1 Thursday, 7 February 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 Good afternoon, sir. Would you please stand and read aloud the

8 affirmation on the card that is given to you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. I solemnly declare that

10 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 WITNESS: PETRE STOJANOVSKI

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.

14 Ms. Residovic has some questions for you.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Examination by Ms. Residovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stojanovski.

18 Mr. Stojanovski, we have already met, but I'd like to introduce

19 myself officially. My name is Edina Residovic and together with my

20 colleague Guenael Mettraux we represent the Defence team for

21 Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

22 Can you give us your full name, first and last name for the

23 record, please, sir?

24 A. Petre Stojanovski.

25 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, before I move on to my questions, I'd like to ask

1 you to hear what I have to say. Although we don't speak the same

2 language, I do think that you can understand what I'm saying, and I myself

3 understand what you're saying. However, my questions and your answers

4 have to be interpreted for the Trial Chamber and everybody else in the

5 courtroom to be able to follow the proceedings, my questions and your

6 testimony. And for that reason, once you've heard my question, please

7 pause to give the interpreters a chance to interpret my question and then

8 go ahead with your answer.

9 Have you understood?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, can you tell us when and where you were born?

12 A. On the 23rd of March, 1963, in Skopje.

13 Q. And what education do you have?

14 A. Sixth degree, that is faculty of security.

15 Q. When and where did you graduate from the faculty of security?

16 A. In 1984, in Skopje.

17 Q. Did you begin working in the Ministry of the Interior of the

18 Republic of Macedonia at any time?

19 A. Yes. That same year, I started working at the MOI.

20 Q. Before testifying here, Mr. Stojanovski, have you ever given

21 statements to the investigators of this Tribunal?

22 A. Yes. We had contacts, I believe it was in 2004, when I was

23 summoned by them to give a statement. However, due to several reasons,

24 that statement remained unfinished and unsigned by me.

25 Q. Can you state the reasons why you failed to sign the statement

1 although you talked to the investigator?

2 A. Although the interview went through an interpreter, I thought

3 there were misunderstandings with regards to the format in which the

4 statement were to be taken. I believe that what I am saying needs to

5 be -- needed to be entered, while the investigators thought that they were

6 to rephrase it, to state there what they understood from what I was

7 saying.

8 Further on, there were misunderstandings related to certain facts,

9 and I can't really remember that, after which, they threatened me in the

10 sense that they could indict me for certain issues and their conduct went

11 outside of the boundaries of propriety, and this is why I decided to leave

12 the room where the interview was conducted.

13 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, is it true and correct that the Defence put it to

14 you that the Prosecutor, in a way, considered you to be part of the joint

15 criminal enterprise linked to the events that you have decided to testify

16 about?

17 A. Yes, it is correct that you had indicated this to me, although I

18 still can't understand or find any explanation for that attitude.

19 Q. And why did you decide to come in and testify?

20 A. I believe that the testimony is a citizen's obligation and duty,

21 on the one hand, and as a member of the Ministry of Interior, I should

22 have faith in the justice and be prepared to contribute towards

23 ascertaining the truth.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Stojanovski, let's go back to your

25 professional experience.

1 In order to speed up this part of your testimony, I'm going to ask

2 you whether you did certain things, worked at certain jobs, and if you

3 feel that anything is different to what I set out, please let me know.

4 A. Very well.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to use

6 leading questions so that we don't dwell on these matters for too long.

7 Q. You said that upon graduation in 1984, you started working

8 straight away in the Ministry of the Interior, the MOI, and at the time

9 you were a trainee, right?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. From 1984, from the end of that year, December, when you completed

12 your training session, you were a junior inspector for defence; and from

13 1984, you worked in the operative department -- or the administrative

14 department in Skopje; and from 1986, you were junior inspector in the

15 independent inspectorate for special purposes. Now was that the beginning

16 your professional career as I have set out and in the years that I have

17 quoted?

18 A. Yes, you can say so.

19 Q. In January 1993, you became a senior inspector for clandestine

20 weapons marketing, and in 1985, you became the main inspector for the

21 clandestine drug trade, right, are those the facts?

22 A. Yes, but in the period between 1986 and 1993 I was promoted and I

23 moved up the promotion scale, so I had more senior titles.

24 Q. Tell me, please, at one point were you given a managerial post in

25 the Ministry of the Interior?

1 A. Not until 1993, if I understood you well.

2 Q. Is it true that from 1996 until 1998 you were appointed to the

3 duty of chief of the administration for trafficking in the crime police,

4 and from 1998 to the year 2000, you were the head of the department for

5 weapons trafficking, unlawful weapons trafficking?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. What duty were you appointed to in May 2000, if you can remember?

8 A. In May 2000, I was appointed assistant to the head of the SVR,

9 Skopje.

10 Q. How long did you occupy that post?

11 A. Until the end of 2003 -- 2002, excuse me.

12 Q. What did you do after that? And what assignments are you engaged

13 on today?

14 A. In 2002, I was briefly head of the administration for illegal

15 trafficking of drugs within the crime police, and then I was appointed

16 assistant to the under-secretary of the crime police.

17 Q. And today?

18 A. And today I'm senior inspector in illegal trafficking with arms,

19 within the SVR Skopje.

20 Q. Thank you. Now tell me, in addition to your regular education

21 and having graduated from the faculty of security, have you had any

22 additional training or additional education, equipping you to conduct your

23 professional duties?

24 A. Yes. In the period after 1995, I attended several courses and

25 seminars related to the work in the administration for illegal trafficking

1 with drugs and also I attended several courses related to management.

2 Q. Can you tell us where those courses and seminars which you

3 attended from 1995 to 2002 or to the present day were held? In Macedonia

4 or somewhere else outside Macedonia?

5 A. There were courses in Paris, courses in Germany, Bulgaria. Also

6 some courses at the faculty of security in Macedonia.

7 Q. Can you also tell us, Mr. Stojanovski, who the organisers of those

8 courses were, or seminars, which you attended within the frameworks of

9 your professional training?

10 A. Well, the French Institute for Higher Education was the organiser

11 of the course in Paris. One of the institutes of the federal police was

12 the organiser of the one in Germany. In Bulgaria, the course was

13 organised by the US Drugs Department, and the one I mentioned was

14 organised by the faculty of security in Skopje. And there were several

15 seminars organised or implemented in cooperation with certain bodies of

16 the European Union and the Council of Europe as well.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, in view of your education and training and

18 professional experience, tell me please whether you know the organisations

19 and competency of the Ministry of Interior, what the organisation set-up

20 in MOI is?

21 A. Yes, can you say so.

22 Q. And can you tell us how that is regulated, the powers and

23 authority that the Ministry of Interior has. How is that regulated?

24 A. The competencies of the Ministry of the Interior are primarily

25 regulated through the Law on Internal affairs and the Law on Organisation

1 of the State Administration. Of course, there were other laws that also

2 give us, as members of the Ministry of the Interior, certain tasks and

3 duties.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I'm going to use

5 some documents, I'd like to ask the usher's assistance to provide the

6 Trial Chamber, the witness, and my colleagues with a set of documents that

7 I'm going to use in the next part of my examination-in-chief.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, would you please take a look at a document after

11 tab 2 in your binder. It is P86, Exhibit P86. And I'm going to ask you

12 to take a look at -- let me ask you if you've found the document first?

13 A. Yes. This is the Law on Internal Affairs of the Republic of

14 Macedonia.

15 Q. P86, yes. But we seem to have a different document on our

16 screens.

17 Now we have the right one.

18 You said straight away that was the Law on Internal Affairs of the

19 Republic of Macedonia, so I assume you're well acquainted with this law,

20 right?

21 A. Yes, of course. The law --

22 Q. Take a look at Article 1, please. And since you know the law, you

23 can perhaps answer my question straight away and tell me what Article 1

24 represents, what does it regulate?

25 A. This Article essentially defines the competences of the Ministry

1 of Interior.

2 Q. Can you tell me who it is who puts into practice all the points

3 stipulated in Article 1 of the law?

4 A. Well, these tasks are carried out by two bodies within the

5 Ministry of the Interior. One of them is the public security bureau and

6 the other one is the directorate for security and counter-intelligence.

7 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, can you tell me in what way these organs within

8 the ministry perform their duties, work as organs of the Ministry of

9 Interior, within their competence and authority?

10 A. Well, these are independent bodies that have their internal

11 organisational structure that is governed by certain rule books in the

12 ministry and where the competences of those organisational units are

13 defined and their working tasks.

14 Q. When you spoke about your own professional work and except for a

15 short period of time when you started working and worked in the area of

16 defence preparations, I noticed that all the rest of the time you worked

17 in a specific department of the Ministry of the Interior. So can you tell

18 the Court where you actually worked within the ministry?

19 A. Yes. With the exception of that period that you mentioned, I

20 spent my entire career - and I still am there - in the department or

21 within the crime police in the services that work in the area of crime

22 repression.

23 Q. Tell me, please, this Law on Internal Affairs which you have

24 before you, does it regulate the basic competences and tasks of the crime

25 police, which is the department you worked in and which you work for today

1 and carry out your professional duties?

2 A. Yes. This law contains provisions governing the work and setting

3 forth the competences of the crime police.

4 Q. I'm going to ask you now to take a look at Article 12 together

5 with me, which is on N008-984 of the Macedonian and on page N000-8965 of

6 the English version.

7 What I want to ask you is this first: Do you recognise the

8 Article, and, if so, tell me what that Article regulates?

9 A. Yes, that is the Article 12 regulating the scope of work of the

10 crime police and enumerating the competences of it.

11 Q. And can you tell me what the basic competences are.

12 A. Prevention of crime, detection and apprehension of perpetrators --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness to slow

14 down.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Would you speak more slowly. The interpreters have asked us to

17 slow down.

18 A. [No interpretation]

19 Q. In addition to the Law on Internal Affairs --

20 JUDGE PARKER: There seems to be an interruption in the English

21 interpretation.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now?

23 JUDGE PARKER: I think we may now be on the air.

24 I think perhaps we should have the last answer again,

25 Ms. Residovic.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Yes, Mr. Stojanovski, would you repeat what you just said and give

3 your answer again to my question. And the question was, what the

4 competences are according to the law under Article 12 and which you, as

5 the crime police had.

6 A. Pursuant to Article 12, the crime police performs the following

7 duties: It works on preventing criminal offences, detecting and

8 apprehending the perpetrators of criminal offences, police forensic

9 activities, supervision of residence and movement of aliens, inspection and

10 supervision in protection from fires and explosions, as well as other

11 activities from Article 1 of this law.

12 Q. I'd now like to ask you, Mr. Stojanovski, to tell me this. Is

13 that the only law which defines the work of the crime police, or are there

14 other rules and regulations about that?

15 A. There are also other regulations. One of the main ones, although

16 all laws are important, is the Law on Criminal Procedure. However, there

17 are also laws that provide for the obligations for the crime police, for

18 example, the Law on Arms, the Law on The Border, and so forth.

19 Q. Thank you. And except for those law, for the law, your powers and

20 the way in which you execute those powers, are they regulated by other

21 regulations that are not actually laws?

22 A. Yes. The work is also regulated by many by-laws, rules of

23 procedure, and internal acts of the Ministry of the Interior.

24 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, when you spoke about your powers and competence,

25 I understood it that in 2001, you were the assistant head of the sector

1 for internal affairs for Skopje and that you were the assistant for the

2 crime police, in the crime police. Did I understand that correctly?

3 A. Yes, this is correct.

4 Q. Now, before this Court, Mr. Stojanovski, we heard testimony from a

5 number of witnesses about the work and organisation of the Ministry of the

6 Interior, and so I'm not going to ask you about what we have heard about

7 from other witnesses, but in view of the position you occupied in the

8 security sector, Skopje, I'd like to ask you a few questions. And, in

9 order to do that, would you first take a look at the following document,

10 which you will find after tab 4, and this is Exhibit 1D107.

11 Can you tell me first whether you recognise this document, and is

12 it one of the rules or book of rules which is important for the work of

13 the crime police?

14 A. Yes. This document is in fact the Rules governing the organisation

15 and work of the Ministry of the Interior and one of the basic book of rules

16 which we implement in our everyday work.

17 Q. Before I ask you some questions about the competence and authority

18 as set out in this book of rules, tell me whether you know who it is in

19 the ministry who enacts books of rules like this and other rules and

20 regulations. Who does that, which authority?

21 A. The competency for drafting and enacting books of rules lies with

22 the minister of the interior. He is bound by the Law on the Interior to

23 enact acts such as these.

24 Q. Thank you. Tell me now, please, whether you know whether there

25 are other rules and regulations which authorise the minister in passing

1 general acts and bringing in general acts of this kind?

2 A. Yes. I believe the Law on Organisation of the Civil Service

3 generally lay out the competencies and authorisations of ministers in the

4 Republic of Macedonia.

5 Q. Thank you. At the beginning you said that the work of the organs

6 of the interior were carried out within two basic bodies which

7 independently carried out their duties which are regulated by law.

8 Tell me, now, please, which body does the crime police belong to?

9 A. The crime police is part of the bureau for public security.

10 Q. How does that bureau for public security -- how is it structured?

11 Is it divided up in any way, in order to perform these duties?

12 A. As I previously said, the bureau for public security is a body of

13 the Ministry of the Interior, which independently carries out its duties

14 and tasks. For performing these duties, its internal organisation

15 comprises of two, I would call, basic parts: One, the unit of police,

16 what is often called police in uniforms; and the other unit of crime

17 police. And, of course, there are also other organisational units which

18 are no less important, but it is these two units that work for these

19 units. They all work as support for the work carried out by these two

20 units.

21 Q. This public security bureau and the Ministry of Interior in

22 general, are they organised in a centralised manner? Are there branch

23 offices in which affairs that the Ministry of Interior does are carried

24 out?

25 A. For the purpose of carrying out the internal affairs, the

1 territorial principle is applied. There are organisational units which

2 are charged with carrying out the internal matters on a given territory.

3 These are sectors for internal affairs, which in --

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting you,

5 but my learned friend across the way would like to say something.

6 MR. SAXON: No, no, I can easily wait until the witness finishes,

7 please.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Q. Then go ahead, witness, and finish what you were saying. You were

10 describing the regional organisation.

11 A. As I said, they are organisational units based on a territorial

12 principle for the purpose of carrying out internal affairs. These are

13 sector of internal affairs, which contain units for internal affairs, as

14 operative units.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Saxon.

17 MR. SAXON: Just as a point of clarification, Your Honour, I'm

18 sorry for the interruption. At least in the English transcript the

19 responses to my learned colleague's questions are put in the present

20 tense, for example regarding the structure and organisation of the

21 Ministry of Interior. And I'm just wondering as a point of clarification

22 is the witness speaking about structure and organisation at present time,

23 or as structures and organisation existed back in 2001. That's all.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, what you are speaking about now, is that related

1 to your knowledge about the structure that existed in 2001, when you were

2 the assistant to the head of the SVR Skopje in 2001?

3 A. This is how I understood you, because the questions were related

4 to my position at that time, which I had at the Ministry of the Interior

5 at the time, and this is the organisational structure which I listed.

6 Currently the Ministry of Interior has a different organisational

7 structure.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. I believe that it is now clear.

9 You explained that regional structure within which there are

10 sectors for internal affairs and departments for internal affairs --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Units for internal affairs, interpreter's

12 correction.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. -- tell me, please, considering the post you held in 2001, were

15 you at that moment superior to the units for internal affairs, OVRs, on

16 the territory of the city of Skopje?

17 A. My tasks and my job duties were to perform the tasks appointed to

18 the head of SVR Skopje. Most of my duties were to alleviate the

19 management, which meant that I did not have a managerial position

20 vis-a-vis the other units. What I did was to facilitate more efficient

21 and quality execution of the functions of the chief of SVR Skopje. My

22 relationship was towards the head, the chief of SVR Skopje, and so were my

23 tasks.

24 Q. And speaking practically about what you were -- tasks that you

25 were carrying out, what was your relation and communication to the OVRs on

1 the territory of the city of Skopje?

2 A. I don't know if I was clear enough. Let me put it this way: The

3 head of SVR Skopje directly is the direct superior of the heads of the

4 OVRs.

5 Is this enough as a clarification?

6 Q. Yes, it is completely clear. And considering that you, as you

7 stated, were the assistant to the head of the SVR Skopje for the crime

8 police, how can we understand what you are saying? I assisted the head of

9 the SVR Skopje in performing his duties. Were you, in a way, still

10 communicate and what were you gathering, if I may put it that way, from

11 the branch offices of the Ministry of Interior?

12 A. One of the tasks which the head of SVR Skopje has is to coordinate

13 activities of the OVRs. I was charged to follow the situation in the OVRs

14 from the point of view of the crime police and to suggest, if necessary,

15 to the head of the SVR certain solutions which could help him carry out

16 his function of coordination.

17 Q. Did you have a managerial position at that time, towards anyone?

18 A. Yes. In SVR Skopje, there were organisational units which were

19 established with the aim of securing support for the work of the OVRs.

20 These organisational units needed to have personnel with special skills,

21 especially trained personnel, and equipped with special material and

22 technical means.

23 Q. When explaining your role, you stated a while ago that one of the

24 main functions of the sector was the function of coordination.

25 Tell me, what are the functions that the sector for internal

1 affairs has as a whole, within the Ministry of the Interior, and

2 especially in relation to the units, the OVRs, that are within it?

3 A. I will mention the two most important things. One we already

4 mentioned, the coordination of activities between the OVRs; and, secondly,

5 securing support for the OVRs. If, in their everyday work, they face the

6 need of specialised personnel or are faced with the need of police

7 forensic activities, we were obliged to secure this for them. This was

8 done with respect of principles of effective and efficient performance of

9 duty, and due to economic reasons, it would be irrational for each OVR to

10 be equipped with equipment which is expensive and which will not be

11 sufficiently utilized.

12 Q. Could you give an example?

13 A. For example, the unit for crime police is equipped for carrying

14 out on-site investigations. If, on the territory of an OVR - in Skopje at

15 that time there were five such OVRs - needed to carry out an on-site

16 investigation, they requested it from us and we secured it for them. This

17 is the assistance we secured for them.

18 In the case of yet another example. In -- if in the course of its

19 work, they came to an understanding that certain criminal offences

20 overlapped with other OVRs, then the sector -- or, rather, the unit for

21 organised crime and coordination came in to coordinate the activities

22 between the involved OVRs.

23 Also, another example, cases where -- where adequately trained

24 personnel was required, for example, in the area of organised crime.

25 Q. Thank you. I understood now what were the main roles of the

1 sector for internal affairs.

2 And tell me now, in 2001, what were the competences and the

3 responsibilities, as well as the organisation, in the units for internal

4 affairs, OVRs?

5 A. The unit of internal affairs has police stations as part of its

6 composition, also sector for criminalistic affairs, and a unit for

7 analytics. These were all charged to act on the territory covered by the

8 OVR. I mean these departments. The departments act on the territory of

9 the OVR.

10 Q. Maybe we should clarify this a bit further.

11 Tell me, in the area of crime police, who was the -- carrying out

12 the operations that the Law on Internal Affairs prescribed? So who had

13 the duty to detect perpetrators of crimes, et cetera, et cetera, on a

14 daily basis?

15 A. I don't know whether we understand each other on this. On a given

16 territory, there is an OVR which is in charge of carrying out the tasks

17 listed in the Law on the Interior, on that given territory.

18 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, you stated there are police stations there, also

19 the crime police department and the analytics. In those OVRs, in those

20 departments, there are -- the officers are employed by the Ministry of the

21 Interior. What are the competences of those officers?

22 A. Their status is that of authorised official persons as all other

23 police workers.

24 Q. And what are the ways in which they perform their duties? What is

25 the basis for the performance of their duties?

1 A. I'm not sure that I understand you well. However, they work on a

2 given territory and they're independent in carrying out their work.

3 They're independent and bound to carry out the law.

4 Q. And who is responsible for the work of all those police officers

5 in the police station, in the unit for internal affairs, whether it is the

6 analytics, the crime police or whatever else?

7 A. I believe I mentioned that this is the head of the OVR. He is the

8 head of the unit and he is directly in charge of the departments and the

9 police stations which I mentioned.

10 Q. And if by chance those members of the MOI were not performing

11 their duties in accordance with the law, as you stated, who would then be

12 the person who would need to raise the issue of their responsibility?

13 A. This is their direct superior. In this case, this would be the

14 head of the OVR.

15 Q. So from what you stated, my understanding is that the superior

16 over the OVR is the head of the sector for internal affairs, Skopje, or

17 the assistant to the minister for internal affairs for Skopje, while the

18 rest of you who are employed with the SVR Skopje don't have superior

19 duties over the OVR. Is that your evidence thus far, or have I

20 misconstrued it maybe?

21 A. I think we understand each other well.

22 Q. Thank you. And considering this situation, were you able to issue

23 orders to the heads of the OVRs on the territory of the city of Skopje?

24 A. No. In accordance with my position, I could not issue orders to

25 the OVRs. However, on the other hand, they had the obligation to inform

1 us of things that happened which were on their territory and under their

2 competency.

3 Q. And could you tell me, in 2001 who was the head of the sector for

4 security for Skopje?

5 A. This was Mr. Krstevski.

6 Q. I asked you for SVR Skopje. Maybe ...

7 A. There was a change. Up until September, it was Mr. Efremov. From

8 September onwards, Mr. Kocovski. My apology.

9 Q. You mentioned Krstevski. What duties did he have in 2001?

10 A. He was one of the heads of the OVRs in Skopje. We had five such

11 OVRs, and he was the head of OVR Cair.

12 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, if somebody were to testify to the contrary,

13 quite the opposite to what you said in this Court, and if they were to say

14 that you yourself were the individual who was superior to the heads of the

15 departments of the internal affairs, in this view, what would you say to

16 that kind of testimony and those assertions?

17 A. There are two explanations. Either someone is lying or that

18 someone has not worked in SVR Skopje.

19 Q. Thank you. Now let's go back to what the crime police does, the

20 duties of the crime police.

21 You said a moment ago that the OVR, the departments of the

22 internal affairs, are engaged in the affairs of the crime police. Now,

23 this department, does it have a separate title, a separate name, or is it

24 just called "crime police"?

25 A. This is a department for operative works.

1 Q. And if view of this title or name, what are its tasks linked to

2 carrying out the work of the crime police? What level of work is this, of

3 this operations department?

4 A. These are employees of the crime police who, according to their

5 name, are operative and directly carry out tasks. This is the basic

6 thing.

7 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, you said that one of the important laws that

8 determine the work of the crime police was the Law on Criminal Procedure

9 of the Republic of Macedonia. That's right, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'd now like to ask you to look at a document which you'll find

12 after tab 3. It is Exhibit P88.

13 Do you recognise this law, Mr. Stojanovski?

14 A. Yes. This is the Law on Criminal Procedure.

15 Q. Now, underneath the title "Law on Criminal Procedure," you will

16 find the revised version of the text from the Official Gazette of the

17 Republic of Macedonia. Now my understanding of this is that in the text

18 we find certain provisions which were in -- adopted or enacted after 2001.

19 And that's why I want to ask you whether the amendments in this Official

20 Gazette, 44/02, whether they were amendments which had to do with the

21 tasks of the organs of the interior in criminal proceedings?

22 A. No. These changes did not change the position of the crime

23 police. This happened somewhat later; I believe it was in 2004.

24 Q. So we can use this text of the law with regards to the tasks of

25 the organs of the interior in the scope of criminal procedure?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Before I ask you something about your remitt and your competencies

3 tell me to what extent do the organs of the interior, what links do they

4 have to the public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia, and what is

5 your understanding, briefly, of the position of the office of the public

6 prosecutor in relation to the pre-trial procedure?

7 A. If I can express myself freely, usually sometimes they say that

8 they're the head and we are the hands. This means that the public

9 prosecutor and his obligations allow him to ask certain tasks of us and to

10 give guidelines for our work.

11 Q. As you said that you worked on the uncovering of crimes, now, does

12 the public prosecutor have any competencies within that regard? But

13 before you go ahead and answer, let me ask you this: Do you know, in

14 general terms, that in keeping with the rules and regulations of the

15 Republic of Macedonia, that criminal procedure actually starts? When does

16 it start, at what point?

17 A. With the start of the investigation. According to our legislation

18 there are two phases: A pre-trial phase and criminal procedure. Our

19 competencies as a Ministry of the Interior and members of the crime police

20 relate to the pre-trial procedure and, with exception, in the criminal

21 procedure when we act upon the request of the investigating judge.

22 Q. Thank you. That's precisely what I wanted us to clarify. And as

23 you said, that the -- well, you said that the prosecutor was the head and

24 that you were the hands. So that was a colloquial description. But in

25 this pre-criminal procedure stage, what is the role of the public

1 prosecutor, in relation to the tasks that you yourself have in conformity

2 with the law?

3 A. He is responsible for detecting and prosecuting of perpetrator of

4 criminal offences.

5 Q. And with relation to the stage before criminal proceedings go

6 ahead, does he have any special powers?

7 A. Surely the law gives him such authorisations.

8 Q. I'm now going to ask to you look at this code on criminal

9 procedure and to look at Article 42 of that code, which is on page

10 N001-9029 of the Macedonian; and the English version is to be found on

11 page N001-9187, or page 11 in the English.

12 This is a provision, or Article, which, sets out the duties of the

13 public prosecutor. I'd just like to draw your attention to point (2) of

14 (1) where it says that: "For crimes which are prosecuted ex officio the

15 public prosecutor is duty-bound to take necessary measures in relation to

16 uncovering the crimes and apprehending the criminals and to direct the

17 preliminary procedure, preliminary procedure."

18 Now tell me, please, what -- in addition to the fact that he

19 uncovers crimes himself and attempts to uncover the perpetrators, what, in

20 your opinion, does it mean when it says that in the preliminary procedure

21 he directs, in fact, the preliminary procedure. What does that mean?

22 What must he do? What are his duties in that respect? And what is your

23 position vis-a-vis the public prosecutor?

24 A. I believe that I stated that the public prosecutor holds a

25 superior position over the crime police and that they have the duty, the

1 public prosecutor has the duty, to take measures to uncover crimes and

2 their perpetrators.

3 Also the public prosecutor is the only one who can ask that an

4 investigation -- request that an investigation is carried out.

5 Q. Thank you. Now to clarify this still further by using an example,

6 when an organ of the interior - for instance, you, the crime police -

7 inform the prosecutor about an event which you had reason to believe was a

8 crime, what is the procedure put in place and what is your relationship?

9 What must you do after that has been established?

10 A. I think I mentioned already we have a subordinate position. Our

11 task is to follow, to execute the request and to follow the directions

12 given to us by the public prosecutor.

13 Q. Since you worked to uncover crimes yourself and the perpetrators

14 thereof, how do -- does the crime police, as part of the interior, how do

15 you inform the prosecutor about the information you obtain?

16 A. There are several situations here. If, in the course of our work,

17 we arrive at an information that a crime has been committed, and if we

18 have sufficient relevant facts to substantiate the notion that such crime

19 had been committed and the identity of the perpetrator is unknown to us,

20 then we file a criminal report against an unknown perpetrator.

21 Q. And if the perpetrator is known to you?

22 A. If we have a suspect for the crime, then usually, in the practice,

23 we file a criminal report that might be in writing, might be oral. What

24 is important is -- however, the law provides other ways in which the

25 public prosecutor can be informed of that issue. This also applies to the

1 cases when the perpetrator is unknown.

2 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, if I understood you correctly a moment ago, you

3 said that if the perpetrator or perpetrators were unknown and the police

4 has enough facts to go by, which indicate that a crime had indeed been

5 committed, then they file a criminal report against perpetrators unknown.

6 Now, tell me, please, Mr. Stojanovski, if -- or, rather, what

7 happens if the organs of the interior and the crime police just have

8 rumours to go by or information that hasn't been checked out with the

9 facts that a crime had been committed? What are your duties in cases of

10 that kind? For example, if you read about something in the papers, if the

11 papers say that such-and-such a thing happened.

12 A. Yes. Well, we have the duty to carry out checking of the facts

13 and to provide at least minimum of relevant facts and information that

14 could corroborate the notion that a crime had indeed been committed.

15 Q. And if you don't find those relevant facts to back up your

16 suspicions, what do you do then?

17 A. Then usually the case is archived or, as we say, it is left at

18 stand by. So if any new information arrived, they could be connected,

19 correlated.

20 Q. So what you're saying is this: If you have insufficient proof and

21 evidence for reasonable doubt that a crime had been committed, if you

22 don't have the grounds for that, is it still your duty to inform the

23 public prosecutor?

24 A. If we have not succeeded in establishing or if we do not have

25 relevant information that a crime had been committed, then we don't have

1 the obligation to inform the public prosecutor. Then the case remains in

2 the archives of our service.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. However - I apologise - there is another position. As well as we

5 can react, the same obligation belongs to the public prosecutor. Maybe he

6 chooses to involve us, but he does not have that duty. If he chooses to

7 involve us, then we have the duty to follow his orders and to take

8 measures and activities that agree with the directions given by the public

9 prosecutor.

10 Q. So if the public prosecutor has heard about the same case, he

11 might have read it in the papers, for instance, and he considers that the

12 event might constitute a crime, then he selects the organs of the interior

13 and tells them what to do, issues instructions to them. And once that is

14 done, what do you then do with the material? Do you archive it or do you

15 have other duties?

16 A. No. In that case, we have the duty to inform the public

17 prosecutor of the measures that we had taken. And depending on the

18 outcome, we either file a report against a perpetrator unknown, if we had

19 established that a crime had indeed been committed, or, we inform the

20 prosecutor by an Official Note that we had not established that a crime

21 had been committed.

22 Q. I would now like to ask you, Mr. Stojanovski, to take a look at

23 Article 144, paragraph 2, of the Code on Criminal Procedure, which is to

24 be found on N001-92058 of the Macedonian; and in English it is on page 34.

25 Yes, that's right, page 34.

1 As you explained the different duties and the possibilities open

2 to the police and the public prosecutor, I'm going to read out para 2 of

3 this Article, and I'd like you to tell me whether what it says here is

4 confirmation of what you have testified about in this Court, or, are there

5 certain matters that you would like to clarify further.

6 It says: "If the public prosecutor cannot evaluate from the

7 report whether the contents of the report are probable, or if the data of

8 the report do not provide a sufficient basis to decide whether opening of

9 an investigation is to be requested, or if the public prosecutor had only

10 heard allegations that a crime had been committed, especially if the

11 perpetrator is unknown, the public prosecutor, if he is unable to do

12 it himself or through other bodies, he will request the Ministry

13 of Interior to collect necessary information and take other measures to

14 uncover the crime and the perpetrator."

15 And then in brackets the Articles 142 and 143 are quoted. And

16 then the public prosecutor may always request the Ministry of the Interior

17 to inform the prosecutor of the measures undertaken.

18 Is this the provision that you mentioned as the prosecutor being

19 able, alone or in other way, to verify information but that when you are

20 requested to provide information, then you have the duty to inform the

21 prosecutor about the measures undertaken?

22 A. Yes, this is what I tried to explain.

23 Q. Now within the frameworks of that provision, we see that the code

24 refers to Articles 142 and 143, do you know what Articles 142 and 143

25 regulate? Whose rights and duties are regulated in those two Articles?

1 A. It indicates the duties of the Ministry of the Interior.

2 Q. And, if I have understood you correctly, when you answered a

3 moment ago and told us who carries all this out. I think you told us

4 that.

5 A. I believe that I mentioned that in the units for internal affairs,

6 OVRs, there are subunits for operations and for crime police, and they

7 have the duty to perform those tasks. Of course this does not preclude

8 the uniformed police from taking certain actions, but usually it is the

9 crime police that takes and performs those duties.

10 Q. Tell me, please, in carrying out the duties set out in these

11 Articles of the Code governing criminal procedure, in practice, what is

12 the most usual way to go about things? How does the crime police and

13 other organs of the interior arrive at information that a crime has

14 actually been committed?

15 A. The usual way is when a complainant makes a report.

16 Q. And who files a criminal report providing you with the

17 information, usually?

18 A. Well, in cases of thefts, usually the owner is the complainant.

19 In cases of homicides; that is the victim.

20 So the injured parties are the ones who are the complainants.

21 Q. What is the importance of this link between the internal affairs

22 organs with the injured party, in uncovering both the crime and the

23 perpetrator thereof?

24 A. The importance is major. Primarily, since, as I mentioned before,

25 we already have -- when the injured party makes a report, we already have

1 some relevant facts that indicate that a crime had been committed, while

2 the other aspect is that the victim can provide very useful data. The

3 injured party can provide us very useful data that will guide us towards

4 uncovering the perpetrator of that crime.

5 Q. And vice versa, in a reverse situation if the injured party or

6 plaintiff does not want, for any reason, or rejects cooperation with the

7 police, does not wish to cooperate, what effect does that have on the

8 possibility of you carrying out your tasks properly? How does that affect

9 your work?

10 A. We have had such cases in the practice. I can say that it is

11 exceptionally difficult to process them. It is practically impossible

12 without the cooperation of the injured party.

13 Q. Now you've answered some of my questions in great detail and very

14 precisely. And a moment ago you were saying that some of your powers or

15 the authority you have and work was regulated by rules and regulations.

16 Do you remember saying that?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Your Honours, this is a

19 good time to take a break. I don't want to go on for too long.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Residovic. We will have the

21 break now and resume -- is half an hour enough for a break, do you think,

22 for your comfort, sir?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at a quarter past 4.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, would you look at the document that is found

5 after tab 8. It is Exhibit P96, and the page in Macedonian is

6 042-4644 [as interpreted].

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

8 comment just two Articles -- to hear comments on two Articles, but I would

9 like to tell you that it is a document we discussed yesterday. We

10 discussed it and the Prosecutor discussed it, too. There's a draft

11 translation, and -- no, I have been informed by my colleague that what I

12 was about to say concerned another document, so not this document. I made

13 a mistake because I know there was a problem with this document too but

14 not the type of problem that I was going raise.

15 Q. Anyway, would the witness look at Article 103 and 104 of these

16 rules.

17 Tell me, first of all, is this an important set of rules,

18 important for the work of the crime police?

19 A. Yes, and it is being implemented in our everyday work.

20 Q. Article 103 is on page ERN --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could Ms. Residovic repeat the numbers, please.

22 It was too fast.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] R042-4638, and the English version

24 is on the following page. I have to find the page number. I don't seem

25 to have it.

1 It's on the screen.

2 Q. So would you look at Article 103 first, please. And with respect

3 to that Article, I'd like to say that part of the text is being revised.

4 So I'm going to read the Articles out and the interpreters can interpret

5 to avoid any problems.

6 Mr. Stojanovski, in Article 103, it says the following: "In the

7 case of grounds of suspicion that a criminal act has been committed which

8 is prosecuted ex officio, the authorised official persons undertake the

9 necessary measures to find the perpetrator of the criminal offence so as

10 to avoid the accomplice of hiding or fleeting, to discover and secure

11 evidence of the criminal offence and the artifacts that can serve as

12 evidence in the criminal procedure and to collect information that can be

13 of benefit for successful performance of the criminal procedure.

14 Now, in connection with that, Mr. Stojanovski, I'd like to ask you

15 this: In the first paragraph, it says that the measures are undertaken if

16 there are grounds to believe that a crime had taken place.

17 Now, what I'd like to ask you is this: Is it the principle task

18 of the police, especially the crime police, to establish whether there are

19 grounds to suspect that a crime had been committed?

20 A. Yes. I believe this was mentioned in your previous statement,

21 that, first, there has to be relevant information and to corroborate a

22 fact that a criminal offence has been committed.

23 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, I've shown you these two Articles so that you can

24 confirm whether these Articles reflect what you testified to in answering

25 my questions.

1 Article 104 states the following: "In order to establish the

2 existence of grounds of suspicion that a criminal offence has been

3 committed, it is necessary to know certain relevant facts and data on the

4 basis of which it is possible seriously to presume that a crime offence

5 has been committed."

6 Now, that provision - and this is my question - does that

7 provision in fact confirm what you yourself were saying when you said that

8 you, first of all, have to have grounds to believe that a crime had been

9 committed, and that once you had those grounds, serious grounds, you would

10 take steps?

11 A. I hope that I was able to explain this when -- in my previous

12 answer, but this is what I meant.

13 Q. Thank you. You said that the operative organs of the OVR were

14 organs which, independently, took steps to check and establish whether an

15 incident constituted a crime or not, and if it did constitute a crime, to

16 proceed further and uncover the perpetrators?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. The interior affairs organs, when are they duty-bound to take

19 those measures? Is there a deadline, a period within which they are

20 supposed to take those steps?

21 A. Measures are under taken until the public prosecutor is informed,

22 or until the investigating judge becomes involved.

23 Q. For example, if there are grounds to suspect that a traffic

24 incident, for example, was a crime in -- as stipulated by the code

25 governing traffic, what is the -- what steps should the police take and

1 when do their duties cease? This is to say, when is the case taken over

2 by other organs? When do other organs take on the responsibility to

3 initiate further proceedings?

4 A. The procedure should be as follows: The crime police, members of

5 the Ministry of Interior, are bound to secure the site, to undertake

6 measures to preserve evidence and while this is done the investigating

7 judge and the public prosecutor is notified.

8 At this moment once they are notified of the incident, they can

9 decide whether the on-site investigation will be given over to the MOI, or

10 whether they will come to the site and will directly lead with the

11 investigation.

12 In the second alternative, if they do come to the site once we

13 have notified them, the obligations of the members of the MOI - that is to

14 say, the crime police - cease. This means that they are obliged to act

15 following the orders of the investigating judge.

16 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, can the police influence the investigating

17 judge's decision, how he is going to rule?

18 A. In no way and in no case.

19 Q. Now, when the court has been informed by the police, is the police

20 duty-bound to file another criminal report to the prosecutor, or, rather,

21 to inform the judge once again about the event?

22 A. In accordance with my experience, if the investigating judge comes

23 to the site, he is duty-bound to prepare minutes, that is to say, to

24 document the case, and this means an end of our duties for further

25 communication.

1 Q. Thank you. You've already told me that the operative organs, the

2 operatives of the interior affairs department, take up all measures that

3 the police does to uncover the perpetrators in their particular area. And

4 specifically, if we take the town of Skopje, for example, how many such

5 units or departments of internal affairs do you have, and where did their

6 responsibilities end with respect to uncovering crimes and uncovering the

7 perpetrators of crimes?

8 A. As I said earlier when I was explaining the organisational

9 structure of SVR Skopje, I mentioned that there are five OVRs. They are

10 the only ones that carry out the internal matters in the area for which

11 that OVR has been established.

12 After having taken all the measures, especially until the

13 notification of the investigating judge and the public prosecutor, I

14 believe I already said earlier, their duties end.

15 Q. I think that you've explained that quite clearly. So the duties

16 of the police, to take further steps, after it has informed the prosecutor

17 or the judge, ceases there.

18 Now, tell me, please, is the police duty-bound later on, if the

19 prosecutor or the judge requests it to do something, whether it must

20 follow up on that?

21 A. Yes. The obligation ends. However, we are duty-bound to act upon

22 the requests or the orders issued by the investigating judge.

23 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, it is clear to me that your duties have ceased.

24 Now, what I would like to know is this: Can the police gather

25 some other evidence, for instance, and can it refuse to take over

1 information which, after it has informed the prosecutor or judge, new

2 information has arrived?

3 A. The judge is the one who decides to whom a certain task for a case

4 will be assigned to. However, in the case which you have just now

5 mentioned, the police can inform the investigating judge or the public

6 prosecutor about information it receives afterwards. Therefore, the

7 police can do so.

8 Q. Just to be sure that I understood you correctly, what you've just

9 said, did you say in fact that it is the duty of the police to take steps

10 until it informs the prosecutor or the judge and when -- once it has done

11 so, it can undertake other measures but it is no longer obliged to, it no

12 longer has the obligation to do so?

13 A. There is why I used the word "can."

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, let's see what happens in the period

15 of time before the prosecutor or judge has been informed about a specific

16 event.

17 You said that the measures are taken by the operatives, the

18 operative organs, or, rather, the internal affairs department or unit.

19 Now, the internal affairs unit, in a given area, can it -- before it

20 informs the prosecutor or the judge, can it be relieved of its duties of

21 investigation?

22 A. These are legal obligations, and I believe it cannot.

23 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Stojanovski --

24 A. If I understand you correctly. Would you -- could you please

25 repeat your question.

1 Q. We are talking about the situation before the internal affairs

2 organ has informed the public prosecutor or the investigating judge.

3 A. Apology.

4 Q. Well, if I understand you correctly you said up until that time

5 the internal affairs organs are duty-bound and had the responsibility of

6 uncovering a crime and the perpetrators thereof. Right?

7 A. This is correct.

8 Q. Now let me take it a step further. During that period of time

9 when you had that obligation, when the internal affairs has that

10 obligation and responsibility within a commune or the OVR, for instance,

11 that organ, can it be relieved of those duties? Can it be relieved of its

12 duty to react when a crime has taken place or to investigate a crime or

13 relieved of identifying a perpetrator or any other measures which

14 generally it is duty-bound to undertake during that stage, until the case

15 is taken over by the prosecutor and the judge --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down and wait for

17 interpretation. Thank you.

18 A. [Previous translation continues] ... contrary to the legal

19 obligations.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So can he be relieved of that duty?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly ask the witness to repeat

23 the answer.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Yes, Witness, would you repeat the answer, please.

1 Can they be relieved of that duty before they inform the

2 prosecutor or judge?

3 A. It cannot.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Stojanovski, if before this Court somebody

5 were to testify and say that he did not take steps, the adequate steps

6 because, at that point in time, there were persons superior to him in the

7 place he was at, what would your comments to that be? What would you say

8 to that? Is it possible that somebody who is duty-bound by law to react,

9 can he be relieved of that duty because there was a superior person there?

10 A. There is no such case in practice. It does not relieve that

11 person of his duty.

12 Q. You said you haven't had such cases in practice. But by law, can

13 they be relieved of their duties?

14 A. No, not at all.

15 Q. So the presence of a superior officer in a place where a crime has

16 been committed does not relieve the organs of the interior from conducting

17 their duties who are duty-bound to act?

18 A. In essence, it doesn't matter who is present there. They are

19 duty-bound to carry out the law.

20 Q. If a unit within the department of the interior is not capable of

21 taking steps and measures itself, what happens then, in practice and

22 pursuant to the rules and regulations of the MOI of the Republic of

23 Macedonia?

24 A. In that case, they can request assistance from the SVR, from the

25 sector of internal affairs.

1 Q. And based on your experience, can any operative measures be taken

2 by the ministry itself, at the level of the Republic, in uncovering crimes

3 and the perpetrators thereof?

4 A. According to the Law on Internal Affairs they have no operative

5 functions.

6 Q. How about the minister of the interior?

7 A. In particular, the minister. His competencies are defined in the

8 Law on Internal Affairs. According to those competencies, there is no

9 mention of an obligation pertaining to operative tasks.

10 Q. And if I were to ask you this, Mr. Stojanovski, if I were to put

11 it this way, now the fact that this legal obligation does not exist, that

12 is to say that the minister should take some operative steps to uncover

13 crimes, does that mean that the minister should not be interested in the

14 state of affairs where crime is concerned, or do you mean to say something

15 else?

16 A. One cannot go to extremes. The minister has political

17 responsibility for the situation for the area he is responsible for,

18 including crime.

19 Q. Tell me, please, if the minister were to form some commissions,

20 for example, for them to look into a given situation linked to crimes

21 committed, based on your experience, would those commissions replace or

22 could they replace the legal obligations of -- that the organs have to

23 uncover crimes?

24 A. When we are talking about crime, for example, if the minister

25 shows a certain interest about a specific event, then he has the right to

1 establish commissions and working groups that will, in a way, work and

2 elaborate on the case and inform him of it. In my experience, such

3 commissions and working groups have been established on numerous

4 occasions, and in view of my position at that time, they came to ask about

5 certain events. They asked that interviews be conducted or materials be

6 sent to them. This is a customary practice.

7 Q. And since you were the head of the crime police for the city of

8 Skopje, if I understood you well, then such group or a committee did not

9 relieve you of the responsibility to perform your duties as stipulated in

10 the law?

11 A. No, not at all. These are completely different matters.

12 Q. And if, for instance, someone from the OVR failed to perform their

13 duties properly, in what way would you, from the SVR or from the MOI, need

14 to react?

15 A. If the direct superior does not carry out his tasks, or does not

16 act according to his competencies, he is subject to disciplinary measures.

17 Depending on the case, he may be even liable for criminal prosecution.

18 Q. And since, for instance -- if, for instance, the direct superiors

19 from the OVR or the head of SVR failed to do that, within which body organ

20 of the internal affairs would the question of enforcement of the law be

21 raised? For instance, with regards to the situation within the SVR

22 Skopje.

23 A. If you mean about the quality of work, then this should be

24 primarily evaluated by the bureau for public security. If we're talking

25 about a sector for internal affairs, then the bureau for public security

1 is the body that evaluates the work of the sector and assesses the quality

2 of work.

3 Q. Tell me, since you mentioned the director of the public security

4 bureau, do you know who appoints the director of the bureau for public

5 security?

6 A. The director is an appointed official. This means the government

7 of the Republic of Macedonia.

8 Q. And do you know, whom is he accountable to?

9 A. Usually he is accountable towards the ones who has appointed them.

10 This means the government and the minister.

11 Q. And while we're speaking about the director as an official, tell

12 me, we followed the line, so if the director fails to react about the

13 situation of the enforcement of the law performance in a sector or

14 somewhere, who was then the only one who could dismiss the director of the

15 bureau for public security?

16 A. The procedure says that the minister is the one who should submit

17 a proposal to the government about the dismissal of the director.

18 Q. So, if I understood this answer properly, the minister does not

19 have competences to sanction the director. The minister can only propose

20 the government to take certain measures. Is that what you were trying to

21 say?

22 A. Yes, this is so.

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

25 MR. SAXON: It's a bit late for me now, but that seemed to be a

1 leading question.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It is true, Mr. Saxon, and it is true it is a bit

3 late.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe if you look at

5 this question alone, it is absolutely a leading question as you say. But

6 before that, the witness said the same thing. I just repeated it through

7 a leading question, and I apologise for that, but it was not unfounded, in

8 my opinion.

9 JUDGE PARKER: You have been cautioned that Mr. Saxon is anxious.

10 Thank you.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Stojanovski, in addition to what you said

13 about your understanding of the duties and responsibilities of the

14 minister, tell me, have you ever been close to the minister in your

15 practice, or have you ever received any orders from a minister, any

16 minister, because probably there were several ministers throughout your

17 career?

18 A. For my 25/6 years of professional experience, many ministers have

19 passed through the ministry, and I have not encountered a situation like

20 this.

21 Q. If someone would assert before this Court that the minister

22 directly called a person from the OVR and ordered them to take certain

23 actions, what would be your comment to such assertion?

24 A. If I can express myself freely -- may I express myself freely?

25 This would be boasting. Only a person who would like to present himself

1 in a loftier position than he is would say this. I'm not saying that it's

2 not possible, but this does not happen in practice. Especially I can

3 speak of myself, this has never happened to me, although I have been on

4 senior position.

5 Q. If a minister had called a certain person, you said everything is

6 possible, so the minister could, for instance, call the phone number of a

7 policeman, of a patrol police officer. Tell me, so if something like that

8 happened, actually, that some minister calls the head of the OVR, does

9 this relieve that person from the responsibilities that are vested to that

10 person under the law?

11 A. There is no such law. There is no such Book of Rules.

12 Q. And now I would like to ask you to look at the document after tab

13 5. That is Exhibit 1D106, and it provides a brief definition of the

14 bureau for public security. So I will read it. It says: "The

15 administration is led by a director/head, who, pursuant to a proposal by

16 the minister is appointed and removed by the government of the Republic of

17 Macedonia, for a term of office of four years.

18 "The director is independent in the performance of the works of

19 the administration, and is accountable for his work to the minister and

20 the government of the Republic of Macedonia.

21 "Upon a proposal of the director of the administration, the

22 minister adopts -- passes acts for the organisation and work, enforces

23 systemization of the jobs within the administration to which the

24 government of the Republic of Macedonia provides consent."

25 My question is, Mr. Stojanovski, whether this brief description of

1 the position and of the duties of the public security bureau correspond to

2 your personal knowledge as of 2001, with regards to the position of the

3 public security bureau?

4 A. Of course. I think even in my previous statements I made comments

5 to that extent.

6 Q. I will kindly ask you now to look again after tab 4. That is

7 Exhibit 1D107. And let's turn to page 1D4390; and the English page is

8 1D4414.

9 Before that, I kindly ask to you look at the page before that

10 one. And in the lower right corner you will see that this rule back was

11 passed on the 26th of January, 2001, by the then minister of interior,

12 Dosta Dimovska. And in Article 28 of this rule book, it is indicated that

13 the diagram of the internal organisation of the ministry with its

14 headquarters and the territorial organisational forms are the integral

15 parts of this rule book.

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I would like to ask you now to look together at this diagram.

19 That is 1D4390, or 1D4414.

20 Towards the middle of this diagram, we see the public security

21 bureau. Tell me, please, whether this diagram reflects your evidence

22 before this Court, that parts of the public security bureau exist and that

23 they perform -- that they enforce the law independently?

24 A. I believe this is so.

25 Q. And here we see also the crime police department, where you worked

1 also in 2001. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes. On these matters, yes.

3 Q. However, in addition to this central diagram of the public

4 security bureau, you see also some bodies that are linked to the minister,

5 but -- but they are related to the public security bureau also with broken

6 lines. Considering that they are linked to the minister, I would like to

7 ask you now the following. On the top of this table you see the special

8 tasks unit Tiger. Do you know -- or, rather, did you know in 2001 about

9 the existence of the special units task force Tiger?

10 A. Yes, they existed in the course of 2001.

11 Q. Having this diagram in mind, was the minister able to issue orders

12 to this special tasks unit, Tiger?

13 A. My personal opinion, the scheme is not really adequate. The

14 minister could only approve the use of this special unit. No more than

15 that.

16 Q. But, according to this diagram, he was able to order the use of

17 that unit. Is that so?

18 A. This -- this is what I said, to approve the use of that special

19 unit.

20 Q. Would such order mean that the minister assumes the command of

21 this unit?

22 A. No. This is altogether something different. The Minister has the

23 right to approve at someone's request the use of this special unit.

24 However, the command is something entirely different. This is not

25 something which falls as a right of the minister.

1 I was not a member of the special unit, but from my own

2 experience, I know how this was done.

3 Q. Very well. Then who is the commander, when the use, the

4 deployment of this unit is ordered? Who is then the commander of this

5 unit?

6 A. The commander commands this unit.

7 Q. Are there situations when this commander has the duty to execute

8 other orders?

9 A. As I said, the scheme may not be most adequate. The special task

10 units, in their structure, are within the framework of the bureau for

11 public security. In the police unit, there is a sector for special

12 purposes, special unit -- special task unit, and this is the link with the

13 unit for special tasks.

14 The special tasks unit carries out its regular work duties and

15 organisational duties through the sector for special task units. The

16 minister can approve the deployment of this unit. However, the unit

17 itself is, if I can say, within the hierarchy of the special unit sector.

18 Q. I did not understand this really, so I might reframe the question.

19 In this diagram, bearing the date January 2001, we see that the

20 special unit Tiger is linked to the minister. Was that the situation that

21 existed permanently or do you have any knowledge about some changes with

22 regards to the position of the special unit Tiger or --

23 A. An unnatural position. The way it is depicted on this scheme,

24 this is unnatural. It's inadequate for the special units Tiger. If

25 memory serves me right, at one period of time, possibly this was the

1 period, the special tasks unit was subordinate to the minister. But

2 immediately it was noted that this was a mistake, so it was returned

3 within the sector for special units.

4 Q. Thank you -- very well. Thank you. I believe that we elaborated

5 on this sufficiently and I still appreciate the fact that I will ask you

6 more about the crime police, but thank you very much for this

7 clarification that you gave us just now.

8 I will ask you now to move to a different topic. You were the

9 assistant to the head of the SVR Skopje, so maybe I should better ask you

10 more specific questions about the events in Skopje.

11 In 2001, could you briefly tell us what were the circumstances in

12 which the police acted within the city of Skopje?

13 A. I don't know whether this is possible to explain in brief.

14 In this period, the security situation was extremely complex, and

15 if I were to look at the situation more broadly, two aspects have to be

16 taken into account: The resources which we had available; and the

17 situation which we were facing. In that period of time, I think it's well

18 known that the Republic of Macedonia was - how to say? - in an armed

19 conflict. It was attacked by the terrorists, and, under such

20 circumstances, it was extremely difficult to work.

21 As of March 2001 till the end of the year, we were extremely

22 pressed with work, if I may say so, and not only with our regular

23 activities. There were additional obligations for the Ministry of

24 Interior, for the sector of internal affairs as part of it.

25 Q. With regards to what you said, that you had insufficient material

1 and human resources, tell me whether, in 2001, besides the regular police

2 officers who were employed by the ministry in Skopje, were there any other

3 persons called in?

4 A. In view of the situation and in view of the human resources we had

5 available, we could not respond to the tasks we were facing. Due to these

6 reasons, the reserve forces of the Ministry of Interior was activated.

7 Q. Before we go on, because you mentioned the reservists now, those

8 reservists that you called in pursuant, probably, to the law on the rule

9 book - let's not go into that now - tell me whether the reserve forces

10 were employed by the Ministry of Interior after they were called in? Did

11 they become employed?

12 A. No. They were not employed at the Ministry of Interior. If they

13 were employed in other bodies or in other companies was stagnant and they

14 received compensation on the part of the Ministry of Interior, that is to

15 say, the budget of the Republic. I'm not expert on this topic, but I

16 think this is it.

17 Q. Just one question. Appreciating the fact that you are not expert

18 in this area and that I probably need to ask these questions of someone

19 else, but if you have experience from that time, could you tell me for

20 someone to become a member of the reserve forces of the police, was it

21 sufficient for a person to be issued with weapons and uniform, or were

22 there any other requirements for this? If you know it, of course, answer

23 it.

24 A. As part of the sector for internal affairs, there is -- there was

25 and there is a unit for defence preparations charged with topics such as

1 these. According to my modest understanding - I will say again - weapons

2 and uniform does not make a person a reserve police officer.

3 Q. Thank you. I will kindly ask you now to look at the document

4 after tab 25. And before that, since you spoke about the situation in

5 Skopje that lasted throughout 2001, tell me, what was the impact of the

6 events in other parts of the Republic on to the situation in Skopje?

7 A. Information about the rest of the Republic, the situation in the rest

8 of the country, were received through the headquarters of the operative

9 action Ramno. In regards to what I called as conflict, an operative

10 action was formed named Ramno, the aim of which was to undertake measures

11 and activities to follow movements and activities of terrorist groups in

12 Macedonia. Within the framework of this operative action, operative

13 headquarters was established at the ministry as well as in all SVRs - at

14 that time there were 11 of them - and in the OVRs. Information was

15 exchanged through headquarters which I mentioned, and according to the

16 information I had available at the time, the northern part of the Republic

17 towards Kosovo was under particular threat than Tetovo and Kumanovo.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. And tell me now, in addition to those

19 measures, such as establishment of the operative action Ramno, what was

20 the reaction of the people to those various events, and did it make the

21 situation in Skopje more complex?

22 A. This is a very complex question. At the beginning of the crisis,

23 we faced with a -- a very weak response of reservists. On the other hand,

24 we faced a revolt among the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia who

25 could not accept the fact that someone is setting their houses on fire, is

1 expelling them from their homes, and they could not accept the fact that

2 law enforcement forces of the Republic of Macedonia are undertaking

3 measures which they deemed as insufficient.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Would you look now at the document that I

5 asked you to see in tab 25. That is Exhibit 1D114.

6 And you can see here that this is a decision to form a commission

7 for determining the causes, number of participants, the aim, and the way

8 of expression of the public protest of the citizens in front of the

9 parliament of the Republic of Macedonia, held in the night between the

10 25th and the 26th of June, 2001.

11 Tell me, do you have, Mr. Stojanovski, any knowledge about this

12 event?

13 A. Yes. This is one of the problems that we had faced, I feel free

14 to say, almost every day, although this was a bit more prominent or

15 striking than the others.

16 Q. Were you present there when those events took place?

17 A. Yes, I was present. And I was in front of the parliament of the

18 Republic of Macedonia together with my co-workers.

19 Q. As we've already heard testimony about this event, tell me,

20 please, what efforts and why were steps taken, if they were, by the police

21 of the city of Skopje that evening?

22 A. The situation was very complex, since the protesters were

23 actually citizens and were accompanied, if I can say so, by police

24 reservists, police officers, members of the army, who wanted to express

25 their protest because of the events related to the village of Aracinovo.

1 For clarification, immediately in the days before, actually, the

2 Ministry of Interior took action to seize control over the village of

3 Aracinovo and had clashes with the terrorists who were located there at

4 that time. When the clashes started, an order was issued. I believe that

5 it was an order issued by the president, the late president of the state,

6 and probably pressured by the international public. The action was

7 stopped, and we were forced to provide a corridor for -- to allow the

8 terrorists to be taken out of the village, having their complete armament

9 with them. Most of the citizens could not accept this, found this

10 unacceptable so went out to protest, and they were joined by many of the

11 police reservists.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stojanovski. As I have already said, some

13 witnesses have already testified about that. But what I'm interested in

14 now is this: In view of the situation as it was, people with arms,

15 protesting, the possibility of attacking the sobranje, parliament, what

16 was the priority as far as the police were concerned? Did you have

17 priority with respect to those events, that is to say, to disband the

18 masses, to defend the sobranje, the assembly, or was something else a

19 priority and -- that you acted upon that night?

20 A. So the SVR Skopje had a certain capacity at the moment.

21 Unfortunately, we were not able to perform our task fully with regards to

22 the security for the parliament building, since, after the information on

23 the protests before -- in front of the parliament building were spread, we

24 simultaneously received information that part of the Albanian population

25 in the settlement of Bit Pazar in Skopje, started to gather, and such

1 information were going back and forth uncontrollably between the two

2 sides. And at a given moment, it became somewhat expected that there

3 would be a clash between the citizens who protested in front of the

4 parliament building and the citizens who had already started gathering in

5 the Bit Pazar settlement and the -- who were of Albanian ethnicity.

6 At that moment, we needed to establish a priority, you understand,

7 considering the limited resources, and we decided to attach primary

8 importance to what was taking place in the Bit Pazar settlement or,

9 actually, we decided that we must not allow an ethnic-based clash to take

10 place. So part of the available resources were directed towards the stone

11 bridge in Skopje and we tried to secure the both sides, groups of citizens

12 to prevent a direct clash between them.

13 I believe that, unless we did that, there would have been much

14 graver consequences in the Republic of Macedonia. So this is why we

15 failed to complete our task before the parliament building.

16 Q. Very well. So if I have understood you correctly, and to avoid

17 asking a leading question and upsetting my learned friend, your decision

18 that night was to protect the parts of town inhabited by the Albanian

19 population, to prevent an ethnic conflict from breaking out. Is that it?

20 A. You can realistically say that the number of Macedonian citizens

21 was far greater than the number of citizens of Albanian ethnicity, and I

22 think that if we had allowed that group of people to go to the other side

23 of the settlement, that there would have been many, many people injured.

24 We simply could not allow this to happen, so we needed to protect that

25 population.

1 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned that there were -- was the reserve

2 police force there and the army and that the citizens joined in later on.

3 Tell me now, please, do you know of a measure that was taken by the

4 minister of the interior after that?

5 A. There was a measure taken, but to be honest, the result was not

6 something really. Namely, the minister issued a decision to disband the

7 reserve force. However, that decision was later suspended by the

8 president.

9 Q. Would you look at the document that comes after tab 18. It is

10 1D90, Exhibit 1D90. And that is page 1D4036 in Macedonian; and in English

11 it is 1D4038.

12 A. I apologise, 4036?

13 Q. Yes, that's right. And -- part of that document, that is to say,

14 underneath the three stars, the heading there is demobilisation of the

15 reserve force, reserve composition. It says: "The minister of internal

16 affairs Ljube Boskoski, at a press conference stated that members of the

17 reserve force of the Republic of Macedonia will be demobilised and

18 withdrawn from the check-points around Skopje."

19 Now is that the decision that you have just told us about?

20 A. I believe that's the one.

21 Q. Let's now look at the next document after tab 19. And it is

22 Exhibit 1D91; page 1D4041 in Macedonian, and 1D4042 in the English.

23 On that page, we have a text that says the following: "The police

24 reservists are returning to the check-points." And it says that: "The

25 Ministry of Interior withdrew the decision for demobilisation of the

1 reserve police force and ordered a remobilisation which will be put into

2 effect selectively. The remobilisation of the reserve police force shall

3 be conducted upon the request of the commander of the chief of the

4 Macedonian Armed Forces Boris Trajkovski, due to the security situation in

5 the country."

6 Now, is that the decision which you mentioned a moment ago?

7 A. Yes, that is the one.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see the clock, and

10 I don't know how you intend to work today. I understood it that we would

11 be working for two sessions.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And there's another quarter of an hour to go

13 in the second session.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I was thinking of the morning

15 sittings, so that was my mistake. Thank you.

16 Q. A moment ago, Mr. Stojanovski, you were speaking about the

17 formation of the Ramno staff which had the task of collecting information

18 and data on the situation in the territory, and I'd like to ask you now to

19 take a look at the following document. It comes after tab 22. It is

20 Exhibit P387 -- I'm sorry, 381. It's Exhibit P381.

21 It's a decision on the formation of the Ramno Operative Action

22 Headquarters. The date is 2001, the 20th of May.

23 Are you familiar with this document, or let me put it this way, do

24 you know that the headquarters was formed?

25 A. I am familiar with the document, but I know --

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

2 A. -- I am not familiar with the document, but I know the names

3 because I was in the headquarter of the SVR Skopje.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Would you look at another document now it is 1D112, after tab 21.

6 1D4304 in Macedonian, the page number; and in English it is 1D4306, in

7 English.

8 This is, once again, a document on the formation of the Ramno

9 Operative Action Headquarters, and the date is the 7th of March, 2001.

10 Tell me, please, do you know when this Ramno Operative Action

11 was recorded and registered and who the minister was?

12 A. I believe that the action was registered in the month of March,

13 and the -- Mrs. Dosta Dimovska was the minister.

14 Q. Now, in view of the gathering of information about this, tell me,

15 who assessed the security situation in a given area?

16 A. Well, the entire situation caused the need to have constant and

17 continuing assessment of the securing situation, and that was a duty that

18 belonged to the OVRs, considering the fact that, of course, since they

19 were working, covering a given territory, they were the best placed to

20 know the situation there.

21 Q. Now, when we're talking about assessment and evaluation in the

22 internal affairs department, was it their duty to send their assessment to

23 the internal affairs sector of Skopje, and did the sector itself evaluate

24 the situation, as far as the city of Skopje was concerned?

25 A. Yes. The sector for internal affairs collected the security

1 assessments, so to say, and the entirety of them formed the security

2 assessment for the city. So --

3 Q. As you just said, in view of the fact that there was a crisis on

4 and there was the need to assess the security situation, in that regard

5 were any other measures taken in order to be able to control the area, in

6 operative terms?

7 A. After the security assessment of the situation was made, and

8 aiming towards performing the tasks indicated, enumerated in the operative

9 action Ramno, the OVRs started operating in a check-point-based manner.

10 Q. Who was responsible for establishing the number of -- or, rather,

11 who decided where the check-points were going to be and how many of them

12 there were to be erected in the territory of the city of Skopje?

13 A. As I previously stated, they were the ones who knew the situation

14 on the ground best. Upon a proposal coming from the commanders of police

15 stations, the head of the OVR approved -- or actually passed the plan for

16 the erecting and the dimensions of the check-points.

17 Q. Let us now look at the next document, which comes after tab 10.

18 It is 65 ter 1D1238.

19 Here we have an order for performing service. This should -- this

20 is a draft translation, in fact. If we have it on e-court I can proceed;

21 if not, then I would like to deal with it later. Or perhaps I can go on

22 with another question. We'll come back to this later on.

23 I see it's come up on e-court. I didn't know if the translation

24 was ready yet.

25 Anyway, Mr. Stojanovski, we have here an order, an order that must

1 be acted upon. Now in addition to the check-points that you spoke about

2 earlier on, were other measures resorted to on the part of the police in

3 order to be able to deal with the crisis that you were faced with?

4 A. Yes, of course. This is proof that, in addition to

5 check-point-based work there were also motor patrols and of course

6 infantry patrols or our so-called local patrol police officers.

7 Q. When you spoke about check-points a moment ago you said that

8 the -- it was up to the police station to propose this measure and the

9 chief to allow it to go ahead. You told us how many check-points there

10 were and so on. But was it possible at all to change the number of

11 check-points and their locations in a given area, for example?

12 A. Depending on the current security situation in that area, the head

13 of the OVR and upon a proposal of the police station commander was able to

14 change the location of the check-point or the composition and the number

15 of the officers serving the check-point.

16 Now, regarding this, I had nothing to do -- I had no influence.

17 Q. I apologise --

18 A. I received the information from the operative

19 headquarters.

20 Q. Thank you. Tell me whether the SVR of Skopje had certain duties

21 in determining the number of check-points, who manned the check-points,

22 how many there were and so on?

23 A. No, the SVR Skopje had no competence there. Still, however, the

24 OVR had the duty to inform the headquarters of the SVR Skopje. This was

25 due to organisational reasons only, so that we know how many people are

1 deployed there and where are they deployed and of course to provide some

2 logistics, if needed, or rendering assistance to a certain check-point if

3 such need would arise.

4 Q. What about the MVR, the Ministry of the Interior, at the level of

5 the Republic of Macedonia? Did it have any duties and responsibilities

6 linked to those check-points, where their location was, how many of them

7 there were, and their establishment in the first place?

8 A. No. I think that through the headquarters of the SVR Skopje the

9 MOI was informed through so-called summary information only about the

10 number of check-points and the number of persons deployed there, without

11 details.

12 Q. Now let's take a look at the order itself. The number is 2456.

13 And I'd like to ask you, since you mentioned a moment ago when you spoke

14 about certain activities and operative control, can you tell me what this

15 means: Operative control, in the police sense? What does it actually

16 mean and imply?

17 A. The operative control is explained and applied pursuant to an

18 instructive act of the Ministry of Interior. Those are measures and

19 activities undertaken by the authorised officers in cases when there

20 are -- there is general knowledge that crimes are perpetrated somewhere,

21 or that perpetrators of crimes are gathering. This operative control

22 could be aiming at persons, at locations or facilities, buildings. This

23 presupposes following -- direct following of the events, monitoring the

24 events in the vicinity of those facilities or locations, or check-points.

25 It also presupposes provisional controls, occasional controls of persons

1 and asking them for their ID. And the operative control could end in

2 cases when, once it is established that the reasons for its establishment

3 had terminated, it could be terminated by being converted into operative

4 processing or by filing a criminal report.

5 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, if you look at this order and the description of

6 the action to be undertaken as stipulated in this order, control of

7 catering establishments, to tour the various premises where criminals acts

8 had been committed and so on and so forth, to also apprehend the persons

9 wanted by court warrant, et cetera, tell me, do these actions actually

10 mean practical implementation of what you were speaking about and which is

11 called operative control in the police vocabulary?

12 A. Yes. The items 1 and 3 could be considered as such, this means

13 that the police officers were given tasks within a registered operative

14 control or an established operative control. These are some of the

15 measures.

16 Q. Thank you. And perhaps just one more question before we break.

17 You have explained to us what operative or operational control

18 means in the police sense and how it was put into practice. This concept

19 of operative control in the police sense, does it have anything at all to

20 do with operative control as used in the army?

21 A. There is no basis for the comparison. They are completely

22 different notions.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.

25 The reasons have been discussed. We will limit ourselves to two

1 sessions, each of a full one-and-a-half hours, so ending now today and

2 tomorrow. We will continue the hearing tomorrow morning at 9.00, and

3 attempt to sit for two full one-and-a-half hour sessions, subject to the

4 continuing comfort of the witness.

5 So we adjourn now and resume at 9.00 in the morning.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.46 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Friday, the 8th day of

8 February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25