1 Thursday, 14 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go through the usual routine. First, 30

10 seconds or a minute wasted of the morning. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to

11 you. Can you hear me in a language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your

13 Honours. Yes, I can hear you and understand you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. General Talic, good morning to you. Are you

15 hearing me in a language that you can understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I

17 can hear you and I can understand.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: While you are -- you may sit down, but I would like

19 to know from you, again, confirmation that you have no objection to this

20 sitting to go on, considering that none of the two counsel assigned to

21 you are present.

22 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] I have no objection and I

23 agree that we continue with the proceedings.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, General Talic.

25 Appearances for the Prosecution?

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Nicholas Koumjian and Joanna Korner for the

2 Prosecution, and excuse me, also Nicola Hamilton, case manager.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to run out and make an appointment with

4 my eye specialist. It reminds me, I had a friend of mine, a judge

5 actually, who fell doing some work on a matter and he tripped, fell, hit

6 his head and for some time he was seeing double. And when the Chief

7 Justice and myself went to see him and he told us that he was seeing

8 double, Chief Justice said, "That's the best piece of news I've heard for

9 some time, because at the end of the month, I will send you half a

10 paycheque."

11 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: John Ackerman and Tania Radosavljevic, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 Appearances for General Talic. Don't tell me that Maitre de Roux

15 and Maitre Pitron are here because I will get furious.

16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President and Your

17 Honours. I was just waiting for the interpretation. I'm Natasha

18 Fauveau-Ivanovic and I'm assisted by Mr. Fabien Masson.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and I hope that, as you promised, by

20 Monday this situation will be cleared for the benefit of you all. And

21 also for the tranquility of the mind of this Trial Chamber.

22 The understanding for today is that we will continue, of course,

23 with the cross-examination of Mr. Krzic and then with whatever follows, or

24 after that, and then we will deal with a few issues that we have not

25 necessarily pending but which we think that -- ought to be discussed

1 before we continue, particularly items that were raised during the meeting

2 that you had with Mr. Von Hebel and also additional matters that have

3 emerged in the course of this week.

4 So thank you. Could you please bring in the witness? Thank you.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krzic, it's barely necessary for me to remind

7 you that you will be continuing giving testimony on the same solemn

8 declaration that you made yesterday and on previous occasions, that you

9 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 Thank you.

11 WITNESS: MUHAREM KRZIC [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honours. I have tried to reduce

15 a great deal some of the things I wanted to ask Mr. Krzic in an effort to

16 try to finish within a couple of hours, as I told you I would try to do

17 yesterday. We will just have to see how it goes. I'll do my best.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]

19 Q. Mr. Krzic, good morning.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. What I'm going to try to do today, Mr. Krzic, at least with many

22 of my questions, is to frame them in a way that you can answer them with

23 either a yes or a no, because we have a lot of material to get through and

24 I'd like to get through it if we can today. Understand that if you

25 somehow feel a need to explain your answer beyond a yes or no, I'm certain

1 that the Trial Chamber will permit you to do that. But let's, please, do

2 the best we can to move through this material.

3 I will tell you that if you are not answering the question that I

4 ask you, if you don't understand it, you can ask me to repeat it. If you

5 are not answering, please, understand that I will stop you and ask you to

6 please answer the question that I've asked you. And that way, we can get

7 this finished. Does that sound okay to you?

8 A. Certainly, yes.

9 Q. All right. We were talking yesterday about the arming of Muslim

10 people in the Banja Luka area and the last question that I had asked you

11 was with regard to the Vecici fighters and whether or not they were

12 getting weapons from this person Salih and you had told me that they

13 were.

14 My next question is: They were also getting weapons from a Serb

15 soldier who had stolen weapons from storage, were they not?

16 A. I am not able to answer that question because I don't know for

17 sure.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: The witness needs to have his statements with him

19 again, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm on page 26 of the third statement.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Of the third statement. The third statement, just

23 to make sure that we are in agreement, is the one which is based on the

24 interviews that took place between the 10th and 14th of December, 10th,

25 12th, 14th and 15th of February, 2001, no?

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Mr. -- please, page?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Twenty-six, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN:

6 Q. Have you found that page, Mr. Krzic, page 26?

7 A. Yes, in the English version.

8 Q. The paragraph I'm referring to begins -- it's near the bottom of

9 the page, starts with the language, "On page 133." And it says, "You had

10 gotten some information from a Bosniak in Banja Luka about Serb soldiers

11 stealing weapons from a known underground military storage and selling

12 them to the Vecici fighters. That's what you said, correct?

13 A. I don't remember saying that in relation to Vecici, but I said

14 that I did have information that someone did provide rifles from storage.

15 I didn't say that in relation to Vecici. I do not have any such

16 knowledge, nor did I ever have any such knowledge.

17 Q. Have you read that paragraph that begins with, "On page 133,"

18 begins with that language, at page 26 of that statement?

19 A. I have the Bosnian version in front of me. I said that I -- in

20 Vecici, in order to gain their trust, I said that they had obtained

21 weapons in Banja Luka and from whom. But it doesn't say from a Serb, nor

22 how many weapons. It could have been a pistol or a rifle but certainly

23 not heavy weapons, because that would be absurd. So I don't see how it is

24 possible that in the English version mention is made of a Serb providing

25 weapons for the fighters of Vecici. I never mentioned that. And I think

1 that it was in the translation that an error was made.

2 Q. Would you please read the rest of that paragraph? You read the

3 first sentence. Read the rest of it, please. You can read either version

4 you want, either the B/C/S or the English. I don't care.

5 A. I said that I had heard but I didn't say that to the people of

6 Vecici. I told them that I knew where they may have obtained weapons from

7 but I didn't link it to this statement of this Serb. These are two quite

8 separate things.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has answered your question more than once

10 already, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN:

12 Q. Would you look at statement number 1, please? Find statement

13 number 1 for me. It's over here in this stack.

14 A. [In English] Number 1?

15 Q. Yes, sir. I want to direct you to page 22?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you please go and help witness with the

17 document? This is the statement which is based on the interviews held

18 on -- in 1994, 1995 -- 1994, 1995, in December, March, April, May and

19 August of 1995.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Should be marked number 1.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Page, Mr. Ackerman?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Twenty-two.

23 A. [In English] Here there are not enough pages, there are more than

24 30.

25 Q. Have you found page 22?

1 A. [In English] Yes.

2 Q. This part of your statement refers to a meeting that you had with

3 General Talic prior to the events that occurred in Kozarac and Prijedor.

4 In the large paragraph, about two-thirds of the way down the

5 page, there is language as follows:

6 "General Talic could not afford a rebellion in Banja Luka for

7 three reasons: A, it would tie up some of his forces and upset the supply

8 of provisions to the front; B, he knew that there would be a large number

9 of victims; and C, the political consequence internationally would be

10 grave. Banja Luka had already become a focus of international attention

11 thanks to the activities of the SDA. Several months prior to this

12 meeting, we held several meetings with American senators. General Talic

13 was also aware of the fact that the Bosnians had several thousand weapons

14 in their possession. He was also aware of the fact that if a rebellion

15 took place, then we would be joined by Croats and the number of victims

16 would be very great."

17 My only question is: Did you say that and is it true?

18 A. [Interpretation] That is my position, that is my opinion.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. Before I move to the next area, you had

20 mentioned in your direct examination that you knew the licence tag number

21 of a red kombi that you were talking about in Banja Luka. Could you tell

22 us that licence tag number, please?

23 A. Not that I knew it, but the people who were victims of soldiers

24 from that van, on one occasion, noted down that number and I can find it

25 in the book. I can't memorise it. If necessary, I can find it.

1 Q. Let me ask you to do that when we take the break and be prepared

2 to tell me that number when we come back. Will you do that?

3 A. Yes. But Mr. Ackerman, in view of the warning that you gave me,

4 it is quite possible that there may have been several such red vans. I

5 don't think that there was just one for the whole of Banja Luka.

6 Q. You had -- the only one I'm talking about is you told us on direct

7 examination that you knew the licence tag number of a red kombi and I'm

8 only asking you to give us that tag number that you mentioned on direct,

9 if you can find it. If you can't, I'll understand.

10 This incident about the Vecici fighters, can you tell us

11 approximately when it was that you were asked to become involved in

12 efforts to get them to surrender? When in time?

13 A. I cannot remember the exact date now, but it has been repeated so

14 many times. What I can say is that it was immediately after a meeting

15 with Mr. Peter Galbraith and members of his staff. When I was invited to

16 the municipal assembly, the president of the HDZ came, and I was invited

17 to a talk with Mr. Kupresanin in the municipal assembly about Vecici. I

18 was in company. With me was Mr. Alan Novan (phoen). So if we can find

19 that date, and in any event, it was the summer of 1992.

20 Q. Good enough, summer of 1992 is good enough. The person trying to

21 get you to become involved and arrange for the surrender was Vojo

22 Kupresanin, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at that time, he was president of the ARK Assembly, Autonomous

25 Region of Krajina Assembly?

1 A. I assume that he was.

2 Q. And in that process, he had threatened to personally put you in

3 Manjaca if you didn't show up and go to Vecici to arrange for the

4 surrender, didn't he?

5 A. No, that's not right. He threatened only after the negotiations

6 failed. He requested that I go again and it was then that he threatened,

7 when he demanded that I go again.

8 Q. There was a time when he threatened to put you in Manjaca, right?

9 A. As I was saying, only after the first negotiations failed and when

10 he asked me to go and negotiate surrender again, then he threatened

11 personally to take me to Manjaca.

12 Q. And that concerned you a great deal, that you were threatened with

13 that, didn't it?

14 A. Certainly. For me, I consider that my life was at risk.

15 Q. And you contacted and explained this to Mr. Kelly, did you not?

16 A. By telephone, yes.

17 Q. And Mr. Kelly was with the American embassy in Belgrade, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then you got a telephone call from someone at the Jewish

20 Federation in New York telling you that he would call General Talic and

21 Mr. Panic in Belgrade with regard to the matter. That's true, isn't it?

22 A. I think that he said that he would talk to Mr. Panic, and he asked

23 who was the most responsible person in Banja Luka at the time.

24 Q. And so you gave him Mr. Kupresanin's name? Or whose name did you

25 give him when he asked who the most responsible person was?

1 A. I gave him the name of General Talic and the name of the

2 municipality president, Mr. Tadic.

3 Q. Mr. Radic, Predrag Radic?

4 A. Mr. Radic, sorry.

5 Q. With regard to Predrag Radic, in your statement you mention a time

6 that you had been in a meeting with Predrag Radic, and at the close

7 of the meeting apparently he pulled you aside and said to you, "Stojan

8 Zupljanin was responsible for everything that was happening in Banja

9 Luka." Do you remember that incident?

10 A. I do remember.

11 Q. And what you said in your statement was that you kept this

12 information quiet in the hopes that Mr. Radic would give you additional

13 valuable information in the future, correct?

14 A. I couldn't publicise that, certainly, for several reasons.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, there are some documents that I want

17 Mr. Krzic to be able to refer to, if he wishes. I had advised the

18 Prosecutor yesterday of which ones I was going to be referring to and I

19 think they were pulling them for us so he could be supplied with them.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: These are the ones that were distributed

21 yesterday? This pile?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: No. This is just a small number of documents that

23 Mr. Krzic had attached, had supplied with regard to his statement.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, we need to know what documents are we talking

25 about now. I mean it's -- because it's not clear. Yesterday I

1 found this pile on my desk.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: We will be coming to that. Those are Defence

3 exhibits that I'll be using.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I imagine so. So what are you going to ask him

5 questions about? Which documents?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: These are documents that were supplied by the

7 Prosecution, that he supplied the Prosecution in connection with his

8 efforts to help the Prosecution understand his testimony, I think.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, do you know which documents Mr. Ackerman

10 is referring to?

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes. He gave us a list of documents

12 that he was going to refer to yesterday. I'm afraid, however, there has

13 been a slight misunderstanding. As the Defence wanted to put them to him,

14 we thought the Defence were going to supply copies, so we haven't actually

15 pulled them, as Mr. Ackerman suggests. I don't think it would be very

16 difficult to find them but ...

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Are we in possession of them? In other words, all

18 the documents that were exhibited or admitted in the course of Mr. Krzic's

19 evidence, I have in this folder here. Are we talking of documents that I

20 ought to find in this folder or are they new documents --

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- that we haven't seen before.

23 MS. KORNER: I rather think they were -- I personally am afraid

24 I have not gone through them, but I rather think they are not documents

25 that you're going to find in the Banja Luka binders. But I need to do a

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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1 double-check. I'm afraid that we have all been working on the basis that

2 if the Defence were going to put the documents, they were going to supply,

3 but I'd need to do a double-check. At any rate, at the moment all I can

4 say is we were given a pile of documents yesterday.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We, too.

6 MS. KORNER: And I rather thought that's what Mr. Ackerman was

7 going to put to the witness this morning. I'm obviously wrong.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, there is obviously --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have these documents handy?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I have them and I will not go to them now, I'll

11 wait until after the break. I'll get copies done during the break and be

12 ready to use them. There was clearly a misunderstanding between me and

13 the Prosecutor yesterday. We will get it straightened out.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 MR. ACKERMAN:

16 Q. All right. Mr. Krzic, where I want to go now is to the book,

17 "Life and Death Under Occupation." I don't know what you have before

18 you, whether you have that book before you or not and whether you have the

19 English translations that have been provided of pages from that book, but

20 if you do not, I'd ask that it be supplied to you so we can refer to it.

21 A. I have the book in Bosnian.

22 Q. The difficulty I suppose --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Which -- can I, again, interrupt for a moment and

24 add some information as to which book you're referring to, Mr. Ackerman?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Called "Life and Death Under Occupation," January

1 4th, 1993.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Who wrote this book?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Krzic.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's incorrect --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The translation from Mr. Krzic's -- part of

6 Mr. Krzic's book that we have is a partial English translation of crimes

7 against the Banja Luka Krajina, 1992, 1994, Muharem Krzic.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: That's the other book.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the only translation that we have.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps I could assist. What Mr. Ackerman is

11 calling a book, I imagine, was published as a book, but this was not

12 written by Mr. Krzic. What this is, and --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember Mr. Krzic answering one of the very first

14 questions, is this the only book that you wrote, and he said yes.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: This material, "Life and Death Under Occupation,"

16 was apparently published by the Bosnian mission to the United Nations. It

17 says at the top, "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Permanent Mission to

18 the United Nations." It's a collection of documents that were faxed

19 generally through Mr. Krzic, either authored by him or he forwarded them

20 on to the embassy, so he is the author of many of the documents in this

21 material. But it was published, to my knowledge, only in English. We may

22 have translated it into B/C/S.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: But if it was published in New York, probably by

24 Muhamed Sacirbey, I can assure you it would be very strange if it was

25 published in Serbo-Croat. Because this was for dissemination in New York

1 so what I would -- but we don't have a copy of it.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: We will probably have to deal with that during the

3 break too, then, Your Honour, I'm sorry.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman --

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: I can make a copy of it. I have one with me. I

6 can either give it to the witness now or I can copy it for the Court and

7 council. Some of the documents that were used during his direct came from

8 that material.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, if we can go ahead and do that, we can do

11 it. Because the break, we still have another hour before the break.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I have plenty of things to do, Your Honour. No

13 shortage of material.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

15 MR. ACKERMAN:

16 Q. I'm going now to some things that you talked about in your

17 direct testimony. When did your wife leave Banja Luka?

18 A. My wife left at the end of 1992.

19 Q. Had she been employed in Banja Luka?

20 A. In Odzicajvic factory.

21 Q. And what was her position in that factory?

22 A. She was head of one of the laboratories. She is a technology

23 engineer of chemical technology.

24 Q. And was she dismissed from her job?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. When was she dismissed from her job?

2 A. In that period of widespread dismissals.

3 Q. Dismissed by whom?

4 A. Well, the authorities in the administration of Odzicajvic, but

5 even if she hadn't been dismissed, she wouldn't have dared go to work

6 because there were constant threats.

7 Q. Which is it? Did she stop going to work or was she actually

8 dismissed?

9 A. She was dismissed, like the other non-Serbs.

10 Q. Why did she leave Banja Luka?

11 A. She left because the danger for families was growing. She is a

12 woman and she could have easily been arrested and raped.

13 Q. And where did she go?

14 A. She went to Zagreb.

15 Q. You said that she went in the last convoy to leave Banja Luka; is

16 that true?

17 A. To tell you the truth, I can't remember that particular moment

18 because, for me, that was tragic and it's very difficult for me to

19 recollect without prior warning so that I can look it up.

20 Q. Well, there weren't any convoys leaving Banja Luka, ever, were

21 there?

22 A. Will you, please, tell me where you found that? I will look it up

23 and give you a precise answer.

24 Q. I'm just asking you the question. There weren't ever any convoys

25 leaving Banja Luka, were there?

1 A. Will you, please -- if you're asking me about my son's departure,

2 I can remember exactly because I saw him off myself. As far as my wife is

3 concerned, just now, I can't remember. Maybe because she died in the

4 meantime.

5 Q. I'm not asking you, sir, about your wife or your son, and I'm

6 sorry about even raising this issue with you, but my question is simple.

7 There weren't ever any convoys that left Banja Luka, were there?

8 A. Of course there were. There were for a time, then they were

9 prohibited, then they were resumed. Of course there were. In May, there

10 was even an air link. The last planes went in May, just before the attack

11 on Kozarac. I think it was my son that left on one of those planes and

12 via Belgrade, he moved to Zagreb.

13 Q. Those planes were going to Belgrade, weren't they?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. We talked a bit yesterday, and I want to talk a little bit more,

16 about the two votes that were held. There were both a plebiscite and a

17 referendum, weren't there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the referendum took place because the Badinter Commission had

20 ordered that there be a referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina because it

21 appeared that the Serb population was opposed to independence and they

22 wanted a referendum to see what the will of the population was?

23 A. I think so, yes.

24 Q. And the Serbian plebiscite was asking Serbs if they wanted to

25 remain in Yugoslavia, correct?

1 A. Yes, but that happened at sometime earlier.

2 Q. Yes, it did. And the referendum which was boycotted by the Serbs

3 was asking voters if they were in favour of independence?

4 A. Yes, that's more or less correct.

5 Q. Okay. You told us when you were talking about the things that

6 were happening in Banja Luka between April and December of 1992 that many

7 people had to change their names and be re-christened in order to keep

8 their jobs. Do you remember saying that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you give us the name of one person who was forced to change

11 their name?

12 A. I can but I don't see why I should do that.

13 Q. Well, just -- I'd just like to know the name of one person that --

14 A. Because I --

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... change their name?

16 A. Because I might expose such a person to danger, at his workplace.

17 Q. Would you be willing to give us the name if we were in closed

18 session so that nobody could hear you?

19 A. Yes, I would.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we just do that quickly, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the relevance of the question? Why do you

24 want to extract from the witness any particular name?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: To be able to investigate that and determine if

1 he's telling us the truth.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I obviously agree with him that he shouldn't be

3 made to mention any name at random. Why should one person be selected

4 simply because Mr. Krzic chooses at any given moment to mention that

5 particular person and not another so that you can investigate?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I think I should be able to investigate the

7 veracity of his testimony to Your Honours and I can't do that if he won't

8 give me the name.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: The rest of his testimony, I think, finishes here in

10 the sense that he has told you that if we are in closed session he's

11 prepared to give you a name. But I'm not prepared to allow him to give us

12 names, not in this fashion. I mean if there is any particular person that

13 you have in mind and that you would like to have conduct investigations

14 upon, yes, but not at random. I mean you just ask him. He may have his

15 own reasons why he should mention one person rather than another.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And the next thing is that he could give us a name

18 and frankly, I don't know how you can proceed with investigating further

19 unless then he gives us a hell of a lot more information about this

20 particular person. And I don't think we should be moving in that

21 direction.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: For the record, Your Honour, I urge that I be

23 permitted to ask him that question. You have already ruled and so I will

24 go forward.

25 Q. Mr. Krzic, you told us during your direct examination that -- let

1 me just refer to the actual transcript. It's page 1481. Mr. Koumjian

2 asked you this question: "Mr. Krzic, were you aware, in Banja Luka, in

3 1992, did you hear the sound of explosions at night?" And your answer

4 was: "Yes, every night." Correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And I think you said that some nights there were more than one

7 explosion?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you actually mean that every night between April and December,

10 1992, there were explosions in Banja Luka?

11 A. Generally speaking, yes. Whether or not there was a night without

12 explosions, let me tell you, we would notice such nights immediately.

13 These are details, but in my opinion, I think it was every night.

14 Q. So if there were 275 nights between April and December, it's your

15 testimony to this Trial Chamber that there were more than 275 explosions

16 in Banja Luka during that time?

17 A. I think there were -- there was a large number.

18 Q. At page -- well, I'm not sure of the page. There was a page in

19 the transcript, testimony in the transcript, and you may or may not recall

20 it, you were asked by Mr. Koumjian about the confiscation of businesses

21 and apartments when the bombing stopped, and your answer was, "Yes,

22 however, the shelling, the bombings, did not stop altogether." The

23 question I have is, there never was any shelling of Banja Luka, was there?

24 A. When you say shelling, I assume that you mean firing of

25 projectiles from cannons or mortars. As far as I know there was no

1 shelling from the opposing side or from the army of BH so to say, but the

2 lines were at about 50 kilometres away.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Could the witness be given a copy of Prosecution

4 Exhibit 461, please.

5 Q. Mr. Krzic, the document that's been handed you is Prosecution

6 Exhibit 461, and it has to do with a 22 June, 1992, meeting with General

7 Talic, does it not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And a number of people were present at that meeting, Mufti

10 Halilovic, Dr. Duric, Dr. Sirbegovic, Medic, Professor Bajric, and you;

11 correct?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And you were there representing the SDA and these people were

14 representing various other Islamic Muslim organisations of one form or

15 another?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the purpose of this meeting was to try to seek the help of

18 General Talic regarding the safety of Muslims in the Banja Luka area;

19 correct?

20 A. Not only in Banja Luka but in the surrounding places too.

21 Q. And General Talic was in a position to have been aware, of course,

22 of the political makeup of the Banja Luka area since he lived there,

23 correct?

24 A. I assume.

25 Q. Yes. Now, this document was prepared, I take it, after the

1 meeting as a memorandum of what had occurred in the meeting?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was it prepared by you or was it prepared by someone else?

4 A. It was prepared in the presence of the participants, but I printed

5 it on the machine.

6 Q. And then, after having an opportunity to review it for its

7 accuracy, all of these people from all these various organisations signed

8 it, correct?

9 A. Yes, they signed it.

10 Q. And it was important to all the people who were present at that

11 meeting from the various Muslim organisations that this document be an

12 accurate record of what had gone on in that meeting, wasn't it?

13 A. One would assume so.

14 Q. And you record in this document that each of these persons signed

15 that General Talic had advised that Muslims should contact the Crisis

16 Staff of Banja Luka Municipal Assembly to request visits to collection

17 centres and concentration camps and everything else connected with this,

18 correct? Now I'm asking you isn't that what it says?

19 A. Yes. That is what's contained in the document.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I now want to go into the pile of

22 documents that you've been given that are marked as Defence exhibits and I

23 think there is a copy that we had given to the Registrar for Mr. Krzic to

24 refer to. And I'd ask that that be given to him.

25 Q. Mr. Krzic, what I'll be doing as we go through these documents is

1 basically asking you if you have seen the document before, referring you

2 to language in the document and simply asking you if that language is true

3 or not true, okay?

4 A. This document is one that I see for the first time. The Glas, the

5 newspaper Glas is familiar to me, of course, but --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I don't think we can go ahead

7 like this. The witness has gone straight on to a document and I don't

8 even know which document he's talking about.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand. He misunderstood my instructions.

10 I'm going to ask him -- I was getting ready to interrupt him.

11 Q. Mr. Krzic, the first document that you should see is DB2, It's

12 marked as DB2. It's English. And DB2B is in B/C/S and it's an article

13 from a newspaper, the headline being, "Krzic Provokes Chaos." You have

14 that document in front of you, do you not?

15 A. Yes, I have.

16 Q. And the writer, apparently, is someone who is writing a letter to

17 the editor of this newspaper and he's claiming that it's not true when you

18 said, "We are asked to sign a declaration of our loyalty to the Serbian

19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He's just suggesting that that's not a

20 true statement on your part if, in fact, you ever made that statement.

21 And tell me your reaction to that.

22 A. To give you a correct answer, I would have to -- I would have had

23 to read this article previously. So to give you an answer in a few

24 seconds, which concerns an article which I see for the first time now, for

25 your sake and for the sake of the speed of this trial, I can make a few

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1 comments but I can't make a proper comment. What I can say is that it

2 seems to concern someone who is a very chauvinistic person and who wants

3 to provoke chaos. It is not I who wants to provoke chaos. And you can

4 see below that the same man gives such -- makes such statements. The

5 purpose of which is to provoke chaos. That is my comment.

6 Q. All right. Go now to the next document which is DB3. This

7 appears to be a statement given by a person named [redacted] Do you

8 know [redacted]

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And [redacted] is a Muslim, is he not?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Excuse me, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Koumjian?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry for not interrupting earlier, but I'm

15 wondering if dealing with these documents, and I believe these are reports

16 from the security service, and they concern basically statements or

17 interrogations of individuals, it wouldn't be better to go into closed

18 session.

19 MS. KORNER: Private session.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Private session.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a wise suggestion, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine with me, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, we will now go into private

24 session, please.

25 [Private session]

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1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now, Madam Registrar, no?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry to have interrupted you like this,

5 Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: No problem.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But it just occurred to my mind and perhaps the

8 witness can answer the question. The question is, in case you have lost

9 track, Mr. Krzic, and I wouldn't blame you if you did, Mr. Ackerman read

10 out to you another part from the New York Times report, particularly where

11 it alleges that you said, after saying that Banja Luka is the last ghetto

12 for Muslims and Croats in the region, you also said that, "If the purges

13 start here, they won't be able to be stopped." And Mr. Ackerman's

14 question is whether you said that.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember that statement,

16 but I do assert that using a metaphor, Banja Luka could have already then

17 been described as a ghetto for non-Serbs and I stand by that. There are

18 two statements here on the same page, but the question is, when I made

19 that statement, whether it may have been a month previously or on the same

20 day as the statement by Lord Owen. If it was on the same day that Lord

21 Owen was in Banja Luka, then -- and not just I, but Mr. Hadzagic was with

22 me. We made a statement about the crimes being committed throughout the

23 region and specifically in Banja Luka. And there were quite sufficient

24 elements there to make it clear that genocide had begun, not just eviction

25 and ethnic cleansing, an expression that does not correspond to the

1 situation.

2 MR. ACKERMAN:

3 Q. All right. Mr. Krzic, can we return now to my question. My

4 question was: You are quoted in that article as saying, "If the purges

5 start here, they won't be able to be stopped." My question is: Did you

6 say that?

7 A. I really -- I told you other things, worse things, but now the

8 question is when what was said, at the time at which things were said, and

9 I can't tell that time from this. My position was clear. I had that

10 position. If they start deporting people, there will be no end to it.

11 That's quite clear. If en masse killings commence, we won't be able to

12 put an end to it. I don't see what is in dispute here. That's clear.

13 The only thing that is in dispute or is contentious is the fact that you

14 are contending my statement, and you haven't given the basic elements, the

15 basic facts, when the statements were given, under what circumstances,

16 because I'm referring to the press conference in the Bosna Hotel where

17 there were -- I'm referring to the press conference in the Bosna Hotel

18 where there were scores of foreign journalists, and where these words, not

19 these words, not "if it begins" but the words "it has already begun" were

20 used. If mass killing has already commenced, then ethnic cleansing is a

21 secondary matter.

22 Q. I hate to risk asking you a third time to answer my question.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you would be risking the Chamber stopping

24 you now. I think he has given you an answer in a way which maybe you did

25 not expect, but has given you an answer and I don't think you will get any

1 further with the witness on this matter because he is drawing parameters

2 around it, depending on what time are we talking about, which particular

3 point in time.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Could I get the usher's assistance with another

5 document, please.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I want the witness to see the first page just to

8 see the date of the publication and the order, and then I'm going to refer

9 to the second page.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Krzic, you see that what we are looking at here is an

11 article from Newsday, written by Roy Gutman, September 25, 1992. You

12 know Mr. Gutman, do you not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you have meetings with Mr. Gutman?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You've actually had Mr. Gutman as a guest in your home, have you

17 not?

18 A. Not as a guest, a visitor.

19 Q. And as an a visitor in your home, you've gotten to respect him and

20 you believe that he is a respectable journalist, correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could we look then at page 2 of this document? And look down

23 toward the bottom, the yellow part down toward the bottom starting with,

24 "Until now."

25 "Until now, Banja Luka, the principal city in northern

1 Bosnia, has been largely spared the terror tactics of ethnic cleansing,

2 the process of emptying territory of unwanted ethnic groups."

3 That's what Mr. Gutman wrote in September of 1992. Do you agree

4 with him?

5 A. I don't agree. Ethnic cleansing started a lot earlier. I

6 describe scenes of ethnic cleansing not in the way that you imagine them,

7 but scenes involving many planes which were leaving Banja Luka. And now I

8 will use a metaphor. They were leaving Banja Luka as if it were before

9 the fall of Saigon, and I can bear witness to this.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Could I have those documents returned, please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If we need to go into private session again,

13 Mr. Ackerman, please tell me in good time.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I will, Your Honour. Your Honour, I'm sorry to be

15 taking time but I'm skipping some material just in the interests of trying

16 to finish. If you'll just give me a moment, please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I understood that from the way you were handling

18 those papers.

19 MR. ACKERMAN:

20 Q. Would you look, Mr. Krzic, at Defence Exhibit DB22A?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if you look at it, there is a B/C/S version. It's a copy of

23 an article from a newspaper, and the first thing I'll ask you is have

24 you seen this article previously?

25 A. I apologise, an article? Ah, on the other side.

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, could I make a suggestion, just for

2 the clarity of everyone when we are reading the transcripts months later,

3 that we just indicate that, for example, this document is from Glas Srpska

4 on the 9th of August, 1994, it will make it easier for us all to identify

5 what was being talked about.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I appreciate that Mr. Koumjian, and perhaps

7 Mr. Ackerman takes the suggestion, which the Chamber makes its own.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I do.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we had agreed to something similar or along

10 those lines already, before.

11 MR. ACKERMAN:

12 Q. Have you seen the article before?

13 A. No. I can't remember, but I know that I received an oral report

14 about it.

15 Q. It makes a rather scurrilous allegation against you regarding an

16 embezzlement of money in London, and I take it that your position is

17 that's absolutely not true. And that's not the part I'm really interested

18 in unless you want to tell me it is true.

19 The part I'm interested in is the part of the article headed, "I

20 Saved the People of Vecici." And you'll find it in the English version on

21 page 3. And it purports to be quoting from you, quoting you as saying, if

22 you'll look at the last couple of sentences, "Do not hold it against me

23 that I am pointing this out but my humble self played a role there. The

24 people of Vecici know this best and that is a story in itself, an epic

25 tale."

1 Did you say that?

2 A. It's really difficult to remember the words, whether I said this

3 at some point or not. But that I saved Vecici, the people of Vecici, I

4 would never be able to claim such a thing. Because when the people from

5 Vecici are in question, my role finished with my visit and with my report

6 to the International Red Cross on what was happening there. As well as on

7 the report of the journalists who visited me then. This is when my role

8 finishes in the matter of Vecici. So unless you consider this to be

9 saving them.

10 Q. Well, I suggest to you, Mr. Krzic, that throughout this period of

11 1992 and into 1993, that what you were doing was making exaggerations and

12 false claims to media and to government organisations for the purpose of

13 trying to draw attention to yourself and to aggrandise yourself and to

14 draw attention of the West to Banja Luka and the situation there, and many

15 of your claims were false, not true; isn't that true?

16 A. I don't agree with that. I'm under oath here and I have spoken

17 about things that I know of. If there were any errors, I was convinced

18 that it was important to say what I knew. It wasn't a time -- at that

19 time scientific work was not in question. It wasn't possible to

20 use references or to use libraries so I wouldn't agree with your

21 conclusion. My intention was not to aggrandise my role because that

22 entailed danger. But what I did was something that others members of the

23 SDA did too, to a greater or lesser extent. They appeared in public. If

24 you consider that to be a way of exaggerating one's role, if you consider

25 that appearing at a press conference amounts to doing this, for example,

1 in Hotel Bosna in the presence of -- well, we know very well who was

2 present there, if you think this is a way of trying to improve one's

3 image, then I'm very puzzled by that.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: We have to go back into private session, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will go into private session, please.

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in public session now.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 MR. ACKERMAN:

12 Q. This document basically is lists of candidates from the various

13 political parties in the municipal elections in 1990 for the municipality

14 of Banja Luka, isn't it?

15 A. This is the first time I have this document before me.

16 Q. The question is: It is a list of candidates --

17 A. Yes, yes, it is. That's right.

18 Q. What I'd like you to do is look at page 3 where the list for the

19 SDS begins, and it contains, I believe, 130 candidates.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You do not see on that list the name of Radoslav Brdjanin anywhere

22 among that 130, do you?

23 A. I assume it isn't there, because he wasn't a citizen of Banja

24 Luka.

25 Q. So your contention that he would have been part of the Banja Luka

1 municipality Crisis Staff would also not have been possible because he

2 wasn't a citizen of Banja Luka, correct?

3 A. Yes, but the headquarters of the crisis -- of the regional Crisis

4 Staff was also in Banja Luka, as far as I know. At least it had meetings

5 there very often.

6 Q. I was talking about the municipal Crisis Staff of Banja Luka, not

7 the regional Crisis Staff.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I want to you look at 32B. These are the B/C/S versions of the

10 documents under 32A.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I think I must say for the record

12 that all of these documents, beginning with 31, are just rough draft

13 translations that were done unofficially. I received these

14 documents last Wednesday. I wanted to use them this week and so I asked

15 that they be translated on an emergency basis, unofficially, and if the

16 Court does not want me to use these unofficial translations, of course, I

17 won't, but I need to disclose to you that that's what they are. They are

18 not CLSS translations.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Koumjian or Ms. Korner?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's not a problem. I don't know if this would

21 save any time, but if counsel's line of questioning is going to prove that

22 Mr. Brdjanin was neither a member of the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka

23 nor the Crisis Staff for the Municipality of Banja Luka, that's not our

24 contention. We are willing to stipulate that he was not a member of

25 those.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: I appreciate that. And that's not where I'm going,

2 but it's not to have the stipulation.

3 Q. Mr. Krzic, you have contended that your representatives, the SDA

4 representatives, walked out of the assembly of the municipality of Banja

5 Luka early in 1992, correct?

6 A. Yes, from the assembly, which was considering -- which was

7 discussing changes, amendments to the statute, and joining ZOBK, the

8 Association of Municipalities. I would have to have a look at that again,

9 but don't rely on what I'm saying. I can't remember exactly. It could

10 have been the autonomous region, but I'll have a look and then I can tell

11 you, precisely.

12 Q. And following that, in meetings with Mr. Vance and Mr. Owen, you

13 were urged to have your deputies return to the assembly, weren't you?

14 A. Don't use the plural. Lord Owen made this suggestion.

15 Q. All right. What I'd like you to do is look through these

16 documents. Can you identify these documents that are the documents in

17 32B? Can you tell the Trial Chamber what these documents are?

18 A. I can see that these are confirmations of presence of deputies at

19 various sessions of the municipal assembly. Several assemblies are in

20 question here, several sessions of the assembly are in question, the 27th,

21 the 24th, et cetera. These are just examples.

22 Q. We don't have time to go through each and every entry, but would

23 you agree with me that the people whose names appear here are, if not

24 completely, at least primarily, non-Serb delegates to the assembly, either

25 Muslims or Croats?

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1 A. Yes, yes. It's obviously -- these are obviously certificates that

2 have been selected.

3 Q. They are participating in the assembly all the way from May

4 through October of 1992?

5 A. I didn't say that. It has to be compared with the sessions; and

6 secondly, you should know that, as far as I can see, the names here, the

7 names of the deputies, I can see names of deputies from the SDP and from

8 the Reformist Party. Of course the SDA is here too. I can't remember

9 which sessions they attended and which ones they did not. This

10 information must be found in some other way.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we now have copies of the documents

12 that we didn't have earlier. They've been marked with exhibit numbers.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Could I ask Mr. Ackerman for a copy? I gave all

14 12 copies to the Defence.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: You do have this one, don't you?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters have a copy as well?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: We are trying to get them to you. We have enough

18 for you, I think. We always think of the interpreters first.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, proceed.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Do we have a set of the documents for Mr. Krzic?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which are you referring to?

22 MR. ACKERMAN:

23 Q. Look, please, at Exhibit DB37A, and this is just --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, Mr. Ackerman, the interpreters still

25 do not have their copies.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Have the copies been -- okay, thank you. So I

3 suppose you can proceed, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

5 Q. Mr. Krzic, we are looking at --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: 37A, you said.

7 MR. ACKERMAN:

8 Q. -- 37A, and this is a document dated 7 August 1992. It comes from

9 the Banja Luka Citizens Council. What is that? What is the Banja Luka

10 Citizens Council?

11 A. We had a gathering, an informal one, of intellectuals who would

12 meet occasionally, ever since 1990, or later, and who reviewed the

13 situation purely from the standpoint of getting insight into the

14 situation, and endeavouring to overcome difficulties. Later, some SDA

15 members, I think, but I'm not 100 per cent sure, developed this new name

16 known as the Citizens Council of Banja Luka, and that is what is referred

17 to in this document. It is synonymous, if I can put it that way, yes,

18 well -- by this name, several people could be covered. I would receive a

19 document of this kind that was signed and it would be up to me to forward

20 it and add any comments, if I had any to add. I did not write such

21 documents, but I did receive them.

22 Q. This organisation was a multi-ethnic organisation, then, made up

23 of Bosniaks, Croats, Serbs?

24 A. I can just tell you about my impressions. I really don't know who

25 they were. I even think that it was a multi-ethnic group.

1 Q. And you weren't a member of that group, were you?

2 A. No, no. Absolutely not.

3 Q. On page 1, in the second paragraph, the report indicates that, "On

4 6 August 1992, roundups were carried out at three points in Banja Luka

5 because the Serbs, like the Croats and Muslims, will not respond to

6 military call-ups." This means that Serbs were being arrested for failure

7 to respond to military call-ups in the same way that Croats and Muslims

8 were?

9 A. Yes, that is common knowledge.

10 Q. Okay. If you look on page 3, bearing in mind this is a report of

11 7 August 1992, you'll see the language, "With the most recent" --

12 A. Which paragraph?

13 Q. It's the last paragraph on page 3, "With the most recent massacre

14 in the three villages mentioned, Banja Luka is next for ethnic cleansing

15 with potentially dreadful consequences." Do you see that?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. And, of course, the implication of that sentence is that as of 7

18 August, 1992, there had been no ethnic cleansing in Banja Luka, isn't it?

19 A. In view of my earlier statements, I don't know whether there is a

20 precise definition of ethnic cleansing. For me, ethnic cleansing is every

21 form of abandoning one's native soil and property under coercion, whether

22 it be of a psychological nature or direct physical threat. So that is my

23 definition. I don't mind if other people have different definitions. And

24 according to that definition, ethnic cleansing started much earlier.

25 Whether each individual member you are mentioning now, the citizens

1 council, each member of that council shared that same definition, I

2 don't know, maybe that is up to experts to say. My definition is an

3 empirical one. People left because of psychological pressure. It was

4 sufficient to hear songs like, "We'll kill, we'll slaughter, wolves are

5 killing and slaughtering. We will slaughter everything that is not

6 Serb." That would be enough for people to leave.

7 Q. This statement by the Banja Luka Citizens Council, August of 1992,

8 that ethnic cleansing had not yet started in Banja Luka essentially, is

9 consistent with a similar statement by Lord Owen that we just recently

10 referred to in September of 1992, isn't it? Both of them saying basically

11 the same thing?

12 A. I have to add something, Your Honours, that I think you should

13 bear in mind.

14 Q. Excuse me, are you answering my question?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember what the question was?

17 A. Yes. The question was, among other things, --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krzic, answer the question. You don't have to

19 explain back to Mr. Ackerman what the question was. If you've heard it

20 you've heard it, and please proceed with your answer.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to mention, Your

22 Honours, that this document, if it was not attached among the documents

23 that I had available to me in my book, I cannot say that the document was

24 ever in my hands. So what I'm saying, it is quite possible for the

25 intelligence service to have interfered and, as I see, it was very active.

1 So if this document did pass through my hands, which means that I received

2 it from people whose names I will give, if necessary, then I accept that I

3 have seen this document.

4 MR. ACKERMAN:

5 Q. So are you saying that it's possible that the intelligence service

6 manufactured this document?

7 A. I'm not claiming that. But a document that I did not send and

8 that I did not have access to, it is very difficult for me to comment on.

9 But, actually, I've already answered your question. I believe that ethnic

10 cleansing started much earlier. And I've already given the explanation

11 for this.

12 Q. Look at Exhibit DB39, please.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't know whether we are in or out

14 of private session. We should be out.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in public session at the moment.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. That's fine.

17 Q. Did you find this document?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This is a letter dated 2 January 1993, sent apparently to

20 Mr. Sacirbey at the BiH mission in the United Nations, correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It's a report from a meeting held in the ICRC offices on 29

23 December, 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During that meeting, you say or somebody says, whoever wrote this,

1 about halfway down the page, "It was pointed out that the ICRC should not

2 issue statements about the problem of two Merhamets." What was the

3 problem of two Merhamets?

4 A. Will you please tell me the page.

5 Q. Page 1, halfway down.

6 A. Yes, I see it.

7 Q. What was the problem of two Merhamets?

8 A. Well, the core of the problem was that a group within Merhamet,

9 MDD of Merhamet, which is a charitable organisation at the level of Bosnia

10 and Herzegovina, it is a member of an association of humanitarian

11 organisations, I think, of the Red Cross and Red Crescent. In Banja Luka,

12 there was a split in positions regarding the work of those organisations,

13 but I think that the differences occurred because of the tense situation

14 that prevailed there at the time. It wasn't a normal situation. And one

15 half of Merhamet members got scared and agreed to register in the

16 so-called Serb state, whereas the others did not. And they retained the

17 original name, MDD Merhamet, and those who agreed to

18 register called themselves MHD, that is, Muslim Humanitarian

19 Organisation, voluntary organisation. That was the gist of it. We felt

20 that this should not be over-emphasised, that both organisations should be

21 allowed to engage in humanitarian activities, mainly feeding the

22 population and providing the lowest level of medical care.

23 Q. You've told us many times that Serbs were creating a climate of

24 fear in an attempt to force non-Serbs to leave the Krajina region and

25 ethnically cleanse the Krajina region, and that's your position, is it

1 not?

2 A. It is a position contained in a series of documents.

3 Q. If you look at the second page of this document we are looking at

4 now, under the heading, "Report 2," it says --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- that at least 1700 Muslims left in the Sipovo municipality all

7 of whom would already left had they been allowed. Who was keeping those

8 people from leaving?

9 A. This report was obtained from a person that was in direct contact

10 with Sipovo, because it had family members there, and I can only repeat

11 what is written in the report, and I have quoted it literally. So I'd

12 have to read the report and then tell you what it says, but you can do

13 that yourself. But on condition that it is correctly translated, I agree

14 with this report that I wrote.

15 Q. You don't know, then, who was keeping them from leaving, whether

16 it was Muslims that were holding them there or other people?

17 A. Mostly the authorities at the time prevented it, because policies

18 changed. They needed manpower in Sipovo in the woods there, and it

19 depended on the degree of terror that existed, and it changed from one

20 local community to another, from the structure of the authorities, and

21 even it depended on individuals and their readiness to go to the extreme

22 or not. So you would have to review several reports and see if the

23 situation changed that later they were forced to leave. So, in my

24 judgement here, they were kept there as labour, or even one might not

25 exclude it, as a reserve force should a breakthrough be made by Croatian

1 forces from Kljuc so they could be kept there as a shield. They may also

2 be used for exchanges because I think this did occur, civilians were

3 exchanged for Serb soldiers. So all these were possible options in this

4 case.

5 Q. Look now at Defence Exhibit 40, would you please. This is an

6 article of January 24th, probably 1993, from the newspaper Glas, and it

7 has to do with a meeting that you had had with Mr. Radic, Mr. Predrag

8 Radic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. One of the things you were trying to do was to get Mr. Radic to

11 get the police involved in helping protect the Muslim people in Banja

12 Luka, isn't that correct?

13 A. Please, I really have to put a question to you now. I won't put

14 it in the original Bosnian version, but I need to read to see what this is

15 about, because there were many similar meetings. I can give you an answer

16 in principle, but you must tell me exactly which sentence you're referring

17 to and I will confirm whether I said it or not.

18 Q. Okay. What I'm really referring to is something that Predrag

19 Radic apparently told that newspaper with regard to demands that you had

20 been making on him. I'll just ask you if you know whether or not this is

21 true. Mr. Radic said that your demands that he do something --

22 A. Yes, that is true. Now I understand where you're heading so,

23 please, continue.

24 Q. What he had said to you was that the people you needed to talk to

25 about control of the police were the head of the Ministry of the Interior,

1 Mr. Alija Delimustafic, or Mr. Bajazid Jahic the chief of the Centre

2 for Public Security Services, neither of whom Mr. Radic had any control

3 over. That's what he told you, isn't it?

4 A. Sir, as far as I know, this is a statement for the press. This is

5 not a conversation in his office. This is a statement for the press. So

6 if Radic said something for the press, then that is probably so, for the

7 Banja Luka Glas newspaper.

8 Q. It's true, isn't it, that the head of the Ministry of interior,

9 which is the ministry that has authority over the police, was Alija

10 Delimustafic, a Bosniak?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, my objection is it depends upon,

12 obviously the answer, upon the date and this article is not dated. I have

13 a very firm belief that this is January 1992. I don't know if counsel

14 wants to stipulate to that it does mention General Vukovic, who was

15 General Talic's predecessor.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah. It would be January, 1992.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is the case, your objection is sustained for

18 sure.

19 MR. ACKERMAN:

20 Q. In January, 1992, it's true s it not that Alija Delimustafic was

21 Minister in Interior of Bosniak?

22 A. I really have to say that I assume that was so.

23 Q. It's true, is it not, that a Bosniak, Bajazid Jahic, was chief of

24 the Centre for Public Security Services?

25 A. I think he was deputy.

1 Q. In the course of that article, down toward the end, last paragraph

2 on page 3, --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- Mr. Radic indicates that you failed to keep your word about

5 something, and therefore he doesn't trust you any more. Was that the end

6 of your relationship with Mr. Radic or did it take up again from there?

7 A. As you know, that was not the end. There were meetings. Do I

8 need to comment on his statement?

9 Q. No, I don't think you do.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I have a great deal more material,

11 but I've basically committed to you that I would finish at this time, and

12 I think most of what the other material that I would cover is simply along

13 the same line, cumulative perhaps, and so I think it would be appropriate

14 that I conclude my cross-examination at this point. And I thank you for

15 your patience. Thank you Mr. Krzic.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you Mr. Ackerman. Do you have

17 re-examination?

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, I do, about ten minutes. I don't know, do you

19 want me to start it now or after the break? Whichever the Court would

20 like me to proceed at this time.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I would rather prefer to have a response from the

22 interpreters before I say yes or no.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters would prefer a

24 break.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Koumjian, we are going to have a short break.

1 We will resume -- it's half past 12.00. We will resume at ten to 1.00,

2 trying to make it a little bit shorter this time, and then you have your

3 ten minutes. In the meantime, we will discuss to see whether we are going

4 to put any questions. I personally do not have any questions to the

5 witness. And then we can discuss the few remaining things that we have.

6 Yes.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just for the Court's information, I did plan to

8 show a very short video of about two minutes and I have the transcript to

9 be distributed. I can distribute that during the break.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: To the witness or after the witness has finished?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: To the witness.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: To the witness, okay. Please have it prepared so

13 that we can start with it and not waste time when we resume the sitting.

14 Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, be seated. Mr. Ackerman, Ms. Korner, I

18 understand that the documents saga has been solved.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we have just been told that very kindly

20 by Mr. Ackerman's colleague as we all thought it was a mistake.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Like everyone else around here, they went off to

22 spend sometime in the Milosevic trial. They are back now.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Koumjian, how do you want to

24 proceed, with the video first or with questioning?

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: A few questions and I'll finish with the video.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Krzic, can you hear me?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, there will be a short re-examination of you by

4 the Prosecution. After that, there may be one or two questions from the

5 Chamber and then I think you can pack your things and go back to your

6 destination. Thank you.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

8 Q. Mr. Krzic, I'm referring, for counsel's benefit, to the document

9 that was marked DB24, but do you recall you were asked about some

10 statements made by Mr. Djuzel in a report or a statement to the State

11 Security Service? And that report was dated the 2nd of September, 1994.

12 Do you recall being questioned about that this morning?

13 A. Yes, that was at the end, I think.

14 Q. Do you know, Mr. Krzic, where Mr. Djuzel was on the 2nd of

15 September, 1994?

16 A. In Banja Luka.

17 Q. Do you know if he was free?

18 A. I don't know. I can't remember the exact date of his arrest, not

19 the second time he was arrested. I was in Banja Luka when he was arrested

20 the first time, but I would have to look. I would have to verify to see

21 when he was arrested for the first time.

22 Q. The answer would be, you do not know whether he was in the custody

23 of the State Security at the time he made that statement, correct?

24 A. I can't say that until I have a look at the documents, but

25 documents were shown to me when he was in prison.

1 Q. Thank you. Going on to DB30, you were asked about being charged

2 with espionage, along with Mr. Djuzel, and an amnesty being passed. Is

3 it correct that the amnesty was passed -- let me ask a question, excuse

4 me. Was the amnesty passed before or after the Dayton Accords?

5 A. It was after the Dayton Accords.

6 Q. By the way, do you know if Mr. Djuzel was convicted of a crime by

7 the authorities in Republika Srpska?

8 A. Yes. The military court convicted him of a crime, for a series of

9 crimes. I couldn't mention all of them, but one of them was that he was a

10 member of a spy group.

11 Q. Do you know what the possible punishment was for being a member of

12 a spy group or for espionage at the time Mr. Djuzel made his

13 statement on the 2nd of September, 1994? If you don't know, simply say

14 you don't know.

15 A. I know; the death penalty.

16 Q. Going back to the first day of Mr. Ackerman's cross-examination of

17 you, you were asked some questions about -- well, he read to you a

18 statement that Mr. Karadzic made at a SDS deputies meeting concerning

19 Mr. Brdjanin, and then asked you if that would change your view that

20 Karadzic and Brdjanin were close together or Brdjanin would follow

21 Karadzic, just to remind you of the context. And you indicated it did not

22 change your view and you gave your reasons. Later, you added, "And

23 Karadzic" -- you said you had forgot to mention, "Karadzic confirmed my

24 views." Can you explain what you meant by that statement, that Karadzic

25 later confirmed your views?

1 A. I read it very quickly, but I think that Karadzic said that he was

2 an extreme sort of person and that he was extremist in regard -- with

3 regard to other nationalities.

4 Q. Later in 1992, did Mr. Karadzic appoint Mr. Brdjanin to any

5 positions, to your knowledge?

6 A. Not a single appointment in the so-called republic, the Republika

7 Srpska, couldn't pass without the authorisation of Karadzic and I think

8 that he was also appointed as president of the Crisis Staff of the

9 autonomous region, and this was authorised by Karadzic.

10 Q. Later in 1992, was Mr. Brdjanin, to your knowledge, appointed to

11 any position on the republic level?

12 A. He was a deputy of the republican assembly. Sorry, I didn't

13 understand you. Do you mean later in 1993 or when?

14 Q. To your knowledge, in 1992, was Mr. Brdjanin appointed to any

15 position in the government of the Republika Srpska, at the republic level,

16 not at the regional level?

17 A. Yes. He was a minister in the government, as far as I know.

18 Q. After that appointment, did you continue to see him or have

19 knowledge of him being active in the Banja Luka area?

20 A. Yes. He was very active in the media of all kinds. This is what

21 was most accessible to us.

22 Q. You were asked by Mr. Ackerman about a statement contained in one

23 of the statements you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor wherein

24 you said, regarding Mr. Brdjanin, he was the right person to organise

25 ethnic cleansing camps and deportation. You were asked if you had any

1 proof and you said that was your opinion, but you have certain facts

2 behind it, nevertheless. My -- your exact answer is, "My personal opinion

3 is based on certain facts, nevertheless." What facts did you base your

4 opinion upon? The transcript that I have printed out from the LiveNote,

5 that's page 73 of the testimony on day 11, that's February 7th, line 19.

6 A. First of all, I base my conclusions on the public appearances of

7 Mr. Brdjanin, during which he was very explicit and stated that he was

8 against coexistence, the coexistence of various peoples and in which the

9 non-Serbs, especially the Bosniaks, in which he called them all sorts of

10 names, derogatory names, and he threatened the non-Serbian population in

11 his statements, and the Serbs who had moderate positions with regard to

12 multi-ethnic coexistence and assistance were also threatened. This is

13 what I base my conclusion on. And I also base it on the fact that he was

14 a member or a high ranking official of such well-known organisations and

15 institutions, such as the Crisis Staff or the government of the autonomous

16 region of the Bosnian Krajina and beyond. Furthermore, I base this

17 position on numerous testimonies given by Banja Luka people of Banja Luka

18 who had been expelled. I collected these -- I listened to such statements

19 throughout this various countries in Scandinavia and recently in Sarajevo,

20 too.

21 Q. In 1993, when you went to Zagreb, were you able in Zagreb to

22 listen or watch any media from Banja Luka?

23 A. Not from Banja Luka, because they weren't made in public, but

24 individuals would bring certain extracts from Glas. I received those.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Testimony about 1993, that's outside the scope of

1 the indictment, things that Mr. Brdjanin might have said in 1993, if

2 that's where this is going. I object.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, what do you have to say to that, Mr. Koumjian?

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, I'm going to move on to the video which does

5 come from a statement made in 1993, but the accused's intent is very much

6 at issue in this case and his state of mind. It also goes to statements

7 by the witness and the implied attacks upon the credibility of the witness

8 as far as his reports of statements he heard Mr. Brdjanin make in 1993 and

9 1993, which he testified to on direct and cross-examination.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'll also object to the playing of a video

11 from 1993 because that's also irrelevant to the charges in the

12 indictment. Mr. Brdjanin is not charged with anything during 1993 and it

13 should not be permitted.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Bad news, Mr. Ackerman. Your objection is

16 dismissed. The reason is very simple, that we cannot a priori decide that

17 what Mr. Brdjanin may have said in 1993, or even later, will not or could

18 not possibly throw a light on what may have happened in 1992 or what he

19 may have been involved in, in 1992. So we will first hear what evidence

20 is brought forward in regard and then, obviously, if it is definitely

21 material which is irrelevant, it will be struck off from the memory of the

22 Trial Chamber, if not from the records any way.

23 Yes, Mr. Koumjian, please do remember also, when we come to this

24 admissibility of evidence business, that this is a Trial Chamber made up

25 of professional judges and not lay jurors. So we are not easily impressed

1 with this or that.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour I'm ready to play the video. My only

3 question is I presume that this should receive a number. The video is

4 with the audio-visual people, but perhaps it should receive the next

5 Prosecution number in order for this particular segment of the video.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P463.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: And perhaps the English translation would be --

8 perhaps the video would be 463A, the English translation 463B and the

9 B/C/S transcript, 463C? Would that be a good idea? No?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I mean, go 463A for the English, 463B for the

11 Serbian and C for the -- because everything -- so far A and B has been A

12 English, B Serb Croat.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you are right, Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: That sounds like a great idea.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we proceed?

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, may the video be played now.

17 Q. Mr. Krzic, I'd ask you to direct your attention to the screen.

18 [Videotape played]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So far, we have a still picture.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Brothers and sisters, dear citizens

22 of Krajina and all other patriots attending this gathering. We must not

23 be tricked into believing we are voting for peace or war. We are voting

24 for the betrayal or the salvation of Republika Srpska. The leftists who

25 are offering us again to live together must know that the obligation of

1 the Serbs for the next 100 years is to wipe the shoes of this

2 non-Christian scum who ... this country of ours. Moreover, it is not true

3 that we do not know where our borders are. Our borders are from Benkovac

4 from Trebinje. Our borders are from the Hungarian border all the way to

5 Sokolac, with Belgrade, I hope, as its capital. We must tell the world

6 that no one has the right to proclaim those we defeated the victors

7 because this is the homeland of Tsar Dusan, Tsar Lazar, Karadjordje, and

8 the Serbian heroes of today. I am asking as many of you as possible, to

9 go to the referendum. And let me warn you, this referendum is an offer to

10 us to hand over 20 settlements, including 13 towns. It is an offer to us

11 to go back to Alija and Tudjman and to live with them. And I propose we

12 put up barbed wire and say that never again will our enemies swagger on

13 Krajina Square and attack us for the fifth or fourth time in this

14 century. The worst thing is that it is now occurred to some of them that

15 we should not have waged this war in the first place. As if it was us who

16 imposed this war. Now it has dawned on some of them that the NATO

17 alliance is dangerous. Do these gentlemen know that the lives of all of

18 us who are married and who have children are of much less value than the

19 lives of the young men lying in their graves? In their names, may I say

20 that everyone who betrays the Republika Srpska and the interests of the

21 Serbian people be damned. Cheers.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN:

23 Q. Mr. Krzic, in the video you just saw -- first of all, do you

24 recognise the speaker in that video?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Who was the speaker in the video?

2 A. Mr. Brdjanin.

3 Q. Did you recognise the location where Mr. Brdjanin was speaking?

4 A. I didn't pay much attention to that, but I think it is in the

5 centre of town, the terrace below the high-riser in the centre of town,

6 the skyscraper.

7 Q. In Banja Luka?

8 A. In Banja Luka, yes.

9 Q. Had you seen this video before, to your knowledge?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you understand Mr. Brdjanin to say, and I'm now referring to

12 page 4, the ERN number 01107360 in the English translation, the 7th line

13 down, the last two words of that line, "And I propose we put up barbed

14 wire, say that never again will our enemies swagger on Krajina square and

15 attack us for the fourth or fifth time in this century." Can you tell me

16 as a person from Banja Luka who lived there in 1992, how did you

17 understand these words, that I propose we put up barbed wire? And saying

18 that [Microphone not activated].

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone counsel.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN:

21 Q. And say that never again will our enemies swagger on Krajina

22 square.

23 A. I understand that in two ways. The formation of concentration

24 camps and, secondly, drastic ethnic cleansing.

25 Q. Could I ask you now to refer to the B/C/S transcript, page 3, and

1 that would be -- do you have that in front of you, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I'm particularly going to direct your attention, I'm going to

4 mark in red the fifth line down, that line appears on the English

5 translation, if I'm not correct, refers to the sentence in the English

6 translation of saying, this is on page -- the first page of the English

7 translation, ERN number 01107359 --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Koumjian, I don't think we have these two

9 documents that you are mentioning. Which ones? Okay.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN:

11 Q. And perhaps, Mr. Krzic, you can find in B/C/S the sentence I'm

12 going to read in English. The sentence in English is, "The leftists were

13 offering us again to live together, must know that the obligation of the

14 Serbs for the next 100 years is to wipe the shoes of this non-Christian

15 scum who," a word was not translated, "This country of ours."

16 A. What is the question?

17 Q. First of all, can you tell me, as a person who has lived in Banja

18 Luka during that time period, how did you understand this sentence,

19 referring to leftists who are offering us again to live together?

20 A. The leftists is a definition linked to the former communist

21 parties, but in those days it could be linked to all democratic political

22 or other forces. And in that context, to me, this means that for him,

23 leftists are all humanists, all real democrats, and normal people, if I

24 can put it that way. As for the second part of this sentence, it is

25 horrifying because, in my opinion, it says that non-Serbs will be exposed

1 to the worst possible kind of terror, a metaphor is used, by saying that

2 non-Serbs are dirty beings, that every Serb has the right to beat, as he

3 can hit a dirty dog in the street, that his sole responsibility is to

4 clean his shoes that have been dirtied in the process. So I understand

5 that as being the task of each Serb to take part in the extermination of

6 entire peoples.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Koumjian. Mr. Krzic, the Trial

9 Chamber has a few questions to put to you.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE JANU: My question was partly answered in re-examination,

12 but any way, Mr. Krzic, could you tell me the time, I mean year and month,

13 of the trial in absentia for espionage, if you remember. I think you

14 remember.

15 A. I think it was the end of 1994. Please don't ask me to be too

16 precise. But any way, it was the end of 1994. Yes. That was when the

17 proceedings were conducted. But the arrest, I'm afraid at this moment, I

18 can't recollect. I would have to look it up in my notes, of course. I

19 took great care about these things but just now I can't remember the

20 birthdays of my children, but I do know the year.

21 JUDGE JANU: Thank you. That's okay. Thank you. That's enough.

22 JUDGE TAYA: My first series of questions concern to transcript

23 pages from 1615 to 1621. On Wednesday of last week, in summary, you

24 testified that Bosnian Muslims were able to declare as Muslims under the

25 1974 constitution, but ethnic name based on religion affiliation is not

1 relevant. The term Bosniak is traditionally accepted term even from

2 Austro-Hungarian times. At the time of 1974 constitution, the Bosniaks

3 were neither consulted through referendum, nor, adequately represented

4 through deputies; is that correct?

5 A. The Muslims were not consulted as to whether they wanted the name

6 Muslim or some other name, that is true. Secondly, the Muslims came to

7 be called Muslims and were recognised as such much earlier. I said in

8 Mrkonjic, during the session of Zavno-BiH, which was a de facto and de

9 jure recognition of them.

10 JUDGE TAYA: According to your understanding, not only you but

11 almost all Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina have had their aspiration to be

12 called Bosniaks from long before?

13 A. I said that in our tradition and in our history, earlier history,

14 before Yugoslavia was formed, Muslims were treated as Bosniaks. Of

15 course, it is hard to convey any precise feelings of a broad spectrum

16 because there were no inquiries conducted into this matter so that I can

17 only convey my personal opinion. I must admit that we came used to be

18 calling Muslims and we preferred that name, though obviously it was linked

19 exclusively to our religion. But we preferred to be called that than

20 having to decide -- opt to be either Serbs or Croats. So that I am not

21 able to answer your question with certainty except by saying what my own

22 personal opinion is.

23 JUDGE TAYA: But such an aspiration of Muslims were well known or

24 not well known amongst Serbs and Croats?

25 A. They were known. There were so many intellectuals at the state

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1 level from Bosnia-Herzegovina, even before that elucidated our ethnic

2 ethnological and other affiliations through various studies and research

3 work. And there are well-known papers by some prominent intellectuals of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina along those lines. So I would prefer to refer to them

5 than to my personal opinion because their studies were based on exact

6 information and data.

7 JUDGE TAYA: In your first statement, page 4, you said, "We

8 Bosniaks had the first possibility to express our nationality for 70

9 years." As to the term "Bosniaks," you expected some negative reaction

10 from Serbs or Croats?

11 A. In those days, that is after the democratic changes, as we called

12 them, we did not expect any opposition among the people to such a name,

13 because, after all, that name was well known. However, one could expect

14 certain political circles, and I'm still talking about the period prior to

15 the elections, that is, political circles in communist Yugoslavia might

16 try to deny this.

17 JUDGE TAYA: In your statement dated 23rd August, 1995, that is

18 your first statement, on page 5, at almost the end of the third paragraph

19 of English version, you said, "I attended the November, 1991, SDA congress

20 in Sarajevo, where I gave a speech which was well-received. The people in

21 Sarajevo did not really believe me when I warned them of what could

22 happen." Then my first question is: What was the gist of your speech at

23 that occasion? Can you remember the content of your speech at that time?

24 A. I can remember in broad lines, of course. I wanted to warn that

25 in Banja Luka a wave of greater Serbian nationalism had started to spread,

1 which was still rather mild but which could be felt, particularly in the

2 official institutions and at the university, and that was also one of the

3 reasons why my daughter had to go to Sarajevo to study, where I had to

4 rent a room for her and pay for it, which meant additional expenses,

5 simply to avoid the psychological pressure that already existed at the

6 university in Banja Luka.

7 JUDGE TAYA: In your statement dated February 15th, 2001, that is

8 your third statement, on page 2 of the English version, you mentioned you

9 had a code name. Approximately when you thought about using a code name?

10 A. I wrote in my book the exact date when I started to use it, and,

11 Your Honour, it's really difficult for me to remember the date without

12 looking it up in the book, but I can do that. I gave myself this code

13 name in the naive belief that this might save me should I be taken to

14 court. However, in real terms, that was extremely naive on my part.

15 JUDGE TAYA: I would like to know exactly when you began to use

16 your code name.

17 A. Madam, I'd really have to look that up in the book. I think it

18 was in 1993, but I'd really have to look it up. The exact date is given

19 in my book, and I stand by that. The Prosecutor, I think, can provide

20 that date subsequently, and I abide by what I said in the book.

21 JUDGE TAYA: Not in 1992?

22 A. I don't think so. I think it was much later. I really can't

23 remember, because it wasn't a decision taken. It was an idea that I had,

24 and it is actually the name of the wife of my associate in the United

25 States of America who received messages, Hamdija Todorovac.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Krzic. I think that brings to an end

2 your evidence.

3 Yes, Mr. Koumjian?

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: I remember the Court's admonition quite a while

5 ago, last week, about the exhibits and I should be sure to move those into

6 evidence while he's still here.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: So I at this time move into evidence the exhibits

9 that were shown to him and that would be up to Exhibit 463 that was shown

10 today.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would do the same with the Defence

12 exhibits that were presented. I don't know the full range of numbers. I

13 can provide that, but I think the recommendation already has them.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you referring, because actually we were

15 discussing that during the break, and we were coming back to you on this,

16 are you intending to exhibit even those documents which you did not put

17 questions to Mr. Krzic?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I would like to, because --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: On what basis?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: If I'd had time I would have asked him.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: For the present moment you might require them later

22 on for some other witness. But at the present moment, we can only look at

23 these documents as documents, some of them, that have not been made use

24 of.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine. The Prosecution has a lot of

1 documents that are in the record that have not been made use of either,

2 that have already been admitted. So I don't see any reason why mine can't

3 be admitted under the same circumstances. And if I refer to them later,

4 and you find they have some weight, you can give them weight; if I don't,

5 whatever. You're professional judges. You can do whatever you want

6 with them.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you live with that, Ms. Korner?

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think we probably can. All I was

9 concerned about is I don't think either of us have checked what the other

10 documents were. Could we perhaps -- I take Mr. Ackerman's point that we

11 are going to move into evidence perhaps on Monday a lot of documents. Why

12 do I say move into evidence --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We could live with that because later on when we

14 start sifting the wheat from the chaff we are going to pay attention as to

15 what was made use of and what was not made use of, and we are certainly

16 not the type of judges that we will just select those documents that were

17 not made use of and come back to you to enlighten us further.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think we can move ahead along those lines, have

20 them admitted and then --

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we were trying to find a way of trying to make

23 life easier for you and for us, but more or less we are in agreement that

24 it is perhaps more practical to go ahead for the moment as has been

25 suggested; in other words, admit all these documents as exhibits, and we

1 may come back to this system later on if need be. But for the time being

2 we can go ahead like that.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there is one matter. Despite our best

4 efforts, as Your Honour will hear when we go through the whole Banja Luka

5 documents, we have managed to mark two exhibits twice again; in other

6 words, we pre-marked the Banja Luka documents. But two of them, Mr. Krzic

7 referred to and they were given a different number. And I think the

8 simplest thing, because it's on the index, if Your Honour goes to -- does

9 Your Honour have a copy of the index?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I had it --

11 MS. KORNER: Can I deal -- Your Honour --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't you do it ... [Microphone not

13 activated] ... And then report it back to.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I was suggesting that you do this in an informal way

16 and then refer the agreement or whatever it is to Madam Registrar who will

17 just regulate the numbering of the documents for us in due course. I mean

18 we are not going to -- we are not concentrating now on the different

19 numbers. That will -- we will come to that at a later stage if and when

20 we come to that.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes. All I was going to suggest was

22 that you may want to mark your schedules accordingly. But I have a

23 feeling we do not have any time today to deal with the documents, so

24 perhaps I can deal with it on Monday.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Okay. In the meantime, you are exhibiting --

1 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honours, we are exhibiting the

2 documents --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, let's finish that first.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes, I think we gave Your Honours the numbers, and I

5 think Your Honours agreed you would admit them.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And the same applies to you, Mr. Ackerman. I assume

7 that you are keeping or that the Registry is keeping the same DB sequence

8 of numbers that is shown on the documents, no?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I believe that's correct, that's what we are trying

10 to do. And I just want to make sure that we are not going to remove a

11 document from evidence because it has a duplicate somewhere else in

12 evidence.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, no, definitely not, no.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: It has been referred to by a number in the

15 transcript and it has to stay there.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not what the Trial Chamber understood. In

17 any case, just to make things clear to you, the admission of these

18 documents as exhibits does not mean anything beyond the fact that they are

19 being admitted as exhibits for the time being. We could revisit some of

20 these documents and send them back to you later on, if we think they are

21 not relevant and/or have no probative value or, on the face of them, they

22 are definitely unacceptable as exhibits because of one reason or another.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think I understand what Your Honour means.

24 All I don't want because I've been watching it happen in another court is

25 the confusion of documents marked exhibit and then with a stroke ID and

1 nobody seems to know.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. In real fact I again stress the point,

3 Ms. Korner, that we are dealing with professional judges, and I mean,

4 having this document in the records or not having it, and not look at it

5 or ignore it, because of its content, or not having it at all, doesn't

6 really make much difference. I mean, at the end of the day, our job is to

7 give to each document the attention that it deserves.

8 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour will find, as with all these

9 types of cases, that both Defence and Prosecution by the end of the day

10 will have reduced the number of documents that we are going to ask to you

11 look at in full.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Mr. Krzic is still here, but I assume

14 because of the next case and because I know Your Honour's colleagues are

15 in another trial this afternoon, we will be rising at a quarter to.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be rising in two minutes' time, and I'm

17 afraid, despite all my -- Mr. Krzic, I think I ought, on behalf of the

18 Trial Chamber, to thank you again for your patience, for your good manners

19 and for all the information that you were kind enough to give to this

20 Trial Chamber. Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours. It

22 was a honour to be a witness here before you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, then, before Your Honours rise -- I'll

1 just wait while Mr. Krzic leaves the court.

2 Your Honours, it's just about the timetable next week. We are not

3 sitting tomorrow because I think it's court maintenance or something

4 equally exciting, and next week is only a four-day week, again because of

5 the holiday. Your Honours, what I suggest is on Monday morning, before we

6 call evidence, we deal with the various outstanding administrative

7 matters. I'll have Mr. Inayat here in case it's necessary. We have only

8 for next week two witnesses. Does Your Honour have the list?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I have the list. [Microphone not activated].

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I was just -- yeah, I have a list. I suppose the

12 next one is 7.87.

13 MS. KORNER: It is. And that, Your Honour, I think may assist

14 Judge Janu. He's one of the people who was actually arrested so he will

15 be able to give chapter and verse about all this.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We were handed the transcript of his statement last

17 week, at some point last week. I've gone through it. It's relatively two

18 short statements.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't anticipate this witness to last more than a

21 day and a half.

22 MS. KORNER: We've given him -- we thought he probably wouldn't

23 last more than the Monday itself.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I see.

25 MS. KORNER: But obviously that's why I'm asking. The next

1 witness, number 5 on the list, 7.168, by our estimation, is a more lengthy

2 one and he's going to deal with a number of documents. I don't know

3 whether either of my learned friends can assist as to whether he will in

4 fact take the next three -- he will certainly be the whole of Tuesday in

5 chief. I don't know whether either Mr. Ackerman or Madam Fauveau are able

6 to assist.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. Are you in a position to enlighten us

8 on this?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I think Ms. Korner is correct. We will need more

10 than two witnesses next week. I think that will take up the whole four

11 days.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If we take an hour Monday morning to thrash the

13 procedural matters that we have pending, maybe even more, I don't know.

14 That leaves us Monday, Tuesday. Yeah, I think it would be safer to stick

15 to two witnesses and then we'll see as we go along.

16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm grateful, because in fact it

17 would have caused us some problems.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: This witness in particular, the statements have just

19 been handed down to us an hour ago, and I see that half is in B/C/S and

20 half is in English. But they will be read by us in the course of the

21 weekend, during the weekend, and more or less we would be in a better

22 position to make an assessment. But I take your word that more or less we

23 would be safe if we base our schedule or our agenda for next week on two

24 witnesses. I think that should be a fair assessment.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just very quickly, there is one matter.

1 I don't know whether Your Honours can deal with it. It's simply because

2 it involves contacting the witness. Your Honours gave leave for one

3 witness with some amendments to his statement that -- to be put in through

4 Rule 92. There was discussion at the Status Conference which was never

5 resolved, the informal conference, which was never resolved, really, about

6 how they are going to be treated if they want protective measures. This

7 gentleman has actually requested that his name not be revealed to the

8 public, and we'd have to put in a motion obviously to deal with that.

9 But if -- can we just as a general principle, unless there is any

10 objection, can we take it that if protective measures are requested, then

11 the statement itself, once tendered into evidence, would remain under seal

12 until information which might reveal his identity had been redacted from

13 it?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you say to that, Mr. Ackerman?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no problem with that at all.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ms. Fauveau?

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems

18 quite evident to me. It's no problem.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, I think we can -- in the notes that I have,

20 it says, "The Trial Chamber needs to agree on a system for dealing with

21 this. It may be that when the Prosecution submits a statement, it can

22 make a request for protective measures, of course as is necessary. Any

23 approved protective measures could then be put in place prior to the

24 statement being marked as an exhibit." I think we can move along those

25 lines, as you have suggested. I see no danger. Rather it's almost an

1 over-precaution. So I would go along with that without any hesitation.

2 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: There being so objections or reservations on the

4 part of the Defence. So I think we can end our labours for the week.

5 Mr. Brdjanin and General Talic, we are not having a sitting

6 tomorrow because maybe you've been informed already, it's a special day

7 which the Tribunal here dedicates to some maintenance work, and so we will

8 not be able to make use of the courtrooms.

9 We will meet again, reconvene on Monday, at 9.00 in the morning.

10 I'm not quite sure whether it's still in this courtroom. I think it is in

11 Courtroom III.

12 So have a nice weekend, and see you all on Monday. Thank you.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m., to

14 be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of January,

15 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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