1 Wednesday, 20 February 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Professor.
7 Would you please stand and read aloud the affirmation on the card.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: SLAGJANA TASEVA
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
13 Could the Chamber mention to counsel for all parties that we are
14 conscious that we have been slipping behind in recent days, and in the
15 case of this witness, we have, of course, a detailed written report, and
16 we would hope, because of that, that counsel for all parties avoids going
17 over material that is already covered adequately in the report, so that we
18 can focus on matters additional to the report or which are thought to be
19 controversial in the report.
20 Thank you very much.
21 Ms. Residovic.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
23 Examination by Ms. Residovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Professor Taseva.
25 A. Good afternoon.
1 Q. Professor Taseva, we have met already, but I will still introduce
2 myself. My name is Edina Residovic, and together with my colleague
3 Guenael Mettraux, I appear for the Defence of Mr. Ljube Boskoski.
4 I kindly ask you, Ms. Taseva, would you state your full name
5 before this Court.
6 A. My name is Slagjana Taseva.
7 Q. Professor Taseva, you and I do not speak the same language, but
8 you do understand very well the language that I am speaking, and I do
9 understand the language that you are speaking. That would give us an
10 opportunity to swiftly exchange questions and answers. However, my
11 question and your answer need to be interpreted for the Chamber and the
12 colleagues in the courtroom to be able to understand what I'm asking and
13 what are you answering. Therefore, I ask you to wait a while, to pause
14 after my question until the question is interpreted and reply only after
16 Did you understand this?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Professor Taseva, I will ask you questions that are derived from
19 your report. I am clear that your report contains your opinion on several
20 specific issues. I will still ask you in order to further clarify the
21 process through which you arrived at a certain conclusion or an opinion,
22 to elucidate on the way and process of your producing the report, and the
23 factual basis you had in mind when you were giving your opinions or
25 Before we move on to those questions, I will kindly ask that the
1 first binder is distributed to the witness and the Chamber, and the first
2 document in it is the CV of this expert.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, in case I have misunderstood you or
4 you misunderstood me, the CV of the witness, for example, has been clearly
5 set out in the papers. It shouldn't need you to go to it unless there is
6 some particular omission or matter that needs to be clarified.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understood you
8 fully. However, I would like just to indicate several of the professional
9 achievements of Madam Taseva, and I would like Ms. Taseva to confirm
10 before this Court that that is her CV so that I could tender it into
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Certainly the last part is fine. I suspect that we
14 would disagree about the first part, but your intentions are not
15 altogether clear to me yet.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe I would be
17 able to clarify. When we offered this report, the Prosecutor requested in
18 addition to the CV, some additional information that the Defence provided
19 in the response to the Prosecutor's motion with regards to the expert
20 opinion. Perhaps it would be proper to repeat this part only, because it
21 is not fully contained in this CV. If the Court believes that this is
22 part of the response that we gave to Prosecutor's motion, then it won't be
23 necessary to go over this again.
24 JUDGE PARKER: You will, no doubt, remember that you were
25 successful in respect of that motion.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then I received the
2 response that I needed and I will not go over that again. Thank you very
4 Q. Professor Taseva, we have here your CV, that is 65 ter 1D1277 in
5 our list of exhibits. Tell me, Madam Taseva, is everything that is
6 written in this CV the accurate and truthful description of your academic
7 professional and other achievements and activities that you were involved
8 in and that you are still performing?
9 A. Absolutely and fully, everything is truthful and correct.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, after this answer, I
11 seek to tender the CV of Professor Taseva as a Defence exhibit.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D309, Your Honours.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Madam Professor, could you clarify for us what was the subject of
16 your expert opinion and what was the process through which you produced
17 the report that we are discussing before this Honourable Court?
18 A. The topic of my expert report were a number of issues posed by the
19 Defence which pertain, for the most part, to the procedures in the legal
20 system of the Republic of Macedonia, to the legal positioning of
21 institutions and their place and role in undertaking specific activities
22 related to police activity and penal procedures.
23 Q. On page 3 of your report, which is 65 ter 1D1279, 1D0225,
24 enumerated are the issues that the Defence raised with you and asked you
25 to respond to them in accordance with the -- your expert knowledge and
1 professional experience.
2 Tell me, Professor Taseva, were those all questions that the
3 Defence asked you so that you produce your expert report on the basis of
5 A. This is exactly so. On page 3 of the report, in point 1, the
6 topics are listed about which the Defence asked of me to provide my expert
7 report. If there is need, I will read through them. I will read these
8 topics. This is the position of the Ministry of Interior within the
9 structure of the Republic of Macedonia. Then division of labour, or
10 relationships within the Ministry of the Interior. Employees of the
11 Ministry of Interior. The concept of authorised official. Role and
12 position of the minister in the Ministry of Interior. Functioning of the
13 chain of command of the Ministry of Interior. Role and function of the
14 employees of the Ministry of Interior in relation to criminal
15 investigations. The role of the minister of interior and criminal
16 investigations. The role of the minister of interior and disciplinary
17 process. Special commissions in the Ministry of Interior. And the Law
18 on Amnesty.
19 Q. Thank you very much, Professor Taseva. Considering the fact that
20 this is the very beginning, we read through the materials to an extent but
21 we will follow the instructions of the Chamber and in the further course
22 of the examination, I will take into account and I kindly ask to you take
23 into account that we do not need to repeat what has already been stated in
24 the report.
25 Professor Taseva, tell me, please, before the Defence requested
1 you to produce the report on the issues that we mentioned, did you ever
2 have contact with the team of the Defence of Mr. Boskoski?
3 A. Yes. At the onset of 2006 - I believe it was the end of February
4 or the beginning of March, I cannot recall the exact date - was my first
5 meeting with Mr. Dragan Godzo and with you. During this time we talked
6 about whether I would accept to provide an expert position on another
7 report which the Defence had from another expert. This was our first
8 cooperation, the beginning of 2006. Once this report was completed and
9 submitted, the ensuing meeting was at the end of 2006, in September. I
10 believe September 2007; I cannot exactly remember the dates, at which time
11 you asked of me to prepare this report. In the meantime, there were other
12 contacts because previously we agreed that if you -- you required my
13 opinion as a consultant on certain issues, that you should feel free to
14 turn to me. As a result, we had several contacts from the beginning of
15 2006 till today.
16 Q. Thank you. That first contact, Madam Professor, tell me whether
17 it was about your opinion as a consultant to the findings of
18 Terry Burgess, that was the report that -- or the expert that the
19 Prosecutor's office offered as an expert on police matters.
20 A. This is so.
21 Q. In addition to the questions that the Defence gave you and asked
22 you to answer to them through your opinion and findings, tell me whether
23 the Defence gave you any materials that would be of importance and assist
24 you in producing your report?
25 A. Yes. Once I began preparing the report on the topics which I read
1 previously, the Defence made available to me certain documents, on the
2 basis of which it was possible to make the assessment about the
3 functioning of the system and the procedures in the Republic of Macedonia
4 in practice. However, also parts of statements of some of the witnesses
5 here as part of this process.
6 Q. Professor Taseva, when did you complete your findings and when did
7 you submit those to the Defence?
8 A. Since I would say this is quite voluminous work, I submitted it
9 somewhat late. At the beginning of this year. Later, once I handed over
10 the report I was asked to amend it with certain facts and data which is
11 introduced in the footnotes; that is to say, the material used and the
12 previous statements of witnesses.
13 Q. So if I understood what you said well, you submitted one report to
14 the Defence towards the beginning or middle of January, but later, you
15 also produced the amended report which contained the footnotes. Tell me,
16 Professor, what are the contents of those footnotes? Which documents or
17 which grounds that you indicated and what was the purpose that they were
19 A. The footnotes list the regulations, the law and the constitution
20 in Macedonia which I used in preparing my expert opinion. Other by-laws
21 which I also used in preparing this expert opinion, as well as references
22 of certain documents which were made available to me by the Defence.
23 Q. After you submitted the amended report to the Defence, did you
24 then indicate to the Defence that there was any other problem with regards
25 to your report?
1 A. Yes. This was a technical mistake, I would say, in the report,
2 because regarding the competencies of the Ministry of the Interior, twice
3 the same contact was copied unnecessary and superfluous. I pointed out
4 that this was a mistake and I asked that this be stricken out from the
5 report or that a note be made that this is a mistake and other technical
6 mistakes and errors. Two or three related to the English language.
7 Q. When you are mentioning the English language, tell me,
8 Professor Taseva, do you speak any foreign languages?
9 A. Yes. In addition to the others, I speak and I write the -- in
10 the English language.
11 Q. Which was the language in which you composed your report?
12 A. I composed the report directly in the English language because I
13 wanted to avoid translation problems of some very specific terminology.
14 Q. With regards to everything you stated, could you confirm before
15 this Court that this report that we have after your CV and bears the
16 number 65 ter 1D1279 is indeed the report that you produced and which
17 reflects your opinion of the issues asked of you?
18 A. Yes. This document is the report that I prepared, and it contains
19 my viewpoints and opinions about the issues that were asked of me.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this moment I
22 seek to tender the expert report of Professor Slagjana Taseva, Ph.D., into
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D310, Your Honours.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Professor Taseva, I would ask you several questions with regards
3 to your relation with the Defence team, the Defence of Mr. Boskoski.
4 Tell me, first of all, are you acquainted with Mr. Boskoski and
5 have you met him?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You're not acquainted with him?
8 A. We do not know each other personally and we have not met each
9 other before.
10 Q. Thank you. Apart your relation to the Defence team of
11 Mr. Boskoski, in relation to your provision of expert opinion as a
12 consultant with regards to the second expert opinion and also in relation
13 to the request that you produce your expert report dealing with the issues
14 of interest for the Defence, tell me whether you or any member of your
15 family has any relation with the Defence team of Mr. Boskoski?
16 A. Yes. My daughter, Viktorija Taseva, works as a legal assistant in
17 the Defence team of Mr. Boskoski.
18 Q. Did your selection as the expert for this case have any influence
19 with the issue of selection of your daughter Viktorija as a part of the
20 Defence team of Mr. Boskoski?
21 A. No, there was no influence. This was a matter of circumstance, I
22 would say. Because I had been in contact with the Defence since 2006 when
23 Viktorija was still a student in Great Britain and later when she returned
24 from her studies in September 2006, we learned that the Defence was
25 looking for a legal assistant, and further contacts were established
1 independently of me. She established direct contact with members of the
2 Defence team.
3 Q. Does this fact, your daughter Viktorija being part of the team of
4 Defence of Mr. Boskoski, could it have or has it had any influence over
5 your decision to accept this task or did it have any impact on your
6 objectivity employed when you were establishing your facts and expressing
7 your own opinion?
8 A. No. This had no influence over my decision to accept the
9 cooperation with the Boskoski team for further preparation of a new
10 report, nor could that have or influenced my position presented in this
11 report in any way.
12 Q. Thank you very much, Professor Taseva. And now I will move to
13 some questions that are related to your report.
14 I will kindly ask you to look now at page 6 of your report. That
15 is 1D310. Page is 1D0228.
16 Do you see it now? Do you see that page, Professor Taseva?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In the report on page 6 in paragraph 14 you indicated that,
19 pursuant to the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia, the president
20 of the republic is the commander in chief of the Armed Forces.
21 I'm interested to hear, Professor, with regards to this
22 constitutional position of the president, to whom is the president
23 authorised to issue orders?
24 A. In regards to the constitutional position of the president of the
25 Republic as the supreme commander of the armed forces, the president has
1 the competence to issue orders to the army and to the police.
2 Q. This president's function, is it further stipulated in any other
4 A. Yes. This role of the president is further stipulated and
5 elaborated in the Law of Defence.
6 Q. Concerning item 14, we have the footnote number 15 relating to
7 that item. In order to clarify how you came about your conclusions,
8 please tell us what this footnote actually represents.
9 A. As one can read, this footnote represents and states that the
10 sentence to which footnote -- this footnote refers specifies that this
11 assertion is claimed on the Article 79 of the Constitution of the Republic
12 of Macedonia, where it is expressly stated that the president is the
13 supreme commander of the armed forces. And also the footnote lists
14 transcripts, number of transcripts, which were made available to me by the
15 Defence which also confirm my position by presenting how this actually
16 functions in practice, because this is a transcript of statements of
17 persons who are professionals.
18 Q. Professor Taseva, since you mentioned the Law on Defence, tell me
19 whether the Law on Defence can limit or abolish this constitutional right
20 on the part of the president of the Republic?
21 A. Of course that it cannot. The laws implement the basic
22 constitutional provisions and principles. Therefore, the constitution is
23 higher legal act than the law and the law cannot change the meaning of the
25 Q. In your report you also state that during the time you studied -
1 that is 2001 - that there were some changes to the Law on Defence. Can
2 you tell us anything about that?
3 A. Yes. In the analysis of the documents which I made in preparing
4 this report, it became evident that in the middle of 2001, that is to say,
5 on the 1st July, 2001, a new Law on Defence was enacted, a law which, in
6 accordance with the rules in the Republic of Macedonia, came in -- or
7 comes into force eight days after its publishing in the Official Gazette
8 of the Republic of Macedonia. That is to say, on the 8th of July that
9 same year.
10 Q. Why is it important that you mentioned the existence of both the
11 old and the new law? Was there a need of sorts for you to clarify that,
12 and for what reason?
13 A. I felt that it should be clarified, the fact that in the meantime
14 a new Law on the Defence was passed because the provisions which are
15 incorporated in the new Law on Defence introduced changes in the
16 competencies of the president related to the implementation of his
17 function as supreme commander in terms of the use of the police forces.
18 Q. Pursuant to the analysis you carried out of the documents you had
19 at your disposal, this new provision of the new law, was it actually put
20 in place, was it implemented, and if the answer is negative, can you
21 explain what the legal impact of it was?
22 A. In the last provisions of the new law, which, in our legal system,
23 have the name of transitional and final provisions but also in some other
24 provisions of this law, it is listed that a large number of by-laws have
25 to be passed which will facilitate the operationalisation and
1 implementation of the law in practice. For some of these by-laws the
2 legislature provides a term of one year while for other there is a
3 two-year deadline for passing these by-laws. However, the transitional
4 and final provisions clearly state that up until the day of the passing of
5 the new by-laws, the existing ones are implemented, adopted on the basis
6 of the previous Law on Defence, unless these are contrary to the law.
7 In this case, since this is not the case, since they're not
8 contrary to the law, the by-laws which were adopted on the basis of the
9 previous Law on Defence remained in force for a longer period of time in
10 2001 and 2002.
11 Q. Madam Taseva, in keeping with those transitional and final
12 regulations during 2001, was the position of the president of the republic
13 in relation of use of police forces changed or did it remain the same as
14 it was in the old law?
15 A. At that time, in the course of 2001, the position of the president
16 of the state remained as established by the old law.
17 Q. Having in mind the new provision contained in the provisional and
18 final regulation, did you base your opinion and your finding on some other
19 documents you used when preparing the report?
20 A. Yes. In preparing the report, I had -- I had insight of some
21 documents which were prepared at that time of changing of the law - that
22 is to say, in June 2001 - where one could clearly see that even after the
23 passing of the new law, the president of the state continued to practice
24 his authority deriving from the previous law.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON: Just a point of clarification, Your Honour, the
3 witness has testified that while preparing her report in the English
4 translation said: "I had insight of some documents which were prepared at
5 the time of the changing of the law - that is to say, in June 2001."
6 And if -- perhaps counsel could just clarify: Are these documents
7 contained in the footnotes of the report and are they in the possession of
8 the Prosecution?
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We will try to clarify this
11 Q. Professor Taseva, concerning the issue you have just addressed,
12 you noted your opinion in item 18, which is page 7 of your report, which
13 is 1D0229, in that item, you refer to four footnotes.
14 You heard my learned friend's request for clarification. Tell us
15 whether those four footnotes contain the documents you studied and served
16 as the basis of your opinion that you just stated before this Chamber as
17 well as using them in writing your report?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Therefore, those were the documents and sources you had in mind.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this
21 clarifies the situation sufficiently. I believe the Prosecutor is in
22 possession of all these exhibits and documents.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Does that meet your concern, Mr. Saxon?
24 MR. SAXON: Yes, and I'm grateful, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Professor Taseva, do you know whether the by-laws you mention in
3 your findings, which can be also found in the transitional final
4 provisions of the new law, were in force in 2000 and 2001?
5 A. No. The by-laws which we're talking about were not passed in 2001
6 and 2002.
7 Q. Thank you. Professor Taseva, we come to page 7. I want to direct
8 your attention to paragraph 17 of your report, whereby you mention joint
9 operations of the army and police forces. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes. We have here the matter of joint operations, yes.
11 Q. Professor, under whose competence was it to order joint operations
12 of the army and the police?
13 A. Joint operations of the army and the police can be ordered by the
14 supreme commander of the armed forces, and this is the president of the
15 Republic of Macedonia.
16 Q. Regarding such operations, what could the president decide on, in
17 such circumstances? And what was your conclusion, based on the overall
18 material you had studied, which was used as the basis of your conclusion?
19 A. On the basis of the constitution, on the basis of the Law on
20 Defence, on the basis of the materials which I had available, I could
21 conclude that the president could have and used these legal and
22 constitutional authorisations to determine the situation in which the
23 joint forces of the army and the police should act, the scope, the volume
24 and the manner in which they will act, and also to establish who will lead
25 with that situation or with that specific action.
1 Q. Professor Taseva, in such situations, what is the position of the
2 police forces participating in joint operations? Under whose command are
4 A. Regularly in situations such as these, the joint operations are
5 commanded by members of the army, that is to say, the armed forces, while
6 the police is always in the role which is subordinate to that of the army.
7 In situations such as these, the role of command is in the hands of the
9 Q. The Law on Defence that you mentioned, the both of them, we have
10 the principles of controlling the army fully stipulated. We had the
11 notions of the single chain of command, the unity of command and so on and
12 so forth.
13 Professor Taseva, do you know whether any other state body bases
14 its activities on such principles, the principles of command I mentioned,
15 including subordination as exercised by the army of the Republic of
17 A. No, no other body in the Republic of Macedonia does not act nor is
18 it structured in the way in which the army of the Republic of Macedonia
19 is. No other body in the Republic of Macedonia does not act and is not
20 positioned in the single chain and unity of command principle.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In line 18, the word -- the "army"
22 of the Republic of Macedonia was interpreted as the "armed forces" of the
23 Republic of Macedonia. Therefore, I'd kindly ask that that be corrected.
24 Q. Although your previous answer is the answer to my next question,
25 since you said that no other state body functions and is organised in that
1 way, I'm particularly interested to know whether the Ministry of the
2 Interior functions along the same principles of organisation as the army
4 A. No. The Ministry of Interior does not function along the same
5 principles. They do not have the principle of singleness of command and
6 unity of command. This principle does not exist in the Ministry of
7 Interior. This is a principle of the army but not of the interior.
8 Q. What is the basic way in which members of the Ministry of the
9 Interior perform their tasks?
10 A. Unlike the army, which functions on the principle of command and
11 on the principle of orders, the Ministry of Interior is a body which
12 functions on the principle of laws and implementation of legal
13 competencies of the Ministry of Interior by each individual employed in
14 the Ministry of Interior, in accordance with the competencies of that one
15 individual, on the workplace where he is employed.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Professor Taseva, in item 7 of page 7, in
17 item 29 of page 10, and in items 76 and 77 of page 19 of your report, you
18 briefly and in general terms provide your opinion regarding the
19 administration of security and counter-intelligence.
20 First of all, please have a look at item 7 at page 7. It is
21 1D0029 -- I apologise. Item 7 is page 5, actually; I apologise.
22 You mention the administration for security and
23 counter-intelligence as being under the supervision of the parliament. Is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes. In item 7 on page 5, it is listed that in charge of
1 supervising the performance and work of the counter-intelligence section
2 is the parliamentary commission which is to say the parliament, the
3 assembly of the Republic of Macedonia.
4 Q. At page 10, item 29 of 1D0232, you, again, mention the
5 administration for security and counter-intelligence as one of two
6 independent bodies within the Ministry of the Interior.
7 A. Yes, this is correct. The administration for security and
8 counter-intelligence and the administration for public security are the
9 two autonomous bodies within the Ministry of the Interior.
10 Q. At page 19, paragraphs 76 and 77 of 1D0241, again, you provide
11 your opinion -- or, rather, your conclusion as to what the administration
12 for security and counter-intelligence is.
13 A. This is correct, yes.
14 Q. Professor Taseva, concerning this body which is a part of the
15 ministry, tell us a few other things, please. First of all, tell us what
16 the competences of the administration for security and
17 counter-intelligence are?
18 A. The competencies of the UBK, the administration for security and
19 counter-intelligence, are noted in the Law on Internal Affairs.
20 Specifically, the competencies of this administration within the ministry
21 are: Counter-intelligence activities; activities for uncovering and
22 preventing of threats against the institutions as determined in the
23 constitution of the Republic; activities also of suppression of forms of
24 crime which have elements from abroad.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us show Exhibit P86 to the
1 witness, please. It is the Law on Internal Affairs, Article 13 of the law
2 at page N000-8984 in the Macedonian; and N000-8965 in the English version.
3 Q. Concerning your previous answer, you said that the competencies of
4 the administration for security and counter-intelligence are stipulated by
5 the Law on Internal Affairs. Do you base your opinion on the provisions
6 referred to here; namely, Article 13 of the Law on Internal Affairs?
7 A. Yes, my opinion is based on Article 13 of the Law on Internal
9 Q. In item 2 of the Article it says: "Protection against espionage,
10 terrorism or other activities directed towards tearing down the democratic
11 institutions as established in the Constitution of the Republic of
12 Macedonia with forceful means, as well as protection from serious forms of
14 A while back you said that these were serious criminal acts which
15 were related with elements from abroad. Can you please tell us whether
16 these serious forms to which this provision refers to, are they regulated
17 with the criminal procedure and law in Macedonia, and, if so, can you tell
18 us how and under what title are these matters dealt with, the criminal
19 legislation in Macedonia?
20 A. The protection from more serious forms of crime which contain
21 within elements of trans-national crime, international elements is one of
22 the competency of the administration for security and
23 counter-intelligence. And this type of crime belongs to the type of
24 organised crime, as well as money laundering and crimes aimed at tearing
25 down the democratic institutions determined in the constitution in the
1 Republic of Macedonia and terrorism. They can be found in many chapters
2 and many provisions in the criminal law of the Republic of Macedonia.
3 They're not concentrated in one chapter or one provision of the law.
4 Q. In the penal code of the Republic of Macedonia, are such crimes
5 envisaged which go against the protection of state order and are the
6 authorities and competencies of the administration stipulated therein?
7 A. Yes. There are such criminal offences or incriminations -
8 espionage, the incrimination terrorism - which are criminal activities for
9 the detection and suppression of which the directorate for security and
10 counter-intelligence is involved.
11 Q. Does the administration for security and counter-intelligence, as
12 a body of the ministry, have -- has at its disposal specific rules and
13 methods that it can use in order to exercise the competencies and
14 authorities it has been entrusted with?
15 A. Yes. The directorate for security and counter-intelligence has at
16 its disposal specific methods and means which it uses to exercise its
17 competences. A part of those methods and means are the special
18 investigation methods such as surveillance, but there are also other means
19 and methods that are used and that are the exclusive, specific means used
20 by the directorate and there are some combined measures involving
21 undercover agents, also penetration into the crime scene that is
22 investigated, et cetera.
23 Q. How are such means used? Or, rather, to what extent the -- are
24 they linked to any activities of the UVK --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, UBK. Could the
1 counsel please repeat the end of her question.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. The administration for security and counter-intelligence, can it
4 use those specific methods for any other activities of the Ministry of the
6 A. The specific means and methods used by the directorate for
7 security and counter-intelligence could not be used within the other part
8 of the remit of the Ministry of the Interior. So they are separate and
9 they are intended to be used exclusively within the activities and work
10 within the competencies of the directorate for security and
11 counter-intelligence, and those are not the measures that could be used in
12 order to detect other types of criminal activities, those that are
13 processed by other parts of the Ministry of Interior.
14 Q. Professor Taseva, you will probably agree that one of such
15 specific methods could also be tapping, wire-tapping of telephone
16 conversations of the enemy or other persons which may perform certain acts
17 directed at undermining the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia.
18 Is this area regulated, and could one use such methods when it
19 comes to one's own citizens or members of its own forces?
20 A. In principle, when these means are used by the directorate or the
21 bureau for security and counter-intelligence, they are directed towards, I
22 would call them foreign elements that are active on the territory of
23 Republic of Macedonia and their application for another purpose would be
24 illegal, I would say, since they could be used only in specific cases when
25 specific prerequisites are met.
1 In order to use a measure of this kind by the directorate for
2 security and counter-intelligence, it is necessary to have and to respect
3 certain procedure within which the need of use of such measure needs to be
4 well elaborated.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, is there any relevance of this issue
6 in this case?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm referring to a
8 number of questions posed by Mr. Saxon of certain Defence witnesses.
9 Therefore, I wanted to clarify with this witness, if possible. I don't
10 have the exact transcript pages. In any case, the questions had to do
11 with the use of the administration for security or rather the possibility
12 to use that administration in order to investigate some other events or
13 occurrences which fall outside the remit of the administration.
14 That is the only reason why I asked the professor to clarify for
15 us whether that is possible and under what circumstances.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I see I have prompted Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Not exactly, Your Honour. I was tempted to rise to my
18 feet before your intervention.
19 My concern is actually something a bit different from the
20 Chamber's concern. It's simply that I don't believe the information given
21 in the last response or two by the witness is provided within the text of
22 her expert report. And so if -- if the Defence is going to rely on this
23 testimony, the Prosecution would at least like to know specifically what
24 laws or other sources the witness relies upon in drawing these conclusions
25 so that we can try to study them ourselves.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to mention the page I
2 referred to in my previous question. It is page 9020, line 25, witness
3 Igno Stojkov. However, I can move on concerning the report drafted by
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon made the point that it is unclear whether
6 you're seeking to rely on some aspect of this evidence.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Concerning witness Vesna Dorevska,
8 what was admitted was the rules on the work of the state security
9 directorate. Therefore, it is one of the exhibits in this case.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
11 MR. SAXON: Well, I just think it might be more helpful for the
12 witness to tell us what she relies upon rather than the Defence counsel
13 speaking for her.
14 JUDGE PARKER: For what proposition, Mr. Saxon?
15 MR. SAXON: Well, if this is an expert witness giving expert
16 evidence, the Prosecution would just like to hear from the witness what is
17 the basis by which she came to this expert conclusion.
18 JUDGE PARKER: I'm still searching for what it is that is relevant
19 in this case in this line of questioning. And if that's identified, then
20 there might be content to your concern.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My questions, Your Honour, and
22 their relevance, had to do with the questions posed to Mr. Stojkov by the
23 Prosecutor. He was asked: Did you ever ask for assistance of the UBK of
24 the Ministry of the Interior in identifying a useful piece of information
25 which would have to do with the events in Ljuboten. It is page 9021, or,
1 rather, the last line on 9020 and the first two lines of 9021 of the
3 JUDGE PARKER: Right. And then what is the relevance of the
4 evidence that has just been given to that question?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If Professor can answer, the
6 relevance would be whether the directorate for state security, according
7 to her knowledge, is, first of all, authorised; and secondly, does it have
8 means at its disposal in order to address the issues which have to do some
9 other crime-related procedures which the crime police of the Ministry of
10 Interior is originally tasked with.
11 JUDGE PARKER: The answer given by Mr. Stojkov to the question was
12 no; am I right?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojkov said that the working
14 group he was a part of did not raise such issues. As to whether the
15 directorate for state security can be used in that regard is something
16 that remains open.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Can you see my concern? He was asked.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE PARKER: He said no, and the matter was left there. Now
20 there is no issue whether -- if he'd asked whether the bureau was in a
21 position to assist him or not; that's just not a concern in the case.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I will
23 move on to a different topic.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Concerning the state security directorate, and that is something
2 you mentioned in your report, you said that it is under supervision of the
3 parliament. How does that supervision operate when it comes to this part
4 of the Ministry of Interior?
5 A. The supervision over this part of the Ministry of the Interior is
6 carried out by the assembly, by the parliament of the Republic of
7 Macedonia, through a standing parliamentary committee that has the
8 competence to control the work of the directorate for security and
10 Q. Can you tell me what is the parliamentary commission comprised of,
11 of who in particular?
12 A. This parliamentary committee comprised representatives of all
13 parliamentary groups in the parliament of the Republic of Macedonia, and,
14 as a rule, this committee is chaired by an MP from the largest opposition
16 Q. Concerning that and given there are different political parties in
17 the parliament, can you tell me whether there is an ethnic key in terms of
18 the composition of that commission and the composition of the parliament?
19 A. Of course, because I said members of all parliamentary groups are
20 represented and they could come from various ethnicities.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Just before that leave that and to assist me,
23 Ms. Residovic, perhaps the professor could tell me, then, what is the
24 relationship between this parliamentary committee and Article 14 of the
25 Law on Internal Affairs which you have open in front of you, I think,
1 still on the screen, which says that the director reports his work to the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is actually part of the
4 horizontal mutual control between various pillars of government of power
5 in the Republic of Macedonia. The parliament, as the legislative branch
6 of power exercises the control over the government as the executive branch
7 of power and that can be seen very well from the operation of the standing
8 committee, standing parliamentary committee, that controls the work of the
9 state security and counter-intelligence.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I understand clearly now, I think, what
11 you're saying. You were not suggesting that only the parliamentary
12 committee has any control over the work of the directorate; the director
13 is also obliged to report to the minister within the ministry.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The director is answerable to
15 the minister, and of course he also reports to the government of the
16 Republic of Macedonia, which is the organ appointing the director of the
17 directorate for security and counter-intelligence, while the parliamentary
18 committee exercises control over the directorate -- of the work of the
19 directorate for security and counter-intelligence as an independent body.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And I'm sorry for interfering.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,
22 Your Honour, in clarifying this.
23 Could I ask that we go back to the previous issue as I believe it
24 may be of some importance. I will have another question of Professor.
25 This issue has to do with the use of the directorate for security and
1 counter-intelligence in investigating a crime. That question was also
2 asked of witness Sofija Galeva at page 8798, in line 8. The question
3 was -- [No interpretation].
4 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel should continue.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I received no
7 If members of the UBK sector for counter-intelligence and security
8 are supposed to identify policemen who participated in the operation, the
9 members of the UBK could come by information, could they not?
10 And we received an open-ended answer of the witness, because she
11 said that it would be but one of the ways.
12 Would this be sufficient basis for me to ask two additional
13 questions to the witness, in relation to some previous questions?
14 JUDGE PARKER: I don't see, but I'm prepared to allow you because
15 you see, and you know what you want. I don't. So go ahead,
16 Ms. Residovic.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Madam Professor, let us go back to some of my previous questions
19 when you talked about the specific methods and means at the disposal of
20 the directorate for security and counter-intelligence.
21 In your experience and knowledge, is the directorate for
22 counter-intelligence and security capable to conduct crime operations?
23 That is, activities usually undertaken by --
24 MR. SAXON: Please continue.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Complete your question, please, Ms. Residovic.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. According to what you know, and according to your experience, is
3 the administration of the directorate for security and
4 counter-intelligence capable of undertaking on-site investigations and
5 pre-trial procedures which usually fall within the remit of the criminal
7 A. No. The directorate for security and counter-intelligence does
8 not have at its disposal the means necessary to carry out
9 pre-investigation activities that fall within the remit of crime police,
10 so it could not perform these activities, no.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, did you now have a point?
12 MR. SAXON: I thought I did, Your Honour, but I thought better of
13 it. So, no, thank you.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Madam Taseva, let us move on to another topic you provided your
16 conclusions an opinion on in the report that was forwarded to the Defence
17 and to the Chamber.
18 I have a few general questions and I'm seeking to find out some
19 general answers from you about the issue of disciplinary procedure.
20 First of all, can you tell us this: According to your knowledge
21 of the laws and regulations of the Republic of Macedonia, who can a
22 disciplinary procedure be instituted against within the Ministry of the
24 A. Within the Ministry of the Interior, as well as within other
25 organs in the state, the disciplinary procedure can be instigated against
1 the employees of the Ministry of the Interior.
2 Q. Professor Taseva, are internal affairs tasks performed only by the
3 employees of the Ministry of Interior or are there other persons which, at
4 times, can perform such tasks?
5 A. In -- it is usual that the activities of internal affairs are
6 carried out by the employees of the Ministry of the Interior. However,
7 there are situations that are provided for in the Law on Internal Affairs
8 when other individuals could be retained to -- or deployed to perform such
9 activities and there are also situations when reserve forces could be
10 called up and even students from the police academy who could be involved
11 in the performance of specific tasks under specific circumstances that are
12 stipulated in the law.
13 Q. Professor Taseva, are elected officials employees of the Ministry
14 of the Interior; namely, the minister and his deputy?
15 A. The minister and the deputy minister are not employees with the
16 Ministry of Interior. They are employed with the government of the
17 Republic of Macedonia and they do not fall under the disciplinary
18 responsibility concept within the Ministry of Interior, since the
19 principle of political responsibility applies to them and they are
20 accountable and responsible before the government and the parliament of
21 the Republic of Macedonia for the performance of their competencies within
22 the laws.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I note the time, Your Honours.
25 Perhaps this would be a good time for the break.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.
2 We will have the first break now and resume in half an hour, at a
3 quarter past 4.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before continuing with the
8 questions, I kindly ask the usher to distribute the second document
9 binder. As you can see, this one contains the footnotes that the
10 professor provided and also indicates the references she used.
11 Q. Madam Professor, in paragraphs 42 to 44 on page 12 of your report,
12 you spoke about the employees of the Ministry of the Interior. That would
13 be the issue that we started discussing before the break. Is that
15 A. Yes, this is correct.
16 Q. And also in this part you included your references in the
17 footnotes, the references on the basis of which, in addition to your
18 academic and professional knowledge and experience, you drew your
19 conclusions in this report. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, this is correct. In this part of the report, specifically in
21 addition to the Law on Internal Affairs, I used the labour law, the
22 collective agreement of the Ministry of Interior.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 I kindly ask that the witness be shown the Exhibit P86. That is
25 the Law on Internal Affairs, Article 48. The Macedonian page is
1 N000-8991; and the English page is N000-8973.
2 Madam Professor, tell me whether this was the provision of the Law
3 on Internal Affairs that you had in mind when making your conclusions?
4 A. Yes. This is Article 48, which pertains to labour relations and
5 establishing employment in the Ministry of Interior.
6 Q. Tell me whether there were any modifications with regards to these
7 general terms under which an employment would commence, in the period
9 A. In regards to this Article there was an amendment which was based
10 on the decision of the constitutional court of the Republic of Macedonia,
11 this being that paragraph 1 and 2 of this Article should be stricken.
12 Q. You also stated that the Law on Labour and Employment was also a
13 ground for your conclusion.
14 A. Yes, the labour law, the general law which applies for all other
15 employees also in the Republic of Macedonia.
16 Q. I would kindly ask that the witness now be shown Exhibit P553,
17 Article 14, which is in page N000-2 -- N002-5380. That is the page in
18 Macedonian language. And the English is N006-3827; that would be the
19 fifth page out of the 40.
20 As you stated already, Professor Taseva, that is the general law
21 that applies to any and every employee, so also including the employees
22 with the Ministry of the Interior, and this Article states that the
23 employment commences when an employment contract is signed between the
24 employee and the employer.
25 Tell me, was this the provision that you had in mind when drawing
1 your conclusion and when you were answering my question a moment ago, that
2 the employment commences when a contract, employment contract, is signed?
3 A. Yes. In preparing my expert opinion, I had in mind this provision
4 of the labour law that establishes that employment is concluded based on a
5 contract agreement between the employer and the employee.
6 Q. And in relation to this, would it be possible for someone to
7 commence their employment without signing the employment contract?
8 A. Employment is concluded exclusively and is based exclusively with
9 the signing of the contract between the employee and the employer. It is
10 not possible to have such employment without a contract between the
11 employer and the employee.
12 Q. Tell me, Article 15 of this law that we are now reviewing, reads:
13 "The employee cannot commence employment prior to the signing and the
14 verification of the employment contract."
15 Are you aware, Professor Taseva, whether this legal basis was
16 consistently followed also in the acts of the Ministry of the Interior?
17 A. This legal provision pertains to all persons who enter into
18 employment in the Republic of Macedonia. The Ministry of the Interior is
19 not an exception to this provision. This provision therefore pertains
20 also to the Ministry of Interior.
21 Q. If there are any special conditions required to commence the
22 employment, would it be necessary for the employee to meet these specific
23 requirements as well in order for them to become an employee of the
24 Ministry of the Interior?
25 A. In view of the specific character of the competencies of the
1 Ministry of Interior, persons who enter into employment in the Ministry of
2 Interior should fulfil also some other conditions. Parts of these
3 conditions are, for example, to go through certain training, to prepare
4 for carrying out their duties and tasks once they enter into regular
5 employment. That is to say, once they conclude a contract.
6 Q. Professor Taseva, once the employee has signed the employment
7 contract and thus became the employee of the Ministry of Interior and then
8 failed to meet those conditions that are stipulated in the law or in the
9 collective agreement, what then happens with that employee? Is he still
10 an employee or would something else happen, as provided in the rules?
11 A. If the person with the work contract, with the work employment
12 contract does not fulfil some of the specific conditions, such as, for
13 example, the necessary training which this person must undergo in a given
14 period of time and the passing of exams or tests, if the employee does not
15 pass the foreseen -- the exams or tests foreseen for this specific
16 contract, then the contract is severed. He can no longer remain in
17 employment of the Ministry of Interior.
18 Q. Thank you. Once the employment contract is signed with the
19 Ministry of the Interior, are there any consequences derived from that
20 contract, consequences to the employee, actually, are there certain rights
21 and obligations that begin entering into force?
22 A. Of course after the employment contract is signed, the employee
23 gains all rights of employment, but also he is obliged to perform all
24 obligations that stem from this employment contract.
25 Q. And if the employee does not carry out his duties properly, tell
1 me, Professor Taseva, is there any way establish the responsibility of
2 that officer?
3 A. The manner or calling someone to responsibility of the employees
4 who overstep their obligations or fail to fulfil their obligation is the
5 disciplinary proceeding. Therefore this proceeding is one of the ways in
6 which a person can be called to responsibility for failure to fulfill
7 their obligations which are part of their employment.
8 In the case of the Ministry of Interior, there is also a
9 collective agreement which is concluded between the employer and
10 representatives of the employees, and this collective agreement strictly
11 regulates the conditions and cases under which a disciplinary proceeding
12 can be led under an employee of the Ministry of Interior.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Professor Taseva, answering one of my
14 questions in terms of who can perform the tasks in the area of internal
15 affairs, you mentioned the reservists as well. And then you only
16 indicated such possibility, while in your report, on page 13, in
17 paragraphs -- from 45 to 50, you provided your opinion and presented also
18 certain conclusions with regards to the position of the reservists within
19 the Ministry of the Interior.
20 Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, this is correct. And this is in accordance with the Law on
22 Internal Affairs.
23 Q. Could you, Professor Taseva, tell us what are the duties that the
24 minister of the interior has in relation to the reserve forces of the
1 A. In accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs, the minister of
2 the interior can, under certain conditions prescribed by law, reach a
3 decision to include other persons other than those employed in the
4 ministry with the aim of securing certain security conditions. Under such
5 conditions, the minister has the competence to order a call-up of the
6 reserve forces of the police forces and to include these forces in the
7 work tasks, together with the regular force of the Ministry of Interior.
8 Q. Is there any regulation or legal act on the basis of which the
9 call-up of the reserve forces is carried out; and if there is such act,
10 who is then bringing it?
11 A. The act for call-up of the reserve forces in the Ministry of
12 Interior is passed by the minister of the interior on the basis of the Law
13 of Internal Affairs, and this falls under the competencies of the
14 minister. That is to say, one of his competencies of passing by-laws
15 which are under his competence.
16 Q. And once the reservists are called up and they respond to the
17 request to perform their duties for the Ministry of the Interior, do they,
18 by this token, become employees of the Ministry of the Interior?
19 A. Members of the reserve forces, in this case we're talking about
20 the reserve force of the Ministry of Interior, but we can also speak about
21 the other parts of the reserve forces, because they are also there in the
22 army, they're not employees in -- of the Ministry of Interior. These are
23 people who are employed elsewhere. They have regular employment at a
24 different place, whether it be in an institution or in the private sector.
25 What is important is that they have deployment as reserve forces of the
1 armed forces of the Republic of Macedonia and that, according to this
2 deployment, they are assigned as part of the reserve forces of the
3 Ministry of Interior.
4 As such, therefore, they're called up to carry out some of the
5 competencies and functions of the Ministry of Interior, but they're not
6 employees of the ministry. The minister passes a particular act in
7 regards to them, which regulates the remuneration for the period when they
8 were engaged to carry out these tasks. However, they do not become
9 employees; they're not persons employed in the ministry.
10 Q. Thank you. You told us just now that the minister passes a
11 special act, a decision or another act by which the remuneration of the
12 reservists for their activities is established.
13 Just tell me, could they be subject to a disciplinary procedure
14 within the Ministry of the Interior?
15 A. No. They cannot be subject to disciplinary proceeding, in view of
16 the fact that they did not have the status of employees of the ministry.
17 We already mentioned that only employees can be subject to disciplinary
19 Q. When a person is called up to the reserve force, what are the
20 duties where that individual is deployed? Could you tell us that?
21 A. When a person is called to the reserve force of the Ministry of
22 Interior, he can be assigned to several and almost all, I would say, tasks
23 carried out by the ministry, be it in uniform, in the police, or be it in
24 another workplace, in everything which is foreseen in the plans for
25 deployment of the reserve forces regarding the needs and the intent of
1 their call-up.
2 Q. And could you tell us, on the basis of the regulation that
3 you’re aware of and also on the basis of your experience, those
4 reservists that are deployed to certain posts, to whom are they
6 A. I previously said that they are deployed to carry out part of the
7 competencies of the Ministry of Interior together with the regular
8 employees of the ministry. They are therefore directly answerable for
9 their work to the superior to which they are assigned to carry out their
10 tasks. This can be anyone, any superior, at any rank or level in the
11 ministry, where these persons, as members of the reserve forces, are
13 Q. And tell us, if this member of the reserve forces would perpetrate
14 a criminal offence, what would be the way, then, for them to be taken to
16 A. As all citizens in the Republic of Macedonia who would perpetrate
17 a criminal offence, a procedure would be led for establishing the
18 existence of a criminal offence, much as is in the case of all other
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 On page 14 of your report, in item 51, you spoke of the
22 contractual relations between certain individuals and the minister. Tell
23 me, what would this be?
24 A. Paragraph 51 in fact served me to explain a situation which can
25 happen in the Ministry of Interior or in other places that there are other
1 relationships related to work tasks, be it by a contract for deed or other
2 type of contracts for carrying out engagements. In this case, these are
3 persons who the Ministry of Interior and other institutions could engage
4 for a concrete task, which is related to the daily work of the Ministry of
6 For example, a practice as of a few years ago is that the premises
7 of the Ministry of Interior are cleaned by private companies with whom the
8 ministry has a contract. Contracts who work on maintenance of the
9 facilities. Further, this can be services for translation. In the case
10 of meetings, we have need for interpretation and for these purposes we
11 conclude agreements, contracts with companies who have and offer these
12 kind of services.
13 Q. Professor Taseva, what would be the nature of such contract? You
14 gave us example of two cases. What would be the legal nature of that
15 contract between the ministry and an individual or an organisation?
16 A. These are typical contractual obligations, an agreement; this is
17 not an employer-employee relationship. This is a civil relationship,
18 contractual relationship.
19 Q. And if such party to the contract fails to perform its obligation,
20 what would be the way to resolve that problem?
21 A. In the case that one of the parties, anyone, failed to meet these
22 obligations, the courts are responsible and they're listed in the
23 contracts as competent in the case of disputes.
24 Q. Thank you. In your report, in paragraphs 52 to 55, you spoke
25 about the concept of authorised official. That is on pages 14 and 15 of
1 your report. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes. This part of the report pertains to the concept of
3 authorised officials in the Ministry of Interior.
4 Q. Tell me, please, with regards to this concept that you spoke of in
5 paragraphs 52, 53, 54, and 55, is there equal status between an employee
6 of the minister and authorised official? Tell me, would this be -- in
7 some way be the identical notion or are there any differences between the
8 two notions?
9 A. One cannot say that this is an identical term, because there are
10 certain differences. Not all authorised officials are employees of the
11 Ministry of Interior, and also not all employees of the Ministry of
12 Interior are authorised officials. There are both categories of persons.
13 Q. And could you tell us, Madam Professor, what would be an example
14 of that, when some employee would be an employee but not an authorised
15 official; and the opposite situation, when an individual could be an
16 authorised official without being an employee with the Ministry of the
18 A. In the Ministry of Interior, there are a number of categories of
19 employees. Some of these categories - and in item 53, I list these
20 categories - that persons who work in the police and operative activities,
21 they're authorised officials. Persons who carry out activities that are
22 in direct connection with the police and operative activities also have
23 the status of authorised officials.
24 However, all others who carry out other tasks and work duties and
25 who are no -- have no connection with the police and operative work, do
1 not have the status of authorised officials. These are civil servants who
2 are employed in the Ministry of Interior.
3 A typical example of a case when someone is not employed in the
4 ministry but can be authorised is the status of the minister of the
5 interior and his deputy for whom, as I previously said, they're not
6 employed at the Ministry of the Interior because they're employed at the
7 government, and the Law on Internal Affairs gives them the authorisations
8 and considers them as authorised officials.
9 Q. When we spoke about the reserve forces in the ministry a moment
10 ago, you stated that they were not employees in the ministry.
11 With regards to this concept of authorised official, tell me, do
12 they have the rights and the authorisations that an authorised official
13 would have?
14 A. Considering the tasks that they need to perform, the members of
15 the reserve forces, during the time when they're active within the units
16 or the services, parts of the Ministry of the Interior, they do have the
17 status of authorised official, but that is -- does not entail employment
18 status. It is only linked to the activity or the task that they're
19 entrusted with at the moment during that period when they are activated as
20 members of the reserve forces.
21 Q. In answering my previous question, you referred to paragraph 53.
22 Therein, you enumerate the categories of persons who enjoy the status of
23 authorised officials.
24 Professor, tell me, what are the reasons for these categories of
25 persons enjoy the status of authorised officials?
1 A. The main reason why the law or the legislature has given a special
2 status to this category of individuals is based on their competencies and
3 the functions they need to perform within the Ministry of the Interior.
4 The work of the police, for the most part, consists -- they are
5 uniformed officers of the Ministry of Interior who are carrying weapons
6 and who are applying special measures in order to perform their working
7 duties. Also, the employees in the operative police or the operative
8 workers, as they are called, operatives as they are called in the Law on
9 Internal Affairs are also employees that -- or individuals that within
10 their everyday duties have the duty to apply special measures, such as
11 would be measures to investigate crimes, surpress crime, et cetera.
12 Q. I have to interrupt you for a moment, Professor Taseva. In
13 paragraph 53, you state that the minister, and you cited the law, that the
14 minister, his deputy and other managing personnel enjoy the status of
15 authorised officials.
16 Does this mean that the minister has the powers and obligation to
17 perform all tasks, or, rather, to use all authority envisaged by the law
18 and other regulation of the ministry pertaining to authorised officials?
19 A. No. That does not mean that at all. Since the minister of the
20 interior is an official office holder, he is an employee of the government
21 and the competencies and that the minister and the deputy are entrusted
22 with are primarily functional competencies. The purpose of which is to
23 enable the minister to perform his role and function as a head and a
24 manager of the Ministry of the Interior, but at the same time, to perform
25 his legal duties pursuant to other legislative items as a member of the
1 government of the Republic of Macedonia.
2 As a minister of the interior, he needs to enact regulation that
3 governs the work of the ministry and that establishes the ways in which
4 the authorised officials will act.
5 Also the Law on Internal Affairs and the Law on Organisation of
6 MOI also provide many competences that the minister of the interior needs
7 to carry out as the office holder who is the head of the ministry. So the
8 competences of the authorities are mainly functional, not operative
10 Q. You mentioned the word "operative function". The minister, given
11 his position within the legal system of the Republic of Macedonia, and, in
12 particular, within the Ministry of the Interior, is he the person who
13 performs the tasks envisaged in Article 1 of the Law on Internal Affairs?
14 A. No. The minister does not perform operative or operational tasks
15 as provided by Article 1 of the Law on Internal Affairs. That is
16 performed by the employees in the Ministry of the Interior.
17 Q. Can the minister ever perform a task of an operative nature, and if
18 such a possibility exists, who can provide such authority to him to carry
19 out certain tasks of an operative nature?
20 A. Certain tasks that one would call tasks of operative nature are
21 provided for the minister in other acts, acts on organisation of the
22 government. In the Law on Internal Affairs, for instance, there is a
23 provision saying that the minister can order undertaking of certain
24 operative measures. But those are only specific cases that are enumerated
25 in the law.
1 Another case might be when the minister would need to follow a
2 decision or a conclusion of the government, which actually contains the
3 provisions where the minister is requested to undertake certain activities
4 in order to meet the operative demands or issues that are derived from the
5 competencies of the minister stipulated in the Law on Internal Affairs.
6 And in some cases, that could also be the president of the Republic.
7 Q. Does the minister have any operative powers when it comes to
8 investigating, detecting and identifying crimes and perpetrators?
9 A. I said already, the minister is the office holder, a politician,
10 who is appointed to head the Ministry of the Interior. He is not an
11 employee with the Ministry of the Interior who would have the obligation
12 and competencies to perform part of these operative functions of the
13 Ministry of the Interior. That would mean that the minister of the
14 interior could not undertake such actions.
15 Q. Explaining this, you also said that in exceptional circumstances
16 the law can authorise the minister to undertake operative measures,
17 partly or in whole.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask that the
19 witness be shown P86, Article 30. It is N000-8986 in the Macedonian; and
20 N000-8969 in the English.
21 Q. I believe you have that provision of Article 30 before you.
22 In the first paragraph what is mentioned is a measure of sealing
23 off a building in order to apprehend perpetrators. In paragraph 2, it is
24 stated that the minister, or person authorised by him, can order
25 undertaking the measures envisaged in paragraph 1 of this Article.
1 When you said a moment ago that in exceptional circumstances the
2 minister can undertake a measure which may be deemed operative in
3 nature, would this be one of such measures that you had in mind, when you
4 came to that conclusion or opinion?
5 A. Yes, precisely. This is a provision which incorporates this type
6 of competences of the Ministry of Interior and it expressly states that,
7 in order to prevent crimes, detect and apprehend perpetrators of crime or
8 to secure facilities, the authorised officials can close the access to a
9 certain open area or to prevent individuals from leaving that area.
10 These measures are performance of official tasks and they can be
11 ordered by a minister or an officer authorised by them. Since it is a
12 specific measure which in some way interferes with the constitutional
13 liberties of freedom of movement of the citizens, the legislature has
14 provided that this specific competence would belong to the minister of the
15 interior as the office holder who is the head of the ministry, or to an
16 officer authorised by the minister. I said this is one of the
17 possibilities that are incorporated in the law.
18 Q. Given your professional experience, Professor Taseva, does the
19 minister make use of this original authority under law, or is it more
20 frequent that the minister delegates that authority to another person as
21 envisaged by the Article?
22 A. As far as I know, also from my personal practice from when I
23 worked in the Ministry of the Interior, is that usually this type of
24 measures are undertaken by individuals who are authorised by the minister
25 of the interior. Or let me be more precise. I'm not aware of a single
1 case where the minister of the interior would order that such type of
2 measures are ordered. Usually those are persons who are authorised by the
3 minister of the interior.
4 Q. When testifying about the fact that the minister can, on occasion,
5 have operative powers, you mentioned the law, a decision by the
6 government, or by the president. Do you still stand by that, and is that
7 corroborated by the situation described in the Article?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In the Law on Internal Affairs and the rule books you mentioned in
10 your footnotes, a number, a great number of powers or authorities are
11 mentioned pertaining to those enjoyed by authorised officials.
12 Can any authorised official perform all of those authorities; and,
13 if not, how is it ascertained that the given person performs the relevant
14 tasks and authorities?
15 A. The competencies or authorisations that belong to the employees in
16 the Ministry of the Interior are basically many measures and means that
17 they can employ in the course of their work, but it does not mean in any
18 way that every employee of the minister who is an authorised official
19 could employ all measures that within this sphere of authorisations.
20 What measures can be used by which of the employees in the course
21 of their work depends on the tasks and duties that this post entails and
22 that is described in the act for systematization for the work and job
23 positions in the Ministry of the Interior. That would mean that every
24 duty or every job posts has specific authorisations and obligations and
25 the holders of those posts, those employees can use those specific
2 Q. Professor Taseva, is it possible, under the law, and does it exist
3 in practice that an authorised official or with a certain scope of
4 authority of authorised official can go and do, perform other tasks which
5 do not fall under that person's authority but such authority is envisaged
6 by the law?
7 A. In order to answer this question, I should best use my own
8 example, I think, because I, as the director of the police academy am an
9 authorised official. I have the authorisation, I have the ID card that
10 every employee of the ministry has, but I cannot apply any of the measures
11 that belong to this group of measures applied by the authorised officials
12 of the Ministry of the Interior. For instance, I can't go to the street
13 and regulate the traffic. I can't ask the persons to identify themselves
14 through an ID. I can't really do any other action. I can't detain a
15 person, because those do not belong to the domain of my working duties.
16 It is precisely stipulated in the laws and the by-laws of the ministry
17 which are the obligations that each post entails and which are the
18 authorisations that can be used by the person performing these
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, line 47:4, instead of
21 laws, acts.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You mentioned your example illustrating this. But, for example,
24 does an outpatient clinic or a physician exist within the Ministry of the
25 Interior, and do people employed there enjoy the status of authorised
2 A. Yes. That would be another good illustration of the notion of
3 authorised official who could not use specific authorisations. Within the
4 police, there is an outpatient institution. The doctor is an authorised
5 official but they could not use all the measures. They could use only
6 those that are specified for his or her specific post.
7 Q. Going back to your own example, you said that you cannot apprehend
8 or detain a person for 24 hours. Concerning that answer of yours, I want
9 to refer to Article 29 of the Law on Internal Affairs. That is P86, which
10 states that the authorised officials of the ministry have the right to
11 detain someone for the maximum of 24 hours. From your answer I gather
12 that you, although you are an authorised official cannot exercise that
13 right. You cannot do that, did I understand that correctly?
14 A. Yes, precisely. I don't have such right and I cannot exercise
15 that right.
16 Q. And nor can your physician?
17 A. No. Our police physician, physician from the police academy can't
18 do that as well. We can use other examples. For instance, if there is a
19 theft within the police academy, apart from the director there are other
20 authorised officials there but in such case, we still address the nearest
21 police station and we request that the measures for detection of a
22 perpetrator of the crime are undertaken by them. We ourselves can't
23 undertake activities in terms of detection of a perpetrator of a crime
24 that has been perpetrated within the premises of the police academy
25 because this falls outside of our competencies.
1 Q. Thank you. Professor, while we are on the topic of detecting and
2 investigating crimes and the competencies of an authorised official, who
3 are actually the persons and relevant bodies within the Ministry of the
4 Interior who have the authority to work on the tasks of determining, first
5 of all, whether an event represents a crime, and then, secondly, on
6 identifying the perpetrators?
7 A. Registering the event, detecting that a crime has been perpetrated
8 or what activities were perpetrated within that crime and also undertaking
9 measures to detect the perpetrators of such crime are activities that are
10 carried out at the level of basic units of the Ministry of the Interior.
11 Those would be the police stations, OVRs and then further up it could be
12 at the level of SVR, depending on the location where certain activity has
13 taken place.
14 I told you a while ago that with regards to an event within the
15 premises of the police academy we would address the nearest police station
16 which covers the area where the police academy has its premises.
17 Q. Thank you. Could we please show P88 to the expert. It is the Law
18 on Criminal Procedure, Article 140 of the law. In the Macedonian it is
19 N001-9056; and in the English version, it is 32 of 182, and page 33 of
20 182. ERN is N001-9208.
21 Professor, in Article 140, paragraph 1 it states that: The state
22 bodies and institutions performing public competencies have the duty to
23 report crimes that are prosecuted ex officio, regarding which they were
24 informed or of which they learned in a different manner.
25 Professor Taseva, can you tell me which state bodies are those
1 foreseen by this regulation?
2 A. Those are all state bodies and all institutions in the state that
3 perform public competences. They're not enumerated. All state bodies,
4 all institutions performing public competences have the duty to report
5 crimes that are prosecuted ex officio.
6 Q. I suppose that you're trying to say that this includes the
7 Ministry of Interior as one of the state bodies.
8 A. Naturally. The Ministry of the Interior as a state body, is one
9 of them. Also is the Ministry of Finance as a state body, the police
10 academy as well, as a state body. All state institutions have the duty to
11 report crimes prosecuted ex officio.
12 Q. Among those organs, are there any parts which execute such tasks,
13 and if so, how is it ascertained who is to bear responsibility when it
14 comes to this part of obligations?
15 A. Within the internal structure of the state organs there are
16 organisational parts that are tasked with this part of competencies. Some
17 of the state bodies, such as, for instance, the ministry of finance, have
18 within them several bodies. Those would be the customs administration,
19 the public revenue office, the financial police, the directorate for
20 prevention of money laundering. All those bodies have legal competencies
21 and duties to detect and report criminal offences, but within the ministry
22 of finance, for instance, there are other services such as various
23 inspectorates. Supervision bodies that also have competences in terms of
24 filing criminal reports. So depending on the type of competence within
25 the bodies, there are parts specialised. Namely identified are the
1 services who are tasked with performing such duties and that is
2 specifically provided for each of the state bodies.
3 Q. If I understood you well, if you want to answer the question, who
4 within the state body or institution is responsible for the execution of
5 this legal obligation, then one needs to go to the various by-laws and
6 other regulation of that body.
7 A. This is so. You understand me well. One needs to look at the
8 internal organisational structure, the act for the organisational of the
9 work of that particular work body. The act of systematization of
10 workplaces will further show the duties and tasks of those involved.
11 Q. Thank you. According to what you said I conclude concerning the
12 position of the Ministry of the Interior within the state administration
13 that the Ministry of the Interior is but one of such organs. Within the
14 Ministry of Interior, which are its organs that are authorised to submit
15 criminal reports once they ascertained that there is a crime that had been
16 committed and that they have to prosecute ex officio?
17 A. As part of the internal organisation and structure of the Ministry
18 of Interior, proceedings regarding the uncovering or reporting or
19 submitting a criminal report is always part of the basic units of the
20 Ministry of the Interior, the so-called police stations, or units of
21 internal affairs, OVRs, because it -- they pertain to the place where this
22 crime has been committed, taking activities to uncover it and submitting
23 the relevant criminal reports to the public prosecutor and the courts. In
24 the case of a complex or more specific case, then more than one, several
25 police units or several OVRs within a sector act together, and depending
1 on the competencies where most of the persons involved in this complex
2 persons are located or the place where this crime has happened, then the
3 criminal report can be sent on the level of OVR or even at the higher
4 joint level of SVR. And depending on the complexity of the case, it can
5 even be done so that a criminal report be submitted by the Ministry of
6 Interior itself which is extremely rare.
7 Q. In answering my question, you raised a number of other issues, and
8 I will ask you for some clarification. Namely, when explaining who can
9 submit a criminal report, first, you mentioned territorial jurisdiction.
10 Professor, when it comes to investigating crimes and prosecuting
11 perpetrators, is territorial jurisdiction of importance, and what is the
12 conduct of all organs which have to do with investigating crimes when it
13 comes to territorial jurisdiction?
14 A. Territorial jurisdiction is important both from the point of view
15 of the procedure for uncovering and detecting the perpetrators plus also
16 later on for leading the criminal procedures within the judicial bodies.
17 So this territorial jurisdiction where this crime has been perpetrated and
18 where the perpetrator was found are very important in terms of how the
19 procedure for establishing the circumstances for detecting the
20 perpetrators and initiating the criminal procedure will be led.
21 Q. If I understand the competences of the police stations and OVRs as
22 well when it comes to investigating crimes and prosecuting perpetrators,
23 it is closely related to the issue of territorial jurisdiction. As you
24 say, such people, such bodies are there in the place where the crime has
25 been committed.
1 What is their role to shed light on any given event and what is
2 their role in catching the perpetrator?
3 A. This is of importance for the overall procedure, for informing the
4 competent judicial bodies, for informing the competent public prosecutor.
5 We always say 'the competent investigating judge' and 'the competent public
6 prosecutor'. This stems from jurisdiction, depending on the territory and
7 where –- on the territory of which public prosecutor or of which Court we
8 are in. They also denote the territory where the prior activities will
9 be taken for uncovering and detecting the perpetrators of that crime.
10 Q. In keeping with your professional experience and also when
11 reviewing the material forwarded to you by this Defence, did you base your
12 conclusion that the organs found at the base of the Ministry of the
13 Interior are those competent to perform such tasks and does it all confirm
14 what you have just said before this Chamber?
15 A. Yes. The materials, the manner of systematization and structuring
16 of the Ministry of Interior and those who act within the Ministry of
17 Interior is in fact the manner which I have just now explained before this
19 Q. Such organs found at the lowest level of the ministry, that is the
20 OVRs, do they have competent personnel to do so, and is the ministry
21 organised in such a way that such personnel is positioned well,
22 geographically speaking, to be able to investigate crimes and detect
24 A. We could talk about this depending on the criminal act in
25 question, about the crime in question.
1 In cases where we have a more complex crime that requires more
2 specific operative measures such as, for example, even the on-site
3 investigation by criminalistic and ballistic -- police forensic expertise,
4 if it needs to suppress criminal acts such as separating organised groups
5 for -- for trade in human beings it can be that the uncovering of
6 perpetrators of crime can happen in coordination in close correlation
7 between several bodies of internal affairs or by a direct link with the
8 structures at the Ministry of Interior by chain of command towards the
9 centre in the Ministry of Interior.
10 If I have not been clear enough, for example, let's say we have a
11 case that has happened on the territory of a number of police stations.
12 This then will be coordinated by the sector of internal affairs. If
13 measures and -- coordinated and complex measure needs to be taken to
14 uncover this event, coordination can be done at a higher level because at
15 a lower level the people do not have the necessary operative and technical
16 measures which they require to clarify this case.
17 However, they may also not have the necessary knowledge or
18 qualifications to that end.
19 Q. Professor, when you mentioned the competencies of the sectors of
20 the Ministry of Interior in your report, and then the Ministry of Interior,
21 in particular the directorate of public security you put particular stress
22 on the coordination role of those organs. When talking about identifying
23 perpetrators and investigating crimes and having in mind what you just
24 said, to what extent is territorial jurisdiction combined with the other
25 aspects of work of the bodies of the Ministry of Interior, in case such
1 competencies fall outside the remit and jurisdiction of any given OVR?
2 A. In case when an event, a crime, has happened outside the territory
3 of a police station or a given OVR, then it is always the higher levels
4 that become involved in uncovering and resolving the crime, which means
5 that in addition to departments of the interior sectors of the interior
6 get involved according to hierarchy. If it is an organised criminal group
7 which operates on the entire territory of the state, then all these
8 activities are coordinated by the central services at the Ministry of the
9 Interior. And in such a case the jurisdiction is determined by the
10 location where the majority of the crimes have been committed or where the
11 majority of the perpetrators –- are to be found.
12 If it is a more complex crime that encompasses the overall territory
13 of the state it is referred to the highest level, to the central level,
14 where the criminal report or act is submitted. That will result in a more
15 coordinated work of the judicial bodies at the level of the State Prosecutor.
16 Q. Madam Professor, if I understood what you said well, the basic
17 principle of territorial jurisdiction ... Is it combined with the other
18 principle of coordination as a higher type of organisation, higher order
19 type of organisation of the Ministry of Interior? Is that the way you
20 clarify it, the roles of OVRs, SVRs and the ministry itself in the report?
21 A. Yes. It is combined in this way, and it is connected to the
22 principle of efficiency and effectiveness. Everything is coordinated at
23 the level of the MOI and is later implemented in a way that will ensure
24 the greatest efficiency and effectiveness in clarifying a certain event.
25 Q. In practice, Madam Professor, which are the bodies, which for the
1 main part submit criminal reports? At what level of the ministry are
2 those persons or bodies?
3 A. The practice, criminal reports, for the most part are filed at the
4 lowest level. These are the police stations, that is to say, the OVRs.
5 Q. Since you said that in case crime base covers the entirety
6 territory of a republic and that detecting such crimes can go up to the
7 highest professional level of the ministry, can you tell us what is that
8 highest professional level that can submit a criminal report in such a
10 A. In such a case -- we said if there is such a case, then this would
11 be the highest superior at the directorate for public security, and this
12 would be its director.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours ...
14 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will have the second break now and
17 resume at five past 6.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I would mention that, unfortunately,
21 Judge Van den Wyngaert is unable to continue sitting today. I'd expect
22 that she will be sitting again in the morning, or in the afternoon
23 tomorrow, and Judge Thelin and I will sit this last session under the
25 Ms. Residovic.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Could I just mention that my comments at the
3 beginning may be fading in your recollection, certain things seem to have
4 been laboured a little more than need be. A gentle reminder,
5 Ms. Residovic.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
7 bear your instruction in mind. However I do think that I cut short but at
8 least one third concerning my questions, although it is very difficult to
9 achieve, given that I had a concept of my examination-in-chief. However,
10 I will do my utmost to meet your request. If I forget that occasionally,
11 that is simply due to this ideal concept that I had envisaged.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Madam Professor, I believe together we can meet His Honour's
15 request, and I apologise yet again for having failed to meet it in full.
16 Before the break, we were talking about the most senior level
17 within the ministry structure, at which supposing the conditions you
18 described were in place could submit a criminal report.
19 Do you remember discussing that?
20 A. Yes, I remember.
21 Q. In your report, you mentioned the various directors within the
22 Ministry of the Interior. Do you recall that? It is at page 18,
23 paragraphs 71, 72, 73, and 74, as well as 75.
24 Is that right?
25 A. Yes, this is so.
1 Q. To backtrack a bit, can you tell me who appoints directors and
2 under what procedure, when we talk about individual organs within the
3 Ministry of Interior?
4 A. The directors of the bodies within the Ministry of Interior, the
5 director of the bureau for public security, and the director of the
6 direction for security and counter-intelligence are appointed by the
7 government of the Republic of Macedonia.
8 Q. Tell me, how do they go about performing their function within the
9 organ to which they had been appointed as directors?
10 A. In view of the fact that we have bodies within the Ministry of
11 Interior, both directors appointed by the government perform their
12 functions independently leading the sectors which they're charged with.
13 Q. In relation to that, tell me whether the directors of organs that
14 are part of the Ministry of the Interior -- or, rather, can those
15 directors be subject to disciplinary procedures?
16 A. In view of the fact that the directors are appointed by the
17 government of the Republic of Macedonia, they cannot be subject to a
18 disciplinary proceeding.
19 Q. Should the directors fail to execute their tasks, who can raise
20 the issue of responsibility and how?
21 A. In the case that the directors fail to carry out their tasks and
22 duties, and in view of the fact that they're accountable for their work
23 before the minister and the government of the Republic of Macedonia, they
24 can be dismissed from their office by the government of the Republic of
1 Q. Thank you. Professor Taseva, previously you said that the
2 minister and his deputy are not employees of the Ministry of the Interior
3 and that they carry political responsibility. If the situation within
4 their domain of activity is unfavorable they can be held accountable.
5 Do you remember talking about that issue before this Chamber?
6 A. Yes, I remember.
7 Q. Tell me, who can raise the issue of responsibility of the
9 A. The issue of responsibility of the minister can be raised by the
10 minister [as interpreted]. He can ask for the dismissal and removal of
11 the minister but this can also be done by the parliament.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I did not understand
14 Q. You seem to have said that the minister can raise the issue of
15 responsibility or accountability of the minister. Is this a mistake? Did
16 you misspeak? You said members of the parliament.
17 A. I said the prime minister, not the minister.
18 Q. Yes. Thank you.
19 A. Perhaps it's a mistake in the transcript.
20 Q. It is clear now. Thank you.
21 When talking about the competences within the Ministry of the
22 Interior, you said that the minister cannot influence daily -- the daily
23 tasks of directors. Can the minister exert any influence on how the
24 directors go about executing their tasks, daily, since you said that they
25 are independent within their respective domains and should act according
1 to the law?
2 A. The minister cannot influence in the performance of the everyday
3 tasks of the directors of the directorate for public security and the
4 directorate for security and counter-intelligence. Within the framework
5 of carrying out their tasks, they act in accordance with the Law on
6 Internal Affairs and other laws which are under their competencies.
7 Q. Madam Professor, we already discussed several important issues
8 regarding the position the minister enjoys within the Ministry of the
9 Interior. I have a few others on top of that.
10 Is it correct that, concerning the role and position of the
11 minister within the Ministry of the Interior, you gave your opinion and
12 findings in paragraph 56 to paragraph 69, pages 15 through to 18?
13 A. Yes, this is so. This part of the report pertains to the role and
14 position of the minister in the Ministry of Interior.
15 Q. Concerning your findings in the report, you said that the minister
16 enjoys the competencies prescribed by the law. Tell me, can the minister
17 assign certain authority to himself, which does not stem from the law or
18 any governmental or presidential decision, since those two bodies can
19 assign competencies to him?
20 A. This cannot be done by any minister and consequently not by the
21 minister of the interior. The minister cannot bestow authorisations upon
22 themselves or undertake measures which are not provided for by the law, be
23 it by the Law on Internal Affairs or the Law on the Government.
24 Q. In order to make it even clearer for me, I wanted to put a
25 hypothesis to you.
1 Let's say that the person in charge of the sector in the city of
2 Skopje does not act in accordance with the law and regulations in
3 performing his tasks, and the director of the directorate of public
4 security does -- is not carrying out his obligations pertaining to the
5 implementation of laws, can the minister, maybe to use an unfortunate
6 term, assume the position, take their role in performing those tasks?
7 A. This is not possible. The minister cannot undertake the
8 authorisations and competencies of other senior positions in the ministry,
9 even of any employee in the ministry.
10 If they do not or if they fail to carry out their competencies,
11 there are other measures that can be taken, but the minister cannot sit in
12 their place.
13 Q. Thank you. Answering to my previous question you said that the
14 minister of the interior, including other ministers, cannot do anything
15 that is not envisaged by the law.
16 Professor Taseva, what is the basic law, piece of legislation
17 regulating the competencies of all ministries, since you said neither the
18 interior minister nor the other ministers?
19 A. This is, above all, the Law on the Organisation and Work of
20 Government Institutions and the Law on Government.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show Exhibit P92
22 to the witness. That is the Law on Organisation and Work of the State
23 Administration Bodies.
24 Q. Madam Taseva, do the regulations contained in this law obligate
25 all of the ministers, including the minister of the interior?
1 A. Yes, of course. The provisions of this law are obligatory for the
2 minister of the interior and all bodies which are covered by this law, the
3 bodies of the government administration, which includes also the Ministry
4 of Interior.
5 Q. Should a provision of the law in respect of an individual
6 ministry, say, the Ministry of the Interior, be in contrast or in
7 contravention of this law, is there such a provision foreseeing that the
8 Law on Organisation and Work of State Body Institutions exist?
9 A. In view of the fact that this is a systemic law, the provisions of
10 this Law on the Organisation and Work of the Bodies of State
11 Administration will have priority over the provisions of the Law on
12 Internal Affairs as a special law.
13 Q. If this particular law establishes that in a ministry, such as the
14 Ministry of Interior, there are organs within the ministry, would such a
15 regulation be put into force immediately, even though it is not contained
16 in the law?
17 A. In view of the fact that this law regulates that there are two
18 bodies within the Ministry of Interior, this law is applied and two bodies
19 are set up within the ministry, even though this is not foreseen in the
20 Law of Internal Affairs.
21 Q. An overall review of all documents and regulation that you saw ...
22 Can you tell us whether in 2000 and 2001, as part of the ministry, there
23 existed such two organs which, independently, carried out their tasks
24 within their respective domains?
25 A. Yes. Immediately after this Law on Organisation and Work of the
1 Bodies of State Administration was adopted, and it established that there
2 would be two bodies within the Ministry of the Interior, so in addition to
3 the directorate for security and counter-intelligence that was also
4 provided by the Law on Internal Affairs, this law establishes also the
5 bureau of public security as a body within the Ministry of the Interior.
6 Immediately after that, the implementation of this law was
7 provided for. This body within the Ministry of Interior was established,
8 the bureau for public security.
9 Q. Could we please show Article 55 of the law to the witness. It is
10 at N001-9805 in the Macedonian; and in the English version, it is
12 Madam Professor --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
14 The microphone of the counsel is off again.
15 The interpreters kindly ask the counsel to start over again.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I think I'm the culprit, Ms. Residovic. One of my
17 papers was touching a switch that have I here. Sorry.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Professor Taseva, the Article reads: "The minister enacts rules,
20 orders, guidelines, plans, programmes, decisions, and other types of acts
21 for the execution of laws and other regulations, when he is authorised to
22 do so by law."
23 When talking about the authorities of the minister being
24 stipulated in the law, is this the -- is this Article one of the basis you
25 used to come up with your conclusion?
1 A. Yes. This law that is as you stated the systemic and the umbrella
2 law, in a way, pertains to all ministers. When it speaks about the
3 minister, it speaks about any minister in the government of the Republic
4 of Macedonia. And it provides that the minister or the ministers enact
5 rule books, orders and any other act necessary for the operation of the
6 ministries that they're heads of, but those are situations when they enact
7 those things, when they are authorised to do so by the law.
8 So these authorisations are incorporated in other special laws.
9 For instance, the Law on Internal Affairs mentions several times that the
10 minister needs to enact a document that falls within the remit and this is
11 also the basic competence derived from this law.
12 Q. In keeping with your answer, if I were to say that the minister
13 has the authority delegated to him or contained in the law, would that be
14 in accordance with your conclusion, stated in your report and before this
16 A. Of course.
17 Q. Let us have a look at Article 49 and one of its provisions. My
18 question concerns your opinion that this law needs to be implemented prior
19 to any other specific law being implemented.
20 Article 49, does it pertain to any specific minister; or, does it
21 set out the role of all ministers?
22 A. This Article, Article 49, applies to all ministers in the
23 government of the Republic of Macedonia. When it says "a minister," it
24 refers to all ministers in the government, or any minister.
25 Q. If this Article states that: "The minister represents the
1 ministry," would some lexis specialis, so a special law governing a given
2 area, be able to decide that the ministry is represented differently,
3 other than the provision contained in this law?
4 A. This could not be done differently from what this law provides.
5 Usually in the legal practice in the Republic of Macedonia the provisions
6 of the systemic laws are transposed in the provisions of the specific
7 laws, and when it is not done, then the provisions of the general, of the
8 systemic laws are applicable.
9 Q. Madam Professor, does the same apply to the ability of the
10 minister to issue orders? Is that authority the same for all ministers;
11 or, is there a different situation when it comes to the minister of the
12 interior? I refer you to Article 55 of the law.
13 A. The possibility to issue orders belongs to other ministers as
14 well. That is not a specific situation for one of the minister only. All
15 ministers within the performance of their duties can issue orders that are
16 lawful and that are related to the performance of the competencies within
17 the remit of the ministry that they had.
18 Q. When can any minister, including the minister of the interior,
19 issue orders?
20 A. When there is a basis for that in the law and when it is related
21 to enforcing certain decisions of the government or of the parliament, and
22 which are related to the execution of the role of the ministry that
23 they're heads of.
24 Q. And, finally, concerning this law for which you say is a systemic
25 or umbrella law pertaining to all ministers and not individual ministers,
1 tell me whether the legal position of the minister -- of the ministers, is
2 the same; or, is there a distinction between them when it comes to their
3 powers stemming from the law?
4 A. There is nothing that would make one minister different from
5 another, when it comes to exercising their options and competencies having
6 in mind the spirit of this law. In the performance of their options, all
7 ministers in all ministries in the government are equal.
8 Q. What is the difference, then, between the ministries and
9 ministers? What's the difference between the minister of the interior
10 from the minister of culture, for example?
11 A. The difference is actually stemming out of the competencies that
12 the ministries have, the ministries that they're heads of. The ministries
13 themselves have different spheres of competencies, but the ministers, as a
14 rule, are political figures. They are politicians who have been appointed
15 by the parliament to exercise certain role as ministers in the government
16 of the Republic of Macedonia and there is no difference between them,
17 other than the functions of the ministries that they're heads of.
18 Q. Madam Professor, if such differences giving different powers to
19 different ministers exist, do they have to be prescribed in the law as
21 A. Any difference or distinction with regards to performance of the
22 ministers are incorporated or stipulated in the laws that cover the
23 respective area that the ministry covers. There is a law on education;
24 there is a law on science; there is law on agriculture, on finance, on
25 internal affairs. All of these laws specify the specific competencies of
1 the ministers who are heading those ministries. So all of that is
2 incorporated in the law.
3 Q. In your testimony so far, you mentioned something and together we
4 looked at Article 30, paragraph 2 of the Law on Internal Affairs, whereby
5 the minister can order the sealing off of a building in order to apprehend
6 perpetrators. Is that something which would be specific in the case of
7 the minister of the interior or can something like that exist in the case
8 of the minister of culture as well?
9 A. That is a specific competence or authority vested in the minister
10 of the interior. No other minister could perform such competencies. They
11 are not vested with such competencies. No other minister is.
12 Q. Madam Professor, let us look at paragraph 71 of your report, page
13 18. You state decisively when mentioning the function of directors that
14 they are independent in exercising their duty. Why is such position
15 stipulated when it comes to the various ministers within ministries?
16 A. The need to ensure maximum of professionalism in the performance
17 of the office or the function that the Ministry of the Interior is to
18 perform, and also, each of the bodies within the ministry as well. This
19 is why these two bodies were established, and they have completely
20 different competencies. To enable them to respond to their legal duties
21 and obligations, these parts of the ministry, so these bodies within the
22 ministry, have professionals as their heads and they are managing the
23 bodies in terms of exercising the professional role and the competence of
24 the ministry. In this case, this could be the bureau of public security
25 or the directorate for security and counter-intelligence.
1 Q. A little while ago you said that ministers are often political
2 figures rather than professionals. Is that of any importance, given the
3 fact that within the various organs of ministries there are professionals,
4 career employees which perform tasks within the domain of the given
5 ministry? Or in your view, it has no bearing on the composition of the
6 various organs in the ministry?
7 A. Within the state administration of the Republic of Macedonia
8 efforts are made to distinguish between the professional and the
9 political, or the politics. So as politicians, or as political office
10 holders across all ministries, we have the minister and their deputy,
11 whereas with regards to bodies within any of the ministries are headed by
12 professionals who are competent to perform the competencies that this
13 body, within the ministry, is entrusted with. In this case, Ministry of
14 the Interior.
15 Q. Professor Taseva, are you acquainted or do you know
16 General Zoran Jovanovski?
17 A. Yes, I know him.
18 Q. And what is your opinion of him as a professional? Is he a
19 capable professional, is he credible?
20 A. He is a top professional. He is very capable, very credible, very
21 competent in carrying out his obligations and tasks.
22 Q. Testifying before this Court, General Zoran Jovanovski, clarifying
23 the position of the Minister Boskoski and his attitude towards the -- or
24 treatment of the professionals within the structure of the Ministry of the
25 Interior, on page 5132, lines 23 and 24, General Jovanovski stated:
1 "While Minister Boskoski was a minister," and I quote "the final word
2 belonged to us, the professionals."
3 Professor Taseva, does this testimony of General Jovanovski
4 correspond to your understanding of the relation between the minister and
5 his directors?
6 A. It is very much in accordance of my understanding between the
7 minister and his directors. I said myself that previously there is a
8 delineation between the political and the professional, and the General in
9 this regards is the professional.
10 Q. And does it also correspond to your professional and academic
11 knowledge that this is the legally provided situation that the directors
12 of the bodies within the ministry are independent in the performance of
13 their tasks and the minister could not exert influence over those bodies
14 to prevent them from lawfully performing their duties?
15 A. Yes, this is the legal position. The positive legal position
16 incorporated in the laws and the by-laws of the Republic of Macedonia, and
17 the Ministry of Interior.
18 Q. And when you spoke about the situation when there would be crimes
19 committed across a wider area within the Republic of Macedonia, that even
20 the highest professional tier would be able to file a criminal report and
21 when asked by me who would that highest professional tier be you said the
22 director for public security.
23 Do you recall that?
24 A. Yes, I recall.
25 Q. Tell me, first of all, do you know of such cases and of how many
1 such cases do you know from the practice?
2 A. I personally do not know of any such case but I said that this is
3 legally possible.
4 Q. And with regards to the position of the minister, tell me, is the
5 minister yet another professional tier in the ministry, or is he, as you
6 testified before, a political figure chosen by the parliament?
7 A. In the case, the professional part of the ministry cannot extend
8 to the minister which is to say that the minister cannot carry out these
9 kind of tasks, he cannot file criminal reports. Therefore, he is the
10 political segment of the Ministry of Interior.
11 Q. And should the intention of the state that within the ministry the
12 laws are carried out properly be not followed, what would be the
13 minister's responsibility in case of such failure?
14 A. If we're talking about the responsibility of the minister, once
15 again, we're talking about politics and about political responsibility or
17 Q. And also with regards to the position of the minister, who can be
18 a minister, including the minister of the interior, who, or what kind of
19 professionals could be ministers?
20 A. The Law on the Organisation and Work of State Administration
21 provides for an exception in the general provisions where it is stated
22 that the ministers have to be experts in the areas of the portfolios that
23 they will head. For example, the minister of culture has to know culture.
24 The minister of health can be a manager or can be someone working in the
25 medical professional. The law clearly states that the ministers of
1 interior and the minister of Defence have to be civilians, persons who, in
2 the least, two years prior to their appointment as ministers will be
3 employed in a civil service -- in a civilian service. They will not be
4 members of the -- member of the police forces or the army of the Republic
5 of Macedonia.
6 Q. Is this just a legal provision or is it also a constitutional
8 A. This is also a constitutional category. The constitution also
9 stated that the portfolios of defence and police will be headed by
10 civilians, by politicians. This is the result -- or it is due to the
11 major authorisations which these ministries have and the intent of the
12 constitutions and the laws which was to establish civilian control over
13 these institutions which, in themselves, have components of arms and
14 possibilities for other special measures in realising their work tasks and
16 Q. Madam Taseva, considering the fact that the parliament
17 chooses ministers, to the best of your knowledge, does the
18 parliament respect this legal provision absolutely or have there been
19 situations in the practice where there were certain deviations from this
21 A. In practice, there have been situations of deviating from this
22 principle, especially in the case of appointments of ministers of the
23 Ministry of the Interior.
24 Q. And tell me, Minister Boskoski, before he was chosen to be
25 minister, has for a number of years, two or three years, been
1 an employee with the ministry. To what extent do you think that in his
2 case there has been a significant deviation from this orientation of
3 principle that you discussed just now?
4 A. In this case of Mr. Boskoski as well as in other cases which I am
5 aware of - these are ministers before Mr. Boskoski as well as ministers
6 that were appointed after him - for the most part, these are persons
7 employed in the Ministry of Interior who belong to the so-called civilian
8 structures. They were not uniformed persons. Due to this --
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I could be wrong, but I'm not aware where
11 in the expert's report this whole line of questioning of the last five
12 minutes is located, Your Honour, and where the basis for the witness's
13 answers are. And it might be very difficult for the Prosecution to
14 prepare its cross-examination on this line of questioning.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to point to any clear reference,
16 Ms. Residovic?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, apart from the
18 chapter speaking about the position of the minister within the structure
19 but also precisely the -- the precise position of the minister is not
20 described in the report.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the precise position
22 of the minister as a civilian is not described in the report.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Has that concluded your questioning on that point?
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not get this answer.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. This concludes
1 my examination with regards to this issue.
2 Your Honours, considering that I have significantly reduced the
3 number of questions that I have prepared for today, I could continue
4 asking some -- about some matters from the report of Professor Taseva, but
5 this would be in an inconsistent way. So if possible, I would prefer that
6 I continue the examination of the professor tomorrow.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Can you indicate how long you would expect to be?
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is difficult for
10 me to say it now because I need to significantly reduce the scope of
11 this -- of my examination of this expert witness, because we previously
12 indicated that the Defence will spend seven hours in examining this
13 witness, and the Prosecutor, again, additional seven hours, but I believe
14 that I will reduce this for at least an hour and a half or two hours. So
15 less than planned time.
16 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now, but I would suggest that it
17 ought to be possible to reduce even more than you are suggesting. It was
18 the forecast that you would need seven hours when there was such a
19 detailed and careful report that caused me to make the comments that I did
21 So we leave it to your industry overnight, Ms. Residovic.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now.
24 We must ask you to come back tomorrow when we continue sitting,
25 which will be at 2.15.
1 We will adjourn now.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.54 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of
4 February, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.