1 Thursday, 6 December 2007
2 [Closed session]
11 Pages 8538-8623 redacted. Closed session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
14 JUDGE PARKER: We have now concluded the taking of evidence from a
15 witness in closed session.
16 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, with the exception of I think a very
18 small number of outstanding matters, the Prosecution has no further
19 witnesses to call.
20 I have just been reminded, in fact, instructed by my case manager,
21 who has received instructions from Ms. Guduric, however, that I must
22 inform the Trial Chamber that a translation of exhibit P00049.094 has now
23 been uploaded into e-court. And the same goes, Your Honour, for a
24 translation of exhibit P00072. That has now been uploaded into e-court.
25 I was going to say, Your Honour, that the Prosecution has no
1 further witnesses to call, and with the exception of a few matters that I
2 believe are currently pending before the Trial Chamber, that is the
3 Prosecution's case.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon. Most, if not all, of those
5 outstanding evidentiary issues should be dealt with in the course of
6 tomorrow, if not today.
7 Ms. Residovic.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you would allow
9 me, I would want to go back to the question that you said I could put
10 after the examination of the witness. I would like to tender into
11 evidence -- I would like for the document 1D285 marked for identification,
12 which is in tab 42, which is the employment contract of Mr. Zoran
13 Krstevski, I would like to tender this document into evidence, since this
14 is not, as the Prosecutor said, a large document of the interior
15 ministry. This is a true document of the Ministry of Internal Affairs,
16 and after the re-examination, it is clear that this document can be
17 tendered into evidence. Maybe its probative value can be assessed. The
18 Prosecutor showed the document of Branko Bojcevski, the state secretary of
19 the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and then of Blagoja Jakovoski -
20 Jakovoski, I'm sorry - where there was a quotation where allegedly Blagoja
21 Jakovoski as the body-guard of the minister had seen --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the end of the
23 statement before --
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This very fact clearly shows that
25 it is possible for all of these persons, Venko Kalacoski and Zoran
1 Krstevski, were actually employed in the Ministry of Interior Affairs but
2 it is questionable from -- since when, because Venko Kalacoski could not
3 have been state secretary in times when Branko Bojcevski was state
4 secretary, and Branko Bojcevski from the statements shown by the
5 Prosecutor was clearly state secretary until November 2001 when he was
6 replaced by Venko Kalacoski.
7 Therefore, if we take into consideration everything that Gigi or
8 Blagoja Jakovoski testified before this Court concerning the timing, does
9 not at all decrease the probative value of this evidence, which is an
10 official document of the Ministry of Interior which shows that Zoran
11 Krstevski started to work in the Ministry of Interior Affairs on 27th of
12 September, 2001.
13 Therefore, after the re-examination as well, the Defence still
14 considers there are enough elements for this document to be admitted into
15 evidence. And there is no reason why it should only remain marked for
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, in the Prosecution's submission, the
20 indications that were described during re-examination certainly cast a
21 cloud, a large and dark cloud, over the veracity of the information in
22 this contract that has been offered for admission.
23 And therefore, in the Prosecution's submission, the Defence has
24 not demonstrated that it has sufficient probative value for it to be
25 admitted at the time.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE PARKER: The document marked for identification will be
3 received as an exhibit. Clearly, the question of its veracity or whether
4 there was some other arrangement before it came into existence are matters
5 which will need to be considered by the Chamber in due course.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will retain the same
7 number but will become Exhibit 1D285.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any outstanding issue, Mr. Apostolski?
9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 These are not very major issues. For the Exhibit 2D42 we have an
11 official translation and it is updated under -- uploaded in the e-court
12 under 2T42. It's the same with the Exhibit 2D47. It has been uploaded in
13 the e-court under 65 ter 2D423.
14 So instead of 2D, it should stand 423, in line 16.
15 So line 16, it should say 65 ter 2D422.
16 JUDGE PARKER: You want the official translation now included in
17 that exhibit; is that it?
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE PARKER: That can be managed. If we can find the right
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat once again, Your
22 Honours. Maybe it would be easier.
23 JUDGE PARKER: What about 2D422. Does that make you happy?
24 [Microphone not activated].
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] So the -- for the Exhibit 2D42,
1 we have received an official translation from the CLSS, and was uploaded
2 in e-court under number 65 ter 2D422. It is the same with Exhibit 2D47.
3 We received an official translation, and was uploaded in e-court under 65
4 ter 2D423. And we would like to add them to the exhibit.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Those matters will be attended to, Mr. Apostolski.
6 Is there any other further --
7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: -- outstanding matter?
9 Can we revert, then, to the question of the timetabling of the
10 steps that must be taken between this point and the opening of the Defence
12 Is there any further matter that needs to be raised, Mr. Saxon?
13 MR. SAXON: I certainly do not want to be presumptuous and jump
14 the gun. I'm certainly aware of the matters of Rule 65 ter (G), but I
15 assume that is what the Chamber is going to discuss.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
17 MR. SAXON: I may have some additional matters to raise after that.
18 JUDGE PARKER: I see no indication from counsel of anything
19 further than was said the other day.
20 When we heard these submissions the other day, counsel for both
21 Defences stressed that the orthodox celebrations of Christmas and new year
22 in Macedonia were on the 7th and 14th of January, and -- respectively and
23 attention was also drawn to the difficulty of effectively contacting and
24 dealing with potential Defence witnesses over the period between the two
25 different religious celebrations of at least the Christmas festival.
1 It was proposed that some three to four weeks outside the holiday
2 period should be allowed for the disclosures required by Rule 65 ter (G),
3 between that disclosure and the commencement of the Defence evidence.
4 Sorry, allowed until the disclosures were made as required by Rule
5 65 ter (G).
6 The Prosecution was concerned that, in addition to the time sought
7 by the Defence, it should have adequate time for investigation and
8 preparation following the disclosures by the Defence, and that that time
9 should be allowed before Defence evidence commenced to be led.
10 Now, of course, if those things are put together, they seem to
11 take us to the second half of February, and -- no, the second half of
12 February, if those things are all put together, and it is the view of the
13 Chamber that the time allowed between the close of the Prosecution case
14 and the commencement of the Defence case should be as short a period as
15 fairness will allow.
16 Therefore, the Chamber has come to a view that something less
17 attractive perhaps, less relaxed in time than seem to be the hope of
18 counsel, should be ordered, but it does recognise that things must be done
19 that will take time and that there be some inhibition from the holiday
20 period in the capacity to attend to some of those matters and it also
21 recognises that the Prosecution must have some time.
22 In the view of the Chamber, it would order, making these orders
23 pursuant to Rule 65 ter (M) in lieu of the Pre-Trial Judge: Firstly that
24 the Rule 65 ter (G) disclosure, all of this as required by that Rule for
25 both Defences should be completed. That is, filed and served in full
1 compliance with the Rule by noon on Thursday, the 10th of January. That,
2 of course, is over a month from now. It proposes that there should be a
3 pre-Defence conference on Monday, the 28th of January and the commencement
4 of the Defence of Mr. Boskoski should be on Tuesday, the 29th of January.
5 Is there any serious difficulties seen with any of those dates?
6 If not, they will be the dates ordered. We feel that any greater
7 time allowance would be going beyond what fairness really required. We
8 are anxious, as I'm sure everyone is, that we get on with the completion
9 of this case as quickly and efficiently as possible.
10 We would, there being nothing else, therefor plan to adjourn now
11 with a view to the Chamber reassembling for the continuation of the
12 evidence at the end of January on the dates indicated.
13 We would wish all well for the coming respective festive seasons,
14 and we look forward to seeing you refreshed and invigorated for the new
16 Mr. Saxon, are you refreshed or invigorated?
17 MR. SAXON: I'm both, Your Honour. I have just received some more
18 strict instructions, that I make a general request that all transcripts of
19 video-clips that have been shown as part of Prosecution exhibits be
20 admitted. I'm not -- sorry, this was simply a request that was passed to
21 me a few moments ago, and I don't know if I'm expressing it as clearly as
22 I should be.
23 JUDGE PARKER: I hear you enough to say to you we need a written
24 motion, because that will be a very significant number of individual
25 pieces of evidence, particularly some of the video-clips and they will
1 need to be identified precisely not only as to exhibit number but as to
2 the particular time sections of each that were -- you want to have
4 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: So you may have leave to move that motion in
6 writing, and we would ask if there is any objection to any part of it,
7 that that objection by either Defence be made in writing within ten days
8 of being served with the written motion, and we would hope to be able to
9 produce an order in respect of the motion without needing to hear anybody
10 in respect of it.
11 Well, if that's the case, I would --
12 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, very sorry.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Two matters, two perhaps related matters.
15 It would be helpful in terms of the preparation of the Prosecution
16 for the Defence case to know sooner, rather than later, if one or both of
17 the accused intend to testify, because obviously, this requires a great
18 deal of preparation. And related to that is a perhaps a procedural
19 question, and that is whether if one or both of the accused decides to
20 testify, at what point in their respective defence case they would give
21 evidence, because there's certainly an argument to be made that such
22 evidence would have more weight, more value, if it is given at the start
23 of a Defence case rather at the end.
24 And so I simply wanted to raise that first matter and wondering
25 whether the Defence can give any indication about that.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the order we have made would suggest that
2 that need not be answered before the 10th of January. If either Defence
3 counsel is in a position privately to assist Mr. Saxon before then, we
4 would encourage that, but we will not make -- could not make any other
5 order in respect of the matter.
6 We would add, in respect of your second point of concern, that the
7 practice which the Chamber considers extremely desirable, is for the -- an
8 accused to give evidence first, rather than at some other time in the
9 course of his Defence case, because, in that way, the Chamber is able to
10 not be distracted by concerns about passages of evidence being -- by an
11 accused being shaped to conform to evidence given by other Defence
12 witnesses. A problem that can distract from the force and reliance that
13 can be placed on the evidence of an accused.
14 But we leave the matter with those words of advice and
15 encouragement to Defence counsel.
16 MR. SAXON: May I maybe one more point, Your Honour.
17 It is simply this, that the -- in the past, the Prosecution has
18 interviewed one of the accused, Mr. Boskoski. There is a transcript of
19 that interview, and the Prosecution may seek to use portions of that
20 interview during the cross-examination of Defence witnesses. It's a
21 matter I have raised very briefly some days ago with Defence counsel.
22 And the Prosecution realises that particularly because we have a
23 co-accused in this case that there are certain legal issues that might
24 arise during the course of such cross-examination. Therefore, the
25 Prosecution may, before the start of the Defence case file a motion
1 seeking the permission of the Chamber to use the transcript of the prior
2 interview of the accused Boskoski during cross-examination of Defence
4 I simply wanted to alert everyone to that; that's all.
5 JUDGE PARKER: That is a matter we must leave for you, Mr. Saxon.
6 One of the decisions to be delivered shortly by the Chamber will deal with
7 at least issues relevant to that consideration. And there has been a
8 recent decision of the Appeals Chamber that might also be considered by
9 counsel, which has been -- will be mentioned in the decision of this
11 Before somebody thinks of something else, we will adjourn. But I
12 do so, wanting to convey our appreciation to all those in and around the
13 courtroom who have assisted and supported us during the year. We're very
14 grateful and we look forward to your reinvigoration and rest as well and
15 we wish you well during the coming season.
16 We now adjourn.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.30 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of
19 January, 2008