Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8916

1 Tuesday, 5 February 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 Unfortunately, Judge Van den Wyngaert is not feeling well and is

8 unable to sit today. We hope that she'll be recovered enough to sit

9 tomorrow. Judge Thelin and I will continue to sit under Rule 15 bis.

10 Good afternoon, sir. May I remind you the affirmation you made at

11 the beginning of your evidence still applies.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

16 Examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stojkov.

18 Yesterday we were reviewing documents and you clarified them. The

19 documents that you believe you saw during your stay at the OVR Cair and

20 that you remember their contents and that you copied some of them. Do you

21 remember that we discussed this towards the end of yesterday's evidence?

22 A. Yes, I remember.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

24 hand the set of documents to the witness again so that we can continue the

25 questioning.

Page 8917

1 Q. I will ask you, Mr. Stojkov, to find the document in tab 12 in

2 this set. That is the document P257 and that is an Official Note, number

3 1187, from the Mirkovci police station.

4 In the second paragraph of this Official Note it states: "The

5 detainees were examined by the ambulance medical team headed by

6 Gjorgi Karamanovski MD and some light injuries were established but the

7 doctor said there was no need for any of the persons to be transferred to

8 a health centre or a hospital."

9 Tell me, Mr. Stojkov, when you see this document, during the

10 examination, during your examining of the analytics documents in the OVR

11 Cair, did you see this document maybe?

12 A. As I said in my previous statements, all documents dated of the

13 12th - I'm talking about Official Notes - and a few days before the 12th,

14 perhaps a week after, which were accessible to us at the moment, we looked

15 at them, we read them, and we made copies of a majority of them.

16 Q. Could you please look now at the document in tab 13. That is

17 Exhibit P160.

18 Again, it is submitted by Surlov Dragan. And I believe you stated

19 yesterday that he was the person who told you that he was the duty officer

20 on the 12th of August in Mirkovci police station.

21 Tell me, do you remember when you are reading the contents of this

22 note, do you feel that you had the opportunity to see this Official Note

23 as well?

24 A. This note, in view -- in particular that it is from police station

25 Mirkovci, signed by my colleague Dragan, gives a chronological overview of

Page 8918

1 events related to that day. Naturally, I am aware of this text, because I

2 have read it, whether in this Official Note or in other individual notes

3 about this event, I don't recall, but I am aware of this text.

4 Q. I will kindly ask you now, Mr. Stojkov, to look at the document in

5 tab 14. That is Exhibit P106, and that is a report signed by the chief of

6 the OVR Cair on the 12th of August, 2001.

7 In the last paragraph of this document, it is stated that the

8 authorised officer of the Cair police station at 1545 brought the person

9 Fetahovski Dilaver, born on 24th of April, 1981, from the village of

10 Ljuboten, and his identification number is noted in this document: "In

11 poor physical health, the individual was found on the street in the

12 village of Radisani where he had been accosted by the locals. He was

13 transferred to a Skopje city hospital by an ambulance car."

14 Do you see it written here?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I will ask to you look at the document in tab 15. That is P157--

17 Exhibit P157. It is again a report from the OVR Cair, and please look now

18 at the last paragraph in this report where it is stated: "During the

19 interview they stated that they received at approximately 1330 hours a

20 call for the transport of passengers from the settlement of Radisani

21 towards Skopje after which they headed in the direction of Radisani. When

22 they arrived at the last bus-stop of JSB 57, in the village of Radisani,

23 they were accosted and stopped by a large group of citizens who threw

24 themselves at them. They were pulled out and brought over to Cair police

25 station owing to the swift intervention of authorised officials of Cair

Page 8919

1 police station, while their motor vehicles were damaged by the citizens at

2 the scene and were thereafter towed to the Cair police station for further

3 procedure."

4 First of all, let me ask you: Do you remember whether, when

5 examining the documents in the analytics department, you saw this report

6 or reports of similar contents?

7 A. All reports from that period I saw them with my own eyes and I

8 read them; and, as I said, a majority of them, we copied and took with us.

9 This last paragraph which you read, when we asked about the police

10 officers who took these people over in the police station, I knew that the

11 police station should have taken further measures to establish whether the

12 people have been injured, whether they're vehicles have been damaged and

13 so forth. This is a regular task and obligation. It was not our current

14 obligation at that moment. These are measures which they were due to

15 undertake as police bodies.

16 Q. Thank you for this clarification. I'm interested in another issue

17 in relation to this both reports that we read because they both speak

18 about the fact that citizens accosted and attacked villagers. If you had

19 seen these documents, does this reflect your knowledge from that time and

20 does it corroborate the information that you received from your colleagues

21 from Cair about the events of that date?

22 A. As I said yesterday, I could personally see that in front of the

23 police station Cair and upwards towards the village of Radisani, there

24 were a large number of persons, a lot of people, who had various objects

25 in their hand, were yelling out various things. Most probably these

Page 8920

1 people were upset by the events of the previous days. The small number of

2 police officers, having in mind that -- that the police officers were also

3 on various check-points and carried out their regular duties of patrolling

4 and other regular daily tasks --

5 Q. Very well. Thank you. In relation to this, tell me, when you

6 spoke to the chief Krstevski, did he ever mention to you whether he

7 personally or anyone else saw that the police took some measures outside

8 of the scope of its responsibility, whether he had seen actually that the

9 police was beating those villagers?

10 A. In the discussions he told me, as I previously said, when we met

11 he said that on that day, on the 12th of August, there was great movement;

12 as he described it, chaos. There was a small number of police officers

13 that were deployed and were carrying out their tasks, but in this concrete

14 discussion the head Krstevski did not say that any of our colleagues used

15 physical force unless this was absolutely necessary, unless they were

16 attacked. However, he did not say that there was need to resort to

17 physical force.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. Please look at the document after tab 16.

19 This is Exhibit P154. And the question is simply: When you look at this

20 document, tell me just do you remember this document and whether you had

21 maybe seen or taken this document with you?

22 A. Yes, I remember this document, because it's a report and, as I

23 said, all reports from that period were read and were taken with us

24 because in addition to giving a chronological overview on events, it

25 provides a lot of information about people, their names and personal data,

Page 8921

1 which was of concrete interest of us. I remember this document because

2 weapons are mentioned, that weapons were brought into the police station

3 Mirkovci.

4 Q. Would you please look at the document after tab 17. And tell me,

5 before you look at this report, you stated this several times already but

6 I would like to ask you now if you are able to state more specifically.

7 What were you looking for there? Were you investigating the events? Or

8 were you trying to find something else in the documents that you were

9 reviewing?

10 A. Our tasks was not to chronologically compile these documents and

11 bring them but to come to information that there were aggrieved or injured

12 parties, whether by police forces, civilian forces or by the other side,

13 the terrorists. We were looking for persons or, rather, reported

14 injuries, injured persons, destroyed facilities.

15 Q. Do you know when this situation calmed down and what actually

16 happened to the citizens who -- villagers who started from the village of

17 Ljuboten towards Skopje?

18 A. I don't know personally what happened on that day because I was in

19 Radisani and around the police station where I live. I don't know what

20 happened on that day, but later, in my discussions with my colleagues, and

21 from materials which I saw in police station Cair, I learned that

22 enforcement was called in first, enforcements of police officers who

23 arrived sometime in the afternoon and sometime during the evening the

24 secure return of the population from the Ljuboten village was secured

25 with, and I think this was done.

Page 8922

1 Q. Thank you. I asked you now to look at the document behind tab 17.

2 That is Exhibit P155. And since you just explained that you learned later

3 and also through some of the documents that you reviewed, tell me please

4 whether this is one of the documents that corroborates what you said

5 about, when answering my previous question?

6 A. I don't remember this document. It is possible that I have read

7 it but perhaps I did not pay due attention and at that moment, perhaps it

8 was not in the document, but I do not remember this document as such, but

9 I know of this information.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you. I will kindly ask you now to look at the

11 document after tab 20. That is Exhibit P147. When discussing the issues

12 at the OVR Cair or when reviewing the documents, have you seen a document

13 indicating that, on that date, the identity of the MP Fatmir Etemi was

14 established?

15 A. I saw this Official Note then. I also know the text therein. The

16 colleagues stopped the MP Etemi, a Member of Parliament at the time, and

17 after they were brought in and interviewed, these people were set free.

18 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Stojkov, apart from the documents that we

19 discussed yesterday, where there was information that on the 10th, on the

20 date when the mine was planted under the army vehicle, people were seen,

21 members of the NLA or maybe not members but armed individuals wearing

22 black uniforms were seen entering the village. Did you notice any

23 documents from which it could have been seen that those armed persons are

24 still seen in the village?

25 A. In the materials which we saw in police station Cair, as I already

Page 8923

1 said, say that even before the 12th of August, people in black uniforms

2 with arms were noted moving in and around the village. I think there were

3 also documents after the event that there is still movement of armed

4 persons dressed in black. It could not be established whether these were

5 uniforms but it is said that they were dressed in black and that they are

6 armed. I'm speaking now about after the 12th, perhaps this was the 14th,

7 15th, 13th ...

8 Q. I will kindly ask you now to look first at the document after tab

9 21. That is 65 ter document number 299. This is a telegram that you

10 testified about as having seen them but not having copied them. And then

11 please look at the document after tab 22; that is the Exhibit P145. But

12 let's focus first on the one after tab 21. The document bears the date

13 13th of August, 2001.

14 A. This is a telegram which clarifies that relevant services are

15 informed of the movement of persons in uniforms that have been noted.

16 Q. I will ask you now to look at the document after tab 22. As I

17 said, that is Exhibit P145, a document dated, again, 13th of August, 2001.

18 A. Yes. I know the text of this document, which is an Official Note.

19 It comes after the telegram. I said already that we did not take

20 telegrams with us. However, Official Notes which spoke of events after

21 the 12th, we read most of them and we copied and took them with us.

22 Q. Would you please have a look at the document after tab 23. That

23 is 65 ter document 512. It is, again, a document, a report registered

24 events and measures undertaken in connection with the operative action

25 Ramno, dated 13th of August, 2001.

Page 8924

1 And tell me, please, whether this document again corroborates what

2 you stated before, that when reviewing the documents you actually saw that

3 after the 12th, armed individuals were noticed in the village?

4 A. Yes. This document is information but information obtained from

5 army positions which was sent to the police station, which then informed

6 other bodies, or, rather, submitted a report of the measures that are to

7 be taken. This is why I said that I know that in most of the documents

8 which we checked, documents related to after the event, provided

9 information that there was movement of armed persons in the area above

10 Ljuboten.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Say this document is an

12 information received from the army positions. Is that so?

13 A. Yes, from the army positions.

14 Q. Would you please look at the document after tab 24. That is

15 Exhibit P124.

16 This document is probably one of those that you testified about,

17 that were those on the basis of which you testified before this Court that

18 you had seen documents speaking of presence of armed individuals in the

19 village even after the 12th. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes. This is information from one of the police point from a

21 military conscript given by name, that uniformed persons have been noted.

22 Whether this report I read or copied, I cannot claim. But I said that

23 there were certain documents which provide information that there is

24 movement of armed persons.

25 Q. And now, after having seen these documents dated on the 13th, your

Page 8925

1 comment was that some of the information arrived from the army positions

2 while others arrived from police check-points, so you had the information

3 from both the army sources, received at the analytics as well as the

4 police sources which were also found in the analytics department at the

5 OVR Cair?

6 A. In this period, the army of the Republic of Macedonia had its own

7 positions. I don't know exactly where they were, but towards the border

8 to Kosovo, above Ljuboten village. I don't exactly know where. The army

9 had its own positions, the police had its own check-points on the main

10 roads, streets, above the settlement of Radisani, towards the village of

11 Ljubanci, towards the Ljuboten road. These are all places where the

12 police had its check-points.

13 The cooperation between army and police was carried out by way of

14 information. The army informed the police of all the activities of the

15 terrorists towards its own and I believe this was the same case vice

16 versa; there must be some kind of coordination.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Would you please look at the document

18 after tab 25. That is an Official Note dated 13th of August, 2001, coming

19 from the Mirkovci police station, Official Note number 11.91, subject is

20 assistance provided to the emergency medical squad to transport a detained

21 person to the city hospital.

22 Considering the task that you had, as you explained it before this

23 Court, would you please tell me whether you had seen this document and

24 whether you had taken this document with you, if you had seen it?

25 A. This is one of the basic documents which we looked at and took

Page 8926

1 with us because this is -- it provides information on persons taken from

2 the police station and taken to the city hospital.

3 Q. Thank you. Would you please look now at the document after tab

4 26. That is Exhibit P259. This Official Note is, again, related to the

5 same person that requested medical assistance and to whom this medical

6 assistance was rendered.

7 Was this a document that you had found and, given the nature of

8 the task that you had, a document that you retained?

9 A. Yes. This is a follow-up information about previous request of

10 approval from superiors in the duty centre for this person to be

11 transferred into the city hospital.

12 So I do know this document.

13 Q. Would you please look now at the document after tab 27. That is

14 Exhibit P400, Official Note number 1206.

15 Again, submitted by Surlov Dragan, who informs that from the

16 Mirkovci police station medical squad was called, ambulance car, and that

17 the persons Adem Ametovski, Mevludin Bajrami, Nevaip Bajrami, and Ismail

18 Ramadani were taken to the Skopje city hospital.

19 Have you seen this document and is that a document that you

20 remember as having copied for the performance of your task?

21 A. Yes. As I said previously, all documents that list information

22 about persons which were in the police station - and here we have a

23 situation also where medical assistance was requested for them - are

24 documents which we read. This one I know I read and I made a copy of it,

25 which I took with me.

Page 8927

1 Q. Would you please now look at the document after tab 28. That is

2 Official Note number 1209, and it is Exhibit P258.

3 Do you remember, Mr. Stojkov, this document?

4 A. I have most probably seen this document, but I think it is not

5 part of the documents which I took with me because here it is only

6 generally stated that medical assistance was called in regarding detained

7 persons but it does not point to which persons and the reasons why the

8 medical assistance was called in.

9 Q. Would you please look now at the document after tab 30. That is

10 Exhibit P54.045.

11 Tell me, please, do you remember from that time having seen this

12 document and, considering the task that you had, was it of relevance for

13 you and did you copy that one as well?

14 A. Yes. As I said, we took this document because of the first part

15 of the text contained therein. Previously, we knew that weapons had been

16 brought in and seized. We were interested about information on the

17 persons. I remember this document and I know that I took this -- a copy

18 of this document with me.

19 Q. Would you please now look at the next document after tab 31 and

20 tell me - that is 65 ter 151 - tell me whether you treated this document

21 in the same way as you explained with regards to the one before?

22 A. Yes, the same applies. All documents which could contain any

23 information with names of persons or personal data such as date of birth

24 or where we could see that something was missing or is not just right, we

25 made copies of this and we took it with us.

Page 8928

1 Q. Before asking you some questions of general nature related to

2 several documents, I will ask you to please just look at the document

3 after tab 32. That is Exhibit P261 and that is an Official Note, number

4 537, submitted by Blagoja Toskovski. And subject is report on a deceased

5 person.

6 A. I know this note, because it deals with a person which had

7 previously been taken by the emergency ambulance and taken to the city

8 hospital. Since this is an information stating that the person deceased

9 in the hospital, this is one of the documents which we took with us.

10 Q. Mr. Stojkov, a number of documents before as well as this document

11 indicated that several persons were taken to a hospital and that one of

12 them died.

13 Yesterday you spoke to us about an event involving a

14 three-year-old girl and her father and you state that you had went to the

15 hospital. Why did you go then to the hospital? What was the purpose of

16 your visit there?

17 A. I went -- I was the only one from my working group who went to the

18 hospital together with two persons from police forensics. The goal was to

19 document this case… of course, we wanted to have a photograph of the girl

20 in order to establish the circumstances. I took my colleagues from

21 forensics to photograph this girl and to pick up the bullet which was

22 taken from him [as interpreted], which needed to be further processed.

23 I was also there to show them which vehicle needed to be processed from a

24 forensic point of view, and I went to see the girl in view of the fact

25 that this was a three-year-old girl and --

Page 8929

1 Q. Very well. When the issue was about the three-year-old girl, you

2 went to hospital. When you saw this document, this report about the death

3 of Atulla Qaili, did you go to the hospital?

4 A. We did not go to hospital because the information was that death

5 occurred on the 13th of August. The set-up of the working group and

6 taking over of the Ljuboten case came six months later. Regardless,

7 though, our job was not to collect medical information from the hospital.

8 There were other services charged with that task, most frequently, medical

9 documents were received from aggrieved injured parties after their

10 kidnapping, for example, or after they were set free, or, in the case of

11 people deceased, these were documents received from their families or from

12 relevant services.

13 Therefore, we did not go to the hospital in order to investigate

14 or to document a case.

15 Q. Mr. Stojkov, you stated now: We were not investigating the

16 events, that was a task or other services were charged with that.

17 Could you please explain it more precisely? For instance, if this

18 was happening in Cair what were the bodies that needed to investigate that

19 event if such event took place within the territory they covered?

20 A. Generally speaking, in the case of a homicide, the body in charge

21 is that where -- located on the territory where this act was committed.

22 Whenever a death occurs, an internal affairs body is informed or the

23 police station which then informs the duty centre, gives information by

24 way of telephone first, and then the duty centre reports this to the

25 public prosecutor's office and the investigating judge. Then the police

Page 8930

1 station, on the territory of which the crime was committed or where death

2 occurred, it could be not only by way of murder, also by an accident, then

3 engage homicide inspectors and police forensics.

4 Q. So if I understood properly what you have just stated, your working

5 group was not tasked with taking over the duties of bodies that are tasked

6 with such competences by the law. Have I understood you properly?

7 A. We were not authorised, not -- nor skilled to investigate the

8 cause of death of any individual.

9 Our task was to obtain basic documents that will point out to what

10 happened. Once we documented a case, i.e., we gathered all the documents,

11 or as I stated yesterday, once we received all the written documents, be

12 they records of on-site investigations, photographs, forensic or other

13 material, and, if it was possible for us, we found someone from the injured

14 parties or their family members, we would establish contact if that was

15 possible given the fact that on many occasions we were unable to establish

16 contact and even if we did we were turned down, and it was then that we

17 would officially interview the person. This is the procedure we followed.

18 Q. Very well Mr. Stojkov, I understand this. You did not go to the

19 hospital because that person has already died and those injured persons

20 were probably not in the hospital any longer after six months.

21 But tell me please after you had read this Official Note that some

22 person that was previously at the police station was then taken to a

23 hospital and then died, did you raise this issue with your colleagues at

24 the OVR Cair when you saw this document? Did you ask them whether they

25 did what you are now saying that they should have, whether they informed

Page 8931

1 someone?

2 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Person was taken from police

3 station Mirkovci. We talked to some of our colleagues who did not want to

4 speak on the record, and this was their right; I could not force them to

5 talk to me. We were interested in what exactly happened. There's

6 official information about the death of the person, so we were interested

7 to know whether measures that needed to be taken were taken.

8 As far as I understood, they said they informed the duty centre,

9 the public prosecutor's office. Once this is done, the obligation fall

10 upon other bodies.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Maybe we should take a note that this is

12 an Official Note number 537.

13 And now I would like to ask to you to look at the document after

14 tab 33. Considering your previous evidence, I do not expect that this was

15 a topic of your interest, but I will ask you again -- and that is

16 Exhibit P46.16. So I'm asking you whether you saw this document and

17 whether you remembered it?

18 A. To be honest, this is information for the basic public

19 prosecutor's office. I don't remember whether I saw it or not. But it

20 does mention Official Note, which I think we saw previously, which informs

21 about a deceased person. This is information to the basic public

22 prosecution office. At the moment when I was looking at it, I was

23 probably thinking that this was not of interest to our working group,

24 because this is information to the basic public prosecutor's office about

25 a deceased person.

Page 8932

1 Q. Thank you. So, you can agree with me that from the moment that

2 the Official Note was produced on the 14th of August, when the police

3 received the information about the death, if this is the date of sending

4 the information to the OJO -- what does OJO stand for, can you please tell

5 me what it stands for, OJO Skopje?

6 A. Basic public prosecutor's office.

7 Q. So on that same date that information was forwarded by the police

8 to the basic public prosecutor's office. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes. According to this document, it is immediately reported to

10 the basic public prosecutor's office. The previous note informs of the

11 death of this person, according to the dates, it follows that information

12 to the public prosecutor's office was sent immediately.

13 Q. Since you stated some general affairs within the realm of your

14 knowledge, could you tell me what does the police do when they inform the

15 public prosecutor and the investigating judge? Whose orders does it take

16 in order to take any further actions?

17 A. Generally speaking, after a crime or event is reported to the

18 public prosecutor's office, all police measures are also reported taking

19 before and after the event; and after the public prosecutor's office is

20 informed police bodies are put at the disposal of the public prosecutor's

21 office.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you please look now at the document after tab

23 34. That is Exhibit number 1D69, and that is an Official Note that --

24 that states that the inspection team at the SVR Skopje, police forensics

25 department, took papillary lines of unknown deceased person from the

Page 8933

1 mortuary in Butel in order to establish the identity of such person.

2 Considering what you stated before, does it mean that the police

3 reacted after it was requested to take some action?

4 A. This has most probably been done at the request of the

5 investigating judge or the basic public prosecutor's office. Some --

6 someone from the forensics unit wanted to establish the identity of this

7 person. Most probably this was done at the request of the investigating

8 judge.

9 Q. The document itself does not state that such request came from the

10 investigating judge or the public prosecutor. So, on the basis of what

11 you do you draw that conclusions that it was most probably done upon the

12 request of an investigating judge?

13 A. In cases such as this, when the identity of the person is unknown,

14 and the public prosecution and surely the investigating judge also, it

15 is -- it is natural that these measures have been taken. As I said, after

16 these two bodies have been informed, then police undertakes measures which

17 are requested by these two bodies.

18 Q. Thank you. If you remember, the information sent to the public

19 prosecutor's office was sent on the 14th of August. This document bears

20 the date 20th of August. So does this fact corroborate again that your

21 surmise is right, that this was done after the body was informed?

22 A. If we look at the date, the 14th, it was preceded with information

23 to the prosecution and probably the investigating judge. Therefore, this

24 is a request surely from the investigating judge to establish the identity

25 of this person.

Page 8934

1 Q. Thank you. Would you now please look at the document after tab

2 38. That is Exhibit P490 and that is a report, and as far as I

3 understood, you stated that you copied almost all reports from that time

4 and took them with you.

5 Tell me, please, do you remember this report?

6 A. Yes, I remember this report, because, as we can see, there are

7 handwritten notes and there have been some changes made to it.

8 Q. This report speaks of some other activities that took place on the

9 14th. Tell me, please, does this report reflect what you heard from the

10 chief Krstevski, that on that date, it was not possible for the inspection

11 team, on-site investigation team, to enter the village?

12 A. Yes. In my discussions with Chief Krstevski, I was informed that

13 two attempts were made to enter the village after -- the day after the

14 event, after the 12th of August, teams of police forensics and

15 investigating judges, medical teams, forensic medicine were set up in

16 order to go into the village, in view of the information that persons will

17 be buried or have been buried. I cannot tell you precisely at this

18 moment.

19 Q. Would you please now look at the document after tab 40. That is

20 Exhibit P149. And that is operational information, bearing the number

21 540, from the 15th of August.

22 My first question is: Do you remember from that time, having seen

23 this document?

24 A. I don't remember having seen this document, but it was interesting

25 that in that period there were several pieces of information that the

Page 8935

1 persons of Albanian ethnicity who were deceased were not reported. Their

2 death was not reported, and that they still figure as living in the

3 records. That was interesting. But I have not seen this report with my

4 own eyes.

5 Q. Considering that the task of your group was to follow the traces

6 of the injured or aggrieved parties and to find out what was done with

7 regards to them, whether it was torture, ill-treatment, or property damage

8 to the aggrieved parties, would you please tell me now whether what you

9 heard about the practice that the Albanian population failed to report the

10 deaths, did it have any influence on the work of your working group?

11 A. As I said previously, contacts with persons, be it from Macedonian

12 or Albanian or other ethnicity, were difficult to establish. There was

13 lack of trust among every one of them. It was even difficult to find some

14 persons. We had some information about them, but when we tried to reach

15 them, they were either away, abroad, they were not there, perhaps some of

16 them were even dead, but we did not have concrete information to that end.

17 Q. I will kindly ask you to look now at the document after tab 42.

18 That is 65 ter 476.

19 Tell me, please, do you remember this document?

20 A. According to the date, I can see that this document -- I don't

21 remember this document, but I know that there were still attacks from

22 armed persons towards police points and army positions towards civilian

23 houses.

24 Q. If a house was set on fire, would you have been interested in that

25 as well?

Page 8936

1 A. Yes. Among the other cases which we worked on, we worked also on

2 houses, civilian houses, religious facilities, factories, state

3 facilities, and all damages incurred to them on any basis.

4 Q. And when reviewing the documents in the analytics of OVR Cair were

5 you able to find such materials stating that after that event, houses in

6 the village were set on fire?

7 A. All the materials well dealt with damage to facilities of any

8 kind, we surely looked at. But unless there was a report from the owner,

9 from the injured party, we would not take any measures, because, as I

10 said, the procedure was to report this to the police station. If we speak

11 about a house set on fire, then surely we investigated this and we created

12 a file on this event.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. Would you now please look at the document

14 after tab 44. That is Exhibit P135.

15 Tell me, please, whether you remember this document or maybe this

16 is something that you did not remember, when reviewing the documents at

17 the OVR Cair?

18 A. The document states what I said earlier about an information about

19 houses in the village set on fire, but there are no such reports in the

20 police station. Therefore, I know this as information, I know it, I've

21 read it, I have seen it. However, I could not have undertaken measures

22 because they were not reported in the police station.

23 Q. Would you please now look at the document after tab 45. That is

24 Exhibit P50.010.

25 Do you remember having seen this information?

Page 8937

1 A. Yes, I remember, because this is a collection of -- of a

2 chronological overview of all events from 10th to 13th, and they were --

3 there are a lot of information contained therein. I know that I made copy

4 of this information and that I took it with me.

5 Q. Thank you. You testified yesterday that in the conversations with

6 your colleagues or with the chief of the OVR Cair you heard that it was

7 difficult for them to establish anything, because the villagers from

8 Ljuboten did not want to contact the police. Do you remember that you

9 spoke about that?

10 A. Yes, I remember. I know there were some contacts even with some

11 persons from the village, but when more concrete information was requested

12 or when statements were requested, these same persons, due to pressure or

13 other reasons, did not want to contact or to have contacts with police

14 bodies.

15 Q. You stated that you were reviewing those numerous documents

16 pertaining to the month of August because you were mainly interested in

17 the events in and around the village of Ljuboten so that you could see

18 whether there were aggrieved parties and whether you could obtain some

19 information about them.

20 I would like to ask you now to look at the document after tab 48.

21 That is a document that is Exhibit P104, and it was produced on the 15th

22 of November, 2001. Or the 16th of November. I believe that this would be

23 the correct date, although in the English translation, 15th November is

24 noted, but it is not really that important.

25 Would you please now look at this document, whether the contents

Page 8938

1 of this document correspond to what you testified about. Is that what

2 your colleagues were speaking about or is it related to some different

3 situation?

4 A. I have not seen this document in the course of my work, but

5 according to the text, which I can see now, it is not to be excluded that

6 this is about a contact from the village board with the aim of obtaining

7 some more concrete information from him. As I can see, this person first

8 agreed to help and assist the work of the police but then later did not

9 want to provide any help or any information.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Stojkov, when you made copies of the

11 documents that you were interested in and those who were able to provide

12 you with information related to the task of your group, to reach the

13 aggrieved parties and their families so that they could give you some

14 information about the event, tell me, please, what did you with those

15 documents once you came back to your office?

16 A. Since we had copies of the documents, we made case files in two

17 copies; therefore, immediately we made yet another copy of these documents

18 and we put it next to our case files. We had a short working meeting

19 about what we should be doing next, what should we do as a follow-up to

20 the information that we had gathered. This is the regular procedure.

21 Q. Considering that you had not received any information from your

22 colleagues at Cair on how to contact any aggrieved parties because they

23 told you that they were unwilling to talk to them, would you tell me now

24 what did you do in your group? Did you give up or were you still willing

25 to do something?

Page 8939

1 A. We talked about this and we saw that quite some time had elapsed

2 from the event and that there were no reports on any injured persons. Our

3 colleagues from the police station in OVR Cair tried but did not establish

4 contacts with persons. So we, among us, agreed, through our contacts to

5 try to get in touch with someone from the village who could help us find

6 the persons listed in the documents.

7 Q. And did you succeed in that, in establishing contact with someone

8 from the village or with some of the aggrieved persons?

9 A. To be quite honest, I had some contacts with some persons from the

10 village. I have -- I maintained these contacts with these persons who

11 were then and are still now my friends. But there was no possibility for

12 these persons to help us in any way, because, as I said yesterday, both

13 Macedonians and Albanians were afraid of everything that was happening at

14 that time.

15 Q. Considering that explaining your method of work, you stated that,

16 in addition to collecting these written materials and writing some

17 Official Note about any interviews with the aggrieved persons and their

18 families, what was then the method that you used in this case?

19 A. The methodology of our working group entails that, after the

20 return from the site, or after an interview, or something is noted, an

21 Official Note is made on what has been done in those few days. In the

22 Ljuboten case, the case file of Ljuboten includes our visit to the police

23 station Mirkovci and Cair. An Official Note was made stating that on

24 those particular days we were there, that we established contacts with the

25 chiefs and all of these materials are put in the case file.

Page 8940

1 This is the regular practice.

2 Q. Considering that not even your personal contacts and efforts to

3 arrive at some information or more details, whether those persons whose

4 names you found there were really victims or not, tell me, please, what

5 you did later about that case. Was something done at all about it, and

6 what was that period of time when you reached the conclusion that you were

7 unable to get any further information?

8 A. As I said, the case was put next to the other case files with a

9 note in our log-books that we should continue to try to find some of the

10 aggrieved persons. I know that in that period, I believe

11 Katica Jovanovska from analytics also was preparing some information about

12 the event in Ljuboten. There is a possibility that some of these

13 materials or copies of the materials were also left with her for further

14 processing.

15 Other measures were not taken because the public was already being

16 informed that there was going to be exhumation of the persons in Ljuboten

17 and that police were -- forensics were going to work on this. So we left

18 it at that, to wait for the exhumation, to see the report of the

19 expertise, and then to continue working.

20 Q. Did you, the working group and you yourself, at that time, when

21 you concluded that you needed to wait for the results that could provide

22 additional indicators or additional possibilities for investigation, so

23 did you ever discuss the results of your work -- work on this case, on

24 other previous cases, did you discuss it in any meetings, and, in

25 particular, was there any communication with the public prosecutor's

Page 8941

1 office?

2 A. There were several meetings. On one of the bigger meetings where

3 Mr. Apostol Stojanovski and I were called was at the office of the

4 director at the time, Mr. Goran Mitevski. Others present there were a

5 colleague from forensics - I don't remember his name; Katica Jovanovska.

6 Mr. Stavre Dzikov, public prosecutor general at the time; and Mr. Jordan

7 Arsov. This was a working meeting which we were called to attend with a

8 view of finalising the work in progress.

9 We came to this meeting with a lot of materials, other materials

10 were also brought in, most -- and we were discussing about the collection

11 of these materials, processing of these materials, and what needs to be

12 done before they're handed over to the public prosecution. Whether

13 criminal charges and reports were needed by-- to be prepared by the police

14 and so forth. This was a working meeting and we were discussing our work.

15 Q. Was that the only meeting that you attended?

16 A. I attended several meetings, but if I understood your question

17 correctly, you were asking about meetings with the public prosecutor. I

18 attended other meetings, but in terms of meetings with the public

19 prosecution, in addition to this one where Stavre Dzikov attended, we had

20 an additional meeting with our colleagues from the public prosecutor's

21 office. Myself, Mr. Goran Mitevski, Mr. Apostol Stojanovski, and

22 Mr. Uslinkovski from police forensics attended this meeting and two other

23 colleagues from the public prosecutor's office whose name escapes me at

24 the moment. I know that near the end of the meeting -- this was a lengthy

25 meeting and we were discussing a lot of the material, each case was being

Page 8942

1 looked into and we tried to coordinate our efforts.

2 I remember that Ms. Sofija Galeva entered near the end of the

3 meeting, this is the first time I met her and I learned that she was

4 working at the office of the minister. She was also interested in our

5 materials. I cannot remember whether she too was working on some of this,

6 but she sat down for a short while. They were talking with the director,

7 Goran Mitevski, and some people from forensics about these materials.

8 Q. If I understood you well yesterday, when you finished, when you

9 thought that you done everything that you could, that you had gathered all

10 the documents that you were able to gather, you then made a list,

11 submitted that list with the analytics and then the analytics forwarded

12 this to the body that was in charge of producing the criminal report.

13 Tell me, please, with regards to this Ljuboten case, did you

14 develop this in the same way, and was it also processed using the same

15 method used by your working group?

16 A. Our practice was the following: Once a case, a case file is

17 sufficiently processed according to our view, that is to say that we had

18 gathered enough material in order to prepare a criminal report, we sent

19 this material with a note. Two copies of this were sent to the analytics

20 department, which processed this material analytically and then forwarded

21 one copy to the public prosecutor's office or relevant bodies, police

22 stations or OVRs, who prepared the criminal report, which they then

23 forward to the public prosecutor's office where it is turned into an

24 indictment.

25 We had many unfinished cases among which -- including the Ljuboten

Page 8943

1 file. To this day, I see this as an unfinished file. I told you the

2 reasons for this. I told you why this was so. We were not able to

3 establish contact with aggrieved persons and there were no persons who

4 reported anything. There were no injured persons. Therefore, things were

5 left as they were.

6 The exhumation then followed, and when this was done, we were not

7 allowed to look at these documents; I don't know the reasons for this.

8 And afterwards, the working group stopped working and was disbanded at the

9 beginning of 2003.

10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Stojkov.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have concluded my

12 examination of this witness.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.

14 We will have our first break now and resume at 4.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

19 three documents as Defence exhibit, documents that I showed to the

20 witness. I had a discussion during the break with my learned colleague

21 the Prosecutor and as far as I understood, he would not object.

22 Those documents are 65 ter 299; that is in tab 21. Then 65 ter

23 document 512; in tab 23. And 65 ter document 476; in tab 42.

24 JUDGE PARKER: There's no objection, Mr. Dobbyn.

25 MR. DOBBYN: No, there's not, Your Honours.

Page 8944

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Those three documents will each

2 separately be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 299 will become

4 Exhibit 1D288. 65 ter 512 will become Exhibit 1D289. And 65 ter 476 will

5 become Exhibit 1D290.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 Mr. Apostolski, are there any questions of this witness?

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

9 The Defence of Johan Tarculovski has no questions for this witness.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

11 Mr. Dobbyn.

12 MR. DOBBYN: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Dobbyn:

14 Q. And good afternoon, Mr. Stojkov. My name is Gerard Dobbyn and I'm

15 representing the Office of the Prosecutor here. So following on from my

16 colleague Ms. Residovic I will be asking you some questions about the

17 matters that you have testified to so far.

18 MR. DOBBYN: And perhaps before we start, I do have some binders

19 that we prepared for this witness and this might be the best time to

20 distribute those.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


23 Q. And, Mr. Stojkov, I understand from your testimony that you

24 started working for the Ministry of Interior in 1991. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, this is correct.

Page 8945

1 Q. And from what you've said it appears that you have made some

2 pretty steady progress in your career. You started as an intern in 1991,

3 and you have the position that you do today. So would you agree that you

4 appear to have progressed quite smoothly throughout the Ministry of

5 Interior?

6 A. In the 16 and a half, 17 years that I have been in the service, it

7 is quite natural to go through the process of going from the lower

8 positions up the scale to higher positions.

9 Q. And prior to joining the military crimes working group in 2001,

10 you already had extensive investigative experience, didn't you?

11 A. As inspector, yes, in the operative segments.

12 Q. And you also testified to having had extensive specialised

13 training and courses that were run by other national police forces. Isn't

14 that correct?

15 A. This is correct. My training starts after some years of working

16 at the Ministry of Interior. The first training was in June 1999. I

17 started my employment in 1991. This means that I had to go through

18 certain parts of police work in order to get to a position where I should

19 get training for other areas.

20 Q. And in that training, I believe you described attending courses in

21 Germany and Britain, in the US and France and in Egypt. Is that right?

22 A. Except in Cairo, Egypt, there were also trainings in the Republic

23 of Macedonia.

24 Q. And some of the areas covered in these training courses included

25 investigating illicit drug trafficking, weapons of mass destruction,

Page 8946

1 radioactive weapons, and terrorism. Have I left anything out of that

2 list?

3 A. …some of the training courses included checking traffic and

4 uncovering illicit drugs and weapons trafficking. And, in addition to

5 this, the training in Egypt which was against terrorist actions.

6 Q. When you attended these training courses, did you take this

7 training seriously?

8 A. I think I have a serious approach to my work. Since this was

9 specialisation training which I need in the course of my work, I believe

10 that I gave my maximum in these specialised trainings.

11 Q. So you're saying you worked hard at this training. Would it be

12 fair to say that you picked up a lot of knowledge and a lot of skill from

13 these trainings?

14 A. What was requested of me by the training officers was performed by

15 me to the maximum extent possible.

16 Q. Do you feel that you learned a lot of knowledge and skills from

17 these training programmes?

18 A. I don't want to speak about my own qualifications. This should be

19 shown in my work. It should be said by my superiors and by my colleagues

20 who work with me. I believe that I carry out my work in a professional

21 and concrete manner and I put in maximum efforts in order to get things

22 done.

23 Q. Okay. And in the course of your career, and, again, through these

24 training courses, do you think you've learned to think critically about

25 matters?

Page 8947

1 A. Everyone who is involved in police work, unless one is critical

2 and is able to be self-critical also and see one's own mistake, cannot

3 carry out his work well.

4 Q. And would you agree that one would also not carry out his work

5 well if one did not look at all possibilities, at all different angles, in

6 an investigation?

7 A. If we are talking about a criminal act, an investigation includes

8 the police bodies and other organs which investigate this crime. By rule

9 and in practice each one should do its part of the work, which means the

10 responsible in investigating the crime must look into all aspects of this

11 investigation in order for it to be completed successfully.

12 Q. So would you agree it's important not to just take something at

13 face value but to really dig in and look at all different possibilities in

14 a situation?

15 A. In principle, nothing should be taken at face value. However,

16 there are situations where we, as inspectors, or employees of the ministry

17 working on concrete cases, must take into consideration even the most

18 insignificant piece of information, because this can lead us to some sort

19 of trace that will help us work on this case.

20 Q. So you would agree that would be very important when doing your

21 work, Mr. Stojkov.

22 And when I was speaking to you just a few moments ago I asked you

23 about your on view of your own talents and abilities and you said that you

24 would prefer to be judged by your peers, by your colleagues. Do you

25 remember that?

Page 8948

1 A. Of course.

2 Q. And, in fact, throughout your career, you have received

3 recognition for the quality of your work, haven't you?

4 A. I don't know what kind of recognition you are talking about, but

5 what I can say, that in the course of my career, and this is something I

6 said some -- I said yesterday, that I had been often awarded and

7 recognised for my work.

8 Q. And as an example, isn't it correct that in 2000, you were

9 rewarded with a pistol?

10 A. Correct. In 2000, on the proposal of my superiors at the time,

11 and in view of the fact that I had already been employed for ten years in

12 the Ministry of Interior and this is kind of a jubilee or an anniversary,

13 my superiors recommended to the commission which was, at that time, at the

14 office of the minister, and this recommendation was approved by the said

15 commission, and thus I received a pistol.

16 Q. And you have also been rewarded financially on several occasions,

17 haven't you?

18 A. It is customary not only in the Macedonian police, I see this as

19 the case in other police forces in other countries, that it is customary

20 that one be recommended for financial awards once a difficult case is

21 finished.

22 Q. And, in fact, you were once awarded with an increase of 15 per

23 cent of your salary for achieving extraordinary results in your work with

24 the military crimes working group. Isn't that right?

25 A. I cannot recall because I have been awarded several times with a

Page 8949

1 15 per cent increase of my monthly salary at the ministry. There is a

2 possibility that I was awarded also as part of this working group. I

3 cannot remember at this moment.

4 Q. Well, perhaps if you could turn to tab 1 of the binder in front of

5 you. And this document is 65 ter number 1149. And if you could turn to

6 what would be the third page in the English translation, and I believe

7 would be the fifth page in Macedonian, you'll see a document dated 4th of

8 October, 2001. Do you see the document I'm talking about?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And approximately halfway down the page you'll see a title:

11 Elaboration. Do you see that?

12 A. Please repeat it.

13 Q. There should be a title halfway down the page stating,

14 Elaboration, and under that the first line would be starting: The named

15 person in September 2001.

16 A. Yes, I see it.

17 Q. So just to read that to you it says: "The named person, in

18 September 2001, has achieved extraordinary results, respectively, has

19 performed the duties with a remarkable success and quality. Respectively,

20 the given tasks in the sphere of the working group for gathering evidences

21 for committed war crimes on the territory of the Republic of Macedonia are

22 finished in due time and with quality which contributes for a successful

23 accomplishment of the basic function of the working group and gathering of

24 quality evidences."

25 Do you see that?

Page 8950

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So this raise was given to you for the quality of your work with

3 the working group. Correct?

4 A. This is what is written here, so it must be for this.

5 Q. And, Mr. Stojkov, you've talked about putting in full effort in

6 your work and does that include being very thorough in your work?

7 A. As I said, I think I respond to all tasks then and now and in the

8 course of all of my work with the utmost seriousness. There are things or

9 documents which can -- or persons which cannot be got to at the moment.

10 However, I tried to put in my best effort.

11 Q. And as an investigator, do you recognise that it is very important

12 to keep thorough and accurate records of investigations?

13 A. In the course of investigations led by an inspector, first, notes

14 are taken in a daily log-book. Each one has a note pad where tasks and

15 obligations carried out are listed. As a rule, after certain information

16 has been obtained or interviewed had been carried out or on-site

17 investigation has been carried out, an Official Note has to be prepared.

18 A written document about the activities carried out. It may be several

19 activities in the course of one day, which means several written

20 documents; or it may be one Official Note covering several days, which

21 explain the activities and measures taken by the inspector in that period

22 of time.

23 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you're agreeing that it is

24 important to take notes and in fact in your practice you would take notes

25 of all tasks that were undertaken in an investigation. Is that correct?

Page 8951

1 A. Yes. I took notes in my note pads. These are my personal pads

2 where I took notes. To this day, I have notes of my work, I take

3 information from people and so forth. This is one of my basic tasks.

4 Q. Thank you. And I'd like to now move on ask you some questions

5 specifically about the working group on military crimes. And you

6 testified that this working group for gathering evidence on military

7 crimes was formed in May 2001. Do you know why there was a need to

8 establish such a working group?

9 A. I stated that later, when I joined the working group, that is, I

10 learned there was the initial working group that was established in May

11 2001. That group had the same tasks as us certainly, to see whether there

12 were any grounds to believe that some crimes, war crimes were committed.

13 I'm sure that this was why that working group was established.

14 Q. Specifically, why was this working group established in 2001?

15 A. Since specifically, in 2001, in January or February I believe, the

16 Republic of Macedonia became involved in the so-called military conflict.

17 So, as a consequence of this, there was a need to establish such working

18 group.

19 Q. And what did you understand the term "military crimes" to mean?

20 A. I think, so I'm saying about me personally, I'm not qualified to

21 give you a general meaning of that notion. But for me, anything that is

22 classified as war crime and that has been perpetrated during that time of

23 military conflict and perpetrated by uniformed individuals should be

24 categorised as war crimes.

25 Q. And just to summarize again I believe you testified that --

Page 8952

1 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for

3 interrupting my colleague, but obviously that notion is interpreted

4 wrongly. In the text of the decision, it is stated war crimes, no

5 military crimes are related, so I suggest that the term is used as used in

6 the document when this working group is discussed.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I think you may find that the term is used

8 variously in different documents. Two decisions of the minister, your

9 client, for example, in one there is a reference to war crimes; in another

10 there's reference to a different description.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But in the Macedonian, it

12 says "voeni zlostorstva" which would be war crimes. As it is also used in

13 numerous documents, speaking about this working group. I'm not a linguist

14 but I'm indicating that such problem exists. In Macedonian, that is war

15 crimes.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE PARKER: For example, in your tab 1, the order of the -- of

18 the previous witness -- no, of this present witness, the decision is

19 translated in English as "military crimes" --

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE PARKER: -- whereas in the document at tab 2, dated the 9th

22 of October, 2001, in paragraph 1, the meaning -- the words are translated

23 as "war crimes" in English.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, really,

25 neither my English nor my Macedonian are so good that I could really speak

Page 8953

1 about it, but "vojna" in my language, in Bosnian, means "military"; but in

2 Macedonian "voena" means "war". So possibility in the course of

3 translation , it is not us translating those documents, such confusion

4 occurs between the B/C/S version and the Macedonian version. So perhaps

5 it would be best if the witness could say what "Vojna" means in

6 Macedonian, so then we could also correct the other documents

7 simultaneously.

8 Thank you very much, and I apologise again.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Any correction will be on the basis of an

10 authorised translation, rather than the witness's understanding, and at

11 the moment, the authorised translations give us two different concepts.

12 So if either you or Mr. Dobbyn want to pursue that with the translation

13 authorities, you may do so. But at the moment we have two different

14 concepts. Whether they mean something different is yet another question.

15 Mr. Dobbyn.

16 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Now, just to go back, Mr. Stojkov, I believe you testified that

18 you started assisting the working group in September 2001, and you became

19 a permanent member in October of that year. Is that right?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. And you were a member of the working group until February 2003.

22 Does that sound correct to you?

23 A. I know that it was towards the beginning of 2003. Probably it is

24 correct that it was in February of 2003.

25 Q. And when you stopped working as a member of the working group, was

Page 8954

1 that because the work of that group was finished, or did you move on to

2 another position while they continued their work?

3 A. We stopped working as a working group practically because we were

4 appointed through a minister's decision. So we never actually stopped

5 working the working group, I mean, because we never received a document

6 stating that our involvement in the working group finishes.

7 During that period, somewhere before the new year, I don't

8 remember precisely, the political party in power changed in the Republic

9 of Macedonia and that brought about change in the senior personnel in the

10 Ministry of the Interior. And I believe in follow-up to this, since we

11 were established by the prior political government, I believe that this

12 was why in February 2003, one of the senior officers came and told us that

13 we will not work any longer until we are called to work again and that we

14 will return to our previous job posts that we held previously.

15 Q. Yesterday when you were talking about the work of this working

16 group you testified that for an investigation to commence, an injured

17 party or a relative of an injured party had to report the incident to the

18 local police station, and I believe this is at transcript page 8879. Is

19 that an accurate summary of what your testimony was?

20 A. Well, whenever a crime is reported, that should go through the

21 police station or the department for internal affairs of that police

22 station, so it was not only in the work of our working group. This is the

23 normal course that the police takes when intervening in other cases.

24 Q. So is it always necessary for a complaint to be made before an

25 investigation can be commenced?

Page 8955

1 A. What would be another way to learn that something had happened,

2 whether the complaint initially comes -- I'm now speaking about the basic

3 rule. Some aggrieved party can call the police station by phone or use

4 the police hot line, 192, that is operating in the Republic of Macedonia

5 and can report any case. After the case is reported, the duty officer,

6 the duty police officer, takes the data from the complainant and enters

7 them in the daily log-book. And after that, those police officers or

8 inspectors who go to an on-site inspection make an Official Note that they

9 have gone and investigated the claims.

10 Q. Thank you for that but perhaps let me be a bit more specific and

11 let me ask you: What if there's a situation where there's a crime which

12 is notorious, which is known throughout the area or the country, which

13 features in the media but where victims are too scared to come forward?

14 Are you saying that in that situation the crime would not be investigated?

15 A. I think that if there had been such event in my country, in the

16 Republic of Macedonia, certainly a way would have been found to

17 investigate the case, to arrive at the basic data, what had happened and

18 what needs to be undertaken. However, I don't think anything of the sort

19 had happened thus far without it being detected, without the perpetrators

20 being identified and without the case being clarified.

21 Q. I would just like to clarify the last part of your answer. Are

22 you saying that you are not aware of any situations where investigations

23 did take place based on media reports or general information that

24 something had happened?

25 A. This is exactly what I said. If something like that had happened,

Page 8956

1 if public had learned about it, then certainly some measures had been

2 taken to solve the case and to identify the perpetrators.

3 Q. Thank you. And to move on, I'd just like to ask you: What sort

4 of involvement, if any, did Minister Boskoski have in the working group?

5 A. Mr. Boskoski, in addition to being the person signed -- who has

6 signed by decision appointing me as member of that working group, I had no

7 other contacts with him. My contacts in my capacity of member of that

8 working group went either through the coordinator, Apostol Stojanovski,

9 through the director, Goran Mitevski, and in some meetings there was also

10 the then state secretary, Mr. Spasen Sofeski. So I never had any contacts

11 with Mr. Boskoski, when he was a minister, during that period, before or

12 afterwards.

13 Q. You did testify yesterday that you were told the working group had

14 Minister Boskoski's full support. And this is at transcript page 8888.

15 What did you take that to mean?

16 A. When I attended brief meetings at Mr. Mitevski, the director's

17 office, when we reported on the progress made and tasks completed, he told

18 us that our then minister, Mr. Ljube Boskoski, shows a great interest in

19 the work of the group, and that we will be provided with any assistance

20 from other bodies as well as technical assistance, which would mean

21 vehicles, equipment, anything that we would need. I stated this

22 yesterday.

23 Q. And do you know if he, in any way, directed or influenced which

24 cases the working group would investigate?

25 A. As I told you, you can see from the decision I was the lowest

Page 8957

1 ranking among my colleagues in that working group. The other colleagues

2 had higher ranks. That means that my communication went through my

3 coordinator or through the director, when he called me. So I am unable to

4 know whether the then minister, Mr. Ljube Boskoski, specifically gave any

5 orders to process some cases or not. It did not reach me. I had my

6 superior officers and I took my orders from them.

7 Q. Well, did you have any indication or any knowledge of whether he

8 was kept informed of the progress of the working group's various

9 investigations?

10 A. Well, certainly the director, Mr. Mitevski, the then director, he

11 certainly informed the minister because he was the one in contact with

12 him. I'm telling you that following the line, the hierarchy that we have

13 in the Ministry of the Interior, I could not have had without being

14 invited by the minister gone to a meeting or a briefing with him. He was

15 certainly informed by -- of the work of the working group but how and by

16 whom, I don't know.

17 Q. Well, can you tell me who the director, Mr. Mitevski -- actually,

18 let me just take a step back.

19 Am I correct in understanding that Mr. Mitevski was the person who

20 oversaw or who was in charge of the working group?

21 A. My direct superior was the coordinator, our coordinator, Apostol

22 Stojanovski. On several occasions, Mr. Mitevski invited me alone or

23 accompanied by Mr. Apostol Stojanovski, when he was specifically

24 interested to learn what was the progress he asked us to report, what was

25 completed, what was not completed, and what is yet to be taken, if this is

Page 8958

1 what you wanted me to tell you.

2 Q. What was the formal position of Apostol Stojanovski?

3 A. Mr. Apostol Stojanovski was the chief inspector in the homicide

4 department with the Ministry of the Interior and he was appointed member.

5 I saw him in the working group.

6 Q. And who did Mr. Stojanovski report to?

7 A. Well, Mr. Stojanovski, on the basis of his job position, was

8 the -- accountable to his superior officer, while as a member of the

9 working group he certainly submitted the reports to his superior, or, on

10 several occasions, because I went with him to the then under-secretary of

11 the Ministry of Interior. That office was held by Spasen Sofeski and

12 before him by Zivko Petrovski, but I'm not certain about this.

13 Q. When you say Mr. Stojanovski was accountable to his superior

14 officer, who was his superior officer, is this Spasen Sofeski or is it

15 someone else that you're referring to?

16 A. Mr. Apostol Stojanovski based on his job post belonged to the

17 homicide department of the Ministry of the Interior so he certainly had

18 his superior officer. The then head of the homicide department. I don't

19 know who was the holder of that office at that time because I had no

20 contact with them. But as a member of the working group, I know that he

21 contacts with the then under-secretary, and the then director

22 Goran Mitevski. And I know that very frequently some of the materials

23 were taken and handed over to Mrs. Katica Jovanovska. And who was his

24 direct superior, I don't know. I know that he was the coordinator for us,

25 the other members of the group.

Page 8959

1 Q. Let me ask you: Do you know who Spasen Sofeski took his orders

2 from?

3 A. Well, based on the hierarchy, the then under-secretary belonged or

4 had as his superior officer, the director. So certainly it was

5 Goran Mitevski.

6 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move on to the next topic from there.

7 Perhaps if you could turn to tab 4 in your binder. And do you see

8 some photographs in front of you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And if you look at the first one, which -- this is it 65 ter 1133

11 and the first photograph has the ERN N005-8223.

12 And can you see, Mr. Stojkov, that this photograph shows a

13 collection of files or boxes of files, and there are what appear to be

14 three tan boxes stacked on top of each other. There is one blue or grey

15 box and there are also some red binders or files stacked on top of each

16 other.

17 Do you recognise these at all?

18 A. Well, these three boxes that you described and red folders in the

19 background I am able to recognise. With regards to the grey box, I don't

20 recognise that.

21 Q. And what do you recognise the tan or brown boxes and the red

22 folders as?

23 A. These are part of the binders, just a few of them. There were

24 more. They -- that is my handwriting on them. I recognise my own

25 handwriting.

Page 8960

1 Q. And these are the binders from where?

2 A. There are binders where we placed the documents from the working

3 groups, part of the documents. There were several binders. This is just

4 a part of them. As far as I can see, that is my handwriting and in it it

5 is stated "Tetovo region," as far as I can see. Kidnapped, missing

6 persons - that is my handwriting.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. DOBBYN: I would seek to tender this photograph at this time.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P562, Your Honours.

11 MR. DOBBYN: And can we move to the next photograph in this array,

12 which is ERN N005-8224. And if we could just zoom in on the label.

13 Q. And, Mr. Stojkov, does this label read: Evidence material from

14 military crimes in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. So would you agree that it appears that this box also holds files

17 from the working group that you were part of?

18 A. I can't say what is inside the box because I can't see that. But

19 based on the heading here, I suppose that there are evidence materials on

20 war crimes inside. But whether those are materials that my working group

21 processed or not, I can't say, because I can't see what is inside the box.

22 I told you that I do not recognise this box. This is not one of the

23 binders where I kept my materials.

24 Q. Are you aware of the existence of any other bodies in the Ministry

25 of Interior that was collecting evidence on military crimes at that time?

Page 8961

1 A. If you are referring to the working groups, I know that there was

2 a group that I was a part of. The one established before me and where I

3 joined. I know that the analytical processing of the materials went

4 through the sector for analytics where Mrs. Katica Jovanovska was. The

5 forensic processing went through the police forensics department where

6 other colleagues were working, if that is what you are asking me about.

7 And whether there were -- oh, I know that my colleagues in Kumanovo were

8 working who used the same or similar methods as us in processing some of

9 the cases that took place there.

10 Q. Actually, I think my question was something a little different,

11 Mr. Stojkov. You've read a label on a box which appears to refer to this

12 box containing evidence material for military crimes, but you're saying

13 you can't say that this -- this box contains material that your working

14 group collected. What I'm saying is: Are you aware that any other

15 working groups had been established doing the same work that you were?

16 A. During the time when I was an active member, when my working group

17 was operating, I don't know whether there were any other working groups

18 collecting materials.

19 Q. Well, if we could just move on perhaps to the next document, the

20 next photograph, and this has the ERN N005-8228.

21 And, Mr. Stojkov, I believe you said before that you recognised

22 these folders or binders also. What do you recognise them to be?

23 A. The first one, at the front has my handwriting on the label. That

24 belonged to my working group. Regarding the second one, I'm not sure. I

25 can't really see it. I think that the title "Kumanovo" might be written

Page 8962

1 by me, while the inscription above it is not in my handwriting. I'm not

2 sure. But "Kumanovo" might be written by me. I'm sure that the

3 inscription above is not written by me. Maybe it was written by another

4 member of the group.

5 With regards to the third binder, I can't read it. The photograph

6 is poor, so I can't really say whether it was one of the -- the ones where

7 I wrote the label or not. It is really illegible.

8 Q. Okay. That's fine. Can I just ask you that folders or binders in

9 which you wrote the label, did those binders contain documents from your

10 working group?

11 A. In the period when I was working and when we handed over and when

12 we kept the documents, they were here. I need to say again. What I say

13 here is a binder. It has a label where the inscription is in my

14 handwriting, but I can't say whether the materials inside are the

15 materials from my working group or materials that I had processed or not.

16 I could say that they might be inside or they might not be inside, because

17 I don't see what is inside.

18 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, at this time I would seek to tender

19 this photograph.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P563, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Am I right, you've not tendered the second of the

24 three.

25 MR. DOBBYN: No, I haven't, Your Honour, in light of --

Page 8963

1 JUDGE PARKER: And you're not wanting it marked.

2 MR. DOBBYN: If we could marked for identification, please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: I don't know whether I've confused the registry

4 officer there.

5 THE REGISTRAR: The second photograph bearing ERN N005-8224 will

6 be Exhibit P564, marked for identification, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.


9 Q. Now, obviously, Mr. Stojkov, as you've testified, the working

10 group had collected a significant amount of materials and these are boxes

11 and folders demonstrate that, at least in this place, there were a

12 significant number of materials also. If it were to be put to a witness

13 before this Tribunal and that witness were agree that upon the change of

14 government in Macedonia in 2001, the documents collected by the working

15 group and the military crimes had been destroyed, from what we can see in

16 these photographs that proposition would clearly be incorrect. Wouldn't

17 you agree?

18 A. First of all, as I stated already, you have here one part of the

19 binders and folders containing some materials. I don't know what

20 materials are inside. I can only make a conjecture that it is my

21 materials inside. But certainly not everything is here. You have here

22 three binders only. In my opinion there should be at least ten binders

23 and ten boxes, and I can't even say whether the materials inside are my

24 materials.

25 Whether the materials after the change of government in 2002

Page 8964

1 and -- yes, towards the end of 2002, whether someone else, some other

2 colleagues who came to work here, whether they destroyed the materials or

3 not, I can tell you that I have heard many different versions, many

4 versions were in circulation in the -- in the Ministry of Interior that

5 some of the materials had disappeared, that some were hidden. But I never

6 had any possibility or any competence to verify this.

7 At the moment when we handed over the materials when actually our

8 work was terminated and we were ordered to hand over the materials, from

9 that moment onwards until the present day, I have not seen the materials;

10 so I can't confirm either way, whether it was destroyed or not.

11 Q. Well, what you have seen in front of you, Mr. Stojkov, --

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies for

14 interrupting my learned colleague in his cross-examination, but I think

15 that the witness is being misled about the change of government in 2001.

16 In 2001, there was no change of government, and this question misleads the

17 witness. Perhaps it is only an error in the year, on the part of my

18 learned colleague.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, sorry. There was certainly no intent to

21 mislead, and I believe the word I'd said was "after 2001." Perhaps I

22 could have been more precise in stating the year, but there was no

23 intention to mislead there.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


Page 8965

1 Q. Mr. Stojkov, if you put aside the possibility that someone has

2 taken the boxes and binders that you prepared and wrote labels on, and put

3 other documents inside, would you agree that there do appear to be

4 documents from your working group still existing today?

5 A. All materials which we processed prior to the disbanding of the

6 working group and which we submitted to the analytics department, this is

7 where they should be. They're processed in the analytics department and

8 then they're kept at the archives of the ministry.

9 Q. Now, you had mentioned earlier in response to a question of mine

10 that you had heard rumours about material being hidden or possibly being

11 destroyed. Was there an investigation into any of these rumours?

12 A. I said that these were rumours only. My position at the ministry,

13 then and now, which has not changed, and this can be -- seen that I was an

14 independent inspector at the unit for illicit drug trade and I'm still in

15 the same position. From that position I could not confirm whether these

16 rumours were correct or not or whether someone had undertaken measures to

17 destroy or not destroy to hide or to take this material from the ministry.

18 This I don't know.

19 Q. My question is a little different. I'm asking if you know if

20 there was any investigation into these rumours?

21 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, I see that my colleague is on his feet, Your

22 Honours.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies again

25 for interrupting my learned colleague in his cross-examination.

Page 8966

1 I was expecting him to ask the witness or at least our colleagues

2 to tell us when these photographs were taken before continuing with his

3 examination.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Is that something you're proposing, Mr. Dobbyn?

5 MR. DOBBYN: I'm certainly happy to offer that information, Your

6 Honour, and these photographs were taken last month, in the archives of

7 the Ministry of Interior in Skopje.

8 Q. Now, if we can just go back to my question, Mr. Stojkov, which was

9 did you have any knowledge as to whether there was any investigation into

10 these rumours of missing files?

11 A. I did not have such knowledge.

12 Q. Thank you. And now I'd like to move on and perhaps look at some

13 of the cases that were investigated by the working group into military or

14 war crimes.

15 And if we could turn to tab 5, and this is 65 ter number 1084.

16 And if we could go to the first page, N006-7652.

17 We appear to have the wrong document on e-court there. It's 65

18 ter 1084. Thank you.

19 What we see here, Mr. Stojkov, is a document headed: File for the

20 person Krstevski Borce. And it says: "Kidnapped and psycho-physically

21 maltreated by the Albanian terrorists."

22 Mr. Stojkov, are you able to recognise this as the cover page

23 of -- of a file from your working group?

24 A. I recognise the file but it is not very well placed to name this

25 person because he is still living in Macedonia. And since nothing has

Page 8967

1 been undertaken until now by the bodies in Macedonia or by international

2 bodies about the suffering of these people, I believe it is not well

3 placed to show these people and to name them. Otherwise, I recognise this

4 file, the first page, the cover page has been prepared by me.

5 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, in light of that, I would just ask that

6 these not be published to the outside.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. That will be the case.

8 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you.

9 If we could turn now to page N006-7658.

10 Q. And this should be approximately the seventh page in front of you,

11 Mr. Stojkov, and the sixth page in English. And it will be a document

12 entitled: Official Note number 2094. Do you have that document in front

13 of you, Mr. Stojkov.

14 A. Yes, I see it, Mr. Prosecutor.

15 Q. And do you see that this says: "MOI of the RM, UVR Tetovo, police

16 station Tetovo," and it's dated 6th, 7th 2001. And the subject is:

17 "Missing person reported." Do you see that?

18 A. Yes, I see it.

19 Q. And turning to the second paragraph you see that it states --

20 sorry, just to summarize, can you see from reading the paragraph that

21 someone is reporting that his son went missing on the 5th of July, 2001.

22 Do you follow that, Mr. Stojkov?

23 A. Yes, I follow you.

24 Q. Okay. And I'd like to go to a different page now and I'm sorry if

25 we're jumping backwards and forwards but these documents were not in

Page 8968

1 chronological order whereas I would like to follow the chronological

2 order. So if we could go back to the third page in the Macedonian and

3 it's the second page in English. And the ERN is N006-7654 and it's an

4 Official Note which is not numbered.

5 Do you have that page in front of you, Mr. Stojkov?

6 A. Yes, I see it.

7 Q. And can you see that this is an Official Note of an official

8 interview conducted with an individual who was kidnapped and maltreated by

9 the Albanian terrorists. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes, I see it.

11 Q. And can you see at the start of the first paragraph that this

12 interview was conducted on the 6th of September, 2001. Do you see that?

13 A. Yes, I see it.

14 Q. And from the top of the page, we can see that this Official Note

15 was drafted sometime in 2002. Would you agree?

16 A. Since there is no date, I can presume that it's technical mistake

17 because the interview was conducted on 6th of September, 2001. The place

18 is listed where this interview was carried out, that this was not carried

19 out in the official premises of police bodies. Therefore I can presume

20 that it is a technical mistake of the date when the interview was carried

21 out.

22 In the upper part where the number and the date should be stated,

23 it's -- this is left empty. This is left open so as when this document

24 goes into the analytics sector, it is processed and listed under a number

25 when it was processed. The text, on the other hand, explains exactly the

Page 8969

1 den and the date when this happened and how it happened.

2 Q. Do you see that the page in Macedonian, it has already typed,

3 already included in the -- in the note the date 2002. So, clearly, some

4 sort of processing took place in 2002 of this note. Would you agree with

5 that?

6 A. What do you mean the date was erased? The date was never put in

7 there. There's no date here. It's just 2002. That's put in the upper

8 left corner.

9 Q. Yes, Mr. Stojkov. That's exactly what I'm saying. It states 2002

10 in that document, doesn't it? So I'm saying that obviously there was some

11 processing of this document that took place in 2002. Would you agree with

12 that?

13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, this document, according my modest police

14 knowledge, has not been processed because it does not contain the number

15 or a date when it was processed. It should have a register number under

16 which all documents are entered, and then the date is written when they're

17 processed. If you visited the Ministry of the Interior, the analytical

18 department, someone should have informed you of this.

19 Q. Well, perhaps we'll move on from that point, Mr. Stojkov. If you

20 look at the second paragraph on that page, do you see that this interview

21 is in reference to something that happened on the night between the 3rd

22 and 4rd of June, 2001?

23 A. It is so stated.

24 Q. And in the last paragraph of that page it states: "There were

25 four individuals dressed in camouflage uniforms with UCK emblems ..."

Page 8970

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes, I see it.

3 Q. And would you agree that this document, running to four pages,

4 appears to a lengthy and very comprehensive note of the contents of the

5 interview which took place?

6 A. If I were to read this text, from what I can see now, there's a

7 chronological overview of what happened, what happened to that person from

8 the moment he was kidnapped to the time when he was set free. Surely it

9 includes a lot of information to that end. I agree with you.

10 Q. And if you go right to the end of the document, which is ERN

11 N006-7657, do you see at the bottom, it says: "Submitted by," and it has

12 the name Stojkov Igno. Do you see that?

13 A. Yes. In addition to me, here we have my colleagues also who

14 worked on this, which means that the three of us attended this interview

15 and took part in this interview.

16 Q. And do you recall this specific interview?

17 A. From what I am able to see now, I can see that the interview was

18 conducted in a student's home where misplaced persons were settled. This

19 is where the interview was carried out and this person told us what had

20 happened to him.

21 Prior to this interview, there were also other conversations also.

22 At first this person did not want to accept to tell us what had happened.

23 He refused to cooperate with us at first, because he was not sure whether

24 this will be material that will be kept over in the -- only in the

25 ministry. People were afraid to talk about things like this. And this is

Page 8971

1 a problem we encountered with everyone, with Macedonians, Albanians, Roma

2 also, because this home had people from all ethnicities.

3 Q. Mr. Stojkov, do you recall if you took the notes of this interview

4 yourself?

5 A. Perhaps in my log I took notes, surely I must have taken notes.

6 And most probably I might still have them, containing information about

7 this person, perhaps the dates also when these things happened, and

8 approximately what persons took part in this. But after such a long

9 period of time, I cannot remember.

10 Q. That's understandable, Mr. Stojkov. Perhaps if we can move on to

11 what is page 10 in the Macedonian version, the ERN of this page is

12 N006-7661. And it will have the title: "Record for admitting a criminal

13 charge."

14 Do you see this, Mr. Stojkov?

15 A. Yes, I see it.

16 Q. And at the top it states: "Ministry of Interior; 28.3.2002;

17 Record for admitting a criminal charge"; has the name of a reporting

18 person. And it states that this file -- "this is a file of a criminal

19 charge against an unknown committer for the criminal act of kidnapping and

20 seizure of a private motor vehicle."

21 Do you see that?

22 A. Yes, I see.

23 Q. And at the bottom do you see the official stamp of the Ministry of

24 Interior, SVR Tetovo?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8972

1 Q. And who would this record for admitting a criminal charge go to,

2 Mr. Stojkov?

3 A. This record is submitted to the OVR in Tetovo. The person

4 reported that in this period of time, was kidnapped, maltreated and then

5 set free.

6 Q. And when the OVR in Tetovo received this document, did they

7 forward it on from there?

8 A. This is kind of a specific document. It's dated 28 March, while

9 we must have had this in copy from OVR Tetovo, since it exists in our

10 file. The undersigned, we have who made the complaint, there were

11 official persons involved, all of these persons have signed this document.

12 Q. And does this document go to the public prosecutor?

13 A. I could not tell you this. All of these documents, including this

14 one, if it's in the file, has been processed to the analytics units. But

15 whether they forward it to the basic public prosecutor's office or not,

16 it's not something I can say.

17 Q. So this document is a complaint by a citizen, is that correct, or

18 is it a charge forwarded by the police?

19 A. This is a form that is filled out by a person, injured person,

20 coming to the police station wanting to submit a complaint. It could be

21 this person or someone from his family. In the case that they want to

22 report an event, whether it be a crime or an other kind of event the duty

23 officer or the reception officer takes this information and makes a record

24 of this in seven copies. There are seven such forms that include the

25 basic information about the complainant. This is one such form, where the

Page 8973

1 time, the manner, and the place of the event has taken place. All of

2 these information given by the aggrieved person is entered by the duty

3 officer or the reception officer, and is signed, you see down here below,

4 three signatures. And this is prepared in seven copies. When one comes

5 to a police station to report something, a form of this kind is filled

6 for -- for preparing a criminal charge. Therefore, this is not a criminal

7 charge.

8 THE INTERPRETER: A criminal report, interpreter's correction.


10 Q. If you could move on to page N006-7666 --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Before we move, would it be convenient to have a

12 break at this time, Mr. Dobbyn?

13 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I believe -- if we could allow another

14 five minutes, we could finish with this topic.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Splendid, yes.


17 Q. Sorry. Before moving on quickly, could you explain, Mr. Stojkov,

18 the seven copies that are prepared, what happens to those?

19 A. These are processed. If the perpetrators of the crime are found,

20 by rule, the criminal report is also prepared in several copies depending

21 on the number of perpetrators, and depending on the type of crime but

22 usually or, in the least, three copies are made which are part of the

23 criminal report. One of them is written in hand, while the other three,

24 one remains in the police station in the file of the responsible police

25 officers, the other one goes to the unit of analytics of the police

Page 8974

1 station and the other in the analytics of the Ministry of Interior or

2 OVR -- SVR Skopje, if this was committed in Skopje.

3 However, I am not an analyst and I cannot tell you in concrete

4 terms. This is something that I have learned from my practice, because I

5 have encountered forms of this kind.

6 Q. I would just like to be clear on this point, Mr. Stojkov. At

7 least in the transcript you referred to seven copies. You have said that

8 you have referred to -- you described what happens to three copies. What

9 happens to the other four?

10 A. I think I explained this. If the alleged perpetrator is caught or

11 the accused for the crime that has been reported, the form must be

12 included in the criminal report which, through the analytics sector, it is

13 then submitted to the public prosecutor's office. Depending on the crime

14 and depending on the number of perpetrators, so many forms are prepared.

15 If the perpetrators are not caught, if a report is not made, then this

16 remains with the police officer or in the analytics sector. I'm not an

17 analyst, I don't know. But I do know that one copy is kept with the

18 responsible police officers so that he could work with this document.

19 Q. Okay. And perhaps this will be the last question we will ask on

20 this for the moment.

21 When the police receive a criminal charge like this against an

22 unknown committer, will they then try to identify that unknown perpetrator

23 and arrest that person?

24 A. It is a legal obligation and duty of police officers upon receipt

25 of any report of an injured party to undertake measures and activities

Page 8975

1 according to responsibilities and obligations to discover the perpetrator

2 of this act. Therefore, measures have to be taken.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. DOBBYN: I think this might be an appropriate time to take a

5 break, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at five minutes to 6.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, CLSS reacted swiftly

11 to our discussion regarding the translation and informed us during the

12 break that the proper term for "voeni zlostorstva" is "war crimes," and at

13 the same time, submitted corrected translation of our Exhibit 1D115.

14 During the break, we submitted to the Prosecutor the original and the

15 corrected document with the corrections from the CLSS. So I would like to

16 hand out the corrections and allow us to replace the existing document,

17 the original document, to replace it by the corrected translation from the

18 CLSS.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.

21 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, Your Honours. We have also seen the e-mail from

22 CLSS and we're happy to accept that translation. Obviously, I'm working

23 from some documents which -- they're draft translations and I will try to

24 use the correct term; but if I slip, then I'm happy to be corrected.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Stojkov, before we broke we had pulled up a page from the

Page 8976

1 file that we had been examining and this is the page with ERN N006-7666.

2 Do you have that page in front of you? It consists of some medical

3 records.

4 A. Yes, I see the document.

5 Q. And you can see that these records come from the public health

6 organisation clinic in Skopje and they relate to the person that this file

7 is about. Do you see that?

8 A. Yes, I see that.

9 Q. So when investigating this case, at least, the working group was

10 able to obtain medical records. Is that correct?

11 A. We received the medical files from the persons that accepted to

12 talk to us, to cooperate with the working group. I think that during my

13 work, I'm speaking about myself only, I have not taken any medical

14 documents from any health organisation in Skopje or elsewhere, unless they

15 were brought by the aggrieved persons themselves.

16 Q. And if we could go on to page N006-7672. And this should be the

17 second-to-last page in the Macedonian version, Mr. Stojkov. And it's the

18 last page of the English translations.

19 Do you have that page in front of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And can you see that this document comes from the general city

22 hospital in Skopje. Do you see that?

23 A. No. This document comes -- yes. Yes, the city General Hospital

24 in Skopje.

25 Q. And do you see the date, 18 December 2002?

Page 8977

1 A. 18th or the 13th, I'm not sure, but it is December 2002.

2 Q. Okay. So this clearly shows, doesn't it, that the working group

3 was still gathering documents in relation to this case, at least until

4 towards the end of 2002?

5 A. Yes. As you can see, there is an addition from the 16th of

6 February, 2002, on the document itself.

7 Q. And -- sorry, one moment there.

8 Just to clarify what's on the record, you do agree that the date

9 at the top of the page is either the 18th or the 13th of December, 2002.

10 Correct?

11 A. This is what is written here. I haven't issued this document, and

12 I haven't signed it and I do not understand what is written in the

13 document because this is a medical document. I have no medical skills, so

14 I can't really say. But on the top of the page it is written 13th or the

15 18th of December, 2002. If this is what is written, it is possible that

16 that was the date.

17 Q. Thank you. And, Mr. Stojkov, are you aware of the date that the

18 amnesty law was passed in Macedonia?

19 A. I don't remember the exact date, but of course, the general

20 public, the media published that the Law on Amnesty entered into force. I

21 might have seen the document in some of the media, but I haven't had the

22 opportunity to review it, but I knew that at one point the Law on Amnesty

23 entered into force.

24 Q. Well, perhaps could you turn to tab 15 in your binder, and this is

25 Exhibit P00083. This is in tab 15, Mr. Stojkov. Do you have that?

Page 8978

1 And if you look at the first page, do you see at the top it

2 states: "Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia, number 18,

3 Friday, 8 March, 2002." Do you see that?

4 A. March 7, 2002.

5 Q. Sorry, if you go further above that, do you see the -- at the top

6 of the page: "Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia, number 18,

7 Friday, 8 March 2002." Do you see that now?

8 A. In the upper part, it is only written on the basis of Article 75,

9 that is the first line of the document.

10 Q. Yes, I see that myself. So we see the date, 7th March 2002, the

11 heading under that decree for proclaiming the Law on Amnesty. Do you see

12 that?

13 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

14 Q. So would you agree that the Law on Amnesty was passed in early

15 March 2002?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. And the Law on Amnesty obviously didn't put a halt to the working

18 group's investigations into war crimes.

19 A. The working group on war crimes - I apologise - was working based

20 on tasks given by our superior officer. At any moment when we have been

21 told that the working group's activities terminate, we would have

22 terminated them, but this Law on Amnesty applies to persons who

23 perpetrated criminal offences during the armed conflict in the Republic of

24 Macedonia. But this Law does not relieve of responsibility persons who

25 had perpetrated grave offences against the citizens of the Republic of

Page 8979

1 Macedonia. So the law cannot absolve someone who has perpetrated a

2 murder. Do you agree, Mr. Prosecutor, with me?

3 Q. Well, Mr. Stojkov, I do apologise, but in the Tribunal here I am

4 the one who asks the questions and I would ask you to answer them rather

5 than the other way around. And my question, Mr. Stojkov, is did you

6 receive any instructions to stop your investigations after the Law on

7 Amnesty was passed in early March 2002?

8 A. We did not receive any instructions to stop the working of our

9 working group.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could move to tab 6, Mr. Stojkov, and here

11 we'll see another file from the records of the working group, and this is

12 65 ter number 1091.

13 And, Mr. Stojkov, if you look at the first page you'll see the

14 heading: "File," has the name of a person. And it states: "Kidnapped

15 and psycho-physically maltreated by the Albanian terrorists."

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yes, I see that.

18 Q. And is this another file from the working group that you were a

19 member of?

20 A. Yes, correct.

21 Q. Now, I'd like to -- like you to turn to the last page in this

22 file, and the ERN is N006-7736. And this is an unnumbered Official Note,

23 dated 29.6.2001. Do you see that document? This should be the last page.

24 And, again, Mr. Stojkov, do you see that this document is dated 29

25 June 2001?

Page 8980

1 A. Yes, I see that.

2 Q. And you can see from the subject that it's a report of a missing

3 person. Do you see that?

4 A. This is a report on missing persons.

5 Q. And if we can turn back, please, to the fifth page in the

6 Macedonian, it's the fourth page in English, the ERN is N006-7726. And

7 this document is a record for admitting a criminal charge.

8 A. Yes, this is a record for admitted criminal report.

9 Q. And it's submitted on 9 July 2001. Correct?

10 A. Yes, it is correct. It was submitted on the said date at the

11 police station in Skopje.

12 Q. And this is a complaint of a criminal charge against an unknown

13 perpetrator for the criminal act of kidnapping. Do you see that?

14 A. Yes, I see that. It is speaking about kidnapping by unknown

15 perpetrators.

16 Q. So, again, this complaint was accepted even though the perpetrator

17 had not been identified. Correct?

18 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it does not mean that any report would be -- any

19 and every report would be on identified perpetrator. In many of the

20 records on criminal reports you will note that the word "NN," unknown

21 person, is used for the perpetrators. So there is nothing unusual about

22 this one report.

23 Q. I'm not suggesting it is unusual. I'm simply asking you: Is that

24 what it says on the document, Mr. Stojkov?

25 A. It is correct, Mr. Prosecutor, this is what is written in the

Page 8981

1 document.

2 Q. And as you testified just earlier on, even though the perpetrator

3 is unknown at this point, the police still have a legal obligation to try

4 to discover the identity of that perpetrator. Isn't that right?

5 A. Yes, that is correct. The identity of these perpetrators should

6 be established.

7 Q. And if you could turn to the page in front of that, N006-7725.

8 And this is Official Note number 325. Do you have that document in front

9 of you?

10 A. Yes, I see it.

11 Q. And do you see that it's dated 10 July 2001?

12 A. That is correct, 10th of July, 2001.

13 Q. And can you see from the subject that this is a conducted

14 conversation with a certain individual?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And --

17 A. Conversation with the given person.

18 Q. And can you see from the name that this person appears to be a

19 relative of the victim in this case?

20 A. Yes. This is the person who is reporting the event as we saw in

21 the previous document. The report is made on the criminal -- a record is

22 made on the criminal report filed and that the complainant is a relative

23 of the abducted person.

24 Q. And can we go forward two pages to N006-7727. This is an

25 unnumbered Official Note. Do you have that document in front of you,

Page 8982

1 Mr. Stojkov?

2 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, I see it.

3 Q. And do you see that it is headed: "Republic of Macedonia,

4 Ministry of Interior, sector for interior Skopje"?

5 A. Yes, this is what is written.

6 Q. And the subject is: Conducted official conversations with two

7 persons who are named, kidnapped and maltreated by the Albanian

8 terrorists.

9 Do you see that?

10 A. Yes, I see that.

11 Q. And from the first line of the next paragraph, can you see that

12 this conversation took place on the 28th of February, 2002?

13 A. Yes, that is correct, on the 28th of February, 2002.

14 Q. And if you could turn to the next page in the Macedonian version,

15 Mr. Stojkov, and this is still on the same page in the English version.

16 So it is 7728 in the Macedonian but remaining on the same page in English.

17 Do you see the first paragraph in the Macedonian version and it's

18 in the middle of the page in English starting: "Driving on the old road

19 from Vratnica."

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yes, sir, I see that.

22 Q. And if you carry on to the end of that paragraph, it says: "They

23 were intercepted by four unknown uniformed and armed persons."

24 And carrying on to the next paragraph it states: "The same were

25 dressed in camouflage uniformed with NLA insignia on the sleeves of the

Page 8983

1 uniforms."

2 Do you see that?

3 A. Yes, I see it.

4 Q. And I would like you now to turn forward three pages, two pages in

5 the English. It will be NOO6-7730 in Macedonian and N006-7729 in English.

6 And I'd like you to look at the first paragraph on the page that you're

7 looking at, Mr. Stojkov, and it's midway down the page in the English

8 page, and there's a paragraph starting: "While he was in the house."

9 Do you follow that, Mr. Stojkov?

10 A. I see it.

11 Q. And do you see that it states: "While he was in the house, to

12 Dragi was granted the request to write a letter to his family and the same

13 was sent through the Red Cross from whom he received a letter from his

14 wife."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And if you continue down approximately four paragraphs, do you see

18 a paragraph starting: "After the short meeting ..."

19 Do you see that?

20 A. Yes, I see it.

21 Q. And it states: "After the short meeting between the terrorists

22 and the International Red Cross, three named individuals were delivered to

23 the persons from the ICRC and with their vehicles were taken to the

24 positions of the Macedonian security forces, where they were finally

25 released and met with their families."

Page 8984

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes, I see it and I read it.

3 Q. So you can see that, according to this Official Note, in this

4 situation, the NLA negotiated with representatives of the International

5 Committee of the Red Cross, would you agree with that?

6 A. Well, it is noted here that they had a meeting, the NLA and the

7 International Red Cross, so they had contacts. And so I agree with you.

8 Q. And in fact is says here, doesn't it, that these abducted persons

9 were released to the ICRC by the NLA, doesn't it?

10 A. I would say that these persons were freed by the International Red

11 Cross. So with negotiations by the International Red Cross these persons

12 were released by the NLA and taken over by the ICRC.

13 Q. And if you look at the bottom of the page and over to the next

14 page in English, do you see your name listed as a submitter of this

15 document?

16 A. Yes, it is correct. That is my name.

17 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, at this time I would seek to tender

18 this document 65 ter 1091 and I would also ask -- seek to tender the

19 previous file which was 65 ter 1084.

20 JUDGE PARKER: That's tab 5 and tab 6.

21 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE PARKER: In that order, they will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 1084 will become

24 Exhibit P565, and 65 ter 1091 will become Exhibit P566.


Page 8985

1 Q. If you could please turn to tab 8, Mr. Stojkov. This is 65 ter

2 number 1111.

3 And we have the first page in Macedonian. We don't have a

4 translation for that page in English. But do you recognise this as

5 another file from your working group's documents?

6 A. Yes, I recognise it.

7 Q. And can you read for us what it says on the cover page, omitting

8 any names that may be on there. And, again, I ask that this not be

9 published.

10 A. There are no names. The title is: "Dossier, case file." Then

11 there are lines left to note the full name, residence, Official Note,

12 medical documents, photographic documents, and note.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you please go to page 3 in the Macedonian

14 version, page 2 in the English and this is N006-7915. And this is an

15 unnumbered Official Note. Do you see that document?

16 A. Yes, I see it.

17 Q. And can you see that this is an Official Note relating to an

18 interview conducted with an individual and that document -- that interview

19 took place on 17 October 2002. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes, I see it. Official Note, on interview conducted with

21 such-and-such person in relation to a physical maltreatment.

22 Q. And if you go to the start of the second paragraph, the first

23 line, do you see that it begins to describe an event that started on

24 18 August 2001?

25 A. Yes, I see it.

Page 8986

1 Q. So you would agree with me, then, that this Official Note was

2 prepared over a year after the event in question and also well after the

3 amnesty law had come into effect?

4 A. Based on the date, it is possible that it was produced one year

5 after the event, and certainly after the Law on Amnesty because the Law on

6 Amnesty entered into force in March, if I remember correctly now. Yes,

7 that is correct.

8 Q. If you could turn to the next page which is N006-7916. Do you see

9 your name at the bottom of that page?

10 A. Yes, that is my name.

11 Q. And if you could turn to the next page, do you see that this is a

12 medical record obtained by the working group and it comes from the JZO

13 clinic centre in Skopje?

14 A. Yes, that is correct, yes. That is some document from the clinic

15 centre in Skopje. That is a medical document.

16 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I would seek to tender this file at

17 this time, 65 ter 1111.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P567, Your Honours.


21 Q. If you could turn next, Mr. Stojkov, to tab 10. And if you could

22 turn to the second page in Macedonian, the first page in English. You

23 will see that this is an Official Note. And can you see, Mr. Stojkov,

24 that this is dated 10 October 2002. Do you see that?

25 Sorry, Mr. Stojkov. I can see from here that it appears that you

Page 8987

1 may be in the wrong tab. I'm looking in tab 10.

2 A. I apologise, yes, I see it.

3 Q. It's fine. And do you see that this is an Official Note relating

4 to an interview conducted with an individual in relation to his abduction

5 by Albanian terrorists. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes, I see it.

7 Q. And if you look at the second paragraph, do you see that the

8 incident that this Official Note relates to occurred on 23 July 2001?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. So do you agree that we can see from this that work on this file

11 continued well over a year after the incident took place?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And if you turn to the last page, can you tell if you see your

14 page -- sorry, your name at the bottom of the page?

15 A. Yes, this is my name and last name.

16 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I would seek to admit -- to tender this

17 document at this time.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P568, Your Honours.


21 Q. Mr. Stojkov, we have just one more file from the working group

22 that I'll ask you to look at, and I'm sure you will be happy to hear that

23 this will be the last one we'll go through. And this is in tab 11, 65 ter

24 1110.

25 And do you see that this -- the first page has the heading:

Page 8988

1 "Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of Interior, criminology techniques."

2 Do you see that?

3 A. Yes, correct.

4 Q. And it states: "File, murder that took place on 5.5.2001," in the

5 house of a named individual in Selce village when the owner was murdered.

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, I see it.

8 Q. And, Mr. Stojkov, from the name of that individual, are you able

9 to tell whether that person was an ethnic Macedonian or ethnic Albanian?

10 A. Ethnic Albanian.

11 Q. Thank you. And if -- perhaps we could go through the next pages

12 in Macedonian. They're feature photographs. We don't have English

13 translations as such, so if we could just move through on to the next

14 page.

15 And do you see there, Mr. Stojkov, what appear to be photographs

16 of a village?

17 A. Yes, I see.

18 Q. And if we could go to the page N006-7886. This should be the

19 sixth page.

20 And do you agree that what we can see here appears to be the

21 interior of a house, Mr. Stojkov?

22 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

23 Q. And do you see that there appears to be a person seated in these

24 photographs?

25 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

Page 8989

1 Q. Does the appearance of the person in these photographs give you

2 any indication of his ethnicity?

3 A. Yes. Ethnic Albanian origin.

4 Q. So you would agree that in this case, apparently, police were able

5 to gain access to the interior of this person's house?

6 A. Since photographs were made, they did have access in the village

7 of Selce.

8 Q. And, Mr. Stojkov, do you know where Selce village is?

9 A. I have never been there personally. I know that it's under the

10 Tetovo municipality.

11 Q. Do you know whether this is a population which is largely ethnic

12 Albanian?

13 A. I believe the population is mixed. I'm not sure.

14 Q. Well, isn't it true, Mr. Stojkov, that during the conflict in

15 2001, this village was perceived by the Macedonian authorities as being

16 pro-NLA?

17 A. I cannot say how the villages were qualified because my work, at

18 that period of time was altogether different. I carried out tasks given

19 to me by my superiors. As for the qualification of villages, this went --

20 this was broadcast publicly through the media and this is the individual

21 opinion of people. If you ask me, I know that the village of Sipkovica is

22 the place and the centre where the NLA was located. As for other

23 villages, I cannot say.

24 Q. Well, was anything broadcast publicly through the media about the

25 village of Selce and where its sympathies might lie?

Page 8990

1 A. I cannot respond to this question. I don't remember.

2 Q. Okay. If we could please move on to the photograph which is page

3 N006-7894.

4 Do you have that page in front of you, Mr. Stojkov?

5 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

6 Q. And do you see what appear to be numbered markers in those

7 photographs?

8 A. Yes, I see.

9 Q. And what would such markers be used for?

10 A. From the on-site investigations conducted by the forensics

11 department that I participated in… these are used to mark the crime scene.

12 However, I'm not an expert to say why these are used. As far as I know,

13 these are markers to mark evidence at a crime scene.

14 Q. And can we move on to page N006-7895.

15 And do you see, Mr. Stojkov, that this appears to be a photo of

16 the victim in this case?

17 A. Yes, I see it.

18 Q. And if we could now move to the page with the ERN N006-7902.

19 And do you see there what appears to be a sketch of a crime scene,

20 Mr. Stojkov?

21 A. Yes, I see. This is, I regret to say, a sketch from a murder

22 scene.

23 Q. And do you agree that it appears a pretty thorough inspection was

24 done of the crime scene here?

25 A. According to these documents, yes.

Page 8991

1 Q. And, again, this was done in an ethnic Albanian village. Correct?

2 A. I told you, I don't know whether this is exclusively an ethnic

3 Albanian village. I cannot confirm this, because I have never been there

4 and I don't know where it is. But the forensic inspection team went to

5 the scene, and this is their investigation.

6 Q. Yes, I apologise, Mr. Stojkov. I do recall you saying you weren't

7 aware of the -- the makeup of that village, but you are aware that this

8 was at least the house of an ethnic Albanian. Correct?

9 A. Yes, it is correct, the house of is of an ethnic Albanian.

10 Q. Now, can we please turn to page with the ERN N006-7911. This

11 should be near the end, Mr. Stojkov. I believe it's page 31 in the

12 Macedonian, and it's the fourth page in the English translations.

13 Do you see, Mr. Stojkov, that this is an Official Note dated 6 May

14 2001, and it's an interview in relation to the death of this individual?

15 A. Yes, this is correct. I see it.

16 Q. And could you please turn to the page before that, N006-7910.

17 This is an Official Note dated 7 May 2001. And you see from this that

18 this is an Official Note of another interview in relation to this

19 incident.

20 A. Yes, this is correct.

21 Q. And just looking towards the end of the paragraph, do you see

22 where it states: "The murder of his father took place on 5.5.2001 at

23 about 2200 hours and was committed by five armed persons dressed in

24 uniforms and who spoke Albanian and Serbian."

25 Do you see that? This should be at the bottom of the first

Page 8992

1 paragraph.

2 A. Yes, I see it.

3 Q. And the start of the paragraph after that states: "On 5.5.2001 in

4 the evening at about 2200 hours five armed individuals in black uniforms

5 came into our home ..."

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, I see it.

8 Q. And would it be fair to say that individuals dressed in black

9 uniforms and speaking Albanian would be an indication that these were NLA

10 members?

11 A. Yes. All indications point to this.

12 Q. If you could please turn to the page in front of that, which is

13 N006-7909.

14 And you will see that this is a document headed: "Ministry of

15 Interior SOI Tetovo." It is dated 8.5.2001. And then it says: "Basic

16 public prosecutor, Tetovo."

17 Carrying down a little bit it says: "Criminal charges."

18 Do you see that, Mr. Stojkov?

19 A. Yes, I see it, Mr. Prosecutor.

20 Q. And it states: "Criminal charges against unknown perpetrator for

21 committing a crime, terrorism."

22 Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I see this too.

24 Q. So, in this case, an investigation was undertaken, interviews were

25 done, the crime scene was extensively analysed and charges were filed.

Page 8993

1 Would that be accurate?

2 A. Here a criminal report is submitted against an unknown

3 perpetrator. However, the case has not been fully resolved. However,

4 it's true that a criminal report was submitted against an unknown

5 perpetrator.

6 Q. And this was submitted to the basic public prosecutor in Tetovo,

7 wasn't it?

8 A. Yes, this is correct.

9 Q. So would you agree that simply because the identity of a

10 perpetrator of a crime is unknown, that alone is not a valid reason to

11 pass the case on to the public prosecutor for investigation, of charges,

12 sorry?

13 A. The usual practice in the Macedonian police is upon registering a

14 criminal act perpetrated in which case the perpetrator cannot be

15 immediately found and arrested, it is necessary to inform the public

16 prosecutor's office and the courts about this criminal and legal incident.

17 This report can be done immediately after the incident by the duty

18 officers and criminal report is submitted against an unknown perpetrator

19 to the public prosecution so as they can give further direction for

20 further investigation of this criminal act.

21 Q. Sorry, I left out a word in my question to you and I would just

22 like to make that clear for the record. And my question should have been

23 that simply because the identity of a perpetrator of a crime is not known,

24 that alone is not a valid reason not to pass the case or pass the charges

25 on to the public prosecutor. Is that correct? I'm sorry to ask to you

Page 8994

1 repeat that.

2 A. All criminal and legal incidents for which there is evidence that

3 they have been committed are reported to the public prosecutor's office.

4 Is this -- if this is what you had in mind.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. DOBBYN: I would seek to tender this document, Your Honour,

7 65 ter 110.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.


10 MR. DOBBYN: Under seal, Your Honours, if we can.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Under seal.

12 MR. DOBBYN: And, Your Honours, I would ask that Exhibits P565 to

13 P568 also be admitted under seal.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can manage to do that, Mr. Dobbyn.

15 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1110 will become Exhibit P569, under seal,

16 Your Honours.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Dobbyn, is that, then, a convenient time to end

18 for today?

19 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, I believe it would be, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We're, as I indicated yesterday, experimenting a

21 little with sitting times this week.

22 We will adjourn for the night and resume tomorrow at 2.15.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.48 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

25 February, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.