1 Tuesday, 12 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Brdjanin. Can you hear me in a
6 language that you can understand?
7 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
8 I can hear you, and I can understand you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.
10 General Talic, good morning to you. Can you hear me in a language
11 that you can understand?
12 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I
13 can hear you and understand you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
15 We can have the case called now, please. Thank you.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
17 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Appearances for the Prosecution.
19 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours, Joanna Korner, assisted
20 by Denise Gustin, case manager.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances -- good morning to you.
22 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman,
24 with Tania Radosavljevic.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Ackerman.
1 And appearances for General Talic.
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr.
3 President. Good morning, Your Honours. This is Madam Natasha
4 Fauveau-Ivanovic, assisted by Fabien Masson for General Talic.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
6 So I understand, having received this photocopy from an extract
7 from Blackstone's Criminal Practice, that Mr. Ackerman, I suppose, wants
8 to say something.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: No. I just wanted to bring you the actual written
10 version of what I was inartfully trying to explain to you yesterday.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I thought you were trying to outclass
13 MR. ACKERMAN: No, I couldn't even try to do that.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
15 Are there any preliminaries that we need to debate -- discuss this
16 morning? Nothing.
17 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So usher, please, could you bring in the witness.
19 And we are not yet in closed session, so we'll go in closed session now
20 before the witness comes in, and I think we have to bring down or pull
21 down the curtains.
22 [Closed session]
13 Pages 3092-3177 – redacted – closed session
11 [Open session]
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, really it was two matters, one which I
13 suddenly remembered. Your Honour asked Mr. Ackerman yesterday about the
14 protective measures motion, and he was going to give you a reply today.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no objection.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau had already expressed her no
17 objection yesterday, because actually, since I heard nothing from you this
18 morning, Mr. Ackerman, I just placed it in the tray to be filed awaiting a
19 response from -- which I was expecting from Mr. Ackerman. So we will deal
20 with that straight away, and you will have the decision probably tomorrow.
21 MS. KORNER: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
23 MS. KORNER: I'm grateful.
24 Your Honour suggested, and we haven't forgotten that we discussed
25 the matters raised by Mr. Ackerman in terms of how Rule 92 evidence is to
1 be treated. And I think the answer is that Mr. Ackerman is going to
2 prepare something, give it to us, and we'll try and reach an agreement.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: That is very practical. Thank you.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the second matter is literally the
5 matter of timetabling. We had lined up for this week three witnesses.
6 That is the one who's just finished, the one to come, and the one after.
7 Well, I mean, when I say lined up, that was sometime ago. But these three
8 men have all been here for some time now. It's clear from any showing
9 that this witness is going to take the rest of the week, I think.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely.
11 MS. KORNER: It is also clear, I think, that the witness
12 afterwards, who's also in closed session, is likely to take quite some
13 time as well. We were originally intending for three shortish, by
14 comparison, witnesses to come next week. Because we have to notify VWS
15 with sufficient notice, I -- at lunchtime -- at the last break today,
16 instructed the person in charge that we wouldn't be needing another three
17 witnesses for next week.
18 Your Honour, I hope that's not going to prove unduly pessimistic.
19 But if in the event we finish the third -- or the one after this witness
20 -- quicker, there are still a number of matters outstanding that we could
21 deal with. For example, the question of the document Variant A and B has
22 raised its head again. So if there's time left over --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
24 MS. KORNER: But I hope that is --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I anticipate this witness, as you suggest,
1 Ms. Korner, to keep us busy the whole -- the entire -- the rest of the
2 week for sure. I mean, it's -- I've gone through his statement, and it's
3 going to be a long testimony.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: For sure. For sure. I'm not quite sure about the
6 next one, but --
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he's made a second --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know. Because I received it --
9 MS. KORNER: Today.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yesterday.
11 MS. KORNER: Yesterday.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yesterday. But I haven't been through that second
13 statement as yet. I haven't read it as yet.
14 This one is definitely going to keep us busy the entire week for
16 And I suppose you have been made aware that on Friday the sitting
17 is in the afternoon and not in the morning. I am going to check one thing
18 which has been --
19 THE REGISTRAR: Courtroom III.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Courtroom II or III?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Courtroom III.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I was told it was probably in Courtroom II, and that
23 was not the understanding that I was given before when I had agreed to
24 shift the sitting to the afternoon. So we will be working in Courtroom
1 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I'm happy to say it causes me no
2 problems at all this Friday.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think this is all. No?
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that is it, as far as we're concerned.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, with regard to the upcoming witnesses,
7 the current one - I'll call Witness 1 - I think it's virtually inevitable
8 that we won't finish with him until probably the close of the session on
9 Monday, which would leave us then three days for Witness 2. And I think
10 the chances are rather slim that we can finish Witness 2 by the close of
11 business on Thursday. And I don't have any problem with that witness
12 coming back after the break to finish cross-examination, but it is a bit
13 burdensome. And I don't know -- I don't know how Your Honours
14 want -- Ms. Korner, I think, is optimistic that we're going to finish with
15 him next week. And the way it looks to me, with this witness, we'll be at
16 least as long as we were with the last one. And if that is the case, I
17 don't think we're going to get through all of these -- both of these by
18 the end of next week.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: My --
20 MR. ACKERMAN: We can all try, but ...
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- I definitely agree that this is going to
22 be a long testimony. However, I hesitate to agree or disagree with what
23 you have just suggested, because I would await to see what type of a
24 witness he is. And he seems to be very much -- although he's sitting down
25 and he's very much on his feet ready to trigger off. So I would wait and
1 see how long it takes him to answer questions, because I have a suspicion
2 that it's not -- he's not going to be very loquacious, but let's see
3 anyway. And then by the end of this week -- or at least by Thursday, we
4 should be in a position to see where we are with this witness.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, though, the Witness number 2 has also
6 been here now for a week. Even if he has to go part heard over Easter
7 adjournment, I would ask Your Honours -- otherwise, he has to go back
8 again having wasted a week here, and we have to bring up the other
9 witnesses who are shorter on any showing. One is crime based. And I
10 understand from both Mr. Ackerman and Madam Fauveau that the actual
11 killing itself is not going to be disputed. It's the circumstances.
12 So -- but I don't -- I think it would be -- I would ask, even if we don't
13 finish him, that we start the next witness.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll play it by the ear and see how it goes,
15 anyway, because I get the suspicion that this witness will -- will be
16 forthcoming without major difficulties. But still it will be a long
17 testimony, I reckon.
18 Okay. So that's it for today. We'll -- I wish you a pleasant
19 afternoon and evening, and we'll meet tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
22 at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
23 the 13th day of March, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.