 is dressed in jeans and in T-shirt without the insignia.
18 Q. Can you mark the person next to the number 16, the one with the
19 hand raised up high, with the number 17.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does this person resemble any of the persons on the left
23 A. I don't know that. You may say he resembles, but I cannot see him
25 Q. Perhaps to assist you, does it resemble perhaps the person on the
1 extreme left of this photograph?
2 A. He may resemble him.
3 Q. Can you tell us how the other persons on this photograph on the
4 right are dressed, the photograph on the right?
5 A. To what I can see, they're all civilians.
6 Q. Do you see the person third from -- going from the right to the
7 left holding a Kalashnikov?
8 A. Yes, I can see him.
9 Q. Is it your evidence also that he, too, is civilian?
10 A. From what I can see at this moment, he looks like a civilian but
11 it is also possible that this group of people came there to join the ranks
12 of the NLA.
13 Q. Can you please respond whether this person resembles a civilian to
14 you, a yes and a no -- or a no, please.
15 A. Since he is wearing civilian clothes, yes.
16 Q. On the photograph on the right, do you see a person wearing the
17 insignia of the NLA?
18 A. No, except for number 15. I see the insignia on the chest. I can
19 see a red colour, but I cannot see insignia on the others.
20 Q. If these persons were to be attacked by the Macedonian security
21 forces and killed, would they resemble civilians?
22 A. Excuse me, if the person with number 15 was killed, he is an NLA,
23 he has a uniform, the insignia. As for the rest, I would say that they
24 were civilians.
25 Q. The presumption that let's say that they were attacked, that the
1 Macedonian security forces attacked this group and the person identified
2 with number 15 succeeded in escaping, would this mean that the other
3 persons who were killed would be civilians?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we seek to tender
7 this document into evidence together, both photographs jointly.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.
9 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, my learned colleague has -- we will
10 object first of all to this request as my learned colleague has not
11 established the time when these two photos were taken, neither the context
12 where these photos were taken. And also he is not able to say whether the
13 other people who are dressed in civilian clothes ever joined the NLA or if
14 they are -- if they were members of the NLA. He cannot speak for the rest
15 of the people. He can only identify a couple of them.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, together with the
18 previous photograph where we see the same persons wearing a uniform
19 confirmed by the witness, uniforms with the NLA insignia, I link the other
20 photographs because the persons 16 and 17 are identified as well as 15 are
21 identified as members of the NLA. This was done so by the witness. In
22 view of the fact that we're talking about the same persons, I believe that
23 this is relevant evidence that should be received by the Court.
24 JUDGE PARKER: The difficulty, Mr. Apostolski, apart from the
25 person numbered as 15, is that there is no way of knowing which photograph
1 was taken first in time. So it may be that when the photograph on the
2 right-hand side was taken, nobody there was a member of the NLA.
3 You see the problem of time?
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, person -- the
5 person on the right of the photograph, the one with the Kalashnikov, the
6 T-shirt, jeans, and sneakers third from the left confirms that we have in
7 question here an armed persons together in the presence with the person
8 numbered with 15, a member of the NLA.
9 The witness claimed that NLA was disarmed in September, 26th of
10 September. Therefore, this photograph must have been taken prior to 26th
11 of September, in the period between February and 26th of September.
12 Therefore, in view of the fact that the terms of indictment is this
13 time-frame and the case of the Defence is that the NLA was infiltrated
14 together with civilians and that the members of the NLA in civilian
15 clothing went into the villages, I believe that this photographs should be
16 received by this esteemed Court.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.
18 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour. I reiterate that the problem is the
19 time; we don't know when this photo was taken. And the fact that two
20 people resemble on the right photo two people from the left photo and the
21 fact that maybe some of them on the right photo are wearing weapons, that
22 doesn't establish that this photo was taken within the time-period that my
23 learned colleague is mentioning, because we don't know whether these
24 weapons were from the NLA or where they were coming from.
25 JUDGE PARKER: The identification of number 15 appears to the
1 Chamber to offer a sufficient basis for receiving the photograph, but we
2 have already indicated, Mr. Apostolski, that in the absence of any further
3 evidence there appears difficulty in being able to attach any weight to
4 this photograph for other purposes.
5 But it will be received in evidence and we will see whether other
6 evidence does provide any assistance in due course.
7 It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D67, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Apostolski.
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, this is -- I
11 wanted to propose whether this would be a good time to break.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 We will resume at 25 past.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.53 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Apostolski.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honour, if you
18 would allow me to say something.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask to you let me
21 speak about the last photograph so that we all are clear.
22 Two elements are very important that I would like to point out
23 here. Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE PARKER: It would be better if the course of the ordinary
1 procedure were followed. It has been noted already, I'm sure, by the
2 Prosecution that you want to say something more about those photographs,
3 and it will be a matter which they can take up.
4 So, Mr. Apostolski, if you would continue.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, could you agree with me that an attack of a train is a
8 terrorist attack -- the attack of a passenger train is a terrorist attack.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you agree with me that an attack on a court would be a
11 terrorist attack?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you agree with me that planting dynamite in a church ten
14 centuries old and its destruction is a terrorist attack?
15 A. Yes, I've pointed this out earlier.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown a
17 video-clip bis -- 65 ter -- there's no sound. Without a 65 ter and
18 without a sound.
19 Can we please show the video-clip.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] That's fine, thank you.
22 Q. Can you agree with me what you have seen just now would be a
23 terrorist act, according to you, and a terrorist attack?
24 A. No. I don't agree with you on -- at this moment. There was
25 combat going on there. There was shelling from all sides. And you should
1 support your claim that we are the ones who carried that out by facts.
2 Q. Can you tell me whether you know which church is in question here?
3 A. If we could play it again. I cannot tell you right now.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the video-clip be shown
6 [Videotape played]
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Can you see the church now, and do you recognise the church?
9 A. It could be in Matejce. Not necessarily, but it looks to me like
10 it's there.
11 Q. I shall assist you. Does this perhaps resemble to you the church
12 in the Lesok monastery?
13 A. Maybe. Maybe. I have not seen the monastery at Lesok.
14 Q. Is it correct that the Lesok monastery was mined and destroyed by
15 the terrorist organisation ONA in 2001, in August 2001?
16 A. It is not a terrorist organisation. It is the National Liberation
17 Army, and it is not true that it was mined by this army.
18 Q. Therefore, your evidence before this Chamber is that the Lesok
19 monastery was not destroyed by the NLA in August 2001?
20 A. Yes. And I'm saying this with full responsibility. If such a
21 thing had happened in Lesok, a similar thing would have happened in the
22 other monastery which we had in our possession for the entire time.
23 Q. Is it correct that the Matejce monastery was under your control?
24 A. Yes, the upper part of the monastery in Matejce.
25 Q. Is it correct that the church and the frescos from the monastery
1 were damaged by members of your brigade?
2 A. In which aspect do you mean "damaged"? Could you be more clear on
4 Q. Were they desecrated by markings over them?
5 A. It could be, but not damaged or destroyed. It is possible that
6 there were things written on it.
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
8 2D136, 65 ter 2D236.
9 Q. Do you see the photograph in front of you?
10 A. Yes, I do. Yes.
11 Q. Is this a photograph from the monastery in Matejce?
12 A. I think so.
13 Q. When you say that something was written on the walls, did you have
14 in mind this symbol which you see now over the frescos?
15 A. Most probably, symbols or other writings, I don't know. But as
16 far as destruction or damage of religious facilities is concerned there
17 weren't such.
18 Q. According to you, is this desecration of a religious facility?
19 A. It depends on who is making the comment. I wouldn't say so. You
20 have levelled with earth all the mosques, sir, and we didn't do anything
21 to your churches.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
23 2D -- 65 ter 2D139.
24 Q. Do you recall that in the monastery of Matejce this fresco was
25 desecrated in this manner?
1 A. I don't remember this, and I don't know which time-frame you're
2 referring to when you mention the monastery in Matejce.
3 Q. I'm talking about the period during which you were in the
4 monastery. You know that the church is eight centuries old. Do you know
5 of this?
6 A. I know and I will repeat again, sir, that this could have happened
7 even after the demobilisation of the NLA. Do you have any information
8 about the time-period when this was done?
9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I seek to
10 tender into evidence the photograph 65 ter 2D136, which was identified by
11 the witness that he was aware -- he actually recognised the church where
12 his brigade was located. That would be the previous photograph.
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
14 Were you wanting to speak, Ms. Regue, I looked and thought you
15 were --
16 MS. REGUE: I wasn't going object, Your Honour. Just wanted to
17 know if he could provide with the time. If ...
18 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to help there, Mr. Apostolski?
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the photograph
20 itself, one could see an NLA member with a black and red insignia and the
21 witness confirmed that it was worn between March and September. And the
22 witness himself verified that this was the monastery where his brigade was
23 located and the witness himself said that there were graffiti written on
24 the walls. So I think that the Court should receive it into evidence.
25 JUDGE PARKER: The answer is you can't give us a date but you
1 would like it to be admitted and it will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D68, Your Honours.
3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Witness, let me ask you something: Were the members of your
5 organisation supposed to carry out their tasks and duties pursuant to the
6 constitution, the Law on Defence and the internal rules?
7 A. Which constitution and Law on Defence are you referring to?
8 Q. Of Macedonia.
9 A. No. At the time we did not recognise the constitution of
11 Q. Did the NLA play a role in the defence of Kosovo?
12 A. Which UCK are you referring to?
13 Q. Did the NLA, ONA, your organisation, NLA, play a role in the
14 defence of Kosovo?
15 A. I'm not clear on your question, sir. The UCK of Macedonia was
16 formed after the liberation of Kosova.
17 Q. So the NLA in Macedonia did not play any role in the defence of
18 Kosovo. Is that correct?
19 A. What protection are you talking about? Against whom would the NLA
20 protect Kosova? Please ask the question more clearly.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.
22 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, the Prosecution was wondering about the
23 relevance of this line of questioning to the present case.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Can you help us with that, Mr. Apostolski.
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I wish the witness, since he has
1 been a commander of one of the brigades to confirm whether the NLA
2 infiltrated into Kosovo or was it the other way around: The members of
3 the UCK, KLA from Kosovo came to Macedonia.
4 JUDGE PARKER: What happened in Kosovo doesn't immediately appear
5 to have any bearing upon this case, unless you are able to suggest some
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] To say honestly, Your Honour, I
8 need this answer in order to question another witness.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Then I will withdraw the
11 question. I'm withdrawing the question.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, then, Mr. Apostolski.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Did the NLA in March take down two helicopters, destroyed two
15 tanks and four APCs and has it seized significant quantity of ammunition,
16 are you aware of this?
17 A. I'm not aware of the real number. I only know that material
18 damage was inflicted on the Macedonian side.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, line 35, 19, armoured
20 vehicles and not APCs.
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Were two helicopters of the Macedonian security forces taken down?
23 A. I said I don't know the accurate number, but to my recollection,
25 Q. Did the NLA have the 40th Medicine Battalion -- Medical Battalion?
1 A. There was a battalion, general medical battalion of the NLA, but I
2 don't know the number that you are referring to.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
5 questions of this witness. I just wish to seek into evidence the
6 video-clip from the press conference of Mr. George Robertson,
7 Secretary-General of NATO and high representative of foreign and security
8 policy of the European Union Javier Solana, the video we watched yesterday
9 and for which we had prepared an English transcript of the entire press
10 conference and it is now in e-court, 65 ter 2D00-384.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received, together with the transcript.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D69, Your Honours.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Also, I would like to seek to
14 tender into evidence the interview with Mark Dickenson, ambassador of
15 Great Britain in the Republic of Macedonia in 2001 from the end of March.
16 And a transcript of it was made, number 65 ter 2D00-385.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D70, Your Honours.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I also seek to tender into
20 evidence the interview with Mark Dickenson, the Great Britain ambassador
21 in Macedonia in 2001, made at the beginning of May 2001. The video-clip
22 as well as the transcript with the number 65 ter 2D00-386.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D71, Your Honours.
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
1 no further questions of this witness. I have finished my
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.
4 Ms. Regue.
5 MS. REGUE: Could we please call Exhibit P461 and go to page 1 of
6 the document. The second page, please.
7 Re-examination by Ms. Regue:
8 Q. Mr. Bushi, we can see in front of us the regulation on the
9 competencies and work of the brigade command. You were asked by my
10 learned colleague on page 5646 whether you had in your unit an office for
11 public relations and a public information office.
12 Excuse me, can we please turn to the next page, page number 2.
13 Do you recall, Mr. Bushi, being asked these questions by my
14 learned colleague?
15 A. Yes, I recall.
16 Q. You testified that you had an officer for morale and information
17 and also that you had an information centre shared between the 113 and
18 14th brigade which was located in the Karadak region. If we could have
19 also the Macedonian table of contents.
20 Were these people and was this unit performing the functions that
21 the office for public relations and the office for public information
22 would do, would generally take care of?
23 A. Their task was to collect all information -- can you hear me?
24 Q. Yes, I can hear you. But my question was basically whether this
25 person that you mentioned, your officer for morale and the information
1 centre that you had in Karadak would be taking care of the functions
2 described in the position of the office for information and public
3 relations and also within the information sector. Would these people and
4 would this centre be taking care of these functions?
5 A. Yes, it would. Such persons had this responsibility. We had a
6 centre for information for Brigade 113 and 14 there were two officers,
7 Brigade 114 had its own officer, Brigade 113 had its own, whereas the
8 centre for information was one. The duty was to collect all the
9 information during the day, to go to the terrain, to tour the army units,
10 and in a way, to help raise the morale of the soldiers, inform them of the
11 current situation and of what was going on.
12 Q. Thanks. You were also asked about the position of legal advisor
13 that we see in number five of this table of contents and you were also
14 asked about the position of the department for civilian affairs that we
15 see in number 14. And you testified in the negative.
16 If the war would have come -- would have not come to an end, which
17 other positions you would have set up within your brigade?
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
19 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I was awaiting the answer of the
20 witness if he wants to answer this question first, but this is totally
21 speculative. The issue which is relevant is insofar as the structure or
22 the pretended structure of this organ is concerned is what existed at the
23 time relevant to the charges, not at any time after that.
24 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, with all due respect, this witness
25 testified that he was in the process of establishing the formation of the
1 brigade. So therefore I would like to explore this point.
2 JUDGE PARKER: You want to learn what are the roles of the two
3 positions you've named which were not filled at the time.
4 MS. REGUE: I would like to know which other positions was he
5 expecting to create.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Please proceed, Ms. Regue.
7 MS. REGUE: Thanks.
8 Q. Do you want me to repeat my question, Mr. Bushi?
9 A. No, it is clear to me. All the positions that were foreseen on
10 the basis of the military formations and the internal rules were to be
12 MS. REGUE: Now could we please show 65 ter 2D00-367, page 6.
13 This is the statement of Mr. Gezim Ostreni.
14 If we could go to page number 6, paragraph 28. If we could
15 enlarge paragraph 28, please. Thanks. Also in the Macedonian so the
16 witness ...
17 Q. In page 5934, you were asked about the adoption of military
18 standards and procedures within your brigade and you were read a sentence
19 from paragraph 28 from the statement of Mr. Gezim Ostreni. In particular,
20 "because of the short period between March 2001, when I joined the NLA,
21 and early August, when the Ohrid Agreement was signed, it was impossible
22 to adopt all planned military standards and procedures."
23 What would you consider this plan, military standards and
24 procedures, that Mr. Ostreni is referring?
25 A. During the implementation of the rules, certainly, certainly
1 during the -- during the implementation of the rules, from the beginning
2 to the end.
3 Q. So if I understood you correctly he was saying that from the
4 beginning to the end it was impossible to achieve, to implement all the
5 regulations. That's what you are stating.
6 A. Even though it was the beginning of July, rather late, the
7 formation of Brigade 114 we didn't manage to set up all the structures in
8 the context of Brigade 114 but we did set up most of them.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that we hear constant
11 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour and actually my computer apparently
12 made the screen disappear, sorry. If I can ... I cannot see the
13 transcript, basically. That's the problem.
14 JUDGE PARKER: We'll attempt to secure a technician to help, Ms.
16 MS. REGUE: Thanks.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to look at another screen in the
19 MS. REGUE: Yeah, I will manage to look at the other one. Thanks.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 MS. REGUE:
22 Q. Thanks, Mr. Bushi.
23 MS. REGUE: Now, could we please display 65 ter 1D823 and if we
24 could go to page 1D00-7210. If we could go to the second page, please.
25 And focus in paragraph (b).
1 Q. Mr. Bushi, you just testified that in free time it was not
2 necessarily required to wear uniforms. Therefore, if a soldier was not
3 engaged in any combat activity, was it required to wear uniforms?
4 A. That was -- that is true.
5 Q. Could you clarify, what is true, that if he is not engaged in
6 combat activities he doesn't have -- is not required to wear uniforms?
7 A. Yes, that's it. If he was in his free time, they were not obliged
8 to wear uniforms. But when they were in an action, or in the course of
9 duty, at the point they were supposed to be stationed, then they should
10 wear uniform.
11 Q. Now, you were shown by my learned colleague this document and in
12 particular he read to you paragraph (b), where it says that on the 6th of
13 March, 2001, alleged members of the NLA were not wearing uniform when
14 withdrawing from Tanushevc. Is this particular case, this example -- is
15 this particular case an example where uniforms would not be required?
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.
17 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, we would object on a preliminary
18 basis the witness has not given any evidence that he knew of that
19 particular incident. I would also indicate for the record that the --
20 this document was refused admission when we used it. But the most
21 important matter in this connection is if Ms. Regue intends to ask the
22 witness whether he can give any evidence as to whether this particular
23 case of record of members of the NLA not wearing any uniform is an
24 indication of members of the NLA being on vacation or out of duty. He
25 should be asked whether he knows of the incident in question.
1 From the answers which were given by the witness during my
2 questioning or the questioning by the Defence it would seem that it
3 didn't, but I believe it would have to be ascertained in the first place.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.
5 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honours.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
7 MS. REGUE: -- focus on this particular case, my question was, in
8 general when a NLA soldier was withdrawing from its position, if that was
9 an example of combat operation in that particular case he was required to
10 wear uniforms.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Could you wait, please.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Please continue, Ms. Regue.
15 MS. REGUE: Thanks, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Bushi, when members of the NLA were withdrawing from positions
17 that they were occupying, is this an example where uniform is not required
18 to be worn?
19 A. No. During the withdrawal from the position they had to wear
20 uniforms. Only during their free time they may not be wearing uniform, if
21 they didn't wish to do so.
22 Q. Mr. Bushi, when they are withdrawing from a position, are they
23 engaged in any sort of military action?
24 A. It depends on the circumstances.
25 Q. Which circumstances?
1 A. If there are war circumstances, then the withdrawal is done in
3 Q. Thanks. You were also shown the video depicting the photo of
4 Commander Teli. Do you recall that?
5 A. Yes, I recall it.
6 Q. And you testified that he was caught out of action when he was
7 killed. What did you mean with that? This is in page 5943, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I apologise to interrupt again but I
10 remember the evidence of the witness to have been that Mr. Teli had been
11 sent to Skopje for the purpose of doing reconnaissance, and this would
12 indicate that he was actually on active duty at the time.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.
14 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour, I can explore this issue further if
15 you wish.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
17 MS. REGUE:
18 Q. Mr. Teli was sent to Skopje -- you testified he was sent to Skopje
19 in an observation and reconnaissance mission. Correct?
20 A. Yes. Yeah, you could call that Mr. Teli was in a reconnaitre
21 mission. At the moment he was killed he was resting; he was actually
23 Q. Okay. Taking your question, would you say that when a person is
24 resting -- when a person is sleeping, is he required to wear uniforms?
25 A. No, he is not.
1 Q. Thanks. You were also shown today several photos, exhibits 2D54,
2 to exhibits 2D67. Do you recall these photos that my learned colleague
3 Mr. Apostolski showed to you today?
4 A. Yes, I remember. I would like to make a comment on the last
5 photo, if possible.
6 Q. Could you please answer my questions first, Mr. Bushi.
7 I would like to know whether the people that you saw in these
8 photos were actively engaged in military operations when these photos were
10 A. It depends on the moment when the photo was taken. Some of them
11 were active in the NLA.
12 Q. Okay. So in case -- but my question was, Mr. Bushi, whether these
13 photos that you testified that they were taken when the -- probably during
14 the mobilisation of some of the soldiers. They were actually in action,
15 in the field, fighting?
16 A. It doesn't mean that they were fighting. It may be during a war
17 period but not necessarily fighting.
18 Q. Okay. So let's distinguish these two points.
19 They were in the war period but in the photos were they
20 participating -- were they actually fighting in any combat?
21 A. No. No. They were not fighting.
22 Q. Thanks.
23 MS. REGUE: Could we please go back to Mr. Ostreni's statement,
24 which is 65 ter 2D00-367, page number 6.
25 And if we can enlarge paragraph 28. Thanks.
1 Q. You were read in page 5939, paragraph 28 of Mr. Ostreni's
2 statement. I'm going to read it aloud to you again: "From the beginning,
3 the functional and disciplinary authority in the NLA was not determined by
4 the rank system but by the hierarchy of positions. Therefore, in the NLA
5 it was common when addressing a senior member, to address him with a
6 functional position like brigade commander, rather with the rank
7 corresponding to this position."
8 Mr. Bushi, when you had -- when you had the position of brigade
9 commander and you had the rank of colonel, were you the person in the
10 114th Brigade who had both the highest rank and also the highest position
11 in the hierarchy of the 114th Brigade?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. To your knowledge, was this the case in the other brigades?
14 A. Yeah, I think so.
15 Q. Would you agree that establishing a system of ranks would take
16 some time, meaning producing sufficient number of ranks and deliver them
17 to the field was not one thing, one matter which could be done in a couple
18 of days?
19 A. Yes, these things cannot happen overnight.
20 Q. Would you agree that the NLA progressively during 2001 introduced
21 the ranks within its brigades?
22 A. Yes, it was something that was done progressively.
23 Q. In page --
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.
25 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour simply to indicate that we
1 believe if the Prosecution were to seek to rely on this evidence as a
2 matter relevant to their case, the time-period during which the
3 Prosecution claims those ranks were introduced should be specified, we
4 believe, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.
6 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour. Actually, I'm trying to find out
7 that from the evidence from the witness which was the time-period.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Please proceed with that inquiry.
9 MS. REGUE: Thanks, Your Honour.
10 Q. Are you aware, if you are aware, how long -- how it should take in
11 order to establish this system of ranks, considering that you joined the
12 NLA in July 2001?
13 A. It lasted until it was disbanded. I stated even earlier we knew
14 when we started it, but we didn't know when it was going to end.
15 Q. Maybe you didn't understand my question, Mr. Bushi.
16 Just let me start. When you joined the NLA in the 1st of July,
17 2001, did you have in your brigade a full system of ranks established?
18 A. In July, not all. This was something that was going on.
19 Q. Thanks.
20 MS. REGUE: I think that I addressed Mr. Mettraux's concern, Your
22 Q. In page 5937, you testified that you detained members of your
23 brigade after they had failed to comply with internal rules of the NLA.
24 Do you recall giving this evidence, Mr. Bushi?
25 A. Yes, I recall.
1 Q. Which actions did you take, which procedure did you follow after
2 these persons were detained?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.
4 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, that may not be so important, but I
5 think the question should be asked correctly. The evidence at 5937 was
6 that it was one person singular, not persons that was subjected to any
7 such disciplinary measures.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I think that is right, is it Ms. Regue?
9 MS. REGUE: Actually the question that was asked, it was in
10 singular: Do you recall whether the military police in your brigade had
11 ever detained someone, a member of your brigade, for not observing the
12 discipline? Yes. So he was asking in the singular, Your Honour.
13 So if you wish I can inquire whether they actually detained or
14 arrested more people.
15 JUDGE PARKER: So you want to find out whether only one person was
16 arrested or more?
17 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Please proceed.
19 MS. REGUE:
20 Q. Mr. Bushi, did you detain one or more members of your brigade for
21 failing to comply with internal rules?
22 A. There were more than one.
23 Q. Can you recall the approximate number, Mr. Bushi?
24 A. During that period, I cannot give an accurate number because when
25 they were detained they were kept for one or two days. I would say
1 maximum ten persons, not more than that.
2 Q. You just said that they were kept for one or two days. So after
3 you detained them and you -- and you kept them, what would you do
5 A. After that small detention, let's say, we -- an officer talked to
6 them and the commander was one -- Commander Xhaviti was one of such
7 officers who went to meet them, to talk with them, to advise them not do
8 such things, to improve their behaviour. Things like this.
9 Q. Thanks.
10 MS. REGUE: Could we please display 65 ter 1D905, page number 5.
11 Yeah, if we could -- if we could go to the bottom of the page,
13 Q. Mr. Bushi, in pages 5867 and also in pages 5936, you were asked
14 about this statement that you made during proofing. These are the
15 proofing notes, Your Honours.
16 In particular, with regards to the paragraph which reads -- I will
17 read it to you because it is only in English: "It took two to three days
18 to form the 114th Brigade. It did not take long to form the brigade
19 because the 114th was an extension of the 113th which was already in
20 existence. New members and some of the members of the 113th were taken to
21 form the 114th."
22 In response to my colleague's question you answer: "That it took
23 two to three days to set up the staff, but mobilisation and establishment
24 of the brigade continued until the end, until demobilisation."
25 Could you please explain what did you mean when you were drawing
1 this distinction between the setting up of the staff and mobilisation and
2 establishment of the brigade?
3 A. The establishment of the brigade staff is done according to the
4 formation to fill in these formations with the number available to us. As
5 for mobilisation of the brigade, it carried on till the demobilisation of
6 the NLA, till the 26th of September because, at that time, we didn't know
7 when the war would end.
8 If the Ohrid Agreement was not signed, the mobilisation would have
9 continued beyond the 26th. This was a voluntary army, and we didn't have
10 a designated number, 2.000 or 3.000 soldiers. Everyone who came to join,
11 they became soldiers of the NLA.
12 MS. REGUE: Could we please call again 65 ter 2D00-367, page 11.
13 It is Mr. Ostreni's statement again.
14 Q. In pages 5931 until 5933, you were asked about coordinate
15 operations with other brigades and you testified that you only had
16 coordination activities with the 113th Brigade as far as the front line is
17 concerned. Furthermore, you were also asked whether each brigade worked
18 in coordination with the General Staff and you answer in the positive.
19 Then you were read paragraph 53 of Mr. Ostreni's statement. In
20 particular, you were read: "Every brigade had an area, zone of
21 responsibility, and each was fighting according to its own plan and
22 judgement. We actually did not have a chance to conduct any coordinate
23 operations involving several brigades because the cease-fire agreement was
24 in force from 6 July and we respected it."
25 After being read this extract of Mr. Ostreni, you were confronted
1 that your evidence and Ostreni's evidence was contradictory. Would you
2 agree that the statement, this paragraph is talking about coordinate
3 activities between brigades?
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.
5 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we believe that the interpretation of
6 the statement given by someone else should be left to that someone else
7 when he comes to testify or to the Judges to the extent that the paragraph
8 in question could be put to the Judges. I don't think it is for the
9 witness to interpret the purported statement of another witness.
10 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, this witness was confronted with these --
11 exactly with this two, three lines and it was put to him that it was in
12 contradiction. I just wanted to explore whether he believes that this is
13 in contradiction with what he has stated.
14 JUDGE PARKER: I think that is a proper subject for
15 re-examination, Ms. Regue. Please continue.
16 MS. REGUE:
17 Q. Mr. Bushi, do you want me to ask you again, or did you understand
18 my question?
19 A. I understood your question. No need to repeat yourself.
20 My statement is not contradictory to his statement. It depends on
21 how people understand it. When I said coordination between brigades it
22 was not coordination of action but coordination as far as the front line
23 is concerned, because we shared the same front line. And all our actions
24 were carried out pursuant to the planning and to the immediate judgment,
25 assessment of the situation. There were specific cases when we had to
1 coordinate with General Gezim Ostreni but these were not everyday cases.
2 These were special cases.
3 Q. Okay. About this coordination, about this dialogue with
4 Mr. Gezim Ostreni, was -- would that dialogue take place during your daily
6 A. No.
7 Q. When it would take place then? I'm referring actually about your
8 daily communication with Mr. Gezim Ostreni, if you were discussing these
9 issues during your daily communication with Mr. Gezim Ostreni.
10 A. Mr. Gezim Ostreni during our everyday communications we would
11 inform him about the situation in the terrain, about the activities
12 carried out by us until that moment and about future activities, what we
13 planned to do.
14 Q. From the side of Mr. Ostreni, what he would tell you during these
15 daily communications?
16 A. It depended on the information we provided him with. He would add
17 something as far as the activities of the brigade were concerned, and the
18 tasks received from General Staff.
19 Q. So basically he will issue orders, tasks? Can I take that from
20 your answer?
21 A. Yes, of course.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
23 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, the Defence will ask that this
24 question and the evidence which was given by the witness either be
25 redacted or given no weight, Your Honour. This was not the evidence of
1 the witness; it was evidence given by counsel.
2 The second issue, Your Honour, is we really believe that to the
3 extent that the Prosecution believed those issues to be relevant to its
4 case, in fairness it should have been put in examination-in-chief not in
6 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, it was actually put in
7 examination-in-chief and this witness testified about his daily briefings
8 with Mr. Gezim Ostreni through satellite phones.
9 JUDGE PARKER: And in re-examination what is the issue?
10 MS. REGUE: I was just trying to -- I was just trying to, Your
11 Honours, to draw the distinction between an alleged contradiction that my
12 learned colleague put to the witness which we believe that it was in
13 existence because two different matters were actually put on the table to
14 the witness: Coordination between brigades and communication or
15 coordination with General Staff. That's why it was [Indiscernible] in
17 JUDGE PARKER: It would appear, Mr. Mettraux, that there is a
18 sound enough basis for the course of re-examination on this point. By
19 making that observation, we say nothing about what weight we will attach
20 to the matter.
21 MR. METTRAUX: We're grateful, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 MS. REGUE: Could we have displayed, please, Exhibit P321. And if
24 we can go to page bearing ERN R037-6858.
25 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Bushi, that -- that you were shown during
1 cross-examination this document?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In pages 5871 until 5874, you made some comments with regards to
4 this page and also to the following pages. In particular, you testified
5 that 117th and -- you made some comments in particular with regards to
6 111th and 114th. Do you recall making those comments?
7 A. Yes, the 114th existed. The Fadin Imani, Tigri Brigade, based in
8 Nikustak while 111th Brigade was at a state of readiness.
9 Q. Excuse me, I meant 111th and 117th, not 14th.
10 A. The 111st was a brigade in a state of readiness, whilst 117th -- I
11 did not know that such a thing existed.
12 Q. Are you able to see in the chart that actually these two brigades
13 are depicted with intermittent lines. Are you able to see that in the
15 A. Yes, I can see it.
16 Q. Aside from these corrections, Mr. Bushi, is this structure
17 correct, adequate in the meaning that the brigades are reporting up to the
18 General Staff and the General Staff is ordering down to the brigades?
19 A. Yes. That's true.
20 MS. REGUE: Could we please go to the next page, please.
21 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Bushi, being shown this chart as well?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thanks. Mr. Bushi, you testified that your political leader was
24 Ali Ahmeti. Correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you see Ali Ahmeti in the higher-up of this structure?
2 A. Yes, I see it.
3 Q. You also testified that Ali Ahmeti had a close group of people
4 working with him. Correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Despite the corrections that you made with regards to three names,
7 I believe, would you agree that the structure reflects this general
8 situation, with regards to the political leadership of the NLA?
9 A. The names here, yes; but it is possible that there were other
10 names as well.
11 Q. Thanks.
12 MS. REGUE: Could we please move to the next page.
13 Q. Do you recall being shown this chart in cross-examination,
14 Mr. Bushi?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you recall correcting some names mentioned in this chart?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Did you have a military leadership or military command which had
19 in the higher up Mr. Ostreni and Mr. Ahmeti, Mr. Bushi?
20 A. Could you please repeat your question.
21 Q. Sure. Within the military leadership, who were the people who
22 were in the higher positions of the military leadership of the NLA,
23 Mr. Bushi?
24 A. Mr. Ahmeti and the General Gezim Ostreni.
25 Q. Does this chart reflect these facts that both of these people were
1 at the higher top -- at the top positions of the structure?
2 A. Yes, it does.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Could we inquire, Ms. Regue, whether you are about
4 to finish or whether it would be preferable to have a break at this point.
5 MS. REGUE: This is actually one more page with regards to these
6 documents so if we can wrap up this subject matter it would be more
8 JUDGE PARKER: Okay.
9 MS. REGUE: If we could move to the next page.
10 Q. Do you recall seeing this chart, Mr. Bushi, during
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Do you recall introducing changes with regards to the names of
14 some of the brigade commanders?
15 A. Yes, did I change the names.
16 Q. I think that you clarified the names of the brigade commanders of
17 the 112th and the 113th and also your first name, with regards to the
18 114th. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But you agree with the names of the brigade commanders, the
21 remaining brigade commanders. Do you recall that, Mr. Bushi?
22 A. As they look now, they weren't those, but with the changes that I
23 made, those remained until the end.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.
25 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, so that the question perhaps is put
1 more precisely to the witness, he has also indicated that he did not know
2 two of the purported brigade commander.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Regue.
4 MS. REGUE:
5 Q. Yes, Mr. Bushi, do you see in the higher up of this structure
6 Mr. Gezim Ostreni?
7 A. Yes, I see that.
8 Q. Was he the person that the brigade commanders were reporting to
9 and the person who was issuing the orders to the brigade commanders?
10 A. Yes, that's the person.
11 Q. Does the chart reflects this general structure, this structure?
12 A. As a diagram, yes; but not with the names on it now. With the
13 corrections that I made, yes.
14 Q. Including the corrections that you made, the diagram, the
15 structure is an accurate description of the way that the NLA was working?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, this would be a convenient time.
18 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at a quarter past.
19 It would appear that it is not going to be feasible to commence
20 the next witness in the remaining time today from what we judge to be the
21 progress. I indicate that in case, Mr. Saxon, it may be possible to give
22 some indication to the witness.
23 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.43 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.
2 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honours.
3 Could we please called Exhibit P462.
4 Q. Mr. Bushi, you were asked, I believe yesterday in page 5955
5 whether you had any city under your control and you responded in the
6 negative. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You indicated in your evidence in chief that your headquarters
9 were in the village of Nikustak which I believe is indicated with number 4
10 in this map. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, I see that.
12 Q. Was your brigade present and operating in this village, Mr. Bushi?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also indicated with number 5 that the headquarters of the 1st
15 Battalion included Nagustak village and Vistica, and I believe that you
16 indicated that with number 5. Was your brigade present and operating in
17 this area in Nagustak and Vistica?
18 A. Yes, Vistica.
19 Q. You then indicated -- you drew a circle indicating the operational
20 area of your brigade which, if I'm not mistaken, ran from Vistica,
21 Nagustak, Bara, and Zara [phoen]. Is that correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Was your brigade operating in this area?
24 A. Yes, it operated in this area.
25 Q. Thanks.
1 MS. REGUE: We can remove, actually, this photo and if we could
2 have, please --
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Apostolski.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if my colleague
5 could, as far as these villages that she mentioned are concerned, clarify
6 whether they're villages or towns, because her previous question was
7 whether they had under their control a town, a city, so I think that she
8 should clarify with this witness for which inhabited area her question is
9 about, whether a village or a town.
10 JUDGE PARKER: That can be a lovely factual question,
11 Mr. Apostolski, and divide a city from a town, and a town from a village.
12 But we'll see how far Ms. Regue is able to explore that. Thank you.
13 MS. REGUE:
14 Q. Mr. Bushi, how would you define these villages or towns that you
15 mentioned, villages or towns?
16 A. They are villages.
17 Q. Thanks.
18 MS. REGUE: If we could have please MFI 1D229, page 7.
19 If we could ... I believe this is not the right page. It should
20 be page 7. If you -- of the document. If you could go two more pages.
21 Yeah, this is the page. And if we could scroll down, please, and zoom in
22 the last paragraph, according to ...
23 Q. Mr. Bushi, Defence counsel read to you an extract of this
24 document, in particular this last paragraph which says that: "According to
25 the available but as yet unconfirmed information, the 114th Brigade is
1 said to have received the order to close the existing gap north of Skopje
2 between Radusa and Tanusevci. This would, therefore, make possible
3 fighting in the whole area of the 111th [Realtime transcript read in error
4 "11th"], 113th and 114th."
5 You testified in 5648 that was a pending order depending on the
6 successful signing of the Ohrid Agreement. I'd like to ask you, was the
7 111th Brigade operational in August 2001?
8 A. No, it wasn't operational at any point in time. From the
9 beginning and up to the end of the war it wasn't operational; it was in a
10 state of readiness.
11 Q. Upon which conditions, if you have knowledge about that, the 111th
12 Brigade would have become operational?
13 A. Only in case the Ohrid Agreement was not signed. In that case,
14 it would have started its operations in its area.
15 Q. Thanks.
16 MS. REGUE: Can we have please 65 ter 1D761, page number 3. And
17 just for the transcript in page 59, line 23, it is 11th and it should read
19 Q. Mr. Bushi, do you recall that my learned colleagues read to you
20 some extracts from different statements?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If we look at --
23 MS. REGUE: Actually, I think that the Macedonian should be the
24 page before this one. Only the Macedonian -- and scroll down. Thanks.
25 Q. We see in paragraph 4 that this document which actually is the
1 witness's statement of Xhezair Shaqiri. It reads that: "I came to the
2 area of Ljuboten, Sunday, 12th August." Now in paragraph 5, and I believe
3 that we should move to the next page in the Macedonian version. The first
4 line of paragraph 5 reads: "It was very difficult to withdraw at that
5 moment without any victims."
6 If we go two lines below it says: "I then order the commanders to
7 begin withdrawal."
8 Then if we could go to the next page, next page only in English,
9 paragraph 6. The first line reads: "There are no facts that NLA were
10 present in Ljuboten. The fact is that Ljube Boskoski was there."
11 I'd like you to listen to my question carefully, Mr. Bushi. Would
12 you agree that in this statement Mr. Xhezair Shaqiri and the rest of the
13 soldiers never reach Ljuboten on the 12th of August? I'm just asking to
14 you comment on what this document reads.
15 A. What Xhezair Shaqiri said in his statement means that there was no
16 order issued by me as brigade commander to enter Ljuboten and that this
17 did not happen.
18 Q. I'm just asking you, did you read, did you see in this extract
19 that Xhezair Shaqiri or any member of the NLA ever reach Ljuboten on the
20 12th of August. I'm not talking about your orders. I'm just talking
21 about fact whether any NLA member enter Ljuboten that day.
22 A. No, they didn't reach at all. They didn't set out and they did
23 not reach the village because they couldn't go.
24 Q. Okay. Did you read also, did you see in this document whether
25 there was any indication that NLA soldiers were present in Ljuboten on the
1 12th or even prior to the 12th?
2 A. No, I didn't see that.
3 MS. REGUE: Could we please have 65 ter 1D507, also page 4.
4 Q. We see that the last line of paragraph 8 - this is Suad Saliu's
5 statement - reads: "We were trying to get closer to Ljuboten but we were
6 prevented by Macedonian direct fire."
7 Just looking at this extract, Mr. Bushi, would you agree that this
8 person states that they never reached Ljuboten on the 12th of August,
10 A. Yes, this is what it says.
11 MS. REGUE: Could we please go to 65 ter 1D94. And page 4, excuse
13 Q. In paragraph 17, -- this is the witness's statement of
14 Islam Zendeli. In paragraph 17 we can read in the first line: "We walked
15 through the woods towards Ljuboten. Two lines below it says: "The
16 Macedonian forces notice us and they started to shell at us."
17 Paragraph 18 it reads: "At some stage after two or three hours or
18 maybe a bit more, we got an order that we should withdraw and that's what
19 we did."
20 Paragraph 19, the last line, I believe that we should go to the
21 next page in the Macedonian version. Paragraph 19, the last line reads:
22 "As far as I know, there were no members of the NLA in the village when
23 it was attacked."
24 Also, from what you listen, Mr. Bushi, did Islam Zendeli or any
25 other members of the NLA ever reach Ljuboten on the 12th of August, 2001?
1 A. No, they didn't. And they did not set out.
2 Q. Would you agree that in this statement there is no indication at
3 that there was no NLA presence on the 12th or prior to the 12th, 2001
5 A. It is true that there is no indication of NLA presence there on
6 the 12th of August, 2001.
7 MS. REGUE: If we could go to Exhibit P215.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Simply for clarification purposes, Your Honour, was
10 counsel asking about the entire statement or was she asking simply about
11 the one sentence that was read, because in fact the statement suggests, or
12 seems to suggest otherwise, Your Honour; namely, that there were members
13 of the NLA around or in the surroundings of the village of Ljuboten on the
14 12th of August.
15 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, my question was about the village itself
16 not about the surroundings of the village.
17 JUDGE PARKER: That's as I understood it, yes. Thank you.
18 MS. REGUE: If we could go to Exhibit P215. This is the witness's
19 statement of protected Witness M-092 and, sorry, I didn't locate the page.
20 It should be paragraph 33, which is in page 8; I apologise. The next page
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour, thanks for that.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Just ensuring that it isn't displayed on any public
1 MS. REGUE: My fault. Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 MS. REGUE: It should be the next page in the Albanian.
4 Q. Paragraph 33, the last five -- excuse me, three lines read: "As I
5 was told, Xhezair Shaqiri on the Sunday afternoon, was with the soldiers
6 above Pop Cesma. When the NLA soldiers were wounded, he ordered them to
7 withdraw to Matejce because he was informed that the Ohrid Agreement was
9 Would you agree from this extract that any NLA soldier ever reach
10 Ljuboten village on the 12th of August, 2001?
11 A. No, it doesn't say.
12 MS. REGUE: We can remove the witness's statement from the screen.
13 And just to wrap up --
14 Q. Mr. Bushi, from all the statements that you saw, despite some
15 contradictions, would you agree that they have one thing in common is that
16 none of these statements indicate that NLA ever reach Ljuboten village on
17 the 12th of August, 2001?
18 A. Yes, I agree.
19 Q. In pages 5766 and 5767, you were asked by my learned colleague
20 about the representation of minorities in the parliament and also in the
21 government and you agree on the percentage put forward by my colleague,
22 but you testified that it was a matter of equal representation in the
23 Macedonian institutions.
24 If we could please go to the Ohrid Agreement, which is Exhibit P84
25 P34 and start with page 9, please.
1 Yeah, if we could scroll down, please.
2 Q. I'm going to read to you what it says, the last paragraph of page
3 9. "Taking into account the recommendations of the already established
4 government commission, the parties will take concrete action to increase
5 the representation of members of communities not in the majority in
6 Macedonia in public administration, the military, and public enterprises
7 as well as to improve their access to public financing for business
9 Mr. Bushi, do you remember that you were also shown Exhibit 1D119,
10 that is in page 5819, where it was actually Ministry of Interior report
11 dating 24th of April, 2001, about a meeting held in order to discuss the
12 training of some 500 newly recruited police officers. Do you recall being
13 shown this document by my learned colleague?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And my learned colleague also put to that you actually the
16 Macedonian state had started back in April to increase the number of
17 ethnic Albanians in public employment and he show you this document. Do
18 you recall that?
19 A. The lawyer said so, but this was not accurate because that started
20 after the Ohrid Agreement.
21 MS. REGUE: If we could please turn to the last page of the Ohrid
22 Agreement, please. Yeah, we are there.
23 Q. Item 5.2 reads: "The parties commit themselves to ensuring that
24 the police services will by 2004 generally reflect the composition and
25 distribution of the population of Macedonia. As initial steps toward this
1 end, the parties commit to ensure that 500 new police officers from
2 communities not in the majority in the population of Macedonia will be
3 hired and trained by July 2002, and that these officers will be deployed
4 to the areas where such communities live."
5 Does the Ohrid Agreement foresees the implementation of measures
6 to increase the participation of minorities within the public institutions
7 of Macedonia, including the police force?
8 A. Yes, it foresees that.
9 Q. Thanks. Also, in pages 5912 to 5913 you were asked by my learned
10 colleague that the constitution guaranteed the cohabitation of Macedonian
11 people of different ethnicities and you were read the preamble.
12 Do you recall that, Mr. Bushi?
13 A. Yes, it was preamble number 7, if I remember right.
14 Q. Yes, you were actually read the preamble, and then you were read
15 Article number 7, and you actually testified that they were changed after
16 the Ohrid Agreement.
17 MS. REGUE: If we could go to pages 3 of the Ohrid Agreement that
18 we have now on the screen, please, page number 3.
19 I think, yeah, if we could scroll down, please. And also in the
20 Macedonian. I believe that it should be the next page in the Macedonian
21 version. My apologies. Yes.
22 Q. Can you see -- can you see, Mr. Bushi, in item number 9 of the
23 Ohrid Agreement it says: "Annexes. The following annexes constitute
24 integral parts of this Framework Agreement, and we see, (a),
25 constitutional amendments; (b), legislative modifications. And then if we
1 go a bit down in the document we see Annex A. My apologies?
2 A. I would like to see it in Macedonian. It's not before me.
3 MS. REGUE: In Macedonian it should be ERN N000-9982. If you
4 could go down.
5 Q. Do you see in the item number 9 annexes and then: "The following
6 annexes constitute integral parts of this Framework Agreement, and we see,
7 (a), constitutional amendments; (b), legislative modifications." Do you
8 see that, Mr. Bushi, now?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then, I believe, in the Macedonian version we have to move to
11 the next page. It says: "Annex (a), constitutional amendments," and then
12 the preamble and there is a new drafting of the preamble. And then if we
13 could change to the next page in English.
14 Do you also see, Mr. Bushi, that the Article 7, the Article 7 that
15 was read to you was also modified in the Ohrid Agreement?
16 In the Macedonian version, it is in the bottom part of the screen.
17 A. Yes, I see that.
18 Q. Thanks.
19 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I'm just wondering if it is a convenient
20 time because I'm going move to another issue.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. In the circumstances, it is necessary
22 that we again adjourn for the day to resume tomorrow at 9.00.
23 Could the Chamber indicate for counsel who may be planning their
24 movements that on the Monday week, I think it is the 16th of October, it
25 may be the 15th, whatever is the Monday, the programme had indicated we
1 would be sitting in the morning at 9.00. We will in fact be sitting in
2 the afternoon at 2.15 for any counsel who may be travelling.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of
5 October, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.