Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4954

1 Thursday, 25 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could we have the case called,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear

10 me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

12 Honour. I can hear you and understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, you may sit down.

14 General Talic, good afternoon to you, can you hear me in a

15 language that you can understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17 I can hear you in a language I understand.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

19 Appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner, Andrew Cayley, assisted

21 by case manager Denise Gustin. Good afternoon Your Honours.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

23 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman

25 with Marela Jevtovic on behalf of Mr. Brdjanin.

Page 4955

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

2 Appearances for General Talic.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr.

4 President, Your Honours. I am Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic. I represent

5 General Talic together with Fabien Masson.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Could I have an explanation for the absence from the

7 courtroom of Maitre de Roux.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I presented his

9 excuses yesterday.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That was for yesterday. And for today?

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I know, the

12 presence is requested of either the lead counsel or co-counsel, not of

13 both counsel at the same time.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You are wrong, Madam Fauveau. You should consult

15 with the office that the presence of both of you is required, and that

16 only occasionally and for really good reasons should either of you not be

17 excused from being present.

18 General Talic, were you informed that Maitre de Roux would not be

19 present today?

20 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I was informed, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

23 Yes, Ms. Korner.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour is no doubt aware of the -- or Your

25 Honours are no doubt aware of the events that transpired this morning

Page 4956

1 during the conference held under Rule 65 ter with your senior legal

2 officer. And the motion which was filed this morning jointly on behalf of

3 both accused.

4 Your Honour, we received literally a minute before I came into

5 court an order regarding the trial scheduling.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We haven't even seen it, actually. We know

7 that it has been handed and that it was handed to you, and it was in the

8 hands of the senior legal officer. But I haven't seen it.

9 Yes, Ms. Korner.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are a number really of different

11 matters which arise. The first is, it is my view that the filing of this

12 motion arises as a result of not just one but a number of

13 misunderstandings, really arising from the --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, may I stop you for the time being,

15 because you are preempting something that we had in mind of clarifying,

16 and that is that before the commencement of this sitting -- today's

17 sitting, apart from the decision by Judge Schomburg that I have just read,

18 namely that on a provisional basis, it is being decided that the

19 proceedings may go on until further order, and the requirement of the

20 parties to be present today at 2.15. We had agreed amongst the -- amongst

21 us to make a statement in open court today because we feel -- we consider

22 this to be on importance. And the statement is as follows: -- It's a

23 joint statement, Ms. Korner.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just interrupt before Your

25 Honour -- and I think Mr. Ackerman is going to say the same thing. I

Page 4957

1 think one of the problems is going to be that -- I'm not sure if either

2 one or both accused have not been fully been put in the picture. And I

3 think before Your Honours perhaps make a statement, an opportunity ought

4 to be given. I believe it applies mainly to Mr. Brdjanin, but maybe also

5 to General Talic. And I see Mr. Ackerman is on his feet.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to request 20 minutes to confer with my

7 client, Your Honour, before you make a statement.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: 20 minutes break.

9 --- Break taken at 2.23 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 2.47 p.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you want to say anything, either Ms. Korner

12 or Mr. Ackerman or whoever?

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think perhaps it -- if Your Honours

14 have prepared a statement to make, if Your Honours were to make it and

15 then thereafter we see where we go from here.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we have -- the three Judges have met on

17 the matter arising out of the filing of the motion this morning, and we

18 have agreed to make the following joint declaration to be entered into the

19 records of this case.

20 The three Judges composing this Trial Chamber in view of the joint

21 motion of the accused filed earlier today seeking to disqualify the Trial

22 Chamber hearing this case wish to make the following formal statement.

23 The motion appears to be mainly based on the statement contained in the

24 document given to the parties entitled "List of potentially agreed facts,"

25 to which the motion refers as being a list which the Chamber itself has

Page 4958

1 drafted. The three Judges wish to state that the motion is obviously

2 based on a misconception, in that none of us, the three Judges in this

3 Trial, had anything to do with the compilation, let alone the drafting of

4 the list of possible agreed facts for consideration. In fact, none of us,

5 the three Judges, had even seen the said list before the present motion

6 was filed.

7 Having made this formal statement, the Trial Chamber wishes to

8 state that it expects the parties to accept the assurance given by us, the

9 three Judges composing it, namely -- I repeat that we had nothing to do

10 with the compilation and the drafting of the so-called list of potentially

11 agreed facts they have objections to.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say straight away this is

13 something that I had certainly gathered and expressed shortly when the

14 matter was raised in the conference held this morning.

15 Your Honours, it's perfectly clear, from the way it was drafted,

16 because it contained an obvious error of fact in the first statement, in

17 that it suggested that a letter had been sent ex parte to the Prosecution

18 on the 28th of February, when in fact -- and I have the document here, and

19 I believe it's now accepted by Mr. Ackerman, it was a letter sent to all

20 parties in respect of, it was hoped, agreements which could be reached.

21 Your Honours -- Your Honours, one can see it's addressed to myself

22 and Mr. Cayley and Ms. Maglov and Mr. Ackerman and Mr. De Roux and

23 Madame Fauveau, and it effectively sets out what I think anyone can see is

24 the intention of the Trial Chamber to try and move matters along in the

25 most efficient way that one can.

Page 4959

1 Unfortunately, what appears to have happened is this, that whoever

2 drafted this particular list of potentially agreed facts, A, said that the

3 Chamber had drafted it, which led, I believe, Defence counsel to believe

4 that Your Honours had drafted it; and secondly, contained an attempt to

5 reach agreement on a fact that clearly was never going to be agreed but

6 from the beginning of this case has been clearly the subject of

7 contention, namely that General Talic was a member of the ARK Crisis

8 Staff.

9 Your Honour, that's what I say, this has been arisen from a series

10 of misunderstandings. And because I know that neither accused comes from

11 a system where this type of document is produced during the course of a

12 trial, I would like to try and explain, even though I know that Your

13 Honours know it, so that the accused hear what we've said. And it's

14 something that we've mentioned before in court.

15 This case concerns the alleged responsibility of a general and a

16 senior politician for events through what the Prosecution allege is their

17 authority at the time. It is not suggested, save for odd meetings and

18 matters that we, for instance, dealt with yesterday, when General Talic

19 went to Sanski Most on the 20th of April, that either accused took part in

20 actual killings or beatings or any of the sorts. The Prosecution case is

21 that they were ultimately criminally liable -- that's the allegation we

22 make because of their position.

23 The -- both accused, as Mr. Brdjanin made clear the other day,

24 have been waiting through no fault of theirs or anyone's really, because

25 of court scheduling, a long time for their trial. In order to make that

Page 4960

1 trial efficient and for the accused to be able to best ask Your Honours to

2 concentrate on what is relevant, as happens in trials conducted in such a

3 system all over the world, is that facts which are not disputed as opposed

4 to agreed, because that the accused know they happened, but simply that

5 because the accused were not present, they cannot know one way or another

6 whether such events took place, and it is perhaps as we discussed in the

7 original conference with Mr. Von Hebel and Defence counsel at which the

8 accused were not present, there was a discussion about that very matter.

9 And Your Honours, I'm sorry I haven't got copies, but I have

10 brought here with me the record that was made -- the official transcript

11 of that conference when this matter was discussed. And it was raised in

12 connection with the length of trial and the number of witnesses that would

13 be called, and it was raised by me that where witnesses were not going to

14 name either of the accused if the Defence could indicate what parts will

15 be in dispute and what will not be in dispute.

16 There was then -- Mr. Von Hebel at the end of my request that we

17 told what was not going to be disputed said this: "Are there any comments

18 from either Defence counsel?" And Mr. De Roux said: "Yes. I think that

19 I personally can't agree because the Prosecution want to establish a

20 number of facts. That's the Prosecution." It's quite difficult to follow

21 what he said. But anyhow, he said: "I think there are a number of facts

22 that of course we can discuss." Mr. Ackerman was asked for his opinion

23 and pointed out that with two defendants, it was quite difficult to reach

24 agreement. He said: "One defendant may be willing to agree to a whole

25 list of facts that happened. And another defendant may want to agree to a

Page 4961

1 third of them.." Then he said this: "I think as time goes by, some of

2 these things will be taken care of." And then Mr. Von Hebel went on and

3 explained that there might be -- before we got into the next municipality,

4 where there are certain facts which probably do not implicate the accused

5 themselves, if we can agree amongst the parties to those fact, I would

6 again invite the Prosecution in this respect for the municipality to try

7 and elaborate a list maybe based on one which was submitted at sometime

8 ago."

9 And then Mr. De Roux said this: "There were a number of facts of

10 which the Defence has absolutely no knowledge, so we cannot admit or

11 accept the list of facts of which we have absolutely no knowledge." And

12 then we had this discussion about producing a list, with facts that the

13 Defence cannot dispute.

14 The matter rested there but has been raised on a number of

15 occasions and in particular when the -- Your Honours raised it, in fact,

16 at the next hearing on the 18th of February. Your Honour Judge Agius

17 said: "Agreed facts --" can I say this is the bottom -- this is the

18 transcript page 1883. And you talked about the possibility -- possibly

19 also with the help of our senior legal officer to try at least identify

20 various facts on which there should be no reason for you to disagree

21 about." And both accused were present to hear that being said. And you

22 gave various examples.

23 And Mr. Ackerman, in response, said this: -- There had been a

24 discussion about it, and it was difficult because of the representation of

25 General Talic at that stage undergoing some kind of flux. And he said

Page 4962

1 that at the bottom of page 1887: "It will be of absolutely no value at

2 this point or perhaps any time in the future for us to have some kind of a

3 meeting with the Prosecutor, because we know what the facts are that are

4 alleged by the Prosecutor, and we are perfectly capable, the two Defence

5 teams I hope, of sitting down and saying we should go along with some of

6 these. Now, one thing they might ask the Chamber to consider which might

7 make this an easier process, rather than for us to say to the Trial

8 Chamber, "We admit this certain set of facts," is if we could be permitted

9 to say to the Trial Chamber that we do not contest this particular set of

10 facts."

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel read more slowly, please.

12 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... all the facts

13 with regard to what happened at the camp at Omarska, and another thing to

14 say, we simply do not contest them. This is an issue that I don't know

15 has ever been before a Trial Chamber in this Tribunal. And I stress the

16 following words so that the two accused hear this:

17 It is fairly common from where I come from. You can even enter a

18 plea of nolo contendere, which means you are not making any kind of

19 admission and where it might be very difficult to make an --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down, Ms. Korner, because you're causing

21 problems for the interpreters.

22 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. That's the last thing I want to do. I

23 haven't got my headphones on. It's always more difficult when you're

24 reading from a document.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And I don't have mine on either.

Page 4963

1 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I'll go back, because I do think

2 this is important that the accused hear this.

3 "It is one thing to say we admit all the facts alleged with

4 regard to what happened in the camp at Omarska and another thing to say we

5 simply do not contest them. That is an issue that I do not -- that I

6 don't know has ever been before a Trial Chamber in this Tribunal. It's

7 fairly common where I come from. You can even enter a plea of nolo

8 contendere, which means you're not making any kind of admission and

9 where it might be very difficult to make an admission of facts, it's quite

10 easy to do, to simply say, "I do not contest these facts for the purposes

11 of this trial." And it seems to me that accomplishes the same thing. It

12 takes the Prosecutor off the hook in terms of having to prove them. So

13 I'd like you to consider whether you would accept that kind of an

14 agreement, representation."

15 Your response, Judge Agius, was to say that you would discuss with

16 your co-Judges, and then said: "Certainly I can assure you of something,

17 that this Trial Chamber is very clear about or hasn't got any doubts

18 about, that is the fact that you may be either requested, called upon, or

19 voluntarily come forward and say, "We do not contest these facts," which

20 will not -- I'm sorry. And say, "We do not contest these facts." And

21 then you said this: "Which will not at any time then or afterwards be

22 taken to mean, first, that your clients knew that those events were taking

23 place or that they personally accept the fact that they are not being

24 contested to be in any way used against them or to be prejudicial to

25 them." And you repeated it. You gave an example with Omarska and said:

Page 4964

1 "We do not -- the words 'we do not contest that that happened' doesn't

2 mean to say that they are agreeing, that they knew about those events at

3 the time that they were happening or that they had some or some sort of

4 control over the situation." And you further repeated it again later.

5 Your Honour, the matter came up again when the witness who was

6 called quite recently on the 11th of April, BT12, and Mr. Ackerman in

7 terms stood up, as Madam Fauveau had said by letter, that there was no

8 contest as to the killing that had taken place.

9 Your Honour, this is not a process by which either accused through

10 their counsel agreeing not to contest facts in any way admits guilt, and

11 Your Honours have made that absolutely clear that you would not in any way

12 treat it as such. It is not helping the Prosecution. The Prosecution is

13 perfectly willing to go on calling witnesses for as long as it takes to

14 prove the matters alleged in the indictment in relation to the crimes that

15 we say obviously were committed by people directly other than these two

16 accused. It is an attempt by the Trial Chamber and by responsible counsel

17 to make sure that the evidence that is heard live is specifically related

18 to matters that are specifically in issue or specifically relate to the

19 culpability of the two accused.

20 Mr. Von Hebel in the last conference with him, made it clear one

21 of the reasons why the Trial Chamber is so concerned is that there are

22 other people waiting in the Detention Unit for trial who have been waiting

23 almost as long, some of them, as Mr. Brdjanin. And unless there can be

24 some agreement reached, this trial will go on, as I said to Your Honours

25 when you asked me yesterday, how long in the event that we were dropping

Page 4965

1 some matters this would take. And unless realistically, unless some sort

2 of agreement can be reached, it will take -- it will clearly take the

3 best part of two years as it is, and it will take longer. And I'm not

4 sure how conducive that is to either accused to have to sit through a

5 trial for two years.

6 Your Honour, it seems to me if the reflection is taken by the

7 accused because really this is their decision. Counsel can advise them

8 and say, "This is what we advise you to do," but it's their decision

9 because they're the people who this effects -- that what happened with

10 this list of potentially agree facts was that somebody didn't really apply

11 their mind properly to what could be agreed, that it was an attempt on

12 behalf of Your Honours to manage this trial properly, and that in no sense

13 does it reflect any decision or even the beginnings of a decision taken by

14 Your Honours on the facts. And I would merely ask, that before we take

15 the further steps that such a motion will require, reflection is given to

16 whether this motion should be pursued.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't plan to make a long speech or

19 a large reply to what Ms. Korner had just said, because I think the moment

20 does not permit that. I will say this: I fully accept Your Honours'

21 statement that none of you were aware of this document. The problem is

22 that the document says the Chamber has drafted such a list. Now, I can

23 only understand that to be Your Honours, or that it was drafted with the

24 specific understanding and direction of Your Honours. I would ask that

25 you apply to yourselves, Your Honours, the same standards you apply to the

Page 4966

1 detainee -- to the accused in this case, that is, if you didn't know about

2 it, you should have. And I'm satisfied that had you known about it, it

3 wouldn't have come out and been released and confronted me with the need

4 to try to explain it to my client.

5 I could spend the next year trying to explain this to

6 Mr. Brdjanin. And this is not -- that this is not some indication by Your

7 Honours that you believe these facts are so well established that we

8 shouldn't further contest them. I don't know how I can ever get him to

9 understand that.

10 A statement that Radoslav Brdjanin was president of the ARK Crisis

11 Staff from 5 May 1992 onwards is totally unacceptable. What does onwards

12 mean? How long is that? Is that up until today? We all know that the

13 Crisis Staff functioned for a very short period of time.

14 And it's -- it is a shocking document. That's all I can say to

15 you. I didn't sleep last night because of this, at all, and I couldn't

16 sleep last night because of this at all. And this motion was not filed

17 lightly. This was a very, very, very difficult position for me to get

18 myself to, and I didn't do it precipitously or lightly. I sought the

19 advice of many, many people whom I trust a great deal. And I can tell

20 Your Honours that each person to whom I consulted with regard to this

21 matter, without any prompting by me, looked at this document and said,

22 "That is outrageous. That is a shocking outrage." And I still believe

23 it is, and I believe it would not be here if Your Honours had any sense of

24 what was happening behind the scenes. It's sad that this has happened. I

25 don't -- I didn't want this to happen. I didn't ask for this to happen.

Page 4967

1 The business of whether or not admissions are made with regard to facts,

2 it seems to me, is a business between the Prosecution and the Defence.

3 Judges, it seems to me, are to sit as impartial arbiters of the facts

4 that they hear.

5 I think I probably should say no more about it, but that's --

6 that's how I feel as I stand before you at this moment.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Any further statements?

8 Madame Fauveau?

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your

10 Honours, I fully accept your statement, but I also fully associate myself

11 with the statement made by Mr. Ackerman. I will be very brief. I also

12 accept what Ms. Korner has said. It is quite permissible for the

13 Prosecutor to ask us to admit certain facts. It is quite normal for us to

14 admit certain facts. It is also true that the admission of certain facts

15 does not signify the culpability of our clients, above all mine.

16 Unfortunately in this document, a sentence shocked me deeply, which we are

17 discussing for almost three years, that is, my client's participation in

18 the Crisis Staff. This is not a precise fact. It is not a distantly

19 removed fact. It affects the very core of General Talic's position. I

20 don't know where this document comes from, but I do believe that it

21 doesn't come from you. But according to this document, it is the Chamber

22 that drafted it.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I just want to add something else, in

24 the light of it. It seems to me that neither Mr. Ackerman nor

25 Madam Fauveau are really listening to what has been said. As I say, this

Page 4968

1 is the accused's decision in the end. Counsel can advise, but they have

2 the right to make the decision. And I would earnestly ask them to

3 consider this position.

4 The other thing that we should make absolutely clear is however

5 inadequately these were drafted -- and I'm sorry to say it is inadequate

6 -- the simple answer would have been for either Defence counsel

7 effectively to say, perhaps more parliamentary language, but, "Don't be

8 ridiculous. Of course we're not going to agree to facts like General

9 Talic was a member of the Crisis Staff or that Brdjanin was president of

10 the ARK Crisis Staff from the 5th of May, 1992 onwards."

11 Evidentially it's already known. We've already led evidence

12 to some extent of the documents of the winding up. And I do feel that

13 using the sort of hyperbole about not being able to sleep and shocking

14 isn't very helpful.

15 Your Honour, having said that --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I have 25 years experience on the

17 Bench. So nothing impresses me much.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the -- the real question is I don't know

19 from the sound of it whether either Defence counsel proposes to discuss

20 the matter again with their clients. If they don't, well, then we have to

21 decide where we --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... to Defence

23 counsel. It's certainly not going to be discussed with us.

24 MS. KORNER: No.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's why we've said what we needed to say, and

Page 4969

1 that's it.

2 However, I do want to make one thing clear, that one thing I would

3 take objection to definitely, is if you receive a document for discussion,

4 whatever meeting it would be, informal like the one which was planned for

5 this morning, purporting to present to you matters for discussion, being

6 presented by our legal staff. Our legal staff, vis-a-vis you, have no

7 standing. I would object if our legal staff were to present you with a

8 document saying, "This is what in our opinion ought to be discussed." So

9 I see nothing strange at all if anyone did put in the document itself "the

10 Chamber." The thing is that -- in reality, in such circumstances,

11 seeing -- reading the Chamber has drafted this, one would stop before

12 jumping where one should be very careful. One would stop and confirm

13 first whether the Chamber itself had drafted this, because if that would

14 have been the case, I would have discussed nothing further in that

15 meeting, come straight here, and put the question to the Chamber. "Did

16 you draft this? Are you seriously expecting us to agree to this?" That's

17 how I would have acted. But anyway, things are what they are, and I

18 suppose we don't need to discuss the matter any further.

19 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, the difficulty though is where we

20 go from here.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The difficulty is going -- it's going to be decided

22 by whoever is by the rules entrusted with the task of deciding such a

23 motion. I mean, we have got nothing to do with it.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I note Judge Schomburg's order

25 that the trial should continue.

Page 4970

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And God forbid that he hadn't ordered such a thing,

2 because we could have the situation arising every -- every week.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: With the expectation that we stop the proceedings in

5 the meantime.

6 MS. KORNER: Then Your Honours, may I raise then -- the only other

7 thing, then, if Your Honours propose to continue with the evidence this

8 afternoon is this -- and I need to make it clear in open court. The

9 motion request a hearing -- and can I just check the rule that's referred

10 to -- yes -- that the hearing tomorrow at 9.30 be in the Judge's private

11 room.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's in Judge Schomburg's room.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes. Under I -- now there are two thing -- I'm

14 sorry. Rule 65 ter(I). That rule refers to the Pre-Trial Judge

15 performing functions in his room.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But you see that with Judge Schomburg.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes. But I need to make it clear to Your Honours now

18 so that it can be passed to Judge Schomburg -- or rather, so that we can

19 all reach agreement at least on this, that it is our joint opinion, all

20 counsel, that if there is to be any hearing on this matter, it's an open,

21 public motion. It must be done in open proceedings with full recording

22 taking place. I just need to make --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I will pass on the motion to Judge Schomburg. With

24 the understanding, that this is all I will tell him because otherwise I

25 cannot discuss obviously -- I am precluded from discussing any -- anything

Page 4971

1 with him on the matter, except that I expect to be consulted by the rule,

2 which I am sure that will be the case.

3 MS. KORNER: Well, then, Your Honour, if there's nothing else,

4 I'll ask for Mr. --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And when is -- Mr. Von Hebel, Judge Schomburg is

6 sitting this afternoon. And what time is he expected to have a break?

7 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, I'll pass on the message to Judge Schomburg.

9 In the meantime, I think we can start.

10 One other thing: We will need to stop at 6.00 today, rather than

11 6.30, because I've got something urgent to attend to.

12 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, the break

13 will be when?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I will be regulated by Madam Registrar on

15 that.

16 Will you please organise this and tell me when we should be taking

17 the break. However, if Judge Schomburg takes a break, say, in 15 minutes'

18 time, I would prefer rather to have a short break then.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Do you want to break now?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what time Judge Schomburg is having his

21 break.

22 MS. KORNER: I think -- Your Honour, I think he's rising in --

23 they're doing the hour and a half. So I think around quarter to 4.00 he

24 has a break.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we can start and then break in 15 minutes'

Page 4972

1 time.

2 Incidentally, Madam Registrar, please, we are giving instructions

3 directing that the first part of the transcript in which our statement --

4 joint statement is recorded be copied and given to Judge Schomburg,

5 please, as Presiding Judge of Trial Chamber II. Thank you.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Judge, and welcome back to the

8 Tribunal. My apologies to you for keeping you waiting for so long, but

9 this is a case which I sincerely wish you'll never have the like of. And

10 we had a legal problem to attend to, and that has kept us occupied this

11 last hour or so. So my apologies once more. I'm sure that as a judge you

12 will understand each case has got its own problems.

13 Could I ask you to repeat the solemn declaration once more,

14 please. Thank you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

20 Ms. Korner.

21 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

22 Q. Judge, yesterday when we adjourned, you had just dealt with the

23 fact that you had been arrested and were taken to the SUP and were beaten

24 outside that.

25 Now, at the police station, where were you taken?

Page 4973

1 A. At the public security station Sanski Most, I was led through the

2 main entrance into the hallway. I stayed there briefly. I was searched

3 in the hallway. They took off my shoelaces and my belt from my trousers,

4 and then they led me along the corridor to the back door where there are

5 garages and prison cells. They took me to a prison -- a cell in the

6 building within the compound behind the public security station, or the

7 police station.

8 Q. Now, when you were put into the cell, how many people were there

9 already?

10 A. They put me in cell number one. There were four men there already

11 when I arrived.

12 Q. And thereafter, did four more arrive who were placed into the same

13 cell?

14 A. Yes. There were nine of us in all in that cell.

15 Q. Roughly, how big was that cell?

16 A. The cell was 2 metres wide and about 2 and a half metres long.

17 Q. Were you able to lie down at all, the nine of you?

18 A. We were not able to lie down. We had to be in a group and in a

19 sitting position.

20 Q. Was there a window?

21 A. The cell was almost armoured, one can say. There was a small

22 window, which wasn't open, and which was covered with steel sheeting. So

23 this sheet of tin fully covered the window. And on that sheet -- steel

24 sheet, there was several holes made with nails. The door was metal, made

25 of metal, so there was no air at all.

Page 4974

1 Q. What was the weather like in May of 1992?

2 A. When I was in prison, it was rainy and temperatures changed during

3 the day. There would be periods of sunshine, but it was heavy kind of

4 weather.

5 Q. As a result of the lack of air and the number of people in the

6 room, what happened to the cell itself, the walls?

7 A. The walls had turned dark from the humidity. There was drops of

8 water on the walls, and our bodies were wet with perspiration, and the

9 walls had gone almost black. And when I was put into that cell, they were

10 yellowish in colour. And later on, they turned almost black. And down

11 the steel sheet that was on the window, this small window, there was also

12 sheeting on the radiator, and it was wet. There was water dripping from

13 the body heat that was evaporating. For hours I would stand next to this

14 sheet of steel, next to this little hole, so as to be able to breathe.

15 Otherwise, there was no way we could manage. The same applied to the

16 other people who were detained in that cell.

17 Q. Now, were you taken from the cell to be interrogated on about

18 three or four occasions? Perhaps you could just answer "yes" or "no."

19 A. Yes, we were taken for interrogation.

20 Q. And the people who interrogated you, did you know them?

21 A. Most of them, yes.

22 Q. And from where did they come? In other words, were they police,

23 military, ordinary members of the public?

24 A. I knew the interrogators, all of them who were there. They were

25 members of the crime department of the police. Then there were members of

Page 4975

1 the reserve force of the state security service attached to the army.

2 Then from -- people from the state security of Prijedor.

3 Q. What were they interrogating you about?

4 A. They had questions prepared in advance which we had to answer.

5 Q. Were you interrogated on your own or together with other people,

6 other prisoners?

7 A. I was taken from the cell alone for interrogation. But usually

8 there would be two inspectors, and they took turns. And that is how they

9 led the others too, individually.

10 Q. You say they had a prepared questionnaire. Can you just summarise

11 what they were asking you about.

12 A. They interrogated me two or three times in the police station, and

13 they questioned me about the referendum. For instance, then why I had

14 organised the referendum, why I had been against the Yugoslav People's

15 Army, why I had attended meetings, certain meetings of the SDA party.

16 They asked me about weapons. Actually, I was shocked by these questions

17 because I had been accused in advance of having weapons, and actually I

18 had no weapons except for an official pistol. And they asked me about

19 automatic rifles, 20 or 30 of them. I don't remember any more. They

20 accused me of having found weapons in my house, that they had found a

21 light machine-gun, two Schmeissers, about three and a half thousand

22 bullets for the machine-gun, that they had found trenches dug around my

23 house, which was not true. Actually, I realised that I was condemned to

24 death in advance. Simply, I had nothing to say. And the inspector who

25 was interrogating me, his name was Branko Sobot, somebody I had worked

Page 4976

1 with had the work, because he was in the crime department. And he went

2 with me to carry out investigations. We cooperated at work. And I said

3 to him, "But Branko, you know me, surely." Those were questions that I

4 can remember. Of course there were others as well.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. Beg your pardon. They also asked me about my family, why I had

7 sent my wife and children to Germany. Then they asked for their address

8 in Germany. Then they asked me about many of my neighbours, judges who

9 had left, why I had opposed certain decisions of the Crisis Staff. Then

10 they told me that I had wanted to organise Muslim police, a crime service

11 that I had wanted to organise, why I had criticised the chief of police.

12 They accused me of failing to really disclose terrorist activities by the

13 chief of police and things like that.

14 Q. All right. First of all, I can deal with the various things they

15 were putting to you. Did you have the machine-guns, the bullets, all

16 those things they were saying had been found? Were they -- did you have

17 possession of them in your house? If you just answer "yes" or "no."

18 A. I had nothing.

19 Q. You say that they were accusing you of wanting to organise Muslim

20 police. Had you tried to organise a separate Muslim police force?

21 A. I didn't ever, because I had no competence in that area. I

22 engaged in my profession. I worked in the court as a professional, and

23 that's all.

24 Q. At any time were you ever charged with any offences in relation to

25 these questions that they were asking you?

Page 4977

1 A. While I was in the prison there, in the public security station, I

2 expected an indictment. However, I received nothing, nothing in writing,

3 even though the president of the Crisis Staff, Nedeljko Rasula on the

4 second day after I was taken into custody, together with two other members

5 of the Crisis Staff, came to the prison -- to the cell and told us that

6 they -- we would be put on trial and that we would pay with our lives. If

7 in the process of disarmament any Serb gets killed.

8 Q. So he was saying that if -- during the disarming process any Serb

9 gets killed, you would pay with your -- you would be put on trial and pay

10 with your lives.

11 A. He said that we would be tried in any event. And he threatened us

12 that we would have to pay with our lives, that -- or rather, that for

13 every Serb killed, 100 Muslims would be killed, and that we were the ones

14 who were in -- who were in prison that were responsible for everything.

15 And on that day, there were 16 of us in two cells, because in the other

16 cell was where the others were.

17 Q. All right. Were you ever put on trial?

18 A. There was no trial.

19 Q. All right. You said that Rasula came with two other members of

20 the Crisis Staff. Do you remember their names?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And they were? Who were they?

23 A. One was a professor, Nemanja Tripkovic. And the other was

24 designated as the command of the prison. Earlier on he had been a police

25 commander, and he had retired. And then he was reactivated, and his name

Page 4978

1 was Milutin Papric. He was in uniform -- in a blue uniform with rank.

2 Q. Can I just go back to the first one. What did you say his surname

3 was? Nemanja ...?

4 A. Tripkovic.

5 Q. During the course of these interrogations, was any kind of

6 violence used against you?

7 A. Not only against me, but against all of us, when we were taken out

8 individually one by one.

9 Q. Can you just deal with what happened to you. I'm simply -- at

10 this stage during the questioning that you talked about, what happened to

11 you?

12 A. On one occasion, when they were taking me out, the interrogators

13 left the room I was in. Then a young man came in, whom I didn't know, and

14 he beat me on the soles of my feet with a pole on my soles. Then there

15 were insults held and then he left, and then the interrogators came back.

16 I think on one other occasion or maybe on two occasions I was beaten

17 outside in the compound between the building and the prison. Once I was

18 going to fetch water to carry it into the cell, and the water was in a

19 tank next to the building some 30 or 50 metres from the prison. And there

20 I was also hit with a wooden stick, a baseball bat in the rib area.

21 Q. And finally just before we have the break, did the person who hit

22 you with the baseball bat, what was he? What was his job?

23 A. This man I think was cleaning the Mahala, because he wore black

24 gloves with the fingers cut off. He wore glasses, and he was in uniform.

25 I think his name is Stupar.

Page 4979

1 Q. Okay. I'm sorry to stop you, but was that -- was he a policeman

2 or a military -- an ordinary policeman, military police, or ordinary

3 military?

4 A. He was from the military. I don't know whether he was a

5 military policeman.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that then -- I understand -- we've had

7 a message to say Judge Schomburg has risen.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. We'll break for half an hour,

9 resuming at 4.15 and --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll break for half an hour, and we'll resume

12 at 4.15. Then we'll go straight until 6.00. Thank you.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'd like to report two things to Your

17 Honours. It appears that the problem that I raised yesterday with regard

18 to Witness 207 has been solved. And --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness 207?

20 MS. KORNER: The diary.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: The diary.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we've solved that. The Prosecution has

24 very kindly supplied us with a list of the parts that were not to be sent

25 for translation. I think that's solved it.

Page 4980

1 The second thing, in consultation with Madam Fauveau, we are -- we

2 will advise Judge Schomburg and we're advising this Chamber now that we

3 are withdrawing that portion of our motion that objects to this Trial

4 Chamber sitting during the pendency of the motion. And as far as we're

5 concerned, we can continue to sit through all the scheduled days.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. In the meantime, I would

7 like you to know that as per your suggestion, I did in the presence of --

8 or together with the other two Judges and in the presence of the senior

9 legal officer pass on the message to Judge Schomburg, the message that you

10 asked me to pass on. And I suppose I am not a bearer of any response in

11 the sense not officially, but I suppose if you don't hear anything, you're

12 supposed to take the decision as it stands for the time being.

13 Anyway, that's -- but I'm not a bearer of any response or answer

14 or reply or information to you.

15 So again, Judge --

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I -- just before we go back to the

17 Judge's evidence, I just want to be absolutely clear that in our joint

18 view, it's inappropriate and it's not in accordance with the rules. I

19 think that should the --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But I suppose, Ms. Korner, you're -- I am not

21 exactly the right person to be addressed on the subject.

22 MS. KORNER: No.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you ought to turn up as instructed, unless

24 there is a counter-order, and explain your position at the appropriate

25 moment to the appropriate person.

Page 4981

1 MS. KORNER: Yes. The only reason I'm continuing on this is

2 because effectively, unless a Court is arranged for tomorrow morning,

3 there will be -- and Judge Schomburg accepts that this matter has to be

4 raised in open court because it's an open motion and dealt with in open

5 court, there will not be a court tomorrow morning.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But since there is the withdrawal now of the

7 objection for the proceedings to continue, that's not going to change

8 much, is it?

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it would be preferable, I think, if this

10 matter were to be dealt with as soon as possible.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: As expeditiously as possible. I mean, I would

12 have -- I better not say anything. I mean, I --

13 MS. KORNER: All right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it's not in my hands, in any case.

15 MS. KORNER: No.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think it is being dealt with the utmost

17 urgency and most attention.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes. But not in this way.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's not up to me.

20 MS. KORNER: I know. That, Your Honour, I'm only saying it. I

21 know that Your Honours effectively the legal staff that Your Honours have

22 meet and discuss these matters. The registry hear what is I'm saying, and

23 I just want to make that clear. That's it.


25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in respect of the diary, I think Your

Page 4982

1 Honour should know that we did in the interests of efficiency and harmony

2 go through the diary again. It was done in fact, I should add, by

3 Ms. Gustin in her spare time while Mr. Ackerman was unable to sleep at

4 night, Ms. Gustin was unable to sleep because she was working at night.

5 So I think I ought to make that clear.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You give her a day off.

7 MS. KORNER: She had that the other day, when Ms. Sutherland was

8 here.

9 And finally, Your Honour, just one other matter. I meant to

10 mention it because it's perhaps important given the concern that these

11 proceedings are heard in open forum. Someone yesterday spoke to me and

12 said they were unable to attend yesterday to watch this trial, which is

13 what they wished to do, because they were told by the security that we

14 were in closed session. I think it's important, I mention it to Your

15 Honours, so that it can be heard that we had a lot in closed session,

16 through necessity, but for a member of the public to be told that it was

17 in closed session when it was in fact in open session is not very helpful,

18 if --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not very helpful. At the same time, I think

20 at least from this side, I have a better view than you have. But we did

21 have some spectators yesterday.

22 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: There was an audience, for sure. And I actually

24 recognised at least one person amongst the audience today that was here

25 yesterday.

Page 4983

1 MS. KORNER: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And I could recognise also the others. So --

3 MS. KORNER: I agree.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So I don't see why some were admitted and some

5 weren't.

6 MS. KORNER: Exactly. Your Honour, that's problem. I think there

7 should be at least the security should get together and decide whether

8 they're all going to say one thing or they're all going to say different

9 things. But I'm simply raising that.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner, and I'll try to pass on the

11 message via the registrar to the Chief of Security. I thank you. Thank

12 you, Ms. Korner.

13 Yes, please now proceed with your examination-in-chief.


15 Q. Sir, we'd just dealt with the beatings that had occurred whilst

16 you were in the yard and during the interrogation. Did -- were you beaten

17 anywhere else or on any other occasion?

18 A. I was beaten in Manjaca in the camp, that is, when I arrived up

19 there. I will tell you about it.

20 Q. No. I'm sorry. I still want to deal with the police station.

21 Anywhere else at the police station?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Of the people in your cell, you described that there were four

24 people originally and then a further four were brought in. Did the cell

25 remain with nine people, or eventually was it reduced?

Page 4984

1 A. I said already that I was brought on the 25th of May. And on that

2 day, I found four. So together, there were five in the cell. The

3 following day or perhaps in the following two days, another four people

4 were brought to the cell.

5 Q. And did they remain there until you were transported to Manjaca?

6 Were you always nine people after that?

7 A. Before I was transferred to Manjaca -- and I was transfer there

8 on the 17th of June -- so I was there for 24 days in that cell. Before

9 me, a group of five persons were taken out, and they were never

10 returned to the cell.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. That was on the 12th of June. I think it was the 12th of June or

13 perhaps the 6th of June. But in any case, two weeks before I left the

14 cell.

15 Q. Okay. Now, the four people who remained -- who remained with you

16 in the cell, can you name them?

17 A. Yes, I can. So I was there, and there was Mr. Suad Sabic,

18 Mr. Faik Biscevic, and Mr. Ismet Jakupovic.

19 Q. These people that you've named, can you just tell us what their

20 positions were before they were put in the cell with you. What did

21 Mr. Suad Sabic do?

22 A. Mr. Sabic was a lawyer by training. And politically he was

23 active, and he was a deputy in the Sanski Most municipality on behalf of

24 the SDA party. He was in the main board of the SDA party in Sarajevo.

25 And he was in the municipality board of the SDA party.

Page 4985

1 Q. Mr. Faik Biscevic, what did he do?

2 A. Mr. Faik Biscevic was a -- working in the health service. He

3 was a dentist. And he was also a deputy in the Sanski Most Municipal

4 Assembly on behalf of the SDA party. And for a while, I believed that he

5 was the vice-president of the SDA party in Sanski Most.

6 Q. Okay. What about Mr. Ismet Jakupovic?

7 A. Mr. Ismet Jakupovic was a director of an insurance company called

8 Dunav in Sanski Most. I think that he was a member of the reform party, a

9 political party of the Reform forces.

10 Q. Were you also detained at some stage with Mr. Catic, Stipo?

11 A. Stipo Catic. Mr. Stipo Catic was also -- this is a group that I

12 mentioned, the first five who were taken out from our cell. He was among

13 the first five. And he was a Croat. He worked at Jugobanka, and he was a

14 member of the Reform party, an opposition party.

15 Q. Mr. Fikret Saletovic?

16 A. Mr. Saletovic is a teacher. And he was a party of the Reform

17 party -- an opposition party.

18 Q. And was he also in your cell at some stage?

19 A. Yes, he was. Exactly on the 25th of May, he was also arrested.

20 And I found him in the cell.

21 Q. Did you -- apart from the people who you -- were in your cell, did

22 you also come to know who else had been arrested and was in the cells?

23 A. In another cell, there was Mr. Mirzet Karabeg, president of the

24 executive council of the municipality. And then there was also Mr. Redzo

25 Kurbegovic. He was then the elected president of the SDA party. There

Page 4986

1 was also Hase Osmancevic, who was a private businessman. And he was the

2 president of Merhamet. Then there was also Nedzad Muhic, who was the

3 president of the misdemeanours court of the municipality. And then there

4 was Sevdaga Hukanovic, who was underage. He was about 17 years old.

5 He came from the locality of Vrhpolje. Then there was --

6 Q. Okay. Don't worry about naming more. Just generally, you've

7 described the various positions that people held. Of the prisoners that

8 you came across in the police station, were most of them -- or what

9 proportion of them, people of some standing in the community, Muslims or

10 Croats?

11 A. I think they were all prominent people who held certain positions

12 in the community life in Sanski Most, apart from the young man, the minor,

13 who was brought from Vrhpolje because he had -- he had worked for a --

14 another young man about whom they believed that he was a member of the

15 Green Berets in Vrhpolje.

16 Q. Now, whilst you were at the police station in the cells, did you

17 hear anything or see anything to do with the attack that took place on

18 Mahala, in area in which you lived?

19 A. On the 26th of May, that is, the following day after -- the day

20 after I was arrested, in the evening at around 2100 hours I heard

21 shelling. I heard shells being fired. It was terrible because the firing

22 of shells lasted throughout the night. They were fired almost every

23 minute or every two to three minutes. We did not know where the shells

24 were going to, but I felt that they were either being fired from the roof

25 of the prison or from the football field Podgrmec, which is located

Page 4987

1 right behind the building, or in front of Betonirka, which is in the

2 immediate vicinity of the prison cells. These were terrible detonations.

3 And at first I counted them. I counted the explosions. There were about

4 400 of them. And then I stopped counting them.

5 Q. Now, I want to show you, please -- ask you to look at again the

6 plan of Sanski Most itself with the photographs around it, which is

7 P475 -- 74 -- thank you. 757.1.

8 You told us that it sounded as though they were being fired from

9 the roof of the prison or from the football field behind the cells. Just

10 looking at the map for a moment -- I think the best thing is if you could

11 put it on the ELMO and just indicate when you say football fields, what

12 you're talking about.

13 A. This is the location where the football field is, called Podgrmec,

14 here. Right next to the edge of the field is a concrete wall, fence.

15 And there there's the police station, and behind this concrete fence is

16 the -- are the prison cells.

17 Q. And as we can see, the area called Mahala was directly across the

18 river.

19 A. At that time I didn't yet know where the shells were going to. We

20 were only able to guess in the prison in that horrifying fear. It was

21 only in the morning at 5.00 when the policemen opened the door of the

22 cell. They then said that Mahala was being shelled. I will then show

23 where Mahala is. This is locality of Mahala. Here is Muhici and Otoke.

24 Q. Okay. Yes, thank you.

25 MS. KORNER: You can -- we can take that map away. And remove

Page 4988

1 the -- because I think the other is distracted to the witness. So please

2 turn it off.

3 Q. That's what you heard during the night. Did there come a time

4 when you would --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

6 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.

7 Q. That's what you heard during the night. Did there come a time

8 when you would -- you and others were taken from your cells and taken to

9 watch what was happening?

10 A. In the course of the following day, that is, on the 27th of May,

11 in the afternoon they came. They unlocked the door, and they forced us

12 out of the cell. It was a large group of policemen. They were

13 reservists, and there were also soldiers who had been in Mahala. They led

14 us out to watch Mahala burning, to watch Mahala on fire. And smoke -- I

15 saw black clouds, the whole sky filled with them on the southern side. It

16 was on fire. At that point I saw that Mahala was burning.

17 Q. The soldiers you described who had been in Mahala, first what kind

18 of soldiers? From -- were you able to tell from which unit?

19 A. They were members of the 6th Krajina Brigade and members of the

20 Serb Territorial Defence. And I knew all these people who were members,

21 and they were also members of the Crisis Staff.

22 Q. Yes. I'll come back to that in a moment?

23 A. Like --

24 Q. Just stop there?

25 A. [In English] Okay.

Page 4989

1 Q. How did you know that they'd been in Mahala? Did they tell you?

2 A. [Interpretation] I had already said. At 5.00 in the morning on

3 the 27th of May, a policeman came who unlocked the door. And he was

4 armed. And then he was followed by several others, and he said that that

5 night they had attacked Mahala, and that's when I found out. In fact, he

6 was very frustrated and angry, and he threatened us that we would pay for

7 this. He said some things like, for instance, that 1.000 people had been

8 killed and that there were 400 Green Berets left who hadn't surrendered

9 yet. But in the course of the day, we would certainly overwhelm them and

10 kill them. These were terrifying things. And of course I was in a state

11 of shock, and I didn't believe this. I knew that there had been no

12 resistance whatsoever in Mahala. I even then knew that this was

13 propaganda.

14 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. What I actually meant was: How did you know

15 that those soldiers and the SOS who took you out, those particular

16 soldiers and those particular members of the SOS, had taken part in the

17 action against Mahala?

18 A. Well, they themselves said it. They said that they had been in

19 Mahala and that they had destroyed the mosque. And they said that there

20 were snipers who were firing from my house and that Bosko Banjac, who

21 was a former friend of mine, a teacher, that he had called by telephone

22 and that he had asked a cannon called Crni Djordje or Black Djordje, and

23 that he had called Dusan Saovic, known as Njunja, to come with the cannon

24 and neutralise the attack from my house. And I said, "Well, there is

25 nobody in my house."

Page 4990

1 And I pulled a key out of my pocket, a key to my house. And I

2 said, "My wife and children are in Germany. There is no one there." They

3 then said, "We had to set it on fire." I was told this by Bosko Banjac,

4 this friend of mine, and Nemanja Tripkovic and another soldier who's a

5 neighbour of mine, a Serb from Kljucka Street - Kljucka - who said that

6 they had been on my street and the house was set on fire. And the others

7 told me as well.

8 Q. Now, you've told us that Mr. Tripkovic was a member of the Crisis

9 Staff and came to see you in your cells. Were there any other people

10 there who you knew then or later found out were members of the Sanski Most

11 Crisis Staff?

12 A. I said that Nemanja Tripkovic was together with Rasula. So two of

13 them from the Crisis Staff.

14 Q. So Rasula was one of the people who took you out to watch your

15 house and Mahala burning.

16 A. Rasula wasn't there then. He was with Tripkovic.

17 Q. And they came --

18 A. And on the 26th, I said earlier that was on the 26th in the cell.

19 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. But are you saying -- we need to get this

20 clear. Are you saying that the time you were taken out of the cell to

21 watch Mahala burn, Mr. Tripkovic was there. Or was this the incident when

22 he visited you in your cell?

23 A. Mr. Tripkovic was in an army uniform then. And Bosko Banjac was

24 also in an army uniform. And they had just arrived then at that

25 location.

Page 4991

1 Q. Yes. But did they -- are they two of the people who were outside

2 with you when you were watching Mahala burn?

3 A. Yes, they were. Yes, they were.

4 Q. All right. Now, whilst that was happening, did anything else

5 happen to you and the other prisoners who were outside?

6 A. That very same evening, Tomo Delic came, who was a duke, a

7 Vojvoda. He brought a bottle of brandy, and he made us drink this brandy

8 in all this horror. They didn't let us return to the cell immediately.

9 An incident could have occurred between the police and the army. We had

10 to drink alcohol in all that horror.

11 On that occasion, Tomo Delic told me, "You were in a census

12 commission of the municipality of Sanski Most. Why didn't you register,

13 record the victims from the Second World War that the Serbs had suffered

14 or who were in Susnjar?" I said that I was not a member of the census

15 commission. He then said that we would all pay and that they would

16 balance the figures out, the number of people who had been killed in the

17 Second World War, and that we would pay for Susnjar.

18 Q. Thank you. And Mr. -- And Tomo Delic was who? What was his

19 position?

20 A. Tomo Delic, as far as I know, was formationally appointed to be an

21 SOS commander. He was in fact also in the 4th Battalion of the 6th

22 Krajina Brigade. He was one of the main people who provided finances for

23 the 6th Krajina Brigade.

24 Q. All right. And just so that it becomes entirely clear, apart from

25 the obvious that you were watching your homes burn, what was the point of

Page 4992

1 making you drink brandy? Why was that so terrible?

2 A. Above all, you know that we are Muslims. Furthermore, in that

3 horror in the most difficult moment of our existence, we were being made

4 to drink --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he can -- you can move to the next question,

6 Ms. Korner.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I just don't want to take it for granted

8 that everybody had understood why that was.



11 Q. All right. You remained, you told us, at the police station until

12 the 17th of June, when you were transported. Before you were transported,

13 were there earlier convoys of prisoners taken to Manjaca?

14 A. We didn't know in prison what was going on outside. I've already

15 said that four of the prisoners from our cell were taken away. We didn't

16 know where they went. Also from another cell they had taken some people.

17 We knew that there were, I think, also four people left there.

18 But an engineer came to the cell, Muhamed Arapovic, who used

19 to work in the municipality as a construction inspector. And this was on

20 the 27th of May. He said that on the radio they had said -- they had

21 accused him of being a sniper and of firing from his building with a

22 sniper rifle, whereas in fact he was at his parents' place in another

23 street, and he came of his own accord to report to the police. And then

24 he said to us that across the bridge -- when he was crossing the bridge --

25 he saw snipers who were firing from a room in the Sanus Hotel. They were

Page 4993

1 soldiers of the 6th Krajina Brigade who had been positioned there earlier

2 on.

3 Q. Yes. I --

4 A. And he said that -- sorry.

5 Q. I'm sorry. Unless this is particularly relevant to the question

6 of going to Manjaca, I want to deal with the convoys to Manjaca.

7 A. I just wanted to add that he told us that Dr. Alagic Mehmed had

8 been killed in front of the department store. That's what I wanted to

9 say.

10 Q. Yes. Okay can I tell you, sir that, there are going to be a lot

11 of people that are going to be dealing with a lot of the events that you

12 can cover.

13 The convoys to Manjaca, perhaps we can just deal with those -- was

14 the first convoy of prisoners on the 6th of June from which some of your

15 cellmates were sent -- on which.

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Did you subsequently discover from conversations and/or

18 investigations that six people had been removed from that first transport

19 to Manjaca?

20 A. I did. I learnt that at Manjaca, that six persons had been

21 returned. And we never found them again.

22 Q. Then was the second transport on or about the 11th of 12th of

23 June?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. And again, were six people removed from that convoy who have never

Page 4994

1 been seen again?

2 A. Again, I learnt this at Manjaca, straight away from the detainees

3 who were in that convoy. The names of the people -- and there were six of

4 them -- who were in that convoy -- or rather, in the truck who were turned

5 back and whom we never found.

6 Q. And finally, were you sent on the 3rd convoy from the prison to

7 Manjaca on the 17th of June, as you've told us?

8 A. Yes, I was in that convoy in a truck on the 17th of June, 1992.

9 Q. Now --

10 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour forgive me just a moment.

11 Your Honours, before --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, may I make an announcement. I

13 have just been asked by Judge Schomburg to convey to you the following

14 notice: Namely, that upon your request, the hearing on a motion will take

15 place in a courtroom available, either I or III -- and I'm being told it's

16 I now.


18 JUDGE AGIUS: At 9.30 a.m. In public session in the presence of

19 that accused. To that extent, his former order of today is hereby

20 vacated.

21 MS. KORNER: I'm very grateful to Your Honour for letting us

22 know.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Just to make sure that you are prepared for

24 it.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes.

Page 4995

1 Q. Sir, what I want you to look at now is a video, which you've had a

2 chance to see before we move to Manjaca of the Sanski Most area.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, which we did look at right at the

4 beginning. But I want to witness to identify the various areas.

5 It's being handed to the audiovisual unit. I think the usher

6 needs to put the television on video evidence.

7 And I hope it's actually cued to the to the same place. I

8 honestly can't remember what the exhibit number of that is. Yes. Yes,

9 that's it.

10 Q. All right. You've seen this before. Can you just tell us what's

11 the camera looking at at the moment?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, your microphone is on.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a very blurred picture. I mean, I would be

14 very surprised if the witness can tell us --

15 MS. KORNER: He can.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: He can.

17 MS. KORNER: I've been through this with him.

18 Q. It's on pause at the moment.

19 Can you tell us what this is, sir, what we're looking at?

20 A. Just a moment, please.

21 [Videotape played]

22 A. This is in Prijedor, Carakovo, the bridge at Carakovo, I think.

23 That's better.

24 Now, this is Sanski Most, the Krings hall.

25 MS. KORNER: Okay. Will you please --

Page 4996

1 Q. Can you -- what we're looking at there, you say, sir, is that the

2 long building with the white sort of roof?

3 A. Yes, it is. The narrow one, long and narrow.

4 Q. And that's the Krings factory?

5 A. It has a white roof. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Okay. Move on.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MS. KORNER: Pause, please?

9 A. That's the sports hall there.

10 MS. KORNER: Can we -- I'm sorry. Could we pause -- go back.

11 Q. The sports hall where?

12 MS. KORNER: All right. Run it forward again.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Forward, please.

14 Now. Stop, please.

15 MS. KORNER: Stop.

16 Q. Okay. The sports hall is which one? Where we can see the field?

17 A. Right to the left, to the extreme left, down, with the red roof.

18 That is the city sports hall. Before that we saw the Krings hall, where

19 people were detained on that day when Sanski Most was attacked.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Also, this sports hall was used to detain people from Mahala, from

22 Otoke, and Muhici on the 27th of May, 1992.

23 MS. KORNER: Okay. Can we move on then, please, with the movie.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MS. KORNER: Could we pause there for a moment.

Page 4997

1 A. This is --

2 MS. KORNER: Can we go back. Can we go back. Just for a moment.

3 One shot.

4 Oh, that will do.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That will do. Exactly.

6 A. This is the Mahala district of the town to the left from the

7 department store, the mosque is at the very entrance to the Mahala area.

8 The Mahala neighbourhood is on the left bank of the Sana River.

9 MS. KORNER: What happened to that mosque? I mean, this is

10 obviously taken last year. But during this period.

11 A. This is a new mosque that was built after 1997, 1998. There used

12 to be a mosque there which was destroyed by the armed forces of the 6th

13 Krajina Brigade. For the first time on the 27th of May, they tried to

14 destroy it with explosives. It was destroyed in three stages and totally

15 destroyed, and the material was completely removed so that the area was

16 turned into a parking lot.

17 Q. I just want to deal with the question, then, please, of mosques

18 and other religious buildings. How many mosques did Sanski Most have in

19 May of 1992?

20 A. In the Sanski Most municipality, there was a total of 27 mosques.

21 They were all completely destroyed, as well as four Catholic churches.

22 Q. In the town of Sanski Most itself, how many mosques were there?

23 Just the one or more than one?

24 A. We only had one town mosque, the Hamzibegova mosque.

25 Q. And Catholic churches? Any in Sanski Most?

Page 4998

1 A. We also had one Catholic church, which is situated in Banja Luka

2 Street in the immediate vicinity of the elementary school.

3 Q. All right. Can we just -- yes. If we go on. We're looking there

4 at the entrance to -- I'm sorry.

5 MS. KORNER: Hang on. Just pause for a moment, please. Can we go

6 back again. Thank you. To the bridge. Stop. Okay. Stop it there,

7 please.

8 Q. That's the bridge. On the other side of the bridge is that

9 correct where the Hotel Sanus was?

10 A. The Sanus Hotel is situated to the right of the river -- to the

11 right-hand side of the bridge. As soon as you cross the bridge, it's on

12 the right-hand side. And on the left-hand side is the department store,

13 Sanjaka.

14 MS. KORNER: All right. I'm sorry. If we'd like to go on the

15 with film.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop here, please. On the

18 right-hand side, in the right-hand corner is the elementary school called

19 Hasan Kikic. People were detained there too: Men, Muslim men, and Croat

20 men, citizens of Sanski Most municipality, to the right, behind the school

21 in a hall, and they mistreated them there too. And from this school they

22 drove them to Manjaca.

23 MS. KORNER: Okay. If we could move the film on.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop, please.

Page 4999

1 Here you can see the Serbian Orthodox church in the middle, which

2 is completely intact and was intact.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you. Could you move the film.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MS. KORNER: Stop, please.

6 A. That is Betonirka.

7 Q. We're now looking at Betonirka.

8 A. You can move forward a little to -- so that we can see the garages

9 where people were detained and mistreated. So will you wind forward a

10 little, please.

11 MS. KORNER: Okay. Can we move the film.

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop, please.

14 Right at the bottom in the left-hand corner we can see three

15 doors. These were concrete garages where on the 26th, that is, on the eve

16 of the attack and on the 27th and onwards, they would detain people there,

17 mostly Bosniaks, and Croats. In those three garages, about 150 people

18 were detained. They were very badly tortured there and beaten.


20 Q. Can I stop you there. Don't worry. We're going to hear from

21 witnesses about that.

22 Just so that we -- I think we may get another shot of it in a

23 moment but where was the police station in relation to those garages that

24 you just indicated?

25 A. A little forward, please. Can you move the film forward, please.

Page 5000

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Wind back a little, please. [In

3 English] Stop. Stop.

4 [Interpretation] The police station is situated on the left-hand

5 side above the middle of the screen. You can see that it consists of two

6 parts. The actual prison premises are next to the wall, or rather, to the

7 far left towards the football pitch. And you can see a grey surface.

8 That is the prison. And next to the prison, parallel with the building,

9 is the ammunition warehouse where ammunition and materiel were held. And

10 that is also where the command of the Territorial Defence staff was and

11 the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade, which was removed when the

12 attack started.


14 Q. And that's --

15 A. It was relocated into the hills.

16 Q. And that's also -- is it the football field that you were talking

17 about at the back that we can just see on the left of the picture? And I

18 think we get another shot of --

19 A. That's right. Yes.

20 MS. KORNER: Okay. Can we move the film on.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now you can see --

23 Stop, please. A little back. A little backwards, please. Stop

24 now.

25 Now you can see the tallest building was the building of the

Page 5001

1 Serbian Territorial Defence. That is also where the radio station was

2 relocated to. And then next to it is the police. And in the ground -- on

3 the ground floor, there's a hall. And the prison, as I have already

4 explained, is this lower building facing the football field. And the

5 higher building is where the weapons and equipment was kept.

6 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Yes, we can move the film.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm just waiting, because I think

9 there's one other part.

10 We're going out of Sanski Most now.

11 All right. Thank you very much.

12 Q. Just before we -- if we just pause for a moment -- which direction

13 is this showing now, Judge, if you can remember? If you know, I should

14 say, not if you can remember.

15 A. I think it is moving in the direction towards Tomina and Vrhpolje

16 Bridge.

17 Q. All right. Perhaps -- yes, I thought --

18 MS. KORNER: Could we just run it a little long. I think it takes

19 just about a minute or so. Could we run the film a little longer. I

20 think you're able to.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Tomina, the settlement of

23 Tomina. This is the main road going from Sanski Most towards Kljuc. To

24 the right and left of the road is the settlement of Tomina. At the end of

25 this road, there should be a bridge across the Sana River in the

Page 5002

1 settlement of Vrhpolje, where crimes were committed. That's the bridge

2 I'm talking about.

3 MS. KORNER: Okay. Can we pause it there for a moment. Pause,

4 please.

5 Q. We're going hear later that you were present when exhumations were

6 conducted at the bridge. Where were the graves found?

7 A. If I may, I would like to say one sentence only. This road to the

8 left is the road along which we were driven to Manjaca. So from this

9 crossroads.

10 And in answer to your question, this is a new bridge that was

11 built after the war. The old bridge was destroyed in 1995 in September by

12 the Serb armed forces. Below that bridge, which resembled this one that

13 we see now, we discovered and exhumed two mass graves of killed civilians

14 from the area of Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, and Kljevci. One mass grave was

15 found and exhumed on the right-hand side, directly below the bridge. A

16 second mass grave was discovered to the left of the bridge, on the

17 left-hand side below the bridge. A third mass grave in that location was

18 found downstream, about 150 metres from the bridge on the right bank.

19 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, sir.

20 MS. KORNER: We can stop the film now.

21 Your Honour, I'm helpfully told by Ms. Gustin, as ever, that it's

22 Exhibit P447 that we've been watching, so the transcript reflects it.

23 Q. Judge, I want to come now to Manjaca. You were taken there on the

24 17th of June. How many people were taken there with you?

25 A. As far as I can remember, there was a lorry at that time, and I

Page 5003

1 was led out of the cell and so was Mr. Ismet Jakupovic, and there was a

2 lorry waiting in front of Betonirka. They called out my name, and

3 this was done by my former colleague, Drago Vujinic, who had worked in

4 SUP. And he had lists of names. When we went out of the cell, he told me

5 to bend my head down and to put my hands behind my back. I was escorted

6 by two armed soldiers and another two armed soldiers were escorting Mr.

7 Ismet Jakupovic. When we went through the corridor and went out of the

8 police building there were cordons of policemen, soldiers, civilians. It

9 was terrible. They took us 150 metres away to the compound of Betonirka.

10 And I asked Drago, "Where are you taking us?" He replied, "You'll see."

11 When we got to the lorry, he ordered us to board the lorry. There were 22

12 or 23 Bosniaks in the lorry. In any case, these were all people who I

13 knew. They were either intellectuals or private entrepreneurs.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. Or they were --

16 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. Or they were ...?

17 A. They were all people known to me, prominent citizens of Sanski

18 Most and the surrounding locations around Sanski Most. There were 23 of

19 us.

20 Q. Were any of these people in any kind of military uniform?

21 A. No one. Absolutely nobody.

22 Q. Had anybody been charged or tried for -- sorry. Had anybody been

23 charged with any criminal offence?

24 A. No. No one had been charged. That means nobody received an

25 indictment, charges in writing.

Page 5004

1 Q. Had any of these people, as far as you knew, been involved in any

2 kind of fighting or resistance to the Serbs, the SDS, the 6th Krajina

3 Brigade, the SOS?

4 A. No one.

5 Q. Now, you were taken to Manjaca. And I want to deal with what

6 happened when you arrived at Manjaca. But had you -- did you know about

7 Manjaca before this? Had you heard of it?

8 A. First, when I came in the lorry and I saw there were people with

9 injuries on their faces, that they had been beaten up on their bodies, and

10 when the vehicle set off and the canvas sheeting came down, we then said,

11 "Would we be killed? Where are we being taken?" Nobody knew.

12 Q. I'm sorry. You misunderstood, sir. It's my fault. Had you heard

13 of Manjaca as either a military training ground or some kind of military

14 prison camp before your arrival there? Not in the back of the lorry, but

15 I mean before you were arrested even.

16 A. Yes, I have. I knew quite a lot about Manjaca because Manjaca was

17 a large training ground of the JNA. It was one of the largest training

18 grounds used for training. And this ground consisted of a large area,

19 about 40 kilometres square. And it was situated about 30 kilometres from

20 Banja Luka, that is, perhaps 40 or fewer kilometres from Sanski Most,

21 between the municipalities of Banja Luka, Sanski Most, Kljuc, and Mrkonjic

22 Grad.

23 Q. All right. Now, you were driven in this truck to the camp. What

24 happened to you when you actually arrived at the camp?

25 A. When we arrived, they then opened the canvas cover and they

Page 5005

1 started to call out the names. This was done by Drago Vujinic, who was

2 carrying the list of names. And we started to get off. But we had

3 already heard the army and the police there. As people were getting off

4 the lorry, beating started, severe beating started. Each one of us who

5 got off the lorry was immediately beaten with pre-prepared wooden poles.

6 And when we all got off the lorry, they ordered us to put the hands behind

7 our back, to bend our heads, not to look around. We went through a cordon

8 of soldiers, of military policemen, who were beating us severely.

9 Q. First of all, you said -- talked about the pre-prepared wooden

10 poles. Was any -- were any other weapons used to beat you and your fellow

11 prisoners?

12 A. As they were taking us in, they were beating us with wooden poles,

13 with electric cables, with rifle butts. They were kicking us in their

14 boots. Each one of us was a recipient of severe beating. Once we were

15 inside, we were then forced onto these -- this wire fence. I saw these

16 stables, and we had to run to a stable. And as we came in, they then told

17 us to lift our heads and to look around.

18 Q. Okay. Before we go on to this, when you -- you said that the --

19 Drago was calling out a list of names. Was anything said by anybody when

20 your name was called out?

21 A. Yes. When he called out my name, they went for me. They said,

22 "Here is another Draganovic." And I became even more frightened, but I

23 presumed that there were other people with the same surname like me, my

24 relatives.

25 Q. Where did most of your relatives live?

Page 5006

1 A. I was born in the municipality of Kljuc. And the place is called

2 Hadzici, that is Pudin Han. And my relatives were from there. That's

3 where they lived.

4 Q. Okay. All right. You told us that you were taken to the

5 stables. What happened when you got to the stable?

6 A. If you'll allow me, I'll have to start from the beginning. When

7 we entered the first stable, they then showed us around to look at the

8 people who had been brought there before us. And they said that these

9 people were dead and that we would end up like them. And I saw people who

10 were laid out. They had their hair cut. They were barefoot. They were

11 lying on their fronts on the ground in one side of the stables in a -- in

12 a box, a horse's box. There were many of them, perhaps 200. I glanced at

13 them, and they were all lying on the ground. Their heads were -- was

14 down. Their hands were behind their backs. That's how they were. They

15 were like wood, pieces of wood. And then they continued to beat us. And

16 then they took us to another stable.

17 When we entered another stable, they again ordered us to stop and

18 to look around, to lift our heads. And I saw the same scene. People

19 were -- with their hair cut. They were practically naked and barefooted.

20 They were lying with their heads down. Their faces were turned down to

21 the ground, and their hands were up behind their backs, and they were laid

22 out like sardines. And then they took us further.

23 Again in a hurry while they were beating, because there were

24 several of them on both sides of us.

25 Then they brought us to a room for which I later -- about which I

Page 5007

1 later learnt that this was a solitary cell, also a small stable. It's a

2 small building below the stable in camp number 1. There they forced us

3 into this small stable while beating us and ordered us to immediately lie

4 down on the concrete floor, that we mustn't look up, that our hands had to

5 be behind our back. They were doing all this while they were beating us,

6 and this beating lasted almost for an hour or two hours. And then they

7 left us like this and they went to change. In fact, the first thing they

8 did was they searched us, and we stood up to get the money out, everything

9 we had in our pockets. They took money from everybody. They said that if

10 they found money on anyone, that they would kill that person. I had

11 money, and they were sewn into my underwear. And while they were

12 searching, I tore my underwear, and I got the money out and I put it in my

13 hand behind my back. That's how they ordered it to be. They took the

14 money. They took the money from everybody in this way. And they then

15 ordered us again to lie down on the concrete floor.

16 When they had a change of clothes, it had already been raining and

17 they were a little wet or perhaps wet with sweat from the beating. They

18 came again the same evening. And they continued to beat us. This cannot

19 be described. During that first night, several occasions they came and

20 they would be -- they were beating us up, all of us. They were beating

21 us. They were armed with wooden poles, which were about 1 and a half

22 metres long. They were about 5 to 10 centimetres thick. They had

23 electric cables -- they beat us with electric cables that were about 5

24 centimetres thick. They were about 1 metre long. Then they had batons,

25 different items.

Page 5008

1 Q. Can I stop you there for a moment. Who was doing the beating?

2 A. These were military policemen in uniforms. We didn't -- we were

3 not allowed to look while we were being beaten, but in all this beating,

4 after the blows had fallen, we would fall down. And of course I was able

5 to see that these were uniforms of the military police, because they had

6 on them, white belts with the insignia of the police.

7 Q. Were you able to tell if there were any officers there, or was it

8 just ordinary military policemen? Or if you can't, say. Then tell us.

9 A. I don't know. Because we were not allowed to look. I -- if I can

10 just say. Whether it was that night or perhaps the following night, after

11 all the beatings, in the end we all had to stand. And then one by one

12 they would then beat them to the floor with a hit -- with a blow in the

13 back. And then the soldier who hit us would have a run, and then he would

14 use a karate blow to the spine, and each one of us would fall on the

15 floor. I can still feel that blow today.

16 Q. All right. You were in Manjaca, I think, until December of 1992;

17 is that correct?

18 A. That's correct. Until the 14th of December, 1992.

19 Q. I want to deal now with various aspects of life in Manjaca during

20 that period that you were there. First of all, the beatings. You've

21 described what happened to you that first night. Thereafter, were you

22 beaten again?

23 A. In that isolation with -- together with this group, I spent

24 perhaps seven or eight days. I don't remember exactly. Every night --

25 every day we were beaten, all of us. And then they would -- they would

Page 5009

1 wake us up about 2.00 or 3.00 in the evening. They would come -- several

2 of them would come to beat us. I was then woken up twice or three times.

3 And that beating would then last for half an hour -- 45 minutes or an

4 hour. I don't know. There were five of them. I know that there were

5 three military policemen.

6 There was one soldier. He was a soldier in a

7 camouflage uniform, and he had a helmet on his head, and he had

8 something -- some mask on his helmet. They beat us. One was using an --

9 a cable to beat. Another one was using a baton. Two were using their

10 boots, kicking us in the stomach, in the chest, in the mouth. And this

11 young soldier, he was the worst. He was using his hands in the area of

12 the heart, where the heart was. So the worst was that I would have to

13 stand to attention with my hands behind my back, and he would use his

14 hands as a boxer, beating me in the area of the heart. I would receive

15 over 20 blows while he was doing that. And the others were beating at the

16 same time -- were beating me at the same time. I fell several times on

17 the floor, on the concrete, and then I would get up -- I don't know how --

18 because once you fall down, then they beat you even -- in an even worse

19 way. They would be kicking with the boots. I don't know how I survived

20 that night. It was once or twice, but the second time there were three of

21 them.

22 Q. Yes. Over the period of the next six months or so, were you

23 beaten again in this sort of fashion?

24 A. When we went out of this solitary cell, there were several

25 beatings. When I was in the stable on one occasion, some man -- a

Page 5010

1 military policeman called Popovic, he was beating me in the face with his

2 fists, with his hands. Several times they would call us out by name in

3 the night; not just me, but the others as well.

4 Q. Did these beatings take place as far as you were concerned - I'll

5 come to others in a moment - on a daily basis, a weekly basis, monthly,

6 or was it just random?

7 A. If you just mean as far as I'm concerned, I can say that after

8 that I was beaten about another four or five times. No longer after

9 that. But there were people who were more beaten than I was on many more

10 occasions. There were people who were beaten to death.

11 Q. I'm going to -- I'm going to ask you about those people, but I

12 just want to concentrate on you for a moment. When did the beatings stop,

13 then, as far as you were concerned? How long after your arrival,

14 roughly?

15 A. When I was in the solitary cell, we were then taken for

16 interrogation outside of the compound to the command. And that was -- at

17 that interrogation, there was the officer who was taking a statement, and

18 he asked, "Were you beaten?" And I was -- I was black on my face and on

19 my body, and I said, "No, I wasn't beaten." After that --

20 Could you please repeat the question. I'm sorry.

21 Q. I understand. And this is the final question. You told us you

22 were beaten five or six times. At what period -- how long after your

23 arrival at the camp did the beatings against you stop? Was it a week, two

24 weeks, a month?

25 A. I think it was about 60 days there were no longer beatings in that

Page 5011

1 camp and I was not beaten any more. But those first 60 days were horrible

2 for all of us.

3 Q. And just one further question: What sort of -- you've described

4 how you were black in your face and body. What sort of injuries did you

5 suffer as a result of those beatings?

6 A. I had, first of all, an injury to my spine from all the beating I

7 received. And then I also had broken teeth, two teeth. I had injuries on

8 my face, on my legs. I had bruises on my legs, and the circulation was

9 weakened by this. I had injuries on the left side -- of the left kidney.

10 I had injuries in the chestal area. These were the injuries.

11 Q. Did -- I want to ask separately about medical treatment. But do

12 you have any results still from those injuries today?

13 A. Of course, I can feel that. First of all, the psychological

14 trauma, which is present -- which has been present since then. And the

15 trauma has manifested from time to time. I also feel injuries to my

16 joints and constant pain in the back, in the spine when I'm breathing.

17 When I breathe in -- when I breathe in with my lungs and then when I stop

18 breathing, then I can feel that the air is then slowly going from the

19 lungs.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, we'll stop here for today. It will also give

22 you a little bit of a rest. We will continue tomorrow at 2.15 in this

23 same courtroom, if I remember well.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Just a small correction. I was informed that for

25 tomorrow's Motion Hearing before Judge Schomburg will be convened in

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1 Courtroom II instead of Courtroom I. Thank you.

2 MS. KORNER: Is that the final word on this?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, before it was I or III; now it's II.

4 So we'll all meet tomorrow at 2.15 and continue with the evidence

5 of the judge. I thank you and have a nice evening.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

7 at 5.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

8 the 26th day of April, 2002, at 2.25 p.m.