1 Monday, 15 April 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Madam Registrar, could
6 you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,
8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. As usual, I
10 put the same question. Can you hear me in a language that you can
12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your
13 Honours. I can hear you and understand you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.
15 General Talic, good afternoon to you, can you hear me in a
16 language that you can understand?
17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
18 I can hear you and understand you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
20 Appearances for the Prosecution.
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Nicholas Koumjian
22 with Ann Sutherland and Denise Gustin.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
24 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman,
1 along with Milka Maglov, co-counsel, and Tania Radosavljevic, legal
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
4 And appearances for General Talic.
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your
6 Honours. My name is Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic. And I represent General
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, to you. What happened to Maitre de
10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Maitre de Roux will join us
11 this Wednesday.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you happy with the situation, General Talic?
13 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] I think that my counsel could
14 be present more often.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, I think you have heard what
16 General Talic said. Pass on the message to Maitre de Roux. We can't
17 carry on like this. There's going to come a point in time when I will
18 take further steps.
19 Thank you, General Talic. You may sit down.
20 I have heard that there is a slight -- not exactly problem. A
21 small hitch with regard to one of the next -- one of the future
22 witnesses. I think the one after this one. So I think it best to go into
23 private session for a while. We'll discuss that particular request made
24 by that witness before we proceed with the testimony of the current
1 Do you agree, Mr. --
2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. I just had a couple other very small
3 housekeeping matters.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Well, let's start with those, then.
5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Ms. Korner asked me to make sure that all parties
6 had received our list of the witnesses that we were asking 92 bis on for
7 the Sanski Most municipality. I've confirmed with Defence counsel that
8 they've received it. And I imagine -- I guess the Chamber has also.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I have at least. I suppose you have as well.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm now wondering if there is some recent list
13 within the last few day that is replaced one that we got weeks ago or ...
14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. This is not weeks ago. This is last
15 Friday, I think.
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think actually we didn't file a formal
17 notification, but we notified everyone. We just wanted to make sure that
18 it was sufficient.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: All I can do is assume that I have it. I think I
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: The actual statements were handed over last week to
22 the Chamber.
23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll check better, Mr. Koumjian, to be precise.
25 And I suppose the Defence will do the same.
1 Madam Fauveau, I suppose you will check too?
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I remember, the
3 Prosecutor gave us a list on 25th of February, containing the witness list
4 of Sanski Most witnesses. And on that list was indicated for which
5 witnesses they will ask the admission of statements
6 in application of 92 bis. And if I remember well, the Defence of
7 General Talic opposed this in a motion on the 4th of March.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Again, could you please liaise, Mr. Koumjian,
9 with the Defence to make sure that we are talking of the same documents.
10 Because I'm not quite sure that we are.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can I just make sure by stating the witness numbers
12 that we're requesting right now in court.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
14 MR. KOUMJIAN: And that is 7.51, 7.120, 7.130, and 7.146.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And these are 92 bis.
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. Those are our applications for 92 bis.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours are aware that there is pending a
19 motion regarding 92 bis, that --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: The guidelines --
21 MR. ACKERMAN: That would affect how one might deal with those.
22 And I'm not pushing the Chamber in any way to decide it. I just --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We're not exactly very keen on -- anyway, we'll talk
24 about it at some future point in time. But the idea of providing further
25 guidelines is not exactly very appealing at the present moment to the
1 Trial Chamber. But we are prepared to meet you halfway at some point in
2 time, and we'll discuss it later on in the week.
3 MR. KOUMJIAN: The other brief matter is that Ms. Korner asked me
4 to bring up is, last Friday we addressed the issue of the journalist and
5 the challenge to the summons. Ms. Korner has been in contact with the
6 counsel for the journalist. And on behalf of that counsel, she would make
7 a -- or we are making an oral request for the transcripts. They've
8 requested it. Rather than making them file a formal motion, Your Honour
9 mentioned last time that either they could file a motion or we could on
10 their behalf. I'm requesting the transcript. I think the other --
11 although it was in closed session, it was for the protection of the
12 witness that the counsel is representing. So I don't see a reason that he
13 shouldn't get the transcript.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?
15 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no objection at all.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
18 continues] ... objection, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So the -- shall I consider it a request from
20 the Prosecution?
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay so your request is being granted.
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not in a position to identify the transcripts,
25 as such. I suppose that you will liaise with the Registry, identify them,
1 and those will be the transcripts that you are authorised to make
2 available to counsel, Mr. Robinson, if I remember well, even if it is a
3 closed session. But if it is a closed session, only in as far as it
4 relates to Mr. Robinson's witness -- or client or clients.
5 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Just to point out, Your Honour that, the transcript
7 indicates that Ms. Fauveau made an objection. And I know she said "no
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I heard her say "no objection."
10 That's correct, Madam Fauveau. No?
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely,
12 Mr. President. There is no objection.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau. It's -- you know,
14 sometimes it happens, when -- the moment you rose to complain about the
15 interpretation last week. It has been happening, and happening, and
16 happening again.
17 Anyway, any further preliminaries?
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: I just wanted to inform the Court that we will
19 inform counsel for the witness to be here on May the 10th.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's what we agreed. Making an allowance
21 just in case we cannot meet that appointment. I think I did mention last
22 Friday that the previous two hearings -- sittings are earmarked for the
23 witnesses coming from particular humanitarian organisation, if I remember
24 well. So it's a question of organising ourselves in a way such as not to
25 get Mr. Robinson here on a Friday for nothing.
1 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: I should advise you, Your Honour, that I am today
3 filing a motion to delay the testimony of the witnesses from the
4 humanitarian organisation. It's prepared. It will be filed.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll give it all due consideration,
6 Mr. Ackerman. I thank you.
7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Ms. Sutherland will deal with the matter regarding
8 the witness that's come up.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Shall we go into private session, please,
10 Madam Registrar, for a while.
11 [Private session]
13 Page 4284 – redacted – private session
13 Page 4285 – redacted – private session
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Remind me. The witness we had last Friday -- the
12 current witness is -- in public session.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. Public session, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll go into public session now.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. We are in open session now.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think the usher can proceed in bringing in the
17 witness, please. Thank you.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Fazlagic. And welcome
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back to this Tribunal.
23 You are going to be handed the same document that you saw last
24 time, and you are kindly asked to make -- to repeat your solemn
25 declaration to tell us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
1 truth. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: IBRAHIM FAZLAGIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Now Ms. Sutherland from the Prosecution -- you may
7 sit down, thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, for the Prosecution will continue
10 and hopefully conclude today her examination-in-chief. And then after
11 that, you will be cross-examined by the Defence teams.
12 Ms. Sutherland, please. You may proceed.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Examined by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]
15 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, last Friday you briefly discussed your position as
16 director of Atlas Prima Tours. And you marked on a map Prosecution
17 Exhibit P534A where the offices were located?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Closer to the microphone, please.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone -- yes, it is on.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. You also drew a diagram of the area where the office is located,
22 which is Prosecution Exhibit P535?
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I inadvertently asked for this
24 Exhibit to be marked P535, when in fact I wanted it to be marked P534B.
25 Given that the Prosecution hasn't tendered any other exhibits since that
1 exhibit, can the exhibit be remarked as Prosecution Exhibit P534B?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there any objection on the part of the Defence?
3 It is so --
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it would be very confusing to some
5 lawyer trying to work on the appeal of this case to be searching around
6 for 535.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: There will be a 535.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: But it won't be the one the transcript is referring
9 to. It will be some other exhibit. I think it must remain 535 at this
10 point since that's the way it's identified over and over in the
11 transcript. One must think of a future appellant lawyer who has no idea
12 what we are doing here other than what he can see in the transcript and so
13 I think it has to be that way.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I would tend to agree with Mr. Ackerman, actually,
15 because the transcript of last Friday's sitting is not going to be changed
16 in any case. So anyone referring to that transcript later on is going to
17 find a reference to Exhibit 535 being. In reality, if that person looks
18 for 535, if your request is granted, he or she will find another
19 document. So I -- if it's no major tragedy for the Prosecution, let's
20 leave it at that.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And then when you come to -- did you have in mind
23 any other document already which you have marked 535 in your records?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No. So that's not a major problem, I think. And we
1 can live with 535 as it is.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND:
4 Q. Sir, you testified on Friday that your office was right at the
5 very corner of the floor with a small protruding balcony. And you marked
6 that balcony on Prosecution Exhibit 535. Which floor of the building was
7 your office located?
8 A. On the first floor. On the ground floor were the counters.
9 Q. You testified on Friday that the Dubrovnik-based tourist agency
10 Atlas had 11 employees. Is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. You also testified that the company was disbanded and Atlas Prima
13 Tours was set up.
14 A. On the 10th of October, 1991 the firm was registered.
15 Q. When Atlas Prima Tours commenced business, how many persons worked
16 for the new company?
17 A. Six.
18 Q. Could you tell me the ethnicities of these six people, please?
19 A. Once again, I don't know how often I have to again mention
20 ethnicities: Two Serbs, two Bosniaks, and two Croats.
21 Q. And upon the creation of the new business, why were there less
22 people employed than in the other business? Can you explain to the Court
23 why this was the case.
24 A. This number of six people were not really fully employed because
25 the scope of activity was significantly reduced. We just were hoping that
1 in the immediate future things would improve, but we really didn't even
2 need that many employees.
3 Q. Which particular parts of the business had fallen off?
4 A. The sale of railway tickets had fallen off entirely. Then also
5 the sale of bus tickets was reduced by about 90 per cent. Programmes of
6 travel and holidays and weekend excursions had almost completely died out,
7 so that we were just meting out an existence. Only barely.
8 Q. What was the ethnicity of the people that worked on the rail
10 A. Both of the persons working at the rail counter were Serbs by
12 Q. And were they given full-time employment when the new company was
14 A. No, because that counter in the new company wasn't operating at
16 Q. The other people that weren't given full-time employment, why did
17 they -- was there any reason why they left the company?
18 A. The plane ticket counter's business was halved, so that only one
19 person was kept to man that counter, and assistance at the airplane
20 counter later when the sale of plane tickets increased was provided by
21 employees from the commercial department. They passed the test to be able
22 to work at that counter.
23 Q. Did anyone retire?
24 A. Yes. A lady who also used to work at the rail ticket counter,
25 Mrs. Nada Ojdenic, left. And when a list was made by those who were
1 making lists, was marked as being Serbian, but she was in fact Croatian.
2 Q. These people that weren't given full-time employment, were they
3 still kept on by the company in some shape or form?
4 A. Yes. One of the employees who was considered to be redundant and
5 declared as such, I think immediately took a bonus consisting of 24
6 monthly salaries. And another colleague got a job in the Territorial
7 Defence staff. And the two others, that is, Mrs. Nada Crljenica, and Mrs.
8 Stanka Vukomanovic, were both taken over by us as laid off workers. But
9 they enjoyed all entitlements as if they were employed in Atlas Prima
10 Tours. And then Mrs. Nada Crljenica was fully employed again soon after
11 that, and she in fact became the manager of the company.
12 Q. The person who got the job at the National Defence Secretariat,
13 what was that person's name?
14 A. Dragoljub Lukic.
15 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
16 A. Serb.
17 Q. You mentioned that the laid-off workers enjoyed all the
18 entitlements. Does this mean that their health cover was covered by the
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you encounter any problems later on because you made these
22 staff redundant?
23 A. Yes, indeed.
24 Q. Did you receive any correspondence from the authorities?
25 A. Indeed I did.
1 Q. Who did you receive a letter from?
2 A. First the media launched a campaign against me. And in several
3 installments, journalist Ratko Maric and Mrs. Bozic, I think her name was
5 Q. Excuse me. If you could just pause there. Did you receive a
6 letter in December 1991 from the authorities?
7 A. Yes. I received a letter in which I'm accused of having fired
8 workers, all of whom were of Serb ethnicity, which was not true, and that
9 I should adjust that decision, that I should behave in accordance with a
10 certain ratio, which I didn't fully comprehend in fact. I reacted to this
11 in conversations with certain people in the municipality. I wanted them
12 to show me and prove to me what they meant.
13 Q. Who did you receive this letter from?
14 A. I received the letter from Mr. Rajko Kasagic, the president of the
15 Executive Council of Banja Luka municipality.
16 Q. You mentioned earlier about the media.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was an article written in the Glas newspaper about this matter?
19 A. Yes. It was precisely in Glas that in several copies, they --
20 several issues, they wrote about me, carrying certain data of their own.
21 And on a number of occasions, I tried to disprove that. In fact, all the
22 employed in the new company, Atlas Prima Tours -- and I repeat again, all
23 the employed, which means both Serbs, Croats, and a Bosniak, apart from
24 myself, because I was not a signatory of that letter. They absolutely
25 rejected the allegations that had been made prior to that in the Glas
2 Q. Sir, do you recall who was making the initial accusations in the
4 A. The first were launched by these two reporters. And then
5 eventually at the end of those accusations and these reports in the media,
6 sometime in April, I read a surprising article, a report on the -- a
7 meeting of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Province of Krajina,
8 intimating who would be among the next to be persecuted and fired. And
9 among these, my name was referred to as being a drastic case, saying that
10 this could not go on.
11 Q. Sir, before we move on to that, did you speak to anyone in
12 authority regarding the situation?
13 A. Yes, of course.
14 Q. Who did you speak to?
15 A. [No interpretation]
16 Q. Who did you speak to?
17 A. One of my -- one of the people closest to me at the time in the
18 municipality was Mr. Branko Cvijic, who was secretary of the Municipal
19 Assembly. And I tried to talk to him in the context of our previous
20 relationship. I asked him to clarify things for me. However, I did not
21 get much encouragement from him.
22 Q. Do you recall the time period this was?
23 A. This must have been around -- actually, after those news reports,
24 so around the end of April.
25 Q. And what did you say to Mr. Cvijic?
1 A. I tried to provide documents in support of what I was saying, that
2 the things that I was being criticised for did not apply. Branko Cvijic
3 knew very well who I was, what my ideological positions were, who I was
4 and what I represented in that town. I tried to make it clear to him that
5 that could not be said of me, that my positions were not such. However,
6 it was logical to me that I could not expect from him an answer that would
7 support me, so that I simply tried to ease and air my feelings, hoping I
8 would feel better afterwards. But I knew that there was really nothing I
9 could do.
10 Q. And what did Mr. Cvijic recommend to you?
11 A. He recommended at the end of this conversation -- and at that
12 point in time, I thought also that that was the only solution -- that I
13 should -- that the situation would calm down, at least to some extent with
14 respect to me, of course, if among the employees of Serb ethnicity I were
15 to appoint a person as manager and that I should withdraw from that
17 Q. Did you do as Mr. Cvijic recommended?
18 A. Yes, immediately. That same day, I called up Mrs. Nada Crljenica.
19 I invited her to a talk with me. We discussed matters for about one hour.
20 I explained to her the situation, that I must say I myself found myself
21 in. And I said, "Madam Nada, you probably are aware of the times we are
22 living in, so I ask you to take over my position, and we'll see what will
23 be with me." And then I was appointed advisor to the company, and Mrs.
24 Nada took over as manager, so that this proposal of Mr. Branko Cvijic was
25 immediately implemented.
1 Q. Did you ever attend at the SUP?
2 A. Yes. For the first time in that situation -- and I also hope the
3 last time. Shall I tell you about it?
4 Q. Please.
5 A. One day I was called up by an employee in the crime department of
6 SUP. I immediately got into the car and went there. When I reached the
7 office I was told to go to, I saw a former student of mine. Because by
8 occupation, I'm a teacher, so that I had a number of former students in
9 these various services. And the conversation centred around something
10 that allegedly we were selling tickets for international bus transport and
11 for foreign currency, which we were not allowed to do I said, "That's the
12 first time I hear of it. We have all the necessary licences to be able to
13 do that, a licence, as it appeared in the Official Gazette, which said we
14 could do it with the appropriate contracts." And he asked me to provide
15 the relevant documents. My employees immediately brought the necessary
16 document, but he wanted a recent document. And then by telex, I quickly
17 received from Livno the latest document which I provided. But in the
18 meantime, I was left in the room several times alone, because this
19 employee said he went to fetch something. And this would take two or
20 three hours.
21 Q. Sir.
22 A. So that it looked to me as if ...
23 Q. Sorry.
24 A. As if something like brainwashing. I was there all day. In the
25 end, they couldn't find anything that I could be reproached for. And I
1 was told everything was okay. But nevertheless, his parting words were
2 "take care." After saying that, I asked, "What should I take care
3 about?" And that is how we parted.
4 Q. Do you recall when this was?
5 A. This was happening just around the month of April, the month that
6 proved to be crucial for me.
7 Q. You mentioned earlier in your testimony that you read a surprising
8 report. And you started to tell us what that report was about. Do you
9 remember that?
10 A. When my name was mentioned? Is that what you're referring to?
11 Oh, yes. Yes. Glas would regularly publish the main conclusions from
12 meetings of the Crisis Staff and also the decisions taken by the Crisis
13 Staff. But most of those reports consisting of naming certain people,
14 certain employees, certain companies -- of course mostly of non-Serb
15 ethnicity -- according to which, as we saw it, these intimated steps that
16 would be taken against those people in the future. And on that day, two
17 or three names were mentioned, I think.
18 Q. Do you recall what was said in the article about yourself and who
19 said it?
20 A. Oh, yes, I remember perfectly. In block letters, highlighted, my
21 name was highlighted, and Mr. Brdjanin was quoted as saying that a special
22 case was the director of Atlas, Ibrahim Fazlagic, who had fired six
23 workers, all of them being of Serb ethnicity. And then something that
24 discouraged me most -- not discouraged, because I was -- knew what the
25 truth was. He went on to say that this could not be tolerated, which
1 meant that I had already been condemned.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
3 Exhibit 165 [Realtime transcript read in error "615"].
4 The transcript reads Prosecution Exhibit 615. It should be 165.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are correct, Ms. Sutherland. If we can
6 have that corrected straight away, it will be much better.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, is this the article that you were referring to?
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the English translation would be placed on the
10 ELMO machine.
11 A. Yes, that is the article, with a very clear title.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. On my monitor, I'm seeing the English
13 translation of the article carried in Glas. I suppose -- yes. But I
14 suppose since we also have a copy of Glas, what the witness should be
15 shown and what should appear on the ELMO is the photocopy of the article
16 from Glas, not the English translation, even though he speaks English.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the witness has the Glas article in
18 front of him.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm. But perhaps he could -- we could put it on
20 the ELMO, and he can show us on the ELMO which is the article. Because
21 here I see a lot of articles. I don't understand the language. It's in
22 Cyrillic script. And perhaps he can point it out to us.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Sir, can you just tell the Court the date of this newspaper
1 A. [Indicates]
2 Q. Sir, do you see the date on the top left-hand corner of the page?
3 A. Yes. The 28th of April.
4 Q. Is it the 28th of April, or is it the 30th of April and the 1st
5 and 2nd of May, 1992?
6 A. The 28th; of the article itself.
7 Q. Which --
8 A. When this news was published.
9 Q. Which is the article -- yes, yes. Which is the article that's
10 referring -- that you're referring to?
11 A. "Only personnel loyal to the Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina."
12 Q. Sir, when did you see this article for the first time?
13 A. Immediately.
14 Q. And what was your reaction to it?
15 A. My private reaction was that was the end of the story, that I
16 hadn't -- no place -- that there was no place for me. Though even then I
17 couldn't believe it.
18 Q. Did Atlas Prima Tours sell airline tickets to Belgrade?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. And when -- do you recall when JAT, the Yugoslav airline organised
21 airline flights from Banja Luka to Belgrade?
22 A. Perhaps not the exact date. But this was particularly pronounced
23 in the months of April and May. Even, I think, at the end of March. But
24 in April, up to the 18th of May, when the last plane left for Belgrade,
25 there was a great deal of interest.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. How many flights a day were there from Banja Luka to Belgrade?
2 A. On an average, there were two.
3 Q. Who were buying these tickets?
4 A. As far as I know and as I saw it, tickets were being bought
5 mainly -- or one might say 100 per cent, by non-Serbs. And of course,
6 they were one-way tickets.
7 Q. Why were non-Serbs buying tickets to Belgrade?
8 A. In those days, it was the only way to get out of Banja Luka,
9 because virtually all other means of transportation for other countries
10 could not be used. Trains had stopped a long time ago, and the last bus
11 to leave Banja Luka for Croatia was at the beginning of April, and it
12 didn't go from Banja Luka but from Prijedor. So some passengers managed
13 to get as far as a crossroads the near Banja Luka where they got onto that
15 Q. When was the last train from Banja Luka to Croatia?
16 A. The last train for Croatia, I think, was at the end of 1991. At
17 the end of 1991.
18 Q. And when was the last train from Banja Luka to Sarajevo?
19 A. Actually, I took that train. It was one of the last to leave --
20 at the beginning of March.
21 Q. And why were non-Serbs wanting to leave Banja Luka in March,
22 April, May of 1992?
23 A. Well, there was an awful lot of pressure applied. First, more or
24 less they all remained without their jobs. Then there was intimidation
25 that went on, constant pressure, applied in different ways: On the phone,
1 in personal contacts. Simply this atmosphere, as far as the non-Serb
2 population was concerned, it was unbearable, and in that period, the only
3 way to save oneself, and one's family was to leave the town. And
4 naturally, when politicians named people, that -- saying that there was
5 no -- there was no place for us in that town, when they stated that, it
6 was a sign that we had to leave.
7 Q. You said that the tickets were only issued one way. What was the
8 price of a one-way ticket?
9 A. I don't know exactly, but it wasn't more than 100 Deutschmarks.
10 Q. Are you aware of tickets being sold for a higher price?
11 A. I am not, but certainly there was a reselling of ticket, I
12 presume. At the airport, as -- while I was still going there, nobody was
13 asking about the name. It was important to show a ticket at the check-in
14 and then go through the military and the police check, and then one would
15 be lucky enough to get onto the plane.
16 Q. Did JAT, the Yugoslav airline, ever -- did any staff ever work out
17 of your office?
18 A. Two employees whom I knew very well. I don't know their names,
19 because they came to see me as part of a -- a business visit.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this time that you're talking
22 A. That was the same period in question, particularly in April and
23 May. So they came to see us, to -- so to speak the check the sale. And
24 then for a while, in Hotel Bosna, they took a room. And from there, they
25 started selling tickets individually from that room for that flight.
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... selling tickets from your
3 A. After that room, they came to me without asking any questions,
4 without any consultations, whether they can do it or not. They took over
5 a counter, and they were selling tickets. I understand why they did it;
6 so that the money -- because the money -- the tickets were bought for
7 foreign currency, so that the money would then be wired to Belgrade -- or
8 rather, not wired. But in fact, the daily profit -- the daily turnover,
9 they would take money by car so that another JAT representative would be
10 waiting and the money would be going directly through to Belgrade. So
11 this was no longer going through the public auditing service as we had
12 done it until then?
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... during the end of April and
14 the 18th of May when you said that the last flight to Belgrade occurred,
15 in your estimation, how many tickets per day was your company selling?
16 A. Yes. Well, that was the high season. And in our branch office,
17 in a rough estimate, I think that on a daily basis up to 300 tickets were
19 Q. When was the last time you went to the airport?
20 A. It was normal that occasionally -- not always -- but it was normal
21 that I should go every two or three days. I would escort groups because
22 about three buses would leave the branch. And so then I would go, as some
23 kind of a guide. I would take them to the airport, as head of the convoy.
24 But on one day -- I believe that it was the beginning of May -- I was
25 stopped by the police on the entrance to the airport, and they said that I
1 was no longer allowed to get in and told me to go back.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness please be shown Prosecution
3 Exhibit 179, which is the ARK Crisis Staff conclusion of the 8th of May,
4 1992. P179 is also part of Exhibit 227 which is the entire Official
5 Gazette, number 2, of 1992.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher, if the English translation could be put on
8 the ELMO, showing paragraph number 7 of the document. And also the next
9 page -- the top of the next page.
10 Q. Sir, did you ever receive a copy of this conclusion?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you ever told by the authorities that you couldn't sell
14 A. No.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness now be shown Prosecution Exhibit
16 181, which is a Glas article dated the 9th of May, 1992.
17 Q. On page 3, there is a report from the session of the Autonomous
18 Region Krajina War Staff dated the 8th of May.
19 If I can take you to the second paragraph. "The possibility of
20 abuse was also considered --" I'm sorry. Earlier, "Atlas and Putnik
21 enterprises who sell tickets as they wish, without taking into account the
22 seriousness of the present situation at all. The possibility of abuse was
23 also considered, so an order was issued that in future tickets for flights
24 to Belgrade cannot be sold without the approval of the National Defence
25 Council or the war staffs. In case of non-compliance, all those
1 responsible in Atlas and Putnik will suffer very severe penalties, said
2 Radoslav Brdjanin, president of the Bosnian Krajina War Staff in today's
3 meeting with journalists."
4 Did you ever see this article?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You told this Chamber a moment ago that you were never told by the
7 authorities that you couldn't sell tickets. Is that right?
8 A. No. Officially, I was never told.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can be shown Prosecution Exhibit
10 183, which is an ARK Crisis Staff conclusion of the 9th of May. Paragraph
11 6, in particular.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. "Due to its abuses in its work, the Atlas travel agency is
15 prohibited from further work." And then it continues.
16 Did you ever receive a copy of this conclusion?
17 A. No.
18 Q. In the Glas article that you saw a moment ago, it talked about
19 abuses, allegations of selling airline tickets to military-age persons or
20 for too much money. Did your agency ever sell tickets for more than 100
21 Deutschmarks, to your knowledge?
22 A. Not one of my employees ever did such a thing. This can be
23 checked with the current employees. I believe they're now called Krajina
24 Turist. They used to work for me. And they can be asked to confirm
1 Q. Did Rajko Kasagic ever ask you for airline tickets?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall what time period this was?
4 A. At the same period of time. At the end of April, perhaps first
5 days of May.
6 Q. What did he say to you?
7 A. He called me on the phone to go and see him. I did not know what
8 it was about, because I know Mr. Kasagic well and he knows me. And I went
9 to see him to the executive board. I went into his office straight away.
10 We had a coffee. And he then told me that he needed, I think -- I can't
11 promise you that I'm telling the truth -- but perhaps five tickets for his
12 own needs.
13 Q. Did he say why? Why he wanted the five tickets?
14 A. Yes. He told me. But I'm not sure whether that was that. But he
15 said that it was either his brother that -- he was married to a Bosniak
16 woman, and that he wanted to send them away to a safe place.
17 Q. Did you provide them?
18 A. Naturally I -- of course I would do that, because I know -- I knew
19 Mr. Kasagic. I went back to the branch and I asked -- I think this was
20 Mrs. Crljenica or perhaps Rada. But I asked them if they could get these
21 five tickets. And Mr. Kasagic also gave me the names and that they would
22 take it -- take them to him. And that's what they did -- to Mr. Kasagic,
23 to Mr. Kasagic.
24 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, did you ever receive a decision to cease the work of
25 the travel agency?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recall the date of the decision?
3 A. I think that was beginning of May.
4 Q. How did you receive this letter?
5 A. I received it by mail. I think it was some kind of internal
6 mail. I know that one of my employees brought it to me from the counter.
7 He brought it to my office upstairs.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
9 Exhibit 532, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I should
11 make a small correction. This was beginning of June, beginning of June.
12 I said beginning of May. It's a slip of the tongue. Actually, it should
13 be beginning of June.
14 Q. Sir, who is the signature block on that decision?
15 A. This was the signature of the president, Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin.
16 Q. Can you please tell the Court who issued the decision and what the
17 decision says.
18 A. This decision was issued by the Crisis Staff of the ARK, and it
19 says that the Atlas agency, Prima Tours, ceases with its activities and
20 that the business premises will be taken over by the Municipal Assembly of
21 Banja Luka, which has absolutely no legal grounds. There's no legal basis
22 for it. What I found incredible, although I'm not a lawyer but I do I
23 understand some things -- there wasn't one single sentence of giving any
24 reasons for this.
25 Q. Did you ever receive any explanation as to why it had been sent?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you or anyone ever discuss this decision with anyone from the
4 A. Of course. There was some kind of mini delegation on the very
5 same day when we got this decision. They went to look for Mr. Brdjanin.
6 They waited for him for a long time in the corridor. I know where that
8 Q. I'm sorry. Who were the people that went to speak to the
10 A. If I can remember it well, it was Nada -- Rada Dobra. There was
11 Tijana Crnic, and I think Mirsada Gradanin.
12 Q. Rada Dobra, is she of Serb ethnicity?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And Tijana Crnic, is she also of Serb ethnicity?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Mirsada Gradanin?
17 A. Bosniak.
18 Q. Who did they speak to?
19 A. They wanted to speak to Mr. Brdjanin personally. And according to
20 what they told me, after an hour Mr. Brdjanin, either upon coming into the
21 premises or leaving them, he simply told the that he cannot discuss
22 anything on this subject any more. And so they came back.
23 Q. Basically he said the decision was final.
24 A. Exactly.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, that was not the witness's
1 testimony. That was the Prosecutor's statement. The witness did not say
2 that he said the decision was final. The witness said he said he couldn't
3 discuss anything further. And I object to the Prosecutor putting words in
4 the witness's mouth in that regard.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: I agree, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, objection sustained.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. After receiving this decision, were you stopped from going to
10 A. Not yet. And for a while, we continued to work.
11 Q. At some point, were you stopped from going to work?
12 A. Yes. By force.
13 Q. Can you explain how you were stopped by force?
14 A. I came one morning at 7.00 a.m. And in front of the door with --
15 the office with the counters. And for a while already there were reserve
16 policemen placed in front of the counters. So one policeman whom I
17 knew -- his name was Zoran -- he told me that I could no longer get
18 inside. That was a shock for me. My employees from behind the counter
19 looked at me, and I -- I looked down, and I went back home.
20 Q. Was anyone else stopped from entering -- from working on that day?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Was your employment officially terminated?
23 A. Officially, no, not yet, until I received from my colleague, whom
24 I appointed as director -- as manager, until I received the decision on
25 the cessation of employment.
1 Q. Do you recall what date you received this document, the date of
2 the decision?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, you can show him the documents
4 straight away and proceed with asking him whether he confirms that that is
5 the document that officially terminated his employment.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Can the witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit 533.
8 Q. Sir, who has signed that document?
9 A. That was Mrs. Nada Crljenica.
10 Q. Can you please read the decision to the Court.
11 A. "Decision on the termination of employment. The employment of
12 Ibrahim Fazlagic, advisor --"
13 Q. Sir, if you can please pause there. Can you please start from the
14 top of the document and read the text --
15 A. [In English] Okay, okay. [Interpretation] "Based on a decision of
16 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, Banja Luka, decision
17 number 03-531/92 of 22 June 1992, I hereby issue a decision on the
18 termination of employment. The employment of Ibrahim Fazlagic, advisor at
19 the Atlas Prima Tours travel agency, Banja Luka, is terminated as of 30
20 June 1992.
21 Statement of reasons: Since Ibrahim Fazlagic is carrying out the
22 duties and assignments of advisor at the Atlas Prima Tours travel agency,
23 Banja Luka, in accordance with the decision of the Crisis Staff of the AR
24 Krajina, Banja Luka, number 03-531/92, it was decided as in the
25 disposition of the decision."
1 Q. What is the date of this document?
2 A. 26th of June, 1992.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, the ARK Crisis Staff decision
4 number 03-531/92 is also Prosecution Exhibit 254 and 255.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed to something different -- I mean,
6 I'm not stopping you now. But just before you proceed to the next series
7 of questions, just let me know, because I would like to have something
8 clarified with regard to this document.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, was the position of director of a travel agency seen
11 as being a highly sensitive government position?
12 A. I think there were no elements whatsoever that this should be
13 considered as such.
14 Q. Did you appeal this decision?
15 A. Yes, I did. It was more a question of formality, because I deeply
16 believed that it was so, just a formality, which would not give any
17 results. I spoke to Mrs. Nada Crljenica at the branch office. I asked
18 her, "What does that mean in the statement of reasons?" And she said that
19 this was because I was working on the work which is to do with sending and
20 receiving information. Naturally, ironically, I asked, "Is a kind of
21 information when the train is leaving or plane leaving? Are there any
22 excursions to Dubrovnik? Is this -- is this the kind of information that
23 is so important that on their basis, I am being dismissed from my job?"
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm about to move on to another
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland --
2 And Witness, please follow what I am going to tell Ms. Sutherland,
3 because you will be asked to clarify later on.
4 Looking at Exhibit P181, there is in the second paragraph a
5 reference to two enterprises. One is Atlas, the other one is Putnik.
6 Now, in the original Glas report, actually you will find the words
7 "Atlasa" and "Putnika," then in the Exhibit number P183, at the bottom of
8 the page, you have the decision of the War Staff, decision number 6, to
9 which reference was made earlier, deciding that Atlas travel agency is
10 prohibited from further work, followed immediately by another decision, in
11 the same context, that the Putnik travel agency shall be allowed to sell
12 tickets for flights to Belgrade.
13 Now, I know that there might -- there probably is a very simple
14 explanation to what I'm going to say, namely that probably Putnika is a
15 B/C/S word for "travel." But I see on the face of the B/C/S Exhibit P533,
16 just beneath the signature -- the name and signature of Nada Crljenica,
17 the words "Putnika Agencija." And in the logo, at the top of the page,
18 also there is "Putnika Agencija." I would like you to direct a question
19 to the witness to make sure that this Putnika Agencija in this document
20 must not and is not to be confused with the Putnika enterprise that was
21 allowed to continue trading tickets to Belgrade.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, did you hear what His Honour just said? Did you
25 A. Of course I did.
1 Q. This stamp that appears on the bottom of Prosecution Exhibit 533,
2 the decision by Nada Crljenica to dismiss you from employment, are you
3 familiar with that stamp that's on the bottom of that page?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he ought to be shown the document again.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry. I thought he had it in front of him.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: No.
7 [redacted – lines repeated]
8 [redacted – lines repeated]
9 [redacted – lines repeated]
10 [redacted – lines repeated]
11 [redacted – lines repeated]
12 [redacted – lines repeated]
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: You should, can he be shown Exhibit 533.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. Do you recognise that stamp at the bottom of the document, where
17 it says --
18 A. Yes, indeed. I worked on it. In fact, I had it done. I had the
19 stamp made when we founded the company.
20 Q. Your company is called Atlas Prima Tours. Why is the word
21 "Putnika" agency also on the stamp?
22 A. Atlas Prima Tours could be a commercial establishment. It could
23 be a factory. It could be anything. But Atlas Prima Tours is a travel
24 agency, which in B/C/S is "Putnika Agencija".
25 Q. Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: There was another company by the name of Putnika
2 which was in competition with you, with your company, wasn't there?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Putnik is a separate
4 company, with headquarters in Belgrade. This was a branch office. Again
5 of another travel agency called Putnik.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That clarifies everything for me. Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I guess I have been misinformed. I
9 was -- I understood on Friday that we were going back to the old break
10 system and that we would be breaking now.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Not really. Not today. We are stopping for about
12 five minutes to give time to the technicians to change the tapes and then
13 we continue as before, at least for today. And then I'm going to discuss
14 it further tomorrow, because there is a technical hitch that the tapes
15 only last for one hour and 40 minutes, and they have to be changed. And
16 therefore, time is required for that. So in actual fact, we will be
17 stopping in -- Madam Registrar, in a couple of minutes?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Seven minutes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: In seven minutes, yes.
20 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I had also understood -- and maybe I was --
22 misheard -- that part of the problems we've been having with translation
23 is that the translators have been getting too tired during these long
24 sessions and --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We can -- I have no problems at all in
1 reverting to the old regime, the previous regime, finishing at 7.00,
2 instead of 6.30. I frankly don't know how much difference half an hour
3 makes, but I'm prepared to accommodate everyone.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I love leaving at 6.30, Your Honour. I was
5 thinking a couple of 15-minute breaks would make more sense and we could
6 still leave at 6.30. I don't know whether that works or not.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I said I would be discussing it again
8 tomorrow, because I haven't had a chance to discuss it with my colleagues
9 to start with.
10 Today we agreed with Madam Registrar, who came to see me three
11 minutes before I was proceeding to come up here to tell me about the
12 problem. And I said -- actually, she offered to leave everything as it
13 was today and then we will discuss further tomorrow and make any
14 adjustments that may become necessary.
15 So Ms. Sutherland, you may proceed.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm just wondering whether I can get
17 through the next topic in what's now probably four minutes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We can stop here for the agreed five minutes so that
19 the technicians change the tapes and continue soon after and then we will
20 have the break. Unless you prefer to have a break straight away now.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I think that's probably the most sensible
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will have a break now. I think that's more
24 sensible. We'll have a break now for 25 -- for 30 minutes. And then
25 we'll take it up from there. Thank you.
1 Yes. The witness can be escorted out of the courtroom, please.
2 So we'll break for 30 minutes.
3 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.29 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness, please.
6 Why is it taking so long?
7 Mr. Ackerman, I'm more or less basing on what you've heard so far.
8 How long do you anticipate your cross-examination will last -- or will
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm guessing probably not more than
11 two hours.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau?
13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think less than an hour,
14 Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And -- okay. Thank you.
16 And how long do you think you need the witness on
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Probably another half an hour, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's fine. So you can plan with starting
20 with the next witness tomorrow.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if you will be examining the witness.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. You may proceed. Thank you.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, before the break, you said that Atlas Prima Tours
2 turned into Krajina Turist. Do you recall when this occurred?
3 A. [Microphone not activated]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 A. That occurred towards the end of June. I don't know the exact
6 date, because I no longer went to work in the company.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Who worked in Krajina Turist, if you know?
9 A. Mrs. Nada Crljenica stayed on, and Mrs. Rada Dobra. I'm not sure
10 about Mrs. Stanka Vukomanovic.
11 Q. And again, what ethnicity are these people?
12 A. Serb ethnicity.
13 Q. I want to now ask you about other travel agencies in Banja Luka.
14 You mentioned earlier the Putnik agency. Where was that located?
15 A. In the ground floor, close to the lobby of the Bosna Hotel.
16 Q. I'm sorry. Just one more question on Krajina Turist. Do you
17 recall who set that -- that agency up?
18 A. Well, if I'm not mistaken, I think it was formed by the executive
19 council. I saw in Glas a small framed report in which the board of
20 management of Krajina Turist -- two people were appointed to that board.
21 I remember the name of only one, Mr. Dusko Lasic.
22 Q. In relation to Putnik, what was their main business in 1992, if
23 you know?
24 A. Mostly selling air tickets.
25 Q. Did you know anyone who worked there?
1 A. Yes, indeed. One of my staff members switched to Putnik,
2 Mr. Hamdija Trnovac.
3 Q. What was his ethnicity?
4 A. A Bosniak.
5 Q. What was his position at Putnik? A. He was also in charge of
6 the Putnik branch office, the travel agency Putnik of Belgrade.
7 Q. How long did he work at Putnik, if you know?
8 A. In my assessment, for about three years. Three, four years.
9 Q. Were there other -- any other travel agencies operating during
10 this time?
11 A. Before that, yes. But many, because there was no business, simply
12 died out. For instance, Unis, Inex; I remember those two. Simply because
13 of the situation they found themselves in, they closed.
14 Q. I want to now ask you some questions about life in Banja Luka.
15 Can you describe to the Court the atmosphere in Banja Luka in 1992, up
16 until the time that you left.
17 A. For us -- and I have to say for a part of the Serbs too, the
18 atmosphere was very difficult because there was already shortages of
19 electricity in the first place. A large number of people would spend the
20 day in front of their apartment buildings where they improvised cooking
21 stoves, and they cooked outside and spent their time outside. And for us,
22 this was a period of uncertainty, of constant fear of what tomorrow would
23 bring. But nevertheless, we never believed that anything drastic could
24 happen, and that applies to me too and many of my friends. We thought
25 that this was just a storm that would pass quickly. Unfortunately, we
1 were naive.
2 Q. What, if any, restrictions were in Banja Luka in 1992?
3 A. If you mean power cuts, yes, there were power shortages and cuts,
4 and that's what you had in mind.
5 Q. Were there any checkpoints in Banja Luka?
6 A. Yes. Indeed. Around the beginning of April one morning --
7 actually, this is linked to the appearance of SOS -- checkpoints were
8 erected at the entrance to the town. Before that, several buildings were
9 placed under control. For instance, the Banja Luka radio station, the
10 municipal assembly building, and some other facilities. My wife one
11 morning on her way to work by car was stopped at a bridge near the
12 student's hostel.
13 Q. You've already testified in relation to your wife being stopped by
14 the SOS.
15 A. [In English] Okay.
16 Q. Were any of the mosques in Banja Luka damaged in 1992?
17 A. [Interpretation] Yes. There was an explosion at the Ferhadija
18 Mosque. And as a citizen, I was interested to see what had happened in
19 the morning, so I went there and I saw it. But obviously this was just
20 the beginning, because there were no significant damage. No significant
21 damage had been done at that time. But there were other activities,
22 especially regarding private businesses, coffee-shops, and the like.
23 Q. Can you just describe for the Court what happened to these private
24 businesses and coffee-shops.
25 A. Close to where my agency was, there was like a crafts centre with
1 a large number of small businesses, services, ranging from coffee bars,
2 shoe repairs, photographers, and so on.
3 Q. Who owned these businesses?
4 A. All ethnicities were represented. But explosives were thrown only
5 at businesses owned by non-Serbs.
6 Q. How often was this occurring?
7 A. During that period of time, almost every evening.
8 Q. You mentioned that you listened to the radio. Did the music stay
9 the same throughout 1992?
10 A. No. There was a drastic change in programming.
11 Q. When did you notice this change?
12 A. Sometime simultaneously with these blockades, if I can call them
13 that, or when these businesses were placed under control that was when the
14 music programme of Radio Banja Luka was completely changed. I think for a
15 time, the editor of the music programme was also the director. I'm not
16 quite sure. His name is Mr. Kenjalovic. I heard this from others that he
17 was explicitly ordered, and I think personally, by Mr. Vukic. When one
18 morning he went to Radio Banja Luka, he said that no music can be aired
19 except the music that suited them. And indeed, in the morning, we
20 listened to that music and no other, that day and the days that followed.
21 Q. What sort of music was this?
22 A. Unfortunately, please don't misunderstand me. I find it very
23 difficult to say this, because I used to listen to that music before too,
24 music of all peoples but I must say in this case, it was Serbian music.
25 Q. Sir, a moment ago you mentioned that Hamdija Trnovac who worked at
1 the Putnik agency worked there for approximately three to four years. Do
2 you recall when he left the agency, what month, and year?
3 A. He left roughly at the same time as I did, in 1992.
4 Q. Do you know why he left?
5 A. Simply one morning he arrived and found the premises locked and
6 from them, a lot of equipment had been taken out. And as he personally
7 told me, he simply saw that he could no longer work there. He picked up
8 his things, his personal affairs, and went home.
9 Q. Did he receive any official notification as to why he couldn't
10 enter the premises?
11 A. I don't know that. He didn't tell me that.
12 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, when did you leave Banja Luka?
13 A. On the 28th of August, 1992, in a very strange way.
14 Q. Prior to leaving Banja Luka, did you see the mayor?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you recount for the Court the conversation that you had with
17 the mayor of Banja Luka?
18 A. I felt a very strong need, even desire, to meet with three people
19 from my Banja Luka whom I knew very well and with whom I had cooperated.
20 That is archbishop Jefrem, the town mayor Radic, and somebody we had a lot
21 of respect for until then at least, as an intellectual, Mr. Gugo
23 Q. Can you tell me the conversation you had with Mr. Radic.
24 A. With both Radic and Jefrem and Lazarevic, I discussed the same
25 subject. I simply wished to express my reaction, my position, and my
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 question as to why. So I roughly said the following: "Even on my death
2 bed I will not understand why I left my town to which I had dedicated 40
3 years of my life, much more than many others, than even those who are
4 sitting here."
5 Q. What was Mr. Radic's response, if any?
6 A. In view of the fact that I knew Mr. Radic very well -- I'd known
7 him for a long time, for I too had been involved in football for many
8 years. I was on the board of the Borac Football Club, and Mr. Radic was a
9 junior who played in Borac. We all called him Prede. And --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this he has touched upon already, and if I
11 remember well he even said that they were very happy when he was appointed
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So --
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. Witness, if you can --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You may direct the witness to something else,
18 please. Thank you.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
20 Q. Witness, if you can just tell the Court what, if anything,
21 Mr. Radic said to you in relation to the conversation you had with him
22 just prior to leaving Banja Luka.
23 A. At that point in time, he was probably embarrassed, in view of the
24 fact that we had lived through some fine times together, that we had spent
25 together in our city. And I say "our city," on purpose.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues] ... having been
2 asked twice to say what did Mr. Radic say to you. Again he's going off on
3 their times together and that sort of thing. Could he be instructed to
4 simply answer the question.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I'm going to interrupt you, because
6 you interrupted the witness, who was, according to me, just about to start
7 answering the question.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: You may be right, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, if you look at his statement, the written
10 statement, that I am sure you have, he started off by saying that
11 Mr. Radic had -- was looking down. And here he is saying "at that point
12 in time, he was probably embarrassed, in view of the fact --" he was just
13 about to start answering the question.
14 So please. My apologies. Start -- answer the question, please.
15 Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was a very simple one. Ms. Sutherland
18 wanted to know what Mr. Radic said to you in relation to the conversation
19 you had with him just prior -- just before you had to leave, or you to
20 decided leave Banja Luka. I mean, more or less we want the gist, the
21 substance of the conversation.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 [Interpretation] I was just about to say that.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought so.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Radic, with his head bowed,
1 tried to explain to me that I should have understanding for the current
2 situation that this would pass, and that I should be aware that this would
3 not last, that that was how things were now and that I should reconcile
4 myself to that current situation. Something to that effect.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Did he say that you would eventually get over it?
7 A. Not in so many words, but rather that this was a time that we
8 would put behind us very soon. But obviously he was mistaken in his
9 estimate. Maybe that was indeed what he thought and what he hoped for but
10 obviously other options got the upper hand.
11 Q. Sir, you said a moment ago that you left Banja Luka in a strange
12 way. Can you very briefly describe for the Court how you left Banja
14 A. I could not obtain permission to leave the city. And due to
15 various circumstances, one day I met a neighbour of mine who -- and
16 unfortunately I have to say this, he was of Serb ethnicity, but he was a
17 good acquaintance of mine. And he was in such a position as to be able to
18 make it possible for me to get on a military convoy which was heading for
19 Belgrade. This was a time when through the corridor via Brcko and
20 Bijeljina -- and I have to say this, at least on the basis of the
21 information I had, a non-Serb could not pass alive.
22 And I fulfilled just one condition that this gentleman set and
23 that was to get a doctor's referral for treatment in Belgrade. This was
24 not a problem for me because I was on very good terms with virtually all
25 Banja Luka's doctors. So I got that referral note. And so in agreement
1 with him, I arrived in front of the barracks and he asked me when I get to
2 that place that I pretend not to know him. And of course I agreed to do
4 Q. And then you went to Belgrade, and from there you went to a third
5 country; is that correct?
6 A. No. I managed along the journey to make a deviation towards Novi
7 Sad, and spending the night in Novi Sad. After that I headed for Hungary,
8 and via Hungary I got to Virovitica, because you couldn't pass through
9 Croatia. There was fierce fighting going on.
10 Q. And you managed to reunite with your family in a third country.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Sir, when you were in Banja Luka, or at any time, did you own a
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you a member of any armed resistance?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Witness, if you could just wait there for one moment, please.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
20 Now, sir, the Prosecution has finished with its set of questions.
21 It's now the turn of the first team -- the first Defence team; that's the
22 Defence team for accused Radoslav Brdjanin. And you are going to be
23 cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman, who is the lead counsel for Mr. Brdjanin.
24 Mr. Ackerman, you may proceed.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, twice today I have forgotten to pass
1 these. And I apologise. It's the List of Documents that I'm going to use
2 on cross. There are only two documents, and you've seen both of them and
3 you're familiar with both of them. And I think -- I'm not sure, but I
4 think they're probably both available to you. And I'm sorry about
5 forgetting to hand these out earlier this morning.
6 Those are for the Judges; that's for the Prosecutor.
7 I don't know if I can -- I don't know if I can hear -- yes. I
8 think it's probably on.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Yes?
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Yes? You can hear me?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. Thank you.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:
14 Q. Good afternoon, sir?
15 A. [In English] Good afternoon.
16 Q. I want to begin my examination of you by asking you about the
17 statement that you gave to the Prosecutor. It was a statement that you
18 gave --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, are you comfortable in that position,
20 or -- is it a position of your choice?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, no. But I don't know where else to be.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Isn't there space over there?
23 MR. ACKERMAN: This works pretty good, I think.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Provided you are comfortable. But that way you're
25 not exactly facing the witness.
1 Anyway, go ahead. If you're happy, so are we.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm almost always happy, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Almost always.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: The difficulty would be trying to move this over
7 there. I don't think that can be done because of the wires and --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, this courtroom is a little bit awkward.
9 For example, to talk to you or to look at you or to observe you, I
10 literally have to look to the degree of 45 degrees at least, which is no
11 good. I mean, you're not directly in my field of view.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, we'll just do the best we can.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.
15 Q. You gave a statement to the Prosecutor on the 28th and 29th of
16 May, 2001 to representatives of the Prosecutor's office; correct?
17 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
18 Q. And you have had occasion since your arrival here in The Hague to
19 be given that statement and to have an opportunity to review it, have you
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you have mentioned to us as you began your testimony here on
23 Friday that there were some things that you discovered in going through
24 that statement that you wanted to change. And we noted those changes. You
25 recall doing that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Since that time, have you noticed any additional changes that you
3 would like to make to that statement before I begin to ask you questions
4 about it?
5 A. I don't think so.
6 Q. So would it be fair to say that you stand by the balance of your
7 statements contained within that document?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The other thing I want to ask you about is the testimony that you
10 gave here on Friday and so far today. Reflecting back on that, is there
11 anything that you have told the Chamber on Friday or today that on
12 reflection you believe you might have been mistaken about and would like
13 to change?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. Sir, you -- I'm going to talk initially about your
16 testimony from Friday. That's the first subject I want to discuss with
17 you. I'm going to refer to page 76 and 77 of the LiveNote version of the
18 transcript of your testimony. You were talking, you will recall, sir,
19 about the information centre that was in the municipality building in
20 Banja Luka. You recall talking about that. And --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You said -- you were asked when was the first time you saw this
23 information centre. And you said "when it was inaugurated. I wouldn't
24 know the exact year." You gave the name of someone who was the municipal
25 president. "It must have been somewhere in the 1970s, the end of the
1 1970s." And then you were asked, "Was this the only room to the
2 information centre?" And your answer was, "No. Inside, in it, there were
3 two or three other rooms with printers, fax machines, telex machines. And
4 for those -- at those times it was considered to be the most modern such
5 facility in Bosnia-Herzegovina." Now, are you referring to that time at
6 the end of the 1970s when the -- there was the public celebration about it
7 being opened?
8 A. Yes, indeed.
9 Q. It was during -- it was during the time of that public
10 inauguration that you had an opportunity to see all of the things that
11 were inside that room?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I take it that you did not have occasion to visit that room at
14 a later occasion, that it was not a room that was open to the public.
15 A. It wasn't open to the public, but I was chef de cabinet. And with
16 many visitors, guests, I went to see this room, to have a look at the
18 Q. So up until what year would you have had access to what was -- to
19 see that room and see the things that were in it?
20 A. From 1981.
21 Q. Up until 1981?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, you mentioned that the room contained fax machines; correct?
24 A. Fax and telex.
25 Q. Do you know that fax machines did not come into public use until
1 the end of the 1980s, around 1990?
2 A. Well, I don't recall that. But perhaps it's from those years that
3 I remember it. But there was certainly a telex machine.
4 Q. I would ask that the Prosecutor to provide you with a copy of your
5 witness statement, because I now want to ask you some questions about it.
6 Do you have it now?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Do you want to continue in English?
9 A. [In English] No, no.
10 Q. Okay. I have a suspicion that you understand every question I ask
11 you in English before you hear the translation.
12 You speak on page 3 of the English version of your statement of a
13 situation that had developed in the newspapers and otherwise that was
14 distressing to you. And you indicate that sometime in April of 1992 you
15 went to see Branko Cvijic in his office. You talked about that a little
16 earlier today; correct?
17 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
18 Q. And his recommendation to you regarding a solution regarding the
19 problems that you were speaking to him about was that you appoint a Serb
20 as the director of Atlas Prima Tours, which you then did; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the person that was appointed as director or acting director,
23 I believe, was this woman Nada Crljenica.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And between the time that you had reduced the number of employees
1 from 11 to 6, Nada Crljenica had been not working full time at Atlas Prima
2 Tours. She was brought back to be the acting director; is that a fair
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when you came back -- when she came back, you were made -- you
6 were made an advisor to the firm, were you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And who appointed you as advisor?
9 A. Well, in talking to Madam Nada -- and I believe that Madam Rada
10 was also there. They simply asked me what I -- what position I should
11 occupy. So we came up with this idea that I should be given this position
12 of advisor, because I couldn't get any other specific position. I am not
13 trained to work at the counter. I used to be a manager. And in order to
14 help their work in advising her, in order for her to carry out her duties.
15 Q. So this was your idea, then, that you become an advisor, or was it
17 A. It was a joint idea.
18 Q. You don't recall who suggested it first?
19 A. I think I did.
20 Q. All right. Now, these JAT flights that were going from Banja Luka
21 to Belgrade that you've been testifying about, those flights were
22 organised and started operating, I believe you said in your statement, in
23 March or April of 1992; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you told us that it was virtually all Muslims and Croats that
1 were booking flights and buying tickets to fly on those flights to
2 Belgrade; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, isn't it true that at that time, in May I believe it was or
5 maybe even earlier, the military personnel who were not born in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina had been transferred back to Serbia and that many of
7 the people who were buying tickets and flying on those flights were
8 families of the military personnel that had been sent back to Serbia?
9 Isn't that true?
10 A. Perhaps a very small number, because they used different flight, a
11 different plane. It had a nickname Kikas. That was the plane and the
12 wounded took to get to Belgrade.
13 Q. I'm talking about the families of the soldiers, not the soldiers
14 themselves; their families. Their families were flying on this -- these
15 JAT flights from Banja Luka to Belgrade, weren't they?
16 A. I don't remember them buying tickets from us.
17 Q. Do you remember Serb families buying tickets from you for their
18 sons who were subject to conscription to get them out of the area so they
19 wouldn't have to fight? And weren't there a number of those kinds of
20 people flying on that flight?
21 A. I don't recall that in our agency.
22 Q. You have talked already about the company Atlas being shut down.
23 You said on page 5 in the English version of your statement: "In my
24 opinion, Atlas Prima Tours were shut down solely because it was associated
25 to a Croatian company, and its company director was a Bosniak." Isn't
1 that what you said?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Well, the second part of that, at least, can't be true because the
4 company director at that point was a Serb; right?
5 A. Yes. But before that, I had been the director precisely at that
6 critical moment.
7 Q. And the other travel agency that was selling tickets to Belgrade
8 eventually was shut down also, wasn't it? Putnik.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that was not a Croatian company, was it?
11 A. Yes. But the director was Bosniak.
12 Q. That was a Belgrade company, wasn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the flights to Belgrade by JAT ended, I think you say,
15 approximately 18 May of 1992.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, these agencies that were selling tickets to flights to
18 Belgrade, I take it they weren't shut down because nobody wanted to leave
19 Banja Luka anymore. I assume people still wanted to fly to Belgrade,
20 that there was still a demand. Is that correct?
21 A. Well, I think that most of those who wanted to leave Banja Luka as
22 soon as possible, they had all probably gone by the 18th of May.
23 Q. Okay. I'll accept that.
24 On page 7 of your statement in the English version, you say this:
25 "I know that Brdjanin was the main propagandist for the SDS in 1991
1 and 1992." That's what you said; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how did you know this? Did somebody from the SDS tell you
4 that Brdjanin was their main propagandist?
5 A. Well, in Banja Luka, everybody knew this through different types
6 of information that came to us.
7 Q. Well, I'm not talking about everybody. I'm talking about you.
8 How did you know this?
9 A. Well, I knew through statements and stories that people told.
10 Q. Statements by who? Did someone tell you that Brdjanin was the
11 main propagandist for SDS?
12 A. Several people told me this, people who were close to the
13 authorities at the time.
14 Q. And these were SDS people who would know who told you this; is
15 that what you're saying?
16 A. Well, I don't know whether they were members of the SDS, but they
17 were also members of the Serbian people who gave us certain information.
18 Q. Could you give us the names of -- let's just make it two -- two
19 people that told you that Brdjanin was the main propagandist for the SDS
20 in 1991 and 1992, just two.
21 A. I can say the name of Slobodan Kustrinovic.
22 Q. Is he a Serb?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And?
25 A. I'm not sure. But I think also, Mr. Dusan Lajisic.
1 Q. Mr. Kustrinovic, Slobodan Kustrinovic, how would he have been in a
2 position to know about Mr. Brdjanin? What was his position?
3 A. As a director of the company Cajevec, he was also close to the
4 organs of authority. I also saw him enter the building of the municipal
5 assembly at that time probably for some talks with other businessmen. So
6 at that time I had a very unpleasant interview with Mr. Kustrinovic and
7 Mr. Lajisic in front of the municipality building.
8 Q. What position would Dusan Lajisic have been in to give you this
10 A. He was also close to the authorities. He was director of the
11 Banja Luka Brewery and he was also there. So one time after a meeting
12 at the municipality, I met him -- I met them in front of the municipality
14 Q. What brewery was he director of? Would that be the brewery that
15 is currently in operation in Banja Luka?
16 A. Yes. Banja Luka Brewery, yes.
17 Q. Do you know that Mr. Kustrinovic is deceased?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us somebody else that you heard from that
20 Mr. Brdjanin was the main propagandist for the SDS that is not deceased?
21 A. I can't remember.
22 Q. What proof do you have, what knowledge do you have, that
23 Mr. Brdjanin was even a member of the SDS in 1991 and 1992?
24 A. I have none.
25 Q. In your statement, you were talking about a period of time, your
1 statement about Mr. Brdjanin spoke of 1991 and 1992. And you say then
2 after that, that you remember an interview that he gave in March --
3 perhaps March of 1992, and then you make this statement: "During this
4 same period, I remember that Dr. Vukic forbade playing all types of music
5 with the exception of Serb music on Radio Banja Luka," this same period
6 being the spring -- late 1991 and early 1992; correct?
7 A. No. In 1992.
8 Q. So when was it that you became -- when was it that Dr. Vukic told
9 the radio station to stop playing Serb music?
10 A. I think that it was the beginning of April.
11 Q. So non-Serb music was still being played all the way up until the
12 beginning of April?
13 A. Well, even before that. It was rather reduced.
14 Q. Was it reduced in March of 1992?
15 A. Not that drastically, but significantly so.
16 Q. If anyone contended that the radio station was not permitted to
17 play Serb music in late 1991 and early 1992, they'd be incorrect, I take
19 A. I did not understand.
20 Q. If anyone says that the radio station was not permitted to play
21 non-Serb music in late 1991 or early 1992, that person would be incorrect;
22 is that correct? Is that your position?
23 A. That person would be saying the correct things, at the end of 1991
24 and the beginning of 1992.
25 Q. So they weren't permitted to play non-Serb music at that point;
1 only Serb music.
2 A. No. At that time in 1991, there was different types of music.
3 I'm talking about the period prior to the blockade of Radio Banja Luka and
4 just before, even before the blockade there was significantly less.
5 Q. Yes. I knew you were. You -- I obviously did not ask my question
6 properly, causing you not to understand it. And I apologise. My question
7 was this: If someone says that you're incorrect, that the playing of
8 non-Serb music was banned from Radio Banja Luka in late 1991 and early
9 1992, I take it that it's your position that that person is not telling --
10 is wrong, is mistaken?
11 A. No. What I'm saying is that at the end of 1991 and the first days
12 of 1992, this was not banned.
13 Q. Yes. And someone who says it was is not correct?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Ackerman, you are --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: -- you're phrasing your question in a way which
17 either for the translators it is a little bit difficult to -- to translate
18 or it's a little bit difficult or confusing for the witness to -- not to
19 understand but to reply to, because the way the question is put -- I think
20 it could be rephrased. I mean, if you ask -- let me ask the question.
21 Let's take April 1992. If I say in April of 1992, the playing of
22 non-Serb music on Banja Luka radio station was banned; is that a correct
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: If I say the same thing, but only in regard to March
1 1992, is that a correct statement?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But as I said, there was
3 some -- some significant changes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We're heading that way.
5 And in February?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was done by the people in the
7 programme themselves, their own initiative. And in February, what I said
8 was on their -- of their own will. It was within the radio station that
9 they had done it.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go now to November or December 1991. What
11 difference would you say there would be in the playing of non-Serb music
12 between November and December 1991 and April 1992?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not significant.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it.
15 Mr. Ackerman, you may proceed now. You've got your answer.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you. Your Honour. I appreciate you clearing
17 that up.
18 Q. Now, on -- I want to go through some documents with you. And I
19 think most of these have been talked about on direct examination, although
20 I'm unsure about the exhibit numbers with regard to some of them, so I
21 might need some help from the Prosecutor.
22 The first document I want to talk to you about is a document that
23 is attached to your statement as attachment number 7. Do you have the
24 attachments to your statement there in front of you? And does that have
25 an exhibit number?
1 A. [In English] Okay.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: The Prosecutor -- it does not? I'm asking the
3 Prosecutors if that particular document has an exhibit number.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Mr. Ackerman.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.
6 Q. Have you found Attachment 7 to your statement?
7 A. [In English] Yes.
8 Q. This attachment is a letter, is it not, that was sent to you by
9 Rajko Kasagic on 4 December 1991?
10 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
11 Q. And you received that letter, did you not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that letter talks about the reduction of staff at Atlas Prima
14 Tours from 11 staff to 6, does it not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it informs you that the information that Mr. Kasagic has about
17 that was based on complaints of employees dismissed from Atlas Prima
18 Tours, doesn't it?
19 A. That's what it says.
20 Q. And it says that according to the information provided by these
21 dismissed employees, that the remaining employees were two Muslims, two
22 Croats, and two Yugoslavs. And you are accused in that letter of
23 dismissing all of the Serbs and keeping two Muslims, two Croats, and two
24 Yugoslavs; correct?
25 A. That's what it says.
1 Q. Mr. Brdjanin's name does not appear anywhere in this letter, does
3 A. No.
4 Q. His signature doesn't appear on it anywhere, does it?
5 A. No.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm going to hand my copies of these
7 to -- well, I better not do it that way. I want to make these documents
8 exhibits, Your Honour. And the problem is that the copies I have I've
9 made marks on, and I don't think I have a clean copy here with me today.
10 If the registry could tell me an exhibit number, I could then put them in
11 the record tomorrow morning.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: What marks have you made on them, Mr. Ackerman.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: I've got some underlining and then some yellow
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have --
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I've got clean copies here.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Are you prepared to make use of the clean
18 copies that Ms. Sutherland can provide you with us?
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, of course. Of course. That's no problem at
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And these will become --
22 THE REGISTRAR: DB62.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I just want to make sure Mr. Ackerman has a look at
24 them and confirm for us that they are the same documents.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour. They're exactly the same.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Better copies than I have, but otherwise the same.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So those will be DB62 and ...?
4 THE REGISTRAR: A and B.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: A and B.
6 And Madam Registrar, please, if you could let us have copies of
7 them at some point in time.
8 In the meantime, while this is going on, Ms. Sutherland, we still
9 don't have the list of the documents that you are going to make use of
10 during the testimony of the next witness.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. It was that one bundle
12 of documents provided by Ms. Gustin just before we started this afternoon.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I have distributed it to you. I left
14 that on your bench.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it the one with the discovery -- disclosure
16 number 4.1255?
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Okay. Thank you.
19 Go ahead, Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN:
21 Q. Now, you told us during your testimony that there were -- after 4
22 December 1991 and before 30 April 1992, that there were other articles,
23 some newspaper articles, that appeared in the newspaper making -- written
24 by journalists, making essentially the same allegation that you had
25 dismissed the Serb staff and retained two Muslims, two Croats, and two
1 Yugoslavs. That's a fair statement, is it not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, I'd like you to now be provided with Prosecution's Exhibit
4 165. And this is the article that you were referring to where
5 Mr. Brdjanin is speaking about the example of Atlas and how six employees
6 were fired, all six of them Serbs. And what remained was two Muslims, two
7 Croats, and two Yugoslavs, the same thing that all these other people had
8 been saying. Correct?
9 A. Yes, that's what he says. But what he's saying is not correct.
10 Q. I understand it's your position that what all these people are
11 saying is not correct. But I bet there is room in your mind for the
12 possibility that what happened here was that incorrect information was
13 given to Mr. Kasagic in December by one of your former employees, who said
14 you had dismissed all Serbs, and the only people left were two Muslims,
15 two Croats, and two Yugoslavs.
16 That was then picked up by journalists and put in Glas that you
17 had dismissed all the Serbs and that there were only two Muslims, two
18 Croats, and two Yugoslavs left, and that Mr. Brdjanin heard about that
19 from Glas, believed it to be true, and repeated it when he was
20 interviewed. Now, that's a scenario that's probably true, isn't it?
21 A. Precisely so. Everything started with Mr. Dragoljub Lukic's going
22 to the municipality.
23 Q. Right. And is it correct that the people remaining were two
24 Muslims, two Croats, and two Yugoslavs?
25 A. No.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Who were the Yugoslavs?
2 A. I -- when talking about ethnicity, the Yugoslav ethnicity was a
3 product of which I too was a member, so that if we were to apply that
4 principle, then there could be said to have been four Yugoslavs. However,
5 as far as I know, both Mrs. Rada and Mrs. Tijana are of Serb ethnicity and
6 not of Yugoslav ethnicity. Anyway, that nation no longer exists.
7 Q. So when this document from Mr. Kasagic refers to two Yugoslavs,
8 it's actually referring to those two women who are of Serb ethnicity;
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Making it appear that you had fired all the Serbs.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. I'm finished with that document now.
15 Q. The next document, then, in this chain of documents was the
16 decision of the Banja Luka War Staff of 8 May 1992, which you will recall
17 said in paragraph 7: "In the future, tickets for flights to Belgrade may
18 not be sold to persons without the approval of National Defence Councils.
19 The work of the Atlas and Putnik travel agencies are to be placed under
20 the control of the War Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."
21 Now, isn't it the case that --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Yes.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me, Mr. Ackerman. Just for the record,
24 that's Exhibit P179.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: The decision of the 8th of May, 1992,
2 03-297/92 is that the one you're referring to.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: 03-297/92. Yes. That's it.
4 Q. This document which I'm informed is P179. Now, I want to ask you
5 this question. You're familiar with what I'm talking about, are you not?
6 Or do you need to see it?
7 A. I do know, yes. I don't have it here.
8 Q. Isn't it the case that the only reason that the War Staff would
9 become concerned about tickets being sold to persons without the approval
10 of the National Defence Counsel, would be a concern whether it was
11 correct or not that tickets were being sold to people for the purpose of
12 assisting them in leaving the area and avoiding conscription?
13 A. I don't know that. We sold tickets, but tickets were mostly not
14 bought by those persons but by people representing them. Tickets are
16 Q. Well, surely the War Staff of ARK would not be placing your work
17 under the control of the National Defence Council to prevent tickets being
18 sold to non-Serb persons who wanted to leave the area, would they?
19 A. I never received any information about that, nor was there any
20 kind of control. And I think there shouldn't have been any anyway.
21 Q. Well, it doesn't make sense that there would have been a concern
22 that persons were evading conscription at that time by buying tickets and
23 going to Belgrade?
24 A. Yes, there is sense, according to the decision and the opinion of
25 the Crisis Staff, but the control as to whether someone can go or not is
1 checked at the airport. Anyone can buy a ticket but at the check-in,
2 that is where there were representatives of the army and the police who
3 checked things, and they probably should have turned back people who did
4 not have in their possession regular permission issued by the military
6 Q. Well, I suppose it's conceivable that they could have been bribed
7 by wealthy Serbs to allow their privileged sons to leave the area. Isn't
8 that possible?
9 A. At the airport?
10 Q. Yes, at the airport.
11 A. That is possible, yes.
12 Q. I'd like you to look -- and again, I'm not certain about the
13 exhibit number of this document. It's a document of -- well, War
14 Staff/Crisis Staff conclusions of 9 May 1992, 03299/92.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's Exhibit P183.
16 MR. ACKERMAN:
17 Q. I'll ask that you be shown this exhibit, because I think it's
18 important you see this language. We haven't talked about it before.
19 Do you have it in front of you?
20 A. [In English] Yes.
21 Q. I'm interested in having you look at plaintiff's -- at
22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 183, paragraph number 6. "Due to abuses in its work,
23 the Atlas travel agency is prohibited from further work." Do you see
25 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
1 Q. The next paragraph: "The Putnik travel agency alone shall be
2 allowed to sell tickets for flights to Belgrade." Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, the next paragraph: "The above agency, referring obviously
5 to Putnik, may not sell tickets to males aged between 18 and 60 unless
6 they possess a certificate issued by the National Defence Council allowing
7 them to leave the area of the Autonomous Region of Krajina." That's what
8 it says, isn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And doesn't that now make it clear that the concern of the Crisis
11 Staff was that people were leaving who were subject to conscription and
12 that they were trying to prevent that?
13 A. According to them, that was a reason.
14 Q. Yes. Now, this decision was issued on 9 May of 1992. And it said
15 in paragraph 6 that "The Atlas travel agency is prohibited from further
16 work." But Atlas travel agency continued to function after that, didn't
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So the decision of the Crisis Staff had no effect or was ignored
20 or something; correct?
21 A. It was not ignored but in contact with certain persons in the
22 municipality for a short while, they tacitly permitted it to go on working
23 for a while.
24 Q. All right. Let's go on now. And I'd ask you to be provided with
25 Exhibit 532, Prosecution Exhibit 532.
1 Do you have that? There are several things I want to ask you
2 about it. This is a decision, is it not, of the Crisis Staff of 3 June
3 1992, making a second effort to terminate the operation of Atlas travel
4 agency and ordering that it cease operation; correct?
5 A. Yes. But it is not a second decision. It's the first decision
6 that we received.
7 Q. Would you look, please, at the stamp at the bottom right-hand
8 corner of the document.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The stamp says that it is -- I think it says the Socialist Federal
11 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. And then it says the Autonomous Region of the Krajina?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Does it say anywhere on that stamp "the Crisis Staff of the
16 Autonomous Region of Krajina"?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It does refer, does it not, to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, the other thing I'd like you to notice is there is a
21 signature on there. And in front of that signature, you should see the
22 word "Za." Do you see that?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. "Za," means that it was signed by someone else for Mr. Brdjanin,
25 doesn't it?
1 A. I see that now. I didn't pay any attention to that earlier on.
2 But surely he wouldn't have signed it if it was not in agreement with
3 Mr. Brdjanin.
4 Q. Now, that's something you don't know, do you?
5 A. I don't.
6 Q. If it is the case that this decision was never published in the
7 Official Gazette, might it not then be the case that it was never actually
8 approved by Mr. Brdjanin and never became an official document of the
9 Crisis Staff?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: He is equally not in a position to answer that
11 question on the same argument.
12 You were perfectly right when you told him that's something you
13 don't know. Do you?
14 How can you expect him to be in a position to answer this question
16 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Sir -- thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you proceed to your next question.
18 Earlier on, sir, you said that you were asked whether this
19 document says anywhere this Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of
20 Krajina. And you said no. Unless you were referring to the stamp at the
21 bottom of that document.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: We were referring to the stamp, Your Honour.
23 That's what I was asking about.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: To the stamp, but not to the -- not to the heading.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: No, no.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Can he confirm to us --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: In the heading itself, it does mention the
4 Autonomous Region of Krajina and whether it also mentions Crisis Staff
5 of -- situated in Banja Luka.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is normal that the stamp need not
7 go into detail. I know of a host of stamps. And every preamble, as in
8 this case, refers to a part of the Autonomous Region, in this case the
9 Crisis Staff, and that is what we find in the heading.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, in the stamp itself, there are two sides to
11 it. On one side, as I read it, it says "the Serbian Republic of Bosnia
12 and Herzegovina"; is that correct? Or "Socialist Federation Republic of
14 Then -- can you look at that stamp again.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: On both sides -- on either side, there are three
17 lines with words. Let's start with the one at the top. Can you
18 translate -- can you read that out to us. It's "Socialist Federation of
19 the Republics of Yugoslavia"; is that correct?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]"Socialist Federal Republic of
21 Yugoslavia" on both sides.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Then the next line just below, it's --
23 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is
25 that correct.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you read the next line, please, now. I can't
3 read it myself.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So it repeated twice? The third line.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Oh, I see. The third line.
8 "Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Now, let's look. On the other side you have
10 exactly a repetition of the same things, of the same names, or is it
11 anything different, or is it just the same in Cyrillic script now?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: It is the same.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same thing. That was the
15 regular practice in the case of all stamps.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So you do have a mention of the Autonomous Region of
17 Krajina on the stamp.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: He's back in your hands, Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Now, sir, this document we've been talking about is dated 3 June
22 of 1992, isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. This is a document which terminates the operation of Atlas, ceases
25 its operation, and places its premises at the disposal of the Municipal
1 Assembly, and enters into force on the day of its adoption, 3 June 1992;
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And again, Atlas continued to function and ignored that decision.
5 A. No. We didn't ignore it. But in a kind of agreement, if I can
6 call it that, we continued working for a while.
7 Q. Well, at this point, you weren't the director any more, were you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You were just advisor.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, the next thing that happened -- well, not the next thing, but
12 a thing that happened after that was on 26 June of 1992, a letter was
13 issued by Atlas Prima Tours travel agency, which had been ordered to cease
14 operation on the 3rd of June. On the 26th of June, that travel agency
15 issues a letter to you relieving you of your position with that agency,
16 signed by Nada Crljenica; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, if the decision of the Crisis Staff of 3 June and the one
19 preceding that of 9 May had any force at all, there wasn't any Atlas Prima
20 Tours for you to have been fired from. It shouldn't have been in
21 operation. Correct?
22 A. That should -- that question should be asked of Mrs. Nada
24 Q. And the proposition that you were relieved based upon a decision
25 of the Crisis Staff of 22 June makes absolutely no sense at all, because
1 there wasn't any -- as far as a Crisis Staff was concerned, there wasn't
2 any Atlas Prima Tours travel agency on 22 June 1992, was there?
3 A. At the time when I was fired, formally it did exist. And any
4 consequences were borne by Mrs. Nada Crljenica.
5 Q. Yeah. It's probably true that it did exist, because nobody was
6 paying any attention to the decisions of this supposed ARK Crisis Staff or
7 implementing them in any way.
8 I want to show you -- I'm going to hand you -- the usher a
9 document and have him give it to you. And what I'm giving you is simply a
10 clean copy of what is Prosecution's Exhibit 535 but does not have any of
11 the marks on it that you made Friday. Now, on there -- and I'd ask that
12 you put it on the ELMO so we can follow the instructions that I'm going to
13 give you.
14 That's just magic. This works real good, Your Honour. With the
15 Court's permission, I'm going to switch sides of the desk.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do whatever you like, Mr. Ackerman --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. President.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.
19 Q. What I would like you to do is in the building -- the municipal
20 building, skupstina opstina, I would like you to draw on there the
21 location of the front doors of that building, the entry doors to that
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ackerman. Let's do it this way.
24 Let's do it in a different manner.
25 Do you have an extra copy of P535?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Unmarked, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I've given him, Your Honour, is an extra
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So you have given him an extra copy.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is going to be a new exhibit?
7 MR. ACKERMAN: It's going to be a Defence exhibit when I'm
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
10 Have you understood the question?
11 MR. ACKERMAN:
12 Q. Let me give you a pen to draw it with. I don't like that pen.
13 Give me that red pen.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: He has a marker.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: That thing is like -- it's like killing a flea with
16 a sledge hammer, Your Honour.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: The front doors of that building. That is the
19 entry -- the entry doors to that building.
20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Just for the record, what you've done is you
22 first drew entry doors to the park and then realised you had the wrong
23 building and then made the same kind of drawing down on the municipal
24 building --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, sir, can you put your initials next to that
1 mark over here -- over there.
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And can you cross out the other part which you
4 marked in the park and put your initials there as well, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
7 MR. ACKERMAN:
8 Q. And also what I would like you to do is put some kind of a
9 designation next to where you've drawn the front door, your choice, that
10 will show that what you have drawn there are the front doors. You can put
11 "D" for door or whatever you want to put there.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: He knows English. He can write "doors."
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, maybe.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
15 MR. ACKERMAN:
16 Q. And what, sir, did you write there?
17 A. "D."
18 Q. All right. That works.
19 All right. The second thing that I want you to -- this is kind of
20 a redrawing. But I'd like you to again show us on the Atlas building
21 where it was you could look out and see what was going on in the street
22 outside. And you've initialed that, and it's the only mark on the atlas
23 building; correct?
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. You have to say yes so that --
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Thank you very much. All right. Now, that office that you had
3 there was the director's office; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was located on what you call the first floor, which for those
6 of us from the US, at least, understand is the second floor.
7 A. [In English] First floor.
8 Q. It was actually one floor up from the ground, wasn't it?
9 A. [In English] First floor.
10 Q. Yes. But one floor up from the ground.
11 A. [In English] Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And when Nada Crljenica replaced you as director of Atlas,
13 then she took over that office and you didn't sit there anymore; correct?
14 A. [Interpretation] No.
15 Q. So you continued to occupy the director's office?
16 A. No -- yes.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I think the answer was yes.
18 Q. You continued to occupy the director's office?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. And you told us that in that municipal building, the Crisis Staff
21 had offices in that building. Is that what you told us?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you ever see the offices of the Crisis Staff in that
25 A. No. But according to what people said, I know where they were.
1 Q. Where were they?
2 A. I think they were on the second floor. I think.
3 Q. Well, you just told me you knew where they were. Now you're just
5 A. No. I didn't say I knew but according to what people said when
6 my employees went.
7 Q. How many offices did the Crisis Staff have up there on the second
9 A. I don't know that. I never went there.
10 Q. Do you know if there were signs on the door saying "Crisis Staff
11 Autonomous Region of Krajina" or anything like that?
12 A. I don't know. As I said, I never went there.
13 Q. Do you know how many people worked for the Crisis Staff?
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. You told the Chamber that you saw people going in and out of that
16 building who were members of the Crisis Staff. You don't actually know,
17 do you, sir, that they were going there or had been there to attend
18 meetings of the Crisis Staff?
19 A. I did know that. But these were not employees of the Crisis
20 Staff. I don't know how many were employees there. But these were
21 members of that staff.
22 Q. Well, how could you tell they were actually going there to attend
23 meetings of the staff? Did they tell you that?
24 A. After any decision of the Crisis Staff, that was published the
25 following morning. It was written in -- it was published in the Glas
2 Q. So because there was a decision published in Glas, you assume that
3 people you saw going in and out of the building were going to a meeting?
4 A. I knew about a number of them being members of the Crisis Staff.
5 But they also called to their meetings some other people as well,
6 particularly some people who belonged to more famous Banja Luka firms.
7 For instance, Mr. Kustrinovic and Mr. Lanovic [phoen], were not members of
8 the Crisis Staff but they did go to meetings.
9 Q. Did you ever go to a Crisis Staff meeting?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, this being the municipal building for Banja Luka
12 municipality, there were many, many people going out of that building on
13 business of one form or another all day, every day; correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Do you know -- or did you know at that time the persons who were
16 the presidents of the assembly or executive council of any of the other
17 municipalities that were part of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, you didn't make these observations about who was coming and
20 going from that building on a daily basis, did you?
21 A. Well, on Friday, I said it wasn't in a kind of inquisition that
22 was constantly monitoring this. It just happened out of boredom because I
23 had nothing to do. Occasionally I would through the window and I would
24 see who was going in. And from the main members of the Crisis Staff, I
25 saw people going in.
1 Q. You told us on Friday, sir, as a matter of fact, page 74 of the
2 LiveNote: "I didn't observe this every morning. I had also other matters
3 to attend to." And you were referring to Vojo Kupresanin. "I did see him
4 at least a few times." That was your testimony, just to be fair to you,
5 regarding my question.
6 My next question is: To be able to see from your office people
7 entering and leaving that building, you had to actually stand up and look
8 out the window, didn't you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So it wasn't something you could observe just while you were
11 sitting at your desk, was it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you, sir. That's all the questions I have.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
15 Madam Fauveau, you're free to arrange -- I'm not quite sure
16 whether you prefer to use the same place that Mr. Ackerman used for his
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, may I please give a number to this
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's the next DB -- DB number, 63, I think
21 something like that. 63 or 64. I don't remember.
22 THE REGISTRAR: DB63.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: 63.
24 Mr. Ackerman, this diagram, sketch, is now DB63.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you. Your Honour.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Ackerman.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Your microphone.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: I offer that into evidence, then, Your Honour. And
4 there was one other document, 62, that was identified today. I offer them
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
7 Madam Fauveau, are you in a position to start?
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Perhaps you can limit yourself to the
10 preliminaries this next quarter of an hour, because that's all we have,
11 less than that, and then you go to the substance tomorrow. Thank you.
12 Madam Fauveau is the co-counsel for General Talic. And she will
13 be cross-examining you now.
14 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. Yesterday you spoke about a
16 military lorry which was unloading weapons in front of your house. And
17 you said that you were able to see even the number plates of that lorry.
18 Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What were the numbers -- what were the letters that appeared on
21 the number plates?
22 A. Well, that's hard to say now, but these were specific number
23 plates of the former JNA. I know these number plates very well. And
24 there's no doubt that this was a JNA lorry.
25 Q. You do not recall the letters that appeared on the number plates;
1 is that correct?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did all the vehicles of the JNA have the same numbers on their
4 number plates -- the letters?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. The letters that appeared on the JNA vehicles were different,
7 then. They were just denoting vehicles. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The vehicle that belonged to the Territorial Defence, did they
10 have a different number plate compared to the one that -- those that
11 belonged to the JNA?
12 A. As far as I remember, no. I think they had the same registration
13 plates. But I think it was -- there was an additional letter "T" or
14 something like that. But that lorry was not Territorial Defence.
15 Q. You spoke of another occasion which happened in 1992 when a lorry
16 was stopped in front of your house and that it was unloading boxes and
17 crates in front of your house. Do you recall that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You saw this lorry unloading the crates in front of your house,
20 and you were watching through the window; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. I remember. I remember as if it was yesterday.
22 Q. And then you said that these weapons were distributed to uniquely
23 Serbian apartments; is that correct? Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, absolutely. Yes.
25 Q. How were you able to see to which apartments these weapons were
1 distributed or delivered?
2 A. Below my apartment I heard the door opening, and when the weapons
3 were brought in and delivery of the weapons. And then I watched as they
4 carried the crates into other entrances. It's a long building with
5 several entrances. And I knew more or less who lived in the building, and
6 I assumed -- or rather, I don't want to really say I was certain, but none
7 of us received these weapons. We were never offered these weapons.
8 Q. Very well, sir. But you personally, you were not able to see to
9 which apartments the weapons were delivered; is that correct? Physically
10 you did not see it.
11 A. I saw for the apartment that's below me, underneath mine.
12 Q. Did you see it or did you hear it?
13 A. I heard the opening of a door precisely at that very apartment --
14 of that very apartment. I saw somebody enter and somebody leave.
15 Q. Very well. You heard them. But did you see them?
16 A. I saw them as they were entering into the building and when they
17 left the entrance to the building. They were entering with and they were
18 leaving without.
19 Q. My question is very simple: Were you able to see the door of the
20 apartment open and then close, the door of the apartment not of your
22 A. No, I did not. But according to what I heard, I know that that
23 was the apartment, because I didn't dare open the door.
24 Q. Very well. Thank you. Yesterday you spoke of the SOS forces.
25 And you said that you saw them beginning of April 1992; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were you in Banja Luka during the referendum for Bosnia? Do you
3 know when this referendum took place, first of all?
4 A. I don't know exactly. I don't know precisely. Possibly in '90 --
5 Q. Sir, I'm speaking about the referendum for the independence of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992.
7 A. Oh, about that referendum. Yes.
8 Q. This referendum took place on the 29th of February, 1st of March,
9 1992, do you agree with me?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At the time, were you in Banja Luka during those two days of the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On that day, did you see barricades anywhere in Banja Luka?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You said that in 1992, you did not know all the members of the
17 Crisis Staff. Could you tell us the names of those that you are certain
18 in 1992 that they were members of the Crisis Staff.
19 A. I remember some names. Puvacic, Kupresanin, Rosic, Erceg, and
20 then the man from the police -- two of them, in fact, Zupljanin. I
21 remember those names.
22 Q. Yesterday you spoke about General Talic, and you said that you
23 thought that his brother went to school with you. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes. I said that. But I said I wasn't certain whether that was
25 General Talic's brother's brother or his brother. I'm not sure about
1 that. But that colleague of mine, who's a urologist, he's a medical
2 specialist, he is in a hospital in Belgrade. He works in a hospital in
3 Belgrade. And the last time I saw him was at the celebration of the
4 finals, school finals in Banja Luka, sometime in the 1980s, at the -- in
5 late 1980s.
6 Q. If I tell you that this person has absolutely no connection to
7 General Talic, would you still be certain that the person that you saw
8 twice enter the municipality building was General Talic?
9 A. Yes, I would.
10 Q. You said that you saw General Talic enter the municipality
11 building twice. Could you give us more specific detail on the period.
12 A. At the time of very intense sessions of the Crisis Staff, and
13 Mr. Talic was himself a member of the Crisis Staff.
14 Q. But here two minutes ago, you did not mention him.
15 A. Well, you will allow me that I cannot immediately remember all the
16 names. I would have remembered perhaps more names in the meantime. I
17 can't say that I'm a computer who can just type it in and then produce
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, I think we can stop here for today,
20 if that's convenient with you.
21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I just -- I have two
22 more questions, so that I can finish with this topic, if Mr. --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Sir, in 1992, did you know that General Talic was a member of the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Crisis Staff? In 1992.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you still have before you your written statement that you gave
4 to the Prosecutor's office in May 2001?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you please look on page 7. It's on the third paragraph in
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. This is the third paragraph at the end in B/C/S. You spoke about
10 the members of the Crisis Staff. And you said: [In English] "I saw other
11 Serbs enter the building, such as Rajko Kasagic, Momir Talic, and Predrag
12 Radic, but I'm not sure they were Crisis Staff members."
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. [Interpretation] At the time when you gave this statement, you
15 were not certain that General Talic was a member of the Crisis Staff.
16 A. No.
17 Q. You were not certain; is that correct?
18 A. At the time, no.
19 Q. And today? Why are you certain today?
20 A. Because in the meantime, I had the opportunity to look at class
21 newspaper issues, which I -- while I was in Banja Luka was not able to
22 have before me. And that's how I acquired this knowledge.
23 Q. I'm going to return to my first question. In 1992, when you were
24 in Banja Luka, did you know that General Talic was a member of the Crisis
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you?
3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I continue tomorrow?
4 Mr. President, I think I only have 20 minutes tomorrow.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So prepare yourselves for the next witness.
6 I suppose he should be here from the beginning of the session. Keep him
7 separate from this witness.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
10 So once more, I thank the interpreters, the technicians and
11 everyone. We'll meet tomorrow afternoon at 2.15, like today, in this
12 courtroom, Courtroom I.
13 Good evening.
14 THE WITNESS: Good evening. Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Please escort the witness out.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.31 p.m., to
18 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of April,
19 2002, at 2.15 p.m.