1 Friday, 8 February 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 The affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still
8 applies, sir.
9 Ms. Residovic.
10 WITNESS: PETRE STOJANOVSKI [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Stojanovski.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would need the
16 assistance of the usher to show the Court and my colleagues from the
17 Prosecution and the witness the rest of the documents that I intend to use
18 in my examination.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I take it, Ms. Residovic, you may not finish by
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honour, your
22 estimate is quite correct. However, as you see, certain things happen in
23 an unforeseeable way and we cannot entirely follow the schedule, and I
24 hope you will be accommodating, Your Honours.
25 Thank you very much.
1 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, you remember that we left off yesterday on the
2 events before the assembly of Macedonia on the 25th and 26th of June and
3 the measures that the police force of Skopje in the Republic of Macedonia
4 took to protect the Albanian population in one part of the town. Correct?
5 A. Yes, I remember.
6 Q. Now, would you kindly look at this second set of documents, behind
7 tab 34.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D131. We need page
9 N005-1053. In English it is N005-1053-ET.
10 Q. Do you have this document before you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. At the top, it says that it's a document of the MVR of the
13 Republic of Macedonia, Skopje city, internal affairs sector.
14 Look at the document. Tell me, who drafted this information?
15 A. This information was prepared by the department for analysis at
16 the SVR Skopje.
17 Q. And what is this report about?
18 A. I believe that I already mentioned, in the previous session, that
19 on that particular date, there were major demonstrations in front of the
20 assembly of the Republic of Macedonia caused by our obligation to
21 facilitate a corridor; that is to say, to end the armed clashes in
22 Aracinovo and to allow the terrorists to leave the village.
23 This decision --
24 Q. Thank you. We heard that yesterday. Just tell me, does this
25 report deal with the events of that day, as you testified yesterday?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, would you kindly look behind tab 35.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D130, page 1D4320, and
4 1D4322 in English.
5 Q. Do you have that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell me, who drafted it?
8 A. This information was drafted by the analytical services at the
9 Ministry of Interior.
10 Q. Tell me, does this report also describe the events you testified
11 about yesterday?
12 A. According to what I'm able to see, yes.
13 Q. You have explained the reasons for that clash yesterday, but you
14 also said that the police of Skopje, in 2001, faced other protests by
15 citizens. Do you remember saying that yesterday?
16 A. Yes. Throughout the whole period of the crisis, there were
17 constant protests by dissatisfied citizens.
18 Q. You also mentioned yesterday the events around Tetovo. What about
19 them? Did they also reflect on the security situation in Skopje?
20 A. Very often, not even on a daily basis, the population from Tetovo
21 protested also in front of the assembly of the Republic of Macedonia. One
22 cannot say that this was just people from Skopje therefore. They came
23 from all areas under threat. There was constant presence of population
24 dissatisfied by the measures that the MOI was undertaking to suppress
1 Q. Could you please look behind 36.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D128. Macedonian is 1D4 --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch all the numbers.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D4295 is Macedonian, and 1D4298
5 is English.
6 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, we have another report here. Do you know who
7 drafted this one?
8 A. Yes. This information was drafted by the analytics section at the
9 SVR Skopje.
10 Q. So it's the sector of internal affairs where you discharged the
11 functions of the assistant chief for crime police?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. In view of the subject of this report, it says: "The protest of
14 the residents of villages of Tetovo; many facilities and OSCE vehicles
15 were damaged."
16 Does this report indicate what you just said, that people,
17 residents of other places also came to Skopje to demonstrate?
18 A. Yes. I think this information reflects this. These were very
19 tense situations, whereby part of the citizens expressed a revolt also
20 through attacks or damaging facilities in ownership of Albanians.
21 Q. I would now like to ask you to look behind 37.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D126. Page 1D4043 in
23 Macedonian, and 1D4046 ...
24 Q. Do you have that?
25 A. Yes, I see it.
1 Q. Before I ask any further questions, could you tell me, since you
2 were the chief of crime police for Skopje, did competent authorities of
3 the SVR and MVR, that is OVR, try to enforce the law; that is, to detect
4 perpetrators of crimes that were committed during such demonstrations in
6 A. In principle, the obligation, in circumstances such as these, was
7 related to public peace and order. However, when we have also criminal
8 offences being committed, the obligation of the crime police is to become
9 involved and to try to clear up these cases.
10 Q. Now, tell me, since the subject of this report is that persons
11 guilty of disturbing public law and order and theft on the given date were
12 detected, what does it show?
13 A. It provides an overview of the activities undertaken for
14 uncovering the perpetrators of criminal offences; that is to say, as far
15 as I can remember, we had brought in over 50 people. For at least 30, we
16 were able to prove that they had committed criminal offences, and they
17 were, of course, processed before the competent authorities.
18 Q. You said, a moment ago, that property was frequently threatened.
19 As far as you know, the perpetrators in these demonstrations were
20 endangering whose property?
21 A. They threatened property which they believed was owned by
22 Albanians, which, in most cases, was so. However, as police, we cannot
23 separate citizens. They all have the right to the same kind of
25 Q. As you said, in view of this report and the occasion of one such
1 demonstration, you had identified over 50 persons and took them into
2 custody. Who were they by ethnicity, overwhelmingly? Who were the
3 persons you brought in and possibly took other measures?
4 A. Mostly, they were young people of Macedonian ethnicity.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly ask for pause between
6 questions and answers.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now, would you kindly look at tab 39.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D129.
10 Q. Again, who wrote this report, Mr. Stojanovski?
11 A. This information again originates from, or rather, is prepared by
12 the department for analysis at the SVR Skopje.
13 Q. Does this report, too, confirm, as you testified, that
14 demonstrations happened almost daily with security repercussions in the
16 A. Yes. I believe not a single day went by without protests, during
17 which the citizens expressed their dissatisfaction by attacks of
18 facilities owned by Albanians but also by attacks and damage of property
19 belonging to international organisations. They felt that they were
20 responsible for part of the events in Macedonia.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, please look at tab 41.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D127. The number is
23 N004-9837, and the English version is 9837 to 9840-ET.
24 Q. Do you have the document?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who wrote this report?
2 A. The department for analysis at the SVR Skopje.
3 Q. Does this report, too, dealing with the protest of citizens of
4 Skopje, damaging -- causing great damage to various buildings confirm your
5 prior testimony?
6 A. Yes. Perhaps the cause of the protest was somewhat different.
7 Here we had a case of revolt of citizens provoked by the incident in the
8 village of Ljuboten; that is to say, the terrorist attack that cost the
9 lives of eight members of the Macedonian army. This was an extremely
10 large protest. The masses did not stay just in front of the assembly but
11 also moved through the city streets, and many -- and many criminal
12 offences were noted then.
13 Q. Could you now turn to page 2.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] N004-9838 in Macedonian. In
15 English, I believe it's ...
16 Q. It begins with: "Otherwise due to disrupting of public law and
17 order damage of stores ..."
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we find that part in the
19 English version also?
20 This could be the same page, a few paragraphs above. That means
21 the previous page in English.
22 Q. At any rate, I'll read because it's the page before in
23 Macedonian: "Otherwise due to participation in public law and order or
24 damage of stores and other business facilities as well as theft, about a
25 total of 46 people were brought in, in police stations Centar, Bit Pazar,
1 and Kisela Voda, out of which 23 were minors. Interviews were conducted
2 with them, whereby it was established that 32 of them committed theft and
3 damaged facilities."
4 Does this part of the report confirm what you just said; namely,
5 that around 50 persons were brought in that day?
6 A. Yes. We undertook measures to that end; although, I must say that
7 the number of criminal offences committed was high and we could not
8 prevent it, because we were also engaged in preventing an interethnic
9 clash between the Macedonians and Albanians. Again, we had to establish
10 our priorities in this regard; but after the tensions were calmed, we
11 immediately undertook actions to find the perpetrators and to bring them
13 Q. Thank you. In the passage I just read, it says that steps were
14 taken, they were brought to the police stations of Centar, Bit Pazar, and
15 Kisela Voda.
16 Does this sentence corroborate your testimony yesterday as to who
17 was in charge of taking steps when there are suspicions that a crime was
18 committed and some people are suspected of committing them?
19 A. The Department of the Interior in the area of which the crimes
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we turn to the next page of
22 this document.
23 Q. As we see on this page, we have a large number of businesses
24 listed, those that were damaged or looted during the protests.
25 If you look at the list of businesses, do we see that most of them
1 belonged to Albanians?
2 A. Yes. Most of these businesses do belong to owners of Albanian
4 Q. Let us go back to the document we looked at a moment ago.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D126. It is at tab 42.
6 Q. And here, too, we have a long list of names, if you look from page
7 1043 in Macedonian and 1046 [as interpreted] in English, up to 1045 in
8 Macedonian and 1D4047 in English.
9 A large number of persons are listed here, the last number being
10 30. Tell me, did these police stations, in fact, succeed in identifying
11 some of the perpetrators of crimes, and is this the list of persons
12 identified as such?
13 A. Yes. This information lists the persons who were uncovered as
14 perpetrators of criminal offences. The police stations acted within their
15 competencies; and in view of the fact that these offences happened on the
16 territory of OVR Centar, as part of their activities, they submitted or
17 filed the relevant criminal report.
18 Q. Could we now look together at the document at tab 43.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's 65 ter 406, N004-9844; and
20 in English, it's 9844 to 45-ET.
21 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, who drafted this report?
22 A. This one, too, was prepared by the department for analysis at the
23 SVR Skopje.
24 Q. We read here about a vigorous action by the MVR to prevent things
25 from escalating into vandalism.
1 Does this also deal with one of the protests by citizens and the
2 efforts of the police of SVR Skopje to prevent these people from
3 committing crimes?
4 A. Yes. These were continuing, ongoing activities, by which we tried
5 to protect the property of persons and the perpetration of criminal
7 Q. I would like you to take now the third set of documents, which is
8 not large. We could look at a couple of documents only, and then we'll
9 return to the documents we discussed now.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Show first, please, the document
11 at tab 173. That's 65 ter 1D1219.
12 Q. What is this document, Mr. Stojanovski?
13 A. Please give me a moment.
14 Q. Behind tab 173.
15 Did you manage to find this document? You see it on the screen
17 A. Yes, I see the document. This is a criminal report filed against
18 four persons for theft during the protests. This criminal report was
19 filed by the relevant department of the interior, because these crimes
20 were committed on the territory of OVR Centar. It was they who undertook
21 measures and activities for uncovering these persons and filing the
22 criminal report as part of their regular activities.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness to pause
24 before answering his question.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, we were cautioned by the interpreters to make
2 pauses between question and answer?
3 A. I apologise if I was speaking too quickly.
4 Q. You stated that it was filed by a competent body organ of internal
5 affairs. Where do you see in this report the note on which is the
6 competent organ of internal affairs that filed this report?
7 A. According to this criminal report --
8 Q. I apologise. Who is the title of this criminal report, if you are
9 able to say that?
10 A. From this criminal report, we can see that it was prepared by the
11 department for internal affairs, Skopje, OVR Skopje [as interpreted], who
12 are responsible for this case, having in mind that these offences happened
13 on their territory.
14 Q. I apologise, I heard the translation "OVR Skopje," while I think
15 you said OVR something else, because OVR Skopje I never heard you mention
16 that before. So I kindly ask you to repeat which was the OVR that filed
17 this criminal report?
18 A. I believe I said that it was the OVR Centar. My apologies if I
19 made a mistake.
20 Q. Very well. The translation of this document is in the e-court; it
21 is not in the binder.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We omitted this translation by
23 mistake so I apologise to Their Honours and to my colleagues. They can
24 see it on the screen only.
25 Q. Would you please look at the final page of this document?
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 1D1793.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Who has signed this document?
5 A. There report is signed by the manager, the head of OVR Centar at
6 the time, Mr. Trajkovski, as part of -- as part of his competencies.
7 Q. So the signatory to this report corroborates your notion on who is
8 in charge of filing a criminal report. Have I understood you well?
9 A. Of course.
10 Q. You stated that this was a criminal report filed against four
11 persons because of the protests in Skopje. Tell me, who were those
12 persons: Aleksovski, Saso; Tripunovski, Goce; Metodijas, Miluv; and
13 Tripunovski, Nikola? What is their ethnicity?
14 A. According to the criminal report, these are citizens of Macedonian
16 Q. Thank you. Would you please now look at the document after tab
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 65 ter 1D1220. The
19 Macedonian page is 1D9794. This document also has a partial translation
20 included in this binder. This is draft translation, and it was not
21 uploaded to the e-court because we just secured the draft translation
23 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, if you look now at this criminal report, could
24 you tell us whether it was produced by the competent bodies and which are
25 those competent bodies, and who were the perpetrators this criminal
1 offence that was reported?
2 A. This criminal report is filed by OVR Centar. It is drafted by the
3 department for operative measures, activities. That's the department
4 which carried out the criminalistic activities within the OVR. And, once
5 again, these are perpetrators of Macedonian ethnicity.
6 And in accordance with the rules, it is signed by the head of the
7 OVR Centar; that is to say, the responsible OVR.
8 Q. Could you tell us who are the injured parties, as reading from
9 this criminal report?
10 A. I don't understand your question. I don't know the persons.
11 However, from this report, we can see that these are people of Macedonian
12 ethnicity, if this is what you had in mind.
13 Q. Persons who are suspects in this report?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In the second page, you say: "Namely, on the 8th of August, 2001,
16 at the critical time between 2000 and 2200 hours, they went to the centre
17 of the city, more precisely the parliament building, in order to express
18 their protests for the deteriorated security situation in the Republic of
20 So I'm interested to learn whether this criminal report was filed
21 on the occasion of all these events that were -- that took place when the
22 protests were taking place, those that we were looking at before?
23 A. Yes. This criminal report is also a part of these activities or
24 related to these activities.
25 Q. Let's look now at the document in tab 175.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 65 ter 1D1221. Macedonian
2 page is 1D9797.
3 And this is, again, a translation, Your Honours, that we did not
4 manage to upload in the e-court, but you have it in your binders.
5 Q. Tell us, whether we have, again, a criminal report submitted by
6 the competent body on the occasion of those same events?
7 A. Yes. From the title, I can see that this is the Centar Department of the
8 Interior, or rather the section for operative affairs, a criminal report for
9 criminal offences of theft on the territory of OVR Centar perpetrated by
10 three persons of Macedonian ethnicity, and also related and of the time when
11 a large group of people were expressing their revolt due to the security
12 situation in the Republic of Macedonia.
13 And, lastly, we can see that it is signed by the head of the OVR
14 Skopje, which I said was responsible -- Centar, OVR Centar, which, as I
15 said, was the responsible OVR.
16 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, answering one of my questions just previously,
17 you stated that you paid no attention to the identity of the injured
18 parties because, for you, all citizens were equal.
19 Tell me, please, during your career and during your work in 2001,
20 what was, as far as you know and in your opinion, what was the attitude of
21 the SVR and especially the crime police that you headed, did it make any
22 distinction when uncovering the crimes and perpetrators, based on the
24 A. The police must be understood as service of the citizens. It is
25 not -- it is not to be bound by any kind of ethnic delineations. We are
1 duty-bound to secure the same kind of protection, the same services, I
2 would say, towards all citizens, because, ultimately, not only are we
3 duty-bound by legal regulations to do this, but we are also paid with
4 taxpayers' money of Macedonian [as interpreted] ethnicity.
5 Q. Thank you. Let's go now to another topic.
6 You'll remember that we discussed yesterday the security situation
7 assessment and the fact that this assessment was made by the OVRs, because
8 they were best placed to know the situation in the field --
9 A. Excuse me. May I intervene into the translation?
10 Q. Yes. Yes, please go ahead?
11 A. I believe in 14:7, line 14:7, it should state, and I believe I
12 said, "all ethnicities," not just Macedonian ethnicity. I do not want to
13 be misinterpreted.
14 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much.
15 You remember saying yesterday that the OVRs, the departments of
16 internal affairs, were in charge of assessing the security situation
17 during that crisis time and to establish the number of check-points within
18 a given area, in order to be able to control the situation in the
19 territory they covered.
20 This would be a brief summary of our discussion yesterday. Do you
21 remember that?
22 A. Yes, I remember.
23 Q. And could you tell me, in these check-points, in 2001, how many
24 people were deployed there, if you can remember?
25 A. As I said, on the basis of the assessment which each OVR made for
1 its own territory, they decided on the location and the number of
2 employees who would be deployed there, to carry out the tasks provided for
3 on those check-points.
4 I could not say with certainty how many people deployed -- were
5 deployed by the OVR, but I can give an average, at least to my
6 understanding. There were check-points with five employees; there were
7 check-points with 15 deployed employees. It is within this scope of
9 Q. Thank you. Now, let's look at the document in tab 144, please.
10 That is --
11 A. This is the previous file, the previous binder?
12 Q. Yes, sir. Let's leave aside this third binder. We just saw three
13 criminal reports from it.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It is not 144, but 44; maybe
15 I misspoke. That is Exhibit 1D182.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat it, which
17 document we're looking at?
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We're looking at the document
19 after tab 44. That is Exhibit 1D182. Macedonian page is 1D1549 and the
20 English page is 1D5152 --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Macedonian page
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Tell me, what is this document and who is the body competent to
25 issue it?
1 A. This is an overview which was drafted as -- by OVR Cair. On the
2 basis of their security assessment, they prepared an overview of places
3 where there is possibilities for appearance of Albanian terrorists and
4 buildings of vital importance which could be targeted for attacks in the
5 area of OVR Cair; I will say it again, on the basis of their security
7 Q. Would you please look now at the page 1D5151.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 1D5155 in the English
10 Q. What is this document, actually?
11 A. This document lists the check-points, which OVR Cair established
12 in its area. These check-points - that is to say, this document - was
13 drafted by the deputy commander of police station Cair.
14 Q. Thank you. You stated, yesterday, that it had been possible,
15 depending on the security situation, to modify the check-points in a given
16 area. So could you repeat now who was in charge of performing such
18 A. The assessment of the security situation are updated and adjusted
19 to the current situation. This is normal. And once certain changes are
20 noted, usually the commander of the police station is the one who proposes
21 changes in the plan; and these proposal, these plans are approved by the
22 competent head of OVR Cair, the responsible OVR for a given territory.
23 Q. Thank you. Could we now look please at the document in tab 45.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 1D183. Page is 1D5157 in
25 Macedonian, while the English page is 1D5160.
1 Q. Before I ask you questions in relation to this document --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- does the OVR, regardless of whether it is the OVR Cair or any
4 other, after establishing the security situation and after defining the
5 number of check-points, does it inform anyone about it?
6 A. Yes. In view of the security situation, as I said yesterday, in
7 SVR Skopje, there was an operative headquarters. This amendment to the
8 plan, which was prepared by police station Mirkovci and approved by the
9 head of OVR Cair, was probably submitted to the headquarters of SVR
10 Skopje, in view of the fact that the headquarters had to be informed and
11 notified of the deployment of check-points in the area of OVR Cair, so
12 that we could provide assistance in the case of need.
13 Q. At the top of the document, something is written in handwriting.
14 Could you read that, Mr. Stojanovski, please?
15 A. Yes. It says that this is addressed to "ZAM." This is an
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This is an abbreviation,
18 probably, Deputy Pero Stojanov.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is probably addressed to me; and
20 at that time, I was probably at the headquarters of the SVR Skopje.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Very well. Thank you.
23 Now, Mr. Stojanovski, I will ask you to look at the documents that
24 are in your set from tab 46 to tab 57; and in the next couple of minutes,
25 could you please look carefully, first of all, at the nature of the
1 documents, what they are about.
2 And before I ask my question, we'll look together at the first
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's tab 46, P545.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see the document.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you tell me who issued it?
8 A. This is an order for conducting duties issued by the police
9 station Cair. So we can see further on who were the officers that this
10 order was pertaining to. These specific tasks are enumerated. The
11 deadline within which they need to be performed; as well as, at the end,
12 it says that six officers were deployed and each them had spent six hours
14 Q. So, in this last line, where we see 6 times 12, that means that
15 with this order the police station ordered that six persons be engaged for
16 12 hours each. Did I understand this correctly?
17 A. Yes. You have the number of people; then the number of hours; and
18 the total number of man hours for the people comprised by the order.
19 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, I asked you a moment ago - and I'm going to ask
20 you again - to look at documents from 46 to 57. All of them are similar
21 orders for performing certain duties, and pay attention to the number of
22 persons who were deployed within this time at various check-points.
23 While you're looking at this, I will just give the numbers of the
24 documents that you are viewing because of the transcript.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P545, Exhibit
1 P491, Exhibit 1D283, Exhibit 1D284, 65 ter 1D1149, Exhibit P539, Exhibit
2 P540, Exhibit P492, Exhibit P538, Exhibit P160 -- no, I apologise. Maybe
3 we need to skip P160, because this is not the same document.
4 Exhibit P34, under seal; Exhibit P541.
5 Q. Had you managed to look at it -- to look at them, rather?
6 A. Yes. I looked at the orders, and I can't see anything unusual
7 about them.
8 Was your question referring to --
9 Q. The number of persons deployed at these check-points, is it
10 normal? As you said, it could vary from five to 15. Did you notice any
11 extraordinary changes in the number of persons manning check-points?
12 A. Yes. I said that the average number of deployed officers ranged
13 between five and 15, but I can see here that in some situations even less
14 people were deployed.
15 Q. Were you able to observe in these orders that they relate to the
16 10th, 11th, and 12th August? Is that so?
17 A. I did not pay attention to that. Just a moment, please.
18 Yes, it is so.
19 Q. Were you able to observe any major variations in the number of
20 persons in relation to the days when the orders were issued?
21 A. I believe it is the usual number.
22 Q. Before I move on, I will ask you, Mr. Stojanovski, considering
23 that we don't have official CLSS translations for these documents, to read
24 the exact title of this order in Macedonian.
25 A. So the title is: "Order for performing duties," if this is what
1 you're referring to --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "Order for carrying
3 out service."
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Now, in light of what you have seen and said, could you pay
6 attention only to these orders for carrying out service that relate to the
7 12th of August. Could you look at all those documents again and
8 concentrate on the 12th of August.
9 A. I believe that I saw the documents with the date 12th of August.
10 Q. Tell me, did you notice on these documents an increase in the
11 number of persons manning check-points compared to the other documents?
12 Can you conclude on that basis that something unusual was going on, in
13 view of the normal number you testified to?
14 A. There is no increase in the number of persons manning the
15 check-points. I would say it is at the minimum, rather.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you know who Ljupco Bliznakovski is?
17 A. Yes. Mr. Bliznakovski was the assistant to the head of the SVR,
18 Skopje, in charge of the uniformed police. We had adjacent offices, and
19 we had held the same rank.
20 Q. What would you say if anyone testified before this Court that
21 Ljupco Bliznakovski had ordered the chief of OVR Cair to reinforce the
22 check-points? What would you say about such an allegation?
23 A. I believe that, to say the least, this would not really correspond
24 to the true situation, for at least two reasons: First of all,
25 Mr. Bliznakovski, I said already, we held the same rank, which means that
1 he could not issue an order to the head of the OVR, on the one hand; while
2 the second reason would be that the check-points were under the competence
3 of the OVR, and I don't see a reason why anyone would say that.
4 Q. Thank you. Let us now move on to another subject.
5 I'd like to ask you about your knowledge of the events between the
6 10th and 12th August 2001 in the area of Cair municipality; in particular,
7 Ljuboten village and the surrounding villages.
8 Did you have any knowledge about the events that happened in that
9 area on the 10th August 2001?
10 A. In accordance with the established information flow system,
11 information on the situation and on the events were arriving to both the
12 cabinet of the SVR Skopje and the headquarters of the SVR Skopje and also
13 to the duty operations centre of the SVR Skopje, and I can say that I had
14 the information and that I was relatively well-informed about what was
15 going on.
16 Q. Did any particular report stick in your memory, something that you
17 received on Friday, the 10th August? Did anything particularly memorable
19 A. I believe that that was the date when, in the morning, within the
20 area covered by OVR Cair, eight members of the army of the Republic of
21 Macedonia were killed.
22 Q. In light of that fact that was reported to you in some way, did
23 the police inform the judiciary; in other words, did you perform an
24 on-site investigation?
25 A. Since after this terrorist action -- since in that terrorist
1 action the army suffered casualties, and since this specific area was
2 under their control, we established some contacts aiming towards
3 performing an on-site investigation. However, the measures undertaken
4 were undertaken by the army of the Republic of Macedonia. If memory
5 serves, we contacted either the military police or the army command, and
6 they stated that they would undertake measure together with the
7 investigating judge for this purpose.
8 Q. Tell me, please, in relation to these incidents, did you talk to
9 the chief of OVR Cair?
10 A. I can't say with certainty who informed me about the incident. It
11 is possible that it was the head, chief of the OVR Cair; and, probably, we
12 did have communication regarding the decision who will make the on-site
13 investigation, whether it would be the SVR Skopje with its forensic
14 department that will assist the investigating judge, or whether it is
15 to be done by the army. And as I said before, that was done by the army
16 at the end.
17 Q. On that day, did you also learn that some armed persons had
18 entered the village?
19 A. If we're speaking about --
20 Q. The 10th.
21 A. If we're speaking about the 10th alone, yes, there were such
22 information that individuals entered the village; although, we had
23 previously information about their presence in that area.
24 Q. Would you now briefly look at documents from tab 60 -- that is 59,
25 sorry. Then 60, 61, 62, 63, 64. Then tell me, after reviewing them, if
1 those are reports that you had available to you at the time or maybe
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Those are Exhibits P158, P112,
4 P150, P1 -- sorry, 1D145, P151, and P114, under seal.
5 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, were these reports available to you at that time
6 or later? Did you know about the things contained in these documents?
7 A. Yes. I am familiar with the information and the materials. I
8 can't say precisely when was the first time I saw them; but with regards
9 to their content, yes, I'm familiar with that.
10 That is an Official Note produced by the Mirkovci police station,
11 which indicates that an army vehicle was hit on a mine -- by a mine and
12 eight soldiers were killed. Then it is a telegram where the cabinet of
13 the SVR Skopje is informed of --
14 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, I just asked to you review the documents because
15 they have been admitted into evidence already. I just wanted to ask you
16 if these reports were available to you. There's no need to look into each
17 of them individually.
18 In relation to that day, the 10th, did the chief of OVR Cair, to
19 the best of your recollection, talk to you about a meeting; and if he did,
20 tell me, what was that discussion about?
21 A. I believe that in the afternoon I was informed, or I do not know
22 whether the word "informed" is appropriate. He phoned me and asked for my
23 advice regarding some issue that the army was convening some working
24 meeting. I believe that it was related to the Ljubanci village.
25 Q. And what was your answer to the chief when he asked you about
1 that; can you remember?
2 A. It was a bit unusual, the reason for him calling me. I believe
3 that I told him that, if I were in his shoes, I would like to know what
4 was going on in -- in the area I'm covering; and it was usual, normal, to
5 have contacts with the army anyhow. So I could not understand the point
6 of his phone call.
7 Q. Did the chief of OVR Cair ever call you again, after asking you
8 for your advice?
9 A. I can't state with certainty, but I believe that he did call me
10 and said -- yes. He mentioned the army, that allegedly the army was
11 planning some activities but also that it did not entail any obligation.
12 No obligations relevant for us were given at that meeting.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We'll take the first break now and resume at 11.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. We discussed a moment ago what you had learned, what information
21 you had on the 10th of August.
22 Tell me, please, Mr. Stojanovski, before we move on to the 11th,
23 in the course of your work, who do you normally contact? Who are all the
24 persons you are in touch with?
25 A. Usually, I contact the heads of the OVR. It is usual that I
1 contact the heads of organisational units I was superior to; further on,
2 members of international organisations. Very often, I had many contacts
3 with my colleagues about issues of different nature.
4 Q. Speaking of your contacts with chiefs of departments of internal
5 affairs or criminal investigation sections of these departments, tell me,
6 how many such calls did you receive at the time of crisis?
7 A. This was an enormous number of calls, discussions, and
8 conversations. I believe that I had at least two hours of conversations
9 on my cell phone, not to mention the other two phones. I had an external
10 line, an internal line in the ministry. Indeed, an enormous number of
12 Q. This morning we saw documents that dealt with these events and
13 incidents of vandalism in Skopje after the report of the killing of the
14 soldier at Karpalak. Did that incident cause any involvement on your
15 part; and if so, to what extent?
16 A. I'm not sure, but I believe I mentioned that the situation was
17 extremely tense, critical; that we had very limited resources available;
18 that the crime police was not fully staffed; and from that number, about
19 50 per cent had to be given as assistance to uniformed police.
20 We faced a situation where people had to be engaged in Radusa, one
21 of the hot spots that put one million strong city under threat to be left
22 without water. There were daily problems in front of the assembly. We
23 had problems with the airport because around the village of Aracinovo
24 terrorists were noted, which could have threatened the security of the
1 Further, we had problems with the roads Skopje-Pristina, an
2 international highway which we were duty-bound to keep open and which
3 was -- there were many attempts to block this road because it was an
4 international road, and KFOR also used this road for logistics for their
5 forces in Kosovo.
6 There were terrorist group in the city itself. They killed our
7 police officers, whether it be in a store or on the street. I believe the
8 situation was extremely dire.
9 Q. I think you have sufficiently described the circumstances in which
10 you worked; and in view of that situation, do you still remember what
11 happened on the 11th of August that still stands out in your memory?
12 A. The most major event, if I can say this, on this date was the very
13 violent clashes in Radusa. This is a place nearby Skopje, from where the
14 capital is -- receives its water supply. We had police forces surrounded
15 by terrorists and under constant attack.
16 Q. How do you know about that incident in Radusa? Because the combat
17 activities of the army and the police force are not strictly within your
19 A. On the one hand, I said that I was a member of the operative
20 headquarters Skopje; and, on the other, I mentioned that my colleague,
21 Bliznakovski, was next to my office. He was located in the office next to
22 mine, and we were close by. We exchanged information. We usually knew
23 what the other one was working, and he directly involved in this clash.
24 Together, with the special unit, they went to Radusa in order to help the
25 colleagues who were surrounded by terrorists at that time, and he tried to
1 extract them. He tried to help them.
2 I believe this was happening in the course of the whole day, and
3 it was only by night-fall that the situation became calmer. This is when
4 he came back to the premises of the SVR.
5 Q. In view of what you know about the incidents of the 11th in
6 Radusa, what would you say if it were to be established before this Court
7 that on that day your colleague, Mr. Ljupco Bliznakovski, had attended a
8 meeting at the command of the city, and then issued an order to the chief
9 of OVR Cair to reinforce check-points in his area?
10 How would you comment on that, in view of what you know about the
11 events at the time? Would that be consistent with your information?
12 A. I think I explained previously that Mr. Bliznakovski --
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. But in line 20, it
14 says: [in English]... Court established that on that day ..."
15 [Interpretation] I didn't say that the Court established anything.
16 I said, "if it were to be established before this Court"; that is, if
17 anyone claimed before this Court.
18 Q. Can you tell me, in view of what you know from that time --
19 A. Excuse me. Shall I continue my answer?
20 Q. Maybe you should repeat, since I interrupted you.
21 A. As I explained previously, the position of Mr. Bliznakovski did
22 not allow him to issue orders. However, in view of the fact that I
23 personally know where he was, this statement would most probably, would
24 certainly be a lie.
25 Q. Tell me, Mr. Stojanovski, did there come a time when the chief of
1 OVR Cair called you and asked you anything about that alleged meeting at
2 the city command of Skopje on the 11th of August?
3 A. There was no such thing. I'm sure of this. This did not happen.
4 Q. Before these dates - the 10th, the 11th - or during those days,
5 that is, within several weeks of these events or at the time of the
6 events, did the chief of OVR Cair ever mention to you or indicate to you
7 that he received a call at his home from Minister Ljube Boskoski?
8 A. I don't believe this happened. He has not notified me.
9 Q. Did the chief of OVR Cair ever tell you or inform you or asked you
10 for advice in relation to the alleged order of the minister that he would
11 send to him Johan Tarculovski and that the minister told him on that
12 occasion that he should give Johan Tarculovski anything he asks for?
13 Were you aware of any such thing?
14 A. If I understand you correctly, allegedly the minister called the
15 head of OVR Cair?
16 Q. Yes. And told him to receive a certain person, as I said, Johan
17 Tarculovski, and provide him with everything he asks for.
18 A. Such information, I did not receive such information.
19 Q. You said, yesterday, that in practice you never heard that the
20 minister had ever issued any order to anyone, including you; although, you
21 were in a higher position. Is that consistent with the answer that you
22 just gave, that you had never heard of such a thing?
23 A. In my professional experience, up until now, I have no knowledge
24 of information for this manner of communication.
25 Q. All right. Thank you. Tell me, please, Mr. Stojanovski, on the
1 10th or the 11th, did the chief of OVR Cair ask you about anything else,
2 to the best of your recollection?
3 A. I cannot recall.
4 Q. If somebody were to ask you whether they should distribute weapons
5 to certain persons, would you remember that?
6 A. I would most probably remember, because, if you forgive me, this
7 is kind of a stupid question.
8 Q. Why do you say it's not a normal question?
9 A. It is completely outside of my competencies. Crime police and
10 distribution of weapons, they don't go together, these two things.
11 Q. If anyone claimed before this Court that you had issued an order
12 to distribute weapons to certain persons at OVR Cair, what would you say
13 to that?
14 A. That it's a lie.
15 Q. Tell me, please, on the 10th or the 11th, did anyone inform you
16 that Manager Mitevski had issued an order to distribute weapons to certain
18 A. Such -- I have not received such information; although, once
19 again, I don't see the logic that the direction -- director would issue
20 orders to that extent.
21 Q. Are there any regulations in the Ministry of Internal Affairs
22 governing this matter?
23 A. Yes, there are regulations. And, in addition to these
24 regulations, there is an organisational unit which is duty-bound to carry
25 out these regulations. I can speak about the example of SVR Skopje, where
1 there was a department for defence preparations. This was within their
2 competencies, and each OVR also had people who were charged with these
4 Q. If anyone claimed before this Court that Director Mitevski had
5 issued an order to distribute weapons to certain persons and that you had
6 agreed to that and ordered that this instruction of Director Mitevski be
7 carried out, what would you say to that?
8 A. Again, I would say that, in the least, that this is a stupid
9 assertion, because my position, as assistant, to give consent to an order
10 of a superior, which is much higher up in the hierarchy than I am, is not
11 logical. I don't think there is any need to comment on this.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us move now to events of the 12th of
14 On the 12th of August, did you receive any reports to the effect
15 that something was going on in Ljuboten or the environs?
16 A. I don't know exactly at what time, but it was during the morning
17 hours that I received the information that the army and police points in
18 and around Ljuboten were attacked.
19 Q. In addition to that report, did you receive any other reports
20 during that day?
21 A. I cannot claim with certainty, but I believe it was the head of
22 OVR Cair who informed me that the army had undertaken adequate activities.
23 Q. Did Chief Krstevski call you again later during that week, one
24 morning or around noon, or is it the case that you had no other calls from
1 A. I believe, yes. He called regarding -- he was asking me how a
2 report is given.
3 Q. And why? Why did you ask you that?
4 A. He was informed by the duty centre that Mr. Boskoski, the Minister
5 of the Interior, will be visiting this area, and he was asking me how this
6 official report is given. This was rather funny, because, as civilian
7 structures, we don't deal with this issue. Reporting is not part of the
8 tasks which we have or the way we act. I suggested to him that, according
9 to my view, it is quite sufficient that he present a brief information
10 about the situation in the area.
11 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, that afternoon, did you have any contacts with
12 the chief or did any reports reach you about what was going on in the area
13 of OVR Cair, Ljuboten, Ljubanci, Radisani, and other places?
14 A. In the afternoon, we began to receive quite some information,
15 stating that part of the population is attempting to leave the village,
16 and that some persons were brought in or were taken by the army and handed
17 over to the police. I believe that there were not so much different but
18 information of this kind as activities unfolded.
19 Q. About those first reports you received, that some people were
20 taken into custody and brought into the police station, at the time you
21 received those first reports, was there any talk about taking some steps
22 that are usual in the work of crime police?
23 A. In view of the fact that the military action -- in the course of
24 the military action, persons with weapons were imprisoned or - I don't
25 know which term to use - were brought in or taken in. This was a
1 situation that required the involvement of the crime police, in order to
2 clarify the case. These persons were taken into custody in the police
3 station Mirkovci, and the crime police of OVR Cair began working on
4 clarifying the case.
5 Q. What you just said, taking people into custody, starting an
6 investigation, all that began in the OVR Cair, are all these activities
7 normally within the purview of OVR Cair, and why was it that OVR Cair was
8 in charge of that, if they were?
9 A. I believe I have mentioned previously that for all activities that
10 happened on the territory of a given OVR, it is that OVR that is
11 duty-bound to undertake certain measures. In this case, this was an event
12 that happened on the territory of OVR Cair; and, therefore, this was the
13 obligation and task of that OVR to work on that case. There were no
14 requests for assistance or support from SVR -- to SVR Skopje to help on
15 this case.
16 We received information that about ten persons were brought in
17 with weapons in the police station Mirkovci, that members of the crime
18 police of OVR Cair are already working and are interviewing some of the
19 persons, and that some of the persons were injured and these were provided
20 medical assistance. There was no reason for us to become involved or to
21 secure any kind of support for them.
22 Q. Is it the case that you received some other reports that afternoon
23 relating to incidents at check-points or perhaps the arrest and bringing
24 in of other persons into police stations?
25 A. Yes. The day was interesting, if I may say so, with regards to
1 the events that took place then. I was informed that one part of the
2 population of Ljuboten village were moving towards the check-points and
3 trying to leave the village; and that, at the same time, the population of
4 Ljubanci and Radisani were preparing to accost them and they did accost
5 them, unfortunately, and there were -- there had already been incidents
6 between them.
7 I believe that it was then that the SVR Skopje was involved for
8 the first time. Mr. Bliznakovski, upon the order of Mr. Galevski, who
9 died in the meantime, as you know, he organised the involvement of the
10 posebna unit in the resolving of these events, from the -- in order to
11 prevent or, actually, to save the Albanian population that was leaving the
12 village because it was accosted and ill-treated, if I may say so, by the
13 Macedonian population. The OVR Cair was not able, having in mind its
14 capacities, to put this under control.
15 Q. Regarding the tasks of the crime police, you said that you
16 received certain reports as to what had been done in the Mirkovci police
17 station and all that was usual, normal procedure, and you were not
18 involved in any way.
19 Now, regarding other people who were arrested, did the OVR make
20 any requests for assistance with regard to them?
21 A. Yes. With regards to the Mirkovci police station, it was like
22 that; but later on, the chief of the OVR Cair, I believe, although I can't
23 say with certainty whether it was the chief of the OVR Cair or the chief
24 of the department for operations, Mr. Josevski, informed me that there
25 were many detained persons, and they were lacking sufficient capacities to
1 keep them in the police stations.
2 Also, they informed that among those persons who were brought
3 there, there were individuals who they believed had participated in the
4 armed activities; so terrorists, so to say, who were leaving their
5 weapons, changing their clothes, and trying to leave that area together
6 with the population.
7 I established contact with the chief of the organised crime and
8 coordination department, Mr. Bojic, and he undertook certain measures to
9 secure a room in other police station to transfer the detainees there. I
10 believe that I had contacts with the head of the forensic department,
11 and I requested that he provided as many teams as possible that
12 would make the paraffin glove tests in order to secure evidence that the
13 OVR Cair would need later in order to verify those assertions.
14 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, that afternoon, were you aware that there were
15 people dead in Ljuboten?
16 A. Yes. I believe that somewhere in the evening such information
17 arrived. I believe it was sent from the Mirkovci police station by the
18 duty officer. I believe that it spoke of five individuals who were
19 allegedly killed during the fights there, and I believe that that
20 information was processed and that the duty operations centre of SVR
21 Skopje informed the investigating judge about that case.
22 Q. Do you know whether an on-site investigation was carried out on
23 the 12th?
24 A. Regarding -- as far as I know, the investigating judge, I believe,
25 went to the OVR Cair. However, whether he went there and whether he spoke
1 to the chief of the OVR Cair, I can't really remember. But whatever else
2 happened, he did not accept to have an on-site investigation in such
3 security situation.
4 Q. I will now ask you, Mr. Stojanovski, in order to move on more
5 quickly through this examination, to look at documents starting with tab
6 68 to tab 80.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is
8 Exhibit P155, under seal; P395; P23, under seal; P160; then P257; P160;
9 P106, under seal; P157, under seal; P154, under seal; P155, under seal;
10 P107, under seal; 65 ter number 488; P147.
11 Q. As you look at this, you see that, for the most part, these
12 documents relate to the 12th of August, 2001.
13 Mr. Stojanovski, now that you have reviewed a number of documents
14 dated 12th August 2001, could you tell me whether they corroborate the
15 information that was available to you on the 12th; and if so, to what
16 extent; and, second, whether you had seen them before?
17 A. I skimmed through the documents now quickly, and I believe they do
18 correspond to what I testified to previously. And with regards to where
19 have I seen these documents, I can't be certain, since it is possible that
20 I had seen them then, but it is also possible that I had seen them later
21 during the work of the committee. So I couldn't say with certainty when
22 it was that I had seen those documents for the first time, then or a bit
23 later --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In line 35.7, "when"
25 instead of "where."
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But as I said, I believe that these
2 documents reflect what was also included in my testimony about these
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You just mentioned some committee or commission. I'm not sure
6 what you said. What was that about? You said, "during the work," as we
7 have on the record, "of the committee." What was that about? What work
8 and what body was it?
9 A. One day later, on the 13th of August, I was informed by
10 Mr. Efremov, who was then the chief of the SVR Skopje, that the minister
11 established a committee to investigate the events that took place at
12 Ljuboten. I had not seen that document, and Mr. Efremov tasked me with
13 being, in a way, the contact person for the work with the committee.
14 Q. On the 12th, did you at all go to OVR Cair or perhaps the area
15 where the events happened?
16 A. No. There was no need of my presence there.
17 Q. And if anyone claimed before this Court that, on the evening of
18 the 12th, you were at OVR Cair, would that jog your memory, that you,
19 indeed, had gone there, or what would you say about that?
20 A. This is not true, and I don't know what were the reasons for such
21 assertions. I couldn't comment on that.
22 Q. What was the first time that you went to the area of Cair
23 municipality after these events?
24 A. It was on the 14th of August. Mr. Efremov tasked me with that.
25 And, chronologically speaking, on the 13th, in the afternoon, Mr. Efremov
1 informed me of the existence of that committee and my duties towards that
2 committee. And since no on-site investigation was conducted in the area
3 of the village of Ljuboten on the previous day because of the security
4 situation then, I believe that he had certain contacts with an MP,
5 Mr. Fatmir Etemi, in order to bring the situation to a calm, so that we
6 can carry out the on-site investigation in Ljuboten.
7 And, at the same time, since the minister showed his interest in
8 this event, he requested that I be directly physically present during the
9 on-site investigation, so that I could have the first-hand information on
10 the events in the village. That was probably the idea.
11 But during the afternoon, during that communication with the MP
12 and with the court, the evening came, darkness fell. The conditions were
13 not proper to perform the on-site investigation, and it was decided to do
14 it on the following day.
15 Q. That was the 14th of August.
16 A. Yes, the 14th of August.
17 Q. And did the court assign a team or did you go there as well as you
18 were assigned to by your chief?
19 A. I'm not certain. I believe that Mr. Stavrev was the investigating
20 judge, and I went to the premises of the OVR Cair, together with the
21 forensics police team. We meet there the Chief Krstevski, and we worked
22 in his office. I did follow the conversation. The situation was very
23 interesting. Mr. Efremov was not present, but he contacted Mr. Ademi --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Mr. Etemi.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Etemi relayed information to
1 Mr. Efremov that it is possible to enter the village; and, at the same
2 time, after this conversation, he would call Mr. Krstevski telling him
3 that it was not possible to enter the village. So this all went on three
4 or four times.
5 After that, there was some attempts made to reach a bargain or
6 agreement that the investigating judge would enter the village alone, that
7 the police would not enter the village with him, but the investigating
8 judge refused this and some sporadic fire was heard.
9 After several hours of going towards the village, going back and
10 forth, I believe that Mr. Etemi reported that the bodies were already
11 buried, and the investigating judge decided that we would leave the
12 location, that the on-site investigation would be illogical in the
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Upon that decision of the investigating judge not to go in, to go
16 back and then come back again, was the police, in any way, able to
17 influence him?
18 A. Probably. I'm not an expert for theoretical explanation of law,
19 but I believe I managed to explain yesterday that the investigating judge
20 is superior in such cases, and that the police has no possibility to
21 influence his decisions.
22 Q. Would you please now look at tab 119.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's document 1D6. It's page N000-7350;
24 and in English, it's 7350 to 7351.
25 Q. As we can see, this is an Official Note of the Lower Court of
1 Skopje II, the investigation department. Have you ever had occasion to
2 see this document before?
3 A. No, I haven't seen this document.
4 Q. Can you turn to page 2 of this document. And at the bottom of
5 that page, you will see Investigating Judge Ognen Stavrev. Is that the
6 judge you mentioned?
7 A. Yes, yes. I read his last name, and I believe he was the one.
8 Q. The second paragraph of this document, it is stated:
9 "In relation to this event, on the 12th of August that same year,
10 the duty investigating judge, at 1730, was informed by the MOI, SVR duty
11 operations centre, that in the area of Ljuboten and Ljubanci villages in
12 Skopje vicinity, there were several members of the paramilitary of the
13 Albanian terrorists killed, but no one could come close to the bodies
14 because, at that moment, the military activities were still going on.
15 "The investigating judge informed the deputy public prosecutor,
16 Roska Karova, about the information received from the MOI. The
17 investigating judge was also informed that the safety of the investigation
18 bodies, the court, and the public prosecutor's office was not guaranteed
19 because of the clashes that were still going on. So this is why no
20 investigating measures were undertaken, more precisely because of the
21 military clashes that were still going on between the above mentioned
22 paramilitary forces and the security forces of the Republic of Macedonia.
23 "Dr. Aleksej Duma, director of the Forensic Medicine and
24 Criminology Institute, was informed of the situation."
25 This report made by Judge Ognen Stavrev, is it consistent with
1 what you know about the events of the 12th of August, 2001, in early
2 evening hours?
3 A. With regards to the events taking place and the measures taken by
4 the duty operations centre, yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Would you please turn the first page of -- second page
6 of this document.
7 Would you kindly look at it. Let's not read it out loud; it is a
8 long document.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The first page, please, N000-7350;
10 and the English page is the same number, 7350-7351.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Again, this is an Official
12 Note from the investigating unit of Basic Court Skopje, drafted on the
13 15th. It describes the events or measures that were taken by the
14 investigating judge on the 14th.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. What is written here, does it correspond to your knowledge about
17 the events taking place then, because you, yourself, were present there at
18 the OVR Cair?
19 A. I think it does correspond, except maybe I'm not sure about the
20 segment related to the OSCE. I cannot say with certainty, but I think
21 they visited the village somewhere in the afternoon on the 13th.
22 Q. However, certainly in this part, speaking about the court
23 attempting to enter and failing at that --
24 A. Yes. This segment is as is; although, it is in an abbreviated
25 form. There were much more games surrounding this whole issue.
1 Q. Very well. Would you then look at the document in tab 121,
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit 1D72.
4 Q. This is the basic public prosecutor's office. The document is
5 signed by the deputy public prosecutor, Milan Gelevski.
6 Tell me, do you remember whether the deputy prosecutor accompanied
7 the investigation team?
8 A. Yes, this is the usual practice.
9 Q. Were any medical professionals present there during the on-site
10 inspection on the 14th?
11 A. I think there was a doctor there, but I cannot recall the name.
12 Q. Does this note correspond to your knowledge of the events that you
13 testified about, that an attempt was made to enter the village and that
14 due to reasons described in this Official Note, it was not possible to
15 enter the village?
16 A. Generally speaking, I think it's in good order and it reflects the
18 Q. If I understood you well, you stated that at the end you received
19 information that the bodies were buried. So did it make any sense to then
20 perform the on-site investigation? Based on your experience, what do you
22 A. With this procedure, with this act, the crime scene -- the scene
23 of the event has changed, is changed dramatically. So, in my experience,
24 the on-site investigation would not have the importance, and it could not
25 provide relevant information. There would be no need for it in a -- in a
1 changed situation to carry out an on-site investigation, such as this.
2 Q. Would you please look at the document in tab 98.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P148. This is an
4 Official Note.
5 Q. Tell me, before you look at the contents of the document, this is
6 an official note from the OVR-OOR Cair, so the department that verifies
7 and uncovers events that are believed to constitute crimes. Is my
8 understanding of this document correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does it correspond to your testimony, that until the matter is
11 taken by the prosecutor or the judge, that the exclusive competence
12 belongs to the OVR?
13 A. I hope I was able to correctly elaborate on this yesterday.
14 Q. And if, on the 12th, there had been some information that there
15 were dead bodies in the village, who would be in charge of trying to
16 arrive at information on the identity of the individuals and what has
17 happened to them?
18 A. OVR Cair is responsible for the area under its charge, so to say;
19 and it is their obligation to try to secure all necessary information
20 pertaining to the pre-criminal procedure, the preliminary procedure, or
21 when they are acting upon the request of the public prosecutor and
22 investigating judge.
23 Q. Thank you. In the first paragraph of this Official Note it is
24 stated: "On the 14th of August 2001 at around 1800 hours, at the premises
25 of the department of internal affairs OOR Cair, I have carried out a
1 conversation with the person Sali Nimelula, born on 5 May 1964 in the
2 village Ljuboten, residing at Kovacka Street, number 10, in Skopje..."
3 Tell me, Mr. Stojanovski, whether this effort of the competent
4 bodies, when they are not able to enter the village, should try to involve
5 other persons or do they need to adhere to some patterns prescribed of
7 A. One aspect is collection of information and another is undertaking
8 measures. Where information is concerned, they can try to do so from
9 various sources.
10 Q. So this is where the competent bodies had an interview with a
11 person who resides in Skopje, since they believed that he was able to
12 provide information. Is that what I read?
13 A. Yes. I believe I mentioned previously that OVR Cair is the relevant
14 organisational unit and according to this document, they did undertake
15 the activities which were their tasks to take, which are part of their
17 Q. And, so, these measures described in the Official Note corroborate
18 your evidence, that such measures are duties of the OVR on the territory
19 of which the event took place. Is that correct?
20 A. This is correct.
21 Q. Would you now please look at the document in tab 99.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P490.
23 Q. You see that this is a report. On the second page, you see find the
24 signature of the head of the OVR Cair, Ljube Krstevski. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And please read briefly the contents and tell me whether this
2 report wrote by the head Krstevski corresponds to your knowledge of the
3 events of that day.
4 A. I think the content is accurate and falls under the competencies
5 of the OVR.
6 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let's go back to an issue that we also
7 started discussing already.
8 When answering my question, you said that at one point in time OVR
9 Cair requested assistance from the SVR regarding the accommodation and
10 detention of the persons who were brought in and the paraffin glove tests,
11 and that you appointed Milorad Bojic to assist OVR Cair with regards to
12 the questions asked. Do you remember having said that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tell me whether Milorad Bojic had sufficient professional
15 experience to be able to render expert assistance to OVR Cair?
16 A. Yes, of course. He is a very competent employee.
17 Q. Did Milorad Bojic, the person who you appointed to assist the OVR
18 Cair, inform you of any facts, problems, or anything related to the
19 request of assistance that the head and the officers of the OVR Cair
21 A. There were certain problems; above all, problems related to
22 keeping the people, the detention of these people. That is to say, OVR
23 Cair did not have sufficient capacity for detained persons and that more
24 police stations need to be included in order for them to be held in
25 conditions that would enable work to be done with them.
1 The number of persons that were brought in was also a problem.
2 Also, a problem was the fact that, in a very short period of time, we have
3 the right to detain persons for 24 hours. Therefore, in 24 hours, a lot
4 of activities needed to be taken, especially from the forensic department,
5 but I still believe that Mr. Bojic resolved this in a satisfactory
7 He established contact with the public prosecutor and
8 investigating judge, asked their permission that we be allowed to detain
9 these people until paraffin gloves were taken that were requested by OVR
10 Cair. This was done during a working meeting at the premises of SVR
12 But another obligation stemmed from this working meeting, an
13 obligation for OVR Cair, that the criminal report which they were planning
14 to file against the persons that would -- in fact, we had information that
15 the paraffin gloves had tested positive, and that this criminal report
16 must be divided into three because the prosecutor and the investigating
17 judge did not have the capacity to process all these people against whom
18 criminal reports needed to be filed.
19 Q. Thank you. Would you please now look at the document in tab 104.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P262.
21 Q. This is an Official Note written by Toskovski Blagoja on the 17th
22 of August, 2001, and the second paragraph reads: "On 13th of August,
23 2001, at around 1700 hours, at a meeting held in the premises of the SVR
24 Skopje, OSOOK, in the presence of the chief of the OSOOK, Bojic Milorad,
1 Does ZJO stand for the deputy prosecutor?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Lazar Katrandziski, in the role of VD, that would mean acting; is
4 that so?
5 A. Yes, this is the usual abbreviation.
6 Q. So acting deputy OJO stands for basic public prosecutor's office?
7 A. The abbreviation OJO means basic public prosecutor's office.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness and the
9 counsel to pause and to avoid overlapping.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
11 Q. Reading this, I wanted you to clarify the abbreviations so that we
12 know what they are about.
13 A. Acting basic public prosecutor and deputy public prosecutor.
14 Q. And Jovo Serafimovski, the following agreement was reached: "The
15 detained individuals from the area of village of Ljuboten, where fighting
16 occurred between the joint security forces against -- and terrorist
17 groups, are to be held in police stations until the end of the entire
18 preliminary procedure, due to the large number of detained individuals and
19 shortage of time for completion of the entire procedure.
20 "The investigating judge of Basic Court Skopje II, Bekir Sain [as
21 interpreted], was informed of the recommendation and the agreement reached
22 by the aforementioned deputies of the basic public prosecutor and the
23 chief of the OSOOK at SVR Skopje.
24 "A joint agreement was reached and confirmed with the
25 investigating judge of Basic Court Skopje II, Bekir Sain, that the
1 individuals are to be detained until the completion of the entire
3 Mr. Stojanovski, with regards to this document, tell me, who was
4 the only one who could approve that the persons who were brought in are
5 held for longer than 24 hours, at the expiry of those 24 hours?
6 A. The investigating judge and the public prosecutor.
7 Q. Tell me, please, when we are speaking about this procedure, was
8 the judge who was informed about it, was he Bekir Sain, and do you know
9 what was his ethnicity?
10 A. I believe his name is Bekir Shahini, and I also believe he is of
11 Albanian ethnicity. The translation, Shahini.
12 Q. And tell me whether this document reflects the information that
13 you learned from Bojic Milorad at that time?
14 A. I think it does reflect it, but I cannot see that part about which
15 I was informed pertaining to the division of the criminal report,
16 separating them into three criminal reports, at the request of the public
18 Q. As we can see from this Official Note, also the active basic
19 public prosecutor and one of the deputies to the public prosecutor were
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Considering your testimony yesterday, did the police need to
23 follow the instructions that it receives from the prosecutor or the judge
24 in this specific case as well?
25 A. Yes. They're obligatory for us; however, allow me to correct
1 myself. I think the agreement was struck later; that is to say,
2 guidelines given by the public prosecutor, Vilma Ruskovska, in this area
3 regarding the criminal report. I am speaking about the guidelines
4 according to which OVR Cair later acted.
5 Q. Very well. And, tell me, who was in charge of filing the criminal
7 A. In view of the place where this event happened, OVR Cair.
8 Q. And considering that from this note we can see that the
9 investigating judge had already been informed and had been aware of the
10 detained individuals, from your practice, then later, who had the
11 competence over the detained individuals?
12 A. From the moment when the investigating judge is included, he has
13 full competence over the case, full responsibility over the case.
14 Q. We discussed the competences of the police once it files a
15 criminal report several times yesterday. And if I can interpret freely
16 what you said several times, after that moment, the police only acts upon
17 the order of either the prosecutor, who is requesting additional
18 information, or the investigating judge, who already decided that an
19 investigation would be open.
20 Is this a summary of what you testified to several times
21 yesterday? Is this a fair summary?
22 A. Yes, in the Macedonian language, the request for collecting
23 certain information; however, this doesn't change the essence of what you
24 have said.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due
1 respect, as you noticed this morning, I failed to finish within the
2 planned time. I have some additional 45 minutes to one hour of
3 questioning, so I kindly ask you to allow me to continue my direct
4 examination on Monday.
5 JUDGE PARKER: We're always warm and generous on Friday.
6 We adjourn now for the weekend and resume at 9.00 on Monday.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.29 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of
10 February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.