1 Thursday, 18 October 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. If I could remind you of the
7 affirmation which still applies.
8 Mr. Apostolski.
9 WITNESS: FRANZ-JOSEF HUTSCH [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski: [Continued].
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
13 Q. Good morning, Witness Hutsch.
14 Can we continue?
15 A. Yes, thank you.
16 Q. You recall that yesterday we ended when I showed you a photograph?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. For which you claimed it was a vehicle of the Zastava type, while
19 I claimed that this was a vehicle of the Golf type. Do you recall this?
20 A. No.
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
23 Q. Witness, do you remember this photograph? Do you remember having
24 been shown this photograph yesterday and that this was the vehicle that
25 you saw in the courtyard of Elmaz Jusufi on the 14th of August, 2001?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you testified that this was a vehicle of the type Zastava. Do
3 you recall this?
4 A. No.
5 Q. This was on yesterday's transcript, the unofficial transcript, on
6 the last page, page 91 of yesterday's transcript, where you say:
7 [In English] "At the moment all, I can say is that -- is that it
8 was a Golf.
9 "Can you claim that this is a vehicle of the Zastava brand? Is
10 that correct?"
11 [Interpretation] And your answer was "Yes."
12 Do you recall this? This is line 13 and 14 of yesterday's
13 transcript, of the official page 6424. Do you recall that yesterday you
14 confirmed that this was a vehicle of the Zastava type?
15 A. Where -- where did you ask me if it was a Zastava? Where is that
16 there on the transcript?
17 Q. I put it to that you this is what your answer was as in
18 yesterday's transcript. Once again, I will repeat, this is 19 -- 13th
19 line on the 91st page, when I showed you this photograph which is also
20 evidence 1D2, and I asked you: [In English] "This is a vehicle of the
21 Zastava brand. Is that correct?"
22 [Interpretation] And then you answered in the affirmative, and you
23 said "Yes."
24 Do you recall this?
25 A. What you are showing to me now, as to whether that is a Zastava,
1 what I'm reading here, I said, "No, that is true." But you never asked me
2 whether there was a Zastava there, that it was insinuated.
3 You seem to be getting new directions from someone.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
5 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I would ask the witness not to make
6 comments about counsel. I would be grateful.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I see no reason to make any comment at the moment.
8 Carry on, Mr. Apostolski.
9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, I would like to say to you when -- when the witness Elmaz
11 Jusufi was shown this evidence, P12, he responded that: "This photograph
12 shows the courtyard, the entrance courtyard -- gate to the courtyard, and
13 the vehicle Golf II which was registered in my name."
14 Can you agree with me that this is a vehicle of the Golf type?
15 A. I would say it is very likely. I'm not a expert.
16 Q. Can you agree that the witness spoke the truth about his own
18 A. I have no reason to doubt that.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness now please be
21 shown P320, page 2. One page further down. The English version is yet
22 another page further down.
23 Q. Do you see on the screen before you? Do you see the notes you
24 have made for the 14th?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you see where it is written: [In English] "[Previous
2 translation continues] ... reportedly put petrol on the car, Zastava, and
3 set fire to it."
4 [Interpretation] Do you see this on the screen?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is this your official note?
7 A. Yes, that is a note.
8 Q. And you have noted that in question was a vehicle of the Zastava
10 A. No. You're taking this out of context without discussing the
11 details with me.
12 Q. I would like to ask you: Did you note down that the vehicle in
13 question was a Zastava?
14 A. I made myself a note as to whether it was a Zastava because the
15 person I was talking to talked about his car but didn't mention the model,
16 and I don't have any great idea about cars. I'm not have interested in
17 cars, and I just made a note here and I see -- you can see it is in
18 brackets. The things that are in brackets are things that have to be
20 Q. Why is a Zastava put down then?
21 A. Because I made a note about it here as to whether it was a
22 Zastava, but I was not sure and did not know whether it was a Zastava. I
23 think we discussed this yesterday. You asked me yesterday whether I could
24 recognise a Golf I to VI, and I said "no."
25 Q. You wish then to say, because this was put in parenthesis, that
1 this would not be correct. This would not be correct. Is that what you
2 want to say?
3 A. This is a working note, and we discussed yesterday that none of
4 these interviews, none of the information from third parties had been
6 Q. But you saw this vehicle with your own eyes. Is this correct?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. And then you wrote down "Zastava." Is this correct?
9 A. I wrote it to help me remember it.
10 Q. Please answer the question.
11 A. I just answered your question.
12 Q. So the answer is "yes."
13 A. I wrote "Zastava" there. Yes, that's my writing.
14 Q. Is it correct that your testimony before this Court is based on
15 your notes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Does this mean that the other information from your notes are also
19 A. I'm trying to explain to you, these are notes to serve to help my
20 memory; and, at the very start, I tried to explain to you that at the end
21 of each day we went and wrote down what we had observed that day, to try
22 to verify things.
23 I explained to Mr. Mettraux that the whole Ljuboten issue, problem
24 did not give rise to any further need for investigation because a lot of
25 issues would have to have been verified and properly investigated in order
1 to report on them neutrally and objectively, and that's what you're doing
3 Q. Witness, our case is that you were never in Ljuboten on the 12th
4 and 14th of August, 2001. Is this correct?
5 A. I'll have to quote Saint Augustine once again.
6 Q. You don't have to quote him now. Just answer the question.
7 A. The answer is that that is wrong.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer. I will now continue.
9 On Saturday, the 11th of August, you were in Ljubanci. Is this
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In Ljubanci, you went with your white Jeep, Land Rover. Is this
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Your interpreter was with you, a Macedonian. Is this correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You went by the road from Radisani towards Ljubanci.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us whether there was a check-point of the Macedonian
20 security forces before the village of Ljubanci on the 11th of August,
22 A. Could you tell me from your conversations with others what you
23 mean by "check-point"?
24 Q. By this, I mean a place where control is conducted by the security
25 forces of vehicles and persons which enter the village. There are
1 sandbags, trenches.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Very well. The army of the Republic of Macedonia had a control
4 centre at the school at the village of Ljubanci, is this correct, the army
5 of the Republic of Macedonia?
6 A. What -- what do you mean by "control centre"?
7 Q. This is what you have stated. You have called it a control point
8 in -- command post. Command post, this is what you said in your notes.
9 Do you agree that you have said that the ARM had a command centre in
10 village of Ljubanci?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Very well. Then you agree with me that this is correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. A logistics centre of the army of the Republic of Macedonia in the
15 village of Ljubanci was in the children's rest house. Is this correct?
16 A. As of unconfirmed information, yes.
17 Q. Are you now testifying before this Court that the logistics centre
18 of the ARM was at the children's rest house. Is this correct? "Yes" or
19 "no," please?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. You arrived in Ljubanci in 9.00 a.m. Is this correct?
22 A. If you say so. I'd have to verify that.
23 Q. When you entered the village of Ljubanci on the 11th of August,
24 2001, can you tell us where you parked your Jeep?
25 A. At the entrance to the village. When you enter, it would be on
1 the right side in a street, on a street that leads to the road that goes
2 to Ljuboten on the right.
3 Q. Very well. Afterwards, you moved on foot through the village. Is
4 this correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You arrived to the school where the command point -- post of the
7 army of the Republic of Macedonia was located?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you describe to me the school where the command post was
10 located, the number of floors, whether it was one building, two buildings,
11 three buildings, whether there was a fence, whether there was a courtyard?
12 A. It was a school courtyard. If I remember rightly, it had a yellow
13 wall with a rust-colour iron fence, I would say. On the left was the main
14 building, which had several storeys. It was in a L-shape.
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
16 65 ter 2D401.
17 Q. Do you recognise this photograph?
18 A. That is probably the school, yes.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we seek to tender
20 this document into evidence because the witness confirmed that this was
21 the school in the village of Ljubanci where the -- where the centre was
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: Just as a matter of relevance, can we ask whether this
25 photograph depicts the school today or as it was in 2001.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] This is not the school in
2 Ljubanci at all.
3 MR. SAXON: Well, then, I would object to it's being tendered into
4 evidence, Your Honour. There's no relevance then to this case.
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] The relevance pertains to the
6 credibility of the witness.
7 JUDGE PARKER: You have shown the witness a photograph. He said
8 it was "probably," I think, was his word, the school, and now you say that
9 it is not the school.
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I showed a
11 photograph to the witness, and I asked him what he sees on this photograph
12 and whether he recognises it, and he responded that this is perhaps the
13 school --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Probably the school.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Well, the record, for what it's worth,
17 Mr. Apostolski, shows that on your account the witness has identified a
18 photograph as being probably of the school he's describing, which you say
19 is not the school.
20 Now, how do we see the photograph itself as relevant? The record
21 shows that he was shown a photograph. He says it is probably the school.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in line with the
23 previous questioning, I was asking him about the school in the village of
24 Ljubanci where the witness even previously was describing the school in
25 this village of Ljubanci; therefore, in question here is that particular
1 school. My question was about that particular school.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Well, at the moment, we could go as far as marking
3 it for identification, Mr. Apostolski, in case there's going to be some
4 evidence about it, but I don't see that we can take it any further than
6 It will be marked for identification.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D72, marked for identification, Your
9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Witness, you mentioned that on Sunday, 12th of August, 2001,
11 between 7.15 and 8.15 [as interpreted], you arrived at the control
12 check-point in Radisani. Is this correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You said that you didn't know that there was a bus terminal over
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And from there, you were observing what is going on in the village
18 of Ljuboten at 8.00 in the morning on the 12th of August, 2001.
19 A. From the bus terminal?
20 Q. No, from the place where the check-point in Radisani was located.
21 A. If you could tell me again what you define as being
22 a "check-point."
23 Q. You said that on Sunday, 12th of August, between 7.15 and 7.30 [as
24 interpreted], you arrived at the check-point in Radisani. Is this
1 A. I want to avoid a misunderstanding.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... according to your
3 understanding, this would a qualify as a control -- check-point?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And from this check-point, you observed what is going on in the
6 village of Ljuboten at 8.00 in the morning on the 12th of August, 2001.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can you please tell me what was your observation point?
9 A. To my best -- the best of my knowledge, it was in a photograph and
10 also in a spot on a map that I marked out.
11 Q. Yes, but can you tell me how far this location was from the
12 check-point, of the check-point Radisani?
13 A. I cannot give you any precise answer to that.
14 Q. Was this on the road towards Ljubanci?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Was this on the road towards Skopje?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Which road did you follow after the check-point in Radisani?
19 A. In the direction of Ljubanci.
20 Q. I just asked you that. I asked you a while ago whether from the
21 check-point Radisani, in the direction towards Ljubanci, whether this was
22 the location of your initial observation point, and you answered "no."
23 Can you please tell me what is correct then?
24 A. You asked me whether my observation point was on the road to
25 Ljubanci, and that was not the case; under 39:54.
1 Q. I'm asking you whether your observation point was on the road.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Can you please tell me where it was?
4 A. I marked it clearly in the photograph and also on the map, as far
5 as I could identify it.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
7 evidence P307 -- Exhibit P307, please.
8 Q. Do you see the photograph in front of you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this the location that you used for your -- as an observation
11 point? Does this photograph that is shown in front of you give the same
12 view as from your observation point?
13 A. As far as the first part of the question is concerned, mine was
14 slightly further back; and the second part of the question, yes, the reply
15 is yes.
16 Q. Can you please describe and tell us how many metres further back
17 was your observation point?
18 A. Looking at this photograph, I cannot tell you, at least not
20 Q. Can you please tell me in metres.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Describe what was there in the immediate neighbourhood, whether
23 there was a forest or anything else?
24 A. There was a row of trees. I'm not a biologist. It could have
25 been a apple tree, but I'm really not quite sure about that.
1 Q. Was there a plowed land around?
2 A. Plowed land is as a field, is that what you mean?
3 Q. Was there a field that was cultivated that would have some types
4 of crops?
5 A. What are "crops"?
6 Q. So any type of agricultural products or wheat that is being seed
7 placed in the land. So was this an agricultural land?
8 A. Yes. It was a land cultivated by farmers around, but I cannot
9 tell you what type of fields they were; and, secondly, I can tell you
10 what -- which kind of plant was cultivated there, and I cannot give you
11 the exact distance between that and the tree.
12 Q. During your testimony, you said that this hill in front of you,
13 number 631, was a obstacle; and, in order to observe better, then you
14 moved to a second observation point. Is this correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. On this photograph, can you please mark with an "X" the location
17 where you moved, where the second observation point was? Can you indicate
18 this with a arrow, please, in which direction would that be.
19 A. It's already been marked with the arrow number "1," but I would
20 like to point out this was just the very rough location, not exact
21 location; and, certainly, it wouldn't describe exactly in metres where our
22 location was.
23 Q. Can you please mark with an "X" your second observation point, the
24 location of it?
25 A. So you want me to mark it precisely?
1 Q. As precise as you can be.
2 A. Having said that this is just a very rough location. [Marks]
3 Q. Yes, yes. Thank you. Can you please tell me how did you arrive
4 from the first observation point to the second observation point?
5 A. Via land that was being used by farmers --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Paths, paths.
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Did you go on foot?
9 A. We went by vehicle.
10 Q. Can you please tell me, can you draw this path that you were
11 following on this photograph?
12 A. I don't think I'm in a position to do that.
13 Q. Were you moving along a asphalt road to this particular location?
14 A. No.
15 Q. So from the position "1" to the position number "2," you were
16 moving exclusively along a dirt road. Is this correct?
17 A. I've already stated, it was a path that was being used by farmers.
18 JUDGE PARKER: So that the transcript is not confusing,
19 Mr. Apostolski, he moved from position "1" to a position marked with an
20 "X," not position "2." "2" is a different location.
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, that is
22 correct. I used the number "2" because he was talking about a couple of
23 observation points. So, we are describing position or observation point
24 "2," which is marked with an "X" on the photograph.
25 Q. Can you please confirm that when you were moving towards the
1 position marked with an "X," you were moving along a dirt road or a path?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you were not walking on foot. Is this correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would like to
6 tender this photograph with this additional "X" as -- into evidence.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D73, Your Honours.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Witness, you claim that there was a dirt path or track between
12 these two observation points. Is this what you testify before this Court?
13 A. I stated that there were paths which were being used by farmers.
14 Q. Can you please answer only with "yes" or "no." Is it correct
15 that, from your first observation point to the second observation point
16 that you marked with an "X" on the photograph, there was a dirt road? Can
17 you please answer this question with "yes" or "no"?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Very well. Thank you. And with your vehicle, you managed to go
20 from the first to the second observation point in a period of 15 minutes.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you. You said that, as of September 2001, you
23 have been working at the German embassy. Is this correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Your superior was Mr. Peter Matthiesen.
1 A. I'm not sure whether I am able to talk about this in open session.
2 JUDGE PARKER: No restrictions have been placed on that, so you
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Did you discuss with him and did you exchange information with him
7 regarding the security situation in the Republic of Macedonia?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know that there were a couple of German soldiers who were
10 sent to observe the events on the 10th and 11th of August in the villages
11 of Ljuboten and Ljubanci?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you aware of the fact that they did not manage to enter either
14 the first or the second village? They did not manage to enter the village
15 of Ljuboten on the 10th and the 11th of August.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the reason for this were the police check-points which
18 surrounded the village of Ljuboten.
19 A. As far as this detail is concerned, we would have to talk about it
20 in closed session.
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't see any
22 reasons why we should move to a private session and discuss this issue.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Carry on.
24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Matthiesen this situation regarding
1 Ljuboten, the fact that the German soldiers were not able to enter the
3 A. I didn't talk about it with Mr. Matthiesen but with the person
5 Q. And did you talk about anything in relation to Ljuboten with
6 Mr. Matthiesen?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So the German soldiers were not able to enter Ljuboten on Friday
9 and Saturday before the action because of the police check-points, and you
10 managed to do so during the action on the 12th of August to walk to the
11 village of Ljuboten and to have a chat with Mr. Johan Tarculovski and
12 Goran Stojkov who, later on, most kindly, have seen you off?
13 A. The reasons as to why the German soldiers -- you are saying,
14 you're implying that we're talking about soldiers in a military vehicle
15 and in uniform. So as far as the soldiers are concerned, this is slightly
16 different in the report that they wrote, but I cannot talk about it any
17 further in open session.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Why do you say that, Mr. Hutsch?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because staff, as well as the
20 circumstances, involve security interests of the Federal Republic of
22 JUDGE PARKER: But they have not placed any such restriction on
23 you giving evidence relevant to this case, you see. You're trying to
24 impose a condition which the German government has not imposed.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the case is this: The
1 information concerned my time during -- concerned my time at the German
2 embassy and the information that I obtained while I was there, and we
3 noted yesterday that one of the people concerned had refused to give
4 testimony to this Tribunal. I would have to look into the circumstances
5 closely to which I was subjected during my time as an aide to the military
7 JUDGE PARKER: You're being asked, Mr. Hutsch, about events in
8 August when you were not an attache.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question is being put to me as
10 to why these two soldiers could not get into Ljuboten. I know the
11 statement made by the soldiers and I know their report, which I heard
12 about in September or October, and then I was a member of the embassy;
13 otherwise, I could only speculate which might not be keeping in the truth
14 and not answer the question.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 6443-6446 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know several people called
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
16 Q. This is Samedin Xhezairi?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He was your liaison with the NLA. Is this correct?
19 A. No. What do you mean by "my liaison with the NLA"?
20 Q. Was he your connection, your liaison with the NLA?
21 A. I don't understand your question.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
23 Exhibit 2D54.
24 Q. Can you see the photograph on the screen in front of you?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Do you recognise the person marked with the number "1"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is it correct that the person in question is Samedin Xhezairi,
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you receive information from him about the NLA?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever receive information from this person?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know the person marked with "5"?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Can you tell us who this person is?
13 A. That's Ali Ahmeti.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you.
15 Can you tell us that the person, Samedin Xhezairi, had links with
16 Al Qaeda, with the terrorist organisation Al Qaeda?
17 A. That was the result of research that I carried out in 2004, and
18 was the subject of a program on ZDF, the second German television station,
19 in November 2004, about which I was criticised by Mr. Mettraux.
20 Q. Did this person have connections with the terrorist
21 organisation -- group Al Qaeda?
22 A. As a result of my research, I would say yes.
23 Q. Very well. Do you not know whether Ali Ahmeti, Gezim Ostreni
24 maintained connection with Al Qaeda through this person?
25 A. I would have to speculate to answer your question.
1 Q. Therefore, you cannot give me a answer to this question.
2 A. I think I could give you more information about the period when I
3 was on the staff of the military attache, but we would have to return to
4 closed session to do that.
5 Q. No, thank you. This was my only question and you answered.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
7 photograph 65 ter 2D397.
8 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?
9 A. If I remember rightly, this is at the edge of Ljubanci, and the
10 street on the right goes towards Ljuboten and the street on the left,
11 where the red car is standing, is probably the road to -- from the rest
12 house in Ljuboten.
13 Q. Very well.
14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I seek to -- to mark this
15 photograph for identification.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D74, marked for identification, Your
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Witness, the case of the Defence is that you have never met
21 Mr. Tarculovski, neither in Tetovo nor in Ljuboten. You could not have
22 seen him in Tetovo because in 2001 Tarculovski was never in Tetovo,
23 neither privately nor on official business.
24 When there was official travel with Ohrid, together with the
25 family of President Trajkovski, due to security reason it was forbidden to
1 go along the highway Skopje-Tetovo-Gostivar-Kicevo-Ohrid, and this was
2 done by helicopter, or by Bitola-Prilep-Ohrid.
3 In the front line, Johan was only in the Kumanovo area, as the
4 security of the president, of President Trajkovski, only on one occasion
5 and for only several hours. Do you agree with this?
6 A. You would be forcing me to draw a conclusion that I would not like
7 to draw.
8 Q. Is it correct that you have never seen Mr. Tarculovski neither in
9 Tetovo nor in Ljuboten. This is the case of the Defence. Is this
11 A. No.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.
16 Is that probably a convenient time, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Probably, it would make more sense to take the first
18 break now.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. We will resume then at ten minutes to 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
23 MR. SAXON:
24 Q. Mr. Hutsch, you were asked during your cross-examination about a
25 lawsuit that you were engaged with in Germany with respect to an article
1 that had been written by a man, I believe, named Mr. Rub. Is that
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness 65 ter 1D370, please.
5 Q. Help us, Mr. Hutsch. Can you clarify for us why this article was
6 printed in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung?
7 A. The district court and the higher district court in Hamburg gave
8 two separate decisions stipulating that the article by Mr. Rub was based
9 on insufficient research; and, in order not to drag out proceedings for
10 another three years with damages, the presiding judge of the district
11 court convinced both parties involved to reach a compromise in the matter.
12 This article was one element of the compromise achieved, and it
13 was designed to rehabilitate me and to show that the claims of Colleague
14 Rub were not properly researched, both in my case and in the reporting on
15 the so-called massacre in Racak.
16 Q. Can I just ask you one more thing. When I use the term
17 "compromise" here, you're referring to agreement between the parties?
18 A. Yes, I am.
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be
20 admitted, please.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
22 MR. METTRAUX: I believe it is Exhibit 1D245, Your Honour.
23 MR. SAXON: I checked, and I did not see that. I'm very sorry.
24 Q. You were also asked earlier in your cross-examination -- actually,
25 this was back in June at page 2853 and beyond in the transcript. My
1 colleague Mr. Mettraux asked if any other -- well, he asked you some
2 question about the interview that you had done with Ratko Mladic back in
3 late 1995. My colleague asked you if any other journalist had interviewed
4 Ratko Mladic after his indictment or if you knew of any other journalist.
5 I'd like to play a video for you, Mr. Hutsch.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this is a video-clip from Greek TV MEGA,
7 made in the city of Pale, Republika Srpska, on the 4th of March, 1996, if
8 we can watch this, please.
9 [Videotape played]
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. Mr. Hutsch, did you recognise the gentleman with grey hair and
12 dressed in camouflage colour shown in the video requesting questions?
13 A. Yes. There is no doubt about it, that was Ratko Mladic.
14 Q. So, if Ratko Mladic was indicted in July of 2005 [sic] and this
15 interview occurred in March of 2006 [sic], at least this journalist asking
16 questions here managed to reach and interview Mr. Mladic after he was
17 indicted. Would that be fair?
18 A. Yes. It was actually no problem until December 1996 to get a
19 interview with Ratko Mladic.
20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this video-clip,
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
23 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, simply to query the relevance of this.
24 We haven't seen the evidence of the date of the interview. We'll take
25 Mr. Saxon' word for it, but the question, in this matter, was whether the
1 witness in this case had had that interview.
2 If Mr. Saxon now has found evidence that there was a interview
3 after the indictment, the Defence would stand corrected on this, and we
4 will take Mr. Saxon word as to the date.
5 MR. SAXON: Shall I respond, Your Honour?
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, yes.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, when Mr. Mettraux was cross-examining
8 Mr. Hutsch in June about whether he had interviewed Mr. Mladic or not, one
9 of the questions which he put to Mr. Hutsch, in fact more than once, was:
10 Do you know of any other journalist who managed to interview Ratko Mladic
11 after he was indicted? This was clearly insinuating that this was not
12 possible to do, and that is the relevance of this clarification on
14 JUDGE PARKER: Could I mention first that, before it is lost from
15 the screen, dates are shown, at lines 14 and 15 of page 28, as "2005" and
16 "2006." I think they should be "1995" and "1996," respectfully.
17 There can be no question about the relevance of your
18 re-examination on this topic and the answers that you have received. What
19 is the actual television record of the interview going to achieve? The
20 transcript discloses that there was a television interview in this state
21 which now accepted with the man in question.
22 MR. SAXON: Point taken, Your Honour. Very well. I will withdraw
23 my request to tender this video.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 MR. SAXON:
1 Q. I'd like to move on to another.
2 MR. SAXON: And, perhaps, before I move on to, simply to clarify
3 the record as well, the Office of the Prosecutor received this video from
4 the English news service ITN, from their archives of video-clips or from
5 videos, and it was ITN which informed us of the date of the interview,
6 March the 4th, 1996, in terms of their records.
7 Q. Mr. Hutsch, at page 6161 of the transcript, my colleague
8 Mr. Mettraux suggested that: "But for a few additions or exaggerations,
9 you took the information contained in your reporter's notes from 12 August
10 2001 [sic] almost verbatim from the report of Human Rights Watch that was
11 published subsequently about the events in Ljuboten."
12 And, later, on page 6169, my colleague suggested to you that you
13 fabricated the information in your notes based on the report of Human
14 Rights Watch.
15 And, finally, on page 6171, my colleague suggested that: "All you
16 did was lift information from the Human Rights Watch report, except for
17 the odd few little changes which you inserted in it."
18 Do you remember this discussion?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, what is Exhibit
21 P320. I apologise. I should have said reporter's notes from "14 August,"
22 not "12 August."
23 Q. You see, this is the first page of your notes from the 14th of
24 August, Mr. Hutsch, and it shows the first person you spoke to in Ljuboten
25 was Mr. Elmaz Jusufi. Do you see that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And you were speaking to him or he was giving you information
3 about the death of his son Rami. Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. SAXON: Can we go to the next page, please, in both versions,
6 and, perhaps, if we could focus on the top ten lines or so of text,
7 please. No, we need to move up. I need to look at the top of the page.
8 There we are. Thank you very much.
9 Q. You see, Mr. Hutsch, the third entry there says: "MUP then
10 reportedly poured petrol on the car (Zastava), and set fire to it."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. So that is the information that you noted down about the burning
14 of the car. Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. SAXON: Could I ask the court officer's assistance please.
17 Can we now see Exhibit P352. This is the report published by Human Rights
18 Watch. It was drafted by Mr. Peter Bouckaert.
19 Can we turn, please, to page 7 in the English version, and -- what
20 has ERN U000-0105 in the Macedonian version.
21 I'm sorry. In the English version, it -- can we turn the page,
23 MR. METTRAUX: If we can assist, Your Honour, we believe this
24 would be U000-0106.
25 MR. SAXON: Actually, no, I think I'm looking for what I see in
1 front of me right now; though, thank you very much.
2 Q. You see, at the top of this page, Mr. Hutsch, Mr. Bouckaert is
3 describing information that he received from Mr. Elmaz Jusufi. Do you see
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And there are several paragraphs where he appears to quote
7 Mr. Jusufi. Do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you please direct your attention to the third quoted
10 paragraph. It begins with the phrase: "My car."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that sentence says this: "My car was parked in the front
14 yard, right next to the gate. They poured gasoline on it and set it on
15 fire. I heard the police say, 'Pour the gasoline.'"
16 Do you see what I've read to you?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Would it be fair to say that there are details of information
19 provided by Elmaz Jusufi to Human Rights Watch, their representative,
20 which are included in the Human Rights Watch report about Ljuboten that
21 are not in your notes of the 14th of August?
22 A. Yes. And if I may add, that such a direct quote for me, as a
23 reporter, was worth its weight in gold, because it makes the story much
24 more lively.
25 Q. In other words, are you saying that if you had received such a
1 direct lively quote, you would have noted it down?
2 A. Of course.
3 Q. On page 6172 of the transcript, my colleague mentioned the ages of
4 certain persons that are reflected in your reporter's notes of the 14th of
5 August, and he asked you the following: "Isn't it correct, Mr. Hutsch,
6 that the only persons whose age you mentioned in your notes are those
7 which are mentioned in the Human Rights Watch report?"
8 And you responded: "No," that you recorded the ages of persons
9 who were interesting for you at the beginning of a investigation.
10 Do you recall that exchange?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Mr. Hutsch, let's just suppose for a moment, please. Let's
13 suppose that someone did what Mr. Mettraux suggested that you did.
14 Suppose someone lifted information from the Human Rights Watch report in
15 order to create so-called reporter notes about interviews from persons
16 from Ljuboten.
17 Let's just imagine that for a moment, and let's suppose that the
18 same person, as part of his or her lifting, if I can use that expression,
19 of information from the Human Rights Watch also lifted information
20 regarding ages of persons interviewed and placed the information about
21 ages in their so-called reporter's notes. Let just suppose that scenario
22 for a moment.
23 Mr. Hutsch, logically, in that situation, would we expect to find
24 that the ages of the persons mentioned in the supposedly fabricated
25 reporter's notes are the same as the ages mentioned in the Human Rights
1 Watch report?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. SAXON: Can we continue, please, with the Exhibit P352, the
4 Human Rights Watch that is before us, and can we go to what is, I believe,
5 page 9 in the English version and page U000-U107 in the Macedonian
7 Perhaps, if I could ask Ms. Guduric's assistance, if we can zoom
8 in on the last two paragraphs, please, in the English.
9 Well, maybe we can -- I can't quite read the paragraph because of
10 the margin. Is there any way that the second-to-last paragraph can be
11 shown slightly smaller?
12 Thank you.
13 Q. The second-to-the last paragraph reflects information received
14 from Aziz Bajrami, and you see a line beginning, Mr. Hutsch: "Aziz
15 Bajrami and his sons."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then the third sentence of that paragraph, we see this
19 sentence: "The police officers then ordered Aziz Bajrami and another
20 elderly man, 68-year-old Muharem Bajrami, to leave the scene."
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. SAXON: Can we turn to the next page, please.
24 Q. Do you see the paragraph, Mr. Hutsch, beginning with: "Two of the
1 Do you see that paragraph?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Take a look, please, at the second sentence in that paragraph. It
4 says this: "The two bodies were identified by villagers as Sulejman
5 Bajrami, age 21, and Muharem Ramadani," which would have been really the
6 person mentioned on the previous page, "aged 68."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SAXON: Can we return now, please, to what is Exhibit P320,
10 the notes -- Mr. Hutsch's reporter's notes of the 14th of August. And if
11 we can turn, please, to what is the third page in the English version,
12 and can we zoom in a bit on the top of that.
13 Thank you very much.
14 Q. The first line that you wrote at the top of that page, it
15 says: "Together with Muharem Bajrami (65)."
16 Do you see that, Mr. Hutsch?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that number "65," was that a indication of the gentleman's
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So your notes, then, with respect to this gentleman, provide a
22 different age than the Human Rights Watch report.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'd like to move on to a different topic, Mr. Hutsch. Just a
25 brief question or two about how you reported your stories.
1 At page 6871 of the transcript, my colleague Mr. Mettraux asked
2 you whether to have an article published in your newspaper in Hamburg on
3 the next day, you would need to send the article by 8.00 the previous
4 evening, and you replied: "In general, yes."
5 Do you remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were there exceptions to the general 8.00 p.m. rule?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you explain, please, what kinds of circumstances would cause
11 A. For example, when I was held up, then we got an extended deadline.
12 Sometimes, I had to write several articles at once. For example, about
13 one story I needed to write explanatory stores or I had to write a
14 comment; then, the so-called boss, who was in charge, he then would tell
15 me in which order I should send the articles, so that you could attach the
16 pages; and then the editor or the deputy editor would -- he would then
17 revise it.
18 Q. Just so that the record is clear --
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
20 MR. METTRAUX: I'm sorry to intervene, Your Honour. But so that
21 the record reflects accurately what was asked, Mr. Saxon has cited
22 correctly, I believe, one part of the transcript.
23 However, at page 2837 and 2838, the question was asked in the
24 following term: "And what would the latest time so that it could be
25 published in the next day issue?" The answer Mr. Hutsch was, and I quote:
1 "The most latest time was 8.00 in the evening.
2 MR. SAXON: That's true. That was from a earlier exchange between
3 Mr. Hutsch and Mr. Mettraux from back in June.
4 Q. You mentioned, Mr. Hutsch, you said: "For example, when I was held
5 up, then we got an extended deadline."
6 Just so the record is clear, what do you mean by "when I was held
7 up"? What do you mean by that?
8 A. That would be the situation, for example, when I was held up by
9 checks, by controls, by cars breaking down, and, if I was then not in a
10 position by a mobile telephone, to then send off my text.
11 It happened on varies occasions, for example, on the road between
12 Skopje and Tetovo where there was no reception for the mobile phone.
13 Q. So, when you use the phrase "held up," you mean or one definition
14 of held up is when you were delayed.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'd like to discuss with you, Mr. Hutsch, a bit, the issue of
17 machine-guns on armoured personnel carries.
18 On Wednesday, between pages 6290 and 6303, there was a fairly long
19 discussion between Mr. Mettraux and yourself about machine-guns and
20 whether machine-guns were mounted on APCs used by the Ministry of Interior
21 during the crisis in 2001.
22 Do you recall that exchange?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And, at pages 6294 to 6295, my colleague showed you the statement
25 of a Defence witness, Ms. Nikoletka Mitanova, and the following -- one of
1 the sentences in that statement said: "After the crisis ended in November
2 2002, machine-guns were mounted on some of them," referring to APCs. Do
3 you remember that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. Hutsch, you had a military career before you were a
6 journalist, a war correspondent. From a military perspective, would it be
7 logical to mount machine guns on APCs after a conflict ends?
8 A. No, that doesn't make any sense at all.
9 MR. SAXON: Can we please show what was marked for identification
10 as Exhibit 1D239, please.
11 Your Honour, these are the photos that Mr. Hutsch provided to the
12 Chamber, I believe it was two days ago. I'm not 100 percent sure.
13 Can we look at the next photograph, please.
14 Q. You'll recall, Mr. Hutsch, this was one of the photographs that
15 you provided to the Chamber a couple of days ago, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And can you just briefly describe what are we seeing in this
19 A. This photo was taken in March/early April in Tetovo and -- no,
20 that's not correct. In the western area of the barracks exactly opposite
21 of the football stadium.
22 Q. Mr. Hutsch, I appreciate that information, but can you please just
23 tell me what do we see in this photograph?
24 A. That is an armoured personnel carrier BTR, which is firing towards
25 the left, I think with a 14.5-millimetre machine-gun.
1 Q. All right. Thank you for that.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, can we please show a photograph from
3 Prosecution 65 ter number 202. This comes from a range N004-5235 to 5250,
4 and it's page 16 within that range.
5 Can we -- well, can we move backward one page, please. Okay.
6 Can we move forward two pages, please. Can we move forward again,
7 please. Can we look at perhaps what is N004-5250. That might simplify
9 My apologies, Your Honour. We're looking for a --
10 THE USHER: Do you have a copy?
11 MR. SAXON: Yes, I do. Can I show you, Mr. Usher?
12 THE USHER: Yes, please.
13 MR. SAXON: I need to show you the right photograph. This is the
14 one we are looking for now, and then we look at these that follow it.
15 That is certainly one of the photographs I would like to show.
16 Can we go to the page before this, please.
17 Well, I can work with this photograph here actually, if
18 Ms. Guduric could assist me by focussing on the photograph of the man
19 sitting in a turret with a helmet, please.
20 Thank you very much.
21 Q. For now, let's just look at this photograph, Mr. Hutsch. This
22 comes from Reuters. It's dated the 3rd of May, 2001. The headline is: "A
23 Macedonian policeman sits on top of an APC near Kumanovo."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then, below that, there is a description, a short
2 paragraph: "A Macedonian policeman in full combat gear sits on top of an
3 APC on the road near the town of Kumanovo some 35 kilometres east from the
4 capital Skopje on May the 3rd, 2001."
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you see what appears to be a weapon in front of this
8 Macedonian policeman?
9 A. I think it is a machine-gun, 7.62-millimetres, and a Russian
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 MR. SAXON: Perhaps, if I could ask the usher's assistance again,
13 and if to could pass there to Ms. Guduric.
14 I see Mr. Mettraux.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
16 MR. METTRAUX: Simply, again, for the accuracy of the transcript
17 again, Your Honour will remember that this particular picture, I believe,
18 was admitted, however not the text of it, for obvious reasons, of
20 The other matter which perhaps Mr. Saxon should clarify is whether
21 the suggestion is being made in relation to the first picture that narrow
22 was shown to Mr. Hutsch in this series - that was the picture of a green
23 armoured vehicle - and whether it is the position of the Prosecution that
24 this in fact a military or a police vehicle.
25 Mr. Hutsch has indicated in his statement, and I believe also in
1 his evidence, that the vehicles which he claims to have seen were blue in
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I was not aware that this particular
4 photograph had been admitted. That's the first point.
5 The second point is, I was actually --
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE PARKER: As far as I know, it is not presently an exhibit.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the first photograph that I showed
9 Mr. Hutsch, I believe is in this series of news articles. That's why I
10 was going through it, and I thought I had them pinpointed in series on a
11 series of pages. I was going to show the witness the description of this
12 scene as reflected in the news media.
13 Perhaps I could assist, or Ms. Guduric, if she could take a look
14 for this particular item, please. They're the same photographs, which I
15 thought was on page 16 of this ERN range.
16 [Trial Chamber confers].
17 MR. SAXON: I will finish today, Your Honour. I guarantee that I
18 will finish today, absolutely.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Even if it's midnight, Mr. Saxon?
20 MR. SAXON: I will finish, Your Honour.
21 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
23 MR. METTRAUX: I don't want to mislead Mr. Saxon. We are now
24 checking to make sure this is it indeed the right picture or whether it
25 was another picture from the same series. So we are attempting now to
1 ascertain that fact.
2 MR. SAXON: Thank you, and I'm grateful to the Court Officers for
3 their hard work and patience with me.
4 After I run through this series of photographs, I will simply ask
5 that they be admitted together as one exhibit, if that is possible, Your
7 Q. Mr. Hutsch, please take a look at the photograph at the top of
8 this page here, over the headline, "Armed Macedonian policemen take aim in
10 Do you see that photo?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Have you seen that photo recently?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that the photo that I showed you a few manipulates ago, one of
15 the photos that you provided to the Trial Chamber?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Under the headline, it says: "19 March 2001, Reuters pictures,"
18 and then it says: "An armed Macedonian policeman takes aim with his
19 sniper rifle in Tetovo some 50 kilometres south-west of the capital
20 Skopje, March 19, 2001. Macedonian tanks enter Tetovo on Monday as police
21 machine-gunned and mortared ethnic Albanian guerrilla positions on the
22 sixth day of violence that has fueled fears of a new Balkan war."
23 Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE PARKER: My concern, Mr. Saxon, is whether that caption
1 which you read relates to the photograph above or the one below. I think
2 you may need to turn to the bottom of the preceding page.
3 MR. SAXON: Can we do that, please.
4 I stand corrected, Your Honour. Thank you very much for catching
6 Q. The headline over this paragraph says: "Armed Macedonian
7 policeman shooting from his position in Tetovo."
8 Again, it is dated the 19th of March, 2001, and, again, we see
9 text: "An armed Macedonian policeman aims his sniper rifle as he and the
10 armoured personnel carrier, which he is sheltering behind, fire on ethnic
11 Albanian guerrilla positions in Tetovo," and, again, the same language
12 about: "Macedonian tanks entered Tetovo on Monday as police machine-gunned
13 and mortared ethnic Albanian guerrilla positions."
14 MR. SAXON: Can we now go to the next page, please, just the very
15 next page, and at the top of the page, please.
16 Q. So, again, just for the record, Mr. Hutsch, that photograph, at
17 the very top of N004-5244, that's one of the photographs that you provided
18 to the Chamber?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this particular
21 news item with this photograph from the 19th of March, as well as the
22 previous news item, which I believe was from May.
23 JUDGE PARKER: 3rd of May.
24 Mr. Mettraux.
25 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 We believe that the position should be similar to a previous
2 occasion, where only the pictures have been admitted rather than the text.
3 There's no evidence of the reliability of any of the content of the
4 caption, as I think Mr. Saxon called it, which refer to the particular
5 picture. More importantly, we believe, Your Honour, there is no
6 indication whatsoever of the issue which matters in this particular
7 incident, which is whether or not the vehicle in question was an army
8 vehicle or a police vehicle.
9 The evidence which was put to Mr. Hutsch during his evidence in
10 chief was about the MOI having such vehicle. What the first picture
11 showed, and that's the picture that Mr. Hutsch provided, is that this was
12 a green vehicle in his evidence; and, in his statement, Mr. Hutsch said,
13 "These APCs were in typical blue colour." That's his evidence.
14 So, in the submissions of the Defence, the first picture that
15 Mr. Saxon showed does not assist in any way the Prosecution case. The
16 position of the Defence is that the pictures may provide some assistance
17 to the Chamber, to the extent that it would show the presence of such a
18 vehicle at the time in Tetovo.
19 But we believe that the text has not been shown to be reliable,
20 nor has any of the documents shown in any way that the vehicle in question
21 were police vehicles, Your Honour.
22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, certainly, with respect to the photograph
23 and text from the 3rd of May, we are told that that is a Macedonian
24 policeman sitting on top of an APC. The witness has indicated that there
25 was a machine gun in front of that policeman on top of that APC.
1 Now, the witness may not be able to say that he was there and saw
2 that particular policeman; But, in my mind, Your Honour, this is a matter
3 of what weight to be given to the evidence, not a question of
4 admissibility. Certainly, newspaper reports have been admitted in this
5 trial previously. There's no bar to that, Your Honour.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will receive both photographs and the
8 news captions, they being from a leading news agency; but it receives them
9 subject to the question of the weight to be attached to them, this being
10 clearly a second-hand report.
11 MR. SAXON: If I can -- I'm sorry.
12 THE REGISTRAR: They will be received as exhibit P483, Your
14 MR. SAXON: If I can receive from Ms. Guduric the package of
15 papers that I passed to her, please. Mr. Usher, I may need your
16 assistance in one moment, and perhaps Ms. Guduric could help me find this
17 particular photograph and the caption above it.
18 Yes. Thank you very much. This is it.
19 Actually, could we go to up to the page above it, please, the
20 bottom -- no, the page above it, please. The page before this, I'm sorry,
21 and if you come to the top of this page, please. Yes.
22 Q. Now, at the bottom of this page, we see the following headline: "A
23 Macedonian policeman on a APC near Skopje."
24 It is dated the 12th of August, 2001, and the description says
25 this: "A Macedonian policeman watches from a APC on the road from Skopje
1 to the northern village of Radusa, where five policemen were injured on
2 August 11th, 2001. Macedonia accused ethnic Albanian guerrillas from
3 neighbouring Kosovo of mounting attacks on Saturday, even as ..."
4 MR. SAXON: And if we can go to the next page, please, and if we
5 can see the top.
6 Q. "... even as government and a local guerrilla leader expressed
7 support for a plan meant plenty to avert a new Balkan war."
8 Do you see the photograph there, Mr. Hutsch?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. There appears to be a weapon in front of the man in that turret.
11 Can you tell anything about that weapon?
12 A. I think, again, that it is a machine-gun, 7.62 millimetres,
13 Russian built.
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this particular
15 photograph and the description, and I would note that several witnesses
16 have talked about the fighting in Radusa involving members of the
17 Macedonian police during the weekend of the 10th to 12th of August,
18 including Risto Galevski and Zoran Jovanovski and the involvement of
19 police forces in that fighting.
20 JUDGE PARKER: The photograph and caption will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P484, Your Honours.
22 MR. SAXON: Can we please play for Mr. Hutsch Exhibit P453.
23 Q. This is a video, Mr. Hutsch, from July or August 2001.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there. Well, can we go back, please.
1 Can we focus in. Can we go back, please. Stop. Can we start
2 again, please. I want to focus on the man on top of that APC. Stop.
3 Q. Mr. Hutsch, this is a shot of a blue APC. You see the man in the
4 turret. He has a mask on. Can you see what he has in front of him,
6 A. Yes. As far as I can see, this is a Russian -- or a machine-gun,
7 7.62 millimetre, Russian fabrication.
8 MR. SAXON: Can we go a little bit further, please. Stop there,
10 Q. So, we see a second blue APC. Can you tell what kinds of APCs
11 these are?
12 A. As far as I can see, these are Hermelin tanks.
13 Q. Are you able to see any kind of machine-gun on the Hermelin that
14 is on the left side of this photograph?
15 A. Where the commander is sitting, there seems to be a weapon; but
16 whether it is a Kalashnikov or not, or an AK-47, or submachine-gun, I
17 can't really see.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. SAXON: Can we go a little bit forward, please. Can we stop
20 there, please.
21 Q. Mr. Hutsch, what is that on top of this APC?
22 A. This is, once again, a 7.62 machine gun, Russian fabrication, on
23 what appears to be mounted on a Hermelin.
24 Q. You used word "mounted," and the term "mount" and "mounts" and
25 "mounted" came up several times during cross-examination.
1 Take a look at this system of mounting, please. Is this the
2 normal way that a machine-gun would be mounted on top of a APC?
3 A. No, not at all. On these Hermelins, there is a device for German
4 machine-guns of the type number 3, and this machine-gun is not compatible
5 with the Russian type -- this device is not compatible with the Russian
6 type. So they have adapted it to put the machine-gun on the opening hole
7 for the commander.
8 Q. Okay. So, when you say they have "adapted it," in other words,
9 this is some kind of a makeshift mount?
10 A. Yes. It is a makeshift way of putting the machine-gun on the
12 Q. I'd like to turn to another topic now, Mr. Hutsch.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
14 MR. METTRAUX: Before we do, simply for the record, Mr. Saxon has,
15 I would suggest, given evidence to the effect that this video was from
16 July and August of 2005. I will record for the record - or 2001, I
17 apologise - for the record, that this particular video was shown to a
18 witness in this particular case and that the witness in question was being
19 asked whether he was able to date the incident or the events in question,
20 and the witness has been unable to do so.
21 As far as the Defence can say at this stage, there is no evidence
22 on the record of the date of this particular video, or at least of the
23 events to which it relates.
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, when I spoke about July and August 2001,
25 I was referring to the Prosecution's best knowledge as to when this --
1 this video-clip was made, Your Honour. There's no intention to provide
3 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber, in the end, will be concerned only
4 with what is established by evidence, Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: Can we go back to that last clip, please.
6 Q. Mr. Hutsch, when, if ever, did you see machine-guns like this
7 mounted like this on APCs in Macedonia?
8 A. I would say, well, certainly to the end of 2001, and I would think
9 in 2002 also.
10 Q. When would you have first seen machine-guns like this mounted like
11 this in 2001? Can you name, roughly, a month?
12 A. It was probably in March or April, when the first Hermelins were
13 delivered, so I think April, end of April, May, around that time.
14 Q. Okay. I'd like to move on --
15 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, I see Mr. Mettraux.
16 MR. METTRAUX: I'm sorry to butt in again, Your Honour. Simply to
17 clarify whether Mr. Saxon was asking about APCs or Hermelin of the police
18 or of the army or both.
19 MR. SAXON: Point taken. I will clarify that.
20 Q. Mr. Hutsch, when, if ever, did you see machine-guns like this
21 mounted like this on APCs operated by the Macedonian police?
22 A. At that period of time I just referred to, the end of
23 April/beginning of May.
24 Q. Okay. I'd like to move on to a different topic now, Mr. Hutsch.
25 I'd like to talk to you a little bit about the view that you had
1 from your first observation point that was near the community of Radisani,
2 where you were on the 10th of August, 2001, I believe, in the afternoon,
3 and in the early morning of the 12th of August.
4 On Monday, at page 6199 of the transcript, my colleague suggested
5 to you that you could not see Ljuboten from Radisani because there is a
6 hill in the way.
7 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is Exhibit 2D73,
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
10 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, perhaps, for the accuracy of the
11 record, I believe this was in Radisani from the position from which
12 Mr. Hutsch had claimed to make the observation which did.
13 MR. SAXON: All right.
14 I'm wondering if we can enlarge this. Thank you very much.
15 Q. Just briefly, Mr. Hutsch, can you explain what you could see or
16 what we can see from your first observation point? What are we looking at
17 here, starting, perhaps, from the left moving towards the right?
18 A. We are looking at, on the left side, we're looking at the hill 631
19 that covers the western part of Ljuboten; and, on the right side, you can
20 see the eastern part of Ljuboten with the mosque, and in the background is
21 the mountain that you can see.
22 Q. All right. So --
23 MR. SAXON: I see my colleague on his feet again.
24 MR. METTRAUX: I apologise again, Your Honour, but we understand
25 that the position from which the picture was taken is different from the
1 position which Mr. Hutsch claims to have been and which he referred to as
2 observation point number 1.
3 He was asked questions, I think, by the Prosecutor and by both
4 Defence in relation to that matter, and also it is the evidence of
5 Mr. Hutsch himself that he could not see what was going on in the village,
6 which explained why he moved to the other position.
7 MR. SAXON: Well, I believe the evidence of Mr. Hutsch was that he
8 could not see what was going on in part of the village, Your Honour. As
9 he has just explained, he could see the eastern part of the village.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Continue, please, Mr. Saxon, and see if there's any
11 further clarity.
12 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Just for clarity, if I understood your evidence, from your first
14 observation point, you could not see the western part of the village of
15 Ljuboten. Is that right?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. Because your view of the western part of the village of Ljuboten
18 was blocked by hill 631?
19 A. Yes, that is right.
20 Q. But you were able to see the eastern part of the village. Is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Today, you described how you drove along farmers' paths to get
24 from observation point 1 to observation point 2. Do you recall that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And, in your testimony today, you used the word "paths" in the
2 plural sense.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Just taking a look at this photograph, please, were you able to go
5 in a straight line from observation point 1 to observation point 2, across
6 the fields?
7 A. No. That was impossible, and that's what I replied truthfully.
8 Q. Okay. Can you explain then, roughly, how -- how you travelled.
9 If it wasn't in a straight line, just roughly, what did you have to do to
10 make it across to where observation point 2 is?
11 A. We had to take several paths going to the right and to the left to
12 get to the point, which I have marked there more or less with the "X" and
13 with the arrow number "1," approximately.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you for that.
15 I'd like to turn to a different topic now briefly.
16 At page 6255 of the transcript, you explained to Mr. Mettraux that
17 the information that you recorded at Ljuboten was combined in
18 reporter's -- in your reporter's notebook and on maps. Do you recall
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, what is Exhibit P314.
22 I was actually looking for the final image, which looks like this of
23 Mr. Hutsch's sketches drawn onto a -- a map. I believe that's it.
24 Q. Mr. Hutsch, just very briefly, you testified, previously, this
25 is -- this is a map which you made markings on, I believe, after 10.28 in
1 the morning, according to your testimony, on Sunday, the 12th of August.
2 MR. SAXON: Maybe if we could zoom in a little bit on the centre of
3 the map where Mr. Hutsch's black writing is.
4 Q. You see, Mr. Hutsch, here there are a number of bits of data,
5 including, we see, different numbers. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] I see 0607, 0838, I see 0744, I
8 see 1048, I see 1220, and I see 1238. Can you tell us what these numbers
9 refers to, please?
10 A. They are the -- they are the times that I wrote down when I made
11 my observations; for example, the shelling that I observed or the noises I
12 heard of the explosions, the explosions of firing.
13 Q. And, on the right-hand side, we see some red arrows going from the
14 right side of the map towards the centre. What do those red arrows
15 indicate, please?
16 A. These are reconnaissance troops of the NLA, which from 1400 hours,
17 according to unconfirmed reservations, advanced in that direction.
18 Q. So, in order to view the totality of the information that you
19 recorded on the 12th of August, you would have to look at this map and
20 your reporter's notebooks?
21 A. Yes, I would. In particular, because you can also see on this
22 sketch on the right side, on the right of the arrows, you can see the
23 position of a NLA company marked. Above the upper arrow, you can see a
24 mortar position of the NLA, too.
25 Q. Okay. Mr. Hutsch, at pages 6246 to 6248 of the transcript,
1 Mr. Mettraux was discussing with you how you did or did not get
2 information from the Ministry of Interior back in August of 2001.
3 My colleague discussed with you the statement of a woman named at
4 that time Tatiana Najdovska-Trajkovska.
5 MR. SAXON: If we can show the witness, please, actually we don't
6 need to show this exhibit. If I can just say that the record indicates,
7 the transcript, that, in one part of Ms. Najdovska-Trajkovska's statement,
8 she said that she was not contacted by any journalists on the 10, 11, 12
9 of August, and she also said in her statement: "The practice of the
10 Ministry of Interior was not to publish information on ongoing operations,
11 information was released after the completion of operations."
12 Do you remember this exchange?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 MR. SAXON: Can we play for Mr. Hutsch what is Exhibit P401,
15 please, which is a video from early June 2001.
16 [Videotape played].
17 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please.
18 Q. Did you read what Mr. Boskoski was telling the media there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Well, would you agree that then, at least during this -- during
21 this particular operation, Minister Boskoski himself gave information
22 about the operation to the media?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. SAXON: Can we show what is Exhibit P276, please. This is a
25 video taken in September of 2001. It is -- the Ministry of the Interior
1 was planning on returning its units to areas previously under the control
2 of the NLA.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please.
5 Q. Mr. Hutsch, did you see the journalists or members of the media
6 sitting around a large room, previous, before we stopped here?
7 A. I wasn't really playing attention in detail.
8 MR. SAXON: Can we start -- can we start again, please.
9 [Videotape played]
10 MR. SAXON: Stop there, please.
11 Q. Mr. Hutsch, did you ever attend press conferences at the Ministry
12 of Interior in a room like this?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. SAXON: Can we move forward, please.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. SAXON: Can we stop there, please.
18 Q. Mr. Hutsch, if you have been following this, you'll see that the
19 journalist and now police general Risto Galevski is talking about plans
20 that are going to be implemented. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, that, at least in September 2001,
23 the Ministry of Interior would provide information to the public, to the
24 media, even before operations?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right, Mr. Hutsch, just briefly, can you describe --
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.
3 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I apologise, but this video doesn't
4 take of any operations. I think Mr. Saxon should be quite clear the
5 evidence on this was about the return of the police to the villages. I
6 think Mr. Galevski testified to that after the signing of the Ohrid
7 Agreement and pursuant to the accord which had been reached on that
9 MR. SAXON: I deeply apologise if I used the term operation too
10 broadly, Your Honours. I didn't mean it in the sense of a combat
11 operation. I simply meant it in terms of deploying police units to
12 particular places that had been affected by the armed conflict.
13 May I proceed?
14 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please.
15 MR. SAXON:
16 Q. Briefly, Mr. Hutsch, in August 2001, how would you and your
17 colleagues in the media get information from the Ministry of Interior?
18 A. By using the telephone numbers we knew, by calling, and asking
19 questions, to get information. Journalists like Carsten Hoffman, who
20 worked for DPA news agency and was accredited in Skopje, was sent faxes
21 with dates of press conferences. It was a very normal manner of
22 communication for correspondents who were accredited to that country.
23 Q. Okay. I'd like you to turn your mind, please, to the question of
24 the crowd of civilians that you saw near the village of Radisani, or in
25 the village of Radisani, on the 12th of August, 2001.
1 At pages 6206 to 6210 -- by the way, I believe you used the term
2 "some people." Mr. Mettraux used the term "crowd, "immense crowd,"
3 "great crowd," things like that.
4 At pages 6206 to 6210 of the transcript, and pages 6270 to 6275,
5 Mr. Mettraux and you discussed whether there was a crowd of civilians at
6 the entrance to Radisani. I'm wondering, please -- and Mr. Mettraux asked
7 some questions about a document that originated from the OSCE.
8 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, what is Exhibit
9 1D246, and if we can go to page 21 of this document, which bears the ERN
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE PARKER: This exhibit is perhaps only part of the Rule 65
13 ter exhibit. It does not have 21 pages.
14 MR. SAXON: I see. Perhaps, Mr. Mettraux can direct us to the
15 particular area where he focussed on.
16 MR. METTRAUX: I believe we can assist by giving the exhibit
17 number of the document in question, which is currently being verified.
18 I believe that the original Prosecution document was Rule 65 ter
19 216, and the document became, or part of the document in any case became,
20 Exhibit 1D246. It was originally Rule 65 ter 1D925 of the Defence.
21 MR. SAXON: Okay. We've found it. I'm very grateful to
22 Ms. Guduric, and if we could focus on row 23 of the bottom half of this
24 Q. Mr. Hutsch, I would like to you lock at the language here in the
25 two columns on the right, please. In the column, the second column from
1 the right, it sayings: "At the entrance of Radisani near the bridge, it
2 gives a number, "a crowd is gathered with iron pipes in their hands
3 waiting for the refugees."
4 Do you see that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And then in the next -- the next section on the far right, it
7 says: "Team will meet with the refugees, together with the ICRC, on their
8 way along the river. CMC was informed about the crowd at the bridge. The
9 latter body promised to send a police team on that particular spot."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you agree with me there that, in those two excerpts, it
13 uses -- we just see the word "crowd." We don't see any estimate of
14 numbers of people?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. It doesn't say "large crowd," does it?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It doesn't say "great crowd," does it?
19 A. In doesn't.
20 Q. "Huge crowd," do you see that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. How about "immense crowd," do you see that?
23 A. No. Might I add here a word, because I wasn't able to express
24 myself earlier.
25 It was at 11.50 [as interpreted] that the report went into the
1 OSCE, and --
2 Q. Just one moment, please, Mr. Hutsch. Maybe there was a mistake in
3 translation. It says 12.50 here.
4 A. Yes. 12.50, in Skopje, the report was received. So that would
5 mean that the event itself would have take place two hours earlier. That
6 what is I was trying to explain to Mr. Mettraux, but my English was not
7 good enough to do that, obviously.
8 The crowd of people had already dissipated at that time at 12.50,
9 in particular because it says that at that time the police and the OSCE
10 and the crisis management centre were trying to deal with the crisis.
11 Q. Okay. I'd like to move on to another topic, Mr. Hutsch.
12 You were asked several questions yesterday by my learned colleague
13 Mr. Apostolski about the man named Goran Stojkov and whether you saw
14 Mr. Stojkov in the village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August.
15 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, what is 65 ter number
16 2D00-676, which is Mr. Hutsch's statement from 2005, and if we could move
17 to page 18 in the English version and page 20 in the Macedonian version.
18 Can we please move back one page, please, and we could focus on
19 paragraphs 131 and 132. We need to go back another page in the English
20 version, I see, and if we can focus on paragraphs 131 and 132, please.
21 Thank you very much.
22 Q. Mr. Hutsch, yesterday, at page 6418 of the transcript, you
23 explained to my colleague Mr. Mettraux that: "The truth is in paragraph
25 Do you recall that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Paragraph 131 starts with: "At this place, I have also seen a
3 police officer whom I knew from before. I knew him under the name Goran.
4 I knew him as a body-guard of Ljubco Georgievski, the former prime
5 minister. I have seen him in this function several times."
6 Do you see this?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then you explain later, in that paragraph, how you learned the
9 family name, "Stojkov," of this person. Do you see that?
10 A. Exactly.
11 Q. Can you explain briefly to the Judges how you learned this
12 gentleman's last name, "Stojkov," later on?
13 A. What happened was that my interpreter and I went to Skopje, and
14 there we met groups of paramilitaries who belonged to the Lions, or
15 obviously belonged to the Lions. They walked around the streets and one
16 of them -- then I was told was Goran Stojkov, and this is where I came
17 across the name Stojkov.
18 Q. And did you recognise this person?
19 A. I then recognised him as the one from Ljuboten.
20 Q. And when you saw this person and you recognised him as the person
21 you saw in Ljuboten, and you were told this person's name was Goran
22 Stojkov, in paragraph 131, it says, "This was in October 2001." Is that
23 your testimony?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. SAXON: Would that be a convenient time, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE PARKER: We resume at 1.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Hutsch, at pages 6314 to 6323 of the transcript, there was a
7 fairly long discussion between my colleague Mr. Mettraux and yourself
8 about the bodies that you saw in the road in Ljuboten on the afternoon of
9 the 12th of August, and whether you saw two bodies together or two bodies
10 separate the. Do you recall that?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, what is Exhibit P319.
13 Q. While that is coming up, yesterday you were told by my learned
14 colleague that another Prosecution witness had said that the second body
15 found on that road was actually 20 to 30 metres down the road from the
16 first body, a body that you saw - well, in the photograph that we're going
17 to see - it's on the side of the road.
18 Mr. Hutsch, this is a photograph that you annotated during your
19 direct examination. Do you recall that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you see that, on the far right-hand side of the photograph,
22 you drew a arrow pointing down the road. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Tell us, please, what were you trying to show by placing that
25 arrow there?
1 A. What I wanted to explain was that the second body was a little bit
2 further away from the first body.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. I don't think we're talk being 20 to 30 metres, but again my
5 memory might not serve me well.
6 Q. Do you want to try --
7 MR. SAXON: I see Mr. Apostolski is on his feet?
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting
10 my learned colleague, Mr. Saxon. But on page 2764 of the transcript, a
11 detailed answer was provided to this question by the witness, so maybe my
12 learned friend can read the answer out loud.
13 MR. SAXON: I'll do so, if I'm directed to, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: No. We leave the matter to you, but do bear in
15 mind that I do not and the members of the Chamber do not at this moment
16 remember that answer. We will undoubtedly reminded of it and will look at
17 it in due course. There may be something you need to clarify.
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I do not have my hard copy of that
19 section of the transcript with me, but my case manager may be able to
20 assist me.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
22 Mr. Mettraux.
23 MR. METTRAUX: We were about to offer. We have the copy, Your
25 MR. SAXON: I would like to take my colleague's offer, please.
1 MR. METTRAUX: This would be from page 2763 to 2764 of the
2 transcript of the 27th of June of 2007. The question -- I'm sorry, the
3 question and answer relevant to this are from line 2 to 10. It would be
4 the second page provided to Mr. Saxon.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Lines 2 to 10 is suggested.
6 MR. SAXON: That's correct.
7 Q. On the 27th of June, Mr. Hutsch, when you drew this sketch and I
8 asked and I said -- first, you had drawn where you saw the first body,
9 which we see now is lying off the side of the road, and then I asked
10 you: "Could you draw, roughly, where you saw the second body lying on the
12 Then you made some marks and you said: "So the head of this man,"
13 in other words, the second deceased, "was a little bit more there,
14 [Indicates], to the outskirt of the blood." That was your response.
15 Now, let me simply ask you. You've given your response to me when
16 I asked you about the purpose of the arrow. Can you give a approximate
17 distance of between the body that we see here in this photograph and the
18 second body?
19 A. I would say, let's say, five metre, six metres.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. METTRAUX: In that case, Your Honour, we will simply record
22 that we are joining with the objection of our colleagues of the Defence of
23 Mr. Tarculovski. The transcript revealed that the arrow at the time was
24 to indicate that only the head was a bit further from the limit of the
1 MR. SAXON: I don't know what the objection is --
2 JUDGE PARKER: Continue, Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: I will do that.
4 Q. I'd like to talk to you, Mr. Hutsch, about the hotel registry that
5 was shown to you yesterday from the Dal Met Fu hotel it Skopje.
6 During cross-examination yesterday, you suggested that the
7 registry that was shown to you had been altered or falsified, and you
8 mentioned that such things had occurred in Macedonia in the past, and you
9 mentioned a case known as "El Masri."
10 Can you explain to the Chamber, please, briefly, who Mr. El Masri
11 was, what happened to him in Macedonia, and what you know about hotel
12 records in the case of Mr. El Masri?
13 A. Mr. El Masri is a German Lebanese citizen who, between 2002, 2003
14 at the end of the year, was taken to Afghanistan and -- in order to be
15 questioned there by the American intelligence services.
16 In the first two to three weeks, he was in the Hotel Skopski Merak
17 in Skopje, when a investigation committee of the European Union then went
18 to the hotel, they were introduced to a completely new set of staff; but,
19 not only that, also the book, the registry, was presented to them, which
20 no longer contained the name "El Masri," and they were clearly changed.
21 Q. And is this case known as "El Masri" is a case that is currently
22 the subject of a investigation by members of the German parliament?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how do you know about this case, Mr. Hutsch?
25 A. As a -- I was working for the opposition party in this
1 investigation committee as a member and, hence, I had access to these
2 reports, but which have already -- which have also been discussed in a
3 open session in the German parliament.
4 Q. Moving on to another topic, Mr. Hutsch.
5 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is Prosecution 65
6 ter 1030, please.
7 Q. This is a report from the Macedonian police, Mr. Hutsch. It was
8 shown to you yesterday and discussed with you at pages 6262 to 6263 of the
10 As you may recall, it describes a meeting of members of the
11 VRMO-DPMNE Party in Cair on the 12th of August, 2001. It notes there, in
12 the first line, that the meeting ended at 2000 hour; that is, 8.00 in the
14 MR. SAXON: My colleague is on his feet.
15 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would simply indicate that is not
16 what the report says.
17 MR. SAXON: My colleague is -- my colleague is correct. It does
18 not mention the word "Cair." That is correct. I stand corrected, Your
20 MR. METTRAUX: I apologise. This was not the indication that we
21 wish to give to the Chamber. The time which is mentioned on this report
22 does not refer to the timing of the meeting but the working hour of the
23 person who signed this document.
24 MR. SAXON: I stand corrected.
25 Q. Yesterday, you were also shown -- you were shown a statement by
1 Prime Minister Georgievski, which I believe indicated that Mr. Boskoski
2 arrived at this meeting at sometime around 1900 hours. Do you recall
4 A. Yes. If I remember well, then the meeting started at 7.00 p.m.,
5 and the prime minister was not quite sure whether the Minister of the
6 Interior was -- had taken part in the meeting or not.
7 Q. But just to be clear, if such a meeting had taken place in the
8 village of Cair, how long would it take to drive from Cair to the
9 Dal Met Fu restaurant, approximately?
10 A. A minister has special priority that is escorted by the police. I
11 suppose that it would be ten minutes or 15 minutes maximum, in terms of
13 Q. All right. Yesterday, during cross-examination, my colleague
14 Mr. Mettraux played you a couple of intercepts, and you talked about the
15 fact that, on two occasions, Mr. Gezim Ostreni --
16 A. We would have to return to private session.
17 MR. SAXON: Very well.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Private
19 [Private session]
20 [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Trial Chamber]
11 Pages 6491-6492 redacted. Private session.
22 Q. Okay. Mr. Hutsch, I have one more question for you, and I'd like
23 you to answer it simply as briefly as you can, please.
24 My colleagues have alleged that you have fabricated your evidence
25 in this trial and that have you lied to this Tribunal. I'd like you,
1 please, to explain to the Trial Chamber, briefly, why these allegation are
2 true or not true.
3 A. There is no particular reason for me to have invented anything
4 because I was not a participant in the events, and I do not intend to work
5 in Macedonia in the future in order to gain some advantage or to suffer
6 some disadvantage. My focus is now Iraq and Afghanistan, so that I don't
7 really have any professional contacts with the Balkans anymore.
8 What pains me a bit here is that last year my colleague, Huub
9 Jaspers, and another and myself, we won a prize for European journalism,
10 and the year before we got the second price for European investigative
11 journalism. The commission which gave the award investigated our work
12 thoroughly. So, in view of that, I see no reason why I would have
13 invented anything here.
14 It is simply the issue that Ljuboten was not important for me as a
15 journalist. My experience from the massacre in Racak where badly
16 researched publications caused, brought about a war. I feel that the
17 investigations carried out in Ljuboten and how the people died and what
18 happened in detail, to find that out would have needed a lot of resources,
19 staffing resources, finances, et cetera. You can still see the problem in
20 the Racak case, and that was the reason why, in this case, we decided not
21 to continue with our research.
22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions for this
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Hutsch, at various points in your evidence,
1 particularly when cross-examined by Defence counsel, you were asked to
2 identify persons who were with you as you describe certain events, or
3 persons who told you about certain events. On each of those occasions,
4 except one that I recall, you declined to identify the persons.
5 I would like to point out to you, on behalf of the Chamber, that
6 as the Chamber comes to assess your evidence, you will realise that it
7 becomes more difficult for the Chamber to place reliance on it, and to
8 accept it as true, when we are not in a position to know the identity of
9 the persons you say were with you or the identity of the persons you say
10 are the sources of your information.
11 We would like to you take that into your consideration and to
12 indicate whether you are prepared to revise the position that you took of
13 not disclosing the identity of those people.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have contacted
15 several sources and the interpreters at the time who, since the change of
16 government in Macedonia, are afraid for their life.
17 You know that there are protests from time to time in Macedonia,
18 demanding for more freedom of the press, claiming that Macedonia does not
19 reach European standards for freedom of the press; and, in view of this,
20 as a journalist in Germany, where we enjoy a high level of freedom of
21 press and protection of sources, which was recently confirmed by the
22 Constitutional Court in Germany, I would not be able to carry out my
23 duties as a journalist if I were to jeopardise my sources by revealing
25 I am aware of the sources -- I will inform my sources and my
1 companions at the time, and ask them to inform the Tribunal if they're
2 willing to do that and contact you themselves.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Hutsch, you will realise that the Chamber has
4 not in any way sought to compel to you disclose, but you will equally
5 realise that it necessarily puts the acceptance of your evidence at a
6 disadvantage when do you not disclose.
7 So it is with that knowledge that we want to be sure that we leave
8 this position.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
11 You will be pleased to know, Mr. Hutsch, that that concludes your
12 questioning. The Chamber thanks you for your two occasions when you've
13 come to The Hague and for the time that you spent here and for the
14 assistance that you have been able to give, and you may now, of course,
15 leave and go about your ordinary affairs.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you indeed.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE PARKER: It's been pointed out to me that strictly we were
21 in Private Session, and I have asked and will make an order for us to be
22 in public session at the time when you announced the close of your
23 re-examination and the Chamber's words to the witness, so that it will be
24 available on the public record.
25 MR. SAXON: May I make a comment, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON: If the Chamber is so desirable, I don't see a reason
3 why my last question to Mr. Hutsch and his response could also not be
4 available on the public record.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we'll explore that as well.
6 We do need to go into public session now.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 Now, Mr. Saxon, ten minutes remain. There seems little point in
11 moving to another witness at this point.
12 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour. The Prosecution would then
13 intend to continue with the direct examination of Mr. Viktor Bezruchenko
14 starting tomorrow morning, and I have been given strict orders by my case
15 manager to inform the Chamber and the parties that the final Macedonian
16 translation of Exhibit P466, which is the amended expert report of
17 Mr. Bezruchenko, has now been uploaded in e-court and is available to
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
20 Well, if there is no other matter that can be dealt with now, we
21 adjourn for the day, to resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.33 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of
24 October, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.