Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5531

1 Tuesday, May 14 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you hear me

9 in a language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your

11 Honours. I do.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down. Thank you.

13 General Talic, can you hear me in a language that you can

14 understand?

15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I

16 do hear you in a language that I understand.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. And you may sit down.

18 Appearances for the Prosecution.

19 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I am here, Joanna Korner,

20 assisted this morning by case manager Susan Grogan, who's sitting in for

21 Denise Gustin.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Ms. Korner.

23 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman with

25 Tania Radosavljevic and Marela Jevtovic.

Page 5532

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

2 Appearances for General Talic.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau

4 with Mr. Fabien Fauveau -- Mr. Fabien Masson, representing General Talic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: There's something wrong in the air this morning. I

6 don't know.

7 General Talic, if at any time you're not happy with the situation

8 of your Defence, please let me know.

9 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] I will let you know when I'm

10 unhappy.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, General Talic.

12 Ms. Korner.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I asked that Judge Draganovic just not

14 come into court, just to sort out finally the Rule 92 for Banja Luka.


16 MS. KORNER: There's only one statement that will be tendered

17 under Rule 92 as a result of Your Honour's rulings, which is 7.118. Your

18 Honour ruled it was admissible subject to various redactions. I was

19 reminded yesterday that this was, in fact, a witness for whom Your Honours

20 granted protective measures, and so I'm really raising it at this stage to

21 know how to deal with it. It will be exhibited, the Rule 92 statements,

22 as I understand it. Therefore, presumably it's open, as it were, to the

23 public. In other words, it's an exhibit in the case which could be looked

24 at by anybody.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It depends on how it is exhibited.

Page 5533

1 MS. KORNER: Well, that's -- that's what I'm raising in a sort of

2 rather haphazard fashion.

3 If the -- if it is to be available to anybody who wishes to look

4 at the records of this case, then because of the protective measures that

5 Your Honours granted, in other words, that he would have a pseudonym and

6 all the rest of it, we would have to equally redact - and that's why I'm

7 raising it, so the Defence can hear it - anything that would identify

8 him. We can certainly do that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think at this particular point for sure it stands

10 to reason. I mean -- as I see it. I don't know. Let me hear what

11 Mr. Ackerman has to say.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I think as much as possible we should try to

13 duplicate what the case would be if he in fact came here, and if the

14 protective measures are a pseudonym, then let's substitute a pseudonym for

15 the name that appears in the -- in the documents. The content, unless it

16 reveals his identity, should be public.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That I think we will have to go into -- I mean,

18 because obviously I would need to go through the statement carefully,

19 possibly the first exercise should be -- should be carried out by you,

20 Ms. Korner. But then before it is admitted with the redactions, I would

21 rather prefer that we go through it to make sure that there is nothing

22 else that has been left which -- due to an oversight or whatever, which

23 could compromise the protective measures that we have put in place.

24 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's what we'll do. What we'll

25 do is, before it's exhibited, we'll do the redactions which --

Page 5534

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.

2 MS. KORNER: We think are appropriate.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I see -- I mean, you can count on the cooperation of

4 the Defence on that. I see Madam Fauveau nodding as well. So it's --

5 MS. KORNER: Well, we'll give it to Your Honours and the Defence

6 before it's finally exhibited.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. I think that's the best way to deal

8 with it, of dealing with it. All right?

9 MS. KORNER: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good. Now, before we proceed --

11 Mr. Ackerman, I have just been given five minutes before walking

12 into this courtroom some motions or -- one is a motion from your client,

13 by and through you, asking this Trial Chamber to issue a redacted version

14 of its 1st May, 2002 decision on the admission of Rule 92 bis statements.


16 JUDGE AGIUS: That was already in my mind, and it's being taken

17 care of. I suppose that if I find the time, after consulting my two

18 colleagues, by the end of the day, latest tomorrow morning, we should be

19 in the position to issue a redacted version of that decision, which does

20 not present any major -- any major difficulties. So that the --

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't see it as a -- as a matter of any urgency,

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But it's a question -- I just wanted you to

24 know that it was already in hand, because I -- I realised that it was not

25 a kind of decision that should remain confidential.

Page 5535

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah. I think it's important to the jurisprudence

2 of the Tribunal and should be --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And then you have a request -- a motion requesting

4 this Trial Chamber to issue -- to issue a certificate pursuant to Rule 73

5 bis -- Rule 73(B), which has been amended, as you know, in order to allow

6 for an appeal of -- against this Chamber's decision of the 6th May on Rule

7 70.


9 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't discussed it with my colleagues as yet

10 because, as I said, this has just arrived this morning. Do you know

11 anything about it or --

12 MS. KORNER: I haven't seen them, Your Honour, at all.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it's just two paragraphs.

14 MS. KORNER: Right.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: There is the statement, which obviously this Trial

16 Chamber will need to go into, because it is at the basis of any

17 certification that we might or might not decide upon, the statement from

18 Mr. Ackerman or by Mr. Ackerman, that the decision of this Chamber of the

19 6th of May involves an issue that would significantly affect the fair and

20 expeditious conduct of the proceedings or the outcome of the trial and

21 that an immediate resolution by the Appeals Chamber may materially advance

22 the proceedings.

23 So this is something that we would await response upon from the

24 Prosecution, and then we will -- we will discuss it and decide whether to

25 issue a certification or not. So that is the next motion.

Page 5536

1 I'm sorry I'm dealing with them but I -- have you received these

2 already?

3 I just was given these five minutes before the sitting.

4 And then there is another motion for the issuance of the redaction

5 of the Chamber's confidential decision on the alleged legality of Rule

6 70. Again, this is unlike the 92 bis. I had not given this matter any

7 attention so far because, frankly, I was expecting a motion for

8 certification in any case, so I was not bothering about this. But I will

9 consult my two colleagues on this, and the probability is that we will

10 come down with a redacted version of the decision on Rule 70 as well.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: As a pure jurisprudential matter, it's probably

12 even more important to go into that.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I would think so, but I haven't discussed it with my

14 colleagues as yet, and therefore I reserve judgement on it.

15 So that's the position with regard to these motions.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we won't trouble to respond to the two

17 requests for redacted versions.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't expect you to, Ms. Korner. It would be a

19 waste of time. Because even for jurisprudential purposes, I mean, they

20 should be redacted.

21 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, it may be that the simplest way -- I

22 haven't considered the question of a certificate for the Rule 70, but it

23 may be the simplest way, certainly, if I agree to do it orally and even if

24 we don't agree to do it orally.


Page 5537

1 MS. KORNER: I mean, it just makes it quicker than having to go

2 through all this again.

3 Your Honour, on the subject of motions, can I raise one other that

4 is still outstanding, and it affects Madam Fauveau, because this is the

5 one where we notified the Defence that we were making an ex parte

6 application, and Mr. Ackerman responded.

7 When I looked at the transcript, I noticed that you invited

8 Madam Fauveau to respond in writing, although she said that she wasn't

9 objecting, subject -- she wanted two weeks off to do an investigation.

10 And I don't know whether you're waiting for that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I'm not waiting for that. The only thing

12 is this, that Mr. Ackerman, in the meantime, filed a response.

13 MS. KORNER: He did.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In which in subsedium he also mentioned this two

15 weeks' break.

16 MS. KORNER: That's right.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Should -- et cetera. So --

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's why I'm anxious for a number of

19 reasons to have a ruling. One is to discuss -- we will be saying that's

20 unnecessary, but --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being -- it's taken care of. However, with

22 regard to Madam Fauveau, I only discovered recently - I think last Friday,

23 I think - that --

24 Have you received -- because apparently due to an oversight, you

25 were never served with a French version of the motion. And therefore, the

Page 5538

1 difficulty that I had, although I took into consideration what you had

2 stated here, was the fact that I didn't know what, or how, you were going

3 to react to the fact that due to an oversight you had not received -- you

4 had not been served with the French translation of the motion, which I

5 understand was an oversight of whoever is responsible.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, quite frankly I'm not

7 sure whether we did receive the French translation. But however, I didn't

8 wait for the translation. And frankly speaking, I completely forgot, Your

9 Honour, Mr. President, that I was supposed to provide a written answer. I

10 thought that the oral answer was sufficient. If a written answer is

11 necessary, I'll do it.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no.

13 MS. KORNER: In fact, you did ask Madam Fauveau to respond,

14 because it was important to put it into writing. That's on the transcript

15 when I checked it.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Yes, I do recall that.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I do recall that.

19 MS. KORNER: But in Your Honours don't require it, I certainly

20 don't require it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I don't require it. I mean, if you're happy to

22 stick with what you had stated here -- I mean, we can proceed. I mean,

23 this is a motion that we have been working on, and I was only marking time

24 because I was informed at the last minute -- I mean, as you would imagine,

25 I always check whether there are any time limits still running before I

Page 5539

1 proceed, because the last thing I would want to do is to hand down a

2 decision while one of the parties has still got a time -- legal time

3 running. And I checked to see when you had been served with the French

4 translation because -- and only to find out that, due to an oversight, you

5 had not been served with the French translation. So now if you renounce

6 to that, I think we can proceed, we can go ahead.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. I still

8 remain with my words.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. We can proceed. We will hand

10 down the decision as soon as it is finished, actually -- yes. It should

11 be this week, I mean, because it's already in an advanced -- in quite an

12 advanced stage, actually.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, it would have been handed down, had it not

15 been for this thing that I found out.

16 So the witness, please.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Judge.

19 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you -- could I kindly ask you to proceed

21 with your solemn declaration before we go ahead.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 5540

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge. You may sit down.

2 Ms. Korner.

3 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

4 Q. Yes. I want this morning, please, Judge, to deal with the second

5 transcript from the tapes that were given to you of announcement on the

6 radio.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that was the one that begins with the

8 numbering 01905081. And if the B/C/S version could be handed to the

9 witness. It starts at the top, "side A, continuation from side B, and

10 then Vlado Vrkes.

11 Can I just check that Your Honours have got this?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

14 Q. Now, these are some further excerpts, Judge, I think it's right,

15 from announcements that were made over the radio, particularly in respect

16 of disarmament. And I'd like to look with you just at part of this. You

17 will see that at the bottom of -- I don't know where it comes in the B/C/S

18 version, but the reporter says something about "various rumours,

19 misinformation, which sometimes raises the temperature and which has been

20 calculated to upset the population. What do you recommend that citizens

21 should do? Probably perhaps to listen to our radio."

22 And this reply: "I do recommend that they listen and, and not

23 believe the information, the rumours, the misinformation aimed at causing

24 chaos in the Sanski Most municipality. Radio Sanski Most will broadcast

25 daily and it is the only institution charged with conveying views and

Page 5541

1 information about events in the territory of the Sanski Most municipality.

2 I ask you to listen to Radio Sanski Most non-stop and act in accordance

3 with the decisions broadcast on Sanski Most." Something

4 unintelligible, "can say this is a pretty difficult and dirty war, that

5 the Serbian people should not be a sentimental people, but fair, honest,

6 and strong in these moments because the war that we are involved in was

7 imposed on us, imposed from a religious standpoint, from the standpoint of

8 a jihad. Recently you have witnessed two statements by Mr.

9 Alija Izetbegovic calling for war of extermination. This is a religious

10 war. This is a jihad. And the Serb people have to be strong to endure it

11 all, have to be united to create their own state and preserve it."

12 First, did you hear broadcast by Vlado Vrkes?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Was this whilst you were in the prison or before, or both?

15 A. I heard it while I was in prison, but he was present in the media

16 even before -- before the armed operation, as they called it, because

17 Vlado Vrkes was constantly on the radio, so to speak, in these days in

18 May, in the month of May, and also while I was in prison.

19 Q. Did you hear him make statements like this, even if you didn't

20 hear this particular broadcast, namely, that Izetbegovic was calling for a

21 war of extermination and that it was a religious war started effectively

22 by the Muslim population?

23 A. I can't recall any such broadcast word for word, but the structure

24 of the sentences that Vrkes used is right. This is the way he spoke at

25 that time on the Serbian radio of Sanski Most. I listened to him on

Page 5542

1 several occasions. I listened to him at the time when I still went to

2 work, and on my way back from work in my car, on the radio, I would

3 sometimes stop the car to listen. This is his pamphlet which was the

4 essence of his speeches, strengthening the unity of the Serbian people,

5 thereby encouraging people to take up arms and to start an armed conflict

6 against Muslims and Croats, saying that we were -- what was it that he

7 called us? -- that we wanted to have a religious war, to wage a religious

8 war, a jihad. These are precisely the phrases that he used in his

9 speeches, and also in the documents, in the propaganda leaflets that were

10 plastered all over Sanski Most: In the apartments, in the public

11 institutions, and they appeared overnight in Sanski Most. So these are

12 the phrases, the structures, the sentences that he used. This is the kind

13 of propaganda aimed to encourage the Serbian people to unify and to unite

14 and to take up arms until the extermination. Because he's talking about

15 the extermination of the Serbian people that would be perpetrated by

16 Croats and Muslims, in order to encourage Serbs to take up arms and to

17 start a war.

18 Q. Can I just --

19 A. Or to go to war.

20 Q. I can just interrupt for a moment from your -- before you went --

21 before you were imprisoned on the 25th of May, from your dealings with the

22 Serbian population, was this propaganda effective?

23 A. It was very effective, very effective, believe me. I was quite

24 simply shocked, as a man, as a citizen of Sanski Most, as a judge, as an

25 intellectual. In these capacities, I had many friends, real friends, and

Page 5543

1 I spent more time with Serbs than with Bosniaks, in fact. This was quite

2 accidental. I didn't make any differences -- I didn't distinguish between

3 people. And all of a sudden in the month of May -- or rather, in April,

4 people just turned their backs. Do you understand? It was shocking for

5 me. It was shocking for all citizens, for all Bosniaks and Croats.

6 People quite simply stopped contacting each other. I can remember that at

7 my workplace in the -- in the court, the judges, of whom there were seven

8 of Serbian nationality -- two Bosniaks had already left. They went abroad

9 with their families.

10 Q. You told us that, yes.

11 A. I stayed on. They simply turned their heads away, and they would

12 no longer come to my office. They would come to agreements of some kind

13 among themselves. They would only establish contact among themselves, et

14 cetera.

15 Q. All right. I'd like to move, then, please, to the next page where

16 there was an announcement - it's a male voice - that all Muslims and

17 Croats unconditionally hand over weapons, is the beginning of the page.

18 This in fact, as I think we'll hear later from another witness, was made

19 by a Bosniak.

20 But at the bottom of that page: "Armed forces. The following

21 information has been obtained by interrogating one of the citizens. The

22 leading extremists in the village of Capalj are..." And then it gives a

23 number of names, Mr. Sancevic, "who is on the man and carrying a

24 machine-gun. The following is a list of armed people in the village." It

25 gives that list and the weapons that each of them are said to have.

Page 5544

1 Now, do you know about that particular village, Capalj?

2 A. I know all of these people, and I know about the village of

3 Capalj.

4 Q. How --

5 A. And if you'll allow me, I can say -- please go ahead and ask your

6 question.

7 Q. What I want to know is: These people whom you knew, did they have

8 these weapons that were being read out on the radio?

9 A. Well, for example, Hase Osmancevic, he was arrested on the same

10 day that I was arrested and he was put in prison in the public security

11 station. He was together with me in prison, and he was in Manjaca.

12 Later, he went to Canada with his family. He was a respected businessman.

13 He had a big industrial mill for flour. He had -- for make flour. He had

14 a bakery, and he had a lot of employees. As far as I know, he didn't have

15 anything.

16 Q. It alleges --

17 A. Ramo Kazic.

18 Q. Pause for a moment. Sorry.

19 A. [In English] Okay.

20 Q. It alleges that he was in possession of an anti-aircraft gun, a

21 semi-automatic rifle, five or six zoljas, hand-held rocket launchers, an

22 automatic rifle, three hunting rifles, a carbine, and an infrared sniper

23 rifle, in other words, a real armory. To your knowledge from speaking to

24 him and from what you knew of him, did he have such an armoury?

25 A. I can say that he had none of these arms. This is pure

Page 5545

1 propaganda, fabrication.

2 Q. Okay. And if we can just -- just one other name that you know

3 about in that list. You were beginning to tell us about him.

4 A. Mr. Ramo Kazic. He's a Bosniak, between 60 and 70 years of age at

5 that time. He was a respected businessman from the village of Capalj. And

6 I can, with confidence, state that he didn't have any kinds of weapons.

7 This is pure fabrication and propaganda.

8 Q. And just in a sentence, what happened to that village of Capalj?

9 Do you know?

10 A. As far as I know, the village of Capalj fared fairly well in

11 comparison to the other villages, because the population that left -- the

12 people who left that village, their houses were taken over by the Serbs.

13 Nedeljko Rasula is from that village.

14 Q. Now, can we finally on this move to the next part, which deals

15 with Vrhpolje. It gives what's called the list of Vrhpolje extremists.

16 They are -- the command of the Serbian armed forces calls on the

17 representatives to come to this meeting at the school, and so on and so

18 forth.

19 Then if you go - and I don't know where it's in the B/C/S - to a

20 number of pages on, the page begins at the top of the English version:

21 "The nearest military unit." It's page 01905087. And then we see a male

22 voice -- I'm not sure the B/C/S -- there's a male voice, an answer

23 beginning, "Property and people of Vrhpolje." If you just let me know

24 when you've found it. Yes. The --

25 A. I've found it.

Page 5546

1 Q. You've found it.

2 "The exclusive blame lies with the hodza Emir Sinanovic. I think

3 that probably is Sinanovic, but I'm not sure that's -- I think something

4 may have been left out. Maybe not. Is that the name -- do you know the

5 name of the hodza, Judge?

6 A. There's a mistake here.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. The hodza's name was Emir Seferovic. He was a religious official

9 in the village of Vrhpolje.

10 Q. And then it gives a list of names and goes on to say: "We are

11 broadcasting this information on the basis of statements of the innocent

12 inhabitants of Vrhpolje, against whom the above mentioned committed such a

13 heinous crime that they massacred their neighbours and relatives

14 last night. The above-mentioned individuals fled from their fellow

15 villagers in a cowardly and underhand way, leaving them to their fate.

16 The command of the Serbian armed forces."

17 And again, this is repeated. It's clearly repeated over and over

18 again.

19 Now, Vrhpolje. From your investigations - and we're going to deal

20 with the exhumations that we've already touched on - was there resistance

21 in Vrhpolje by the Bosniaks and Croats?

22 A. Well, first of all, with regard to this male voice, I would like

23 to say that I heard this on the Serbian radio of Sanski Most several

24 times. On the day I was imprisoned, that was on the 27th, the 28th of

25 May, I can remember this announcement clearly because it was broadcast

Page 5547

1 several times in the course of the day and in the course of the following

2 day.

3 And also the policeman, the Serbian policemen, who took us out

4 from our cells, they -- they told us about this -- or rather, that the

5 hodza Emir Seferovic had killed two Bosniaks. These lies are terrible.

6 This is terrible propaganda. This man didn't kill anyone. He didn't cut

7 anyone's throat. And none of these people cut anyone's throat. These

8 people quite simply organised themselves and they didn't want to

9 surrender. They withdrew to a position above the village in order to

10 defend their village, to defend their houses. They didn't want to

11 surrender. They had infantry weapons on them. I think that all those

12 people died. They were all killed. Because Emir Seferovic, the hodza, he

13 was captured in a house in which he was hiding and he was imprisoned and

14 tortured, and later on he was killed in the prison of the public station

15 -- of the public security station in Sanski Most. And in Trnovo, he was

16 exhumed from a mass grave. Only Ifet Hukanovic remains alive. Said

17 Keranovic was killed. I exhumed his body. Arif Ceranic, I don't

18 know what happened to him. Senad Huskic, he was killed. His body wasn't

19 found. And I can't remember what happened to Mirzet Kadiric. I'll now

20 answer the question you have asked me.

21 As I have already said, in the village of Vrhpolje, a group of

22 Bosniaks, just one group of Bosniaks, didn't want to surrender. They

23 didn't want to surrender their weapons, but they defended their villages

24 and -- their village and their houses. This village is 100 per cent

25 Muslim, Bosniak. There are more than 500 houses in that village in over

Page 5548

1 3.000 inhabitants. These people mounted a resistance against the Serbian

2 army. And in the forest called Galaja, these people were surrounded by

3 the Serbian army. The units of the 6th Krajina Brigade were there and a

4 brigade from Petrovac -- from Bosanski Petrovac was there, and the Kljuc

5 brigade was there. And there was also a brigade from Prijedor. So

6 Hrustovo and Vrhpolje, these villages were totally surrounded. There may

7 have been 10.000 soldiers there with heavy artillery in the positions that

8 they occupied. They were at full combat readiness. And at that time

9 these people were -- at the time that this message was read over the

10 radio, these people were completely surrounded. But what did they succeed

11 in doing? They succeeded in -- and this was on the 2nd or the 3rd of

12 June. They succeeded in capturing Serbian officers and soldiers, 46 of

13 them. And this is how they saved their lives. So they were surrounded,

14 but they captured two commanders of a battalion and their assistants and a

15 doctor who was in the command staff of the 6th Krajina Brigade, and they

16 then requested an exchange. And through this officer, someone called --

17 there was someone called Brajic, an officer in the JNA, he was a major,

18 through him, they established contact with the command of the 6th Krajina

19 Brigade, Colonel Branko Basara, who had a forward command post in

20 Tramosnja, a Serbian village on the other side of the River Sana in

21 relation to the Vrhpolje village.

22 The commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade accepted to negotiate.

23 This was Branko Basara. The representative of the people from the village

24 of the Vrhpolje went to negotiations together with commander Brajic. He

25 went to the staff of the 6th Krajina Brigade in Tramosnja, and he spent

Page 5549

1 the night there with them.

2 Q. Judge, I --

3 A. And he managed to agree on --

4 Q. Sorry. Can I -- I don't want the full account because we're going

5 to hear evidence from people who were involved. But I just want a brief

6 summary of those events, if you don't mind. So we don't need all the

7 details. All I'm concerned about --

8 A. [In English] Okay.

9 Q. What happened to the resistors from Vrhpolje?

10 A. [Interpretation] This group which participated in capturing these

11 Serbian soldiers and officers, by means of these negotiations, they

12 managed to agree that they should be transferred to Bihac with the help of

13 UNPROFOR. They surrendered their arms. And with UNPROFOR's help, buses

14 were provided for them and it was made possible for them to go to Bihac.

15 But all the others who remained in the forest and around the village and

16 in the village, these people were all killed. There is information on

17 this.

18 Q. All right. Thank you.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's all I ask about this document.

20 I think probably it ought to be exhibited together, because it's all part

21 of the tapes. So the -- I gave an exhibit number yesterday to -- P785. So

22 if the second transcript could be 7 --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No. The last one was 784.

24 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. In that case, could it be -- the first

25 transcript 784.1 and the second transcript we've just looked at 784.2.

Page 5550


2 MS. KORNER: Thank you. And can I then go finally on the

3 documents you produced before we deal with the exhumations -- Your

4 Honours, these are in the big bundle. The first -- the translations begin

5 with the number L0062786. And it's -- it's an official note signed by the

6 judge. It's the first document. And then the second document is a list

7 of names. The B/C/S version is 00998024 and 025.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The -- L0062786.

9 MS. KORNER: It says "official note." And it's signed

10 investigating judge Adil Draganovic.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

12 MS. KORNER: It should be probably halfway through the bigger

13 bundle. No. It's the third -- in the big bundle that had all these lists

14 of numbers, it's the third document.

15 Can I just -- before we give it to the witness, could I just have

16 a look. Yes. And if you could just give us back the copy of the

17 document. No. No. I think it's simpler if you give me the bundle you've

18 got, please, Madam Registrar. It's not this one though. That's an

19 exhumation report.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I can put the English up for the moment

22 on the ELMO.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I can't find these documents.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not the only one. I have here a document

Page 5551

1 which says "Record on the investigation, exhumation of bodies of Bosniaks

2 from mass graves."

3 MS. KORNER: No. No.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is not it, obviously.

5 The only one with an "L," Ms. Korner, is --

6 MS. KORNER: It was disclosed to the Defence shortly before the

7 translation -- shortly before the judge began testifying. So it was the

8 last bunch of translations. But it's certainly in -- because your -- the

9 registrar has produced it, so Your Honours must have it somewhere.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It may be here, yes.

11 MS. KORNER: But as I say, from now on we're only going to hand

12 out the documents as we come to them after this witness.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't seem to have it, Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: Can I just simply ask Your Honours to -- if you look

15 at it on the ELMO. It's quite a short document.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly. Certainly.

17 MS. KORNER: No image on the screen.

18 Yes. Thank you.

19 Q. Now, Judge, this is a document, I think, signed by you as an

20 investigating judge; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. A list found in the Sanski Most health centre in December 1995, a

23 list of civilians from Sanski Most who were killed in the transport of

24 detainees to the Manjaca camp and were then sent back to Sanski Most by

25 the same vehicle. "I hereby conclude that several individuals sent back

Page 5552

1 in the same group had been alive according to statements of surviving

2 eyewitnesses in the Manjaca camp." And, "it is hereby concluded

3 examination was carried out by Serbian doctors." And it's a note. And

4 then you list on the next page -- if we could just turn that over please,

5 usher -- on the next page, the names of the various individuals. And

6 examination is carried out by a medical committee.

7 Very shortly, was this a list of names of people who suffocated on

8 the way to Manjaca?

9 A. Yes. It's a list of people who suffocated while they were being

10 transported. They'd been taken from Betonirka in Sanski Most in a lorry.

11 But this is not the complete number. It's not just 20 people, there were

12 other people who remained alive and were returned. And these people have

13 not been included in the list.

14 MS. KORNER: Right. Your Honours, may that then be made

15 Prosecutor's Exhibit P785.

16 And then he final document, and I imagine we're going to have the

17 same problem. It's a huge document, Your Honour. It's a list of names.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] P785.

19 MS. KORNER: And it's -- the last exhibit is P785. This one is

20 the translation. And only a few of the actual documents have been

21 translated, just to -- or rather, not all -- well, maybe actually all the

22 names. I doubt it. But it's L0062909. It's in the same bundle. It's a

23 chart of names in English, and then there's the B/C/S version.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: What is this document exactly?

25 MS. KORNER: It's a list of people --

Page 5553

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Who were detained.

2 MS. KORNER: -- who were detained in Manjaca.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it a translation of the document that we saw

4 yesterday that you --


6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- asked questions to the witness about?

7 MS. KORNER: No. It's a different document. That was the book

8 that was kept.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

10 MS. KORNER: And this is some kind of official list.

11 If Your Honours -- it's being put up on the ELMO again.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner. I -- I have the English version of

13 the document.

14 MS. KORNER: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: With the draft translation number L0062909.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes. And can --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I also have dug up the -- what seems to be a

18 photocopy of the original.

19 MS. KORNER: That's right. And then there are two --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is handwritten.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes. That's right. And there are two further

22 documents enclosing further lists --


24 MS. KORNER: -- in this bundle, a receipt which is fully

25 translated, 03046723.

Page 5554


2 MS. KORNER: And then a draft translation, I think it must be the

3 same document. No, it's a separate document. It doesn't have a

4 number on it, unfortunately -- but dealing with the same thing. It's

5 headed -- one is dated -- both are dated the 23rd of August. But one has

6 got a number 11-14-S1 and the other's 11-15-S1. And then there's a whole

7 list of names.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: There are two lists of names.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes, exactly.

10 And Mr. Ackerman is on his feet.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Sorry I didn't recognise you

12 before.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all right. I'm a patient man.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I was looking at the -- at the documents, trying to

15 see --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have --


18 MR. ACKERMAN: -- this list in both English and B/C/S.


20 MR. ACKERMAN: It was described by Ms. Korner as an official list.


22 MR. ACKERMAN: If I look at the B/C/S, there is absolutely nothing

23 on that list --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I -- there is a first two lines which are illegible.

25 I can't distinguish anything of the letters there. And perhaps -- in

Page 5555

1 fact, I was going to -- I did not interrupt Ms. Korner because she was

2 proceeding to explain some of the documents. But actually, I intended to

3 ask her to put questions to the witness precisely on the origin of these

4 documents, because presumably these are documents which he furnished to

5 the Prosecution. So he should be in a position.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, you have anticipated my concern, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly --

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I would object --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, it's not your concern only. It's also our

10 concern because if these are put to us as official document, we will

11 obviously require to know what kind.

12 MS. KORNER: We're trying to -- I was trying to identify them.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's why I didn't interrupt you. I didn't

14 ask you -- but I still do have a little bit of a problem, Ms. Korner. The

15 two other documents, receipts.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with the first one, the one which has a

18 number 11-14-S1.

19 MS. KORNER: 14. I think we'd better -- I don't think the witness

20 has got that yet. Perhaps he better have the -- the whole bundle.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What I would like to know is which of the lists that

22 we still have, supposedly, should accompany that receipt because I have a

23 list which starts with 00493223.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Another list which starts 00493314.

Page 5556

1 MS. KORNER: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Then another list which seems to be a photocopy of

3 an original, 00493210.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Another list which is typed but in Serbo-Croat,

6 00493380; another list, 00493373; and another list, 00493732. And to be

7 frank with you, I am not in a position to make heads or tails of this.

8 MS. KORNER: I think if we could give the witness all the

9 documents, that whole bundle, and ask him to explain in turn --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

11 MS. KORNER: -- what each of these documents is.

12 Q. Can we start, Judge, please, with the first handwritten rather bad

13 photocopied list. Can you tell us what that is?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Because we have a multitude of lists --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know. But we are --

18 MR. ACKERMAN: The record -- well, there's something -- we have to

19 figure out some way so the record understands what we're talking about.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I was going to butt in.

21 This is supposedly -- Ms. Korner, just for the record, am I right

22 in assuming that you are referring to what appears on the face of it to be

23 the photocopy of the original to which draft document -- draft translation

24 L0062909 refers?

25 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

Page 5557


2 MS. KORNER: And the number -- although it doesn't appear on

3 the --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't appear.

5 MS. KORNER: But if one looks at the numbering on the B/C/S

6 version.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a number on the second page.

8 MS. KORNER: There's a number on the second page, 00493 --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: 538, or 6 --

10 MS. KORNER: No, 538.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: 538.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes.

13 Q. All right. Judge, can you just tell us, that document, what is

14 it?

15 A. Well, since there are quite a few lists, I would like to ask you

16 for a little bit of patience while I find my way in all these documents.

17 All these documents are quite clear to me, because these are the documents

18 that I submitted to the investigators.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Take your time, Judge, because this is important.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the originals of these

21 documents exist in Sanski Most. These are the lists of the citizens of

22 the Sanski Most municipality -- some of the citizens of that municipality

23 of Bosniak or Muslim ethnic background, and Croats.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes -- [Microphone not activated]

Page 5558

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone, Ms. Korner.

3 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman -- I understand what Mr. Ackerman is

4 saying, but I'm going to get him to go through each document. But at the

5 moment, let him give his answer.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But let's see what Mr. Ackerman has to say.

7 Maybe he's coming up with something new.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: The problem, Your Honour, is we are making a record

9 here which somebody is probably going to have to deal with some day. And

10 for a witness to say, "These are the lists," we have no idea what's in

11 front of him, we have no idea what he's talking about when he says these

12 are the lists. Can I assume that he has every list that is in this

13 bundle?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I intend to deal with this document by

15 document.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's what I'm hoping the witness can do.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: And he was asked to, but then he's not doing it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So please -- let's do it bit by bit, Ms. Korner.

20 Make sure -- I want to make sure, Judge, that you have in front of you a

21 document which is handwritten, a very bad photocopy --

22 MS. KORNER: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- In -- at the top. It -- the -- on the second

24 page --

25 MS. KORNER: He's holding it. Your Honour, he is.

Page 5559

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But my eyesight is not that good, Ms. Korner.

2 I can't distinguish the letters from here. Make sure that on the second

3 page, at the top right corner, there is stamped the following numbers,

4 00493538.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's there.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I would like you to restrict yourself for the

7 time being on this document only and tell us the origin of this document.

8 Ms. Korner put it to us that this is an official document, so perhaps you

9 should be in a position now to explain the origin of this document and why

10 we should consider it to be a photocopy of an official document. In other

11 words, do you have information as to who drew up this document, what was

12 the purpose of drawing up -- for drawing up this document, where was it

13 preserved? This kind of information is what we require from you. Details

14 as to the individuals are not necessary for the time being.

15 Are you happy with that, Mr. Ackerman? I think that's the way we

16 need to proceed.

17 Ms. Korner is smiling, so --

18 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MS. KORNER: I'm just wondering why we started this exercise in

21 the first place. But however, now I've started, I better finish.

22 Q. Judge --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please. He's in your hands, Ms. Korner.

24 Thank you.


Page 5560

1 Q. Judge, you've heard the question. That first document, can you

2 tell us what it is?

3 A. Yes, I heard the question. This document bearing the number that

4 you just mentioned comes from the public security station in Sanski Most.

5 This is a list of persons who were arrested of Bosniak, Muslim, and Croat

6 ethnic background from the territory of the municipality of Sanski Most.

7 I don't know who made this list, but its source is the criminal

8 investigations division of the public security station of Sanski Most or

9 the state security sector, because they carried out the investigations or,

10 rather, the interrogation of these persons. Here you can see the name of

11 each person, their place of birth, the ID card, the number of their ID

12 card, and the time when they were arrested. And in the last column, next

13 to some names, there is a note "released" or "allowed to go home." That

14 means that after the interrogation, that person was allowed to go home.

15 Next to some names, there is a note -- just a moment. It says "detention

16 M." That means detention or detained in Manjaca. And next to some names,

17 there are no notes contained in -- contained in this column, so I'm unable

18 to say whether these persons were in fact released or whether they went to

19 Manjaca. But some of the names, I do recognise. I remember that they

20 were in fact in Manjaca.

21 Q. In fact -- can we just deal with one on the first page of our

22 translation, number 14 --

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I think that is no foundation at

24 all. I think he has no idea. He has said, for instance, that it was --

25 may have been -- doesn't know who prepared it. He thinks it might have

Page 5561

1 been the public security section. It might have been the state security

2 sector. He's speculating as to what the list is beyond, you know, what

3 one might conclude from just looking at the columns in it. I think -- I

4 think he simply doesn't know. This was just a document that was

5 apparently found lying around somewhere. He hasn't indicated to you that

6 he's ever established who wrote the document, when it was written --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No. In fact he said that he doesn't know.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. So I think referring to names on it and

9 having him talk about names on it is inappropriate, and I ask that it not

10 be admitted.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But if he does know, then obviously he should, not

12 entering into much detail.

13 What I am querying at this point in time is the incorrect

14 translation because he -- he said that where you have "DM" means "detained

15 in Manjaca."

16 MS. KORNER: It's been missed off the translation.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And in the translation, it's been completely missed

18 off. It seems to be translated to "remanded in custody."

19 MS. KORNER: No. If we take the first one on our list that has

20 the "M" on the original, Karabeg Rasim.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

22 MS. KORNER: I think there's something --

23 Q. I'm sorry, Judge. Can you tell us, after the name Rasim Karabeg

24 on that first page, what's the word there?

25 A. Karabeg Rasim, it says, "detention M," or "remanded in custody M."

Page 5562

1 I can tell you all about Karabeg Rasim, whether I know -- knew him

2 or --

3 Q. Don't worry. We're not on that point yet. I know you can.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it doesn't say "M." Clearly, the

5 translator didn't realise what the --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, obviously. But the witness is telling us that

7 "M" means Manjaca.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes, absolutely. But the translation is not wrong.

9 It's a way of saying, "detained, remanded in custody" is what you say, in

10 England, anyhow. So it's not a wrong translation. It's just omitted the

11 "M," but the witness has explained that to us.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And Judge, may I ask you what "K" means? For

13 example, if you look at the second page, there -- in the last column, is

14 "pristen kuci." I don't know because I can't read the handwriting.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Ismet Focak, it says here,

16 "allowed to go K." That person was brought to the Manjaca camp and he was

17 the first person to be allowed to go home from Manjaca to Sanski Most a

18 few days after he had been brought to the Manjaca camp. And he's right

19 now in Sweden.

20 Have I made myself clear?. I mean, is what I'm saying clear?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes. More or less.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in relation to the objection --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. In relation to the objection made by

25 Mr. Ackerman, Your Honour, this is a document found in the -- the SJB or

Page 5563

1 whatever -- public security station in Sanski Most. It contains a list of

2 names which this witness can testify to his own knowledge that he knows

3 them, and he can go through as many examples as you like --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But is it relevant?

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it is relevant -- well, it's relevant to

6 this extent. It's one of the allegations, is that the wholesale

7 imprisonment of the non-Serb populations in various areas, in detention

8 camps, noncombatants and the like. Some of the witnesses that Your

9 Honours are going to be hearing about appear -- from, appear on this list.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's do it this way, because we definitely -- I

11 definitely can't allow the testimony of the judge to go on to the extent

12 of going through this list.

13 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- one by one. What we need to establish is whether

15 he is in a position, having a look at this list, to tell us that he can

16 confirm, for example, that as far as the names of individuals that

17 according to this list were remanded -- were sent to or detained in

18 Manjaca, whether he is in a position to confirm this, having a look at --

19 at the names. But I don't want details with regard to any one of them. I

20 mean, it's not necessary.

21 MS. KORNER: No.

22 Q. All right, Judge. You heard --

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I take it then from your ruling that

24 you are not agreeing that this is an official list --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I --

Page 5564

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Permitting him --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I would be deciding the matter -- the question of

3 probative value --


5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- at a stage when I shouldn't be deciding it.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree with that. I agree with that. And

7 that's --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, for -- for the time being and until we come

9 to the very end of this trial, any document that is presented to me, even

10 if it has the stamp of the most -- from the most reliable source, I will

11 still not -- not dare say, "Yes, I'm giving it probative value. Yes, I

12 believe it to be official." I will decide that at the right moment.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I just want to make it clear that my objection is

14 to the characterisation by Ms. Korner of this as an official list.


16 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think there is no such showing -- I have no

17 problem with the witness basically using it as an aide-memoire to

18 basically remind him of the names of people who he knows about.

19 MS. KORNER: No.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: From that standpoint, I have no problem.

21 MS. KORNER: All right. I withdraw "official." I mean, I was

22 trying to describe it, and I knew where it came from.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously.

24 MS. KORNER: But I certainly say this is a lot more than an

25 aide-memoire. However, this list -- or whoever compiled it, it was found

Page 5565

1 on the premises of --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that he explained.

3 MS. KORNER: -- the police station. And it contains a list of

4 names which this witness -- it's not an aide-memoire. It's nothing of the

5 sort. If it was an aide-memoire, it doesn't become an exhibit. But I'm

6 asking that it be exhibited.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, you have before you no evidence

8 whatsoever that it's accurate, that what this says happens in fact

9 happened. You have no evidence of that it all, none, zero. There's no

10 evidence that the person who wrote this had any knowledge of what was

11 going on.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But that's a submission -- that's a

13 submission, Mr. Ackerman. I mean, it's a statement that you are making

14 which would ultimately be part of our deliberations. When we come to the

15 stage of weighing the various bits and pieces of evidence that would have

16 been brought before -- before this Trial Chamber, including this document,

17 we are going to weigh -- we are giving -- going to give due consideration

18 first to the allegation of the Prosecution that this is an official

19 document, and we will have to decide whether to give it that -- grant it

20 that characteristic -- that attribute.

21 And secondly, considering the testimony -- the evidence of the

22 witness, what weight to give to this document. Again, at this point in

23 time, this debate actually becomes rather -- not exactly useless but

24 almost. I mean, just let the witness tell us what he knows about this

25 document, if he knows anything about it, and then we will decide later on

Page 5566

1 what weight to give to it.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I mean, it's just -- I don't know how to express

3 it. If you look at it, Your Honour, it doesn't -- there is no basis upon

4 which anyone can conclude that it has any validity at all. It doesn't

5 have any dates on it.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Nothing. But this is why --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: It says he was arrested at a certain time. But

8 when? What year?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This is why -- this is why actually I -- I

10 know, it's only the time of arrest, it says. But this is why I asked

11 Ms. Korner to put the question to the witness to go have a quick look at

12 this document. I suppose that he can only be useful to this Trial Chamber

13 insofar as the persons indicated as having been detained in Manjaca are

14 concerned, unless he is in a position to confirm also that, for example --

15 I don't know, but Muharem Botic, son of Sakib, from Prijedor, was at one

16 time arrested and then released, which I would find it almost incredible

17 and almost very difficult to -- to digest if he were to go through this

18 whole list and tell me that he knows each and every one of them, you know,

19 I mean ...

20 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour, that's the problem. If this

21 objection is going to be made -- and I must say, of all the documents that

22 objection has been taken to, this is the last one that I expected, because

23 we've had other documents go in with far less provenance than this one --

24 then I will have to go through every single name with this witness if Your

25 Honours are going to take the view that this -- that the probative value

Page 5567

1 of this document rests on the establishing that the witness knew these

2 people and what he can say about them.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. No. That's -- don't misunderstand me. Let's

4 take it as we should. You are tendering a document in evidence.

5 MS. KORNER: I am. Well, I'm attempted to.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Describing this document as an official document.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes. I take that back. I take it back, Your Honour.

8 I wish I'd never used the expression.


10 MS. KORNER: I don't suggest it's anything more than a document

11 found in the station, in the police station.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll leave it about that and forget

13 about the officiality of the document.

14 MS. KORNER: Absolutely.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's proceed from there.

16 MS. KORNER: But probative value, that is a different matter.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, it is a different matter.

18 MS. KORNER: And therefore, if this witness can say, particularly

19 with the ones related to Manjaca, "I know that they were there because I

20 saw them there and I knew them." He was about to tell us something about

21 Rasim Karabeg, I think. But Your Honour, in my view, it is an

22 unnecessary, time-wasting thing.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. I don't want to do -- to go through that

24 exercise.

25 MS. KORNER: All right.

Page 5568

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I just want the witness to have a look at this

2 document and to tell what you say he knows about it.

3 MS. KORNER: He already has.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Which he has.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, the next question is this, since the question

7 of whether there is any indication at all as to the veracity or

8 correctness of the contents -- of the details contained in this

9 document-- the question I am putting to the witness is a very simple one,

10 I suppose: Have a quick look at these names without going into the

11 details with regard to anyone in particular. Are you in a position to

12 illuminate this ignorant Trial Chamber as to whether it should give any

13 probative value to this document at all, from -- based on what you can

14 tell us? Because this is -- you are the only person so far to come

15 forward and give evidence on this document. So if you are in a position

16 to help us, be in a position later on to decide what value to give -- you

17 are a judge, after all. You know what I am talking about. I mean, we

18 will -- we will need at some point in time later on to decide on this

19 document together with others, and we will look back to your evidence --

20 at your evidence, and on the basis of your evidence, should be in a

21 position to say, "This document has some value. This document has no

22 value." So it's in your hands. But no details with regard to

23 individuals, because otherwise we'll never finish.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I want to

25 talk about these documents. I claim that these lists are official

Page 5569

1 documents because these documents stem from the processing of the persons

2 that are listed here, the arrested Bosniaks and Muslims. This specific

3 document that we are discussing right now is a list of just a certain

4 number of persons, mostly persons that I know. Because these are the

5 people who lived in my street in Sanski Most, my neighbours, my friends.

6 You know who your neighbours are, so I also know who these people are. I

7 know that some of these people were with me on the truck as we went to the

8 Manjaca camp, and these are the people listed here. This is a document

9 from an original binder in the public security station in Sanski Most

10 of -- made by the service that arrested these people and made these lists,

11 and there are also notes made by the inspectors that I know who made this

12 list and all the other lists, because I -- because I recognise their

13 handwriting, the handwriting of those inspectors, and I know those

14 inspectors personally because I was a participant in all this.

15 The original binders are in Sanski Most. They are in their

16 original state. They had been seized from the police station in Sanski

17 Most which we called the public security station. So I'm really quite

18 amazed to hear that somebody may call this document anything but an

19 official document. I'm trying to help you and to explain to you what this

20 note in the last column means because there are some names where no note

21 is present, yet these people were taken to the Manjaca camp. I'm not

22 going to now mention any names. That's all I had to say.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

24 Mr. Ackerman.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think it's just getting ridiculous

Page 5570

1 at this time point. "I know these people because these are people from

2 where I lived, my street, my neighbours." Your Honour, look at the list:

3 Prijedor, Prijedor, Trnovo, Bosanski Krupa, Trnovo.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's place of birth.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry. You're right, it is. I guess all

6 these people lived on his street. I'm sorry.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, in the light of that explanation, perhaps --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can stop there for the time being and

9 have a break, Ms. Korner.

10 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman might like to reconsider his objection.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, we'll give you a break and take one ourselves

12 as well. Thirty minutes.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner. Please proceed to the next set of

16 documents.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think I'd better just finish this one off.

18 As I understand -- I've spoken to Mr. Ackerman and I think the

19 objection is withdrawn. No?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: No, it's not withdrawn. It is well stated for the

21 record, except for the part where I didn't know what I was talking about,

22 and that part I withdraw. But the objection stands, Your Honour. And I

23 think we've completed your ruling on it, and we go from here.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's how I understood it to be as well.

25 MS. KORNER: Well, I think, Your Honour, then I have to ask, is --

Page 5571

1 I'm going ask for the admission of this document and -- as an exhibit, and

2 I'm also going to ask if Your Honours require further information as to

3 its authenticity, if you like, and the fact that this witness can

4 certainly talk about other documents -- other names on this list, because

5 you've heard his explanation --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: With regard to lists of persons detained in Manjaca,

7 Ms. Korner, there may be some persons detained there that feature in the

8 indictment. And if the names appear here and the witness is in a position

9 to give us information -- but from what I gather, the only thing that he

10 can say is that -- I don't know, but Rasim Karabeg was detained in

11 Manjaca. Correct. That's about it. But, otherwise, if you plan to prove

12 that Rasim Karabeg was detained in Manjaca on the basis of this

13 document, I don't see why we should proceed any further. You know, I

14 mean ...

15 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I think then I'm only going to ask

16 one other -- I see Madam Fauveau is on her feet.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But --

18 MS. KORNER: I'm only going to say the only other question I'm

19 going to ask about this is whether those people that were known to him,

20 any of them were combatants.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You can ask that question. Yes.

22 Yes. But let's see what Madam Fauveau has to say. Yes, please,

23 Madam.

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to say

25 that this list is not the list of persons detained in Manjaca.

Page 5572

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Of course not.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is the list of persons

3 detained in Sanski Most.


5 Q. All right. Before we move to the next list, please, Judge, of

6 the -- the names of the people mentioned on this list as having been

7 arrested, were any of them, to your knowledge, fighters, resisters?

8 A. Are you putting this question to me?

9 Q. I am. Sorry, Judge. Yes.

10 A. These people didn't participate in any kind of fighting. They

11 were civilians.

12 Q. Okay. Could we move to the next list.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we do that, this list is going to be given a

14 number, I presume?

15 MS. KORNER: Yes, please. It will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 786.

16 Q. I'm sorry, next, could we move not to the list, but there are two

17 documents which have, each of them, a kind of official stamp on them. One

18 is headed "Receipt," and one is headed -- well, it's to -- it's addressed

19 to the military investigations order. What it appears to be - and you'll

20 correct me if I'm wrong - is the letter or a copy sending the list to the

21 military investigation organs, then a receipt showing that delivery took

22 place on the 24th of August. You have those documents?

23 Have they been given to the witness?

24 A. No. I don't have those documents.

25 Q. Just take my copies for the moment. Thank you.

Page 5573

1 MS. KORNER: And I think maybe if we put the English version up on

2 the ELMO.

3 [Trial Chamber confers].

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Judge Taya is suggesting, and I agree with

5 her, that you refer the witness to the official number at the top right

6 corner of the document.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, the first has no stamp number. Draft

8 translation without -- that is the 11-15-S1. There is no ERN number.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: There is 00493317, and perhaps he can refer to that.

10 MS. KORNER: There is?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Bottom left corner.


13 MS. KORNER: Oh, I see. Down at the bottom. Yes.

14 Can we just put the English version up on the ELMO, please.

15 All right. Let's not put the English version up on the ELMO.

16 Q. Judge, these two documents, the letter to the military and the

17 receipt, where did they come from?

18 A. These documents came from the public security station in Sanski

19 Most, from the same files that I have already mentioned, so the files that

20 include these lists.

21 Q. All right.

22 MS. KORNER: Well, then, Your Honour, may those be made together,

23 because they go together, Prosecutor's Exhibit 787.1 for the document with

24 the number 00493317, and the second document will be 787.2, which is the

25 one 003046723.

Page 5574

1 Q. All right. Now, the list -- the remaining list, please. Can we

2 start with the one that has the number at the top 00493380. It's not

3 translated. Can you just tell us what the top sentence says -- first of

4 all, the heading.

5 A. "A list of persons who were captured during the war operations in

6 the territory of the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most."

7 Q. First of all, where did this document come from?

8 A. This document also came from the public security station in Sanski

9 Most. It came from the same files I have already mentioned.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, could I ask you to ask the witness with

11 regard to 787.1.

12 MS. KORNER: Mm-hm.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And this particular document that -- this list,

14 whether the stamp -- whether he recognises the official stamp or the copy

15 of the official stamp.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes.

17 Q. You'd better have it back again, then, because the B/C/S version

18 was removed.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: On 787.2, it's -- I mean, at least in the copy that

20 I have, you can barely see the words in --

21 MS. KORNER: Can I just confirm. That's 004933 --


23 MS. KORNER: 17.


25 MS. KORNER: I think I'm going to hand both letters back and ask

Page 5575

1 him to identify -- if he's able to identify the stamp.

2 Q. Judge, are you able to identify the -- the stamps that one sees on

3 those two letters, the one sending the list and the one receipting it?

4 A. Yes, I can identify them. This is a stamp from the public

5 security station in Sanski Most.

6 Q. And does that -- the stamp that appears on the document that we're

7 now looking at, the list of people as described captured during the war

8 operations, is that the same stamp or a different one?

9 A. It's the same stamp.

10 Q. Yes, thank you.

11 MS. KORNER: Okay. You can have those -- take the letters away

12 again.

13 Q. Just looking at that first page, do you recognise the names -- any

14 of the names on that first page?

15 A. I can recognise quite a few names here. There are people included

16 here who were suffocated in the -- in the lorry from Manjaca. I can

17 recognise their names.

18 Q. Right. Well, we can -- you needn't bother about that because

19 we've got the list that shows that. So we can just compare the two. All

20 right.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, this first page shows that, against some

22 of the names, there are some markings. I'd like to know whether the

23 document as found in the security -- public security records office

24 contained those markings already or whether these markings have been made

25 by witness or after the discovery of this document.

Page 5576


2 Q. Judge, you heard the question. Could you tell us, were the

3 markings on it when it was found?

4 A. These markings were on the document when it was found. So the

5 copy is a -- an exact copy of the original.

6 Q. Do you know any of the people against whom these markings are

7 made?

8 A. Yes, I do. For example, under number 37, Izet Mehic. He was a

9 policeman in the public security station, a retired policeman. He was a

10 Bosniak, and he suffocated in the -- in the transport.

11 Q. Are you able --

12 A. I know Kemo Talic, who was also suffocated in the lorry

13 transporting him. He is under number 42.

14 Q. Right. So those people are dead, obviously. All right. I won't

15 go through the rest, then.

16 Could we come to the next list --

17 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, could that be made Prosecutor's Exhibit

18 788.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, what do you mean by the next list?

20 MS. KORNER: About the number.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Because this first list seems to consist of

22 one page only. But what I have been given has got another -- one, two,

23 three, four, five, six pages.

24 MS. KORNER: No. It's all as you see from the number sequence.

25 It appears it ought to be one document. It runs from 80 through to 86.

Page 5577

1 But I'll confirm with the witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to, because -- let me explain what my

3 concerns are. In the second page, you again have a title with "spisak,"

4 presumably meaning a list. But the next line is not like the two lines in

5 the first page after the word "list." So that presumably means something

6 else, presumably, if I can understand it, people who have -- persons who

7 have been sent to Manjaca. And that finishes the page after, and there is

8 a list of 44 persons.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you have another list which starts from number

11 41. And we will require an explanation for that, why it starts at 41.

12 Then the next page, you have another list without a title again,

13 starting from number 1. At the bottom of the page, the last one is number

14 40, but the next page starts with number 81, finishes at 120 and continues

15 in the subsequent page with 129, ending with 139, and then there is a

16 handwritten note which I don't know what it means.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps these are the questions that you ought to

19 direct to witness so we have a clear picture, because otherwise I will not

20 understand anything.


22 Q. The next page in that bundle, Judge, is a list of what? What's it

23 headed?

24 A. "A list of people who have to be released from Manjaca."

25 Q. Right. Again, where does that come from?

Page 5578

1 A. This list comes from the public security station in Sanski Most.

2 It comes from the same file that I have already mentioned.

3 Q. All right. These documents are attached. When they were found -

4 and I'm not sure whether I asked you this - did you actually find them or

5 did somebody else find them?

6 A. I took these documents from the public security station in Sanski

7 Most.

8 Q. And were these documents attached in the way that they've been

9 attached? In other words, these lists which have a continuous sequence of

10 numbers at the top, the stamping, were they attached like this? Do you

11 remember?

12 A. I'm not sure that they were attached in this manner.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. But they were put in a certain order.

15 Q. All right. That's the list of people to be released from Manjaca.

16 The next document --

17 A. But please allow me to say another thing. This list of persons

18 consists of two pages, from number 1 up until number 42. There are 42

19 persons listed.


21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are two pages. On the first

22 page, it goes up to number 35 inclusive. On the second page, it's from

23 number 36, and it goes up until number 44.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct.


Page 5579

1 Q. Yes. And then the next page starts, as His Honour has pointed

2 out, with "41." But I think that what we're going to find is that the

3 pages are back to front, Your Honour, that 00493384 is the first page.


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

6 MS. KORNER: And that that is one -- it looks like it's one but --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. 3383 should have come -- 3383 and 3384 should

8 have been exchanged.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes, reversed.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Reversed, yes.


12 Q. There's no indication as to what this list is, Judge, but can you

13 assist?

14 A. This is a list, an official list, of people who were in Manjaca --

15 of some of the people who were in Manjaca. This list was made in Sanski

16 Most in the public security station, and it was taken to Manjaca.

17 Q. And can you look at the last page, please. There's handwritten

18 addition of two names and then a sentence at the bottom. What does that

19 say? Can you just read that out, and it will be translated.

20 A. "The people whose names have been circled weren't found in

21 Manjaca."

22 Q. And was that writing on it when you found the document, or did

23 somebody put that in? I mean, after you found it is all I mean.

24 A. This was on the document.

25 Q. Thank you. Then the next list --

Page 5580

1 MS. KORNER: Can I just ask Your Honour what the next list in Your

2 Honours' bundle is. I might as well just try and follow that. What the

3 number at the top is.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I have various lists, Ms. Korner. So you choose,

5 and we --

6 MS. KORNER: You'll follow.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll follow.


9 Q. Then could you take the one that is -- starts with the number

10 00493223. And the first name on that is --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Hromalic Muharem.

12 MS. KORNER: Hromalic Muharem.

13 Q. And again, is that a list running from 1 to 246? I mean, there

14 are 246 names on it.

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Do you know what that list is? Because there's nothing to

17 indicate -- there's no title to it. But from the names that are in it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And where he retrieved it from.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes.

20 Q. Perhaps -- I think can deal with it -- do all these documents,

21 Judge, come from the same CSB -- SJB file?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Is there anything to indicate what this list is from your own

24 knowledge of the names?

25 A. This is a list of people who were transported to Manjaca.

Page 5581

1 Q. Well, can I just ask you this, Judge: There are a number of

2 lists, and I'm not anxious to over -- put too many exhibits in which I

3 don't need to. In the remaining lists that we've got, some are

4 handwritten and there are typed ones, again without anything to indicate

5 what they are. Does it all refer -- do these all refer to prisoners

6 either transported to or present in Manjaca?

7 A. Yes, they do. In fact, all of these lists were made and processed

8 by inspectors who were -- were involved in questioning and who prepared

9 lists for Manjaca. I can recognise the handwriting on this document. The

10 number is 00493373.

11 Q. Let's just pause for a moment so that everybody can find it. It's

12 the one that's headed "Manjaca"; is that right? 21/07 to 24/07/1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you say you recognise the handwriting. Who is that?

15 A. This is the handwriting of the criminal investigations inspector

16 Dusan Zoric -- Dusko Zoric, who lives in Bijeljina right now. And he

17 worked in the police there. There are also the official notes that he

18 wrote. They are attached to this list.

19 MS. KORNER: Okay. Well, I -- Your Honour, I don't think I'm

20 going to put that -- it does seem to me that this is overdoing this, but

21 except for one more.

22 Q. Can you take the one that's headed "Pavilion," it looks like

23 "something" 4. It's got the number 00493732, and it's got a number of

24 handwritten annotations.

25 Do you know what this list refers to?

Page 5582

1 A. This is also a list of people who were arrested. And I think they

2 were taken to Manjaca.

3 Q. Do you know what, for example, the -- after the first name,

4 Dzafic, there is -- Emir, there is an "M" and then some further "M's" and

5 then under - I can't read - Emir Ilijaz, it looks like, a "K" has been

6 written. Do you know what that's meant to refer to?

7 A. I think that "M" stands for Manjaca.

8 Q. And "K"?

9 A. I think that it means the Krings Hall.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. But I'm not sure.

12 Q. Can we just go to the next page for a moment. After number 74,

13 Ibrahimovic, and Bosanski Krupa, something has been written? Can you read

14 that? Is it Nema?

15 A. It says: "No Zab," Z-a-b, and then there are some other letters

16 that I can't read. One of them is "S."

17 Q. Can we go down to number 85. A line's been put through his name

18 and something's been written there. What does that say? Can you just

19 read it out?

20 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the number?

21 Q. 85 on the list. It's the same page. The name has been crossed

22 out and there's been some writing put. Could you -- Judge, can you just

23 read out what the writing says.

24 A. It says here: "Released K earlier." This "K" could stand for the

25 B/C/S word "Kuci," home, and that's why he was crossed out.

Page 5583

1 Q. Yes, I see.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think I formally exhibited the

3 last list I referred to, which was the one with the numbers 00493223, did

4 I? No. Could that be made Prosecutor's Exhibit P789, and this list

5 Prosecutor's Exhibit P790. That's the one with all the writing on it.

6 And Your Honours, I don't propose to put in any more lists. I

7 think we're done the lists.

8 Q. Is there anything else you want to say about that document, Judge,

9 that you're -- the last one, Prosecutor's Exhibit P790?

10 A. No. I have nothing further to say.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Then if the list could be taken away from

12 you.

13 I want to turn now to the exhumations at the various areas that

14 were carried out under your direction. Now, can I ask you about -- just

15 very briefly to explain to Their Honours the procedures. And if -- I do

16 mean briefly. I think you first began carrying out exhumations in May of

17 1996; is that correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. In dealing with these exhumations, was that under your authority

20 as a judge?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were you assigned by the president of the cantonal court in

23 Bihac to manage the exhumations?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'm going to come to the various locations in a moment, but I

Page 5584

1 think you estimated that overall you personally had conducted exhumations

2 that resulted in the recovery of something in the region of 700 people.

3 A. Yes, that would be the approximate number.

4 Q. And are exhumations still continuing to this day?

5 A. Yes, exhumations are still carried out in the municipality of

6 Sanski Most. However, I worked on the exhumations in the course of 1996

7 and 1997. I was involved in some of the exhumations. And later on, other

8 judges took over, judges of the cantonal court in Bihac.

9 Q. And I think that all of these exhumations, in some form or other,

10 there was input from members of the Office of the Prosecutor.

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Now, as I said, can I just very briefly ask you to describe really

13 the process of not so much the exhumation itself but then the

14 identification of bodies recovered. Would an exhumation be carried out if

15 information was provided of, as it were, mass graves, more than one

16 person?

17 A. In the period that I just specified, as an investigating judge in

18 the Sanski Most municipality, I worked on the discovery of the locations

19 of the mass graves. It wasn't easy to identify the locations because

20 these graves were unmarked. They were, in effect, hidden or concealed.

21 They were located in areas that were hidden away, that were not very

22 prominent. I spent a lot of time trying to identify the locations of

23 these mass graves in the field with the police. And when I received the

24 information that a mass grave -- there might be a mass grave at a certain

25 location, I would then report to all the competent or relevant

Page 5585

1 authorities, the cantonal Ministry of the Interior in Bihac, the cantonal

2 Office of the Prosecutor in Bihac, the public prosecutor's office, and the

3 cantonal court in Bihac.

4 Q. All right. Can I stop you. I think, in fact, it may be simpler

5 to deal with this by looking at one of your reports. Can I --

6 MS. KORNER: Now, Your Honour, these were attached, and I hope

7 Your Honours and the Registry have got this. The first one I want to ask

8 the judge to look at is dated the 7th of May, 1996. It was Attachment 7

9 to the third statement made by the witness, and it's headed "Record of the

10 -- on the investigation and exhumation of bodies of Bosniaks from mass

11 graves by the bridge in Vrhpolje."

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, Madam Fauveau, do you have this

13 document? There's a translation number 01101517. And at some point in

14 time, it was marked also as an Attachment 7 to one of the statements of

15 the witness.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: It appears for some reason the only one I have is

17 called "Attachment 2." It may be that I'm not -- the only one I seem to

18 have is Attachment 2, and that's --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a 21-page document.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I've got one that is 63 pages.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No, that's another one.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't -- I don't know where -- I assume that I

23 have it somewhere. I just don't happen to have it in court.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But can we proceed?


Page 5586

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

2 Madam Fauveau?

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, we can

4 continue.

5 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

6 Q. Can we take this -- now, was this one of the first exhumations

7 that you carried out, Judge?

8 A. This was one of the first major exhumations that I carried out.

9 MS. KORNER: All right. Can you just give me a moment, Your

10 Honour.

11 [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, I think we've got a map

12 that's going to help on this --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MS. KORNER: Sorry.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, Ms. Korner, I'm trying to simplify this

16 particular evidence at this stage, try to give it some sense. May I

17 suggest to you, referring first to his statement to the Prosecution of the

18 3rd of July and 4th to 7th of -- 4th and 7th of July, where he gives a

19 list of the sites.

20 MS. KORNER: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: To go through that list first with the witness,

22 preferably with reference to a map, if you have one available, prepared.

23 And then we'll take it up from there, if that's agreeable with the two

24 Defence teams.

25 MS. KORNER: Can I just say, Your Honour, that we've actually got

Page 5587

1 a map which I haven't got in court, but I know it exists, which shows all

2 the exhumation sites. If I can leave the list until after the break --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Of course. You're free. I was just suggest.

4 MS. KORNER: No. I omitted to bring it, but we do have a map.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, no problem.

6 MS. KORNER: Can you just excuse me for a minute, Your Honour.

7 We'll come back to the various places. If we can just deal with

8 the procedures at this stage.

9 And Your Honour, I should say I know there is no dispute about any

10 of this because we've discussed it, but I still think it's important -- we

11 discussed it, I think, before Your Honours came into the case that

12 exhumations are not the subject of dispute. But nonetheless, I

13 think it's important that you understand the operation as such.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's my recollection - and I haven't

16 looked at the transcript for a while - but it's my recollection that what

17 we had basically offered and I think was accepted by the Prosecutor at the

18 recommendation of Judge Hunt, as I recall, was that they would bring an

19 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor or someone of that nature

20 with regard to these exhumations and just say, "I have looked at all of

21 the records regarding exhumations and I have prepared this list of persons

22 who have been identified," and that we would not demand anything beyond

23 that. And so that should save a lot of time. I don't know what we're

24 doing today, and it may be that there is a purpose in this, and if there

25 is, I don't mind it going forward.

Page 5588

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, do you have anything to state?

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, nothing, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's regulate, Your Honour --

4 MS. KORNER: Microphone.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It is on.

6 MS. KORNER: I was saying "microphone" to my learned friends.

7 Your Honour, absolutely, and I have no intention because the

8 investigator who's going to testify, Mr. Sabir [phoen], is going to cover

9 the whole area. But nonetheless, I think in order to understand the

10 procedure and also to -- the purpose of me taking the witness through it

11 today is to look at the age and sex of some of the bodies recovered and

12 also to tie up some of the incidents on the indictment.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But do you need the witness to testify on that? If

14 there is a document -- and I see here, for example, Attachment 7. I also

15 see Attachment 8. There is a very long attachment in B/C/S from the

16 medical/legal --

17 MS. KORNER: That's not -- only very little of that has been

18 translated.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. But I suppose that once these

20 documents are admitted in evidence and there is no question arising as to

21 the contents, I mean, we can come to a very simple conclusion as to

22 whether we are talking of predominantly males or predominantly females. I

23 mean, I think we are in a position to distinguish --

24 MS. KORNER: I think --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the gender from the name.

Page 5589

1 MS. KORNER: But you're not in a position -- not necessarily. And

2 you're not in a position to look at the age without --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Definitely. Okay. I will not interfere --

4 MS. KORNER: I'm not going to spend -- Your Honour, I propose to

5 deal with this fairly simply.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 MS. KORNER: And simply produce the other reports, if necessity

8 requires.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go -- proceed in the best manner you think --

10 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- suits your case, because your case is your case

12 and not ours.

13 MS. KORNER: I'm tempted to say something about other cases in

14 this Tribunal on that basis, Your Honour.

15 Q. Judge, I can just ask you to deal fairly simply. This is the

16 report that you prepared on the exhumation conducted at the Vrhpolje

17 bridge; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Which actually came to light because the bridge -- the demolished

20 bridge was about to be rebuilt?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. If we look at the list of persons present at various stages during

23 the exhumation process, we can see you as the first and then as number 3,

24 a gentleman who -- Mr. John Gerns, expert in forensic medicine and mass

25 graves on behalf of the International Tribunal in The Hague. And then all

Page 5590

1 the other persons, photographers, forensic anthropologists and the like

2 who are necessary for this sort of operation. Is that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. How the operation is then carried out is then described in page

5 2. And apparently, at the bottom of the page, we can see that the

6 presence of the bodies was causing an unpleasant smell.

7 Now, can we come, please, to page number 3, where we see that on

8 the 9th of May, 1996, the excavation uncovered a mass grave which was then

9 given a code, Vrhpolje bridge, "VM1."

10 Going down the page, the bodies all lying in the same direction,

11 and it was established that the bodies were in civilian clothes. In

12 total, 12 bodies. And each part of the process, I think, was filmed and

13 photographed.

14 If you go, please, to the next page, or our page 4, on the same

15 day, a second grave was recovered or was found which was given the

16 code "VM2" and 13 bodies were found in that grave.

17 And if we come down to the middle of the page, sketching and

18 photographing were then undertaken. It was established that the upper

19 section of the grave contained a large quantity of civilian clothes,

20 jumpers, jackets, T-shirts, overcoats, and a suitcase.

21 After the bodies are removed, were they taken to the Krings Hall

22 in Sanski Most and post-mortem examinations were carried out? Is that

23 correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Now, there's then a description of the bodies and their injuries,

Page 5591

1 what the forensic medical examinations and post-mortems resulted in. May

2 we just take some examples.

3 The first body was the body of a male, and his name was given,

4 Irfan Begic, his identity established on the basis of a document that was

5 in a leather wallet found with the body. And after describing his

6 clothing and the rest, the injuries show, in best medicalese, "projectile

7 entry point in the occi " -- I've always got problems with this word --

8 yes, I can't do this -- "region of the head on the left-hand side and exit

9 point through the mouth. Death came about violently as a result of a

10 projectile from a firearm. No other firearm injuries on the remaining

11 parts of body." I just wonder why you can't simply say the man was shot.

12 But that's right.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, again, may I suggest to you this

14 document, this particular document, according to what I have here,

15 purports to be one which has been drawn up and signed and stamped by the

16 witness himself.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It speaks for itself.

19 MS. KORNER: I know it does, Your Honour. And --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps you could proceed by asking him whether

21 he confirms this document is one drawn up by himself.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether it's a faithful document. And then proceed

24 to ask him any particular question that is important for your case or

25 which you consider important for your case. But I think we can avoid

Page 5592

1 having to go through the whole list of --

2 MS. KORNER: I'm not going to. Your Honour, I took the first as

3 an example.


5 MS. KORNER: Because you can see it. What I'm going to do is

6 concentrate now on the persons that on any showing couldn't come into a

7 category. I mean, they're all civilians -- but as a combatant or the

8 like.

9 Q. Judge, you've heard the question. Do you confirm this is your

10 report and it was an accurate report drawn up based on the findings that

11 were made?

12 A. This is a report that I made in full, and it confirms all that I

13 had found and established in the course of the exhumation that I carried

14 out. In addition -- or attached to this report, there are also some

15 sketches made and photo files, as well as the findings of the forensic

16 experts pertaining to the examination of the bodies, and also the reports

17 or records on the identification. Let me just note here that two

18 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal in

19 The Hague were present there. In fact, only one, that is, the gentleman

20 that you mentioned, Mr. John Gerns, and the other gentleman who was an

21 anthropologist, he was there on behalf of an international organisation,

22 Doctors Without Frontiers. And he helped the expert team to carry out

23 their work.

24 Q. Okay. Can we just --

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour.

Page 5593

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Ms. Korner has testified a bit by telling you that

3 the people on this list are all civilians. I don't think the document has

4 any evidence to prove that, and I don't think there's been any evidence

5 before you to prove that, that it's just a representation by Ms. Korner.

6 Just because they aren't wearing uniforms when they're found in a grave

7 doesn't mean that they weren't involved in combat or in resistance

8 activities in one form or another. Sometimes people doing that don't wear

9 uniforms.

10 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, Your Honour, that's exactly the

11 reason why I'm going to pick out some of these.

12 Q. But first, can we go to number 7, please, the -- the body marked

13 "VM1/7," just to deal with this point that Mr. Ackerman is raising. He

14 was unidentified but was a male aged between 14 and 18. And this man or

15 boy -- young man was wearing blue jeans, and underneath the jeans, blue

16 trousers and blue synthetic swimming trunks. Suffered a violent death

17 through what is described as haemorrhaging in the thorax.

18 Can we move, then, please, to the bodies found in the second

19 grave.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I -- if that was represented as dealing with

21 my objection, I don't see how it does that. Many -- Your Honour will know

22 that many of the rebels fighting in various African countries are even as

23 young as 12 years old. So I don't think age has anything to do with

24 whether someone was a fighter or not.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, you may have noticed that the Chamber

Page 5594

1 has remained silent because, ultimately, whether they were civilian or not

2 does not depend on whether Ms. Korner believes that they were civilian or

3 not. I mean, it's something that has to be established -- will be given

4 its due importance as we go along.

5 MS. KORNER: I agree.

6 Q. Can we move, please, to the second grave site. That was the one

7 marked "VM2," number 13 on that list, the body. He was identified as a

8 man named Mumin Kljajic. Can you just tell us what that name is? My

9 pronunciation is really not very good on this. Number 13.

10 A. The man in question is Mumin Kljajic, son of Omer, born on the

11 8th of December, 1906.

12 Q. In --

13 A. I can't see very well.

14 Q. At the time -- were you -- those bodies that were identified, were

15 you able to establish that they were all killed in 1992?

16 A. I already stated this in my report. I stated that the expert team

17 participated in the examination, and the experts said that the bodies came

18 from the same period, the end of May 1992, the bodies in this mass grave.

19 And I also said in this report that civilians were in question because the

20 clothes they were wearing were civilian clothes.

21 Q. Yes. Don't worry about that. You've heard -- you've heard the

22 discussion.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there may or may not be a translation

24 problem. My -- we didn't hear it well. But we don't know whether the

25 date of birth of this Mumin Kljajic --

Page 5595

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 1906, he said.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: That's what the translation says, but I'm not sure

3 that's what he said.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what the document says.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Then it's correct.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. It doesn't say 8 December, if I remember

7 well. It's just --


9 Q. Sir, at the time -- sorry -- sir, at the time of his death, he

10 would have been aged 82.

11 Can we turn, please, to the next body, number 14, identified as

12 that of Resid Sljivar, son of Dout [phoen], born 18th of May, 1929. The

13 next body I want to look at, number 16, again identified, and appears to

14 be the son of the man at number 13, who was born in 1939. Number 18 on

15 your report, unidentified but guessed to be over 60; number 23, Esad

16 Adanovic, born 1939; and then finally on the 13th of May, 1996, a further

17 grave was found and excavated, and the first body was a man aged --

18 unidentified but aged about 65.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, that's all that I want to ask

20 about that report.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm familiar with - and you may be

23 also - the fertile octogenarian rule, but not its antecedent, the fertile

24 child rule. It appears that what Ms. Korner has told us that a person

25 born in 1939 is the son of a person born in 1929. I find that difficult

Page 5596

1 to accept.

2 MS. KORNER: He -- if one looks, Your Honour, at --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The person who is allegedly the father was the one

7 who was born allegedly on the 8th of December, 1906. So he would be 82,

8 and the other one would be 49 or something like that.

9 MS. KORNER: I don't find these interventions particularly

10 helpful.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But we're -- this gets us nowhere, in any case, so

12 let's forget the incident and move along, Ms. Korner. Nor do I find --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, they may not be helpful but the record

14 reflects things that I think are not correct, and I'm just trying to

15 clarify the record and that's all I'm doing. And what it says he says --

16 well, it says what it says at line 7. You can read it yourselves, page

17 65, line 7.

18 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please.

20 MS. KORNER: I said 1939. I'm sorry that my distinct -- not

21 1929. I didn't say "son of."

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, next question. If you have a next

23 question. And forget about the incident.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. The other thing I was going to say, I don't

25 find laughter from Defence counsels' benches particularly helpful.

Page 5597

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right there.

2 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, may that report be made

3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 791.

4 Your Honour, then I'm purely going to produce as exhibits, should

5 anything turn on them, the next -- there's a large medical document. I'm

6 not proposing to go through it -- which is Attachment 8 with a short

7 translation of part of it. And Attachment 9, as the judge rightly said,

8 this all relates to this particular exhumation of the sketches, and so on

9 and so forth.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, Attachment 8 consisting of two

11 documents, one pretty long and thick, the other one --

12 THE REGISTRAR: I do have Attachment 8.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And Attachment 9, the one with translation number

14 01106638. And there is the corresponding original -- photocopy of the

15 original with 00491617.

16 Correct me if I am wrong, Ms. Korner, I mean, but I think these

17 are the documents.

18 MS. KORNER: They are, Your Honour, yes.


20 MS. KORNER: Yes. And Your Honour, I'm simply going to ask that

21 they be produced, Attachment 9, as Prosecutor's Exhibit 79 -- oh, 8,

22 sorry, Prosecutor's Exhibit 792; Attachment 9, Prosecutor's Exhibit 793,

23 which are the sketches and photographs and the like.

24 And Your Honour, I'm just going to deal with the next record

25 produced by Judge Draganovic, which is dated the 19th of February, 1996,

Page 5598

1 and was Attachment 10, and deals with a different exhumation relating to

2 Sasina. These are all, may I say, areas specifically mentioned in the

3 indictment. And may that become Prosecutor's Exhibit 794.

4 The Attachment 11 is a report relating to the exhumation at

5 Kanjari village.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Kljevci.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes, it's in Kljevci.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Kanjari hamlet.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't need to go through that one.

10 That will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 795.

11 The next document is an attachment to the fourth statement,

12 Attachment 1. It's a report dated the 22nd of October, 1996. And I would

13 like the -- just to deal with a small portion of that. It deals with one

14 of the bigger massacres that took place.

15 Could the witness be handed that, please.

16 Q. Judge, is that a report you prepared in respect of a number of

17 exhumations that took place from a number of graves that were discovered?

18 A. I'm sorry. This document was made by Mr. Bajro Kulovac. Can I be

19 handed the report or document that I made myself? The exhumation report,

20 I mean.

21 Q. Yes. It's Attachment number 2. You're quite right. It's my

22 fault.

23 The first -- there were a number of graves, but the first one in

24 the village of Hrustovo in the -- in the hamlet of Kukavica. And was the

25 grave found in a field - looking at the third page now, Your Honour - 30

Page 5599

1 bodies were removed, including a large number of women and children.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this refers, to make it absolutely

3 clear, to the document that we looked at with the witness yesterday that

4 was produced with the photographs that we couldn't see at all.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

6 MS. KORNER: This is the exhumation relating -- that took place

7 afterwards.

8 Q. And again, can I just take you through, very briefly, some of the

9 bodies. Body number 3 was a male, identified as Smail Keranovic, born in

10 1926.

11 Could we go to the next one, body number 4.

12 A. Karanovic Smail.

13 Q. Smail, yes.

14 The next body, number 4, female, in fact identified as Djemka

15 Osmancevic, I think that must be --

16 A. Omanovic.

17 Q. Omanovic, born in 1934 --

18 A. Sorry, Djemka Omanovic, for the sake of the record.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you.

20 A. There's a mistake here.

21 Q. And the cause of death was a shot to the head.

22 Body number 5 was a woman, identified as Keranovic Muharema?

23 A. Muharema Keranovic, yes.

24 Q. All right. Shot in the throat, or the thorax. If I'm right,

25 that's the throat.

Page 5600

1 Body number 6, a woman, 55, Fatima Keranovic.

2 A. Keranovic.

3 Q. Keranovic. And there was -- her cause of death, if everyone

4 looks at the next page, was an injury to the head caused by a strong

5 impact of a blow.

6 Body number 7, unidentified infant, five to six months old.

7 Body number 8, female child, approximately six years old. Cause

8 of death to this child, a shot.

9 Body number 9, a woman, approximately 50.

10 Body number 10, a woman.

11 Body number 11, a child, approximately eight. Or we can tell

12 actually eight because this was Aldina Karanovic, daughter of Rufad.

13 Death caused by gunshot and partly by heavy blow.

14 A male, next one, born 1935.

15 Body 13, a female infant, six months old, another Merdanovic?

16 A. Husein Merdanovic.

17 Q. Body number 14, a female.

18 Body 15 --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I understood you yesterday that you will

20 have the witness coming over to testify -- two, actually, you mentioned

21 yesterday. So perhaps we could take this part of the document as -- as

22 read and --

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm simply dealing with this. Otherwise

24 we'll just have to get the witness to give all the ageings and whatever.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: If he confirms the -- this document as an accurate

Page 5601

1 and faithful representation of what he established as an investigating

2 judge, we can leave it at that.

3 Yes, Madam Fauveau. I'm sorry not to have recognised you before.

4 Please.

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

6 what the point of this exercise is, because I think that Ms. Korner should

7 be aware of the fact that this is a fact that is not contested. These

8 facts are not contested. I'm not talking about -- I'm talking about these

9 persons who were killed. And we informed Ms. Korner in a letter that this

10 fact -- these facts were not contested, and I think Mr. Ackerman has

11 agreed with this. So I don't understand why we are addressing this today.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And plus there is another -- and this is a court

13 presided over by three professional judges, no jury. And I think we

14 are -- you can take it from us -- take my word for it that these documents

15 will be read completely, entirely. So if we can avoid -- I know it's up

16 to you, Ms. Korner. But I don't think --

17 MS. KORNER: I take the point, Your Honour --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't really think we need to go through the

19 document body by body and --

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think I've made the point.

21 And to answer Madam Fauveau's question, as I understand -- as much

22 as I can glean, the Defence's case in this case is going to be that these

23 killings were killings that took place of people who resisted, who were

24 combatants, who were fighting against the Serbian army. Your Honour, this

25 evidence is designed -- I know in this particular case this couldn't be

Page 5602

1 suggested, but this is designed to rebut the Defence that these killings

2 were of people who were potential enemies of the Serbian army.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The objection concerns

5 these particular killings, but I just don't see why there should be an

6 objection for Mrs. Korner to move on to the other killings that have been

7 alleged. But these particular killings, I don't understand what the point

8 is -- what the point is of contesting a fact if it is debated later on

9 here.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I tend to agree with you, Madam Fauveau.

11 Let's proceed, Ms. Korner.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, as I say, I -- I've made the

13 point. And all I'd ask now is this report be produced as Prosecutor's

14 Exhibit 796.

15 I just should mention, Your Honour, it deals with, as Your Honours

16 have seen, other grave -- exhumations from grave sites.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please do ask the witness to confirm the --

18 this report as one compiled by him.

19 MS. KORNER: He has.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already stated, actually.

21 MS. KORNER: He has already said that, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And that what is contained in it is -- reflects

23 accurately and faithfully his -- his findings as an investigating judge.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can confirm that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 5603

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, all I want to do then is go through the

2 sites.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: P796. No?

4 MS. KORNER: 796, Your Honour, yes.

5 Your Honour, all I want to do then is confirm the various sites

6 with him, which we're nearly in time for the break then.


8 MS. KORNER: Which I hope we'll do with the use of the map.

9 Q. But just this, Judge, because I'm going to move on to documents

10 from the Sanski Most collection after the break. How many members of your

11 own family were killed during this period? Of relatives. Not your

12 immediate family, but relatives.

13 A. Twenty-four of my closer and more distant relatives were killed on

14 the same day, in front of the school in Velagici in the Kljuc

15 municipality. The Serbian army shot them. On than evening, at least 85

16 people were shot, of various ages. They were all civilians. They'd been

17 tricked.

18 Q. Yes. Don't -- don't worry about the details, because we're going

19 to hear from -- some evidence about that. I'm just concerned -- 24

20 members -- relatives of yours were killed that day. Were any others

21 killed in other places?

22 A. Yes. In other places too.

23 Q. Altogether, can you just give us a total, how many members of your

24 relatives?

25 A. Twenty-eight altogether.

Page 5604

1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, would that then be the appropriate

2 time to take the break?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before we break. Just before the witness

4 started testifying on P796, which is his extensive report. You

5 had asked him about another document drawn up by his colleague.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. I rather thought that --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you going to make use of that document or not?

8 Because he brushed it aside, telling you, "I prefer to see the one I drew

9 up."

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, for safety's sake, perhaps I

11 better ask for it to be produced. It's much less -- but it's a long list

12 of all the names. And it's easier in one sense to look -- to look at

13 that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So you tender --

15 MS. KORNER: So I would ask, yes, can that be Prosecutor's Exhibit

16 797.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So with that we can break for another half an

18 hour, resuming at 1.00. Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.


22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, regrettably the map -- although we've

23 got some copies here, the printing didn't work very well. I'll just show

24 Your Honour what I mean. I think we'll have to wait until Mr. Sabir gives

25 evidence. Can I just ask Your Honours to have a quick look. You'll

Page 5605

1 see it's so blurred you can hardly read it. So I think I'm just going to

2 run through the list with him and then we'll look at the ...

3 The technical section is not available at the moment.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I am under the

5 impression, Ms. Korner, that -- I may be completely wrong, but I think

6 that this map has already been exhibited.

7 MS. KORNER: It may be I showed it in opening. I now can't

8 remember.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I haven't had access and I haven't seen any

10 documents from any other cases. And this map, I recall seeing --

11 MS. KORNER: It's perfectly possible --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: -- before.

13 MS. KORNER: -- that I may have shown it in opening and now I

14 can't remember.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I have seen this map before.

16 MS. KORNER: But in any event, Your Honour, I think the simplest

17 thing is Mr. Sabir will run through all the various sites when he gives

18 evidence and we can then plot it using that map.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I could be wrong as well, because -- I could be

20 wrong as well. But I'm not quite sure. But anyway, this definitely not

21 going to be of any help.

22 MS. KORNER: It's not.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Because with the exception of the names in orange,

24 the rest -- I don't think I can distinguish one single name.

25 MS. KORNER: No. I agree.

Page 5606


2 MS. KORNER: So Your Honour, if that's all right, we'll leave it

3 until he comes and I'll just go through the list with him that appears on

4 page 19 of his statement of July 2000.

5 Q. Judge, finally on the topic of exhumations, I think you were

6 conducting exhumations at the following sites: In the Sanski Most

7 municipality, there was the sites at Vrhpolje bridge 1, 2, and 3; Sasina,

8 the fourth site at Vrhpolje bridge, two sites at Hrustovo, one site at

9 Kasapnica, a site at Okrec, Krkojevci, and Hrustovo Glavica, although I

10 think there was another judge in charge of that. And then there were

11 exhumations in the Kljuc municipality at Laniste 1 and 2 and Donja Sanica,

12 and then again at Sanski Most, Greda, Trnovo and Lukavice. Is that right?

13 A. For the most part, yes. But let me mention that the mass grave in

14 Hrastova Glavica was in fact, discovered by me but another judge from the

15 Bihac cantonal court was put in charge of the actual exhumation. As

16 regards the localities in Laniste 1 and 2, I was authorised by the

17 cantonal court in Bihac to be the chief coordinator and to run the whole

18 organisation of the exhumation and also to set up the expert

19 team.

20 My colleague, the president of the Kljuc court, Dzemal Botonic,

21 was the judge who was directly in charge of that exhumation. As regards

22 Lukavice, another judge from the cantonal court was in charge of that

23 exhumation. The others, I conducted.

24 Q. Finally, before I turn to documents that I want you to assist us

25 on, I think you were also a -- I think the president - sorry - of an

Page 5607

1 association of former camp detainees.

2 A. I was the president of the association of former camp detainees

3 while I was in Germany. Then -- I am also the member -- a member of an

4 association of camp inmates of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and also I am a

5 member of the presidency of the association of camp inmates in Sanski

6 Most. So these are just associations of citizens who were all former camp

7 inmates in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 Q. Can I -- I'm sorry. And this is for -- because I'm looking at the

9 very last witness statement that was disclosed, Your Honours, which was

10 taken only in connection with that. But in case anybody is wondering and

11 looking at that, if you have it there, something went wrong with the

12 computer when the front page was typed out. So if anybody has been

13 wondering what that rather curious sentence is, it's actually taken from

14 -- it's a sentence that appears on page 6 and for some reason it appeared

15 on the front page of that statement.

16 Yes, I would like now, please, Judge, to take you through some of

17 the documents we produced. And I would -- if everyone could take what's

18 called the Sanski Most binder number 1.

19 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. I've lost at the moment --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, before you proceed with a new topic.

21 Just out of curiosity more than anything else, in the statement that you

22 referred to a couple of minutes ago relative to the exhumation sites.

23 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: There's a list of 15 sites. Then it seems that

25 previously the witness had given another statement in which he goes

Page 5608

1 through these sites. I have got two queries. One -- in the previous

2 statement, he mentions Krkojevci, which -- no. Yes. It's okay here. And

3 he mentions Sana River. Which one would that be in the list that you went

4 through?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed to assist.


7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Krkojevci site was searched for

8 about three years. We searched it for three years. I knew that -- about

9 that site on the basis of the testimony of two witnesses. However, only

10 last year was I able to actually identify the site, the actual site in

11 Krkojevci near the Sana River. The exhumation was carried out

12 last year, and I assume that the victims there were the ones who

13 suffocated en route to the Manjaca camp because the identification process

14 that is underway at the cantonal court is yet to be completed.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And in your first statement, you also

16 referred to another site, Sana River, where 23 men were taken to the

17 bridge in Vrhpolje on the 31st of May, 1992. They were ordered to jump in

18 one by one. Four Serbs shot at them in the river, et cetera, et cetera.

19 Now, which site would that be from the 15 sites that Ms. Korner mentioned

20 to you? Because I don't see any one of them named Sana River.

21 Vrhpolje, there are -- Vrhpolje 1, 2, and 3, and then there is

22 Vrhpolje 4. Would Sana River be one of these four, or it's something

23 different?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the report, the Sana River was

25 mentioned apropos the location of the Vrhpolje bridge as the site where

Page 5609

1 the civilians from the village of Begici were killed. Some of the

2 bodies were pulled out of the water and we found them in the grave sites

3 in Vrhpolje bridge, at the bridge in Vrhpolje. There are witnesses to all

4 that. There is a witness who survived the massacre.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But it seems to me in the list that Ms. Korner

6 read out to you, there is Vrhpolje 1, 2, and 3, and then there is Vrhpolje

7 4. In the previous statement, that of the 29th and 30th October, 1999,

8 you mentioned Vrhpolje 1, 2, and 3 and Vrhpolje 4. So Sana River can't

9 possibly be one of them.

10 Then there is Sasina, Hrustovo 1 and 1, Kasapnica, Okrec,

11 Krkojevci, Hrastova Glavica, Laniste 1 and 2, Donja

12 Sanica, Greda, Trnovo, and Lukavice. But I don't see Sana River. Where

13 does the 23 men -- bodies supposedly exhumed at the Sana River fit in this

14 list of 15 sites? Or is it something extra?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not on the list. That

16 site -- or rather, the report was not included as the exhumation of a

17 grave site but just as a site where the villagers from the Begici village

18 were killed. That's the site where they were killed. And there is a

19 witness -- or rather, witnesses who can testify to that. That happened on

20 the 31st of May, 1992, on the bridge in Vrhpolje.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we --

23 MS. KORNER: I think the answer is, Your Honour, this is the first

24 statement ever taken, and effectively the judge was being asked to give

25 information about various killings. And I think that's where the mistake

Page 5610

1 has arisen. It's not an exhumation.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But under the title "Exhumations."

3 MS. KORNER: Yes, I agree. I understand that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But anyway, I think the witness has cleared

5 this up for us. We can proceed, Ms. Korner. It's back in your hands.

6 MS. KORNER: I'd like the witness to be given the Banja Luka --

7 the Sanski Most binder number 1, please.

8 And if Your Honours -- the first few documents. Do you have them?

9 I did say we were going to refer to them today.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But I -- we can have them brought up very,

11 very quickly, actually.

12 It's being dealt with. In the meantime, you can proceed, Ms.

13 Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: Well, I can't. [Microphone not activated] I can't,

15 because Your Honours will need to look at the documents.

16 [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, we can use the time to

17 this extent. We now have available for Your Honours --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone, Ms. Korner.

20 MS. KORNER: We now have available for Your Honours and the

21 Defence the redacted statement of the witness that we want to put -- that

22 Your Honours have agreed can go under Rule 92. So we can hand those up

23 now and to Defence so they can have a look at them. I mean, I'm not

24 expecting an answer obviously straight away, but ...

25 I don't think the registry needs to take a copy at the moment

Page 5611

1 until it's the final version. It's just going to confuse matters. So

2 it's just for Your Honours and the Defence.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, Ms. Korner, unless we -- you expect

4 us that we will need to mark the documents or put comments on the

5 documents, et cetera, I think we can use the set that Madam Registrar has

6 and you can proceed, and we will immediately replace them, obviously, when

7 ours comes up.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, certainly.

9 In that case, could the witness -- you'll see there's dividers in

10 this. Could you go to divider number 8. And there's a document which has

11 the number 4 -- Exhibit P82 at the bottom, and if you go to the B/C/S

12 version which follows directly on.

13 Yes, it starts there. Thank you.

14 What's the problem? Oh, I see. Yes, all right. It's divider

15 number 8. The English version is 4 -- it says Exhibit P82 on it.

16 No. No. Usher, if you give it to me. All right. It's easier.

17 Q. Now, may I make it absolutely clear. This is not a document you

18 recovered. I want to deal with the contents. But it's a report dated the

19 23rd of September, 1991, addressed to the Minister of Interior in Banja

20 Luka. And -- well, I'm sorry, it's addressed to - I beg your pardon -

21 it's from the -- as we'll see, it's from the Banja Luka CSB addressed to

22 Dr. Biljana Plavsic, the president of the Serbian Republic Assembly -- no.

23 I'm sorry. That's the Socialist Republic -- and various other people, and

24 to the Banja Luka Corps of the JNA. And it's signed and stamped "Stojan

25 Zupljanin" on the last page; is that correct?

Page 5612

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. And it's a -- it's described as a report on the activities of

3 armed groups on the territory covered by the Banja Luka security services

4 centre. If we go to the report itself, the first page.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's just been brought to my attention

7 that there is a potential transcript problem, and that is that if Ms.

8 Korner refers to the witness as "judge," it becomes confused as to whether

9 she is addressing you or the witness.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Well, she usually refers

11 to me as "Your Honour."

12 MS. KORNER: I never to refer to the judges presiding at "judge."

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I have heard her say, "Yes, judge." "Thank

14 you, judge." "Let me tell you this, judge," referring to you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I don't want to contradict you, but I

16 don't have that impression.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in my jurisdiction, you would never

18 address judges presiding in court as --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I don't recall you addressing me as

20 "judge." I don't know. I may be wrong.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, when I first came to this

22 Tribunal, I had very recently left the bench and most people called me

23 "judge." And I was being called "judge" in the courtroom and the

24 Prosecution objected that I shouldn't be called "judge" since I wasn't a

25 judge any longer -- or at least not here. And it seems to me that this

Page 5613

1 witness really isn't here as a judge, he's here as a witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course not.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: And I think he should not be addressed as judge any

4 longer. I'd prefer that he not be addressed as judge, because I think it

5 at least gives the impression that he is getting some sort of special --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No. He's not --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: -- consideration from the Chamber.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, you know he's not. But I have no

9 objection to that. I mean, it's -- you can live with it.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I know he's not, Your Honour. I'm just talking

11 about the impression that people from the outside might be getting. In

12 fact, one of them has mentioned it to me.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It depends who you --

14 MS. KORNER: His correct title, as is Your Honours' outside court,

15 is that of "judge."

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I address General Talic as "General Talic."

17 MS. KORNER: Correct.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If I had a doctor, I would address him as doctor.

19 And I -- I frankly think that any objection coming from -- from an

20 observer that there could be a confusion -- I mean -- or that by

21 addressing a witness as "judge" because he's a judge, we would give the

22 impression that we are giving him special treatment is something which

23 goes beyond what one would expect. So I -- I prefer to go ahead anyway.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Korner.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes.

Page 5614

1 Q. Can we look at the contents of this report for a moment. It's

2 dated -- the actual report is dated the 21st of September, 1991. And in

3 the first paragraph states that, "There has been increased activity by

4 ever more numerous armed groups which in the last few days has been

5 escalating in scale, particularly in the Prnjavor and Bosanska Gradiska

6 area. But incidents of illegal activity by such armed groups have also

7 been noted in the area" -- and I'll leave out the other municipalities --

8 "Sanski Most." It goes on to talk about armed groups appearing in

9 various uniforms and with various emblems, and talks about the escalation.

10 Can we go then, please, to -- in the English version, it's page 6.

11 And it's the third paragraph on that page which begins "in the Mrkonjic

12 Grad and Sanski Most area."

13 If you could find that, Judge, in the B/C/S version. Have you got

14 that? Yes. You need to -- if you go on in the report itself.

15 MS. KORNER: I'll tell you what. Usher, I think it's easier if I

16 find it.

17 A. It's the addendum to the report.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which page would that be?

19 MS. KORNER: Page -- it's -- at the top, Your Honour, 00961062.


21 MS. KORNER: In the English version. The paragraph begins: "In

22 the Mrkonjic Grad ..."

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Yes. Yes.


25 Q. Is that -- do you see a paragraph beginning: "In the Mrkonjic

Page 5615

1 Grad and Sanski Most area, armed groups of up to 30 people ..."

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 5, last paragraph.

3 A. Yes, I do. I see it.


5 Q. Thank you. "Armed groups of up to 30 people, including some

6 bearing emblems of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, were holding up and

7 checking citizens on local and regional roads." And then it goes on to

8 deal with the arrest of Milan Martic in the Krupa area.

9 Do you recall incidents like this happening, or an incident?

10 A. It was in 1991. This report is dated 1991.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. September.

13 Q. That's right.

14 A. It was a long time ago, but I can recall some incidents -- there

15 were some incidents, but they were of a sporadic nature. But I'm not

16 quite sure whether they indeed happened in this time period or in the

17 beginning of 1992.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. I'm not sure about 1992. I really am not sure.

20 Q. Yes. All right. Can we move then, please, to the next document,

21 number -- behind divider number 9. Yes, we'll go to the next -- the next

22 document.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it Exhibit P104?

24 MS. KORNER: P600.


Page 5616

1 MS. KORNER: Mm-hm. Look at the -- I hope Your Honours' copies

2 have got it at bottom --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The next document is P104. After P82 --

4 MS. KORNER: Not in our bundles, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: P600 would be in volume --

6 MS. KORNER: 1.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No, volume 1, in my volume 1, arrives to Exhibit

8 P408.

9 MS. KORNER: Could I have Your Honour's volume for a moment.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I understand --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: P600 is the first document in the second binder.

13 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, I've just been given very helpfully

14 an explanation by Your Honours' legal officer. I understand that Your

15 Honour's' secretary sorted them all into order.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: She did, yes.

17 MS. KORNER: That was a mistake. They follow a chronological

18 order but the numbering isn't specifically chronological because some of

19 the exhibits which appear in here come from the -- are repeated, and

20 that's why they have earlier exhibit numbers. But the way which they've

21 been arranged is the chronology.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It won't be a problem, Ms. Korner. The important

23 thing is that once I have the exhibit number, I can go straight to the

24 binder.

25 MS. KORNER: I hope you can.

Page 5617

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The only thing is that I have four binders. So I

2 have to --

3 MS. KORNER: Can I put a plea in. It may not always look as

4 though they're efficient, but the way that we've organised these binders

5 is meant to be the most efficient way. It's chronological. And it should

6 be followed that the index that we provided which Mr. Inayat gave the --

7 the provenance --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I have Exhibit P600 right in front of me.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes.

10 Q. Have you got it there, Judge? It's -- it comes from the

11 Territorial Defence staff of Sanski Most, and it's dated the 6th of

12 November, 1991, and states that, "On the basis of the Banja Luka Corps

13 instructions for storing, maintaining, and taking weapons and ammunition

14 from the JNA depot, the various weapons owned by the..." Is that

15 "opstina"?

16 Can you just tell us what the acronym stands for? It

17 says: "Placed in the depot of the RR" and then "opstina Sanski Most." Do

18 you know what that means?

19 A. The municipal staff of the Territorial Defence in Sanski Most.

20 That's what it should mean.

21 Q. And this is obviously what it's -- do you recall the removal of

22 weapons from the Territorial Defence in Sanski Most in around November

23 1991?

24 A. I can remember that very well. I remember that military lorries

25 arrived with soldiers in them, and the blocked street where the building

Page 5618

1 was located -- the building of the public security station, this street

2 was blocked. And the secretariat for National Defence was located there,

3 too. The street was blocked a little further away from the building and

4 it was not possible for traffic to circulate. And several lorries of

5 weapons were taken away. I was in the court building at the time, and I

6 saw that on that day, because the court building is in the same street,

7 not very far from the building of the public security station and the

8 defence secretariat. And these weapons were taken away in military

9 lorries. These lorries belonged to the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

10 I think they were from Banja Luka.

11 Q. Thank you. The next document, please.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's Exhibit P601, which is behind

13 divider 10.

14 Q. If you can look at the B/C/S version. This is a decision,

15 so-called, following the plebiscite that was held on the 9th and 10th of

16 November, 1991. It's actually, I think, in the wrong place, because the

17 actual date of this decision is - if we turn over the page - the 25th of

18 March, 1992. But I think it must have been put there because of the top.

19 And it shows the declaration of -- that all Serbian territories of Sanski

20 Most should become part of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Now, what I want to ask you about is there's a list then of

22 communities that are said to be -- should form part of the Serbian

23 municipality. Looking at that list, were all of those villages, or

24 however you describe them, areas, Serbian -- occupied by Serbs alone?

25 A. No, not all the villages were inhabited by Serbs alone, because

Page 5619

1 here the local commune Lijeva Obala, this is an urban area. It's the town

2 of Sanski Most or the local commune of Djevna [phoen] Obala. That's the

3 town of Sanski Most. The population was mixed here. On Lijeva Obala, the

4 Muslim population was in the majority and then there are other villages --

5 or rather, local communes which are mentioned here and where the

6 population is mixed. For example, Caplje. The Muslim population was in

7 the majority in that village. Fajtovci, the Muslim population was in the

8 majority there, too.

9 Q. All right. And I don't know, this was ordered to be published in

10 the Official Gazette of the Serbian municipality. Did you see this

11 decision at the time it was published?

12 A. I don't remember seeing it when it was published, but I have seen

13 this decision, this document here. This is a document which I found in

14 the building of the municipal assembly in Sanski Most. It was among the

15 documents.

16 Q. Okay. Can we then move to the next document which is in order.

17 MS. KORNER: That is P104, Your Honour. Sorry about this.


19 MS. KORNER: It's actually a leaflet or pamphlet of some sort.

20 A. I'm sorry. Is that between number 11 and 12?

21 Q. After divider -- divider 11. Yes. That's the one.

22 Which is a proclamation to the Serbian people saying that we've

23 held the plebiscite and effectively the Serbs -- it's a -- a request or

24 a -- an invitation to the Serbs not to participate in the referendum on

25 the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, issued by the main board of

Page 5620

1 the Serbian democratic party.

2 And then over the page, there's a description, as it's -- on

3 the -- it's, I think, in the -- yes, over the page. It's a very bad copy.

4 There's a bit headed "What does living in a sovereign Bosnia mean?" And

5 it states -- it quotes, apparently, Izetbegovic's -- I think this is his

6 book on the -- I've forgotten what it's called now -- the Muslim faith.

7 And then by voting in the citizen's referendum, the Serbs would lose their

8 present status of nation building and equal people of Bosnia-Herzegovina

9 and become an ethnic minority in an Islamic state. And it goes on. Just,

10 I think, to summarise this: "By claiming a right to establish a world on

11 its own, Islam clearly eliminates the right and the possibility of any

12 other foreign ideology," and so on and so forth.

13 Now, did you see any one of these pamphlets at the time of the

14 referendum?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. From your acquaintanceship, friendship, with Serbs, do you know

17 whether or not this had any effect on them? In other words, did any of

18 them tell you that they weren't going to vote because of what was in this

19 pamphlet?

20 A. I can't remember that.

21 Q. Thank you. That's fair enough.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think we need trouble with the

23 next document. I want to go to -- which is P36. If we go to number 13,

24 behind divider 13, Exhibit -- Prosecutor's Exhibit P602.

25 Q. This is a document issued by the Sanski Most Municipal Assembly

Page 5621

1 and signed by the chairman of the executive committee, Mr. Karabeg, and

2 discusses the means of taking over the executive post in the Sanski Most

3 branch of the SDK. Item number 1: "The executive committee condemns any

4 recourse to violence or illegal conduct to seize power and similarly the

5 use of force in the action carried out in the Sanski Most branch of the

6 SDK on the 28th of February, 1992."

7 I think you've already dealt with that in your evidence. But just

8 very quickly, can you remind us what happened? And I mean very, very

9 quickly.

10 A. As you said, the SDK was taken over by force. This is the public

11 auditing service. At the time, Mrs. Ankica Dobrijevic [phoen], who is a

12 Croat, she was removed as director of the SDK by force. And this was in

13 the presence of the SOS, Serbian armed forces, and Vrkes Vlado was there,

14 who led the SDS.

15 Q. Yes. I think I just wanted you to remind us all of that.

16 MS. KORNER: Because I see the time, Your Honour. So that might

17 be an appropriate moment.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner. I had expected that the -- you

19 would have finished your examination-in-chief today, because you had said

20 two days. And so I think you owe it to the Defence to give them an

21 indication --

22 MS. KORNER: I have. We discussed -- Your Honour, I realise

23 because various things had happened and how much longer it was taking -- I

24 said I would be still dealing with him in chief tomorrow, or the best

25 part of tomorrow, because I intend -- because he can deal with so many of

Page 5622

1 these documents himself. And I asked her how long cross-examination would

2 take. I understand Madam Fauveau will start and thinks it will be a

3 session, so it may be that he will still have to come back the following

4 Tuesday, which is ...

5 Your Honour, I said all along this was going to be a lengthy

6 witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I know. I know that. But -- okay.

8 So we'll meet again tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

10 at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

11 the 15th day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.