1 Wednesday, 27 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours. This is case

8 number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Brdjanin and Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Brdjanin. Can you hear me in a

10 language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your

12 Honours. Yes, I can. I can hear you and understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. General Talic, can

14 you hear me in a language that you can understand?

15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

16 Yes, I can hear you in a language I understand.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, too. You may sit down, too,

18 thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution?

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner for the Prosecution, also

20 Denise Gustin, who is temporarily absent from court.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you. Appearances for

22 Mr. Brdjanin?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm John Ackerman. I appear with

24 Milka Maglov co-counsel and Tania Radosavljevic, legal assistant.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Appearances for General

1 Talic?

2 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] I am Xavier de Roux attorney

3 assisted by my co-counsel, Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic, and Fabien Masson.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci and good morning. Thank you. I think we can

5 proceed. Yes, Ms. Korner? I thought we could proceed.

6 MS. KORNER: We can in fact, Your Honour, but may I just raise two

7 administrative matters before the witness comes in? Your Honour it's very

8 difficult to estimate, as Your Honour has seen, witness's length, but in

9 theory we may have two days in the week before we break for Easter left

10 where witnesses will be finished. Your Honour, I am reluctant to bring

11 witnesses relating to the Sanski Most municipality just before Easter, in

12 case we don't get there, and what I was hoping to suggest, with the

13 concurrence of Defence counsel is that if there is any time left over, it

14 seems to me that one of the exercises that will have to be done is that we

15 go through the documents in the Banja Luka binders which have not at the

16 moment been specifically referred to by any witnesses so that an at least

17 Your Honours have seen what's in there. Later on other witnesses will be

18 dealing with them, but it's very difficult to estimate when, and if one

19 wants to look at a municipality as a whole, it seems to me that's an

20 exercise however tedious that will have to be gone through. And,

21 therefore, I would ask if there is time available, we do it at that stage

22 rather than getting Sanski Most witnesses. Your, Honour that's the first

23 matter.

24 The second matter is in relation to the matter we discussed

25 yesterday, that of the journalist. Both myself and Mr. Ackerman

1 independently have had an opportunity to speak to the journalist who

2 actually did the interpreting. For the moment, can I say this to Your

3 Honour: We are still in discussions about what's going to happen. There

4 is still, however, the matter outstanding of the witness summons that was

5 issued for Mr. Randall and which is returnable on Monday or potentially

6 Wednesday. I would simply ask Your Honours to say for the moment that

7 that witness summons can, as it were, remain in abeyance until we have had

8 a further chance to see whether we can sort this matter out.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. Mr. Ackerman?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I really have nothing to add to what

11 Ms. Korner said about that, about either of those things. I do have

12 another separate matter.

13 There is a document which I have marked DB46A and 46B, Your

14 Honours. It -- you won't have it. It is in reference to the Prosecutor's

15 Exhibit 25A and B, which is the Variant A/B document that was the subject

16 of discussion earlier in the case. This document was apparently handed to

17 me by the Prosecutor after we had had the discussions regarding the

18 Variant A/B document and I didn't discover that that had happened until

19 yesterday so I'm bringing it to you at the first opportunity. I think I

20 want to just offer it into evidence for whatever light it may throw and

21 assist with regard to both the authenticity and the weight of that Variant

22 A/B document. I will tell you just very briefly that as I understand it,

23 this is a letter that was generated as a result of an inquiry from the

24 Office of the Prosecutor regarding that particular document, which is 25,

25 and the reply from the SDS is that they have -- that investigation has

1 been carried out apparently, and that there never was any document

2 instructing the organisation and activation of the Serb people of BiH that

3 came from the SDS. They say they were informed that those instructions

4 were given by retired officers of the former JNA, which I don't know what

5 that means, but in any event I'd like to offer this as an exhibit for

6 whatever it might be worth.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour may recall that we never actually

8 had the discussion about variant or the submissions because the Defence

9 withdrew their objections. Now, I'm entirely -- Mr. Ackerman is

10 incorrect. At the time when we gave the documents in respect of this

11 discussion to the Defence, I was wholly unaware that the particular letter

12 existed. It's no excuse. It's simply, as Your Honour may appreciate,

13 there are a number of teams working in this office and occasionally

14 communication does break down. However, if it is now to be suggested that

15 there is still going to be a submission that the Variant A and B document

16 is not authentic, was not issued, as we suggest, by the SDS, then we will

17 have to reopen the whole matter because it's an important matter. As I

18 say, we were unaware of this letter. We do not accept -- may I say, a

19 request was sent to the Republika Srpska asking for the distribution list

20 of the document, and what we received was this letter saying nothing to do

21 with them. We do not accept that for one moment. And Your Honour, there

22 is ample evidence we will be suggesting.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I was not expecting you to accept it.

24 MS. KORNER: Can I put it this way? It came as somewhat of a

25 surprise to me that the letter had in fact been written given we were

1 aware that the SDS was very unhappy about that this document. So but

2 nonetheless we say that there is ample other evidence which we would wish

3 to call before Your Honour to show that this is a genuine document so

4 therefore, I have no objections to Mr. Ackerman putting it in, but if the

5 suggestion is still from the Defence that this is not an authentic

6 document, then I would wish to reopen the argument.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's close this parenthesis on this

8 particular document. Do you have anything else to add in regard?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Just very briefly. Ms. Korner just told us that

10 she was aware that the SDS was very unhappy about this document. I wonder

11 if there is additional correspondence that bears on this matter that would

12 support that, that we should also be given. I mean do they have a letter

13 from the SDS saying they are very unhappy about this document or anything

14 of that nature? I haven't -- that hasn't been part of the evidence in the

15 case. And I think it's important that we know where that comes from.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Maitre de Roux? Anything you may have to say

17 with regard to the point -- two points raised by Ms. Korner and the point

18 raised by Mr. Ackerman?

19 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] I have nothing to add to what has

20 been said by Mr. Ackerman.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Maitre de Roux. So I take it the

22 position is as follows: You are exhibiting this particular document,

23 Mr. Ackerman, as D46 -- DB.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: DB46A and B.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: DB46A and B, so that's number one.

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, the question hasn't been

2 answered. Is it still disputed by the Defence that this is not an

3 authentic document that was issued by the main board of the SDS on or

4 about the 19th of December?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I think it is redisputed at this point, Your

6 Honour. I think this sheds light on the issue and I understand that the

7 issue is still being debated in the Bosanski Samac case and all I can tell

8 you is that what I've heard is that that Trial Chamber has some concern

9 about the effect of this particular bit of correspondence so I think the

10 matter does have to be raised again. I'm not sure it has to be raised

11 now, but I think at some point in this trial I will ask you to reconsider

12 the --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understood you anyway. So if I were

14 you, Ms. Korner, assume that to an extent at least it is being reopened.

15 Remembering also, Mr. Ackerman, that when you at a certain point in time

16 withdrew your objection regarding that or the authenticity of that

17 document, you withdrew it because of the signatures and written words,

18 handwritten words, that there were on the document that was exhibited. I

19 remember you discussing it with your colleague and it was after you

20 noticed that there were some handwritten notes and some signatures on that

21 document that you accepted the authenticity. However, I do concede that

22 given the existence of this new document, which sheds a certain -- casts a

23 certain measure of possible doubt, we will have the matter reopened at

24 whichever point you choose. I will leave it up to you. Provided you

25 exchange information beforehand so that one doesn't surprise the other.

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1 In other words, if you intend to reopen it at any given time please tell

2 Ms. Korner or Mr. Cayley or whoever will be in charge of that particular

3 part so that they will be prepared with the necessary evidence, if

4 necessary. Okay?

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we will find a convenient time to deal

6 with the matter.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So -- and with regard to any possible

8 examination or review of the remaining documents in the Banja Luka files,

9 which could be done the last two days before we stop for our Easter break,

10 would you live with that, Mr. Ackerman?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I -- well, yeah. My intention, Your Honour, is to

12 depart The Hague on the 22nd of March.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That was my intention, too.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: And so --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: At the morning because the flight on the 22nd is

16 very late at night.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm leaving in the morning, about 10.40 in the

18 morning, I think. If you're sitting here reading documents, I don't think

19 it would be totally necessary that I sit here and listen to that so I

20 might ask your permission to depart if Ms. Korner is going to be reading

21 documents to you. I fail to see that there is much value in her reading

22 you the documents since I think you're totally capable of reading them

23 yourselves but that's up to you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you didn't mean or intend to stay or expect

25 us three to stay listening to you while you read all those documents. I

1 hope not.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was -- I tell you -- first of all, we

3 are not sitting the 22nd because it's a court maintenance day so we stop

4 on the 21st. Your Honour, I was. I appreciate it, of course, is

5 different when one is dealing with professional judges rather than a jury,

6 but nonetheless, the temptation when one has binders of documents is that

7 one reads very quickly, but if Your Honours would prefer simply to sit and

8 read through the documents yourselves, then I'm quite content. It's

9 merely an exercise to get us all to look at the documents.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: In my jurisdiction, Ms. Korner, usually when a

11 lawyer stands up and starts reading either from previous case law or from

12 an author or a book or whatever, we just ask for the reference and we

13 always say, "The Court knows how to read." Any way, I personally -- I

14 think -- let's give us time to discuss it so that I discuss it with the

15 other two judges and then we come back to you, because this is something

16 that I have not discussed as yet. I mean, I personally -- my preference

17 would be to prefer you to indicate which of those documents you are

18 relying more than others. I think it's more important for us to sift the

19 wheat from the chaff and rather than have to read all the documents if you

20 yourself believe that some are more important than others.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we have done a major sifting exercise

22 already, but I leave it to Your Honours to decide and then if Your Honours

23 decide that you would prefer to simply have a list, as it were, of

24 documents, and read them yourselves, then of course, we will comply, but

25 effectively our view would be that we've already selected from the

1 hundreds of thousands of documents the ones that we do think are important

2 and they are in these binders. However, we'll leave it with Your Honours.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We will come back to you on this. Yes,

4 Maitre de Roux? I see you on edge.

5 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that if we

6 need to read the documents that are already in the record, this is of

7 little interest, because each of us can read them. If on the other hand,

8 the Prosecution believes that some of the documents present difficulties

9 of interpretation and the Prosecution has a certain interpretation of

10 certain documents, then we need to discuss it. But if it is simply taking

11 into consideration, becoming familiarised with documents and reading those

12 documents, I think that is not necessary.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we will discuss it amongst ourselves and

14 then we will tell you later what we think, because it may well be that

15 there may be some documents which would you like to furnish explanations

16 or not just read but -- I don't know. We will discuss it.

17 MS. KORNER: Certainly, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think we can call in the witness.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Dzonlic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The usher will give you once more the same document

23 you saw yesterday, containing the statement that you read out, and you are

24 kindly asked to read it out, to make that statement again in court this

25 morning before you proceed.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 WITNESS: AMIR DZONLIC [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So you may sit down.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, you may continue with your

8 examination-in-chief.

9 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

10 Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

11 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, we were talking yesterday about your committee which

12 was dealing with effectively people who were detained and whether or not

13 the Geneva Conventions were being complied with. You remember that?

14 A. [In English] Translate in French, maybe. I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Interpreters, please, apparently the witness is

16 receiving interpretation in French.

17 MS. KORNER: It was the button, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. It was the button. All right.

19 MS. KORNER: I'll repeat the question or has it being translated

20 into English now?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: In B/C/S, I hope.

22 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, in the Bosnia language.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was in French. I was

24 getting the interpretation into French, but now it's okay.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So you may proceed and I would suggest that you put

1 the question again, please, or --

2 MS. KORNER: It wasn't really a question.

3 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, this morning I want to take up where we left off

4 yesterday, namely your attempts to visit camps. You told us that you were

5 unable to arrange a visit to any of the camps in Prijedor; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. You also mentioned a camp named Manjaca. Were you able to visit

9 that camp?

10 A. We were able to visit the Manjaca camp and we actually visited it.

11 Q. I want to ask you how you were able to make arrangements. When

12 did you first hear about Manjaca, roughly?

13 A. I heard about the Manjaca camp roughly towards the end of the

14 month of April, 1992. But anyway, I know that in Manjaca, there is a

15 military exercise area. Earlier on, while the former JNA existed, and

16 even I myself as a student, spent 15 days in that military training

17 grounds for exercises, military training, and towards the end of April,

18 1992, we learnt that there was a military camp at Manjaca.

19 Q. You told us that you were able to arrange to visit the camp. Who

20 did you first speak to about going to the camp?

21 A. We -- or rather I, Mr. Adil Medic, Professor Bajric, and Imam

22 Alija Halilovic, we went to the former building of the Yugoslav People's

23 Army, that is the military command in the town of Banja Luka, where the

24 1st Krajina Corps was headquartered.

25 Q. Pause there for a moment. You say the former JNA building. By

1 the time you visited that building, had it become the 1st Krajina Corps,

2 the Banja Luka Corps, or was it still the 5th Corps of the JNA?

3 A. There were two buildings there. One was called the JNA Club, and

4 next to it was another building where the command was. I know that a part

5 of the Yugoslav People's Army was still there because roughly about that

6 time, the Serb authorities in Banja Luka started setting up certain

7 judicial military institutions such as the attorney, the military

8 prosecutor's office, the military courts, and there were officers of the

9 Yugoslav People's Army and the command of the Krajina Corps of the Banja

10 Luka Serb army.

11 Q. I'm sorry, that was -- I think you misunderstood slightly. I

12 didn't want to interrupt you, Mr. Dzonlic. By the time you paid a visit,

13 had the 5th Corps of the JNA, which was the Banja Luka Corps, been

14 transferred to the Bosnian Serb Army, the VRS, and was now called the 1st

15 Corps? In other words, had the change taken place?

16 A. I think the transformation had taken place because they said then

17 that it was the 1st Krajina Corps.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, you went to the building with the people that

19 you've mentioned. Had you made an appointment in advance?

20 A. We didn't make an appointment in advance. We just there went

21 directly.

22 Q. Were you able to speak on that first occasion to any senior

23 officer?

24 A. On that first occasion, when we arrived, we just registered with

25 the porter, the porter's office, which was to the left of the entrance to

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1 the officer on duty. We said we were from Merhamet, we introduced

2 ourselves and said that we would like to see the corps commander. He

3 asked us what about and we said in connection with the Manjaca camp.

4 However, on that occasion, we were unable to see the commander or his

5 deputies or heads of departments. We were told to come back a couple of

6 days later. So we went back.

7 Q. When you went back, do you know who you spoke to, the name of the

8 officer?

9 A. As far as I can remember now, a name that was mentioned was

10 Stevilovic.

11 Q. Do you know what position Stevilovic held within the 1st Krajina

12 Corps?

13 A. I think he was head of security.

14 Q. Now, on that second occasion, was there anybody with him or was he

15 on his own, that is Stevilovic?

16 A. I cannot really say with precision, whether this was the second

17 time that we went there or maybe the third, because we went there several

18 times on a number of occasions, the four -- sometimes the four of us,

19 sometimes the three of us or two of us, requesting to talk to somebody in

20 a position of responsibility, whether this was the second, the third or

21 fourth time, I cannot tell you. But on one of those instances, when we

22 arrived, he introduced himself as Stevilovic.

23 Q. Now, did you seek the assistance of anybody outside the military

24 to arrange to speak to a senior officer?

25 A. When we found out about the existence of the camp in Manjaca, we

1 did seek for someone. I personally went to the International Red Cross to

2 see Mr. Beat who was responsible for Banja Luka municipality and I

3 informed him of my information on the existence of the camp. I told him

4 that as the International Red Cross, they were responsible to act on the

5 basis of the information to take certain measures which were in accordance

6 with their responsibilities and to go to the military command and, if

7 possible, to make this possible for us too, to go there. And I think that

8 I also went to see representatives of the UNHCR.

9 Q. Other than international organisations, did you speak to anybody

10 in authority in Banja Luka itself?

11 A. We also went to the president of the municipality of Banja Luka,

12 Mr. Predrag Radic, and we also informed him of these facts and he said

13 that we should go to that command, since it was a military command, and

14 we had to contact the command directly.

15 Q. You've told us that Mr. Brdjanin was the president of the ARK

16 Crisis Staff. Did you approach him or seek to approach him?

17 A. As far as I can remember, no, we didn't.

18 Q. Was there any reason why you didn't seek to approach him?

19 A. I don't know. I couldn't really provide any clarifications on

20 this matter. We didn't go to see him because we found out that that was a

21 matter of military authority, it was under the army, and for this reason

22 we went to the military command.

23 Q. Right. Did there come a time after however many visits it was,

24 where you were able to speak to a senior officer?

25 A. On one occasion, we managed to enter the building of the command,

1 we were met by an officer. I think his name was Stevilovic.

2 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. You told us about a meeting with

3 Mr. Stevilovic. Were you able to meet with anyone more senior than him?

4 A. On one occasion, General Talic was also present, and he said that

5 his chief of security, Stevilovic, a dark officer was by his side, and a

6 grey man with glasses was there too. I later recognised him as a

7 commander of the camp. He said that they were responsible for the camp

8 and that with regard to the camp, we would solve all issues with them.

9 Q. Did General Talic tell you anything about Manjaca?

10 A. He only said that it was a military camp and that with regard to

11 the camp, we would address matters with the -- we would solve the issues

12 with his officers who were responsible for the camp.

13 Q. He told you it was a military camp. Did he tell you under which

14 arm of the military this camp came? In other words, which particular

15 corps?

16 A. No, he didn't. Another officer said that it was a military camp

17 under the 1st Krajina Corps and that all the prisoners, all the detainees,

18 were prisoners of war and that they were being treated in accordance with

19 the Geneva Conventions.

20 Q. When that other officer told you that, was General Talic present?

21 A. No, he wasn't present.

22 Q. How long was -- roughly how long a conversation did you have with

23 General Talic?

24 A. It was short. He only came and he said -- well, maybe it was

25 three to five minutes.

1 Q. To whom did you explain why you had come to the corps command, in

2 full?

3 A. We explained this to the officers. I think that the commander of

4 the camp was present, his name was Popovic. The officer for security was

5 there, who said that his name was Stevilovic. A dark officer was there.

6 They called him "captain."

7 Q. What did you tell these officers that you wanted to do?

8 A. We told them that we had heard about the existence of this camp

9 and we said that we wanted to help people in the camp, and that we wanted

10 to give them food and medicine because we had heard that there were quite

11 a few sick people and that they didn't have enough food and that if it was

12 possible that they should authorise us to visit this camp and to send them

13 food, medicine, clothes.

14 Q. Did Popovic or any of the other officers tell you anything about

15 the conditions in the camp when you explained what you wanted to do?

16 A. They were very decisive. As I said earlier on, they said that,

17 "This was a camp under the 1st Krajina Corps, that the prisoners were

18 prisoners of war, and that they were being treated in accordance with the

19 Geneva Conventions." They also said that there were sick people there and

20 that they didn't have enough food.

21 Q. Did they give you an explanation, any sort of explanation, as to

22 why the prisoners were not getting enough food?

23 A. He just said that they didn't have enough food.

24 Q. Now, was it agreed at that meeting that you could visit the camp

25 or did that come at a later stage?

1 A. We weren't told that we would be authorised to enter the camp

2 then, but they said that we should come again in a few days' time and that

3 they would consider the matter.

4 Q. And so did you return?

5 A. I returned twice perhaps after that, and I was interested in

6 finding out whether we had received authorisation, but we didn't receive

7 an answer, and I think that at the time some other person was

8 communicating with us. He introduced himself as Bogilovic. He was there

9 instead of Mr. Stevilovic. He said he was the one responsible for contact

10 with us. On two or three occasions I went to the command, perhaps every

11 other day or every third day. However, after a certain time, I can't

12 remember exactly whether it was ten days or 20 days, Mr. Adil Medic came

13 to our office and he said that we had been authorised to visit the Manjaca

14 camp and that we should prepare our papers, copies of our identity cards,

15 in order to have them obtain a permission to enter and we had to specify

16 the time and the day of departure, when we would go to Manjaca.

17 Q. All right. Just before we come to Manjaca itself, your visit, can

18 you remember, did you meet at any stage, any other officers whose name you

19 can remember in the corps command?

20 A. At the moment, I can't remember. I met quite a few people there,

21 quite a few officers, but I can't remember right now.

22 Q. You told us that you spoke to an officer about visiting -- I'm

23 sorry, I'm not sure you did. Did you ever speak to a military officer

24 about visiting the Prijedor camps?

25 A. No, I didn't.

1 Q. All right. Can we deal with the visit, please, that you made to

2 Manjaca? I don't think there is any dispute about these matters, who you

3 went with. You went there, I think, with the Imam Halilovic, Professor

4 Bajric and Mr. Medic; is that right?

5 A. The four of us went there and I have just remembered this name,

6 another man went with us, Makic, Ibrahim went with us. He provided his

7 red Kombi, he had a red Kombi, and we went there in this red Kombi, and

8 the four of us.

9 Q. Now, I think you were escorted to the camp by two military jeeps;

10 is that right? In fact, three in all?

11 A. I think that there were two military jeeps in front of us. And

12 there was another military vehicle behind us as an escort and we went to

13 that command, from that command maybe at about 9.00 in the morning, 10.00.

14 Q. Now, when you arrived at the camp, did you see that there was a

15 fence surrounding it?

16 A. Yes. I saw that the camp was entirely surrounded by a wire fence

17 and it had pillars and the pillars -- in between the pillars there was

18 barbed wire.

19 Q. Were there any guards at the camp?

20 A. There were guards, maybe at intervals of 50 metres. There was a

21 guard who had a dog with him too.

22 Q. Once you got inside the perimeter, did you see another fence?

23 A. Inside the camp, there was, I could -- so to speak, another camp.

24 There were three stables in which livestock had been kept previously,

25 cattle, and in these three stables in which the detainees were kept, these

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1 three stables were also surrounded by barbed wire, and I noticed that

2 perhaps two or three metres from that fence, there was a warning. It

3 said, "Mines." And I assumed that it was mined too.

4 Q. Now, once you arrived at the camp, did you go inside an office of

5 some kind?

6 A. When we arrived at the camp, they first took us to a long building

7 which was an official office. We sat down there. We were on one side and

8 the officers, officers were on the other side. They introduced

9 themselves.

10 Q. The officers who were there, had you seen, or met any of them

11 before?

12 A. I had seen the commander of the camp, Popovic. I had seen him in

13 the command when we were arranging this visit, and I think that this

14 dark-haired officer who was also in the command, I think he was there in

15 Manjaca too.

16 Q. Now, did Commander Popovic speak to you first of all?

17 A. Commander Popovic spoke to us. He introduced himself officially.

18 He said that he was the commander of the camp, that the camp was under the

19 1st Krajina Corps, and that the prisoners were prisoners of war, men who

20 had participated in the resistance, men who had resisted and had been

21 arrested, and he said, and this is something that he repeated, he said

22 that he was treating them in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and he

23 emphasised that, their fate would be -- that they would be going to other

24 countries in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

25 Q. At the time you say he told you that these people -- these men,

1 had been resisters, was this after the attack on Kozarac had taken place?

2 Your visit to the camp?

3 A. That was after the attack on Kozarac.

4 Q. Did he tell you anything about where these men had come from,

5 where they had been resisting?

6 A. No, he didn't mention that.

7 Q. Did he tell you how many men there were at the camp roughly, if

8 you can remember?

9 A. I remember that it was said that there were 1.270 or 1.290

10 detainees.

11 Q. Before you went round the camp, as much as you were given

12 permission, did he tell you anything about the condition of the prisoners?

13 A. The dark-haired officer later said -- he spoke about the

14 conditions, about the accommodation in the camp. He said that there was a

15 medical clinic in the camp for the sick, that the detainees were organised

16 in the camp, that they had certain senior inmates, and that there was a

17 certain order, so to speak, which had to be respected. He said that they

18 had food; he didn't say what kind of food or how much. And he also said

19 that they would be taken to third countries, other countries, and he also

20 said that we would visit the camp, and mentioned that we couldn't speak to

21 the detainees.

22 Q. Now, were you allowed to go round the camp?

23 A. We were allowed to go around the camp.

24 Q. When you went round the camp, who was with you? I mean not -- to

25 make it clear, from the military side.

1 A. The dark-haired officer was with us. He was always with us. For

2 sometime the commander, Commander Popovic was with us, or perhaps he was

3 with us all the time. I can't remember exactly right now. I know the

4 dark-haired officer was always with us. And there were perhaps another

5 two or three men, officers, I don't know who they were, but in any event,

6 I felt that each one of us had one officer, one soldier, with him. So

7 there were four military men plus the dark-haired officer, and the

8 commander was there, although he explained, as we were visiting the camp,

9 he explained what there was in the various buildings in the camp.

10 Q. What was the first area that you were taken to?

11 A. We first went inside the building which we had entered, where that

12 office was located in which we had been met, and inside that building we

13 entered a room and they said it was a medical clinic.

14 Q. Did you speak to anyone?

15 A. We met two -- yes. We spoke to someone there.

16 Q. And who did you speak to there?

17 A. We met two doctors, so to speak. I thought they were doctors.

18 They were wearing white overcoats, doctors' overcoats and by their side

19 was a military officer who was standing when we entered that room and they

20 told us, "This is a medical clinic," and to the left there was a bed,

21 medical bed, a hospital bed, and there was a cupboard, a medical cupboard

22 for medicine and I noticed that it was empty. And we spoke to these

23 people who were wearing these white overcoats. It was very revealing for

24 me at that moment. I saw that these people in the white overcoats were

25 afraid. And then after the conversation, and when I had a look below, I

1 noticed that one of them was wearing shoes that had been torn. He was

2 wearing big shoes that had been torn. I realised that they were, in fact,

3 detainees. He introduced himself. Neither one of them was a doctor. But

4 I think that they said that they were orderlies, medical orderlies, they

5 weren't doctors. And they told us about the health situation in the camp.

6 Q. In summary form, and I mean in summary, Mr. Dzonlic, what did they

7 say were the medical problems in the camp?

8 A. They told us straight away that they had a shortage of medicines

9 and they emphasised that there were quite a number of diabetes patients,

10 quite a number of people with high blood pressure, that they were short of

11 bandages, that they were short of vitamins. They asked, if possible,

12 could we supply them with vitamins. Then there were quite a number of

13 people with intestinal problems, stomach problems. And they specifically

14 asked if we could provide the necessary medicines. But the greatest

15 problem was the problem of people suffering from diabetes.

16 Q. Did they mention anything about the age of the detainees and any

17 problems that might arise from that?

18 A. They said that there were some elderly people there too, though I

19 could feel that they could not speak freely. They were not free to say

20 whatever they wanted to say. They were in fear. I could see that they

21 were trembling and one could see fear in their eyes. So they did not feel

22 free to tell us everything that they wanted to tell us, at least that was

23 my impression.

24 Q. You said they asked for bandages. Did they explain why they

25 needed bandages?

1 A. I asked why they needed them, as did Professor Bajric, why they

2 needed bandages. Did he didn't give us an answer. I remember that I also

3 asked, "When you have so many sick people, and only this one single bed in

4 the clinic, and you're short of medicines?" Again they didn't give me an

5 answer so my impression was that they didn't dare speak.

6 Q. All right. Was anything said by either of these two orderlies or

7 whatever they were, people in white jackets, about any injuries to

8 prisoners?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. Now, after you'd been to this, as it were, clinic-type place, did

11 you then go to the place where the prisoners were being held?

12 A. Yes. When we had finished this conversation, they said that we

13 would now be going to see where the detainees or the prisoners were being

14 held.

15 Q. And were you taken to a stable?

16 A. When we left this room where we had had this conversation, we

17 turned right. There was an asphalt road and we covered about 50 metres.

18 To our left was the internal camp surrounded with wire, in which there

19 were these three large stables. Personally, at that point in time, it

20 never occurred to me that people were inside those stables. Then they

21 again opened a large gate for us. We passed by the first, second and

22 third stable, and they told us that we would enter this third stable, the

23 last one from the entrance, and they opened the door and we entered

24 inside.

25 Q. What was the first thing that hit you as you -- or that you

1 noticed when you went into that stable?

2 A. It was horrible. The first thought I had was I had felt all my

3 life that Auschwitz that I had seen on television and pictures of, was

4 reality, but after all, it's only shown on films, and then it was that I

5 realised that this was reality, and the association I had was of

6 Auschwitz. It was a large stable for livestock. In the middle of the

7 stable was a concrete path running from the front to the end. To the

8 right and the left of that concrete path was a -- an iron fence, and below

9 those fences, to the right and to the left, were the detainees, who were

10 lying there. I noticed that most of them were lying down. They were in a

11 lying position. And next to the iron fence, further inside the stable,

12 there were quite a number of them queueing up for something, one behind

13 the other. And I wondered. I didn't know why they were standing there.

14 And then I realised, when we reached the end of the queue, one of the

15 prisoners had in front of him a container full of water, and he was

16 shaving them all. And I remember that it was full of hairs from the

17 shaving. I knew that we had been told that we should not communicate with

18 the prisoners but one just couldn't do that. So we did talk to them as we

19 passed by. And the officers saw this. And on a number of occasions, they

20 cautioned us not to talk to them.

21 Q. Just pause for a moment, please. Who told you that you were not

22 to communicate with the prisoners?

23 A. The dark-haired officer whom they addressed as captain. He said

24 that we should not communicate with them. He had told us this in the

25 office when he received us, and also while we were in the stable, he

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1 cautioned us to that effect, not to talk and not to communicate with them.

2 Q. Did you ever discover what this officer's name was?

3 A. No. I said yesterday that I had my own diary where I noted down

4 all the meetings, the times and the names of all those present, but I had

5 to destroy them. I had all that recorded but unfortunately, I don't have

6 it any more.

7 Q. All right. Can I ask you, what were the prisoners wearing?

8 A. I found it very strange. I came believing that these were

9 prisoners of war, as they had insisted, but I noticed that these were

10 people, ordinary civilians. No one was in uniform. They were all

11 dressed -- there were some people in pyjamas, there were people who were

12 bare foot. There were people with short-sleeved T-shirts but I didn't see

13 a single one of the detainees wearing a uniform of any kind. And I found

14 this very strange and I realised then that these were not prisoners of

15 war. Perhaps they were because that was the status they were given and

16 treated as such, but essentially they were civilians. And this was proven

17 to be true during our communication with a certain number of prisoners. I

18 asked --

19 Q. I'm sorry, before we move on to any communication, can we just

20 finish the descriptions, please? You told us about the clothing. Did

21 you notice anything about the condition of the men?

22 A. They were in a terrible condition. I remember one of them, I had

23 the feeling that his eyes would pop out of his head, he was so skinny.

24 And they were miserable looking. There were some with blood stains. They

25 were beaten up. Most of them were lying down. They couldn't even stand

1 or sit up. As we walked along the stable, one could hear moans by

2 individuals. I remember one was standing immobile, as if he was dead and

3 I asked, "What's wrong with him?" And somebody said, "His neck has been

4 broken." I saw them covered in blood. They were in a dreadful, dreadful

5 physical and mental state.

6 Q. Did they have any kind of bedding that you could see?

7 A. They were sleeping on the concrete and lying on the concrete, on

8 which, but not throughout, there was straw. And over the straw, there was

9 a blanket. But there wasn't straw everywhere so that there were some

10 people who were lying directly on the concrete.

11 Q. The ages of the men, what sort of ages was the range? What sort

12 of -- bad sentence. What was the range of ages that you saw?

13 A. There were some underage men and there were some very old men. So

14 the range was between 15 and 70 or maybe more.

15 Q. You've told us you were able to speak to some of the prisoners.

16 A. We couldn't speak to them but we did speak to them nevertheless,

17 and the dark-haired officer kept saying that we should stop talking to

18 them that we were not allowed to speak to them but we paid no attention.

19 Q. When you were able to speak to them, what did they tell you?

20 A. As far as I personally am concerned, I spoke to about five or six

21 men. I asked them how they were, where they were from. One of them said

22 that he was from Prijedor, that he had been taken in his own house, they

23 came to my house and took me away, he said. Another one said he was also

24 from Prijedor, that he had been taken, picked up from his garden, where he

25 had been working. They came and took him away. He said that he had been

1 brought from Omarska. One was from Bosanska Dubica. One said that he was

2 from Derventa, that he had been brought there from the Stara Gradiska

3 camp, where he had been detained, and that he had been brought to Manjaca.

4 I asked each of them whether they had resisted, and all of the ones I

5 spoke to said that none of them was in the resistance or a member of any

6 armed force, but that they were civilians who had been rounded up in their

7 houses and fields.

8 Q. Can we just pause there for a moment again, please? Firstly,

9 you've mentioned Stara Gradiska. Do you know what Stara Gradiska was,

10 what kind of camp?

11 A. Before the war, there was a prison there, a well-known prison.

12 But as far as I know, it was also a camp, a prison and a camp, under the

13 JNA, where they took prisoners to that camp.

14 Q. Just for the -- so that the Court understands, where is Stara

15 Gradiska, is it in Bosnia?

16 A. Stara Gradiska is not in Bosnia. It is in Croatia. As you cross

17 the bridge separating Bosnia and Herzegovina from Croatia, the bridge over

18 the Sava, once you cross the Sava, you enter Croatia and that is where the

19 Stara Gradiska camp was.

20 Q. What was the smell like in that stable?

21 A. That is impossible to describe. It's a smell that I never in my

22 life had felt before. It's impossible to describe in words. But it

23 indicated that these people had not had a bath since they had come there,

24 that they had no running water to wash with or to bathe in. Secondly,

25 they were lined up like sardines in a tin in an area of some -- an area

1 that would be sufficient to house half the number of people in there.

2 According to my estimate, there were about 350 to 400 men there.

3 Secondly, because this used to be a stable, it was always a stable in the

4 past for livestock, so you could smell the stench of manure and livestock

5 and all this had mixed together so that the smell is simply

6 indescribable. And it was very hard to breathe even inside.

7 Q. Did you see any sanitary facilities?

8 A. I saw, when we had toured the stables, they showed us the other

9 part of the camp, and I saw, in the immediate vicinity of those stables, a

10 so-called field toilets lined up one to another. There were ten to 15 of

11 them, made out of wooden boards. And the stench was dreadful coming from

12 them, and then I asked this dark-haired officer what it was, and he said

13 it was the toilets. The toilets were right next to where they were

14 housed. And also in the immediate vicinity was the improvised kitchen

15 where they had their meals so that the conditions were absolutely

16 unhygienic and inappropriate for human beings.

17 Q. Did you see any shower facilities or bath facilities?

18 A. I didn't see that.

19 Q. You've told us that the kitchen was right next to the field

20 lavatories. Was there any food that you saw at the kitchen?

21 A. They said that this was their kitchen. However, it was about the

22 same length as the stable with a roof over it, and along the whole length

23 there were quite high boards so that the detainees couldn't sit and eat,

24 they had to eat standing up. And some 30 metres from that covered area

25 was a military vehicle which they described as a kitchen. It is a mobile

1 military vehicle where the meals were cooked. And that's what they called

2 the kitchen. Around this vehicle there were four or five men who were

3 also prisoners, who, I assume, and we did communicate with them, they were

4 the cooks, who prepared the food they had.

5 Q. Yes. The question I'm sorry, Mr. Dzonlic, was did you see any

6 food or was there any discussion about the food that was given to the

7 prisoners?

8 A. We didn't see any food. And as for the cooks, we did talk to them

9 about food, and they said that that is where the food was cooked, but they

10 didn't tell us what kind of food. They just said that that is where the

11 meals were prepared in this cauldron or whatever, but we didn't see any

12 food. Nor did we have any discussions about food.

13 Q. Now, did you visit all three stables during that time you were

14 there?

15 A. No, no. We didn't visit all three stables. When we left this

16 first stable, we entered the second stable, which was identical to the

17 first. And we went through the same procedure. We came out and then this

18 dark-haired officer said, "It's enough now. You'll go out now." And then

19 we will bring ten prisoners from each of these buildings to talk to.

20 I asked that we be allowed to enter this third stable, which was

21 in fact the first you come to when you enter this closed area, but he

22 said, "No, you can't go inside the third one. You'll go out of this

23 internal encampment," and he would bring ten prisoners from each of the

24 stables.

25 Q. And were a number of prisoners brought to where you were?

1 A. We stood in front of the entrance, and we noticed that from each

2 of the stables, most probably ten were coming out in a line, one behind

3 the other, with their hands on their backs and their heads bowed, and they

4 came up to us.

5 Q. Now, did you recognise any of those prisoners?

6 A. Yes. I recognised my brother.

7 Q. Before --

8 A. And I screamed out. I screamed out, I said, "There is my

9 brother." And the Commander Popovic said to me, "These things also happen

10 in life."

11 Q. Had you been aware that your brother was being held in Manjaca?

12 A. No. I didn't know he was in Manjaca. But I knew, and I thought,

13 that he was in Stara Gradiska because we had learnt that he was there. I

14 didn't know that he was being held at Manjaca.

15 Q. What was your brother's job at that stage in 1992?

16 A. My brother is a mechanical engineer, a designer, and he worked in

17 a research and design centre in a company in Banja Luka called Jasinkar

18 [phoen].

19 Q. When had you learnt that you -- you say you thought that he was in

20 Stara Gradiska. How had you learned that he was in Stara Gradiska, and

21 when?

22 A. My brother was arrested in Okucani because escorting a sick man,

23 he was going to Sweden. Then both he and this man, who had dual

24 citizenship, he had Yugoslav and Swedish citizenship, when they were

25 captured, they were taken to Stara Gradiska. This man was released two

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1 days later and he came to our house and he told us that they had been

2 arrested and taken to Stara Gradiska, that he had been released but that

3 my brother was still in Stara Gradiska. This was, I don't know exactly

4 when.

5 Q. All right. First, Okucani is where?

6 A. Okucani is in Croatia.

7 Q. Was your brother at that stage involved in any kind of resistance?

8 A. No. My brother was a civilian and he was escorting this patient

9 who had documents saying that he'd needed an escort.

10 Q. Finally this before the break, how old was your brother at that

11 time?

12 A. My brother is two years older than me, so he was 34 then. He was

13 born in 1957. And this happened in 1992. So he was 35.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, would that be a convenient place?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a 25-minute break, resuming at 5 to

16 11.00. Thank you.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

20 Yes, Ms. Korner, you may proceed.

21 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, you told us about your brother's arrest and how you

23 saw him at Manjaca. Were you able to speak to him when you saw him at

24 Manjaca?

25 A. Yes. I was able to speak to him.

1 Q. Did you -- did he tell you how long he'd been at Manjaca?

2 A. As far as I can remember, he told me that he had been taken there

3 from Stara Gradiska about ten days before we arrived there, on that day,

4 before we arrived in Manjaca.

5 Q. And what sort of condition was he in?

6 A. In my opinion, I thought that he was psychologically very afraid.

7 When he approached me, the first thing he said was, "They haven't beaten

8 me." I didn't ask him about that but he told me that immediately. I

9 always wondered why he told me that. I thought that perhaps he wanted to

10 tell me that I shouldn't think about that. But later I found out that

11 they beat him but this is something that he wanted to tell me. He didn't

12 want me to worry and he said that they hadn't beaten him. He was quite

13 afraid, and he was quite thin in comparison to the way he looked when he

14 left. And that was about a month ago.

15 Q. Now, did you have any conversation with any other detainees,

16 prisoners?

17 A. During the pause, I remembered that as we were passing through the

18 stable, one of the detainees, one of the prisoners, told me that "There

19 are other detainees, real prisoners of war, about 300 of them, and they

20 are somewhere deep in the woods, in some houses, wooden huts. No one can

21 approach them and you can't have access to them." And when these 30

22 detainees or rather ten from each stable, came to speak to us, we listened

23 to what one gentleman had to say. He had crutches. One of his legs was

24 broken and he was supporting himself on crutches and he said that his name

25 was Filipovic, and that he was from Kljuc. He spoke and another gentleman

1 who introduced himself as -- I can remember his surname, Bender, also

2 spoke.

3 Q. And where did Mr. Bender come from? Did he tell you?

4 A. He also came from Kljuc. They were both from Kljuc, gentlemen

5 Filipovic and Mr. Bender.

6 Q. Now, when they spoke to you, were the officer that you described

7 with the dark hair, was he there?

8 A. Yes, they were sitting by our sides. They were standing by our

9 sides. And Commander Popovic then appeared because as far as I can

10 remember, he didn't enter the stables with us, and when we came out of the

11 stables to see the detainees, Commander Popovic also arrived.

12 Q. Now, as best you can remember, what did Mr. Filipovic and

13 Mr. Bender tell you about the conditions?

14 A. Mr. Filipovic and Mr. Bender were very courageous, and they told

15 me exactly what they had said and they said this in a very sincere way and

16 they told us about everything that had been done to them in the camp.

17 They talked about being starved. They said that they would receive a

18 quarter of a slice of bread every day; that was a meal. And it was

19 accompanied by some water. They said that they were maltreated every day

20 and beaten every day, and that at night, it was the worst because they

21 would call them and take them out of the stables. They would beat them

22 until they were exhausted. He said that they would put them in pits of

23 some kind and then jump on them. He said that there were quite a few

24 people who were almost dead. I was really surprised by the courage that

25 these people had, the courage they had to say these things and I thought

1 it would be better if they didn't say such things because we could see for

2 ourselves what condition the people were in. And I thought about what

3 would happen to them, what would happen to these people, to Bender and to

4 Filipovic because of what they had said, because of the fact that they had

5 said exactly what had been done to them. And I would like to repeat

6 this. I remember they said it was worst at night because they would call

7 them and take them out to maltreat them and beat them, and they said that

8 quite a few people were killed.

9 Q. Okay. Can we just stop there for a moment? Did they say how the

10 beatings took place? In other words, with fists or with weapons or what?

11 A. They said that they used wooden sticks to beat them and they said

12 that when they would beat you with copper cables, that was the worst sort

13 of beating, and they said they did this to people whom they wanted to kill

14 because it seems that this cable is so strong that men succumbed to their

15 wounds. They would kick them too and put them in these pits in this

16 beaten state and then they would jump on them. So, very often, some -- a

17 certain number of people who had been taken out of the stables wouldn't

18 come back. They were killed. He didn't mention the names of people. He

19 just gave a precise description of the number of people that they beat and

20 how they did this.

21 Q. Did they say who was doing the beating?

22 A. The officers on duty and the guards who were in the camp. He

23 didn't give any names but he said they would come for them at night, they

24 would call them, they would take them out, they were the guards and the

25 people who were guarding them.

1 Q. Now, to jump ahead just for a moment, you say that you were

2 concerned about the fact that Mr. Filipovic and Mr. Bender were saying all

3 this. Why were you concerned?

4 A. I was concerned because they were saying this in such a public

5 way, in front of these officers and camp commanders. They were talking

6 about what had been done to them in a very public manner, and I thought

7 that when we left they would do all sorts of things to them because they

8 really told me what they had been doing to them. And the commander and

9 the officers and all the military personnel allowed them to do this. They

10 didn't interrupt them when they were speaking about this to us. I felt

11 that something would happen to them, because of the sincerity with which

12 they provided us with this information.

13 Q. Did you later hear about the deaths of Mr. Filipovic and

14 Mr. Bender?

15 A. Yes. I heard about the deaths of both these men.

16 Q. Approximately how long after your visit did you hear that they

17 were dead?

18 A. Perhaps ten or 15 days after that. I think it was perhaps ten or

19 15 days, but I can't be precise.

20 Q. Roughly, you've dealt with the fact that this visit took place

21 after the attack on Kozarac and after you'd made a number of visits. Can

22 you tell us what month it was that you made this visit?

23 A. I think it was towards the end of May or perhaps it was the

24 beginning of June. That was the period more or less.

25 Q. We may be able to get a date through a different route. After you

1 had finished your visit, did you prepare a report of that visit?

2 A. After we had finished this conversation with the detainees --

3 Q. I'm going to come back to -- I know there was more in the camp but

4 I'm trying to get at the date, Mr. Dzonlic. That's why I'm going ahead

5 slightly. Did you prepare a report when you'd finished your visit?

6 A. Yes. I prepared a report on the visit to the Manjaca camp, and I

7 submitted it to the headquarters of the UNHCR, to Mrs. Ruby Ziebert and I

8 submitted it to Mr. Beat at the International Red Cross. It was a signed

9 report on the visit and on the conditions in the camp.

10 Q. Now, as a result of your report, what did the International Red

11 Cross do?

12 A. We managed to arrange with the International Red Cross --

13 according to our first agreement, we arranged that the International Red

14 Cross would enter the camp in -- within eight days' time but I think that

15 perhaps 20 days passed before they managed to enter the camp, and so to

16 speak, put all the detainees on record and take control of the -- of the

17 camp. And I think that the situation in the camp was then a lot better

18 than when we were there. They managed to become the patron, so to speak,

19 of the camp.

20 Q. So although you can't remember an exact date, your visit took

21 place sometime after the attack on Kozarac and before the International

22 Red Cross went to the camp for the first time?

23 A. That's right. We were the first to enter the camp. A lot earlier

24 than the International Red Cross.

25 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, I went ahead there because I just wanted to try

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1 and establish a time frame. You've told us about your conversation with

2 Mr. Bender and Mr. Filipovic. At the end of that conversation, did you

3 return to the offices where you'd originally seen Commander Popovic and

4 his officers?

5 A. Yes. We returned to the same office where we had been received

6 when we arrived at the camp.

7 Q. Now, what did you say to the commander about what you'd seen?

8 A. I told the commander that they were not acting in accordance with

9 the Geneva Conventions in the camp and I remember that before I went to

10 the camp I took a copy of the Geneva Conventions with me and I studied the

11 rules and procedure of the Geneva Conventions, and I objected that there

12 was not a public notice in the camp stating the rights of all the

13 detainees. I objected to the living conditions in the camp. And I said

14 that these conditions were not conditions fit for human beings. These

15 were conditions fit for animals. I objected to the food, because on the

16 basis of Bender's statement and on the basis whatever Filipovic said, I

17 found out how much food they were being given. We asked them to allow us

18 to provide supplies of medicine, because there were quite a few old people

19 and sick people. I also asked, since the Commander Popovic was quite firm

20 about the fact that the detainees would be going to other countries, I

21 told the commander that I doubted -- I wasn't convinced by his position

22 that they were prisoners of war, and to support my claim I said that I had

23 seen my brother in the camp. I don't know the other people, I said, but I

24 know my brother and I know that he wasn't a member of any kind of armed

25 force. And on the basis of what people said, on the basis of statements

1 made by people who said that they had been taken from their houses, from

2 their gardens, it was possible to conclude that civilians were in

3 question. He remained firm and said that they would be going to other

4 countries, and I then suggested that all the detainees be placed under the

5 patronage of UNPROFOR because at the moment they were suggesting the

6 presence of the Canadian UNPROFOR that they make a basis near Banja Luka

7 and that we place them in that basis and that they be under protection

8 there. We didn't want them to go to other countries but he remained firm

9 and he said that they could only go to other countries.

10 Q. When you said to him these men were not prisoners of war but

11 civilians, did he respond to that at all? Other than saying what you've

12 just told us?

13 A. That's all he said. He said these were prisoners of war. They

14 will be going to other countries.

15 Q. And did you tell him that you were going to make a report to the

16 ICRC?

17 A. Yes. I told him that I would do it as soon as I returned, that I

18 would submit a report to the International Red Cross on the state in the

19 camp and that I would request that the International Red Cross enter the

20 camp.

21 Q. All right. Now, I want you, please, to look very briefly at a

22 video that you've had an opportunity to see before. I just want to ask

23 you a couple of questions about it.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I know it was shown to Mr. Medic

25 yesterday but I just want to ask him two questions.

1 [Videotape played]

2 MS. KORNER: Could we pause the video for a moment, please?

3 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, this is, as you can see, the inside of Manjaca.

4 We've seen some prisoners there. It was taken in August of 1992. First

5 of all, is that how you saw the prisoners?

6 A. Yes. That's what I saw.

7 Q. Were they in this sitting position?

8 A. They weren't sitting. The ones I can see here, the ones who are

9 sitting, when we entered, they were standing in a line, but those further

10 down, they were lying down. They were all lying down.

11 MS. KORNER: Okay. If we could continue playing it for a moment.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. KORNER: Pause, please. Sorry, could we just run it back for

14 a moment and pause at that shot? The shot of the inside of the stable,

15 please? Thank you. Can we pause there?

16 Q. What about the shoes? Is that how the shoes were? Or were people

17 actually wearing the shoes?

18 A. The people were wearing them and the shoes weren't like this. And

19 there weren't that many people on this concrete passage, as in this -- as

20 in this image.

21 MS. KORNER: Very well. Can we move on, then, for a moment,

22 please? Sorry, can we move the film?

23 [Videotape played]

24 MS. KORNER: Now, pause please. Sorry. All right. We needn't go

25 back. Yes, that man there, do you recognise him, the one with the

1 glasses?

2 A. Yes. That's the commander of the camp, Popovic.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes. We can go on.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MS. KORNER: Now, can we pause, please?

6 Q. You've told us that the men were very thin. Were they as thin as

7 or fatter or about the same? Some of them?

8 A. They were even thinner than the one in this picture.

9 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Could you just move on for a moment, play

10 film?

11 [Videotape played]

12 MS. KORNER: Pause, please.

13 Q. Or that gentleman? Did you see anybody that thin?

14 A. I saw people who were this thin, too.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I've been informed and I could be

17 wrong, but I've been informed that this particular man that the

18 Prosecution knows who he is, and knows that he was a person who was

19 suffering from cancer and that his condition is not reflection of

20 conditions in Manjaca but a reflection of the disease that he was

21 suffering from. I think the Prosecution knows that. I could be wrong.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: I don't know where Mr. Ackerman has got that

24 information from. I certainly don't know that. If Mr. Ackerman wants to

25 supply me with the source of his information and the name of the man, we

1 will certainly do a check.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: The caption even says that these are people that

3 came there only three days before from Omarska so his condition could have

4 nothing to do, I would think, with Manjaca, in any event, and I'll try to

5 run down the source of that information.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In the meantime, we can proceed.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say I accept entirely a number of

8 these prisoners had been transferred from Omarska. I'm not asking --

9 that's why I'm deliberately phrasing the question, "Did you see anybody as

10 thin as this?"

11 Sorry, could we have the film again?

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. KORNER: Yes, we can just run it to the end.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much. That's sufficient.

16 Q. Finally, on the film we've just seen, Mr. Dzonlic, were the

17 numbers that you saw roughly the same as the numbers that we can see in

18 that film, the numbers of prisoners?

19 A. Something like that. One could say that, that the numbers were

20 something like that, but as I was saying, there weren't that many on the

21 concrete passage way but there were more people lying down on the other

22 side, but the numbers were something like that, yes.

23 Q. All right. Finally on the topic of Manjaca, then, Mr. Dzonlic,

24 whilst you were at the camp, did you make any requests as to the release

25 of people?

1 A. Yes, yes. We did make the request for release, for the release of

2 certain categories of people.

3 Q. What sort of categories did you ask for?

4 A. We noticed while visiting the camp that there were quite a number

5 of men under age, quite a number of those who were ill, elderly people, we

6 noticed that. But we asked the camp commander whether there were any

7 religious officials and he said there were, and then we made the request

8 that religious officials should be released, as well as the children who

9 were underage, the elderly and the people who were seriously ill.

10 Q. And you made the request to the camp commander. Did he give you

11 an answer then?

12 A. At the time, he said that this could be discussed and that it

13 would be possible but he didn't say that he would release them. He said

14 that we should make such a request in writing.

15 Q. And did he tell you to whom that request should be addressed?

16 A. I think he said we should address it to the command of the 1st

17 Krajina Corps in Banja Luka, that we should take it there and hand it in,

18 as far as I can remember.

19 Q. And did you draft such a request?

20 A. Yes. We did, on behalf of our office, we drafted a written

21 request for such a release, and I think that, whether it was Fadil Medic

22 or Professor Bajric, one of the two, took the request and handed it in to

23 the command in Banja Luka.

24 Q. If you don't know the answers, then say so, but you say it was a

25 request addressed to the command. Was it addressed to anybody in the

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1 command, a particular officer?

2 A. I don't know that. I don't know to whom personally it was

3 addressed. I just know that we did draft such a request but to whom

4 personally it was addressed, I don't know.

5 Q. Very well. Now, as a result of that request, were, in fact, a

6 number of people released, some days later?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Roughly how many people?

9 A. I think around 100, 110, something like that, 120.

10 Q. And what sort of types of person were in that 120?

11 A. Among them, as far as I can remember, there were about ten or 15

12 religious officials. Then maybe 20 or so minors. Then 30 or so men over

13 70. And the rest were seriously ill and beaten up people. There were

14 some on stretchers even.

15 Q. All right. I want now to move to a different topic, please,

16 before I ask you to look at some of the documents that you've already

17 looked at. You've told us about the two crisis staffs, the regional and

18 the municipal Crisis Staff. The municipal assembly, did that meet at all

19 during the period beginning of May and September? I'm sorry, take it back

20 to July, July, 1992.

21 A. The assembly did meet but very rarely. But there were sessions.

22 I would not be able to say exactly how many sessions the assembly held,

23 but there were some.

24 Q. At some stage, had your party, the SDA, made any decision with

25 regard to attendance by members of your party at the assembly?

1 A. Yes. We took the decision to withdraw from the assembly and we

2 instructed our deputies to walk out of the assembly. This was done both

3 by us and the HDZ party, which made a similar decision.

4 Q. Was that decision or instruction, to your members not to attend,

5 followed by everyone, that is to say, the members of your party?

6 A. As far as I'm able to recall now, I think that we had 13 deputies

7 in the municipal assembly. Two deputies turned a deaf ear to our decision

8 and did not observe it and stayed on in the assembly. One was a

9 gentleman, by occupation a dentist. I think his surname was Busatlic and

10 another deputy from the locality of Vrbanja I think his name was Handan.

11 And the two of them did not observe our decision. Nor did the

12 Vice-President of the Banja Luka Municipal Assembly, Adem Gunic. The

13 others did walk out of the assembly.

14 Q. The dentist, did he have any particular relationship with any

15 member of the SDS?

16 A. Yes. I think that -- that Mr. Batar who was in the SDS, was his

17 kum at his wedding, the best man at his wedding. Either Busatlic was his

18 best man or Mr. Batar was Bustalic's best man. Anyway, one or the other.

19 Q. Now, did you ever see in Banja Luka, during the period of time

20 before you left in 1993, a particular motor car, a red Kombi?

21 A. Yes. I did see a red vehicle, a red Kombi, two or three times.

22 Q. In what sort of circumstances?

23 A. Once, I was passing by the building of the Glas daily newspaper in

24 Banja Luka, which was right close to where I live, and this red van drove

25 by. I think it was a Renault pickup truck and the rear doors were open.

1 One could hear very loud Serbian music from the car, and inside there were

2 about ten or so men in some sort of uniforms. They also held something

3 that looked like baseball bats in their hands.

4 Q. Were you able to see what sort of uniform it was?

5 A. They were olive-green but they were not like the regular uniforms

6 worn by the Yugoslav People's Army, the regular troops, but they were of

7 the same colour, but they were not exactly the type worn by all the

8 regular troops.

9 Q. Do you know anything about the activities of this particular

10 vehicle and occupants?

11 A. Those men went around town intentionally to spread fear among

12 citizens. They would suddenly appear in various restaurants or coffee

13 bars, looking for particular individuals, and I heard that they would take

14 people away, beat them, and I think their aim was to terrorise the

15 citizens, because they moved around at a very slow pace, at 20 or 30

16 kilometres an hour, and they circled round town. They drove around town.

17 Q. Do you personally know anyone who was picked up by these men?

18 A. Personally, I know one man, whom they beat up, but they didn't

19 take him away. They just beat him. They reached a pub near the Ferhadija

20 Mosque and his name was Emir. They entered the bar and they beat him up

21 but they didn't take him away. I know they beat him.

22 Q. Now, you've talked about these men wearing as it were, irregular

23 uniform. During this period, did you see irregular military forces? In

24 other words, forces that did not appear to be part of the JNA or the

25 Bosnian Serb Army?

1 A. Yes. I did.

2 Q. First of all, in what circumstances did you see them?

3 A. I would frequently see, as I walked along the street in which I

4 lived, but also from a window in my apartment, I would see three or four,

5 and sometimes even ten or 15, buses go by full of soldiers who were

6 dressed differently. They wore red caps on their heads, like berets, red

7 berets, and they were passing by on their way to Jajce. I assume they

8 were going towards the Krajina.

9 Q. I'm sorry. I'll stop you. You were saying they were passing on

10 their way to Jajce. What made you say that they were going to Jajce?

11 A. Because that road leads to Jajce.

12 Q. And perhaps you can just explain to the court what during this

13 period of time was happening at Jajce?

14 A. There were intensified battles going on in Jajce and I remember

15 that they were saying in Banja Luka that there was very strong resistance

16 in Jajce and that they were afraid. I remember that they thought that

17 because close by is the Bocaci hydro power plant and there was talk in

18 town that they would lose Jajce and they were afraid that the regular

19 army, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, would gain control of the hydro

20 power plant and release the water and the whole of Banja Luka would be

21 flooded. However, after a short period of time, I know that one morning I

22 woke up and the story in town was that Jajce had been liberated and

23 thousands of trucks arrived, shooting around, these military trucks came,

24 once they had managed to enter Jajce.

25 Q. So we all understand clearly, who had succeeded -- sorry, who had

1 liberated Jajce?

2 A. The Serbs said that they had liberated Jajce. That is what they

3 said when they entered Jajce. They said they had liberated it.

4 Q. And Jajce was being resisted or the entry into Jajce was being

5 resisted by whom? Which army or which ethnicity?

6 A. The Bosniaks and the Croats were putting up joint resistance.

7 Q. Now, you've described these buses going through with men who were

8 wearing red berets. Did you ever see any of these irregular forces at a

9 closer range?

10 A. I did see them in town, in groups of three members, who were

11 dressed -- all dressed up, as we would say in Banja Luka. They wore high

12 leather boots up to their knees, short leather jackets with fur collars,

13 Ray-ban glasses and fur caps with a cockade on it. And they were all of

14 more or less equal height, over 1 metre 90 centimetres and they marched

15 around town. And the story in town was that these were Seselj's forces.

16 Q. Were you ever given an opportunity to hear any of these men, these

17 type of men, paramilitary forces, talking?

18 A. Yes. On one occasion, in a pizzeria, which was in the centre of

19 town close to the well known Kusma Banja Luka bar, a pizzeria had been

20 opened, and on one occasion, we were sitting in the garden of that

21 pizzeria, and ten or so men arrived, who were wearing black uniforms. We

22 called them Ninja; that is how they were dressed. And they spoke in the

23 Ekavica dialect. They had a lot of money on them. And they said that

24 they had brought Serb money from Belgrade in transport vehicles. And he

25 said that in future this would be our money which would be used in Banja

1 Luka. A part of that money, they said, would be left here and a part of

2 it would be taken to Knin, the Knin Krajina. They stayed there for maybe

3 three or four days, and I would see them every night, they would come

4 every evening. They would act extravagantly. They would buy drinks for

5 everyone with that money.

6 Q. Pausing there for a moment, you said they spoke with the Ekavica

7 dialect. Where is that from?

8 A. Yes. They spoke Ekavica. It is the original Serbian dialect.

9 The people in Belgrade use it. I was -- I served in Belgrade. I did my

10 military service there, and I'm familiar with the Belgrade dialect. And

11 they said so themselves. They said they had come from Belgrade and that

12 they had brought cash, which would be the currency in Banja Luka, and that

13 a part of it would be taken to Knin.

14 Q. Now, the Serbian money that they brought with them, did that

15 circulate in Banja Luka?

16 A. Yes, from then on, we started paying in Serbian money. It became

17 the regular currency.

18 Q. Now, one final matter: During this period of time, between May,

19 1992, roughly, and February, 1993, when you left, did non-Serbs leave

20 Banja Luka?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In what sort of numbers?

23 A. Departure from Banja Luka was very clearly established and planned

24 by the Serb authorities, which thereby ethnically cleansed and moved out

25 more than 50.000 Bosniaks and close to 30.000 Croats.

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1 Q. Pause for a moment, please. First of all, the 50.000 Bosniaks and

2 close to 30.000 Croats, are you saying all of those left in the period

3 before you left Banja Luka in February, 1993?

4 A. No, not before I left, but I'm saying the total number that left,

5 at the end, but while I was there, people were leaving. There were

6 so-called convoys arranged through agencies held by Perka, but it was

7 known as Brdjanin's agency in town. And there was a very clear-cut

8 procedure for this exodus and removal. There were three directions. One

9 was in the direction of Travnik. And there were convoys going there twice

10 a week, on Tuesday and Wednesdays. And then another direction was towards

11 Croatia via Okucani and Novska, and a third using the corridor towards

12 Serbia. But the one towards Travnik and central Bosnia was limited to

13 younger people, the elderly and women, and very rarely men of military age

14 could go towards Travnik.

15 Q. Could you pause for a moment, please, Mr. Dzonlic, because I just

16 want to ask some questions. First of all, you said that the convoys were

17 arranged through agencies held by Perka. Who or what was Perka?

18 A. This Perka headed the agency. The official name of the agency was

19 the agency for resettlement. And you addressed it after a complicated

20 procedure which preceded this for you to be able to receive a document

21 allowing you to move out. I don't know who this Perka was, this lady, but

22 I know she headed the resettlement agency and its offices were in Mala

23 Carsija opposite the bridge in Banja Luka.

24 Q. You say that this agency was known in the town as "Brdjanin's

25 agency." Why was that?

1 A. Everyone in town said that this was Brdjanin's agency, and that is

2 how people -- everyone called it, Brdjanin's agency. Some people even

3 thought that Brdjanin and Perka were related. But they referred to the

4 agency as Brdjanin's and later on, I learnt that the Krajina Crisis Staff

5 had taken a decision to set up this agency for resettlement and as

6 Brdjanin headed that Crisis Staff, it was probably for that reason that it

7 was known as Brdjanin's resettlement agency.

8 Q. Now, you said that the -- this was something that was

9 orchestrated -- I'm sorry, I think I need to run this back just to find

10 the exact words. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I just want to make sure that I

11 don't get the wrong words. Yes. You said that the departure from Banja

12 Luka was clearly established and orchestrated by the authorities. Why do

13 you say that?

14 A. Because I know that the authorities arranged it.

15 Q. And how do you know that?

16 A. I didn't hear the question. Could you repeat it, please?

17 Q. You say that you knew that the authorities arranged it. How do

18 you know that?

19 A. Well, you see, the procedure for departure, for leaving Banja

20 Luka, involved the bodies of the authorities in Banja Luka municipality

21 and certain public institutions, and you were obliged to contact them to

22 get permission for leaving. First, you had to go to the police, the

23 centre for public security, or the police, and say that you were leaving

24 and make up an address that -- where you were going. So people would

25 write down that they were going to Sweden, to Czechoslovakia, to Greece,

1 to Germany. After that, you would go to the National Defence Secretariat,

2 which would take your military documents from you. You would have to hand

3 in your uniform if you had been a mobilised conscript or if you had a

4 military assignment after doing your military service in the former JNA.

5 Once you managed to do that, you had to go to the court to get a

6 certificate that there were no criminal proceedings against you. Once you

7 got that document, you would go to public institutions such as the post

8 office, the power distribution centre, the heating facility. You would

9 have to get a certificate saying you were not a telephone subscriber or if

10 you were a telephone subscriber that you had paid all your bills. And

11 also to the power distribution organisation, to make sure you had paid

12 your electricity bills and your heating bills. Then you had to go to the

13 municipal assembly, to the tax office, to receive a certificate that you

14 owe no tax. Then you would have to go to the cadaster of the Banja Luka

15 municipality attached to the courts to show that you don't have any real

16 estate.

17 Q. I'm sorry, I'm going to stop you for a moment. I think before we

18 go any further, was this something that always happened? In other words,

19 before these events in 1992, or was this something that had only happened

20 as a result of the Crisis Staff and the like?

21 A. This was the result of decisions of the Crisis Staff. Before

22 that, it never happened.

23 Q. So you didn't have to go and go round all these bodies, as it

24 were, obtaining certificates until the Crisis Staff came into existence?

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. All right. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. What else did you have

2 to do before you leave? You said you had go to the cadaster of the Banja

3 Luka municipality to show no real estate. Anything else?

4 A. You had to go to the cadaster of Banja Luka municipality to make

5 sure that you had fulfilled all your obligations, that you had paid your

6 property tax, tax on any property you owned, and as far as I remember, I

7 collected 15 different documents from various bodies and public

8 institutions. Of course, each of those had to be paid for, the price

9 being 20 to 30 German marks on an average for each. And what would happen

10 then, once you had been issued all these certificates by these various

11 institutions, would you have to go to a kind of office behind the Bosna

12 Hotel to make a statement that you were voluntarily and for economic

13 reasons leaving Banja Luka. At one point in time, you even had to pay

14 into the Defence Ministry account 250 or 350 German marks, I can't say

15 exactly. I remember that at a meeting of the executive board of the SDA,

16 we resisted and opposed this and we informed the UNHCR, which reacted and

17 about a month later, this decision was cancelled, requiring people to pay

18 in 250 or 350 German marks for the Defence Ministry. Then you had to

19 apply to an office opposite the city bridge and you would have to hand to

20 them all these certificates you had collected and you'd have to pay 50

21 German marks to them - that was the amount I had to pay - for them to give

22 you a document which was called "permission for resettlement." But even

23 that was not the end of the story.

24 After that, you would have to go to this resettlement agency

25 headed by Perka and you would have to pay there 100 German marks for her

1 to put you on the list for removal, and Perka would give the list of names

2 for people who had applied for resettlement to the police for control.

3 The police would check it, return it to Perka. And then as I have already

4 said, through the established corridors, you would leave, either towards

5 Croatia, those who had letters of guarantees and the necessary

6 documentation, or to Travnik or the corridor towards Belgrade.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. And in such an organised and planned manner, we estimated that

9 every Tuesday and Wednesday, if there were only two busloads leaving, that

10 would be 100 people, and four times a week, that would be 500 people times

11 12 months, so it's close to 5.000 a year, just in one direction. And

12 there were three different directions or corridor.

13 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, just two further questions on this issue. First, you

14 told us that you had to make a statement that you were voluntarily and for

15 economic reasons leaving Banja Luka. Before you left in 1993, did you

16 have friends and acquaintances who left?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. For what reason were they leaving?

19 A. The main reason for their departure was fear. That was the main

20 reason. People were very scared. It wasn't for economic reasons. The

21 Bosniaks in Banja Luka were rich. They were affluent. But the main

22 reason was fear. And secondly, they had lost their jobs. They had lost

23 their flats, their accommodation, and this made people leave. This is why

24 they felt they had to leave.

25 Q. Were people allowed to take with them their savings, for example,

1 money in the bank account or any other moveable property?

2 A. No, they weren't. There was a restriction. People could leave

3 with no more than 300 German marks. That's the amount you could take out

4 with you.

5 Q. What about items such as silver or anything that they had

6 collected of that nature?

7 A. People hid these items in various ways. They would sew them into

8 their coats. They would hide them this bags, hide them in their jackets.

9 They would put these items into creams. They would open a pot of cream,

10 women's cream. They would put their gold and jewellery in there, their

11 diamond rings in there and they would close these pots of creams as if it

12 were just women's cosmetics. No one was able to wear these items, this

13 jewellery, publicly.

14 Q. Before the buses containing these emigrants left, were any

15 searches carried out by the authorities?

16 A. I don't know that, but I know that when I left, there were no

17 searches, when we entered the buses. But when the other buses left, I

18 don't -- that didn't happen, I don't think, but I heard that there were

19 searches in Bosanska Gradiska. There was a checkpoint there and I later

20 heard from people who managed to get through that they had stripped them

21 and searched them and looked through their bags and through their

22 affairs. But at the place from which they left, there were no searches.

23 Q. Finally on this topic, did you ever see persons in Banja Luka

24 passing through from other areas of Bosnia to Travnik or any of the other

25 places you've mentioned?

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1 A. I didn't but I heard about such cases. I heard that a few convoys

2 from Prijedor and Bosanski Novi had passed through Banja Luka in the

3 direction of Travnik and I remember that one of these convoys fared very

4 badly at the Korincanski Stijene near Travnik. They came from the

5 direction of Prijedor and went through Banja Luka and they were killed

6 over there.

7 Q. Yes. Don't worry about that. We are going to hear other evidence

8 about that. Thank you, Mr. Dzonlic. Then finally, on the topic of

9 conditions in Banja Luka, during the period whilst you were still in Banja

10 Luka, did you actually see any damage done to any mosque?

11 A. I saw the mosque near my place of residence, the mosque which we

12 called Potpecinska and which I referred to at the beginning of my

13 statement. I referred to this mosque at the beginning of my statement.

14 It was the first one to be set on fire. And I with the late Banja Luka

15 mufti, went there personally, went to this mosque. It had been damaged.

16 Part of the roof had collapsed. And the entrance had been broken, and

17 some of it had burnt. We arrived there at the scene on the following day

18 after this had happened. That's one case.

19 The other case that I saw, and at which I was present, was in the

20 premises of the Islamic Community, which is very near the Ferhadija

21 Mosque, and this happened when, as they said, they released, in inverted

22 commas, Jajce. The army entered Banja Luka. There were columns. They

23 came with lorries. Rifle-launched grenade hit the base of the mosque,

24 which was between the building of the Islamic Association and the

25 Ferhadija Mosque, these two buildings which are very close to each other.

1 Q. You say you were present. Do you mean you saw this actually

2 happen, the grenade hit the base?

3 A. Yes. I saw it. But the grenade didn't explode. It was shot from

4 a lorry which was circling the mosque. It was fired but it didn't

5 explode. We then came out of the premises of the Islamic Community and

6 that's when we saw this grenade.

7 Q. All right. The mosque that you did see that had been set on fire,

8 could you see, when you examined it, you say you went the following day,

9 how that fire had been caused? In other words, was it by an explosion or

10 clearly somebody just setting it on fire?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I doubt that this person is an expert on

12 determining cause of fires and things of that nature. If he is, let him

13 be qualified as such.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Generally speaking, he might give us the necessary

15 information, Mr. Ackerman. He doesn't need to be a qualified explosives

16 expert to answer that question. I mean, we could -- we could see an

17 explosion outside and fire following immediately after. None of us are

18 experts and we would be able to say that the fire that we saw was --

19 followed immediately an explosion. So let him answer the question. I

20 don't think I find any objection to that.

21 MS. KORNER: Perhaps I can rephrase it.

22 Q. How did you hear, Mr. Dzonlic, about this mosque?

23 A. We heard, or rather I heard, that the Potpecinska Mosque had been

24 set on fire. I received such information in the premises of the Islamic

25 Community. It was said that on the previous day, the previous night, in

1 the evening, it was said that the Potpecinska Mosque had been set on fire.

2 We immediately went to the mosque. I don't know whether it had been hit

3 by a grenade. I don't know how it was set on fire. I really couldn't

4 comment on this. But I entered and part of the mosque's roof had

5 collapsed, the entrance -- the door, the wooden door, had burnt down, and

6 part of the ceiling as you entered the mosque, this part which was also

7 wooden, had collapsed and I know that the mufti was very sad about this.

8 It was the first mosque that had been touched, so to speak, and damaged in

9 this way.

10 Q. Now, were you asked last week sometime to have look at a video?

11 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, I emphasise this was a video made

12 in 1993.

13 Q. To see if you could identify the mosque that you were talking

14 about?

15 A. Yes. This was requested, and I identified the mosque which I'm

16 now referring to.

17 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at a short clip and just see if you

18 can tell us, A, is this the mosque, and, B, whether the damage that you

19 noticed was different.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MS. KORNER: Right.

22 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Dzonlic, when you see the mosque? I hope

23 it's in the right place. Is that it?

24 A. That's mosque but it wasn't in this state when I -- when I went

25 there, at the time.

1 MS. KORNER: Can we pause the film for a moment?

2 Q. We can see that it's virtually completely demolished. How much of

3 this sort of damage had already been done? I mean what was standing?

4 A. At the time, the mosque had all its walls intact. Only part of

5 the roof, perhaps the right side, when you enter the mosque, the right

6 side of the roof, half of the roof, had collapsed. It had fallen down.

7 And all the surrounding walls were intact.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. In this image, they are completely destroyed.

10 Q. So before you left Banja Luka in 1993, in February of 1993, the

11 damage wasn't as great as this?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's fine. I want to move now to --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MS. KORNER: I want to move to some documents. Your Honours, I

16 don't know whether this would be perhaps an appropriate place to take a

17 break.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

19 MS. KORNER: I think it might. I want to double check that I've

20 got the numbers right as well.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can break now?

22 MS. KORNER: Yes, if we could.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And we will reconvene --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we will break now and we will reconvene in 25

1 minutes' time. Will that be enough for you?

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, certainly. It just seems to be a

3 convenient place to check the documents.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And that will be our break. Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the first document that I'm going to

9 look at is, I've checked this time, it's right, it's been numbered P202.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

11 MS. KORNER: Its disclosure number was 416 and it's in volume 2

12 of the Banja Luka documents in my copy under divider 26, the second set of

13 dividers, 26. Your Honour, may I say straight away most of these are

14 documents that the witness hasn't seen before but what I'm doing is going

15 to ask him about entries and say what knowledge he has of certain events.

16 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, I'm now going to ask you to have a look again at some

17 of the documents you looked at when you made your second statement to the

18 investigator. Could you be handed, please, the B/C/S version so the

19 number is P202B, I think. Now, before you were shown investigator, I

20 think it's right you had not seen that document before?

21 A. No, I hadn't seen it.

22 Q. However, if you go to the last page, it's signed by Stojan

23 Zupljanin.

24 A. Yes, I see it.

25 Q. Did you know who Stojan Zupljanin was at the time in 1992?

1 A. I knew that he was chief of the Security Services Centre based in

2 Banja Luka, and I also knew that he was a member of the SDS.

3 Q. Were you aware at any stage that he was a member of the Regional

4 ARK Crisis Staff?

5 A. At the time, I didn't know that.

6 Q. Now, in paragraph 23, which we can see on the fourth page, you

7 will see an instruction, "In all our activities we are obliged to observe

8 all measures and apply all procedures ordered by the Crisis Staff of the

9 Autonomous Region." From your knowledge, as you described to us, of how a

10 crisis staff would operate, were you surprised to see that the police were

11 saying they had to obey procedures ordered by the Crisis Staff of the

12 Autonomous Region?

13 A. I am not surprised. I was not surprised when I saw that the

14 police has to observe the decisions of the Crisis Staff, because it is my

15 opinion, and also on the basis of documents which I had and which I was

16 able to see, at the top of the pyramid of power was the staff of the

17 Autonomous Region and all bodies had to execute the decisions of the

18 Crisis Staff, and to report back on tasks carried out and conclusions

19 implemented further to instructions from the Crisis Staff. And I know

20 that they placed themselves above the official organs of authority.

21 Q. And by "the official organs of authority," what do you mean?

22 A. I am referring to the various secretariats within the municipality

23 such as the Secretariat for National Defence, for the economy, the police,

24 the assembly of the municipality, the executive council of the

25 municipality. I'm thinking of those bodies of authority.

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1 Q. I'm going to come to the executive council at a later stage. The

2 second part of that paragraph refers to a deadline for weapons surrender

3 on May the 11th, 1992. Do you remember anything about a deadline for the

4 surrender of weapons in May?

5 A. Specifically, I cannot remember this particular date, but I do

6 know that there were certain deadlines regarding the surrender of weapons

7 by whoever had any and I know that this deadline was extended on a number

8 of occasions, so that it was never a fixed deadline. After that deadline,

9 there were additional ones, that is the time limit was prolonged for the

10 surrender of weapons.

11 Q. Do you know whether or not Serbs that you knew held weapons?

12 A. They did, almost all Serbs had weapons, almost all Serb that is I

13 knew had weapons.

14 Q. Do you know of your own knowledge whether any of them surrendered

15 their weapons?

16 A. I don't know that any one of them surrendered their weapons, and

17 this proclamation on the surrender of weapons applied -- or rather it was

18 responded to only by non-Serbs, those that had weapons. I don't know that

19 any one of the Serbs returned their weapons, and it would be illogical for

20 me, because they were armed. They had been armed about six months prior

21 to this, throughout that period running up to this, they had been armed.

22 So it would be illogical for them to hand back those weapons.

23 Q. How did you know that the Serbs in the six-month period had been

24 armed?

25 A. Not just six months, but I know that they applied to the local

1 communities within the municipality to take military uniforms, those that

2 didn't -- hadn't had them issued to them and that weapons were being

3 issued. And there was public talk about the Serbs being armed. It was

4 general knowledge.

5 Q. Apart from public talk or general knowledge, did you hear about

6 this from anyone who was directly involved?

7 A. I know that my colleagues who were Serbs by ethnicity were issued

8 uniforms and weapons. Behind the building where I lived, there were such

9 a centre close to the students' hostel, where they went to pick up weapons

10 and military equipment, and we Bosniaks would go to the same place to hand

11 in our military equipment to that same centre.

12 Q. Did you yourself have any weapons or military equipment?

13 A. I did have military equipment; that is, the bottom part of the

14 uniform. I was never issued a weapon. And this military uniform, which

15 was kept in a military bag, my father took it to this Rada Brnjesevic

16 centre on my behalf and was given a certificate, certifying that I had

17 returned the uniform. And I never had a weapon.

18 Q. So you didn't own a hunting rifle or anything of that nature?

19 A. No, never.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just before I move to the last part of

21 this document, can I ask, does Your Honours' copies -- do Your Honours'

22 copies have any markings by those two paragraphs?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

24 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid, if at the end of the session you hand

25 them -- we copied them by mistake from somebody else's markings. There

1 are clean copies.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Now there are additional markings.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I won't give it to you because there are additional

5 markings that I have made now.

6 MS. KORNER: Can I ask Your Honours then to note that the

7 originals do not have these markings?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: They can be substituted.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Can I know what the markings are.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Two exclamation marks. Next to paragraph 23 there

11 is an exclamation mark and the following paragraph has another exclamation

12 mark.

13 MS. KORNER: By giving evidence, which I know Mr. Ackerman hates,

14 can I say that was done by somebody in the office reading the documents.

15 It's not on the originals.

16 Q. Finally on this document, Mr. Dzonlic, could we go to the very

17 last paragraph just before the signature which is marked "AD3"? Where

18 Mr. Zupljanin was telling the centre council that a special

19 countersabotage and counterterrorist police unit of about 150 was to be

20 deployed in the regions in the most complex security operations, explains

21 where -- what the makeup of this unit will be, and then says, "Its

22 founding will be celebrated in Banja Luka at a special ceremony." Now, do

23 you remember anything about any kind of ceremony like this?

24 A. I know when the ceremony took place to celebrate the formation of

25 special police forces in Banja Luka.

1 Q. Were you present when this ceremony took place?

2 A. I was present in town, in the centre of town, next to the cultural

3 centre, at the crossroads where the cultural centre and the Bosna Hotel

4 are situated and quite a number of citizens came out into the streets to

5 greet the participants and then special police forces paraded in town. I

6 remember that vehicles passed by, equipment. We noticed, not just myself

7 but other people who were present in the streets, there was even laughter

8 because it was clear that these were really military vehicles that had

9 just been painted over into blue, the police colour, but the painting

10 wasn't done well, so one could see that these were military vehicles. I,

11 for instance, recognised the military vehicle called Pinzgauer. The

12 police never owned any such vehicle. Then also vehicles that resembled

13 tanks. But the greyish-green colour could be seen of these vehicles so

14 that people were laughing, saying, "All this is military property. It's

15 just been painted over blue." I remember that some vehicles on the

16 outside had black plastic or rubber covers over the vehicles. I also know

17 that helicopters were flying over and they claimed that these were all the

18 materiel belonging to the police. But due to what I've just said, it is

19 my firm conviction that this was all military materiel that had just been

20 camouflaged and painted over to appear to be police materiel.

21 Q. And what about the members of this special squad? Did they have

22 any special uniforms?

23 A. There were a variety of uniforms. They were not like the police

24 uniforms worn by policemen in the streets. There were camouflage,

25 bluish-grey uniforms, plain blue uniforms, but they differed from the

1 uniforms worn by the regular police.

2 Q. Did you see over the next -- I'm sorry, can I go back for a

3 moment? This document is dated the 21st of May -- no, well there is a

4 handwritten note so -- it's the 20th -- I'm so sorry, I'll start again.

5 This meeting was held on the 6th of May and the special display was on the

6 12th of May. Did you see the members of this squad in Banja Luka after

7 May?

8 A. I cannot remember.

9 Q. All right. If we could leave that document, please, and move to

10 the next series, Your Honours, which are the official gazettes of the

11 Autonomous Region of Krajina. The number is P227, disclosure number

12 3.69. I'm again going to ask that the witness be given the version in

13 B/C/S.

14 Q. Now, again, Mr. Dzonlic, did you ever see this Official Gazette in

15 any publication in 1992 itself?

16 A. Yes. I did see this. I think I saw this document, or rather --

17 maybe not the entire document. But a part of the document. I didn't see

18 it in this form, in the original.

19 Q. Are you referring to the document you spoke about yesterday, that

20 is to say one of the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The Official Gazettes, who gets copies of the Official Gazettes?

23 A. Copies of Official Gazettes were distributed to all beneficiaries

24 of budgetary resources, to economic entities, and other public

25 institutions, establishments, schools, the PTT, the companies that were

1 under state control.

2 Q. Were they ever published in newspapers or any other media?

3 A. No. It was not published in the daily newspapers.

4 Q. Now, that first decision that we can see, the actual gazette was

5 issued in Banja Luka on the 5th of June of 1992, but if you turn over --

6 just checking --

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm just checking to see whether the

8 B/C/S version is like ours and turns over the page or whether it's on the

9 same -- yes.

10 Q. The first decision is dated the 4th of May, 1992; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And if we look at paragraph 1, it's an order for general public

13 mobilisation?

14 A. Yes, I see it.

15 Q. Is that the order that you were talking about yesterday when you

16 explained about what had happened to people who failed to respond?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It's signed by a Lieutenant Colonel Milorad Sajic, secretary of

19 the National Defence Secretariat. Did you know Lieutenant Colonel Sajic

20 or anything about him?

21 A. I didn't know him, but I had heard his name.

22 Q. As what?

23 A. I don't know the context but I know that I had heard the surname

24 and first name mentioned, Milorad Sajic. And I know it had to do with the

25 military, but specifically, I don't know how I heard it or where I heard

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1 it, but it's a familiar name to me and it had something to do with the

2 military.

3 Q. Can we move to the second decision in this gazette, dated the

4 following day, the 5th of May, which is a decision on the formation of the

5 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina signed by the president

6 of the executive council, Nikola Erceg. Did you know Nikola Erceg?

7 A. Yes, I did know Nikola Erceg.

8 Q. And how did you know him?

9 A. He was my neighbour. He lived two floors below me, and he also

10 worked in the company in which my father and brother worked in Jelsingrad

11 and I knew him as a neighbour because we would see one another virtually

12 on a daily basis as we came to and from home. So he lived two floors

13 below me.

14 Q. It's signed in a function as president of the executive council.

15 Could you just explain to the Court what was the executive council?

16 A. It was the executive council of the Crisis Staff was,

17 conditionally speaking, the government of the Crisis Staff. The operative

18 body of the Crisis Staff.

19 Q. Before the existence of the Crisis Staff, did the executive

20 council exist?

21 A. Within the structure of authority, there was the Municipal

22 Assembly of Banja Luka municipality and there was the executive council of

23 the municipal assembly or the government of the municipal assembly.

24 Q. So the executive council, you say, was the operative body of the

25 Crisis Staff, and before that, do we take it the operative body, then of

1 the municipal assembly?

2 A. Before it existed, and at this time, too, there was an executive

3 council of the municipality of Banja Luka and of every other municipality.

4 Q. When you say "operative," what did it actually do?

5 A. An operative body is a body which implements conclusions and

6 decisions of another body, in this particular case, the Crisis Staff. It

7 also supervises, implements, monitors, and reports the crisis -- reports

8 to the Crisis Staff on the implementation of assigned tasks.

9 Q. Would it have any authority to act on its own? In other words,

10 without a decision either by the assembly or in this case, the Crisis

11 Staff?

12 A. No, no. It could not act independently. It executes the tasks

13 assigned to it by the Crisis Staff and that is why it is responsible to

14 the Crisis Staff for the execution and implementation of all conclusions.

15 It cannot act independently without the approval and a decision by the

16 Crisis Staff.

17 Q. Would it have any kind of delegated authority? In other words, to

18 make decisions within a certain limited sphere?

19 A. Possibly, it could take decisions for operational reasons.

20 Sometimes the Crisis Staff may not be able to meet, a large number of

21 people making up the Crisis Staff could not perhaps be convened and then

22 it is envisaged that this operative body, in extraordinary circumstances,

23 when something is urgent, may meet and take a decision. But subsequently

24 the approval of the Crisis Staff would have to be required. And I think

25 this executive council was formed for that precise reason, to be more

1 efficient and operational. I don't know how many members sat on the

2 council but probably fewer than on the Crisis Staff.

3 Q. Yes. Now, finally, on the question of Mr. Erceg, did you ever go

4 and speak to him about anything that you had seen in Banja Luka?

5 A. Yes, I did go to see him when I saw at the railway station in

6 Banja Luka seven carriages for livestock full of people. And after

7 learning about these facts, I went to the railway station and I saw those

8 carriages, and I saw people with their hands stretched out from those

9 carriages. I know it was hot. It was summertime. There were two women

10 on behalf of Merhamet as well, and we tried to approach those people and

11 we asked to bring them food and water. However, the military and the

12 police were present and they wouldn't allow us to approach them. And one

13 of the policemen said that we should, if we wanted to do anything for

14 these people, that we had to address Nikola Erceg. So I went directly to

15 see Nikola Erceg in the municipality building, which is across the road

16 from the cultural centre, and Nikola Erceg had his office there on the

17 second or the third floor, and I asked to be received by him, and he did

18 receive me, and I told him about these people, and asked that Merhamet be

19 allowed to give those people food. However, he answered that those people

20 were in transit and that he was not competent for those people and that

21 those people would be going to Doboj. We learnt -- I didn't see or hear,

22 but I heard that 11 people had died, and I said that one day somebody

23 would have to be held accountable for this. But he said that they could

24 do nothing about it because those people were just passing. And that was

25 the contact I had with Nikola Erceg.

1 Q. So you told him that 11 people had died?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Can we just look at the list that is printed there?

4 And just let me ask you about some of the people on it. You told us about

5 Brdjanin, Sajic you'd heard the name of, Kupresanin, Vojo Kupresanin, did

6 you know who he was?

7 A. I heard of him but I don't know who he was.

8 Q. In what context can you remember had you heard of him?

9 A. I think he had something to do with the police, as far as I'm able

10 to remember.

11 Q. All right. Erceg you've told us about. Radic you've told us

12 about as well. Dr. Radislav Vukic, is that the man you were talking about

13 yesterday who made the speech about the people in the hospital, Muslims in

14 the hospital?

15 A. Yes, yes, yes. He is the one. I think he was president of the

16 Banja Luka SDS.

17 Q. Dr. Milovan Milanovic, did you know who he was?

18 A. I had heard of him, and he had a holiday home on the seaside

19 close to the holiday home my father had near the town of Sibanik. I know

20 what he looks like but I never had any personal contact with him. He was

21 a member of the SDS and he was working at the clinical centre in Banja

22 Luka.

23 Q. Was that different -- is that the same place that Dr. Vukic

24 worked, or different?

25 A. It's the same clinical centre, but there were departments for

1 anaesthesia, internal medicine, gynaecology and so on but it's the same

2 institution.

3 Q. You've told us of your dealings with General Talic. Apart from

4 that meeting that you've described to us, did you ever have any other

5 meetings with General Talic?

6 A. On one occasion, when I was going to the command, to see about the

7 permit, to see whether they had granted us authorisation to go to Manjaca,

8 I saw General Talic, but we didn't have any contact.

9 Q. Then Major Jokic, do you know who he was?

10 A. I don't.

11 Q. Stojan Zupljanin you've told us about. Now, the next name --

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I make the point -- we are going to

13 get a new translation done, but the name as translated is -- or as written

14 in English is Dr. Kuzmanovic.

15 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, can you tell us, please, what name is written in the

16 B/C/S version by the number 11?

17 A. It says Dragolub Mirjanic.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not at all clear how that happened.

19 This went in for translation and it was only picked up by Mr. Dzonlic when

20 he saw this document the other day, but we will have to send it back for a

21 correction. But the name should read Dr. Dragolub Mirjanic.

22 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, the next name, Mr. Puvacic who was he?

23 A. As far as I can remember, he was maybe a Prosecutor or perhaps a

24 judge at the higher court in Banja Luka.

25 Q. Mr. Jovo Rosic?

1 A. He also worked in the judiciary. He was also either a Judge or a

2 Prosecutor. I know this about them but I can't say whether he was a Judge

3 or a Prosecutor.

4 Q. Mr. Dubocanin, did you know him or Mr. Stevandic?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. Or the last two names on the list, Bulic and Kesic?

7 A. I don't know anything about either of them, apart from the last

8 one, when I saw one document, Nedeljko Kesic was either the chief of state

9 security, as they called it, but I didn't know that, the surname Kesic is

10 one that is familiar to me in Banja Luka. I don't know him. But I

11 subsequently found out from documents that he was the chief of state

12 security in Banja Luka.

13 Q. Now, next, can we move to the decision number 4? That's the

14 fourth decision dated or headed at its meeting of the 8th of May. Now,

15 item number 5 states that, "It is hereby requested that the military

16 territorial authorities of the JNA start activities immediately in order

17 to save the Serbian people in the areas along the most threatened front

18 lines, Bosanski Brod to Derventa and Kupres to Glamoc to Bosansko Grahovo

19 from genocide."

20 What does that conclusion suggest to you, Mr. Dzonlic?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I think it speaks for itself.

22 It's clear what it says and I don't think we need to be favoured with his

23 interpretation of it. It's clear on its face.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I still want to hear the -- Ms. Korner

25 finish her question because --

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1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, well, Your Honour, I can rephrase the

2 question.

3 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, can you throw any light on the events which led to

4 this particular conclusion? If that satisfies Mr. Ackerman.

5 A. During that period, and this can also be seen from this

6 conclusion, I know that at the front lines, where there was fighting, from

7 Bosanski Brod to Derventa, at the time the Serbian forces had suffered

8 heavy casualties in the surroundings of Derventa. I remember that they

9 said that there was heavy fighting around Plehan, that's what they called

10 the area, as far as I know. There was a Catholic monastery and a church

11 there. Given that they had suffered heavy casualties and that they were

12 unable to break through the line in these areas and the main objective of

13 breaking through that line was to break through the corridor in the

14 direction towards Belgrade, they would say, "If only we break through in

15 Plehan, we will then take the corridor and everything shall be solved."

16 And for these reasons, they adopted such a conclusion and asked the organs

17 of the JNA to assist them.

18 Q. So the Bosnian Serb forces that had suffered losses were separate,

19 were they, from the JNA that's being referred to here?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If we can move, then, please, to the -- I'm sorry, can we just for

22 one moment stay on that document? Item number 7, says, "In the future,

23 tickets for flights to --"

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. de Roux?

25 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a slight

1 problem concerning the interpretation in response to the question as to

2 whether the forces which assisted this offensive were JNA forces, or

3 whether they were the same forces from Republika Srpska, the witness's

4 response to this question was yes, and the interpretation I heard,

5 according to the interpretation, the reply I heard was no. I would simply

6 like to know whether the response to this question is yes or no.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner, tell me.

8 MS. KORNER: I don't know, Your Honour. I'll ask the question

9 again.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I think, and if the witness has

11 understood, as I would expect him to have, the observation made by

12 Maitre de Roux, I think he's in a position to clarify it to us without the

13 need for Ms. Korner to put the question again. Have you understood what

14 Mr. de Roux stated?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I have understood the question

16 and I said yes to the Prosecutor's question. I said that the forces were

17 separate. The Serbian forces were separate from the forces of the JNA,

18 and I said yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I have in my -- on my monitor, any way.

20 MS. KORNER: Perhaps we just better expand.

21 Q. The Bosnian Serb forces who had suffered these losses, where were

22 they drawn from?

23 A. These forces came from -- we called them the Serbian forces. We

24 called them paramilitary forces. They came from Bosnia and Herzegovina,

25 from various towns and mostly from parts of Bosnian Krajina, and also

1 these paramilitary forces, these so-called paramilitary forces, these

2 forces were irregular ones from Serbia, as I said, and I said that I saw

3 them in Banja Luka, members of Seselj's group and of Arkan's group, and

4 there were forces of the Yugoslav People's Army and, for us, they were

5 aggressive forces, forces of occupation. Because from the date of the

6 independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, we thought that all other forces

7 that weren't under the control of the government of the Republic of Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina were paramilitary forces.

9 Q. Yes. All right, I think you've explained. So as far as you were

10 aware, and I should ask you, where were you getting this information from?

11 A. On the basis of what we saw in the field, there were forces which

12 had come from Serbia, and secondly, for us, the legal organs of the

13 independent and -- independent state of Bosnia and Herzegovina that had

14 been recognised, the legal forces, were the only legal organs of

15 authority, and we thought that all military and police forces, which were

16 under the control of the government of the Republic of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina, after its independence had been recognised, we thought that

18 such forces were regular ones and that all other forces were paramilitary

19 forces.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner?

21 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, perhaps I can just conclude this

22 topic.

23 Q. How did you know, however, which forces outside the regular JNA

24 were engaged in this, at that stage, losing struggle? In other words, did

25 you get it from the media or from people who were there?

1 A. From the media, I found out that they were Serbian forces, that

2 Serbian forces were at certain front lines, because there were reports

3 that Serbian units were at the front lines of -- from Bosanski Brod to

4 Derventa. They didn't mention paramilitary forces in the media. The

5 paramilitary forces from Serbia were not mentioned but this was known.

6 This was, so to speak, a public secret. In the town we would see certain

7 members of paramilitary forces and they did not resemble units of the

8 Serbian army, and we knew that they had come from Serbia.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you Mr. Dzonlic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'd like you to remind the witness

12 before he leaves that he is not to discuss his testimony with anyone

13 outside this Chamber at any time.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I should say there are no other

15 witnesses here at the moment, but it may be just as well.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Dzonlic, have you heard what Mr. Ackerman

17 and Ms. Korner have just stated?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, I have.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That is one of the Rules of this Tribunal, and you

20 will be violating a very important Rule should you communicate with others

21 in relation, regarding -- regarding matters that you are giving testimony

22 upon. So I take it that you will not.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am aware of my duties and thank

24 you for the warning, as to my duty.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The Trial Chamber also knows, is aware, that you are

1 a lawyer and that for sometime you were also a judge so fully understands

2 your commitment. Thank you. We will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00.

3 In the meantime, if you can come forward tomorrow morning first thing with

4 some kind of a time schedule for the rest of the next two months, the end

5 of June possibly, or end of July, before we reach the summer recess, I

6 think that would be very useful so that we can plan ahead.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have completed it. I've given a

8 copy to Ms. Korner. Ms. Fauveau has approved it. It's essentially

9 complete. I know Ms. Korner agrees with part of it, probably not all of

10 it. If you'd like, I can hand it to you now.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you discussed it with Maitre Pitron as well?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: No. Mr. Pitron I can't find. I don't know where

13 he is.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Maitre de Roux is behind and he took the joke. We

15 will reconvene tomorrow morning and we'll possibly discuss these few

16 remaining items.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've had a quick look and I'll go

18 through it this afternoon.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Thursday the 28th day of

22 February, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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