1 Tuesday, 23 April 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 1.40 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could we call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear
9 me in a language that you can understand?
10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your
11 Honours. I can hear you and understand you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a
14 language that you can understand?
15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
16 I can hear you and understand you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner, assisted by Denise
19 Gustin, case manager. Good afternoon, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
21 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm John Ackerman, along with Marela
23 Jevtovic for Mr. Brdjanin. Good afternoon to you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
25 Appearances for General Talic.
1 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my name is
2 Xavier de Roux, and Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic for General Talic.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Any preliminaries?
4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your
7 Honours, I'm very sorry but I'm going to have to go back to the question
8 of the 90(H) yesterday.
9 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. We can hear the counsel for Defence
10 very poorly. Could she perhaps raise the microphone.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Your voice is not reaching the interpreters well
13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will approach the
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was very surprised
17 yesterday when Ms. Korner said -- and I'm going to quote her words in
18 order to avoid interpretation that could be erroneous.
19 [In English] If General Talic, were he to give evidence, were
20 going to say in evidence, "I did not use those words," then it must be put
21 to the witness that he's either mistaken or lying when he says that
22 General Talic used those words.
23 [Interpretation] Unfortunately, yesterday I did not have your
24 decision with me. However, I do know what you wrote in this decision.
25 And now I've got it. And in the paragraph 14, on page 6 -- I believe that
1 is page 7 in the English version -- the Chamber has decided that it is
2 good to underline, however, that there is no absolute rule or general rule
3 that can oblige the Defence counsel to give --
4 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. We do not have the
5 decision in front of us, the English version in front of us. It is --
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In light of this decision,
7 I would like to ask the Chamber --
8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. The interpreters, because they don't have
9 the English, are having a great deal of difficulty in following. If you
10 could -- do Your Honours have the motion with you?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course not. I wasn't prepared to -- for this. I
12 mean, we were not told, except just before I walked in, that Madam Fauveau
13 was going to raise something related to 90(H). Otherwise, I didn't come
14 -- I don't come here with all the previous decisions and rulings of this
15 Chamber, obviously.
16 MS. KORNER: We've got -- can I hand up our copy?
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course.
18 MS. KORNER: And if Madam Fauveau could read the English version,
19 it's probably easier for the interpreters. Oh, I see you're going to read
20 the English yourself, okay.
21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now reread it in
22 English. [In English] "It should be pointed out, however, that there is
23 no absolute or general rule requiring Defence counsel to put to the
24 Prosecution the accused's version of the events or to put the witness on
25 notice of every date the Defence counsel does not accept."
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, in the light of this
3 decision, I cannot see why I should be obliged to present to the witness
4 the words of General Talic.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Madam Fauveau, again, once more - and I am
6 not going to reopen the discussion - you are misunderstanding completely
7 the whole concept behind our decision and behind the rationale of Rule
8 90(H). You are not requested to tell the witness what your client is
9 going to testify if he -- if he testifies, or if he decides to testify.
10 If there is something which -- well, I'm not going to say more. I'm
11 sorry, I'm not going to say more. What we had to say, we said it in our
12 decision, which is now subject to appeal and --
13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to tell you or Mr. Ackerman how you
15 should conduct your cross-examination in the light of our decision on
16 90(H). That's up to you.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think all one can -- I see Maitre de
18 Roux is on his feet.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Again, I'm sorry, on one particular matter
20 under discussion, only one counsel will be allowed to make
21 representations, not two. I cannot allow Madam Fauveau to stand up and
22 make submissions and then allow you to stand up to make submissions on the
23 same. Decide amongst yourself who is going to make submissions, but only
24 one counsel will be allowed to make submissions on a specific matter.
25 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are a defence
1 team, and you know that well, and I believe that there are problems of
2 principle. I think that there are problems of principle that are being
3 presented in the procedures before the Tribunal and where it is necessary
4 to intervene.
5 And now, I don't have any problem with your interpretation and
6 with your decision. Your decision is extremely clear. I have a problem
7 with the Prosecution, which is always putting into question the decision
8 that you have issued. As far as I'm concerned, I am perfectly satisfied
9 with the interpretation given by the Tribunal, which seems to me perfectly
10 in accordance with Rule 90(H), and what I'm saying, I'm not saying this
11 for you, Mr. President, I'm saying this for the Prosecution, for
12 Ms. Korner, and paragraph (H) says that --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, Maitre de Roux. Stop. I am not going
14 to allow any further discussion on 90(H). That matter has been decided by
15 this Trial Chamber. There is an appeal pending and it will be decided by
16 the Court of Appeal. In the meantime, what was stated yesterday stays,
17 remains. The matter is not open for further discussion, neither from your
18 side nor from Mr. Ackerman's side nor from Ms. Korner's side, and we
19 proceed with the -- any other further preliminaries that you may have.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I propose that we conclude with this
21 witness's testimony and then raise the matters before moving on.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you do, I don't know if you are aware of the
23 decision which was handed down by Trial Chamber II in Stakic this morning
24 regarding 7.35.
25 MS. KORNER: In that we can disclose the transcripts, yes.
1 However, the witness is leaving today at 6.00.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But I wanted to make sure --
3 MS. KORNER: I'm aware of that decision. Thank you very much,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We may go into closed session now,
7 [Closed session]
12 Pages 4804-4829 – redacted – closed session
5 --- Recess taken at 3.10 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.
7 [Open session]
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before we move now to Sanski Most, may
9 I, as it were, deal with a few matters that are connected with still the
10 Banja Luka municipality and then how we see this case going?
11 The first thing, Your Honour, is that we have not yet, in fact,
12 dealt with quite a lot of the documents that are in binder -- volumes 2, 3
13 and 4 of the Banja Luka documents, but I have a witness here and I'm
14 anxious, as I'm sure Your Honours are, to move on.
15 We haven't completed the Banja Luka municipality for a number of
16 reasons. We still have the witnesses from the humanitarian organisation;
17 we still have Colonel Selak, who, although in fact he's going to come in
18 when and if we ever reach Prijedor in this case; there is also the witness
19 who is going to deal with the diary, and I think the translation is more
20 or less now sorted. Just for the record, as Your Honour knows, we, as it
21 were, selected what we thought remained that ought to be translated,
22 excised some of the stuff that seemed to us to be completely irrelevant.
23 The defence know about it, so unless they've got --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let her finish, Mr. Ackerman.
25 MS. KORNER: So unless they've got in touch with CLSS to say they
1 want more translated than we've indicated, all that will be translated is
2 what we've indicated, but that's the rest of the diary.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we are working on that process. The
4 list that we got from the Prosecutor was -- it's like the same complaint
5 Ms. Korner has about some of the things I give her. They told us the
6 things that they were going to translate rather than the things that they
7 weren't so we have to now go through day after day after day and find what
8 it is they have not designated for translation to determine whether or not
9 there is material in there we think must be translated. We are engaged in
10 that process.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And we depend entirely on the three of you - on you,
12 Mr. Ackerman, on Maitre de Roux, and on you, Ms. Korner - because you have
13 assistance in having someone who knows the Serbo-Croat language to --
14 while we don't. So we depend entirely on you.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: It doesn't come from me. It comes from people who
16 help me.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.
18 Yes, Ms. Korner.
19 MS. KORNER: And he will clearly not be called before September of
20 this year, when we are told the diary translation will be complete.
21 So in a sense, and it's -- perhaps it fits in with the general
22 tenor of the case. Banja Luka runs -- will run through the rest of this
24 Associated with that, as Your Honours know, because I raised, or
25 associated with Banja Luka, Mr. Dzonlic provided his documents. I cannot
1 resist saying this in open court, in the light of Mr. Ackerman's comment.
2 There were some 13 dismissal letters. Five in terms state that the
3 dismissals are occasioned by the ARK Crisis Staff decision of the 22nd of
4 June, but we suddenly realised that today was the last day. Your Honours
5 said 14 days. They've been here for a week so I'm just saying that they
6 will be given to Mr. Ackerman and to General Talic's team tomorrow.
7 Your Honour, that brings me on to the general progress of the
8 case. Banja Luka we knew would take some time because the witnesses are
9 all, as it were, dealing with (a), the -- particularly Mr. Brdjanin and
10 the events in Banja Luka. And none were specifically crime-base, that is,
11 describing events that happened to them.
12 Your Honour, we, in the interests of, we hope, good management and
13 efficiency, have taken another look at the case over the last few weeks,
14 in particular whether we feel that it is in the interests of good case
15 management, efficiency, and necessity to call all the evidence that we
16 indicated we would call.
17 In particular, we have taken a decision that in relation to five
18 particular municipalities - which I will now name so that the Defence and
19 Your Honours are aware in advance - we are going to drastically reduce the
20 evidence, both in terms of the documents and the witnesses who are
21 listed. Those are as follows, in alphabetical, as opposed to the order
22 which they may be set out in the indictment:
23 First of all, Bosanska Dubica. There will be no more than two
24 witnesses called.
25 If necessary, I can tell Your Honours the -- the numbers of the
1 witnesses, and my learned friends at this stage, though we're some
2 distance off. I'm in the Court's hands on that.
3 In respect of Bosanska Gradiska, one witness.
4 In respect of Donji Vakuf, two witnesses.
5 In respect of Ripac, one witness -- Ripac-Bihac.
6 And in respect of Sipovo, two witnesses only.
7 And Your Honours, I can say the documents for those municipalities
8 don't even -- we will give a full list eventually or before we get there.
9 They will be -- have already been reduced to something less than one
10 binder for all those municipalities.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And how does this -- because I wasn't expecting
12 this, obviously, and therefore, I do not have the documents before me.
13 How does this compare with what you had intended or told us --
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in respect of those municipalities, I
15 think we listed something in the region of four or five witnesses plus
16 some Rule 92. It's almost certain we won't even be applying for Rule 92.
17 Effectively, the concentration of this case, we feel, both from the view
18 of the Defence and of Your Honours, should be on the -- what we've listed
19 as the five or six major municipalities.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. What I suggest to you are two things,
21 Ms. Korner. First, I think that the Defence teams would be interested or
22 should be provided with the names of the witnesses that you intend to
23 bring forward in these five --
24 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I can do that right now. I'll
25 just give their numbers.
1 In respect of Dubica, 7.9 and 7.104 will be called.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.
3 MS. KORNER: In respect of Gradiska, 7.126.
4 In respect of Donji Vakuf, 7.159 and 7.156.
5 In respect of Ripac, 7.71.
6 And in respect of Sipovo, 7.176 and 7.116.
7 Your Honour, in addition, it's -- the evidence on Prnjavor will
8 not be much longer than that, but there are -- it's slightly more
9 complicated because of the military aspect to that municipality.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: How would this reflect -- the second thing was this
11 one: How would this reflect on the length of the case for the
12 Prosecution? In other words, would --
13 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it will certainly knock some time
14 off. We're rather in the hands of the Defence on the length of
15 cross-examination, appreciating that up till now the evidence in chief has
16 normally been -- not always, but normally been longer because of the
17 documents. And as I think I said to Your Honour yesterday, the next
18 witness for Sanski Most will be a very lengthy witness because effectively
19 he can deal with just about every document going, for reasons that Your
20 Honour will hear.
21 After that, the evidence will be much, much shorter in each
22 witness because it relates to a particular crime or set of crimes. And
23 really there is no other witness that for the moment I can bring to mind
24 from any other municipality who's going to be quite as lengthy as this
25 witness is going be.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Would the Defence like to put in some
2 remarks, comments?
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm wondering if Ms. Korner might be able to
4 elaborate just a little bit on how she sees this affecting the time. For
5 instance, does she believe that the Prosecutor's case can be completed
6 during this calendar year? Because it would make a difference to our
7 efforts whether we -- the Prosecutor's case is going to take another nine
8 months or 12 months. Until I know that, it will affect how I have to deal
9 with getting my case ready to go, basically.
10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's the difficulty. I could
11 make an educated guess and say that if cross-examination were limited, the
12 answer is yes, we would finish by the end of this calendar year. It
13 depends on breaks, on events like Mr. Ackerman has described happening in
14 Banja Luka, as far as his team is concerned, adjournments. Were we to sit
15 throughout, between now and the end of the year, with just having the
16 break in the summer, the answer is probably yes, but it's terribly
17 difficult to guess.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And perhaps after the next meeting you have with
19 Mr. Von Hebel, the picture should be even better.
20 MS. KORNER: I don't think, Your Honour, given the meetings this
21 Thursday - and I'm not sure what the point of the meeting is any more,
22 because effectively, we have given Your Honour the information. We
23 provided the chart.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's true, but Ms. Korner, we were also a little
25 bit, not exactly sceptical but almost, before the first of such meetings
1 was held, and we all came to the conclusion that it was very positive and
2 I think I would stick to that procedure, because first of all, the
3 informal atmosphere is conducive to your cooperating more with one
4 another, and also in bringing out the problems that besiege this trial
5 from time to time, so ...
6 MS. KORNER: Actually, Your Honour, I would say on balance,
7 despite some of the remarks yesterday and today - and I'm as much to blame
8 as the Defence - we are actually cooperating rather well on the whole.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think you are; and one other thing I want to
10 make clear, Ms. Korner, is that so far, at least, I cannot in all honesty
11 criticise in the least the Defence in the way they have been conducting
12 their cross-examination. It hasn't been too lengthy, too long, or beyond
13 what one would expect in a case like this, and I think also it has been
14 very professionally conducted so far, and I'm quite happy. Perhaps - and
15 I have been seriously thinking about this over the past months - perhaps I
16 might come to the conclusion that I would start intervening, stepping in,
17 more than I have, both during the examination-in-chief and during
18 cross-examination, to try and eliminate certain questions or curtail on
19 certain questions, especially now that we have -- we are going into the
20 fourth month in this trial and certain facts have already been mentioned
21 by various witnesses and certain other facts made abundantly clear, in the
22 opinion of the Tribunal, which would make it perhaps superfluous to have
23 certain questions repeated and certain answers repeated. So don't be
24 surprised if there comes a time very, very soon, when I will stop you from
25 putting certain questions or say he doesn't need to answer it because the
1 Chamber is satisfied that that answer -- that there is already enough
2 information on -- I will try to do it as least as possible because my
3 belief is the least I interfere, the better it is, but there may come a
4 time when I will have to do that.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we would be most grateful for any
6 indication the Trial Chamber cared to give that they don't require further
7 evidence on any particular topic. And as Your Honour says, if Your Honour
8 simply steps in and makes that clear, then we would be very grateful.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, there are still a few couple of
11 matters. The first is - I just go back to it - Your Honour did say you
12 might be able to tell us about May the 17th.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I am able to tell you. I discussed it today.
14 I don't think I -- we have the option. It was made abundantly clear to me
15 that I'm expected to stick by the decision that has been taken by the
17 MS. KORNER: No breaking of ranks?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So there won't be any sitting on the 17th
19 of May.
20 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. That's very
21 helpful from the point of view of witnesses.
22 Your Honour, the only other thing is in respect of the Sanski Most
23 Rule 92 application. I don't say it's particularly urgent, but I think
24 Your Honour said you were expecting to give a ruling at some stage in the
25 near future.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm just looking for -- yes. We will -- and I
2 don't have the document in front of me at the moment, Ms. Korner, but we
3 are definitely looking into that and we'll have it decided -- I don't know
4 where I put it. We will have it decided in due course.
5 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, I'm grateful to Your Honour. Just we did
6 have a request -- we made an error in saying that one witness supported
7 another. And we've supplied -- or we were going to supply the statement
8 today of the witness whose evidence the Rule 92 one supports.
9 Your Honour, that's all I have to raise, unless there are any
10 matters that Your Honour would wish to raise before we turn --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The only thing I wanted to raise was this: I
12 found here -- I was given today a whole bundle of documents --
13 MS. KORNER: Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- plus two more documents which I understand are to
15 replace two other documents with the same number that were inserted in our
16 Banja Luka --
17 MS. KORNER: I gather, there was an error. Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the Sanski Most binders. That is -- okay. That
19 is point taken.
20 These others, this whole bundle, is this an extra --
21 MS. KORNER: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is an extra binder, no?
23 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, these are extra documents that the
24 witness -- were attached to his statement effectively but weren't
25 contained in the Banja Luka -- I'm doing it now -- Sanski Most binders.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And may I ask you if these were all - without
2 exception, in other words - included in the document that Mr. Inayat
3 produced in the very beginning of this trial?
4 MS. KORNER: No. These are documents that the witness -- the
5 witness himself produced. Although, as Your Honours are going to hear,
6 this particular witness is in fact the source of a number of documents
7 that are in the Sanski Most binder. But in addition to that, when he was
8 seen on the four or five different occasions, he himself produced extra
9 documents which didn't go into the Sanski Most binders. So those are on
11 Now, Your Honours, I should tell you I think some of them are a
12 bundle of exhumation reports. He conducted them. Your Honour, although I
13 wanted them all produced physically - because you never know when they may
14 not become important - I'm only going to refer to selected parts of them
15 with the witness as examples.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think -- I think it will become -- I'm
18 sorry, in a sense it almost becomes simpler if we hand them out at the
19 time the witness is going to refer to them rather than giving them all to
20 Your Honours in advance. But --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I don't -- I don't have a problem with that.
22 The only thing I want to make sure of is that the -- that the Defence have
23 been given these documents, which I suppose they have.
24 MS. KORNER: They got them with the statements, Your Honour, or
25 through other disclosure.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And that there are no translation problems.
2 MS. KORNER: Not as far as I'm aware. I think some were disclosed
3 last Friday. But unless I'm told differently, I don't think there are any
4 translation problems.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we got some documents within the last few
7 days -- maybe the ones last Friday, the ones that she's talking about --
8 that were B/C/S only. We haven't got any English translations of any of
10 MS. KORNER: Yes. Some are -- some are just pure lists of names,
11 which we didn't bother to translate.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Those are -- and if that's all there is, I don't
13 have any problem.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And in any case, as I understand, they need not
15 necessarily be documents that we will be making use of.
16 MS. KORNER: No. In particular, the list of names --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, the list of names is easy. It's not the
19 MS. KORNER: Well, exactly. All the exhumation -- all the earlier
20 stuff, which is the bulk of it, has been -- or a sample, at least, has
21 been translated.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Ms. Korner.
23 And I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Since I haven't seen the pile of documents you've
25 been handed, it's difficult for me to tell you whether or not I have them.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Well, what I would invite you to do is that if
2 there are problems, Mr. Ackerman, please let me know in good time.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: My assumption is that we have them. But the only
4 way I could really be certain is if somebody would hand me a pile of them
5 and I would spend, you know, a couple of hours going through them. But I
6 think we have them all.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.
8 So can we bring the witness in now?
9 MS. KORNER: Yes.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please, Mr. Adil Draganovic.
11 MS. KORNER: It's actually Judge Draganovic.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Is he a current judge?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, he is a current judge. He was also President
14 of the Tribunal before he was ...
15 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, could I ask when the next break is
16 going to be, so I know when --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The next break will be at 4.35 -- sorry, at 4.20.
18 MS. KORNER: 4.20.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. More or less.
20 I think this is a better system, having a 15-minute break every
21 hour and 15 minutes rather than a break after two hours, because I keep my
22 eyes wide open during the -- during the sitting and try to notice what --
23 what's going on, and apart from the interpreters, it's also the
24 stenographers having to sit down two solid hours going that and -- I -- it
25 must be very tiring. So I think we'll stick to the hour and 15 minutes
1 and then a pause for 15 minutes.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Judge.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: The gentleman standing next to you is going to hand
8 you a specimen solemn declaration to speak the truth, the whole truth, and
9 nothing but the truth, and -- which you are kindly asked to make in this
10 courtroom before you start your testimony.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: ADIL DRAGANOVIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and you may sit down.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, you being a judge, I need hardly explain the
18 routine, the procedure here.
19 We are the Chamber. I'm the Presiding Judge. To my right is
20 Judge Janu from the Czech Republic, and to my left is Judge Taya from
22 And it's more or less the procedure is similar to any other court
23 of criminal jurisdiction. You will be asked questions first by the
24 Prosecutor, who is to your right, and after that, the two teams, two
25 Defence teams - one for Mr. Brdjanin, which is the one nearest to you, and
1 followed by the Defence team for General Talic - will cross-examine you.
2 The persons you see in front obviously are the registry.
3 Ms. Korner will commence her examination-in-chief now. Should at
4 any time -- should you at any time like to have a break, apart from the
5 breaks that we will be having in the course of normality, please just let
6 me know. Thank you.
7 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examined by Ms. Korner:
9 Q. Sir, is your name Adil Draganovic?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. And were you born on the 30th of August, 1952?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And are you a Muslim by ethnicity, now called Bosniak?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And are you still at the moment the Court President, and therefore
16 Judge, at the municipal court in Sanski Most?
17 A. Yes, I am.
18 Q. And were you originally appointed to that position in 1988?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. You, as we are going to hear, were arrested in May of 1992, and
21 kept in the Manjaca prison camp after a short period in the police
22 station, until December of 1992?
23 A. Yes, I was arrested, that's right.
24 Q. And after December, 1992, did you leave the country?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. And did you return to Sanski Most after it had been retaken by the
2 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in October of 1995?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And did you resume, eventually, your position in the court as the
6 A. Yes, I did return, yes.
7 Q. All right. Before I come to the various matters which you're
8 going to deal with, I think it's right that you have in total made a
9 number - one, two, three, four - four -- five statements to the Office of
10 the Prosecutor. You probably don't remember.
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And were you given an opportunity, before coming into Court, to
13 refresh your memory from the contents of these statements?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And in addition, I think you've had a chance to look at some, if
16 not all, of the documents that relate to the Sanski Most area?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And I just want to make the position clear. I think this is
19 right: You yourself were present in Sanski Most until June of 1992, when
20 you were transported to Manjaca; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct, until the 17th of June, 1992.
22 Q. But after your return to Sanski Most in 1995, effectively, you
23 were in charge of the investigations into possible human rights violations
24 and crimes that had been committed in Sanski Most?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. And by "within Sanski Most," I mean also within the municipality,
2 as opposed to just the town.
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. And so as a result, have you seen a number of documents and, I
5 suppose items is the way of describing it, as a result of your
7 A. Yes, I did. I saw many documents that I believe to be evidence
8 for the International Tribunal for War Crimes.
9 Q. I just want to make it clear to the Trial Chamber the sources of
10 the evidence you're going to give. I think it's effectively three:
11 Firstly, events which you witnessed yourself and were present at that
12 time; is that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Secondly, matters that people told you about that had happened
15 after your arrest and whilst you were in Manjaca?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And then thirdly, matters that have come to your attention as a
18 result of the investigations that you carried out after the Dayton
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And just so that you understand, so it's important that when you
22 give evidence about matters, you make it clear how you know about these
23 matters and how you've come across various documents.
24 A. Yes, I will say it.
25 Q. And I think that you yourself submitted a number of documents and
1 statements to the Office of the Prosecutor at this Tribunal?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. And have you worked in liaison with the office of AID, both in
4 Sanski Most and in Sarajevo?
5 A. Yes. I cooperated with the AID.
6 Q. And then finally, I think, as part of your investigations, you
7 were present at, and dealt with reports on, exhumations of effectively
8 mass graves that were discovered really from late 1995 onwards?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And finally, before we begin on events, I forgot to mention you
11 also, I think, made a number of statements to the German authorities in
12 connection with proposed prosecutions that they were going to mount?
13 A. Yes. I gave a number of statements.
14 Q. Can we just deal, then, sir, first of all, Judge, very briefly,
15 with your background. I think that you went to Sarajevo University and
16 studied law, graduating in 1975?
17 A. That's right, yes.
18 Q. After graduation, I think you worked for a small company and then
19 did your mandatory military service in 1977?
20 A. Yes. I served my military service from 1977 to 1978 in Pristina.
21 Q. Did you actually serve with an anti-aircraft artillery unit of the
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And as a result of your service, did you become familiar with the
25 weapons that were used by the JNA?
1 A. Well, yes, I did.
2 Q. I'm not suggesting an expert, just familiar.
3 A. As much as I could, of course.
4 Q. Now, subsequently, did you go to Bosanska Dubica and work as an
5 assistant director to the local hospital for about four years?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Then in Dubica, did you in fact become a judge and work with the
8 municipal court there for about six years?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Then in 1987, were you offered the opportunity to become a judge
11 in the Sanski Most court?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And --
14 A. I mean, it's correct. Yes.
15 Q. And after you'd been there for about a year, were you designated
16 as the court President?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And as a result of that appointment, apart from your work within
19 the court system itself, did you also deal with government and other
20 official bodies of power and people in authority generally in the
22 A. Yes. I did some work in the municipality as an expert member of a
23 municipal committee.
24 Q. Now, before we go any further, I'd like you to be shown, please,
25 and the Court, perhaps, to remind ourselves of where Sanski Most lies.
1 Could you be shown --
2 MS. KORNER: I cannot remember whether we produced it, but it's
3 the map of the Krajina area. Whether it has an exhibit number ...
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, yes.
5 MS. KORNER: Yes. P446.1, I'm told it is.
6 And if the witness could have that.
7 Q. Sir, if we just look at that -- the map, we see that the
8 municipality of Prijedor lies to the north-eastish, I suppose, Banja Luka
9 to the east, and then Kljuc to the south --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose, Ms. Korner, I suppose that if there is an
11 extra copy which could be put on the ELMO, the video recording and
12 everything would make more sense.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I didn't realise Your Honours didn't have
16 it there.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The problem is not us having it or not having it.
18 Since you are making specific references to the map, I suppose that if
19 there is one on the ELMO, it can be captured on the video recording of the
21 MS. KORNER: Yes. Yes, thank you. Thank you very much, Your
22 Honour. I keep forgetting there's going to be a video recording.
23 Q. Yes. We were saying -- I was saying, rather, Kljuc to the
24 south -- sorry, west, and then Petrovac to the south, Krupa, Novi, and
25 then Prijedor. So in fact Sanski Most now is in the centre of this
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 particular area.
2 You can see marked on the map, sir, the various towns and
3 villages, indicating whether they were largely, if not completely, either
4 containing persons of Serb ethnicity or of Muslim or Croat. And would you
5 agree that's -- that's roughly an accurate depiction? You can see the
6 Muslim are in green; the Serb in blue, I think; and Croat in orange.
7 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, I can see it on the map.
8 Q. How far away was the town of Sanski Most from Prijedor town?
9 A. Sanski Most is 28 kilometres away from Prijedor, and Prijedor is
10 located to the north in relation to the Sanski Most municipality.
11 Q. Yes. Now, could you, while we're on the subject of maps, please
12 be shown another map, this time the one -- and I think this is a new
13 exhibit -- of the town of Sanski Most.
14 MS. KORNER: And it's one of the ones that we've prepared with
15 photographs, Your Honour, of various places. Your Honour, I don't think
16 this has been allocated an exhibit number yet, so -- we premarked the
17 Sanski Most binders. So that will be 600 --
18 Well, Your Honour, what we did -- we still have some spare numbers
19 going between 500 and whatever -- 47.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, exactly. That's what I understood.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was wondering whether it wouldn't be
22 easier to keep Sanski Most starting at 600 and move upwards, even though
23 there's some missing exhibit numbers, if you see what I mean. So I'm
24 going to ask if we can -- all right. It may not be the clearest
25 explanation -- if we can be given -- yeah.
1 Anyhow, we'll be given the number in a moment.
2 Q. Now, sir, can you look at this map.
3 MS. KORNER: And perhaps -- yes, that's been put on the ELMO.
4 Thank you.
5 Q. Does that show a map of the town of Sanski Most, a plan?
6 A. Yes, this is a map of the town of Sanski Most with the immediate
8 Q. Now, we can see --
9 MS. KORNER: And again, Your Honours, I should indicate these
10 photographs were taken last year, so they're not the same -- I'm sorry, it
11 isn't as it was in 1992.
12 Q. First of all, can we look at photograph number 7, which is the
13 Mahala part of Sanski Most. Was that where you lived?
14 A. Yes, that's right. That's where my house is, where I lived, and
15 where I still live today.
16 Q. And can we look at the photograph that was taken, as I say, last
17 year. In 1992 -- sorry, perhaps the -- we may get some of the photographs
18 brought in -- but did Mahala look much as it does in that photograph, it
19 being rebuilt?
20 A. As far as the number of houses is concerned, or private houses,
21 family houses, I think that the number is identical as in 1992. In 1992,
22 the houses, more than 80 per cent of them were set on fire, destroyed,
23 razed to the ground.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. But after --
1 Q. Yes. But it was rebuilt, as -- it was rebuilt, as I think we can
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Now, that area of Sanski Most - we are going to hear about the
5 various ethnicities in a moment - was it mixed ethnicity or just one
6 particular ethnicity that lived there?
7 A. In Sanski Most, several ethnicities lived; Muslims, Serbs, Croats,
8 and there were other ethnicities as well. In total, the municipality had
9 about 61.000 inhabitants.
10 Q. And in the settlement or the area of Mahala, was that mixed or was
11 it one particular ethnicity?
12 A. In Mahala, Mahala was inhabited exclusively by Muslims, 100 per
13 cent Muslims.
14 Q. While we are looking at the map, then, were there any areas in
15 Sanski Most that were, for example, entirely Serb?
16 A. Yes, there were such areas. For instance, the locality of Dabar,
17 Kruhari, where there were also several Croatian houses.
18 Q. All right. I think we will have to get -- there is a third map
19 but I'll come back to that one. Can we just look at, please, some of the
20 areas that have been photographed? We'll leave out photograph number 1
21 for the time being because that will become more relevant when you've told
22 us what happened. The SUP, the police station, did that look roughly the
23 same in 1992 as we can see in this photograph?
24 A. Yes. This is the building of SUP. It was also the building of
25 the Secretariat for People's Defence in 1992, and today it looks the same
1 as it did in 1992.
2 Q. And then again, I think we'll leave the other photographs. All
3 right, could you be handed now, finally, a third map which shows Sanski
4 Most with the places that you've just mentioned.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we get an exhibit number on this so that it
7 is reflected in the transcript?
8 MS. KORNER: Quite right. Could that be made Prosecutor's Exhibit
9 757, please?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner, and thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
11 MS. KORNER: In fact, Your Honour, could that be made 757A and
12 then the next map B so we keep the maps together, the one I'm about to
13 hand out.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: We are using A and B to designate English and
15 B/C/S, so we cannot do that.
16 MS. KORNER: All right, yes, 1.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: 757.1.
18 MS. KORNER: And the next one will be 757.2. I'm sorry, Your
19 Honour, I think Your Honour said -- no.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we will break --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we need to break now. We will give this map
23 its number, exhibit number.
24 MS. KORNER: 757.2.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And we will break for 15 minutes.
1 We are going to have a short break, sir, and you will continue
2 with your evidence immediately after.
3 --- Recess taken at 4.23 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.43 p.m.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it may be -- I mean, this is not a
6 protected witness. In future, if the witness is in court before Your
7 Honours come in -- because the witness room is quite a long way away.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you're right, Ms. Korner.
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. Judge, we were about to look at the map of the Sanski Most area
11 itself. You talked about areas that were effectively Serb areas. And can
12 we see those marked with purple -- in purple?
13 A. Yes, I see this map of the Sanski Most municipality. I see that
14 in green are areas principally inhabited by Muslims. I also see that red
15 indicates some areas with the predominant Croat population, apart from
16 Poljak, which had a mixed population, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.
17 Q. And --
18 A. I also -- excuse me. I also note that blue indicates places with
19 a predominant Serb population, although in some of these areas, the
20 inhabitants were of mixed origin, such as Kljevci, Budimlic-Japra.
21 Kasapnica is an area where there were no Serbs. In other such places,
22 Serbs were the predominant population. So this is my answer.
23 Q. Did you just indicate the one -- it may be well if you'd indicate
24 on the ELMO with a pointer. Which was the one you say there were no
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, if he is going to indicate on the ELMO,
2 please perhaps you could either move the ELMO nearer to him, if you can.
3 I don't -- and --
4 And Judge, please -- exactly.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said, the place called
6 Kasapnica, at which I'm pointing now. As I have said, Badimlic-Japra --
7 where Muslims and Serbs both lived. Some parts of Badimlic-Japra were
8 inhabited by Muslims and some others by Serbs. Poljak - and I'm pointing
9 at it now - had a mixed population of Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.
10 MS. KORNER:
11 Q. So you're saying, are you -- would you say that the Croats were
12 larger than the other two ethnicities in Poljak?
13 A. Well, no, I don't think I'd say that.
14 Q. Okay. So that -- in that case, that's misleading, I think.
15 And could we go back to Kasapnica. Are you saying that there were
16 no Serbs there? It wasn't a Serb village, as far as you were concerned?
17 A. Kasapnica was an area which the Croat population abandoned.
18 Q. The Croat population.
19 A. As far as I know.
20 I'd also like to add something as regards Poljak. I am not sure,
21 because this is a suburban street which stretches as far as Sasina, so it
22 is possible that there is a majority Croat population there.
23 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. We'll do a double-check.
24 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour -- Your Honours, I think it's right
25 that we just double-check those two places. I think we took that from
1 statistics, but ...
2 JUDGE AGIUS: And also what I haven't really grasped is -- or
3 understood is which town or village that he referred to before, where
4 according to the witness there were absolutely no Serb population at all,
5 because you seem to have understood like I did initially, that it was
6 Kasapnica, but obviously it isn't. So perhaps the witness could tell us
7 which village he was referring to earlier on in his evidence -- his
8 testimony where there were no Serbs.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could you please repeat
10 your question? Do you mean all the areas in the municipality of Sanski
11 Most where there were no Serbs?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, sir. There was a point during your testimony
13 where you were mentioning examples of towns and villages where there was
14 either a predominance of one ethnicity or where there was a mixed
15 community, and you also mentioned one village where, according to you,
16 there were no Serbs at all. Which was that village?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kasapnica.
18 MS. KORNER: I think we both understood that is correct, Your
19 Honour, but we will check both those ourselves.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Because this one is being marked as predominantly
21 Serb. Okay. I thank you, sir.
22 MS. KORNER:
23 Q. As we can see - and we'll come to the exact figures for Sanski
24 Most municipality later - there was a slight majority of Muslims within
25 the municipality itself; is that correct?
1 A. In the Sanski Most municipality, in -- according to the census of
2 1991, there were 47 per cent of Muslims, Serbs accounted for 41 per cent,
3 and the Croat population accounted for 8 per cent.
4 Q. All right. You can put the map aside now, thank you very much.
5 Now, I want to come to the political events, really nationwide and within
6 Sanski Most in particular. I think within Sanski Most, were you elected
7 as the first president of the commission for the multi-party elections
8 which took place in November of 1990?
9 A. Yes. That is right. I was the chairman of the municipal election
10 commission in Sanski Most, elected to conduct the first multi-party
11 elections in the municipality of Sanski Most.
12 Q. And then later on, were you also responsible for the legal
13 administration of the referendum in respect of independence for Bosnia?
14 A. Yes. The municipal election commission was duty-bound to organise
15 and conduct the referendum in conformity with statute.
16 Q. Thank you. I want to deal, though, with the results of the 1990
17 elections. Did you see the results of the elections as published in the
18 Official Gazette of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
19 A. I did. I saw them published, and these results were published on
20 the basis of the report.
21 Q. I'm going to ask you -- yes, I'm sorry, of the report what? That
22 was submitted from each municipality?
23 A. I didn't understand the question.
24 Q. All right. I think we can move on. I want to you look at,
25 however, please, the Official Gazette for the result of the elections.
1 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour has already got a copy, and if --
2 it's not been made an exhibit yet, so that could be handed out to the
3 witness in B/C/S. Your Honours, we have only -- the whole Gazette was
4 translated but we've only copied the parts that are relevant to this
5 case. Could that be made, then, Prosecutor's Exhibit 758, please?
6 I think everybody else has got it, everybody else has got it,
7 Mr. Usher. The defence have got it, unless they want another copy.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is 758?
9 MS. KORNER: 8, yes, and could the witness have the B/C/S copy,
10 please. It should be at the back.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 MS. KORNER:
13 Q. Is that a photocopy of the Official Gazette which you've had a
14 chance to look at, I think, in advance?
15 A. Yes, it is. It is the Official Gazette of the Socialist Republic
16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina which published the results.
17 Q. I want to do the first part fairly quickly. There were, in fact,
18 I think, seven constituencies.
19 A. That is correct, and we were a part of the Banja Luka
21 Q. And we can see the parties that stood for these elections, or
22 stood in these elections. The HDZ -- first of all, let's take it in
23 order, the Democratic Social Alliance of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Banja Luka;
24 the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic Union; the SDA, the Party of Democratic
25 Action; then the Alliance of the Reform Forces of Yugoslavia, I think that
1 was generally known as the Reform Party; something called the Democratic
2 Alliance; and then the SDS. The other constituencies were Bihac, Doboj,
3 Mostar and, in fact, Sarajevo and Tuzla and Zenica.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think we bothered to copy that
5 but those were the seven.
6 Q. Could we then come, please, to the page which is our page 4 of the
7 translation where we look at the deputies elected in the constituencies?
8 If you could find Banja Luka, sir -- sorry, I can't tell you what page
9 it's on. I think it's under item 3; is that correct? You have that, sir?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. The Banja Luka constituency, again, as you say, it included
12 Sanski Most. We can see just quickly, though, number 2 from Bosanska
13 Gradiska, the candidate for the HDZ was somebody called Marijan Vistica.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm referring to that because that's --
15 the witness yesterday referred to him as the gentleman -- or the day
16 before, or Friday -- as the man he met -- or the man, sorry, who was
18 Then under the list of the SDS, Kupresanin, Kasagic, and Srlic --
19 I'm sorry, that's Prijedor, Banja Luka.
20 Over the page -- I'm sorry. And I missed out -- I beg your
21 pardon, sir. For Sanski Most, we can see somebody called Rasema Mehadzic?
22 A. Mehadzic. Yes, she represented the SDA. There is also Nedeljko
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Representing the SDS.
1 Q. And then if we go to the next page, we can see again under "Banja
2 Luka," and number 11 there was Andjelko Grahovac.
3 MS. KORNER: Again, Your Honours, that's a name that's come up.
4 Q. Can we move, then, please, from that to -- we left in all the
5 constituencies. If we go through that, to next page, page 9, which shows
6 the national structure of the population of the Socialist Republic of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, according to the 1981 census.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman and Maitre de Roux, are these figures
9 in any way contested by the Defence?
10 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think so, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Maitre de Roux?
12 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... as well
14 subject, of course, to the right of Defence counsel later on to ask
15 questions -- put questions to the witness on cross-examination.
16 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, then can we go -- I think it's the names
17 that I need Your Honours to look at.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, the names, I understand --
19 MS. KORNER: Yeah, not the statistics.
20 Q. Could we go, then, please, to page 11. And, sir, could you find
21 the constituency of Banja Luka -- of the municipality of Banja Luka. It
22 is the results of the elections by constituency.
23 Have you found that? No, not quite yet, sir. It should be, I
24 think -- it should start on the page with the number at the top 00497409.
25 At least, I hope -- or the one before that.
1 MS. KORNER: I'm going to ask for assistance from --
2 Q. Yes. You've found it. I'm grateful, sir.
3 A. Yes, I've found it. Yes.
4 Q. If you look at the municipality of the constituency of Banja Luka,
5 we can see there the candidates for the SDS; that's Nikola Erceg. Then
6 the Reform party; the HDZ, Dr. Kozic; and then for the SR BH, SDP, the
7 Democratic Socialist Alliance, Dzevad Osmancevic. And we can see that in
8 fact the deputy elected was Nikola Erceg.
9 A. Yes. That's right.
10 Q. Could we then -- could we move, then, please, to the next page,
11 Bosanska Dubica.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm doing all of these so we don't have
13 to go back to them.
14 A. Dubica.
15 Q. Dubica. Do we see there that the SDS candidate, Mr. Slobodan
16 Bijelic was elected?
17 A. Under 5? Yes, he was elected.
18 Q. Okay. Could we then go to Gradiska.
19 A. Yes, we can do that.
20 Q. And there we see that a Serb named Grbic was elected?
21 And the following constituency, Bosanska Krupa. Suad Alibegovic,
22 from the SDA party, was elected.
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Then if we go to the next one, Bosanski Novi, number 10 -- or the
25 one after the next one. I'm sorry. Number 10, Bosanski Novi. A Serb was
1 elected named Gakovic.
2 Petrovac, number 11. Again a Serb, Dragan Milanovic, was
4 A. That's correct. Under number 4.
5 Q. That's right. Then could we go to the next municipality -- we've
6 missed some out. Sir, if you could go to -- I'm sorry. Just one moment.
7 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. I may have missed it. Yes.
8 Q. Yes. We've got -- the next one is Sarajevo. And I don't --
9 although I've actually left it in, I don't think we need that, that I've
11 If we look, however, at the next page, page 19. And if we come to
12 Celinac, where we -- there we can see that in fact there were only -- the
13 only people stood for election there were both Serbs, one for the SDS, one
14 for the SDP, Democratic Socialist Alliance. And as we can see,
15 Mr. Brdjanin was elected.
16 If we go to the next page, Donji Vakuf, to the bottom of that
17 page, number 27. We can see that Samir -- can you just tell us who was
18 elected, so I get the pronunciation right.
19 A. In Donji Vakuf constituency?
20 Q. Yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a problem here, Ms. Korner.
22 MS. KORNER: You don't have it?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Because obviously if -- if you hadn't made a --
24 or not a mistake, but if you hadn't mentioned the name that you
25 mentioned --
1 MS. KORNER: Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I wouldn't have noticed.
3 But actually, after page 20, at the bottom of which there is the
4 constituency of the municipality of Donji Vakuf --
5 MS. KORNER: We've missed out the next page.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- we missed -- at least, I missed the next eight
8 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour would. But you should have page
9 21. And we then go from 21 to 29.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't have page 21. I have page 29.
11 MS. KORNER: Yes. I'm sorry, it's my fault. I'll add that in.
12 When I was selecting the pages for copy, I obviously made a mistake. But
13 anyhow, perhaps the witness can just tell us.
14 Q. A gentleman by the name of Samir Sutkovic was elected in Donji
16 A. Samir Sutkovic.
17 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Samir?
19 MS. KORNER: Sutkovic.
20 Your Honour, that's "S" with the --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm making a correction. Samir
22 Sutkovic. And he was representing the SDA.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we'll provide the extra page.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Korner.
25 MS. KORNER: Okay. We should, in everybody's bundle, go to page
2 Q. And sir, can you find Kljuc? And do we see that a Serb called
3 Rajko Kalabic was elected?
4 A. I have found Kljuc constituency, Rajko Kalabic, candidate of the
5 Serb Democratic Party, and he was elected.
6 Q. And if we go to the next page, Kotor Varos, there a Serb,
7 Nedjeljko Djekanovic, was elected?
8 A. That's right, under 2, candidate of the Serb Democratic Party.
9 Q. Then can we go, sir -- if you could find Prijedor, which is on our
10 page 38 -- 39, I'm sorry. There, I think, Mevludin Sejmenovic, a Muslim
11 from Trnopolje, was elected on behalf of the SDA? That's number 74, sir,
12 on the list.
13 A. Just a moment. Could you help me, please?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 1257, if you look at the page numbers in the
15 upper, right-hand corner.
16 MS. KORNER:
17 Q. It's -- the big number is 00497414.
18 A. [In English] Thank you. [Interpretation] Prijedor constituency,
19 that's right, Stojan Vracar.
20 Q. I think you'll find, sir, that it was Mevludin Sejmenovic who was
21 elected. I agree it's very difficult to read on the photocopy.
22 A. Yes, yes, that's right. It's barely legible, Sejmenovic, that's
23 right, yes, and Marko Pavic.
24 Q. Yes, they stood, and Mr. Sejmenovic won in the second round. Then
25 could we look at the next constituency?
1 A. Sejmenovic, yes, you're right.
2 Q. And then if we look at the next constituency, Prnjavor, a Serb
3 named Vidic was elected?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And then --
6 A. Dobrivoje Vidic.
7 Q. Can we come to your constituency, please, Sanski Most, which is
8 number 80. I imagine, sir, it should be fairly close to Prnjavor.
9 A. Yes. I see it. So this is constituency 80.
10 Q. And again, I think here there was a -- what we call a runoff vote
11 with Nedjeljko Rasula from the SDS, and Hivzo Hodzic?
12 A. Yes, that's right. Hivzo Hodzic, and Nedjeljko Rasula was
13 elected, and he stood for the Serb Democratic Party.
14 Q. And then if we turn over -- sorry, if you could find, sir, we go
15 to page 44 next, where we come to Sipovo and Teslic.
16 A. Constituency 79, municipality of Sipovo.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects herself, 89.
18 Municipality of Sipovo.
19 A. Stevan Medic was elected.
20 Q. And the next constituency, Teslic?
21 A. Constituency number 90, municipality of Teslic.
22 Q. And again I think a Serb was elected?
23 A. Bosko Misic, that's right, from Teslic, was elected.
24 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, sir. In fact, I think we appear to
25 have made a mistake again on the copying, so there is one further thing I
1 want us to look at.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask -- this is my error
3 again. I've obviously made a mistake on the copying but there is some
4 further pages at the end.
5 Q. Could you find finally, sir - just to give the evidence and then
6 you can put the document away - near the end, it says, "The national
7 structure of elected deputies in the BH assembly." Does that show that in
8 the Chamber of municipalities there were 43 Muslims, 40 Serbs, 24 Croats
9 and three who described themselves as Yugoslavs? And that's on page 58 of
10 the translation.
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Yes. Thank you, sir.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we will make sure those extra two pages
14 are given to Your Honour tomorrow.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
16 MS. KORNER:
17 Q. Now, after -- just -- actually, before I deal with what happened
18 after those elections, as far as companies that were in Sanski Most were
19 concerned, were they mainly state-owned?
20 A. Yes, they were.
21 Q. By the time of the elections in 1990, how many of them were
22 privatised or semi-privatised?
23 A. By 1990, there was no privatisation. These were all state-owned
24 companies. Privatisation is only now going on, after the war.
25 Q. And for the largest companies, companies that -- a company called
1 Sip, S-I-P?
2 A. Yes, Sip Sana. That is a wood-processing company. It was the
3 largest company in Sanski Most and it was the main factor of development
4 of the municipality of Sanski Most. It had between 2.000 and 2.500
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, unless you require more information on
7 these state-owned companies from the witness, may I suggest to you to read
8 out to him the relevant paragraph from his statement and ask him to
9 confirm it?
10 MS. KORNER: Certainly.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
12 MS. KORNER: I don't think he need read the whole paragraph, Your
14 Q. Is this right? There was another large company called the 20th of
15 October, which had about 1.100 people working for it?
16 A. That's right, yes.
17 Q. Then there was a factory called Kamengrad, which had 400 people
18 working in a coal mine?
19 A. Yes, it was a coal mine, that's correct.
20 Q. And then a factory called Keramika, which was in the business of
21 producing tiles, for 300 people -- I'm sorry, which had 300 people working
22 for them?
23 A. Yes, that's right. That was Sanakeram.
24 Q. And I think there were other businesses in the construction
25 industry, agriculture, and you had a lot of people working abroad.
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Now, we've looked at the result of the elections that we saw.
3 Mr. Hodzic, was he the President of the SDA party?
4 A. Yes, he was, Mr. Hivzo Hodzic.
5 Q. Just to jump ahead, what happened to him?
6 A. He was unfortunately killed in 1992.
7 Q. And at what stage was he killed in 1992?
8 A. At the beginning in the Sanski Most municipality, he was arrested
9 in his apartment and he was detained in Betonirka. He was then supposed
10 to be transferred to Manjaca, and during that transfer, he died because of
11 the conditions under which he was transported -- transferred. This was on
12 the 7th of July, 1992. So on the way, in this convoy, during the transfer
13 towards Manjaca, he succumbed.
14 Q. Now, we saw that Mr. Rasula won the election. Was he the
15 president of the SDS party?
16 A. Yes, Mr. Rasula, he was the president of the SDS party.
17 Q. And the HDZ, was that a gentleman named Mr. Tunic?
18 A. Yes, there was. Ante Tunic.
19 Q. Can I deal with Sanski Most. We've seen that it was a mixed
20 community really between Serbs and Muslims with a small proportion of
21 Croats. Were there any ethnic tensions before the elections in 1990?
22 A. I think that all ethnicities, all nationalities in Sanski Most
23 lived harmoniously side by side, so there were no interethnic tensions.
24 Q. Was there intermarriage between the ethnicities?
25 A. Yes, there were many mixed marriages. And Sanski Most's
1 surroundings were very much mixed, with different ethnicities that you are
2 talking about.
3 Q. Now, the elections which took place. As far as the municipal
4 assembly was concerned, did the SDS get 23 seats, the SDA 22, 7 seats for
5 the SDP, 4 for the HDZ, and 4 for the Reform party?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Now, after the elections, what was the position in respect of the
8 allocation of positions?
9 A. After the elections, the parties negotiated regarding the
10 positions in accordance with the results of the elections.
11 Q. And were those negotiations successful in the allocation of the
12 various positions?
13 A. For the most -- for a number of most important positions in the
14 municipality, the parties negotiated and they took those positions. But
15 when it came to lower level positions, the positions in the judiciary, in
16 the police, where mostly -- there were mostly Serb deputies and not so
17 many Bosniaks and Croats --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Employees, not deputies.
19 A. -- this is where the negotiations came upon obstacles.
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. Just very briefly, if you can, in one sentence, what was the major
22 obstacle to the successful outcome of the negotiations?
23 A. I can mention the police administration or the public security
24 station, the police. There, there were more than 70 per cent of people
25 employed. They were Serbs. They were policemen of Serb ethnicity. In
1 the court, the judiciary, there were 70 per cent of employees who were of
2 Serb ethnicity.
3 Q. Sorry, sir -- perhaps I can -- so is the answer that effectively
4 the Serbs did not want to relinquish any positions there to other -- to
5 members of other ethnicities?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. All right. Then perhaps just before we break, I can deal with the
8 other major positions. We've already dealt with Mr. Rasula. Did he
9 become the president of the municipal assembly?
10 A. After the elections, the SDS party won by a very small number of
11 votes. Rasula took over the position of the president of the Municipal
12 Assembly of Sanski Most. The president of the executive board was the
13 candidate from the SDA, Mr. Karabik -- Mirsad Karabik [phoen].
14 Q. Was Mr. Hodzic the deputy president of the assembly?
15 A. That's right. He was the deputy president -- or rather,
16 vice-president. He was a volunteer.
17 Q. And finally, on the police. Was the chief of police a man named
18 Dragan Majkic, who was an SDS member, and the commander somebody called
19 Enver Burnic, who was a member of the SDA?
20 A. When negotiations were held regarding the division of positions in
21 the police administration, or rather, the public security station of
22 Sanski Most, there were -- there was a lot of discord. And finally, the
23 SDA yielded the position of the chief of the public security station, to
24 which the candidate Dragan Majkic was elected. And for the commander, the
25 candidate of Bosniak ethnicity was elected, Enver Burnic.
1 Q. And I think in the case of Mr. Burnic as with Mr. Hodzic, was he
2 also later killed?
3 A. Burnic. I apologise. It's Mr. Burnic.
4 Q. It's my pronunciation. But was he -- can you just deal with
5 this: Was he later killed as well in 1992?
6 A. Immediately in the beginning of the aggression on the Sanski Most
7 municipality, he was arrested among the first ones and he was detained in
8 Betonirka. And he disappeared. He has not been found to date. From the
9 premises of the police administration, he was seen by some people as being
10 driven to Manjaca -- in the direction of Manjaca and that he was
11 returned. I mean, some other camp prisoners who were driven in lorries.
12 Q. Yes.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't know what time you're going on
14 to today.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We have another ten minutes.
16 MS. KORNER: Right.
17 Q. Then I think someone else who joined -- or came to join the
18 municipal Secretariat for Defence, apart from two people who were SDS
19 members, was a man named Nedjeljko Anicic.
20 A. He was a -- an army officer, a JNA army officer. I believe that
21 he was retired. But sometime in early April or in May, he was working in
22 the Territorial Defence staff.
23 Q. And did he later become the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade,
24 which was based in Sanski Most?
25 A. I don't think he was the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade, if
1 you mean Nedeljko Anicic. I am not sure that he was.
2 Q. All right. Did he have something to do with the 6th Krajina
3 Brigade? Let's put it that way.
4 A. He did. In the preparation -- I believe that he was the main
5 person in the staff of the 6th Krajina Brigade and that he was also in the
6 Crisis Staff. I think he was involved in making plans -- in the planning,
7 that is, together with the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade. He was
8 the most important military person in the command staff of the 6th Krajina
10 Q. I'm sorry, the commander was the most important person, do you
12 A. The commander is the most important person, but Anicic,
13 Mr. Nedjeljko Anicic, was in the staff. He was the Chief of Staff of the
14 Serbian defence, of the Serb defence.
15 Q. All right. And just let's deal with that for the moment. During
16 the events that we are going to deal with in 1992, who was the commander
17 of the 6th Krajina Brigade?
18 A. The commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade, when the aggression
19 started on the municipality of Sanski Most in 1992, was Lieutenant Colonel
20 or Colonel of the former JNA, Branko Basara.
21 Q. Now, I want to move, then, to the events after the war in Croatia
22 started. Once the war in Croatia started in June of 1991, was the 6th
23 Krajina Brigade -- or rather, was mobilisation ordered?
24 A. After the 6th Krajina Brigade was returned to Sanski Most from the
25 front in Croatia, from the Republic of Croatia, mobilisation followed in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Sanski Most.
2 Q. Yes, all right. I think we may be -- it's my fault. The war
3 started in June of 1991. Did the 6th Krajina Brigade go straight to
4 Croatia before mobilisation was ordered?
5 A. I cannot give you a precise answer. I cannot recall. I cannot
6 remember the dates. But I know, and I do remember, that the 6th Krajina
7 Brigade, the Sanska Brigade, as part of the JNA, took part on the front in
8 the Republic of Croatia during the war. I know this because many
9 reservists of the 6th Krajina Brigade were released from having to do
10 their work, their place of employment, because they were mobilised, and
11 they went to the front.
12 Q. All right. I'm sorry, I interrupted. Was there something else
13 you wanted to say?
14 A. While they were at the front, they were receiving a salary at
15 their place of employment in the company, and I also know that the members
16 of the 6th Krajina Brigade and the reservists who were Bosniak or Croat,
17 they did not want to go to the front in Croatia, except for some
18 exceptions. They deserted. When there were shifts of parts of the 6th
19 Krajina Brigade returned to Sanski Most, very often there was a
20 disturbance of security among the population, and this created tensions in
21 a certain way among the population of Sanski Most because people came from
22 the front with weapons that they then carried through the town.
23 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, that may be a convenient
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner, and I thank you, Judge. We
1 will continue tomorrow.
2 There is one very small matter that I wanted to raise. You filed
3 a motion to redact part of the transcript relating to Witness BT12 because
4 there was a moment when we should have been in private session and we
6 MS. KORNER: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you had time, Mr. Ackerman and Maitre de Roux,
8 to go through that motion?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. I have no objection, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And Maitre de Roux?
11 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] No objection, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are just handing now a verbal decision. Your
13 motion is granted.
14 MS. KORNER: I'm grateful to Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 5.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday
18 the 24th day of April, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.