1 Thursday, 31 January 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 Good morning, Ms. Galeva-Petrovska. Would you please stand, and
8 if you would read aloud the affirmation on the card that is shown to you
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
13 WITNESS: SOFIJA GALEVA-PETROVSKA
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your
18 Examination by Ms. Residovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Galeva. With your permission,
20 I will address by just one of your family names. I will use Mrs. Galeva.
21 Is that okay?
22 A. [No verbal response]
23 Q. I will also ask you to speak your answer into the microphone,
24 because just nodding cannot be recorded in the transcript.
25 Did you understand me?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We have already met. You know that I am Edina Residovic, that I
3 appear for Mr. Boskoski, and that I have a colleague in my Defence team,
4 my co-counsel Mr. Mettraux. I am going to ask you, first, to tell the
5 Trial Chamber your first and last names?
6 A. Sofija Galeva.
7 Q. Before I start putting you any questions, I will kindly ask you to
8 listen to another piece of information, or rather, instruction on my part.
9 You understand the language that I speak, and I also understand
10 the language that you speak. However, my question and your answer need to
11 be translated so as to allow the Trial Chamber and my learned friends in
12 the courtroom to understand both my question and your answer.
13 Therefore, I would kindly ask you to wait for my question to be
14 translated and only then start providing your answer. Did you understand
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you please give us your birthday and tell us where you were
18 born Mrs. Galeva?
19 A. On the 20th of September -- I apologise. Should I start
20 immediately or should I wait for everything to be translated into English?
22 Q. You can start answering and then I will wait for your answer to be
23 translated, which means that you don't have to stop after every word. You
24 can provide the full answer and then I will wait for the answer to be
1 A. On the 20th of September, 1970, in the city of Strumica in
3 Q. Can you tell us something about your educational background?
4 A. I have university education at faculty of the bar. I have passed
5 the bar exam, and at the moment I'm enrolled in the post-graduate studies
6 in the cathedral of international law diplomacy.
7 Q. Could you please tell us where you completed secondary education
8 and then where you went to university?
9 A. I graduated from the secondary education in the city of Strumica
10 and then I graduated from the faculty of law there Skopje.
11 Q. Having graduated from the school of law in Skopje, where did you
12 work? Can you tell us, briefly, something about your work history?
13 A. Immediately after I graduated from the faculty of law, I got
14 employment in a private company as a lawyer, and I spent there a brief
15 internal of time; and after that, I used to work as an attorney's
16 apprentice in an attorney's office, again, in the city of Strumica, so
17 that I have the necessary years of experience before I passed the bar
19 Q. When did you pass the bar exam; can you tell us, please?
20 A. I passed the bar exam in 1996, I think it was February 1996.
21 Q. When somebody passes a bar exam in the Republic of Macedonia, what
22 jobs can that person count on?
23 A. The bar exam is a prerequisite for a person to be employed as a
24 judge, as a prosecutor, as an attorney, as a legal representative of
25 companies, et cetera. These are mainly the jobs.
1 Q. Mrs. Galeva, what did you do after passing the bar exam?
2 A. After I have passed the bar exam, I was again employed in a
3 company. I was its legal representative. And, after some time, I also
4 opened my attorney's office. I used to work as an independent attorney.
5 That was somewhere in 1998.
6 Q. How long did you have your own firm and did it come the time when
7 you changed both the place of residence and the place of work?
8 A. In October 1998, I started my office, and I worked there until
9 2002, until I -- my employment in the Ministry of Interior. So I moved
10 from Strumica to Skopje. So for some four years I had my office.
11 Q. When did you joined Ministry of Interior, and when did you start
12 working in Skopje at the Ministry of Interior?
13 A. I remember that the job application procedure started somewhere
14 towards the end of 2001, and I know that the first contacts with the
15 Ministry of Interior were towards the end of December 2001; and after
16 that, it was necessary to go through several months of formal procedure,
17 which pertained to approvals and the securing funds from the Ministry of
18 Finance of the Republic of Macedonia for this job to be opened, which
19 means that the procedure lasted several months.
20 So I received my official employment contract for the Ministry of
21 Interior on the 2nd of April, 2001 [as interpreted].
22 Q. Can you tell us, please, what was your initial position, when you
23 signed the contract with the Ministry of Interior?
24 A. When the job contract with the ministry was signed, no specific
25 job was defined in it. The rules provide that there is, first, a period
1 of apprenticeship, which is the prerequisite to pass the professional exam
2 and that, on the other hand, is the prerequisite to have a specific -- to
3 be assigned to a specific job. So I started as an apprentice.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. On page 4, line 21
5 it says "April 2001," and as far as I could hear, it was "April 2002."
6 Can the witness please confirm that.
7 Q. Did you finally take the permanent job in the ministry in 2001 or
9 A. 2002, 1st of April 2002 was when my job contract was signed. But
10 from December 2001, the procedure of employment had started and I attended
11 regularly - how could I put it? - regularly or from time to time, I was
12 there in the ministry to follow the procedure to see how far the procedure
13 went with regards to the securing the funds and, of course, to establish
14 all contacts with the people that I would be working with, with my
15 superiors at the job where I was to be assigned initially.
16 Q. If I understand you correctly, the allocation of funds and the
17 definition of your final job was completed towards the end of March and
18 then you started going to work regularly every day on the 1st of April.
19 Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell me, when you first started working, what was your job? In
22 what part of the Ministry of Interior did you work?
23 A. As an apprentice, I was deployed at the sector of national bureau
24 of Interpol that is within the police department within the public
25 security bureau within the ministry. So this was my first post in this
2 Q. Just a minute ago you told us, Mrs. Galeva, that you had passed
3 the bar exam which was a condition for the jobs that an expert in law
4 might land.
5 As far as I understand you, you started with an apprentice with
6 the office of the Interpol in Macedonia. Was this -- was it necessary for
7 you to pass any other exams in order to complement your previous
9 A. Yes, of course. And I have mentioned already that the
10 prerequisite was to pass through this period of apprenticeship, then to
11 satisfy the criteria for passing of the professional exam. If the
12 superior officer for whom you're working within the apprenticeship gives
13 an assessment that the person is capable, meets the criteria to pass this
14 professional exam, and is able to further perform the professional tasks
15 and duties independently, then the person is allowed to pass the
16 professional exam.
17 When passing the bar exam, you are meeting the prerequisite to
18 have a formal employment contract for a specific job post for which
19 specific tasks are envisaged within the description.
20 Q. Did you pass the exam, and when was it?
21 A. Yes. I passed the professional exam. That was towards the end of
22 May 2002.
23 Q. And were you given a different title, or were you given a
24 different position after that?
25 A. I remained for some two months in the sector for national bureau
1 of Interpol; and from 1st of June 2002, I was deployed to a new job post.
2 After I have passed this professional exam, I was given a specific job and
3 title. That was state advisor within the cabinet of the minister.
4 Q. Mrs. Galeva, let's go back to that period while you still worked
5 with the Interpol office.
6 Tell me, what kind of tasks did you have in that department and
7 upon whose proposal or request did you perform those tasks?
8 A. While I was in this sector, considering that my status there was
9 one of apprentice, our internal acts of the ministry indicate that during
10 the performance of this apprenticeship, the apprentice must be introduced
11 with many of the posts within that sector, and that under the
12 systematicisation, the organisational structure belonged to that sector.
13 The objective was to have the idea about the sector, what is the sector
14 dealing with.
15 With regards to the specific tasks, I went through several posts.
16 I can speak in general what they were dealing with. That was the process
17 of issuing warrants on persons, then the procedure of examining origin of
18 cars that were imported from abroad. Those were the main tasks by that
19 sector. There were additional ones, of course.
20 Q. Did it ever happen that that you received a specific task that you
21 were supposed to carry out while you were still an apprentice with the
22 office of the Interpol?
23 A. I apologise. Are you referring to a specific task -- tasks
24 related to the Interpol sector or outside of the domain comprised by the
1 Q. You've just described the main tasks of the Interpol: The
2 surveillance of persons, the inspection of vehicles, issuing warrant
3 arrests and following them. What I would like to know is this: Did
4 anybody at any point in time - and if they were, who it was - offered you
5 or told you that you are supposed to do something else?
6 A. Well, since I started working in the Interpol officially from the
7 1st of April - I can't really remember the exact date, but that was
8 towards mid-April - the head of the crime police department, Spasen
9 Sofevski, invited me to his cabinet. We had some interview. He asked me
10 generally whether I was informed that the process of exhumation of persons
11 of -- corpse from Ljuboten was ongoing. He asked me what I had heard
12 about this event, about this case. So we had a conversation around it.
13 Q. When the under-secretary for the crime prevention police asked you
14 this, what did he tell him? Had you heard anything about Ljuboten before
16 A. Yes, of course. I had heard about it; but considering that was an
17 event that took place before I was employed at the Ministry of Interior, I
18 could not have had specific or detailed information about the events. My
19 knowledge was mostly based on the information from the media newspapers.
20 That was it. But I had heard of the event at any rate.
21 Q. You're saying that that interview may have taken place at
22 mid-April, and the exhumation in the village of Ljuboten was taking place
23 around that time.
24 I would like to ask you whether the media, at the time, informed
25 the population about the process of exhumation?
1 A. Yes. On a daily basis, there would be news bulletins on the TV
2 stations, the newspapers wrote about it, but those were superficial. I
3 will use the colloquial term "superficial" information, because they
4 themselves had no specific data about the way in which the procedure was
5 carried out. So they informed, in general, that there was such process,
6 that it was ongoing, what was its forecasted duration but no specific
7 details were presented.
8 Q. In the course of that interview or conversation, did the
9 under-secretary give you a task or an assignment; and from that moment on,
10 did you have any close contact with the information that were -- that was
11 heard with regard to the exhumation in Ljuboten?
12 A. During that conversation, he asked me about my prior work
13 experience. He had already all information about my prior work
14 experience, the jobs I had performed, and he stressed, having in mind that
15 the fact that I had such experience appearing before the courts as an
16 attorney, that it would be good for me to be involved in the procedure,
17 not to participate in the process, but to follow it all the time. That
18 was the time when that procedure of exhumation was carried out, April of
19 2002, and I, of course, accepted this.
20 Q. Mrs. Galeva, before we go back to the assignments that you
21 accepted and that were given to you by the under-secretary of the police,
22 tell me, please, which department of the ministry incorporated the
23 Interpol office where you worked as an apprentice pending the professional
24 exam that you were supposed to pass?
25 A. I mentioned already that was the sector of the national bureau of
1 Interpol within the criminalistic police department, within the public
2 security bureau in the Ministry of Interior. And due to this, I suppose I
3 was invited by the head of the crime police department, and he was the
4 direct superior above the superior in the sector where I had performed my
6 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Galeva, before we go back to the relevant issue,
7 I would kindly ask to you tell us briefly something about your further
8 tasks that you were given in the Ministry of Interior. As a matter of
9 fact, as far as I can remember, you have told me that on the 1st of June,
10 you were appointed the -- a public official in the office of the minister
11 as his associate.
12 A. Yes. On the 1st of June 2002, I received my job contract for the
13 position of state advisor within the cabinet of the minister.
14 Q. Tell me, please, how long did you stay in that position?
15 A. From the 1st of June, 2002, until the 1st of April, 2003.
16 Q. Throughout all that time, did you perform the same tasks in the
17 office of the minister, or did there come a time that you had to interrupt
18 that job and do something else?
19 A. Considering the fact that in September we had general elections,
20 parliamentary elections, on the 1st of November, 2002, a new minister was
21 appointed to the Ministry of Interior; and, of course, he established a
22 new cabinet, and many shifts took place then among the employees. They
23 were transferred from the present to new job positions, and I was among
24 them, but I did not receive a contract immediately.
25 The explanation was that they still hadn't found an adequate
1 person who could perform that job; and for this reason, I was told that I
2 should take my holiday leave and that I would be invited to be informed of
3 what my new job position would be. And since that took quite a lot of
4 time, I was, of course, rather eager to have this issue resolved and
5 whatever happens happens. But I wanted my new contract, and I wanted to
6 know what would be my new job and my new tasks in the future.
7 Q. Can you now tell us briefly whether you were assigned a new
8 position and what tasks you performed later on in the Ministry of
10 A. This lasted sometime until March of 2003. I was then invited by
11 the new director for public security and the then state secretary in the
12 ministry, and I was given my new job contract. So from the 1st of April
13 2003, I was already deployed to a new job that was a senior assistant on
14 legal and personnel affairs within the department of legal, financial, and
15 other affairs within the sector of internal affairs for the city of Skopje
16 within the Ministry of Interior.
17 Q. Did you have any other duties besides the position that you were
18 assigned in March 2003?
19 A. During that time that was my main duty. I was working at that
21 Q. And after?
22 A. After that, I had a new job, but that was in 2005, in March, I
23 believe. I believe it was the 25th of March, 2005, yes. This is when I
24 received a new contract, and I was appointed head of the unit for legal,
25 financial, and other common affairs within the sector for internal
1 affairs, Skopje, within the ministry.
2 Q. Have you stayed there until this day or have you been assigned
3 another job?
4 A. No. I had a new contract afterwards. On the 3rd of July, 2007, I
5 was appointed head of sector for misdemeanours within the ministry.
6 Q. And what is your job at the moment?
7 A. Yes, that's the same one.
8 Q. Thank you. Now let's go back to the part of your testimony where
9 you told us that the under-secretary for the crime prevention police
10 invited you to get involved in the Ljuboten case and to monitor the
11 process of exhumation which was under way.
12 On that occasion, did the under-secretary refer you to some other
13 bodies? Did you know at the time who it was in the Ministry of Interior
14 who was involved -- involved in the issues of exhumation?
15 A. Yes, of course. After the questions on how informed I was about
16 those events, he then informed me, in general, about this event and about
17 the process that was expected. That was actually ongoing, the process of
18 exhumation; and, of course, the proposal came that I would be involved in
19 this work.
20 Q. Very well.
21 A. And so he gave me the information that, initially, the Ministry of
22 Interior was represented by the forensics police, the sector of forensics
23 of the police within the ministry was the only representative of the
24 ministry police. No other bodies were involved. And he suggested that it
25 would be best to have -- for me to have the initial contact with the head
1 of that sector, Miroslav Uslinkovski, since he was the most proper person
2 who could give me the best information about all that.
3 Q. Did there come a time when you contacted the crime technicians and
4 Mr. Uslinkovski?
5 A. Yes, of course. I made efforts to establish contact with
6 Mr. Uslinkovski.
7 Q. What did he tell you at the time; do you remember?
8 A. That was our first meeting actually, the introductory meeting. I
9 just informed him that I was authorised to monitor this process, but he
10 was so busy, because at the moment the exhumation procedure was going on.
11 So, later on, during that time and a bit later on, there were several
12 occasions when we would meet, and he would inform me about some things
13 related to the procedure. He would also give me some materials.
14 Q. Mrs. Galeva, having become an apprentice, having spoken to your
15 immediate superior or other superiors, was there a time when you actually
16 encountered or met up with Mr. -- Minister Boskoski?
17 A. Yes. There was such a meeting.
18 Q. Can you remember when this happened, and what was the reason for
19 you meeting up with him?
20 A. This was around immediately somewhat a short period of time after
21 I met with the head of the crime police, about the middle of the month of
22 May, perhaps the end of the month, when I was again called by the head of
23 the criminal police, and he told me to go to the office of the minister,
24 that he is looking for me in regards to this case, which I did.
25 Q. You said that it was not long after the under-secretary for the
1 crime police tasked you with monitoring the exhumation process. Can you
2 please be more precise in determining the period of time, the month or
3 maybe even something more precise than that? The Trial Chamber would
4 certainly appreciate it.
5 A. I think this was the end of April 2002, the meeting with the
7 Q. Were there any other individuals in the minister's office at the
9 A. Yes. The director of the bureau for public security, Goran
11 Q. Before I move on to my next question, let me ask you this: You
12 have already told us that at the time when you arrived that the
13 under-secretary for the crime prevention police was Mr. Spasen Sofevski.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who at the time was the director of the state security?
16 A. Mr. Nikola Spasovski was the director of state security.
17 Q. Did you known when Mr. Spasovski had taken the position of the
19 A. I cannot recall the exact date, but I believe it was around August
20 2001, end of August 2001, but I'm not sure about this.
21 Q. You mentioned the director of the state security and minister
22 having been present at that meeting. Do you remember whether you were
23 told at the time why you had been asked -- do you remember the
24 conversation with Minister Boskoski and Director Mitevski at the time at
1 A. Yes. I recall that they were present there, those two persons, at
2 the beginning when I came there. Later, and after the Director Mitevski
3 presented me, he was told, among other things, about previous events that
4 the head of the crime police charged me to follow the process of
5 exhumation; and then the minister naturally asked me what I had undertaken
6 in this regard so far, and they agreed what should be undertaken further
7 with the director and what my concrete engagement would be in regards to
8 this whole case.
9 Then the minister proposed to the director that it would be well
10 advised that I focus on this case, that I become fully engaged on this
11 case. After the passing of the professional exam, it would be well
12 advised that my new work position would be in the office of the minister
13 where it was best -- the best position to follow this whole affair.
14 Q. In the course of the conversation in the minister's office, which
15 took place towards the end of April, as you've told us, did anybody
16 mention anything to the effect of the ministry's organs having done
17 anything prior to that?
18 A. Yes. There was talk about this. I was immediately told that the
19 Director Mitevski also worked in a commission charged exclusively for this
20 event. Other members of the commission were also told to me, that they
21 also possess materials which pertain to this case. I was told who else is
22 engaged in this matter, and that there are other working groups,
23 commissions, that were also charged to gather and to prepare certain
25 Q. While you were talking to the minister and the director, did
1 anybody else join you at any point in time, or did the conversation end by
2 only the three of you talking?
3 A. After all of these things were said, the director explained to the
4 minister, informed the minister, that, among the others who were included
5 in this matter, there was a certain Katica Jovanovska, an analyst working
6 in the sector of analysis and research at the ministry, who was charged
7 to gather information to this period, somewhat before and somewhat after
8 the event itself, from the 10th to the 12th of August, 2001, as well
9 naturally the period of the conflict.
10 Then the minister requested that she also be called in the office
11 and that she be present during these talks so they can ask her how far she
12 has gotten on this matter and how much information she was gathered in
13 this area, in view of the task that she was charged with.
14 Q. Did this person join you? Were you introduced to this analyst who
15 had worked on gathering information, as you put it, or compiling
16 information with regard to Ljuboten?
17 A. Yes. She was called immediately. She joined us in the office of
18 the minister. She joined the discussions and informed about her work up
19 until then. I recall that she informed about the fact that she has
20 started preparing, in addition to others, an analyst report, a more
21 comprehensive and complex information exclusively dealing with this event.
22 She was charged to do this and that the preparation of this
23 information was ongoing. She also informed that she has other material,
24 and the minister and the director told her that all of these materials
25 should be accrued in one place and handed over to me.
1 Q. After this conversation in the minister's office, did you have
2 other meetings with this lady, Katica, and did you receive from her any
3 material? If you did, can you remember what kind of material that was?
4 A. Immediately, after the end of this conversation that took place in
5 the office of the minister, I left and went to my office; and after some
6 period of time, during the course of the same day, Katica came to my
7 office with material which she handed over to me.
8 As far as can I recall, this material included a number of analyst
9 information, dealing with almost the whole period of the conflict. There
10 were, of course, information about the Ljuboten event of the 12th of
11 August; then material from Human Rights Watch with the recommendations to
12 the government and accusations. Primarily, this is the material I
13 received from her.
14 Q. When she handed the material over to you, did you have any
15 subsequent contacts with Mrs. Jovanovska?
16 A. Yes, of course, because at this time she was working with an
17 external associate on legal issues at the ministry. He had an office very
18 close to mine, so she passed by here daily, as sometimes she brought in
19 some information, sometimes she asked me the phase of the procedure and
20 where it was at the moment and what was going done in this regard.
21 Q. If I understood you well, you told us that Mrs. Jovanovska had
22 been in charge of compiling complete information about the events in
23 Ljuboten. Did you ever receive this complete information that had been
24 done on all the activities that had been carried out with regard to
25 Ljuboten and surrounding Ljuboten?
1 A. On one occasion she showed me the information, but this was not
2 finalised. This was work in process. This was a text prepared on a
3 computer, but there were a lot of hand-made notes on the text itself, and
4 I recall that she told me the following: "Even if you read this, this is
5 not easy to understand. I can't do it myself even. Wait a while and I
6 will put it all in good order, and we will have all the necessary
7 information that they expect of us." But soon after, she left the
8 ministry and she became a judge.
9 Afterwards, I contacted with the sector where me worked to track
10 down and obtain this information. I recall I spoke with Vasilka, and I
11 can't recall her last name. She was also a person higher up in the sector
12 of analysis and research, and I told her all of this, that it is very
13 important for me to obtain this information, but she simply explained that
14 Katica by leaving and by the usual transfer and exchange that takes place
15 when such changes were made, she had not handed any information over of
16 this kind, nor did anyone employed there know anything about this. So we
17 did not get this information.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I move on to a different
19 topic, Your Honours, I would like to provide the witness, my learned
20 friends, and the Trial Chamber with some documents that I would like to us
21 in my further examination of this witness.
22 Q. Mrs. Galeva, your principle task, how did you understand it? Were
23 you supposed to collect all the information? Were you supposed to analyse
24 it? Were you supposed to write reports? Can you explain the way you
25 understood the task that you had been given?
1 A. My task was to collect the comprehensive material which the
2 Ministry of Interior has, which pertains to the case of Ljuboten, without
3 going into detailed analysis, preparing any kind of reports, strictly
4 collection of material in one place; to prepare a chronology of these
5 events; to put them in one place; and then to hand them over to the
6 directors and to the minister.
7 Q. Tell me, please, did you set up -- or rather, how did you collect,
8 how did you gather these documents that you had received?
9 A. Most often, there were personal contacts with individuals who at
10 that time were, or prior to the event or when I took over this task,
11 persons who were in leading positions who I believed could give me the
12 best answers to the questions on which there were many dilemmas.
13 These were conversations, oral conversations, which I carried out
14 through contacts with these people. I received written material also on
15 my request, of course, because primarily I established these contacts with
16 the people who I thought could help me in this regard.
17 I established a starting point on this, and then we agreed that on
18 all subsequent information or related, we need not meet. Anything new
19 that they would receive on this matter, they would send to me, be it by
20 mail or through other means. The important thing was that I receive this
22 Q. After your initial meeting with Mrs. Jovanovska joined you, when
23 you received the material, and after having been transferred to the office
24 of the minister on the 1st of June, tell me, did you have any other
25 meetings with the minister? Did minister show any interest in what you
1 were doing?
2 A. Yes, of course. Especially once I definitively transferred to the
3 office of the minister, I focussed on this case in particular which was
4 the most important thing at the moment. The minister called to see me,
5 whether it be on the collegium, whether it be individual meetings. There
6 were many such occasions, and it was evident that he was very much
7 interested in having the information as soon as possible, because there
8 were many speculations about there in the media.
9 Throughout the public there was lots of speculation about this,
10 and it was still not proved and it was not established, and it was
11 difficult to hear all of this. That's why it was his interest to settle
12 this matter as soon as possible. On each occasion that we met, he
13 emphasised this: "Hurry up. Do as much as you can, as quickly as you
14 can. Collect the material. Let not time elapse. We need to know the
15 truth and what really happened there as soon as possible."
16 Q. When you say that he wanted to -- the truth to be known, can you
17 please explain for the Trial Chamber, as he was asking for the truth to be
18 revealed, did minister at any moment guided you towards the truth that you
19 were to look for, or did he ask you to elucidate the whole thing and to
20 gain the complete information, or whether there is a different, a third
21 approach by the minister.
22 A. In all of our meetings and in all of our discussions, he wanted an
23 update of the procedure how much I had collected. I told him the people I
24 had contacted, who I am with contact absolutely about everything that was
25 going on, and he gave me absolutely support in this matter.
1 As for special instructions, he let me know that a certain head of
2 a sector of a unit could also give an answer to certain issues, so he gave
3 me a kind of instructions, sort of to direct my activities, so I would not
4 sway too much in this matter.
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. You've told us that Mrs. Jovanovksa handed
6 over some of the materials to you containing reports by the Human Rights
7 Watch and some information, as well as some analysis. Can you please try
8 and recall how many pages of the information and analysis were contained
9 in the file that was handed over to you by Mrs. Jovanovska?
10 A. I cannot tell you the exact number. There was the report from
11 Human Rights Watch; I recall this. And, as I said just a while back,
12 there were analytical information, but I cannot tell you the exact number.
13 They encompassed not only Ljuboten but a broader context, perhaps even the
14 whole conflict period, although the focus was on the Ljuboten events. Due
15 to these reasons, she as charged with the tasks to prepare this
16 comprehensive information that would pertain particularly to this case.
17 These were analytical information. I cannot tell you number,
18 since this was the first day that she gave them to me. But it is not to
19 be excluded that our-- in our pursuant meetings, she would give me a new
20 piece of information, also analytical information.
21 Q. Mrs. Galeva, I'm sure that at this moment, as you sit here, you
22 cannot remember the total quantity of the information, but I would kindly
23 ask you to look at the file that is before you and look at the document
24 after tab 25, which is Exhibit 1D136.
25 And, as we can see in the heading, this is a document issued by
1 the Ministry of Interior, recorded under number 51, drafted on the 20th of
2 August, 2001.
3 Before I ask you anything about this document, obviously since you
4 joined the ministry only in December 2001, would it be true if I said that
5 at this time, the time of the document, you were not an employee of the
6 Ministry of Interior?
7 A. In August 2001, no.
8 Q. To the extent you can recollect the documents that you took over
9 from Mrs. Jovanovska, could you please look at this information and tell
10 me whether the file you had been given contained a piece of information
11 with similar content; or maybe even this particular document, now that
12 you're looking at this document, maybe you will be able to recall it.
13 Did you have enough time to look at this document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you then answer my question, and the question is this: Do you
16 remember whether this document, whether this piece of information was
17 among the documents that you received from Mrs. Jovanovska, or perhaps you
18 cannot answer that question at all?
19 A. I believe I had this information in the file, which Ms. Jovanovska
20 gave me.
21 Q. What has jogged your memory when you looked at document? How
22 could you remember that this particular piece of information was contained
23 in that file?
24 A. It is -- it remains so in my memory. I remember the information
25 which I received from her were prepared in such a fashion. There was a
1 chronological order of events, a chronological approach to the events.
2 Q. Thank you. And now kindly look at the document behind tab 26.
3 The Exhibit number is 1D135 and the page is 1D1446 --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's correction: 1D4416.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Please go immediately to page 2, which is 1D4417.
7 A. My apologies. This is 26?
8 Q. Yes, 36 [as interpreted], tab 26?
9 A. Because I cannot see D 14. There's 1D35. Is this correct?
10 Q. At the bottom of the page, it's 1D00-4416. This is the first
11 page. The other page is ...
12 Do you have it now?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On page 1D4417, and you can see the number at the bottom of the
15 page, in the upper portion, you can see that the number of the document is
16 the same as the previous one. Even the date is the same, the date when
17 the document was drafted. And now go back to the previous page, please,
18 and the number of that page is 1D4416. We're looking at the bottom of the
20 And now I would kindly ask you to tell me whether Mrs. Jovanovska
21 or somebody else, for that matter, had ever explained to you why these
22 documents had been drafted? Who needed that information and who were the
23 people briefed about the information collected in that way?
24 A. I knew that those were information produced by the analytics
25 department that were sent to the Minister of the Interior initially, and
1 then they were forwarded to the government.
2 Q. In the file provided to you by Mrs. Jovanovska, do you remember
3 whether this document or the letter that accompanied the original document
4 was also there? The accompanying letter shows that this was sent to the
5 government of the Republic of Macedonia to the attention of Mr. Ilija
6 Filipovski. Can you remember whether in this file there were any similar
7 documents reminding you of the one that you have before you at the moment?
8 A. I remember that the information I received through Katica were
9 exclusively analytics information without such accompanying documents, to
10 whom -- to whose attention is the information September; and whether it is
11 the government or another institution, it was only analytical information
12 elaborating on events that took place during that period.
13 Now, whether those information were forwarded then to the
14 government or another institution, I wouldn't know. And I am certain
15 about this one, about this specific example, where it written that it is
16 sent to the government of the Republic of Macedonia coordination body,
17 crisis management body for the attention of Mr. Ilija Filipovski. I'm
18 certain that there was nothing of the sort there.
19 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can you please look at document after tab
20 27, which is Exhibit 1D34, and the page numbers are 1D1904.
21 Please take some time to look at the document and then tell me
22 whether, among the documents handed over to you by Mrs. Jovanovska, there
23 was also this piece of information which was drafted in November 2001.
24 A. As far as I remember, this information was included within the
25 materials that I received from the director of public security bureau,
1 Mr. Goran Mitevski, and not those that I received from Katica Jovanovska.
2 Q. Thank you. You've now mentioned, again, director of the office of
3 public security, Mr. Mitevski. As far as I can remember, at your first
4 meeting with the minister, you also heard that a commission had already
5 worked on these issues.
6 Tell me, please, with regard to the tasks that you had been given,
7 did you have any meetings with Director Mitevski; and if you did, what was
8 the essence of your meetings? What did you discuss?
9 A. With the director, Mr. Goran Mitevski, we met roughly several days
10 after the meeting at the minister's office when he invited me in order to
11 give me the materials that the committee had available. So it's the same
12 issues that we already discussed in the meeting with the minister, because
13 he was tasked with giving me a copy of all of the materials that the
14 committee has gathered. And so I phoned him, I called him, we had a
15 conversation, and he gave me voluminous written materials.
16 We dealt with certain topics. We reviewed them document by
17 document so that he could explain to me what was the nature of those
18 documents, and he would give me guidelines for my future work, in terms of
19 what they had done thus far and what could I contribute, what could I
20 gather apart from those.
21 Q. After quite a number of years that have passed, can you try and
22 remember what was contained in the case file that Mr. Mitevski gave you?
23 A. As far as I can remember, we had, first, the decision to establish
24 the committee, minister's decision, the committee tasked with
25 investigating the events of the 12th of August. I remember this decision
1 was dated, I believe, afterwards. The 13th of August was the date when
2 this committee was established. And its members were the director of
3 public security bureau, Goran Mitevski, as the chair of the committee;
4 then there were two members, General Risto Galevski, as the head of the
5 police department, and Zivko Petrovski as Head of the Crime Police
6 Department. That was a decision and it contained a provision that
7 the committee is tasked with producing a report and information for the
8 minister about those events.
9 So this was -- there was this decision; then there was the result
10 of this task, the information produced by the committee about the events
11 in the village of Ljuboten; then there were many other materials,
12 materials from the OSCE, some materials from the Ministry of Defence, from
13 the army. There were also materials from the crisis management centre;
14 also materials from the security and counter-intelligence directorate;
15 then the department for internal affairs, Cair.
16 Of course, there were also the materials on the exhumation,
17 related to the exhumation; the proposal for the exhumation that was
18 submitted by the ministry based on the minister's order submitted to the
19 basic public prosecutor office and to the investigating judge. There was
20 some additional things there; Official Notes, court acts, court requesting
21 some information from the ministry as well.
22 So those are the documents that can I remember at the moment. So
23 it was a complex case file that really contained many documents within it.
24 Q. As you sit here today, can you remember how many documents there
25 were? At least give us an approximate number.
1 A. I can't give you any number. I can say that it was a voluminous
2 file, but, really, I could not give you any number because I never counted
3 them. It was very thick. It was a heavy case file, heavy to lift it, the
4 materiels that he gave me and then those that I additionally collected.
5 Q. I'm now going to ask you, Mrs. Galeva, to look at the document
6 after tab 1, which is exhibit number P73.
7 The first thing you told us was that from Director Mitevski you
8 had received among the files of documents was a decision to establish a
9 commission issued by the minister.
10 You have before you a document dated the 13th of August, 2001. Do
11 you recognise this document as the decision that Director Mitevski gave
13 A. Yes, that's the one.
14 Q. You've told us that the responsible directors of the ministry were
15 the persons who were appointed to that commission. Their names are
16 Mitevski, Galevski, and Petrovski.
17 At the moment when you joined the Ministry of Interior in 2002,
18 were these same people in the same positions? Did they perform the same
20 A. As far as I remember, Mr. Goran Mitevski, yes, he was the director
21 of the bureau for public security. Mr. Risto Galevski, I believe he was
22 no longer head of the department for police; or this is how I remember
23 things, that he was at the police academy maybe, but don't hold me by my
24 word. I know that he was no long negotiate this position. Zivko
25 Petrovski was also no longer performing this position when I arrived at
1 the ministry.
2 Q. Can you try and remember, Mrs. Galeva, who were the people who
3 replaced Galevski and Petrovski at the moment when you joined the
5 A. Head of the police department was Mr. Zoran Jovanovski, and head
6 of the criminal police department was Mr. Spasen Sofevski.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at document which is after
8 tab 2 in my binder. This is Exhibit number P378.
9 In answering my previous question, you said that in the case file
10 that you had been given at the time, there was also a piece of information
11 that the task force compiled in keeping with a decision and the task given
12 to it.
13 When you look at this information that is before you now, would
14 you say that this is the document that was handed over to you by Director
15 Mitevski in his case file?
16 A. Yes, that is the information.
17 Q. You've also told us that the case file contained certain other
18 documents. You've told us that there were the UBK documents.
19 Before I go on showing you some other documents, can you please
20 tell me whether you actually read all the documents that you had been
21 given by the director?
22 A. From the director of the public security bureau, is that it?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. There were some information, yes, coming from the UBK directorate
25 for security and counter-intelligence. Of course, I had read those. I
1 had started those.
2 Q. Would you able to recall what the information was all about? Did
3 it have anything to do with the task that you were given.
4 A. Yes. Those were information received again during that time
5 dealing with this entire period. There was an information. I remember
6 one rather more comprehensive information that made an overview when
7 the -- a bit also to the period before it, but it was focussed on the
8 events of Ljuboten and it was rather interesting as the other information,
9 the shorter information, because they presented interesting materials.
10 Those were materials refuting the assertions that on the critical
11 date civilians were injured, that there were crimes against civilians, et
12 cetera. The information gathered by the administration speak to something
13 completely different. They are based on the information from the field,
14 from the surveillance and operational technologies, as well as other
15 methods, that are dealing with this entire period. And it was known in
16 advance, or maybe I shouldn't use the words in advance, but during all
17 time, it was known what was under preparation and what was about to happen
18 there in that area.
19 There also information from the interviews from the -- from the
20 conversation with the informants people who were giving them information
21 about the developments, related to logistical support, strategy, mode of
22 operation, what is being done. Some names were also mentioned, the people
23 involved in that, and under whose command things were done during the
25 Q. Would you please look at the document after tab 6.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is Exhibit 1D141. Page 1 is
2 1D4707 in the English version and 1D4705 in the Macedonian version.
3 Q. You've just told us, Mrs. Galeva, that the case filed contained a
4 lot of information. If you can't recall clearly whether you saw this
5 information, I'm not going to insist; but if you can remember, then please
6 tell us if you ever saw this piece of information, i.e., whether this
7 piece of information was of the nature similar to the documents that you
8 saw in the director's case file, the one he handed over to you.
9 Please try and answer my question.
10 A. I can't say with certainty, but I know that there were numerous
11 similar information. I can't really be absolutely certain when reading
12 these names here or something, but I know there was similar information,
13 many of them.
14 Q. I am now going to ask to you lock at the document which is behind
15 tab 7, the following tab.
16 A. 7, do you mean?
17 Q. Yes. I apologise. Actually, it is the document after tab 7 which
18 is 1D142. Yes, I was right the first time, and my question is the same as
19 the previous one.
20 First of all, can you remember whether this piece of information
21 was contained in the case file that you had been given, i.e., whether this
22 type of information was something that was contained in the case file that
23 you received from Director Mitevski?
24 A. There were numerous such information. There were similar
25 information in the material that I received from Mr. Goran Mitevski, as
1 well as in the materials I received from Mr. Nikola Spasovski, since
2 the -- as a director of the directorate for security and
3 counter-intelligence, of course he offered me many such documents,
4 information gathered, interviews carried out. There was a large number of
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that
8 the -- this would be a good time for our break.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
10 We will have the first break now and resume in half an hour.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mrs. Galeva, before I proceed with my questions, I'd like to
16 inform you that during the break, I had a look at the transcript and now I
17 would like to clarify one thing with you. That maybe the result of either
18 the interpretation or the result of my question put in a concern way.
19 I would kindly ask you to answer this: If you remember, you've
20 told us that, in December, you started looking for a new job. Tell me,
21 when exactly did you sign your first contract with the Ministry of
23 A. Work contract was signed the 1st of April, 2002.
24 Q. And before that, did you have a contract of any kind? As I could
25 see here, you said that you had something that implied a procedure.
1 A. This was the end of December 2001, if I'm not mistaken, 25th of
2 December, 2001, when I was called in for the first time and was told that
3 there was an empty work position in this sector and that we can start the
4 procedure to -- for my employment. This was, I believe, the 25th of
5 December, 2001; then the formal procedure was carried out of approval,
6 securing resources.
7 But throughout this whole time, I was almost always present in the
8 ministry. I came earlier, this is true, prior to concluding the first
9 contract in order to acquaint myself with the work that I will be doing
10 with my direct superiors and those above them to see how the structure and
11 the organisational positioning of the ministry was. These were contacts
12 with the sector for legal and general affairs and so forth.
13 Q. I believe that this now clarifies the answer that you provided
14 earlier on page 4, line 20, and page 5.
15 However, I would ask you this: After having signed your first
16 work contract on the 25th of December, during the period of time which
17 started with the 25th of December until the moment you finally took the
18 job on the 1st of April, did you come to the ministry, and during that
19 period of time, did you perform some tasks in the ministry?
20 A. Yes. Almost throughout this whole time, I was present there with
21 some breaks naturally. Since my law firm was still operational, it was
22 not closed down. I came here. As I said, I carry out the regular context
23 I mentioned, with the persons I mentioned, with whom I had to work later
24 on. I went to the places where I had to spend my period of
25 apprenticeship, which preceded the conclusion of the second work contract;
1 that is to say, the decision of the 1st of April, 2002, continually. From
2 the period from 25th of December - if the date is correct - 2001, to
3 obtaining the contract in April 2002, I was present in the ministry with
4 small breaks in between. And, in a way, I was included in the work that
5 preceded it.
6 Q. Thank you. Now it's a bit more clear to me.
7 When you were talking about having received documents from
8 Director Mitevski, you've told us that the case file also contained some
9 documents from other sources and other organs of the Ministry of Interior.
10 As far as I can remember, you mentioned some documents that originated
11 from Cair. Did I understand you properly?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you now please look at the document behind tab 3, which is
15 Did you ever - and when - see this document?
16 A. I have seen this document. I believe it was part of the material
17 which I received from Director Goran Mitevski in -- and the material I
18 received from Petre Stojanovski who was assistant of criminal police in
19 the sector of interior affairs for the city of Skopje.
20 Q. Thank you. Could you now please look at the document which is
21 after tab 4 -- I apologise, tab 5, and the exhibit number is P23.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document is
23 under seal, I suppose because of the fact that it has been shown to
24 somebody whose identity may be revealed through this document. That is
25 why I would ask for the document not to be shown in public.
1 Q. As we can see, this document originates from the police station in
2 Mirkovci, at Cair, and it's an Official Note.
3 Please look at this document and tell me whether you saw this
4 document before; and if you did, on what occasion and when you saw it.
5 Did you see it in the case file provided to you by the director or
6 on some other occasion and in some other place?
7 A. I'm sure that this was part of the material I received from
8 Mr. Petre Stojanovski, but it is not to be excluded that it was also part
9 of the material of Goran Mitevski.
10 Q. I apologise.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can tell, it's on the
12 screen that document P46.15 appears. This is the previous document that I
13 asked the witness about. This document is after tab 4, and is also under
15 Q. And now can you see it on your screen. And since we already have
16 the document on the screen, I'm going to ask you whether you ever saw
17 this document before and also on what occasion and in what place;
18 obviously, if you did see it at all.
19 A. Yes. I have seen this document as a document prepared by the
20 sector of the crime lab, the forensics, at the request of the
21 investigative unit of Basic Court Skopje II, where they request
22 supplemental answers to certain questions.
23 As for exactly which material this was a part of, perhaps this was
24 part of the two materials I mentioned, and it is possible that I received
25 this from the sector of the forensics, the materials I received from
1 there, because this is this document, after all.
2 Q. And now we will go back to the document after tab 5, which is also
3 a document under seal. The Exhibit number is P23.
4 As far as I can remember, you have already told us that you saw
5 this document before. Is that correct?
6 A. [No interpretation]
7 Q. This is in line 9, and you told -- you've told us this is an
8 Official Note; this is in line 10. I asked you about it, and you say in
9 line 15 that you're sure that you received this material from Petre
10 Stojanovski, but you cannot rule out the possibility that it is part of
11 the Goran Mitevski case file.
12 Would that be your answer with regard to this document?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. In answering some of my previous questions, as far as
15 I can remember, you've told us that the materials that you received also
16 contained a conclusion of the government which had considered the
17 information by the first commission. Did I understand you well?
18 A. Yes. This material included a government conclusion which charged
19 the Ministry of Interior and the Ministry of Defence to prepare a joint
20 information for the events in Ljuboten; that is to say, there was an
21 obligation for both ministries to that end.
22 Q. Can you please look at the document after tab 10. This is Exhibit
23 number 1D134.
24 Mrs. Galeva, tell me, please, did you ever see this document
1 A. The conclusion of the government, I have seen, but not in this
2 form and shape. The content is the same. The form is different, however.
3 Q. Can you please tell us what was the form of the conclusion that
4 you received from Mr. Mitevski? What did it look like?
5 A. It was a text written in the usual way, on a piece of paper in
6 written form, not in this form in which it is given here, with tables. A
7 typical conclusion passed by the government, an ordinary written text.
8 Q. I thank you. In answering my previous question and providing some
9 explanation, you have told us that in that material, and in the
10 government's conclusion, there was also an obligation on the part of the
11 Ministry of Interior and the Ministry of Defence to draft some additional
12 documents. Is that what you've told us?
13 A. Yes. There was a -- the government charged the two ministries to
14 prepare a joint information that will deal exclusively with this event.
15 Q. Did you ever see any documents that would mean that the
16 government's conclusion had been carried out?
17 A. Well, yes. As far as I can recall, this was at the beginning of
18 September 2001. This was the date of the conclusion of the government.
19 So, by the end of the month, the information was prepared by the Ministry
20 of Interior, and a proposal was given to the Ministry of Defence. Through
21 the state secretary, a joint meeting was requested, on which this can
22 be -- this could be carried out.
23 Q. I would now kindly ask to you look at the document after tab 11,
24 which is Exhibit number 1D137.
25 Tell us, please, whether this document is the one that you have
1 just testified about.
2 A. Yes. As far as I can see, this is the information. This is the
3 address of the state secretary of the MOI, Buckovski, to the Ministry of
4 Defence with a proposal for the proposal of the information be amended and
5 finalised on this joint meeting that he is requesting.
6 Q. Did you ever receive any material that would provide you with
7 information as to what had happened later with the proposal for joint
8 information to be drafted?
9 A. I know that this was the position of the government and that this
10 joint information had to be drafted and prepared. What happened after
11 that, I do not know.
12 Q. Besides the meeting with Mr. Mitevski when he provided you with
13 all this information and some of the documents, when it came to the tasks
14 with the same regard, did you continue meeting with Mr. Mitevski; and if
15 the answer is yes, what was the goal of these meetings and what did you
16 talk about during those meetings?
17 A. Of course, there were such meetings in continuity. Surely, he was
18 interested in what I do and what I was doing, which materials I was
19 collecting; and on each such occasion and meeting, he gave me additional
20 information, not just in written form but also verbally -- verbal
22 Q. When you provided an overview of all of the informations that was
23 initially given to you by Mr. Mitevski, you mentioned that there was also
24 a proposal for exhumation. Can you please explain and tell us what this
25 was all about?
1 A. Concretely, on this proposal, it is true that I spoke about this
2 with Director Goran Mitevski, and he explained to me everything that
3 transpired and preceded the proposal for exhumation. This critical day,
4 to call it such, of the 12th of August, information was given by the MOI
5 through the duty operations centre. The investigator submitted to the
6 duty investigative judge and public prosecutor about what had happened.
7 But in view of the truly serious security situation of that day,
8 it was practically impossible to go there to that place. An attempt to
9 that extend was made two days later, on the 14th of August, when a team
10 was formed with an investigative judge, deputy public prosecutor, a
11 doctor, expert persons from the forensic unit at the ministry who came to
12 the unit to OVR Cair.
13 He had a meeting with the head of OVR Cair, Ljube Krstevski, and
14 the goal was this: Such a team to investigate was formed, the goal of
15 which was to go to the site of the events. At that moment, they are in
16 contact and establish cooperation with member of parliament -- Fatmir
17 Etemi, member of parliament, who for the most part, because he was already
18 on the in the village, had to inform them about the situation there and
19 the possibility for that investigation team to go there and complete its
21 Therefore, they made a number of attempts, but they were
22 unsuccessful due to the fact that the security situation did not allow
23 this. This is why it was subsequently decided that this be done in some
24 future time, when the international community was also expected to take
25 part and to secure the conditions to carry out this exhumation.
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: Sorry to interrupt. I'm just wondering whether it
4 could be clarified whether this lengthy explanation that the witness has
5 just given was information given to her by Goran Mitevski, information
6 that she compiled and analysed from all of her sources, or what is her
7 source for this information.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mrs. Galeva, you have heard the objection and the Prosecutor's
11 The Prosecutor would like to know whether you heard all this from
12 Goran Mitevski or whether you obtained some of this information through
13 your own analysis of the materials?
14 A. This was first as information given to me by Director Goran
15 Mitevski; but the same information, I also received from other sources,
16 from employees at the ministry, and I think that follows throughout for
17 the whole material. This event and the activities undertaking --
18 undertaken by the MOI, which was not made possible, was part of these
20 Q. Now that we have just mentioned this exhumation proposal and you
21 said that it was first mentioned to you by Director Mitevski, did he ever
22 tell I who it was that submitted this exhumation proposal?
23 A. Yes. The proposal was given by the Minister of the Interior.
24 This was the beginning of September 2002 -- 2001, and it was submitted to
25 the basic public prosecutor's office and to the investigative judge at the
1 investigation unit at Basic Court Skopje.
2 Q. And now kindly look at the document behind tab 13, which is P102.
3 Tell me, please, when it comes to this document, was it contained
4 among the documents that you received from Goran Mitevski or did you
5 receive this document in some other way, through some other channels?
6 A. I received this from Mr. Goran Mitevski.
7 Q. At the very top of this document, you can see some corrections.
8 At the time when you received the document, did you notice these
9 corrections in the left upper corner?
10 A. Yes. I noted this immediately, and I asked about this. I was
11 allowed to see a supplement document which came together with this
12 proposal submitted to the basic public prosecutor's office and the duty
13 investigative judge, where it is said that this is a technical mistake.
14 Since there was only a technical mistake of the month, there was a
15 supplemental document to that end stating this.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at the document after tab 15.
17 But before that, if we you look at that document, could you please
18 tell me whether, while performing the task that you had been given,
19 whether you also learned that the prosecutor's office, i.e., the court,
20 accepted the initiative on the part of the Ministry of Interior?
21 A. Yes. This is document from the public prosecutor's office to an
22 investigative judge from the Basic Court. I have not seen this document.
23 I have not seen this document, but I was told that immediately after the
24 submissions of the proposal of the 7th of September, 2001 for the
25 exhumation from the minister of the ministry, the same was accepted by the
1 basic public prosecutor's office, which then submitted a proposal for
2 undertaking various investigative activities to the investigative judge.
3 Thus, the proposal was accepted. This is what I was told.
4 Q. If I understand you properly, in the documents that were handed
5 over to you by Mr. Mitevski, there was no document to this effect, i.e.,
6 this document was not contained in that case file.
7 Please answer because I believe that your answer has not been
8 recorded. Your answer to my question has not been recorded. Please
9 repeat it.
10 A. I have not seen it, but I was told; and afterwards in the material
11 related to this area, it was noted that such document existed.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This was Exhibit number P55.02.
13 We have just looked at that document.
14 Q. And now I'm going to ask to you look at the document after tab 16,
15 which is P -- Exhibit 1D46. The Exhibit number is 1D46.
16 This is an Official Note by the investigating judge, Dragan
17 Nikolovski. Tell me, please, whether you received this document from
18 Mr. Mitevski?
19 A. Yes. Yes. I had received this document because this was a
20 document, act, sent to the ministry, more precisely to the public security
21 bureau, and they requested some additional information, some data, to be
22 elucidated before the process of exhumation were to start.
23 As you can see, those data pertain to the identity of the buried
24 people, the location of the graves, time of burial, et cetera.
25 Q. Could we now please look at the document after tab 18, which is
1 exhibit 1D47. Tab 18, 1D47.
2 As can you see, this is another document by the investigating
3 judge, Dragan Nikolovski. Tell me, did you ever see it before; and if you
4 did, when was it that you saw it?
5 A. I have received this document from the director, Mr. Goran
7 Q. So I can then take it that you received this document among all
8 the others that were provided to you by Director Mitevski?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Could you now please look at the document after
11 tab 17, which is exhibit 1D73.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The page number is N005-0754 in
13 the Macedonian version, and we also have an English version.
14 Q. Mrs. Galeva, we have before us a document by the Ministry of
15 Interior bearing the date of 18 September 2001, and it is entitled
16 "Official Note."
17 Mrs. Galeva, tell me, please, at the time when you were charged
18 with the relevant tasks, did you see this document; and if you did, can
19 you remember who it was that had provided it to you?
20 A. I remember that this was an Official Note produced by the criminal
21 police and I believe it was given to me by the head of the forensics,
22 Mr. Miroslav Uslinkovski.
23 Q. At the time when you spoke to your superiors, Director Mitevski,
24 and the minister, and when you briefed them on what you were involved
25 with, tell me, how did you understand the whole situation?
1 Did you understand that the police work was something that was
2 very much confined to the framework of the police, or was it rather a
3 transparent activity with regard to the investigation of this problem?
4 A. From everything that I collected, all the materials, all the
5 interviews I conducted, I gathered the impression that the work was
6 completely transparent; nothing was hidden. From the very beginning of
7 the work, all justice system bodies were involved. The judiciary, the
8 public prosecutor's office, and the government was informed about all of
9 that. So everything that took part within the ministry was communicated
10 to the outside. Nothing was hidden. Everything was transparent,
12 Q. You said that you had received this Official Note, and I suppose
13 that you read it and learned about it its contents, but can you confirm:
14 Did you read this Official Note?
15 A. Yes. I remember this Official Note.
16 Q. I would kindly ask you to look at the last paragraph in the
17 Macedonian language on page 1, which also the last paragraph in the
18 English version, again, on the first page.
19 I'm go to read it to. It says here: Dr. Aleksej Duma affirmed
20 his willingness to affect the exhumation and autopsy following the
21 previously served order from the investigating judge; and also stated that
22 in order to avoid any subsequent manipulation of the autopsy results of
23 the buried remains in the village of Ljuboten, he would arrange for his
24 supervisors to be present during the investigation, in the form of
25 competent individuals from the Skopje office of The Hague Tribunal."
1 In this regard, I would like to ask you, Mrs. Galeva, whether,
2 through your conversations with Director Mitevski and other superiors and
3 heads of departments, you could gain a certain understanding of the
4 workings of the ministry. Was the ministry open to provide all
5 information and to involve the international community in clarifying all
6 the issues surrounding the village of Ljuboten?
7 A. Yes, of course. So that was their attitude, attitude of the
8 ministry, first of all; and then it was reiterated in the consultation
9 meeting that preceded the procedure of exhumation, where a joint position
10 was taken that the best option would be to allow for the participation in
11 the procedure of the supervisors from the ICTY office in Skopje in order
12 to avoid any manipulations. And at that, the forensics police or any
13 other services from within the ministry would be made completely available
14 for any needs.
15 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to something that you said at the very
17 After your first meeting with the under-secretary for crime
18 prevention police, at which he asked you to follow the exhumation, as far
19 as I can remember, you said that you spoke to Mr. Uslinkovski first and
20 that he also confirmed to you that the forensic technicians were in the
21 process of exhumation, but that at the time they were engaged and they
22 could not brief you any further.
23 Tell me, after that, did you have any other contacts with
24 Mr. Uslinkovski?
25 A. Yes, of course. I had several meetings with him. I met him
1 several times, both meetings between the two of us and group meetings. So
2 he informed me on absolutely everything on the entire course of the
3 exhumation procedure, and he provided some interesting findings from this.
4 Initially, that allegedly the entire procedure was headed by an
5 investigating judge from our judicial bodies, while the main leader was
6 the representative of the ICTY, the investigator Tucker, and the
7 pathologist Eric, and that the forensics police was basically -- of the
8 Ministry of Interior was basically just a technical service to provide all
9 the facilities for the operation to be carried out.
10 Apart from this - if this what you were referring to - after the
11 procedure of exhumation was completed what was I told from Uslinkovski, we
12 had very interesting discussions regarding this. Actually, that was the
13 main purpose. The exhumation was to provide answers to many questions,
14 many dilemmas presented at that time, and this is why it was of utmost
15 importance to complete everything as soon as possible and to provide the
17 However, it was impossible to publish the answer because the MOI
18 was in charge only of making an Official Note about the date.
19 Q. Just a moment, please. Let me ask you something else.
20 In addition to the number of conversations that you had with
21 Mr. Uslinkovski, as you have just told us, did you receive from him any
22 materials given the task that you had been given? Did Mr. Uslinkovski,
23 i.e., the forensic technicians, give you any documents with regard to the
24 exhumations that they were involved in?
25 A. I received the Official Note produced by them. I received some
1 sketches, maps of the locations of the graveyards, places where the
2 persons were buried, some photo albums containing photographs of those
3 persons. Mainly, that was the range of the materials.
4 Q. Can you now please look at the document after tab 19, which is
5 Exhibit number P55.34.
6 Mrs. Galeva, did you ever see this document before? Was it
7 provided to you with the other documents from some body?
8 A. Yes. This was a list of persons, individuals from the forensic
9 police that participated in this procedure. I received a copy of this
10 document, again, from the head of police forensics sector.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at the document after tab 20,
12 which is Exhibit number 1D05.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The first page in the Macedonian
14 version bears the number - I apologise - N001-0130; and in the English
15 version, it is 1D00-2923.
16 Q. This is a report on the exhumations conducted in Ljuboten drafted
17 by the Basic Court in Skopje; the Lower Court II in Skopje, that is.
18 Before we start dealing with the document, tell me, please,
19 Mrs. Galeva, whether you saw the document before?
20 A. I haven't seen this document before.
21 Q. Thank you. And now can you look at the document after tab 21,
22 which is Exhibit number 1D74.
23 Also, before we actually start discussing the document, can you
24 tell me whether you ever saw this document before?
25 A. No, I haven't seen it.
1 Q. Thank you. And now can we look at the document which is after
2 your tab number 23, which is Exhibit number P55.20.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The first page number in English
4 is ET N002-1196 to N002-1207.
5 Q. Did you ever see this document? Did you receive its copy as part
6 of your task that you had been given?
7 A. Yes. I received this document from the sector for forensics
8 police. I had received a copy of it.
9 Q. Tell me, when you look at this document, what does it contain?
10 A. This document deals with the entire process of exhumation and
12 Q. I apologise, I apologise. You started by saying that
13 Mr. Uslinkovski provided you with some interesting information with regard
14 to the exhumations and post-mortems.
15 Tell me, if you remember, of course, what would the most important
16 things that you found most intriguing with regard to the impression that
17 was shared with you by the head of the crime prevention and forensic
18 department who assisted the exhumations?
19 A. This is the Official Note that actually deals with the formal
20 procedure exhumation and post-mortem. And about the results now? The
21 results need to be officially produced by the Forensics Medicine
22 Institute, who was tasked with that; and before that, one couldn't say
23 anything. The judge can't say anything, nor the institute.
24 But one could not preclude the possibility -- actually, in an
25 informal conversation, I was told those interesting things that I had
1 mentioned. First, I heard them in conversation with Mr. Uslinkovski. I
2 was asking the question about what could one see there, because there was
3 a post-mortem performed on those ten corpses, and certainly some findings
4 from that could serve as indicators and speak to something that could
5 later provide some clarification.
6 His general idea was that, and also what he said was, that at no
7 rate - and he expressly stated this - it was completely impossible that
8 they were civilians with the exception of three persons: That young boy,
9 the 13-year-old boy; then the older man who died of cardiac arrest.
10 Because for the two persons, so with the exception of this heart attack
11 person, it was definitely established that they were hit by shells, and we
12 know that this was not within the armament of the Ministry of Interior.
13 Secondly, for the remaining individuals, it was very interesting
14 that in August, for instance, when we know what is the climate in
15 Macedonia, the high temperatures, and they were all wearing - most of
16 them - wearing black jackets, thick woolen socks, and sweaters. On some
17 of them bullets were found. So they were wearing black T-shirts or
18 camouflage T-shirts.
19 So all of that were indicators that deviated from the topic of or
20 from the thesis that those were civilians only. And I will stress, again,
21 the head of the forensics police on the basis of what he saw, because he
22 was the most active participant, was the only one from within the ministry
23 who was a participant. So his final position was that it was absolutely
24 impossible that those were civilians. But I mentioned this before as
25 well. Still the ministry was in a way left aside during this process.
1 Its only role was to be the technical service, while the final word
2 belonged to the ICTY investigate, and it was all chaired by the judge.
3 Q. Thank you. Given the fact that you embarked on this job in order
4 to monitor the process of exhumations and post-mortems as a precondition
5 towards finding out what had happened, tell me, did you have any meetings
6 with some other individuals from whom you wanted to obtain either
7 information or documents?
8 A. Regarding the exhumation, yes. So, since it was already ongoing,
9 this was towards the end of the exhumation, I asked for a meeting with
10 Mr. Duma, the director of the Forensics Medicine Institute. Immediately
11 After the discussion with Mr. Uslinkovski, I believe he would be able to
12 provide some answers to questions.
13 In the conversation with him, I got the answer that he could not
14 give any official information, because the legal obligations determined
15 that the entire flow of the information that the reports that the
16 Forensics Medicine Institute needs to produce should be submitted
17 officially to the Court and not to the Ministry of Interior, and that was
18 why he was not able to give me any written information.
19 But we did have an oral conversation which was also very
20 interesting, because it was to, a large extent, identical to what I had
21 already heard by Mr. Uslinkovski. Those same notions were confirmed that
22 Mr. Duma, that all the metal fragments found inside the persons' bodies
23 were part of a projectiles of the shells and that the shelling was done
24 from a distance. This gives strong evidence to the fact that there were
25 discrepancies between the notions of weapons that the Ministry of Interior
1 had. These are convention weapons, recognised weapons. I should not
2 enumerated, but there is a rule book dealing with this; handguns,
3 automatic guns. So shelling was outside of the possibilities of the
4 Ministry of Interior, as well as other items found there.
5 Q. Tell me, please, Mrs. Galeva, did you have just one meeting with
6 Professor Duma or did you have several conversations with him dealing with
7 that topic?
8 A. Initially, I had one meeting. The first meeting was during the
9 exhumation, but he was very busy as everybody else. And we, of course,
10 agreed for the exhumation procedure to be completed; and after that, we
11 had several meetings. But those were oral meetings, one-on-one meetings,
12 when all the issues were presented to me.
13 Q. You said that Professor Duma had told that you he would send all
14 the post-mortem reports to the investigating judge, because this was the
15 only legal requirement upon him and the only legal possibility for him to
16 give a post-mortem reports to anybody.
17 My question is this: In your conversation with him, did you learn
18 from him whether, in the course of the exhumations, any other expertise
19 had been requested; and if the answer is yes, do you know who the experts
20 were who performed those expertise?
21 A. I apologise. Could you please repeat this question about the
22 expert testimony, expertise?
23 Q. If I understood you properly, Mr. Uslinkovski had told that you he
24 was involved in the technical side of the exhumations. He referred you,
25 in a certain way, to Professor Duma. Professor Duma, if I understood you
1 correctly again, told you that he had to draft the post-mortem reports and
2 that the only person he could give them to was the investigating judge who
3 was in charge of the whole case.
4 However, you also told me that Professor Duma confirmed what
5 Uslinkovski had told you, and that is that some fragments of weapons had
6 been found as well as some other things.
7 What I would like to know from you is this: In your conversations
8 either with Uslinkovski or with Duma, was reference made to any other
9 forensic expertise was carried out in addition to post-mortems; and if you
10 were told anything to that effect, do you know who the experts forensics
11 experts were? Who was it who should have been in charge of those things?
12 Was it the Ministry of Interior? If that was never mentioned, obviously
13 you cannot answer my question, but my question is whether you remember
14 anything of that sort was ever mentioned in your conversations.
15 A. Yes. Those issues were mentioned among other issues. It was
16 mentioned that -- that despite the request that our bodies participate in
17 the expertise on the findings, still, the representatives of the
18 supervisors of the ICTY office in Skopje insisted that they exclusively
19 participant in the expertise, that the expertise will be carried out in
20 some independent laboratory in Netherlands.
21 After that, during a subsequent meeting that I had with the judge
22 as well, I learned that, allegedly, the investigator made a promise that a
23 complete report from the NLA [as interpreted] analysis, a comparison with
24 the family members and the overall expertise of the ballistic materials
25 that were taken to the independent laboratory, that the entire report will
1 be submitted to our court as well, but this did not happen.
2 Q. I apologise. I believe that you have just mentioned that at one
3 point in time you had a meeting with the judge. Did I understand you
4 properly? Did I understand you well; and if I did, could you then please
5 tell me who is it that you met with and what did you discuss?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And before that, in line 21, page
7 50, there is a mistake in the transcript. It says here that a report is
8 expected from the "NLA." However, the witness said that the report in
9 question is a "DNA" analysis report.
10 Q. I apologise. I asked you something and then I interrupted you
11 before the page moved forward to correct a mistake in the transcript.
12 Let me repeat. If I understood you correctly, you have just told
13 us that this was told to you by a judge in one of your meetings. Now I
14 would like to learn, hear from you whether you met with any judges; and if
15 you did, who that person was and what was discussed?
16 A. Immediately after that, I had a meeting with the investigating
17 judge, Dragan Nikolovski, the judge who was in charge of the entire
18 process. He was in charge, together with another colleague, Beqir
19 Shaqiri. I had a meeting only with the first investigating judge, and I
20 also obtained similar data from him.
21 I asked him for some materials in writing, and I received the same
22 answer, that he excepts that the Forensics Medicine Institute report will
23 be submitted, but the law provides this they not communicate that to the
24 Ministry of Interior. After the judge receives it, the judge should
25 finalise the case file, and then send that to the ICTY.
1 He also mentioned the expertise and it was the same story, that
2 the expertise was not permitted here by our bodies, not even with the
3 presence and participation of the representatives from the ICTY, and that
4 this will be carried out in that independent laboratory.
5 However, our court never received any report from that; neither
6 related to the DNA analysis nor the expertise on other ballistic
8 Q. Since you have just mentioned something to that effect, can you
9 remember how much after the exhumation did you meet with Judge Nikolovski?
10 A. I cannot say precisely, but it was during the summer, June/July,
11 that's for sure, but I cannot recall the exact date. But it was around
12 this time. The process itself lasted until the end of April and then
14 Q. Tell me, please, Mrs. Galeva, in addition to the persons who were
15 in one way or another involved in the exhumations and with some of you --
16 some of them you had certain conversations only and from some of them you
17 received certain documents as well, you have also mentioned that you were
18 provided with some sketches and photos.
19 Can you please look at the document after tab 24, which is Exhibit
20 number P49.098.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we have only the
22 Macedonian version on e-court.
23 Q. I'll kindly ask to you look at the second page of this document
24 and read what it says on that page. As you can see, there is a stamp in
25 the upper part. Can you please read what it says here.
1 Do you want me to read or are you going to read what is says in
2 the circle in the stamp?
3 A. "MOI, forensic unit, criminalistic techniques."
4 Q. Please go on.
5 A. "Sketch from on-site investigation case one, referring to Muslim
6 grave sites in village of Ljuboten, where exhumation will be -- of ten
7 grave sites will be carried out."
8 Q. Can you please go to the next page.
9 Again, you see the sign of the forensic laboratory and the sketch
10 of the site. My question is simple: You said that you had received
11 certain sketches. Is this one of them, or did you receive some similar
12 sketches from the forensic technicians of the Ministry of Interior who
13 provided you with all the materials with regard to the exhumations?
14 A. There were -- there was there sketch but also there were others.
15 This was not the only one.
16 Q. Thank you. In addition to the person who is were in one way or
17 another involved in the process of exhumations, tell me, from the moment
18 you took over the task, did you have any contacts with persons and bodies
19 within the Ministry of Interior who could have provided you certain
21 Let me ask you this: Did you ever have any contact with Mr. Zoran
22 Jovanovski of whom you said that he was the under-secretary for the police
23 in the public security bureau?
24 A. [No interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Jovanovski, yes. Did you ask him and could he provide any
2 A. I had a conversation with him. I was interested to confirm the
3 rumours of involvement of police forces in this event; however, he told me
4 that this could be best answered by General Galevski. Also, I was
5 interested to know was in view of the fact that he was president of the
6 commission about the accusation on the part of the Albanians for
7 maltreatment. He said that he had received no application where they
8 accused policemen for having maltreated them.
9 Since I had already spoken to General Galevski, before seeing
10 Jovanovski, I asked, subquestions, if you will, and identical answers were
11 given to that given by General Galevski.
12 Q. Outside of the ministry at the state level, did you establish any
13 contacts with some other persons in the Ministry of Interior?
14 A. Outside the ministry?
15 Q. I'm referring to the leadership of the Republic of Macedonia. Did
16 you find any sectors, departments, where you could communicate with
17 certain persons; and if you did, could you please tell us who they were.
18 A. In addition to the persons already mentioned, I had -- I was in
19 communication with the bureau for security and counter-intelligence. I
20 had a conversation with General Galevski on numerous occasions; with
21 operative technique units; with Petre Stojanovski, assistant of forensics
22 of -- at the OVR Skopje; operative technical unit.
23 I spoke with --
24 Q. Very well. Let's take things one at a time in order not to
25 confuse the whole matter.
1 You have told us that were in communication with Petre Stojanovski
2 who was the assistant minister for crime police in the security sector of
3 Skopje. Could you perhaps remember who it was and who put you in contact
4 with Mr. Petre Stojanovski?
5 A. It was at the beginning, when I was charged with the task about
6 this event, and my meeting with Katica Jovanovska, who in fact arranged
7 the first meeting and the first talks with Petre Stojanovski, assistant of
8 criminal police at the sector for internal affairs, Skopje. This was our
9 first such meeting, where Jovanovska was also present.
10 He was informed, in short, what my tasks were and what I was
11 working on; and in my discussions with him, he told me that he has a
12 particular interest, that he inducing particular efforts to come to
13 information to find out whether members of the police forces did, in
14 effect, take part in these events; and if this was so, to establish who
15 they were, to establish their identity so that adequate measures can be
17 Efforts were put in, in particular with OVR Cair, since this is
18 the regional sector, and this is where all of the events transpired. So
19 he was in direct link with OVR, with the head of the OVR Cair. But on
20 numerous occasion, he said that on-site visits were made, under very dire
21 security situation; nonetheless, our operatives go there in order to
22 investigate this. Many efforts were made to establish contacts with the
23 Albanian population.
24 Q. Very well. Let's take things slowly, please.
25 Let's go back to certain things. Let's go back to your first
1 meeting with Petre Stojanovski, which took place together with Katica
2 Jovanovska who had actually taken you to him and introduced you to him.
3 Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, this is correct.
5 Q. After that, did you have any other meetings with Mr. Petre
6 Stojanovski? Did you discuss all the issues that you just started talking
7 about? Where did these meetings take place? How were they organised?
8 A. As I mentioned, this was our first meeting, during which Katica
9 was also present. Later on, we met also. We had individual meetings,
10 either in my or his office. He sometimes gave me materials during these
11 meetings, or he sent them by mail, by regular mail. Therefore, I had a
12 number of meetings with him where we talked about a lot of issues, and we
13 agreed about a lot of issues that were pertinent to the case.
14 Q. You said that he provided you with a lot of materials, and my
15 question is this: When you saw him the first time thereafter or some
16 other time, did you ask for these materials from him, or did he provide
17 these materials to you spontaneously? Did Mr. Stojanovski provide
18 materials to you without having to ask?
19 Actually, was this the first time ever that he sent any such
20 materials to the Ministry of Interior, or was that a previously
21 established practice?
22 A. I recalled he said that I was not the only one coming to him
23 requesting such information and material. People before me, my
24 colleagues, requested such materials, similar materials pertaining to this
25 case. And he said, since I was there, he wanted to know how he could
1 help. He had offered some materials he had at his disposal and promised
2 that everything that would ensue in the process of work he would then send
3 to me as well..
4 Q. And then, if I understand you well, he provided some of these
5 materials to you personally and the rest he sent by internal mail?
6 A. Regular mail, correct.
7 Q. Did he ever tell you whether the police of Skopje had been
8 involved in the exhumations? Did you ever discuss any such thing?
9 A. He told me that he is updated, that -- and knows of this process
10 that was going on, but he regretted that the -- the forensic unit was the
11 only body included in this process, that no other bodies were included,;
12 and that it was their tasks to obtain operative information that could be
13 of assistance to this process in parallel with the procedure that was
14 being led.
15 From an operative point of view, how could they have obtained
16 information? As I mentioned, this was done mainly by OVR Cair. People
17 went on-site, people were called in for interviews; but, generally
18 speaking, it was understood that the Albanian population from that area
19 did not want to cooperate and generally blocked the work of the criminal
20 police. They were called in, they promised to give information about
21 persons and what happened; but later on, due to inexplicable circumstances
22 which only they know, they withdrew immediately.
23 Q. Very well. Thank you. I believe we have belaboured on this
24 point, and we would like to avoid any repetitions.
25 Could you please now look at the exhibit of the tab 32, which is
1 Exhibit number P50.009.
2 Before I ask you anything about this document, tell me, at the
3 time when you had more frequent conversations with Mr. Stojanovski, did
4 you also talk about a possible involvement of the judiciary in the events
5 surrounding Ljuboten?
6 A. Yes. He mentioned that, from day one, judicial bodies were also
7 included, both investigative and the prosecution; that they're in constant
8 communication. They ask certain information, and MOI submits information
9 if they're able to do so. If they're blocked or unable to do so, they
10 inform them why they're not able to provide such information. But from
11 day one, they were informed about everything that was going on in the
12 ministry, especially in particular to this case.
13 If you allow me, can I ask, again, about the exhibit, the number
14 of the exhibit you asked me to look at?
15 Q. Tab 32. You have the document on the screen as well. Were you
16 able to find it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You've just told us that Mr. Stojanovski told you that when it
19 came to this case, upon the requests of the court, if I understood you
20 properly, it was mostly OVR Cair that replied to those requests because
21 the event had actually taken place there. Did I understand you properly,
22 or did he tell you something else with this regard?
23 A. No. This is correct, that the response was given by OVR Cair.
24 Q. Could you please look at the document and tell me whether you ever
25 saw this document before, whether it was ever submitted to you, and
1 whether you knew from these conversations that at the requests of the
2 court and the prosecutors office who had already been involved with the
3 case, did the police respond and reply to those requests?
4 A. Yes, of course. These are requests from the Basic Court. There
5 were several such requests. They requested information, some data; and,
6 of course, a reply was given to them in a timely fashion as requested.
7 Q. Could you now please look at the document after tab 33. This is
8 Exhibit P50.010.
9 As you can see, Mrs. Galeva, this is another piece of information
10 on the events and measures taken in the village of Ljuboten area from
11 10 August 2001 to 13 August 2001.
12 Tell me, please, did you see this document before? Did you
13 receive it from anybody; and if you did, can you tell us who it was you
14 received it from?
15 A. Yes. I know this document. I believe I received it in the
16 material from Mr. Petre Stojanovski.
17 Q. And now I would kindly ask to you look at the another document.
18 This time the document is after tab 34. The Exhibit number is P261.
19 Do you have the document?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. This is an Official Note, number 537. This is a report on a
22 deceased person. In the course of the performance of your duties, did you
23 see this Official Note; and if you did, could you please tell us who gave
24 it to you?
25 A. The Official Note is known to me. I think it was also part of the
1 materials received from Mr. Petre Stojanovski.
2 Q. Mrs. Galeva, at the beginning of your work, you were provided with
3 the Human Rights Watch reports. Did you notice in those reports a
4 reference made to a person who had died in hospital?
5 A. I noted there was a deviation from what is presented in the Human
6 Rights Watch report and concretely in this Official Note for which there
7 is proof. In their report, there is also an accusation that a person,
8 Qaili Atulla, was brought in, beaten, as it is listed, to death, and that
9 death occurred in a police, in the police station Mirkovci.
10 However, the situation is altogether different. The above
11 mentioned was kept in police station Mirkovci; but afterwards, urgent
12 medical assistance was called in, and he was brought to the city hospital
13 where a judge was also present. All of these bodies were immediately
14 informed in order to enable them to be at the site, and then the
15 Prosecutor took the work in his hands.
16 Q. What you've just told us, Mrs. Galeva, I don't see it written in
17 this note. Tell me, the information that you just shared with us, did you
18 receive it from Mr. Stojanovski perhaps, when he provided you with this
19 Official Note and when you asked him about.
20 MR. SAXON: Objection.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON: Perhaps Ms. Residovic could ask this important
23 question in a less leading way.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am trying very hard
25 not to lead; but if this was leading, then obviously I will rephrase my
2 JUDGE PARKER: It certainly was leading, Ms. Residovic.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Thank you.
4 Q. You've just told us about a situation. Tell me, how did you
5 obtain the information that you have just shared with us?
6 A. It was -- Mr. Petre Stojanovski told me this. I had this
7 information in the material; and when he was explaining to me the matter
8 at hand, I was also told all of this; and then I made a parallel, or,
9 rather, I compared what was written in Human Rights Watch and what I was
10 able to hear and read.
11 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, in your conversations with Mr. Petre,
12 did you also mention to whom this information was referred at the time, or
13 did you not talk about that at all?
14 A. I cannot recall this.
15 Q. And now I'm going to ask you to look at the document which is
16 behind tab 3.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think we better do that after the next
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you kindly, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: We resume at five past 1.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
25 Q. Mrs. Galeva, you recall that, before the break, we viewed an
1 Official Note dealing with the information related to the death of Atulla
2 Qaili. Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I will ask you now to look at the document in tab 3. That is
5 Exhibit P46.16.
6 Have you found this document?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the upper corner, we see who was the sender of this document.
9 That is the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Macedonia, sector for
10 internal affairs, Skopje, OVR-OOR Cair. The date is 14th of August, 2001.
11 Do you see this?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you can see from the document that it was sent -- could you
14 tell us who whom was it sent?
15 A. To basic public prosecutor's office, Skopje.
16 Q. Could I ask you, please, to look at the attachment to the -- to
17 this document. It is written there: "Attachment, experts testimony an
18 analysis of fire-arm residue. Number 10.2.6-29836," and the second thing
19 is Official Note number 537.
20 You remember that this morning I showed you this document and that
21 you stated you remembered having received some of the documents from the
22 sector of security, Skopje. Do you recall this?
23 A. Yes, I recall this.
24 Q. So the Official Note, number 237 [as interpreted], was attached
25 this document, wasn't it?
1 I will ask you to remain at this page and to look at the exhibit
2 in tab 34. This is the Exhibit P261.
3 Tell me, please, Mrs. Galeva, is this the actual document
4 mentioned in the document of OVR Cair and that was forwarded to the basic
5 public prosecutor's office, Skopje?
6 A. Yes. This is the document, the Official Note number 537, which is
7 attached to the document sent to the basic prosecutor's office.
8 Q. Tell me also, Mrs. Galeva - if you know - what is the duty of the
9 police when it learns about a death? Does it have any obligation to
10 immediately inform anyone?
11 A. Yes, always. In a case such as this, the police has the
12 obligation to inform the duty public prosecutor. So it turns to the basic
13 public prosecutor to inform him that a death has occurred of a person.
14 Q. Tell me, then, who is in charge of all the obligations and the
15 procedure once the police informs the public prosecutor or the
16 investigating judge? Who then, if you were dealing with the criminal
17 procedure; and if you know, who is in charge of the subsequent actions?
18 A. Of course, once the police turns to the basic public prosecutor's
19 office or to the investigating judge, at the same moment, the obligation
20 of the police on that case ceases. Then there is a transfer of the
21 obligations towards the judicial bodies, in this case to the public
22 prosecutor's office.
23 Q. Thank you very much for this clarification.
24 Answering a previous question, you stated that among the materials
25 that you received from the state security, if I understood you well, were
1 included some analysis, a larger analysis report that contained
2 information also from the operative department. Do you remember having
3 said this answering to some of my questions this morning?
4 A. I think I mentioned that there was such a comprehensive analysis,
5 but I did not present any details as far as I recall. I know I said there
6 were numerous information by the bureau for security and
7 counter-intelligence, but I don't recall having explained the details of
8 this comprehensive analysis.
9 Q. So do you know generally, considering your long years of
10 experience in the ministry until the present day, what does the operative
11 department deal with?
12 A. This department is a unit part of the department for security and
13 counter-intelligence, and its main activities are to follow persons,
14 information, interception of telephone conversations. This is the
15 operative aspect of this work. This was quite present and included in
16 this comprehensive analysis done by the bureau for security, the UBK,
17 which includes detailed information and data about concrete events.
18 Q. Very well. Tell me, when you were gathering the materials, did
19 you address this part of the MOI, asking them to provide you some
21 A. Of course. I turned to the bureau for security and
22 counter-intelligence, concretely, and at the first place with the director
23 of this bureau. He gave me some materials which encompassed the whole
24 period of the conflict, and he gave me materials which pertain to
25 Ljuboten. Previously, I had received similar materials or the same
1 materials also in that -- which I received from Mr. Goran Mitevski.
2 These were materials from the operative unit,
3 intercepts. I think I also mentioned that these were conversations of
4 people brought in with their associates or collaborators or people which
5 provided information, informants about the events.
6 On the basis --
7 Q. Just a moment.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask the interpreters, maybe
9 it has the same meaning, but the witness is speaking about the operative
10 techniques, and we keep seeing "operational" instead of "operative" in the
11 transcript. I'm not sure whether is that difference in the language.
12 I would like to ask that it is stated as the witness is saying it.
13 Q. My apologies, Mrs. Galeva, because I saw that you used the same
14 word twice and it was interpreted differently, and I'm not sure whether it
15 is really proper. So please continue now.
16 So you received this material from the director, it contained
17 various information, and you wanted to add something now.
18 A. In terms of the operative technicians, I think we wanted to speak
19 a little bit more about this. As I mentioned, this is following persons,
20 events, and interception of telephone conversations. It is interesting
21 that this is all contained in the comprehensive information prepared by
22 the UBK, which gives an overview of this whole approach and it focuses on
23 Ljuboten which is very important.
24 On the basis of this operative information and on the basis of the
25 methods used by the operative technique, it was established that even
1 before the event happened, this was planned. Even names are mentioned of
2 some Albanians, who, at that time, were called commanders and who
3 organised and coordinated this whole action, this whole thing.
4 Furthermore, names of persons are mentioned from the village, from
5 Ljuboten who provide logistic support in any way possible to these
6 persons. Also mentioned is the manner of how this is to be done; some
7 material resources, funds --
8 Q. Very well. I was just interested to learn whether had you those
9 materials as well. Perhaps it is not necessary to go into details unless
10 my colleagues are interested in learning the findings you got there.
11 I'm interested now, considering that you had conversations with
12 everyone to worked in the MOI and who went to the SVR Skopje, and the
13 events took place in the region covered by the SVR Cair, did you have any
14 meetings or at least did you make efforts to meet with someone from that
16 A. I'm sorry. Does this pertain concretely on the process of
17 exhumation or about the whole materials that I was collecting?
18 Q. I am reminding of your task, to obtain all the information. So
19 with the people directly related to the exhumation was one thing, but my
20 question is dealing with your task as a whole, all the actions taken by
21 the bodies in relation to the Ljuboten case.
22 A. Most of these meetings were individual meetings, I have to
23 emphasise this, but I cannot exclude that there were a line of meetings.
24 A number of meetings were held, where these problems discussed and where
25 solutions for them were found.
1 Would you want me to enumerate them?
2 Q. We will go back to the question. My question before that was
3 whether you had any communication with any individual from the OVR Cair.
4 Did you go there, did anyone come to see, or did you or did you not have
5 such communication?
6 A. In view of the fact that on previous meetings that I had with
7 Mr. Petre Stojanovski as the assistant of the criminal police and
8 especially for the city of Skopje, he was in the best position to inform
9 me what was happening with OVR Cair. He was in regular contact with the
10 head of this OVR Cair, and this is the information I received from him.
11 On several occasions, he emphasised that he regretted that the
12 criminal police is, in effect, blocked to do its work due to many reasons;
13 one being the lack of cooperation on the part of the Albanian villagers.
14 As for getting information where the role of the police is being
15 looked into to and its participation in all of these events, when I speak
16 about the direct line of communication which he has with the head of OVR
17 Cair, also he told me on several occasions that he is contact with them,
18 that he is speaking with them, that a lot of efforts are being put into
19 that endů they go out in the field, to the site, people are summoned,
20 brought in and interviewed, but to no avail.
21 However, the overall impression was that because nothing could be
22 established was that this was a military operation that the police forces
23 were later included once the operation was over.
24 Q. Very well. You told me this already, but I wish to have a clear
25 answer at the end of the line.
1 Did you at any moment talk to the head of the OVR Cair and did you
2 meet him?
3 A. Yes. I made an attempt to do so. I spoke on telephone with the
4 head of OVR Cair, and I tried to set up a meeting with him. But even
5 during on our telephone conversation, he categorically refused, because he
6 said everything which he had to say was already said. All written
7 material was submitted; therefore, there is nothing outside of this which
8 he could add. And in addition, he asked me since, in effect, the Law on
9 Amnesty had been passed for all persons which took part in the conflict,
10 he asked me why are these efforts being made when everything seems to be
12 He asked me about the goals of what I was doing, since, in
13 effect, the Law on Amnesty had taken effect, why was this investigation
14 taking place at all. This was my conversation with him.
15 Q. Thank you. You mention some meetings. Tell us what sort of
16 meetings were they and could you remember how many such meetings took
17 place and who was present?
18 A. There was an interesting meeting. First, I know, when I started
19 dealing with this work, that there was a commission charged with working
20 and drafting information about the Ljuboten event, the president of which
21 was Director Goran Mitevski. However, one day, arriving in my office
22 where I worked, I found a lot of people, including the external legal
23 advisor Jordan Arsov, of the MOI, a former judge, who was following
24 processes of these kinds, topical ongoing issues; and since they were
25 already in my office and there were lots of people there, he presented
1 them to me, and he told me that this was a working group, a commission,
2 about war crimes. He presented to me the persons that were part of that
4 Q. Could you remember who were the persons present when you came to
5 your office?
6 A. As I already mentioned, advisor Jordan Arsov; the head of
7 forensics, Miroslav Uslinkovski; then Apostol, for whom I later learned
8 was the president of this commission, Apostol Stojanovski; then member of
9 this commission, a certain Igno Stojkov, I believe was his last name;
10 Atsanka [phoen], and I can't recall the last name; and a number of other
11 persons. Arsov said that they were from the Prosecution; however, I
12 cannot recall their names. There were several people from this body as
13 well, and Mr. Mitevski, Director Goran Mitevski, was also present at this
15 Q. Since you were introduced to one another, tell me, were you able
16 then -- so my first question is whether they were there alone, or did they
17 have some documents, and did they tell what you was the nature of that
19 A. My first impression when I entered the office was the following:
20 There was a large table stacked with documents, heaps of material, in
21 front of everyone. They were all writing something, taking notes about
22 this or that, and since I took -- I joined them somewhat later, during
23 which time the presentation happened, which I mentioned about with
24 Mr. Arsov and when he informed me what this commission was dealing with,
25 that this commission was working on the basis of applications sent by
1 inflicted, injured parties, Albanians and Macedonians, and that it
2 collects information of -- about the Ljuboten case.
3 They were here for a while, but it was a meeting that was probably
4 at the end or maybe an informal gathering. I know that they agreed on
5 some issues they were working on, which at that time I was not aware of, I
6 was not informed of, and then we were dismissed.
7 It was said that we now know each other; and if there is need, we
8 would then further establish contacts between us.
9 Q. Thank you. Tell me, was there any other time that you were
10 invited and asked about the materials that you had collected in the
11 fashion you described to the Chamber, collected from various bodies within
12 the MOI?
13 A. I was called on several occasions by the director, Goran Mitevski,
14 and by -- and by the minister. I was called in because the minister
15 wanted to know literally how the procedure is going on, the material that
16 was collected, the phase that we had reached.
17 Q. At a given moment, were you asked to show the documents that you
18 gathered; and if yes, when did this take place and whom did you show these
19 documents to?
20 A. This happened, first, by the director of the bureau for public
21 security, Mr. Goran Mitevski, who called me in one day and told me to come
22 with the material which I had collected, that I should come to his office.
23 When I came there, he was present. There were public prosecutors; Stavre
24 Dzikov; another Prosecutor, whose name escapes me; and another person who
25 I believe was presented as a judge, but I really cannot recall their
1 names; also the head of the criminal police, Spasen Sofevski.
2 I came with the materials I had collected. Until then, it was in
3 a register in a file in a chronological order.
4 I recall that the public prosecutor of the Republic took the file
5 and started going through it, started going through all the documents as
6 they were listed, and he was looking at them with the people who were
7 around them, either his deputies or judges or other assistants. They made
8 some comments about this, and I remember that they agreed with the
9 director that they talked about some documents.
10 And as they were shifting through them, they would read what this
11 document was about, and then they agreed or confirmed about that certain
12 document; who they would meet with, when they would meet with a person,
13 and so forth. They looked at it; they gave it back to me; and that until
14 the next time they called me in, I should continue my work because it
15 would be very useful if this material is enriched with additional
17 Q. Could you remember when did this meeting take place or roughly
19 A. This happened, I cannot recall the exact date, but it was either
20 the end of August or the beginning of September, around this time.
21 Q. Which year?
22 A. 2002.
23 Q. After that meeting, when you showed the prosecutors the collection
24 you managed to assemble, do you remember any other meeting related to the
25 materials that you gathered from the moment that you were assigned to this
1 duty until that time?
2 A. Other material?
3 Q. Another meeting. Was there any other meeting where you were asked
4 to bring the materials or to show them or to present it or whatever else,
5 anything related to the materials?
6 A. Sometime after this meeting, there was also a meeting in the
7 office of the minister; then I was told to go to the office and to bring
8 the whole material. This was after some time. In this period of time, I
9 collected additional materials. I enriched the file, and I was informed
10 that this was at the request of the public prosecutor of the Republic,
11 Mr. Stavre Dzikov. Again, the materials were listed in a chronological
12 order of events, and I brought there material to the office of the
14 Q. Who was in the minister's office when you arrive there?
15 A. As far as I can recall, the minister; two directors of the bureau
16 for public security and the bureau for security and counter-intelligence;
17 then the public prosecutor of the Republic. I cannot recall anyone else
18 being there.
19 Q. Were you then requested to do something; and if yes, what was it?
20 A. I brought in the whole material that had been collected and
21 established, and I recall that this material was taken by the public
22 prosecutor general. He superficially looked at it to know what it
23 contained, because there was also table of contents about what the
24 material contains.
25 I know that they spoke something with the minister and with the
1 directors, that material has already been requested by the Tribunal, and
2 that's why he is requesting this, which means that I understood this as
3 being the goal, that this whole material should be given to him. At the
4 same time, the minister charged me to make a copy of this material for him
5 and for the other two directors, which I did after a few days.
6 Q. And tell me, because I didn't understand well, was the entire
7 collection of materials that you assembled handed over to the public
8 prosecutor general?
9 A. Yes. While I was there he looked at it and that's when -- that's
10 how the conversation ended, that he should take it with him, that he
11 should study it in more depth.
12 Q. Tell me, please, Mrs. Galeva, at the beginning you explained that
13 there was a change of government, and that on the 1st of November you
14 needed to leave your office because other persons came to work in the
15 minister's cabinet.
16 After you handed over those materials to the public prosecutor
17 general and gave copies to the directors of the state and of public
18 security, until the date when you left the office, did you hear any
19 comment from anyone or any information related to the issues that you
20 gathered information in relation to; namely, the issue of responsibility
21 of the minister, who was in the village, who ordered the action, or
22 anything that was the subject of your interest when you gathered the
24 A. I'm sorry. Could you make the question a little more concrete?
25 Do you mean about information from the ministry or outside the ministry
1 which I had heard?
2 Q. You said that, on the 1st of November, you left your office. I'm
3 interested to learn whether any of your former superiors, any director,
4 minister, or anyone else, before you left the office, gave you any
5 information pertaining to your work.
6 A. I left my office on the 1st of November, 2002; although, as I had
7 clarified earlier, I remained on that position until 2003, but I was told
8 to leave and I had to leave my office.
9 With the coming of the new minister, many new transfers were made,
10 many employees were deployed on different work positions, and so forth.
11 What I can recall is that immediately prior to my departure, November it
12 was, 2002, I met with the director of the bureau for public security,
13 Goran Mitevski, who was already outgoing. And in a short conversation
14 with him, he mentioned and he gave me a very interesting information,
15 which he said, at any cost, he would leave the ministry but not until he
16 fulfilled one important obligation. That means that he received such an
17 obligation from the minister.
18 The ministry gave him a certain piece of information prepared by
19 the Ministry of Defence, by Mr. Buckovski, information that could really
20 help establish any issues, dilemmas; can help provide the answers to many
21 questions which until then had been very difficult to obtain; that the
22 epilogue of this whole information speaks loads about the fact that there
23 is no responsibility of the police forces as participants in this event;
24 and that it is, above all, a military operation. It was even mentioned --
25 an order of the president of the Republic was even mentioned.
1 Q. So my final question: Have you ever seen this information that
2 the Director Mitevski mentioned to you?
3 A. I personally have not seen this. This was a short conversation.
4 He just clarified how he obtained this information and what his task was,
5 that prior to his leaving he should give this over to the new minister or
6 to the new director of the bureau for public security.
7 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Galeva, for answering my questions.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my
9 examination of this witness.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well timed, Ms. Residovic. Thank you for
12 We, of course, must now adjourn. It's just on a quarter to 2.00.
13 We resume tomorrow at 9.00.
14 My I ask you to return tomorrow morning to continue the
15 questioning. The evidence will continue at 9.00 in the morning, and there
16 will be questions by other counsel at that time.
17 We adjourn now, to resume tomorrow.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of
20 February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.