1 Wednesday, 13 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Brdjanin. I would like to know
6 whether you are hearing me in a language that you can understand.
7 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I can
8 hear you and I understand you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: General Talic, I put the same question to you. Are
10 you hearing me in a language that you can understand?
11 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I
12 can hear you in a language I can understand.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We can have the case summoned now.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
15 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Brdjanin and Talic.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution?
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this morning, Joanna Korner; hiding
18 behind me, Andrew Cayley; and Denise Gustin, case manager.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you.
20 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman,
22 along with Tania Radosavljevic.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Ackerman.
24 Maitre de Roux, appearances for General Talic?
25 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Xavier
1 de Roux, Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic and Fabien Masson.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you as well.
3 Yes, Ms. Korner, we are in open session.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, whilst we are in open session, and
5 before we continue with the witness, can I mention something in relation
6 to the documents that I want to show the witness? I had thought that I
7 had very carefully checked all the documents in the binders which related
8 to the radio station. Needless to say, I left out two, which was
9 discovered yesterday by a member of the team.
10 Your Honour, I would want -- may I say the witness hasn't looked
11 at them either, so if Your Honour allows me, he's going to be looking at
12 them for maybe for the first time. They are -- at the moment, there are
13 two documents, one numbered Exhibit 214, and -- P214, and the other P226,
14 which are in the binders. We've given copies to the Defence and copies
15 for Your Honours. And the third document was not in the binders but was
16 disclosed. It bears the disclosure number 2.399.
17 Your Honour, I'm perfectly well aware that I haven't given advance
18 notice to the Defence or Your Honours of these documents. I would wish to
19 put them in. I don't anticipate that we will reach them today because I'm
20 going to be taking the documents in chronological order but, Your Honour,
21 my application would be, despite the fact that no advance notice has been
22 given, I would wish to put these documents to the witness.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, do I understand you well, while the
24 first two of these documents have an exhibit number already, the third one
25 hasn't? No?
1 MS. KORNER: Correct, all it's got at the moment is the disclosure
3 JUDGE AGIUS: 2.399.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's take this matter first. Mr. Ackerman,
6 do you have any major problems with this?
7 MR. ACKERMAN: The only problem I have right now, Your Honour, is
8 that I don't have P214. I was given 226 and 2.399, but I don't have 214.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. P214 is disclosure number 3.341.
10 MS. KORNER: That's right.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: I do have it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. I have no objection, Your Honour, to any of
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
16 Maitre de Roux?
17 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] I have no problems with these
18 documents whatsoever.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci. So we can, I suppose, bring in the witness,
20 or do you have anything else to raise?
21 MS. KORNER: No, I don't, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
23 So we'll go into closed session now, please.
24 [Closed session]
13 Pages 3186-3272 – redacted – closed session
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And there is also one matter that the Chamber would
16 like to raise.
17 And also, Ms. Korner, you have tendered [redacted] but not completely.
18 MS. KORNER: Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I thought I had
19 forgotten to do that. Can I ask that be marked Exhibit P480.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: 480?
21 MS. KORNER: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how it will be. Mr. Ackerman?
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I want to return to the 90(H) matter
24 just very briefly. I have filed my motion. The Prosecution has
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Also General Talic's Defence.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: What I want to say to the Chamber - and if you want
3 me to say it in writing then I need to get your permission to respond to
4 the Prosecutor - but I've changed my view slightly. And that is that I am
5 impressed by the proposition that it might be either difficult or
6 impossible for a Trial Chamber to declare a rule void, and I think the
7 more reasonable way to approach it, and what I probably should have
8 requested in my motion, was the proposition that where there is a conflict
9 between a rule and an article of the Statute, that the article of the
10 Statute must prevail, and that wouldn't involve declaring any part of a
11 rule void but simply giving preference to the Statute as controlling in
12 that kind of a situation. If you'd like me to put that in writing, I'd be
13 happy to do that, but that's -- if this is going to be certified to the
14 Appeals Court, that's actually the argument I want to make when we get to
15 that point, and I don't think it would be appropriate for me to do that
16 without having first brought it to your attention.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest that you do that. At least for the
18 record, it would be better. The other matter that -- do you want to raise
19 any matter, Ms. Korner?
20 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: There is one small thing that we have discussed and
22 we would like to raise with you. You will recall that earlier on, I think
23 last week it was, you had very kindly sat down and agreed amongst
24 yourselves to indicate your preferences as far as breaks that will be
25 required for you to reorganise yourselves between now and the end of
1 July. We have gone through your suggestions very carefully and we agree
2 with practically all of them. There is one reservation that we would like
3 to make and bring to your attention.
4 You are proposing that this Chamber does not sit on the 3rd, 4th
5 and 5th and then on the 8th and 9th of July. In other words, it would be
6 the 3rd through the 9th of July. What prompts us actually to deal with
7 this is that we notice that immediately after, there are three days which
8 will be dedicated for the Plenary, and then there is a Saturday and a
9 Sunday, which would mean that basically we would have five plus seven, 12
10 days' break in the beginning of July, following basically a long weekend
11 at the end of June when you have -- when we have the court maintenance.
12 We were proposing -- going to propose to you that the five days,
13 actual working days, that you had proposed as -- for a break, that is the
14 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th and 9th, will be moved to the end of the month, namely
15 29th, 30th and 31st of July and then 1st and 2nd. What would the
16 advantages of such a shift mean? It would mean that you would still have
17 five days' break in the second day -- second week of July. We won't have
18 any because we have the Plenary, but you can have five days there, and it
19 would enable you to go home for your summer recess holidays a good week in
20 advance than you -- what you would normally do. In other words, the
21 summer recess starts on the 3rd of August right through the 23rd of
22 August. This way, the summer recess, for the intents and purposes of this
23 trial, would practically start on the 27th of July, that being a Saturday.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour that particular holiday I assented to
25 because I didn't want to upset the great American holiday. I'm not
1 anxious to have that holiday. I didn't ask for the queen's silver
2 whatever it is, jubilee, birthday, nor did Mr. Cayley. My anxiety is that
3 we sit as often as possible, but Mr. Ackerman - and as I say, I didn't
4 want to upset American sensibilities - asked for that time off. I'm very
5 concerned about trying to get through the evidence in this case. So I'm
6 not asking for that break. It's really Mr. Ackerman.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, our suggestion is forget about 3rd, 4th,
8 5th, 8th, and 9th. We will work on those days. I'm sure that your
9 patriotism, Mr. Ackerman, will not suffer because of that.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour. I thought it was particularly
11 appropriate -- I'll accept your change. I thought it was particularly
12 appropriate this year to emphasise our separation from the British, in
13 view of this ridiculous Rule 90(H)(ii), and give you some of the reasons
14 why we might have done that. That would be one for sure.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's very kind of Your Honours to give
16 us that extra week, but if that is simply to replace that earlier holiday
17 then we wouldn't ask for it. If Your Honours don't have any particular
18 reason for giving that break at the end of July, then I'm perfectly
19 content to work through.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: As I've said, Your Honours, I'm happy with the
22 change you've suggested, and I think it's appropriate.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Maitre de Roux, the 14 juillet is safe because it's
24 a Sunday this year, so you don't have to worry about that.
25 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a Sunday. No. We agree
1 with the proposals that you have made, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, we will move those five days to the end
3 of the month and we will leave it at that.
4 MS. KORNER: So that's a month's break for the summer.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically, basically. It's the same amount of days
6 but instead of stopping for 12 days -- because actually, as proposed
7 initially, there would be five days off in the first week of July, seven
8 days off in the second week of July, and three days off in the third week
9 of July.
10 MS. KORNER: I don't want any of that. I mean literally, Your
11 Honours, what I'm saying is from the point of view of the Prosecution,
12 the -- we agreed to the suggestion made by Mr. Ackerman because it was
13 the 4th of July, but what we are saying is there is no necessity to have
14 these breaks and we could get on.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: The whole idea of having five, 12, 15 out of 21 days
16 off in the first three weeks of July is a little bit -- so this way you
17 will enjoy --
18 MS. KORNER: I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying no breaks other
19 than the Plenary.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But breaks are necessary too for everyone. We also
21 have to liaise with our legal staff at the end of each month in
22 particular, to --
23 MS. KORNER: All right. I'm simply making the point, that's all.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Making sure that all the summaries are in order,
25 that the classification of bits and pieces of evidence under the various
1 charges, we also have to do that from the very beginning. Otherwise, if
2 we leave that to accumulate, we will never get there. Okay. At this
3 point in time we will be able to formalise this and we will have it in
5 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, there is just one other matter
6 which I meant to mention yesterday and I can do in one minute. I had a
7 look at the indictment, as clearly Madam Fauveau has been doing yesterday,
8 over the mosques in Banja Luka.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: They are all 1993 ones.
10 MS. KORNER: Well, they are all destroyed, they are not damaged,
11 but it appears the one mosque that everybody agrees was severely damaged
12 isn't listed. I'm merely giving notice at this stage that I will be
13 applying at some stage towards the end of this case to add that particular
14 mosque to the indictment. As to what the others -- the evidence -- there
15 is still more evidence to come.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: But you are absolutely right.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let me not make any comments at this stage.
19 Okay. So I thank you all. Thanks also to the interpreters, as usual.
20 Without you, we would be in a big mess in here. And my apologies if
21 sometimes we make your lives difficult.
22 We will resume our labours tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
24 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
25 the 14th day of March, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.