1 [Open session]
2 [The witness entered court]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, would you call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
7 IT-99-36-PT, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Hoping that calling the case is not the only thing
9 that we'll be able to accomplish today.
10 Yes, General Talic, good morning to you. Can you hear me in a
11 language that you can understand?
12 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I
13 do hear you in a language that I understand.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, General Talic. You may sit down.
15 Mr. Brdjanin. Good morning to you. Can you hear me in a language
16 that you can understand?
17 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
18 I can hear you in a language that I understand.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner assisted by Susan Grogan,
21 case manager. Good morning, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good morning to you.
23 Appearances for Radislav Brdjanin.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm John Ackerman and I
25 am here with Tania Radosavljevic and Marela Jevtovic. Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I Thank you. Good morning to you.
2 Appearances for General Talic.
3 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President,
4 Your Honours. I'm Natasha Ivanovic-Faveau, assisted by Fabien Masson. I
5 represent General Talic.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Before I ask you whether there are any
7 preliminaries, let me give you some news which can be bad or good
8 depending on who is the recipient. This morning this courtroom is needed
9 for the Initial Appearance of one of the newcomers. That will be at
10 10.30, which means that we will need to vacate this courtroom at 10.00, at
11 the latest, which also means that we will not be able to resume until at
12 least after 10 minutes after Judge Schomburg would have finished with the
13 Initial Appearance. I'm sorry I couldn't give you any forewarning on
14 this. I was only informed this morning, although someone did leave a
15 message on my voice mail at 6.00 or 6.30 yesterday evening, when I had
16 already left. So that's the position.
17 So, Madame Fauveau, I would imagine you will be prepared in case
18 you're not in a position to finish your cross-examination today, you will
19 need to continue it on Tuesday, when we resume.
20 Mr. Ackerman, you'll certainly not be in a position to start today
21 for sure.
22 So that's the situation. Having said that, if there are any
23 preliminaries, and I see the three of you on your feet, any
24 preliminaries? No. Okay.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the exhibit -- I'm sorry - the witness
1 list is being copied at the moment, but I'll deal with that later. There
2 are some slight wrinkles. There are certainly changes from the list that
3 Your Honour had because of the two witnesses --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what you gave me to understand.
5 MS. KORNER: That's right. But I'll deal with that at a later
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was aware that Judge Schomburg was
9 doing the first appearance, but somehow or other I thought he might be
10 prepared to do it in court 2, as there was only one defendant.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that doesn't allow for an audience.
12 MS. KORNER: Very true.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: An Initial Appearance sometimes does appeal for --
14 to an audience anyway. But it's something that has been already agreed
16 Yes. Judge, good morning to you. Ms. Korner has got a few more
17 questions to you, after which Madame Fauveau, representing General Talic,
18 will commence her cross-examination, which presumably I assume it will not
19 be concluded today. There will be arrangements made for you to return to
20 this Tribunal, unless he's going to stay here. I don't know what the
21 arrangements are.
22 MS. KORNER: I'm almost certain he'll be staying here, Your
23 Honour. I doubt they will fly him back for the four days.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, you will be required to attend again, Judge,
25 and Tuesday, and presumably then by Wednesday at the latest Thursday
1 you'll be free to go.
2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I'm working on the basis we've got
3 the next witness lined up for Tuesday. Almost certain he'll finish on
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Monday is off.
6 MS. KORNER: Holiday
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. ACKERMAN: I wouldn't be confident that he will finish on
9 Tuesday, if I were Ms. Korner.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay.
12 Good morning.
13 Yes, Madame Fauveau.
14 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just wanted
15 to inform you that I don't think that I will finish today. I think that I
16 will finish my cross-examination on Tuesday.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The impression that I got from you yesterday also
18 indirectly through Mr. Ackerman was that you would be taking the whole
20 So, Judge --
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just mention something? Because
22 now I've done it, Your Honour, may I just mention something. Having said
23 I never call you Judge because of the Judge business. I did ask for
24 indications, and I understood perfectly that Madame Fauveau would be
25 taking a full session. I understood, however, Mr. Ackerman, that he would
1 not be of any length of time with this witness, in fact, he would be quite
2 short, because we had this discussion last week. I'm only raising it for
3 this reason: We're getting a series of complaints from the VWS about the
4 length of time witnesses have been kept here. Most of it I agree. These
5 have been very lengthy witnesses from the point of view of the
6 Prosecution. But it would be helpful if an indication, a realistic
7 indication, could be given of how long cross-examination is going to take.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the problem is that had we gone on
9 regularly, I mean, as planned, as scheduled, in other words, today,
10 Madame Fauveau would have finished her cross-examination. Then,
11 presumably, I mean, out of a whole session, one would have expected Mr.
12 Ackerman, according to what he informed us, to finish well before the end
13 of that session, but if Madame Fauveau is not going to finish her
14 cross-examination today and it is quite obvious she won't be in a position
15 to finish it because we won't have a full session today and Mr. Ackerman
16 not knowing exactly how much of Tuesday's session Madame Fauveau will be
17 using, utilizing, I can't call up on him and tell me whether he will be
18 finishing on Tuesday.
19 MS. KORNER: No, no. I appreciate that. But I'm just asking, I
20 mean, if we can, to get some realistic estimates.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Usually when Mr. Ackerman says something in this
22 courtroom, it's not far off from what he really means. So I would -- I
23 wouldn't even like to put the question again to him. I mean, I think I
24 can rely on his word, which he's kept throughout so far since we started
25 this trial.
1 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think Ms. Korner may not appreciate
3 that a lot of what one does on cross-examination depends upon what one
4 hears during the direct examination, and it's been -- there's been, I
5 think, two or three days of direct examination since I made my last
6 estimate, and I would say that the time I need to spend has probably
7 doubled as a result of what has happened on direct the last couple of
8 days. So, you know, I will take the time that I think I need. I won't
9 use up time. But it seems to me that if the concern is that witnesses are
10 here too long, perhaps Ms. Korner could desist from reading documents to
11 the Court and having the witness confirm that she is reading properly.
12 That would probably shorten things up a bit.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
14 Now, Ms. Korner, I would suggest to you to ignore Mr. Ackerman and
15 proceed with your first question and the next ten documents, more or less,
16 so that we finish with this witness.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes. I'm tempted to say something about Mr.
18 Ackerman's the last remark but I won't. I'll resist it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: When you get a suggestion like that from a
20 Mediterranean take it.
21 MS. KORNER: Could Judge Draganovic have the binder back again,
22 please. And if the usher would be kind enough to turn to find the
23 document marked Exhibit P408, which is behind divider 36.
24 WITNESS: ADIL DRAGANOVIC [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued].
2 Q. This is a document dated the 6th of August, 1992, which was the
3 day after or around the same day that the reporters went to the Omarska
4 camp, and it deals with -- it's addressed to the 1st Krajina Corps
5 command, headed "Selection of prisoners in the Manjaca POW camp from the
6 Prijedor -- I'm sorry. It's from - I beg your pardon - it's from the 1st
7 Krajina Corps, and it's signed by Colonel Bogojevic and it's addressed
8 to the Prijedor national security sector.
9 It states this:
10 "By processing the war prisoners in the Manjaca POW camp, we
11 realise that a certain quite large number of them, according to
12 incrimination, do not deserve to be treated as prisoners of war. They did
13 not have weapons, they did not participate in combat, they were not in
14 uniform, et cetera. In order to free space to accommodate potential new
15 prisoners in the Manjaca POW camp and in order for each prisoner to get
16 the treatment they deserve, we ask that you send a responsible official,
17 or several of them, to Manjaca who would, together with the security organ
18 at Manjaca, carry out a selection of prisoners who could be released and
19 prisoners who must remain in the camp. This is all in aid of the proposal
20 and the release of that section of the prisoners who do not fall into the
21 prisoner of war category. According to our records, in Manjaca there are
22 currently 944 prisoners from the Sanski Most municipality. As you know,
23 we have recently been attacked by the European and world media in
24 connection with the existence of concentration camps, so this is
25 sufficient reason to carry out a prisoner selection."
1 Two questions, please, Judge: First of all, you told us that the
2 majority of the prisoners who were with you were civilians. Do you recall
3 any releases around August of 1992?
4 A. As far as I can remember, these were all civilians, particularly
5 those from Sanski Most and Kljuc, Prijedor. All of these people were
6 civilians. There were no prisoners of war, people who would be in
7 uniforms. And as to the question whether anyone was released, I do know
8 that on one occasion it was said that a group, a smaller group of people
9 from Kljuc, would be released. I think that these people were sick
10 people, elderly people, and that group was called out for two days, and
11 they waited to be released. At one point they were even taken out of the
12 internal part of the camp where the command is. But on both days they
13 came back and they never in fact left.
14 A small group from Sanski Most, if I'm not mistaken, I think they
15 were released. These were under-age people and elderly people. But there
16 may have been around 80 people, or maybe even less. I know, for instance,
17 Mohamed Arapovic, a neighbour of mine. He was released. A boy by the
18 name of Mujagic was released. So I do remember that. It may have been in
19 that time period.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner.
21 Judge, I forgot this morning to ask you to make the solemn
22 declaration. Could you just make the solemn declaration, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And next question is -- comes from me.
1 On the basis of the solemn declaration that you have just made, could you
2 kindly confirm that the answer you gave to Ms. Korner's question a few
3 minutes ago is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can confirm.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Sit down and we can continue. Thank you.
6 Sorry, Ms. Korner.
7 MS. KORNER: It's a slight side track, but I've never quite
8 understood why witnesses already bound by the oath should have to take it
9 everybody morning.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I'm used to.
11 MS. KORNER: Right. Okay.
12 Q. Can we move, then, simply to note that the next exhibit --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment again. In the B/C/S version of this
14 document --
15 MS. KORNER: It's stamped.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's stamped, but the left before the text as
17 such begins after the word "selekcija," there is a word "ratnih."
18 MS. KORNER: Sorry. I don't know where Your Honour is looking at
19 at the moment.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: If you look at the English version, fifth line.
21 MS. KORNER: Oh, yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Selection of -- and there is a black redacted part
23 of the text or whatever it is. In the Serbo-Croat version, the word which
24 has been redacted in English is visible. You can read it, ratnih.
25 What does that mean, Judge?
1 If he can ...
2 A. Do you mean the word "ratnih"?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I know you're asking me to tell me
4 what it means, but the idea is that the interpreters will translate to me
5 the word.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Selection of prisoners of war in the
7 Manjaca prisoner of war camp. That means that we were treated as
8 prisoners of war.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: The word which has been cancelled is "war."
10 What is the word for "war" in your language?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rat.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 MS. KORNER:
14 Q. Could we just move very quickly to the next document in the
15 bundle, marked P714, simply to note -- it apparently deals with -- it's an
16 SDS invitation to attend a meeting, and we'll see -- to include a report
17 on General Talic's visit. The next divider, 37, and I think that's a
18 document you personally -- no, maybe it's not this one. It's the next
19 one, I think. Yes.
20 The next document, P715, that, I think, again being a record of
21 the minutes of the executive committee was a document that you handed to a
22 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, and also the following
23 document, neither of which I wish to go through, which is P716.
24 A. Yes, I can confirm that.
25 Q. Then the next document, P717, behind divider 40, I think we simply
1 need to note that this is a report concerning collection centres, as
2 described, and the actual report, it deals with a number of
3 municipalities, but the report -- and there's a completion of -- I'm
4 sorry. It was signed by each of the heads of the local SJBs and Sanski
5 Most appears in that report at page 6 of the translation onwards. And
6 Mr. Ackerman needn't worry I'm not proposing to read through that. It's
7 there. And it's a document that comes up in all the municipalities
8 virtually, Your Honours, so we can look at it.
9 Could we move, then, to Exhibit 718, which is behind divider 41.
10 And again, that's a document that you handed personally to a
11 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor. P719, the same. And then
12 if we move -- and P721, which is behind divider 44. And again, I don't
13 propose to go through those, Your Honour.
14 Can we move now, please, to P725, which you will find behind
15 divider 48. Now, this is a document, I think, Judge, that you personally
16 handed to a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. It's apparently - and I want to look at this - some sort of letter
19 dated the 16th of September, 1992 and signed by the -- what's called the
20 intervention Platoon, SOS. And there are three signatures, if one looks
21 at the original. And unless I'm mistaken, it's the same stamp that we saw
22 earlier from the SOS announcement. It's not a very good copy, I'm
24 Can you tell us where you found that? Can you remember where it
25 came from?
1 A. This document was found in the premises of the Sanski Most SDS.
2 Q. Now, it's headed "Report on the work and activities of the SOS,
3 acting as an Intervention Platoon within the 6th Krajina Brigade between
4 the 1st of May, 1991, and the 16th of September, 1992," and it's addressed
5 to fellow Serbs, patriots, gentlemen. And I'm not going to read the first
6 bit. It's apparently - and I'm summarising - a complaint about the way
7 they're being portrayed.
8 Could we turn to page 2, and if you could find in the B/C/S
9 version, please, Judge, the paragraph that begins: "These young men ...":
10 "These young men, I'm thinking of the seven lads who tirelessly
11 brought weapons from the various warehouses and points and armed the
12 Serbian people, risking that the weapons fall into the hands of Ustashas
13 and Green Berets, especially on the routes of Sanski Most to Knin, Sanski
14 Most to Bosanski Petrovac, Sanski Most to Banja Luka, and they did all
15 that while Alija's Muslim police was patrolling and the Serbs were leaving
16 the area at the time."
17 And then it goes on to glorify them. And then the last sentence:
18 "The citizens of Sanski Most know very well that as genuine
19 members of the SDS democratic party, we invested our own funds at the time
20 in order to secure peace. We never allowed large gatherings of SDA and
21 HDZ to take place at any stage, and we broke up any such gathering in the
22 usual way. The SDS from Sanski Most is our witness that we put them into
23 power. It is unbearable to think what could have happened if we had not
24 acted in this way. Blowing up buildings was not in anyone's interest, but
25 we could not crush the Ustashas and Green Berets any other way. No one
1 should take credit for the capture of SDA and HDZ leaders owner the SOS
2 and in part the Serbian police for its action. We were then congratulated
3 and highly praised for it because you need heart to face up to a sniper's
4 barrel and the ones who did not -- who did know who they are."
5 Literally, can you just answer this question, please, yes or no:
6 You've told us about the activities of the SOS. Here they suggest that
7 they were breaking up party gatherings of the SDA and the HDZ. Were you
8 aware that this is what they were doing at the time?
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. And then just a few more parts of this lengthy document, complaint
11 that the Serbs never mention the name of these lads and then:
12 "Do not forget, these lads never refused a single position in the
13 6th Krajina Brigade."
14 Then it goes on again that:
15 "Members of the SOS have various other professions."
16 And in the next paragraph:
17 "Because of those who don't want good to come to the Serbian
18 people, I must tell you some more truths. The members are -- ultimatum to
19 the joint authorities especially to the Serbian part of the authorities,
20 to speed things up and take more concrete action in order to create a true
21 government for the Serbian people. Remember the meeting we had on the
22 premises of the Serbian orthodox church, where we particularly warned
23 about the slow implementation of the conclusions reached by the BH SDS and
24 Bosnian Krajina, where we openly identified certain Serbs and their
25 private interests, calling them traitors and accusing them of being hand
1 in glove with the SDA and HDZ for personal profit and to further their
3 And again, do you recall -- was there any public accusation being
4 made by members of the SOS against Serbs who they described as traitors,
5 that you can remember?
6 A. I can't remember that.
7 Q. And finally, if we go to the next page, page 4, and if you could
8 find the paragraph that begins: "The attack on the municipality ..." Do
9 you have that, Judge? It says: "I continue chronologically," and then
10 the paragraph begins: "The attack on the municipality ..."
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's on page 5 in the B/C/S, last --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: The penultimate paragraph.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll continue in chronological
15 order. The attack against the municipality. I have found this. It is on
16 page 5 of the B/C/S version.
17 MS. KORNER: Thank you. "The attack on the municipality of the
18 30th SOS only carried out the will of the people, who wanted to stop the
19 uncontrolled fascism. That's what it should be called - of the heated
20 extremists from the SDA and the HDZ, in an underhand way and using
21 blackmailing methods, they occupied the municipal building to carry out
22 their dark goals. 45 young men, soldiers with the support of the 5th
23 section of the 4th Battalion embarked on this courageous feat without
24 spilling any blood, and that's how we resolved the question of government
25 in the municipality was solved."
1 "Colonel --" I think that should be Anicic, "could give us more
2 details about it and I'm sure that he wrote it down somewhere. We must
3 also mention how we resolved the previous problem of the SDK, the Serbian
4 tricolour flag started fluttering on top of their buildings and that was
5 that. There you go, gentlemen. Organise your government. We must not
6 forget a little episode," et cetera, et cetera.
7 And then at the top of the page:
8 "After that, one combat action followed another, mopping up
9 Trnovo, Mahala, Hrustovo, Populja [phoen] twice, Marino caught seven
10 extremist Ustashas in the corridor, constant patrols, mopping up, and so
11 on and so forth."
12 Yes. Thank you. If we leave that document, please. Could we
13 just note again that the next document, P726, was, I think, again handed
14 by you to an Office of the Prosecutor, a CSB document.
15 Could we go now, please, to Exhibit P --
16 A. Yes, I have it.
17 Q. P728, behind divider 51. This again was a document I think you
18 handed to the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you remember where you found
19 this, or where it was found?
20 A. This document was found in the premises of the municipal staff,
21 the municipal headquarters of the civilian protection.
22 Q. Now, this is a report from the civilian protection staff. Could
23 you find the bit that's headed "A" in the town? That's found in the third
24 page of the translation and is, I think, on the second page of the
25 original B/C/S. The report is from July to October 1992. And there's a
1 sentence that reads in that paragraph "in the town":
2 "Simultaneously with these activities" that's all the clearing
3 activities "a considerable amount of time was spent removal the debris
4 from the town mosque. These activities are still underway and the
5 exhumation and dislocation of the cemetery next to the town mosque will
6 begin after the adoption of appropriate decisions in the Municipal
8 Is that cemetery the same as the one you were talking about, the
9 Grede cemetery, or is that a different one?
10 A. The town mosque in Sanski Most, Hasanbegova mosque was destroyed.
11 It's in the centre of town. At the beginning of the Mahala neighbourhood.
12 And after it had been destroyed, it was an old town area which was 300 or
13 400 years old. It was an old town cemetery, and it was removed and a
14 parking lot was constructed there. So when we returned there in 1995, in
15 October, it had been completely cleared. It was a completely cleared
16 parking area.
17 Q. What happened to the bodies or the coffins that were removed? Do
18 you know?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. And how old was that cemetery? How long had it been there?
21 A. I've already mentioned that. Between 300 and 400 years. It was
22 as old as the town of Sanski Most.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, next there's a mention of a place called --
24 what's the -- can you tell us what the place under "B" is? Could you just
25 tell us what the name of the places the next immediately after that.
1 There's a place that's mentioned. I just can't pronounce it. I'm sorry.
2 A. Pobrijezje. It's a neighbourhood near the town as you go from the
3 centre of the town towards Prijedor, along the main road.
4 Q. Right. Just see if I can find the big map. Can we just, for a
5 moment --
6 MS. KORNER: That's the map of the area, Your Honour.
7 While that's being done, we'll have a look.
8 Q. There's a reference there to a mosque also debris from a
9 demolished mosque. Before this, what was the ethnic make-up of this
11 A. The population in Pobrijezje was mainly Muslim, but before the
12 war and now. There are several houses belonging to people of Serbian
13 ethnicity. Below the Pobrijezje neighbourhood, towards Podlug. Podlug is
14 a Serbian settlement.
15 Q. And then is Stari Majdan, again they say that they started
16 clearing and removing debris from a demolished religious building, and
17 then there would be sanitation of residential building. Stari Majdan I
18 think is an actual part of Sanski Most; is that correct?
19 A. Stari Majdan is an old neighbourhood, an urbanised neighbourhood,
20 which is six kilometres from Sanski Most, in the direction of Ljubija.
21 The majority of the population is Bosniak in this settlement.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we can see in fact on the ordinary
23 Sanski Most map Pobrijezje is marked.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In fact, I was going to tell you forget the
25 map, because we have already been --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mosque in Stari Majdan was
4 also destroyed, and this was the clearing out of the religious building of
5 the mosque itself.
6 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
7 Q. Can we -- I'm not going to trouble with the rest of this
8 document? Can we move --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, Ms. Korner, looking at this
10 document, the English version, it starts exactly and continues as in the
11 Serbo-Croat, except that while the English version after page 7 continues
12 then with what seems to be a summary of what is contained in the previous
13 seven pages, that summary does not appear in the Serbo-Croat version, at
14 least the one I have. I have five pages, and that's it, of Serbo-Croat.
15 That excludes the title page. And it seems that the summary of the report
16 has a reference number, which is SM-65/20. It doesn't show up in the
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we'll do a check on that.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Just for the record, because I don't
20 think it's going to make any difference.
21 MS. KORNER: No, but we'll do a check. It may be we've missed
22 some of the pages in B/C/S.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Could be.
24 MS. KORNER:
25 Q. Could we move, please, briefly, to the next document, Exhibit
1 P729, and this is a report from the Security Services Centre in Banja
2 Luka. It's the SNB, which is the national security department, and it
3 records that apparently by October 1992 there was a radical party
4 operating, and it's purely to note that Mr. Delic, Tomo Delic, was the
5 main initiator. And at the bottom of the page, it states that:
6 "About 20.000 Muslims have moved out of this region, and the
7 remaining 10.000 or so wish to do the same. Muslims have been moving out
8 of this region mostly because of its uncertain future and lack of
10 Then, please, could we move now to document P730, which you will
11 find behind divider 3. We're now going back to the beginning in the
12 numbering. Again, this deals with destruction of religious property.
13 It's a report from the military police, dated the 2nd of November. It's
14 dated on the 1st or the 2nd of November 1992 as printed, unidentified
15 persons attacked the village of Sehovci. On this occasion a mosque in the
16 village was demolished. The attack by identified persons was carried out
17 at around 2145. A strong explosion resounded, the mosque destroyed while
18 the windows of some homes were shattered. On the basis of several
19 interviews conducted, it is apparent that the unidentified persons arrived
20 in a truck and two small cars. The explosive for the mosque which was
21 destroyed was most probably transported from a truck," and so on and so
23 This particular village, how far was that from Sanski Most?
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I left the map behind in my
25 room, but I'll check that later.
1 A. The village of Sehovci is about two kilometres from the town.
2 The population there is Bosniak, and as far as the destruction of the
3 mosque is concerned, I can say the following: The first house next to the
4 mosque belonged to my sister. I received information concerning the
5 destruction of this mosque from my sister's family. The mosque was
6 shelled and explosives were planted to destroy it. It was shelled from
7 the Serbian settlement of Podlug, and the explosives were planted. It was
8 known that evening that the mosque was going to be destroyed. The
9 inhabitants who lived near the mosque were told to move away. A special
10 military vehicle arrived which belonged to the engineers. And that's how
11 the mosque was destroyed.
12 Q. Yes?
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it is in fact also marked on the little
14 map. One can see it heading in the direction of Banja Luka.
15 Q. Now, this is all about -- the next series of documents seem to
16 refer to this village. If you go, please, to the next document, Exhibit
17 P732. This is a Municipal Assembly meeting, and the first item on the
18 agenda which was discussed was -- well, the agenda says: "Report and
19 explanation in connection with the armed operation carried out at Trnovo
20 and Sehovci" and the discussion concluded that a report should be
21 requested from the command of the 6th Krajina Brigade and the public
22 security station on who took part in organising the armed attack on these
23 two places and what the aim of such a large-scale attack was."
24 And then under agenda two, the conclusion being reached was that:
25 "The perpetrators of this heinous crime must be discovered with
1 all speed and the severest measures provided by law must be taken against
3 And that deals, as we can look, and I think we've already covered
4 that, the killings of Croats in Kruhare and Skelica. We discovered that
5 with the letter from traitors.
6 A. Skelica.
7 Q. Just very briefly, from your investigations, who was involved, as
8 you understood it, in this attack on Trnovo and Sehovci?
9 A. The units of the 6th Krajina Brigade and the police.
10 Q. Okay. Could we then move -- perhaps the last document and then --
11 to P733, which can be found behind divider - I'm sorry - divider 8. This
12 is a document I think again that you personally handed to the Office of
13 the Prosecutor; is that right?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And it's a meeting again of the executive committee of the Sanski
16 Most municipal --
17 A. The executive board.
18 Q. I'm sorry. The executive board. Executive board? Okay. It
19 says -- in the translation it says "executive committee." Is that -- is
20 there a difference?
21 A. Yes. The executive committee is an organ of the Municipal
22 Assembly. The executive committee -- so it's an organ of the Municipal
23 Assembly, and the executive committee is an executive organ of the
24 Municipal Assembly.
25 Q. Well, I hope this isn't going to matter, Your Honour, because I
1 don't want to pursue this. If it does matter, then ...
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Korner.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. Conclusions. 2:
5 "Arrange a visit to the 1st Krajina Corps command and inform the
6 Corps commander of the situation in the municipality and the issue of
7 reducing the number of battalions in the 6th Krajina Brigade to 4, and it
8 was going to be asked to analyse its work.
9 And then over the page, item 9 states that:
10 "The political and security situation in Sanski Most, a report by
11 the public security -- it must be "station" and the brigade command and a
12 report from a meeting of the 1st Krajina Corps commander General Talic
13 shall be included in item 1."
14 And then finally, before we have to break, P735, which is behind
15 divider 10, simply, I think, to note that the -- this is a document again
16 that you handed directly to the Office of the Prosecutor, and the decision
17 that was reached was that the command of the 6th Krajina Brigade and the
18 public security station are requested to submit a report on who
19 participated in the organisation of the armed attack on Trnovo and
20 Sehovci. I think this is, in fact, just a repetition of what we've seen
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In that case, and just to note, please, P736. You handed this, I
24 think, directly to the Office of the Prosecutor. It's a document - and I
25 simply want to know where you got it from - it's a document addressed --
1 I'm sorry - headed "Why did the intervention against the Serbian people
2 start?" Signed by somebody called Professor Buscovenovic [phoen], and it
3 seemed to be some sort of --
4 A. Sorry. Sorry. Behind which divider is this?
5 Q. I'm sorry. Divider 12. You're not getting translation?
6 A. I didn't receive the translation.
7 Q. Do you know where this document came from?
8 A. I think I found it in the premises of the Municipal Assembly in
9 Sanski Most.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's some kind of polemic, address, it
11 looks like, to the European community. Yes. Because if one looks at the
12 top of page 2, you people of the European community.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I would be more interested in knowing who this
14 Professor Buscovenovic is and whether he held any position of power or
15 influence at the time.
16 MS. KORNER:
17 Q. Do you know?
18 A. This document was found in the office of the then president of the
19 municipality, Nenad Koraslin [phoen]. It's some sort of a report, some
20 sort of essay. Maybe Mr. Brdjanin knows who Buscovenovic is.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Leave Mr. Brdjanin alone, please.
22 MS. KORNER:
23 Q. You don't know, is the answer. All right.
24 A. I don't know.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And with that I --
1 A. I don't know.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: -- We can stop for the time being. We break until
3 necessary. I can't tell you when we are going to start again. It depends
4 on --
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was told that the appearance wasn't in
6 fact until 10.30.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but we need to vacate the room half an hour
8 before because they have to change the tapes and do this and that and when
9 it's all over, they need another ten minutes to --
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Can someone notify us in the Defence room when we
12 should come back?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Could someone notify us in the Defence room when we
15 should return?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm going to give instruction to Madam Chuqing
17 Chen now to do precisely that. Not just you, but also Ms. Korner and
18 ourselves. We'll resume just after 10 minutes following the end of the
19 Initial Appearance.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, all I can say is this month is jinxed.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.02 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, while I just find my place again. I'm
1 sorry. We've just come back into court.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
3 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: I apologise.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madame Faveau.
5 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I would just like to
6 apologise on behalf of Fabien Masson, who is downstairs and making
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 Yes, Ms. Korner.
10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Everything is being
11 reorganised. Can I hand out the list now of the witnesses for the next --
12 or the revamped order of witnesses. I haven't had an opportunity to give
13 it to the Defence yet, so -- and to the Court.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just very quickly point out:
16 There's one major difference, and that is the second witness from the
17 humanitarian organisation will not be testifying at this stage.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: He was going to testify 29th and 30th of this month,
19 if I'm not mistaken.
20 MS. KORNER: It was effectively a week on Monday or Tuesday.
21 We've got another holiday, haven't we, somewhere?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.
23 MS. KORNER: And he will not be for various administrative
24 reasons. So what we've done is moved the witnesses up. What we've done
25 is when we checked the list yesterday after Your Honour raised it
1 Witnesses 139 and 143, who were the ones who were difficult, they have
2 been moved back. And so the next witness, starting, I hope, possibly on
3 Tuesday, probably on Wednesday, will be 7.29 and will be --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: She is trying to provoke you again, Mr. Ackerman.
5 MS. KORNER: And we'll give Your Honours the statements at the end
6 of the session.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. Thank you. So I take it that the next
8 witness will be 7.29.
9 MS. KORNER: Correct.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: He is not protected.
11 MS. KORNER: No.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We won't mention his name because he might ask for
13 protection between now and Tuesday.
14 MS. KORNER: Exactly. Although I think it's unlikely.
15 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madame Faveau.
17 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we be told about the
18 witness who is not coming from this organisation? I think it is witness
20 JUDGE AGIUS: 7. -- Yes, exactly. 7. --
21 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Is he not going to come at
23 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.223.
24 MS. KORNER: He is coming, but not at the stage that we
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that this is the witness that some time
2 back you had warned us that if we don't really get him on the date -- on
3 the day that he had asked for, it will be at least six months before he
4 will turn up.
5 MS. KORNER: That's right. Not six. It will be at least four,
6 Your Honour. It won't be before September at the earliest. But for
7 various reasons we've had to make that alteration.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
9 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. I'm told I had just dealt with
10 document 736. I'm trying to find it on my own list. Yes.
11 Q. Yes. If we look please at document -- the next document P737, at
12 the divider 13. Somebody has taken the bundle away from the witness.
13 Again, this is a document I think that you personally submitted to
14 the Office of the Prosecutor. Is that right, Judge?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And it shows the allocation of what's described as the allotment
17 of apartments for temporary use. Just very quickly: These -- the former
18 tenants, were they of mixed ethnicity, as far as you can tell?
19 A. I'm sorry, Ms. Korner. Does this refer -- are you referring to
20 the same document?
21 Q. No. You've been given -- I'm sorry. It's the second divider,
22 number 13, and somebody has directed you to the first divider. It's just
23 the first page. In fact, Judge, other than the fact that you gave it,
24 unless you know who these people were, it's perhaps better not to guess at
25 ethnicity. It's my fault.
1 A. Yes, I can confirm that.
2 Q. That you gave this document to the Office of the Prosecutor.
3 Right. Okay.
4 Can we move, then, please, to the document at the next page -- the
5 next divider, that's number 14, document P738. And I just want to confirm
6 with you again, when you look at it, that this was a document you
7 personally handed to a member of the Office of the Prosecutor.
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. And if we just look at page 3 for a moment, our page 3, just
10 before we get to item 2, it's your page 6, I believe, in the B/C/S. No.
11 Maybe not. There's lots of double ones. Sorry. No. It's -- it says "to
12 request the command of the 6th Krajina Brigade to intensify political work
13 in the battalions." Do you see that there?
14 A. Yes, I can see it.
15 Q. All right. Then can we move, please, now quickly on to P742,
16 which you will find behind divider number 18. This is dated the 15th of
17 December, 1992 and is a document headed, "War bulletin of the 6th Krajina
18 Brigade" and is apparently dealing with the fact that Colonel Basara was
19 leaving, and a Colonel Kajtez had been appointed. Could you go to the
20 end of the document, because there's a paragraph that says:
21 "Under the command of Colonel Branko Basara, the 6th Krajina
22 Light Infantry Brigade took part in the following actions: The liberation
23 of Bosanska Krupa, the liberation and cleansing of Hambarine, Kozarusa,
24 and Kozarac, a creation of conditions for the takeover of Kljuc, the
25 seizure of weapons throughout the municipality, the military victory
1 against the Muslim extremists in Vrhpolje and Hrustovo. The brigade took
2 part in the cleansing of the entire territory on the left bank of the Una
3 River and the cleansing of Sanica, Krasulja, Hrustovo, Vrhpolje and then
4 in carrying out tasks in the valleys of Bosna and Vrbas, and the
5 breakthrough and the safeguard of the corridor."
6 The map that you found in the 6th Krajina Brigade showing the
7 movements, did that correspond with what's written here, as far as you can
9 A. It does correspond to it completely.
10 Q. Okay. Then if we could move, please, to the next document that I
11 wanted to ask about, P744, which is behind divider 20. This again, I
12 think, is a document that you yourself recovered and handed to the Office
13 of the Prosecutor, and it deals with the disposal of both rubbish and
14 people and animals, it looks like. It's a long list of what happened. Do
15 you remember where this document came from?
16 A. I do. I found this document in the communal organisation in the
17 socially owned organisation Sana in Sanski Most. Public utilities
19 Q. Thank you. I was go to ask. And if we just look at one example,
20 we can see on the 9th of June, page 3 of our translation, item number 26,
21 burial of 35 people killed. It doesn't say where. In the next entry for
22 the 10th of June, burial of two persons killed, visit Vrhpolje.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I note, again, I mean, the English
24 version stops at number 309; the B/C/S one continues from 310 and you have
25 one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve,
1 thirteen, thirteen pages times 2, 26, including extensive notes which are
2 not translated into English language. Do I take it these are irrelevant
3 and you are not tendering them into evidence?
4 MS. KORNER: The whole document was put in, but the only part that
5 was thought to be specifically relevant was the part up to December 1992
6 because that's when the indictment period ends.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's the reason?
8 MS. KORNER: That's the reason.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
10 MS. KORNER: I'll try and save the Translation Unit some effort.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I just wanted -- I imagined there would be
12 an explanation, but I just wanted to hear it.
13 MS. KORNER: Could we go to the next exhibit, please, 746, which
14 is behind divider 22. And what happened, I think, is we don't seem to
15 have the whole document, and so it starts in the middle of -- we start the
16 original B/C/S version starts at page 5 of the document, and so the
17 translation begins at that part.
18 Q. It appears to be some kind of history of the 6th Krajina Brigade
19 again. And can we turn to page 4 in the translation. And it's the
20 paragraph beginning: "On the basis of information ..." And I'm afraid I
21 cannot help as to where that paragraph starts. I would think at the
22 bottom of the -- page 8 in the original version, somewhere there. There's
23 a paragraph beginning: "On the basis of information gathered by the
24 Sanski Most Public Security Service ..." Yes.
25 A. On the basis of information gathered.
1 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, here we see in that paragraph "gathered by
2 the Sanski Most public Security Service, the Banja Luka CSB," and so on.
3 "The intentions of the Muslims and the SDA were uncovered and measures
4 taken to expose and arrest the planners of a heinous massacre of the
5 Serbian people. The Muslims and the Croats were politically and
6 militarily organised through the territory of Sanski Most municipality in
7 their local communities, where they had set up detachments," et cetera.
8 As far as you were aware, Judge, was there any planning by you or
9 anyone that you knew of a massacre of the Serbian people?
10 A. No, there wasn't.
11 Q. It carries on to talk about the units being part of the Bihac
12 Cazin Territorial Defence. You had about 2.000 armed men and intended to
13 arm a further 4.000. Arms from SDA leaders, who obtained them through
14 various channels. The best organised and most inveterate extremists were
15 the Muslims in Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, Mahala, and Trnovo. The principal
16 leaders and ideologists in all Muslim villages were the imams and SDA
18 And then this: "Following a director from Sarajevo and organised
19 by Durakovic's SDP party, they set up a peace movement, the so-called
20 Peace League. The aim of this movement was to put the brigade and the
21 Serbian people out of action so that they could gain time and additionally
22 arm and equip their forces and then set out against the Serbs, take power
23 by military means, and establish control over the territory. In the Peace
24 League, the chief activists were the wealthiest and most renowned Muslims
25 whom the Serbs had trusted to a certain extent until then."
1 Now, you told us, Judge, that you were a member of this peace
2 movement. Was the aim of this movement to put the brigade and the Serbian
3 people out of action, et cetera, et cetera?
4 A. I was a member of the Peace League in Sanski Most. The objective
5 of the Peace League was to ensure that the citizens gained trust, trusted
6 each other, to make it possible for them to live together and to help them
7 organise against the warmongerers, et cetera. That was the league's main
8 objective. And the Peace League was a multi-ethnic organisation.
9 Q. All right. And then finally this: The documents found show that
10 they intended to commit genocide against the Serbian people, kill them,
11 expel them, and create a Muslim state in these parts. All renowned Serbs
12 and their families were to be killed and hanged in the park in Sanski
13 Most. Serbian girls and women were to be put in brothels to bear
14 offspring to the Mujahedin and janissary. Sharia laws and government were
15 to be introduced as in Iran. Male Serbian children were to be circumcised
16 and brought up according to Islamic laws and principles."
17 Was that what your aim was?
18 A. This is absurd. This is horrible propaganda. This was published
19 in the media at the beginning of the aggression against Sanski Most. This
20 was broadcast over the Serbian radio, and when the inspectors interrogated
21 the prisoners, or rather, the imprisoned citizens, they spoke about this
22 kind of stupidity. This is the worst kind of stupidity. This was done by
23 those who felt the hatred, those who wanted blood and war and who
24 encouraged people to go to war. This is fascist ideology. This is
1 Q. And then the pamphlet or whatever it is goes on to talk about your
2 designs being foiled by the arrival of the brigade and then again
3 describes the various operations.
4 Could we now, please, go then to just to note again the next
5 document, P747, at divider 23, was a document submitted by you to the
6 Office of the Prosecutor; is that correct?
7 A. I think it is.
8 Q. The next document, please, P748, at the next divider, at number
9 24. This document is a conclusion of the assembly, within the Crisis
10 Staff or war staff seems to have gone. It signed by Rasula, 26th of
11 February, 1993, the decision on the exhumation of remains in the cemetery
12 in the town's centre beside the mosque and the cemetery in Zdena is hereby
13 adopted and must include an exhumation in the cemetery near the public
14 utility enterprise."
15 I think you told us already about the cemetery in the town's
16 centre. The cemetery in Zdena, where was that?
17 A. Zdena. It's a neighbourhood. It's a part of the town. It's
18 about approximate one and a half kilometres away from the town centre.
19 Q. And was that -- yes. I think again we can see that on the map
20 marked in the direction of Bosanska Krupa. Was that a Muslim cemetery?
21 A. Yes, it was a Muslim cemetery, and also the one near the public
22 utility enterprise. These are all Muslims cemeteries.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want for the record to object
24 to this and any subsequent documents, because I think from now on they're
25 all outside the period of the indictment, and I frankly don't think they
1 shed light on anyone's state of mind which would make them admissible at
2 all. They're talking about specific events that can't possibly be charged
3 in the indictment because they're outside the period of the indictment.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but, Mr. Ackerman, I only partly see your
5 point, because we're talking of an order or a decision on the exhumation
6 of remains, dated 26th February 1993. Presumably, as I take it, we're
7 talking of persons that died earlier and were buried, and therefore we
8 need to establish further what this is all about, to see whether it's
9 relevant or not. If we're talking of persons who died or were killed or
10 whatever outside of the period we're talking about, yes, you're right.
11 But more or less, I mean, I find this document here as one which calls for
12 some explanation. Why would Nedeljko Rasula, president of the Municipal
13 Assembly of Sanski Most, on the 26th of February, 1993, proclaim this
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it refers back to also an earlier
16 decision within 1992 in respect of the cemetery in the town centre, where
17 there was an order given that it should be -- or there's a -- I'm just
18 trying to remember which document it was - that the remains -- the
19 cemetery should be --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: What was the purpose of -- why would an allegedly
21 Serb president of the Municipal Assembly in 1993 order the exhumation of
22 corpses from -- I mean, there must be a reason. I mean, I can't speculate
23 on what the reason is, so please --
24 MS. KORNER: I will ask the witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Please put the question to the witness.
1 MS. KORNER:
2 Q. When you returned to Sanski Most --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: That maybe will provide you, Mr. Ackerman, with an
5 MS. KORNER: All right.
6 Q. First of all, can I deal with it this way: When you returned to
7 Sanski Most in 1995, you've already told us what happened to the town
8 centre cemetery. What had happened to the other two cemeteries that are
9 mentioned here?
10 A. The two other cemeteries had also been desecrated. The goal was
11 to remove any evidence, any trace, of the Islamic faith and culture. So
12 the old cemeteries had to be removed. And since they did a new zoning
13 plan, the land was to be used for some buildings. I think that we had a
14 decision of the Crisis Staff yesterday. I remember that the Mahala area
15 was already foreseen for the construction of some buildings. They changed
16 the names of the neighbourhoods or of the parts of the town. The goal was
17 to remove anything that would be reminiscent of Bosniaks, Muslims, of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, because they said that that had to be a Serbian town.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you still object to the document, Mr. Ackerman?
20 A. In my testimony --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait, Judge.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think Your Honour was presuming that
23 it had something to do with persons who may have been killed during the
24 war, and it was an exhumation of those.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I was just asking for a clarification, because it
2 obviously begs the question that the municipal assembly is deciding for
3 the exhumation of three cemeteries. It doesn't say some remains;
4 exhumation of remains. So presumably it's the exhumation of everything
5 that is there.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it falls -- if there's any offence
7 here at all, it falls under desecration of religious facilities, and it's
8 in 1993, and that would not be within the indictment. These are graves
9 that the witness has told us are maybe as much as 300 years old, and so --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me ask one question to the Witness.
11 In your opinion, Judge, was this decision by way of implementation
12 of the previous decision of the Crisis Staff that you referred to earlier
13 and which was shown to you yesterday?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I wanted to
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed, Ms. Korner, please.
17 MS. KORNER: Can we now move to the next document.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: I take it, Your Honour that my objection is denied.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm sorry. Implicitly so.
21 MS. KORNER: Can we move, then, and there are only two more
22 documents, P749, please.
23 Q. Now, again, I think, Judge, this is a document that you personally
24 handed to a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor in 1996.
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Could you tell us where you found it, or where it was found?
2 A. The public security station in Sanski Most.
3 Q. And the document consists of a certificate in respect of this
4 gentleman Mile Strbac, I hope, and then a statement, or a record of an
5 interview with this man on the 22nd of March, 1993. And it regards his
6 involvement in the planting of explosives in houses belonging to non-Serbs
7 in the various areas. Can you tell us: Are these areas that are
8 mentioned - Husinovci, Donji and Gornji Kamengrad? Are they in the Sanski
9 Most municipality?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour. If you look at the dates, it's
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, but --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I just want a clarification from Mr. Ackerman,
16 because since before he said this document and others which will be
17 following, whether you are objecting to this one, 749.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
20 MS. KORNER: It's clear, Your Honour --
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I better say something about that.
22 MS. KORNER: It refers to 1992, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know, but if you can avoid the --
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Other than an objection that may have been made at
25 the beginning of the case, no.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
2 MS. KORNER:
3 Q. If we look briefly at the contents of this interview with this
4 man, who was a policeman, apparently, and he talked about involvement in
5 planting of explosives. He says his involvement in the plan began in
6 March 1992, when he went to Knin to train in handling explosive devices,
7 and he names the people who went with him. And then underlined in the
8 translation, as indeed in the original:
9 "I was told that the training was being carried out on the orders
10 of the Sanski Most SDS, whose party activists from Suhaca sent us on the
11 course. When the course finished, we came to Sanski Most to start
12 planting explosives in houses and buildings owned mainly by Muslims and,
13 more precisely, their leaders and extremists."
14 And then he asked why he was being interviewed like this. And he
15 says, at the bottom:
16 "What I shall say, I say to you personally, but will not confirm
17 it anywhere, because I believe that I have done nothing wrong, nothing for
18 which I should bear responsibility. My activities were all under the
19 auspices of the SDS and, later, the 6th Krajina Brigade."
21 "Before I joined the reserve police force I was involved and
22 active in the case of the mining of somebody called Hasib Kamber's vehicle
23 in the Narodni front suburb. A herbal remedy shop belonging to Dr. Dervis
24 Cavic [phoen], again in the same place, and a pastry shop.
25 The doctor, is that the doctor that was in Manjaca with you that
1 you spoke about? You have to say yes.
2 A. Yes, and Hasib Kamber was the secretary of the SDA party and he
3 was killed. He was in prison and then he was killed and his body was
4 found in the mass grave in Trnovo.
5 Q. And are you aware of these activities against these people that he
6 refers to? Did you hear about them at the time?
7 A. As an investigating judge, I attended the on-site investigations
8 in these cases, unfortunately, and I was able to see with my own eyes that
9 this was indeed the case. Such explosions at that time, there were 44
10 such explosions.
11 Q. And then he talks about mining houses and the mosque and the house
12 of various other people, and he mentions other incidents. Then at the end
13 he says:
14 "As for how we got the explosives, I hereby state that they were
15 procured through the army from Korcanica, where they were stored. It
16 was mainly TNT. I also do not wish to mention the people through whom I
17 procured the explosives. I hereby state that the explosives found on us,
18 which were taken from a warehouse called Dolinica, owned by the
19 Kamengrad mine, were not using for mining," and so on and so forth.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: May we return just for a moment, because I've been
23 doing a bit of research here. The document that I originally objected
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: And that is P748A.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Was represented to be, both by the witness and
4 Ms. Korner, and I think inadvertently - I'm not suggesting anything other
5 than that - to be the carrying out of a prior decision by the Crisis
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I heard, yes.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: In fact, the prior document in that regard was 728,
9 and it was a report from the municipal civilian protection staff. And
10 what it says with regard to that - and it's pretty clear that's what was
11 being referred to - on page 3, "That the exhumation and dislocation of the
12 cemetery next to the town mosque will begin after the adoption of
13 appropriate decisions in the Municipal Assembly."
14 And what we see then next is a decision of the Municipal Assembly
15 which does not take place until 1993, which I again suggest to you puts it
16 clearly outside the indictment.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Was this the document, Ms. Korner?
18 MS. KORNER: Yes. I'm sure it's right. I didn't have an
19 opportunity to go back and check, but in our submission, it makes no
20 odds. Clearly it was in the contemplation of the civil defence unit that
21 that's what was going to be ordered and they got around to ordering it in
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman, for your comment,
24 which will be taken in consideration of, together with what Ms. Korner has
25 remarked in regard.
1 MS. KORNER: And then --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The paragraph is page -- page 3. Okay. Thank you.
3 MS. KORNER: And then --
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just to be clear, it's page 3 of that
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: In the paragraph A in the town, near the end of
8 that paragraph.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I've found it.
10 Yes, Ms. Korner.
11 MS. KORNER: Then the final document that I would like you to look
12 at, please, Judge, Prosecutor's Exhibit 752, at divider 28.
13 Q. This is a document dated the 28th of March, 1994, but refers back
14 to 1992 and talks about the clashes with what are described as Muslim
15 paramilitary formations in Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, Trnovo, Lukavica, and
16 Modranj [phoen]. And then we're back to the question of burial. A number
17 of Muslim extremists who had moved members of their families to other
18 areas before the outbreak of these clashes were killed in this fighting.
19 Because of this, they were buried in common graves by members of their own
20 people, neighbours, and other people employed by the competent organs.
21 Following the cessation of fighting in these areas, some people who took
22 part in burying those killed left our area in convoys on release from the
23 Manjaca camp and in other ways. Their information has been used under the
24 influence of Muslim media propaganda and the media of certain Western
25 countries for propaganda aimed at more successful fighting, increasing
1 international pressure against the Serbian people."
3 "The Muslim papers have quoted specific locations accompanied by
4 comments intended to portray the Serbian people as genocidal. To counter
5 such occurrences and to prevent, in good time, the use of such events for
6 propaganda purposes and pressure on the Serbian people, we believe that it
7 is necessary to suggest that the relevant institutions activate the
8 competent organs in Sanski Most to sanitise the locations in question."
9 Now, Judge, what actually happened? What did that actually mean?
10 A. This is a dispatch sent from the State Security Service, its
11 Prijedor detachment. It was sent -- well, this means that the locations
12 mentioned here must be sanitised, in other words, hidden, concealed,
13 removed someplace else. That's what it means. There is a whole series of
14 documents, and also a diary that indicates who actually did that, in
15 operational terms. And I can say to you that all the mass graves and all
16 the individual grave sites of all the victims, Bosniaks and Croats, in the
17 Sanski Most municipality were concealed. But we have managed to find --
18 identify most of them, although there remains a substantial number that
19 has yet to be uncovered, and we're working on it. These are the victims
20 from 1992.
21 Q. Yes. Were all the graves that were found the original burial
22 spots, or were there graves which have been exhumed which appear to be
23 secondary, in other words, the bodies have been removed from the first
24 burial place?
25 A. Mass grave sites that we exhumed, I think they were not secondary.
1 Q. Are you aware of any graves that were found that were secondary
2 graves, in other words, not the original burial sites? Not mass graves so
3 much, but other graves. If you're not -- say so straight away.
4 A. I had credible information, reliable information, about some grave
5 sites that I received from some persons who were actually involved in
6 burying the victims, and I did not find these grave sites, which means
7 that the bodies had been moved elsewhere from these sites.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Madame Faveau, I --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: She understands me anyway.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madame Faveau. I realise that where you're
14 situate is not exactly where you would like to be. Are you comfortable
15 there? In other words, in a situation where you're practically at a line
16 behind the witness, or would you like to change your place?
17 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, it
18 doesn't bother me, but perhaps it bothers the witness. If the witness
19 would prefer me to move over there, I can move.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, can I ask you to cooperate in this?
21 Because I -- I mean, I was defence counsel myself many years ago, and I
22 think it would be important for the counsel and witness to be able to face
23 each other.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Or if you prefer, Mr. Ackerman can sit there
1 and you can take this chair over here. Make sure, Madame Faveau, that you
2 have everything in operation and good working order. The microphone is
3 not switched on as yet.
4 Judge, you are going to be cross-examined by Madame
5 Faveau-Ivanovic, who represents the Defence of General Talic. Thank you.
6 Cross-examined by Ms. Ivanovic-Faveau:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day.
8 A. Good day.
9 Q. You said you went to Sanski Most on the 15th of October, that you
10 returned there 1995; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Where were you exactly before you returned to Sanski Most?
13 A. I was in Germany.
14 Q. When did you decide to return to Sanski Most?
15 A. When I saw on television, on CNN or EuroNews, when I saw that
16 Sanski Most was a free town and that it had been placed under the control
17 of the BH army. I saw the forces of the BH army on the square, and I saw
18 them crossing the bridge, and at that point I said, "I'm going to my town
19 now," and I went to my town, and I am still there today, and I'm never
20 going to leave my town.
21 Q. The army of the BH entered Sanski Most on the 10th of October,
22 1995; is that right?
23 A. The BH army entered on the 10th of October. It entered the town
24 in the afternoon or in the evening. That's on the outskirts of the
25 municipality of Sanski Most. I think the BH army had entered the
1 peripheral areas on the 17th of September and that there was fighting that
2 lasted for one month, fighting for Sanski Most. A little under a month.
3 Q. But you did decide to return to Sanski Most when the town of
4 Sanski Most had been liberated; is that correct?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. So in fact, you took the decision in five days' time, you packed
7 your bags, and you returned to Sanski Most?
8 A. Well, listen. I had taken the decision earlier on, the decision
9 to return to Sanski Most, but at that point in time, as soon as I realised
10 that the town was free, I went to Sanski Most.
11 Q. It took you five days; is that correct?
12 A. For the decision. Well, it took me five seconds.
13 Q. So from the time that you found out that Sanski Most had been
14 liberated, up until your return to Sanski Most, five days had passed?
15 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. When you returned, you carried out exhumations in the Sanski Most
17 area; is that correct?
18 A. Not immediately. First of all, I searched for graves. I examined
19 graves. I examined documents. I gathered documents. I carried out -- I
20 started with the exhumations a little later. Once certain preparations
21 had been made and once certain graveyards had already been located and
22 once I had informed the International Tribunal and the Office of the
23 Prosecutor in The Hague, when I had been given the agreement of certain
24 organs, their authorisation, once I had made all these preparations, I was
25 then able to start with the exhumations.
1 Q. Whose initiative was it to carry out these investigations?
2 A. The initiative. Well, listen, I'm, above all, a judge. My
3 official position was that of a judge in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I had been
4 appointed to the municipal court in Sanski Most and I was the president
5 of the Court. Due to my profession, it was my duty to perform such tasks.
6 And secondly, the War Presidency in Sanski Most, or rather, the presidency
7 of the municipality of Sanski Most, assigned me the task of getting
8 involved in this area, that is to say, of investigating -- carrying out
9 investigations into war crimes. And furthermore, in coordination with the
10 cantonal organs, with the judicial organs, the cantonal court, the
11 cantonal prosecution, I established a certain cooperation with these
12 organs and I was given a certain authority, a certain authorisation. So
13 that is basically it.
14 Q. Could you state when these investigations started?
15 A. Could you please be precise. Which investigations are you
16 referring to?
17 Q. The first investigation that you carried out when you returned to
18 Sanski Most. When exactly did this take place, the first investigation
19 which concerned the alleged war crimes?
20 A. Well, listen. Sometime around November I started investigating
21 the field -- carrying out investigations in the field to locate mass
22 graves. That was at the beginning of November. But in the second half of
23 October I had already started gathering documents, so I visited all the
24 institutions, all the buildings in which the Serbian authorities had
25 premises, so the Municipal Assembly, the buildings in which the political
1 parties had been, the police station, the public security station. And I
2 went to all the institutions. I then went to certain schools where
3 command -- units had been located, where the Serbian army had been
4 billeted, where their commands were located. I had visited many private
5 houses, many flats. The houses and flats belonged to certain individuals
6 who were important in Serbian politics, who had positions of importance in
7 the commands, in the government.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge --
9 A. And I gathered these documents in a very serious way.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was actually a very simple one. You
11 were just asked to specify, to indicate, a time, a period, when you first
12 started investigating these alleged war crimes. That was the question.
13 And you said sometime around November, and I think you should have stopped
14 there. Because otherwise we are never going to finish.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Your Honour, I started on the
16 first day, as soon as I entered the building of the Court, and I entered
17 on the 16th of October. It was on the 16th of October that I entered this
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's your answer, and Madame Faveau will
20 proceed to the next one, to the next question.
21 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And you have my authority, Madame Faveau, just as I
23 had given my authority to the Prosecutor on previous occasions, because
24 sometimes it does happen that the witness not just the Judge, but all
25 witnesses, go into tangents sometimes. If you think that is happening,
1 you can just look at me. Either you do directly or ask for my
2 intervention and I will do it. Because otherwise we'll never finish.
3 Yes, Madame Faveau, please.
4 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation].
5 Q. So you started with the exhumations in the Sanski Most area. Was
6 the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal involved in these
8 A. Yes, the Office of the Prosecutor was involved in the exhumations.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Madame Faveau, we had a document or two
10 yesterday with the names even of the representatives of the Office of the
12 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I know that you did this, in fact, but since when have you been
14 cooperating with the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?
15 A. The Office of the Prosecutor of which Tribunal?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Of this Tribunal.
17 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation]
18 Q. The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.
19 A. You mean this Tribunal. I apologise. Well, I can't give you a
20 precise date right now, but I think I started cooperating immediately, as
21 soon as I obtained the relevant documents, which we have examined here
22 too. I immediately established contact with them.
23 Q. Was the AID agency involved in the exhumations?
24 A. In the exhumation of the mass graves, no, it wasn't involved in
1 Q, Did the AID agency ask you at a certain point not to
2 provide the Office of the Prosecutor with the documents directly, but through
3 the Agency?
4 A. When I had gathered certain documents - and there were many such
5 documents - I examined them and I even provided AID with some of the
6 documents. I provided the AID in Bihac with all of the documents. So
7 there are some documents which I haven't even managed to examine, but I
8 personally took some of the documents to Bihac. I drove there in my own
9 car and I submitted them to AID for the International Court. And I have a
10 record of the documents that were submitted. And this is from Sanski
12 After the documents had been in my hands for a certain period of
13 time, and after they had been examined by investigators from this
14 Tribunal, AID asked me to provide them with the other documents, but I
15 didn't want to do this, because it had been examined by the Tribunal and I
16 still have these original documents.
17 Q. Did you personally cooperate with AID?
18 A. What do you mean exactly?
19 Q. Was there cooperation of any kind between you and AID?
20 A. The AID is a service, and it was my duty to send documents through
21 the AID, to send documents to the Office of the Prosecutor of The Hague
22 through the AID. This was the only means of sending documents. And in
23 this sense, yes, I did cooperate with the AID, and the cooperation was
24 correct. And similarly, AID officials would ask me, since I'm from Sanski
25 Most and since I had also been in a camp and I knew people and I had
1 information, they would sometimes ask me for certain information, and in
2 that sense I did cooperate with the AID, if that's the kind of cooperation
3 you had in mind.
4 Q. Is it exact to say that the AID agency questions witnesses to find
5 out information concerning the war in Bosnia?
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just interrupt for one moment?
7 And it's simply this, just to save time, if it helps. If Madame Faveau or
8 Mr. Ackerman want to submit any matters for agreement on how AID and this
9 office cooperate, then we're perfectly happy too deal with it rather than
10 go through this tortuous process with the Judge, because it's
11 self-evident. That AID takes statements because the Defence have these
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I would not involve Mr. Ackerman in this because
14 he's not part of it in any case.
15 MS. KORNER: No. I'm just saying it may be a method of shortening
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And secondly, I think the witness has been asked a
18 question, and if he -- it's a sort of a question that if he's familiar
19 with the details, he can answer by either yes or no and that will be it
20 and we can proceed, Ms. Korner. We actually all know what the answer is,
21 but ...
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's what I mean. It's a bit -- all
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Judge, you are requested to answer to this
25 simple question: Is it exact to say that the AID agency questions
1 witnesses to find out information concerning the war in Bosnia? Please
2 answer -- if you know, please answer yes or no.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you personally take statements from witnesses on behalf of
7 A. On behalf of the AID, no, never.
8 Q. Do you know someone called Zijad Ibric?
9 A. I don't know whether I have to answer this question.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Why do you think or do you propose you shouldn't
11 answer this question? If need be, we can go into private session for a
12 moment and you could perhaps explain.
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Are we going to go into
15 private session or are we going to continue like this?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suppose so. If there is a reason why the
17 witness doesn't want to answer the question, he must give us a reason. So
18 we go into private session for -- until necessary. Wait. When I tell
19 you, please.
20 Are we in private session?
21 [Private session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So the question, Judge, is: Do you know someone
10 called Zijad Ibric? And pardon me if I'm not pronouncing --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: The next question, Madame Faveau.
13 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Does this person work for the AID?
15 A. I think so.
16 Q. Were you informed that in a case that came before this Tribunal,
17 the Omarska case, were you informed that a statement which was taken by
18 Zijad Ibric, that the authenticity of this statement had been questioned?
19 MS. KORNER: No. I object, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the basis of the objection, Ms. Korner?
21 MS. KORNER: The objection is: What happened in another case,
22 whether there was objection taken to the authenticity, is irrelevant to
23 this case unless there's some point of relevance shown that ties up with
24 this witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But before that, there's even another matter,
1 because if we're talking of a statement, that statement must be brought
2 here and shown to the witness in any case.
3 MS. KORNER: If it is to be suggested to this witness that he
4 was involved in the taking of a statement and there's going to be matters
5 raised in this case about it, but we cannot possibly investigate what
6 happened in another case in this manner.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Ms. Korner is right.
8 What is your allegation? I mean, perhaps you can rephrase your
9 question to Judge Draganovic, and if there is an allegation that you are
10 making, then make it straight away. You have a right to put a direct
11 question to him. In other words, if you are alleging that the witness was
12 involved in the taking of a statement which was eventually contested as to
13 its authenticity or whatever, you are perfectly entitled to put the
14 question to him.
15 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I wouldn't go that far, I'm
16 afraid. She can put a statement to him saying was he involved in the
17 taking of it and she can reopen the whole matter if indeed there was a
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We can bring the statement to start with.
20 MS. KORNER: Absolutely.
21 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours,
22 it's not a matter of simply contesting a statement; it's a matter of a
23 graphological report that had been made. I tried to obtain this document,
24 and apparently it disappeared, so I wasn't able to obtain it. It's
25 apparently document D29/4 in the Omarska case.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Omarska, you mean the Kvocka case, no?
2 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. I don't know -- I'm sorry that
3 Madame Faveau hasn't been able to obtain a report and we may be able to
4 get it from our files, but she hasn't answered the question: What is the
5 relevance to this witness of what may or may not have happened other case.
6 And secondly, what may or may not have happened in another case is not
7 admissible in the form in which she is trying to put it.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right, there, but perhaps my problem is
9 this, Ms. Korner: That as I read Madame Faveau, she thinks, or at least
10 for her, this particular document exhibited or made use of and then
11 contested in the Kvocka case is of some relevance, given this particular
12 moment when this particular witness is giving evidence. So what I need
13 from you, Madame Faveau, is to cross the Ts and put the dots on the Is and
14 tell us what, if there is, is the involvement of the witness in relation
15 to that particular document that the person that you mentioned earlier - I
16 forgot his name now - yes, Ibric, allegedly compiled or took. And then we
17 see after that how to go about it. But initially if you're going to ask
18 the witness a question in relation to a document which is not before him,
19 you have to be very specific and very precise. And also, we need to know
20 whether he's aware of this statement, in any case.
21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think, before we go any further
22 with this, it may be as well if the -- we may have the break, but to
23 discuss this, because the witness is sitting here listening to this long
24 discussion and it's really a matter of law as to whether Madame Faveau can
25 proceed further.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not just a matter of law. It's also a matter
2 of questioning -- perhaps it's a simple question she can make.
3 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to
4 be very brief in order to bring this conversation to an end. Your
5 Honours, you know that we have been contesting an entire series of
6 documents from the AID. This witness at the request of the Prosecutor
7 examined all the documents, most of which came from the AID, and it is
8 only for this reason that I have asked him this question. In addition,
9 this document is one of the Prosecutor's documents, and unfortunately I do
10 not have it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but it's a document of the Prosecution in
12 another case, not in this case. So what's the relevance of the question?
13 I mean, perhaps you can ask the witness whether he has ever seen a
14 statement made by or compiled by this other gentleman, provided there is
15 some relevance of that statement to this case. If you merely are
16 intending to attack the credibility of all the documentation originating
17 from AID, that's a completely different matter.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's what I object to. It goes back
19 to what Mr. Ackerman was saying yesterday. Whether rightly or wrongly,
20 the general sweeping allegation is being repeated that anything submitted
21 by AID, prima facie, is a forgery unless they can prove the opposite.
22 Now, that's fine. It's not a proper method to adopt. If there is a
23 specific document that it is going to be suggested by either defendant to
24 this witness that he knows something about it and that it is a forgery
25 then fine let it be put, but a general sweeping statement that everything
1 submitted by AID is, in our submission, not a proper way to cross-examine
2 and not admissible.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, I think we need to take the half-hour break
4 now. We'll resume at 1.00. In the meantime, think about it a little bit,
5 because I think it's a case of either rephrasing your question or moving
6 to the next question. Thanks.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
9 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
10 will go on to another question, but I will, however, try to explain what
11 is it that I wanted to do. We are not challenging all the documents
12 coming from AID simply because they come from AID, but there is a certain
13 number that we do challenge because they have some other material defect,
14 and the events at another trial confirm our opinion. So my opinion was
15 quite simple: It was whether our witness is aware of the fact that some
16 of the documents coming from AID have been brought into question.
17 But I would like to now go into another issue.
18 Q. On the 23rd of April, during our hearing, you said that the ethnic
19 communities had lived together in Sanski Most and that mixed marriages
20 were quite numerous; is that correct?
21 A. Please, first of all, I have been thinking about what you have
22 been saying. I cannot concentrate on your question -- your statements
23 that you just made.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget the statement. You've got nothing to do with
25 it, Judge. Don't worry about it. Concentrate on this question that has
1 just been put to you, and I will read out the question to you myself.
2 Counsel has told you that on the 23rd of April, during our hearing, you
3 said that the ethnic communities had lived together in Sanski Most and
4 that mixed marriages were quite numerous, and she wants to know from you
5 whether you stand by that statement, whether that statement is correct.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is correct.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
8 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Were there mixed marriages in Mahala?
10 A. Yes, there were.
11 Q. During the same hearing on the 23rd of April, page 4853 of the
12 French transcript, it is stated that you said that the Mahala, the
13 population in Mahala, was 100 per cent Muslim. How can you then explain
14 this statement of yours if the population was 100 per cent Muslim, how
15 could there have been any mixed marriages?
16 A. I wasn't thinking of mixed marriages, but now that you ask me if
17 there were any mixed marriages in Mahala, I do know some Serb women who
18 had married Muslims living in Mahala -- Bosniaks, rather.
19 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I would now like the
20 registrar to show the witness Exhibit P757.2, and I have to apologise to
21 the Judges and to the Prosecution for not having included this document in
22 my list. This is the map of the Sanski Most municipality, depicting the
23 ethnic composition of the population.
24 Q. You have told us that the map indicates some data that are not
25 completely correct. You said that there are some villages that are listed
1 as being Serb villages, whereas they in fact were not Serb villages. Do
2 you remember having said that?
3 A. Kasapnica is mentioned here.
4 Q. No, it is not necessary for you to explain all this again. I just
5 wanted to ask you if you still stand by what you have said earlier.
6 A. Yes, the way I said it.
7 Q. And that goes for the village of Poljak too, which is indicated
8 here as being a Croat village, and in your opinion it was a mixed
9 population village; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The map also shows, I think in the upper corner, the ethnic
12 composition of the population as of 1995; is that correct? And it
13 is also quite visible from the map that the majority of the population in
14 1995 was of Serb ethnic origin; is that correct?
15 A. I didn't understand you. Could you please repeat your question?
16 Q. On that map, the ethnic composition of the population in the
17 Sanski Most municipality in 1995 is shown, and if you look at the data
18 shown there, you will see that the predominant majority of the population
19 in Sanski Most municipality in 1995 was of Serb ethnic origin; is that
21 A. Yes, that's how it was, until the 10th of October, 1995. So it's
22 valid for 1995 until that date, when the BH army put -- or, in other
23 words, when Sanski Most was liberated and when the Bosnia-Herzegovinian
24 army entered Sanski Most. After that, the ethnic composition of the
25 population changed.
1 Q. Can you please tell us whether this map shows any specific date,
2 or is it just dated 1995?
3 A. There is no date here.
4 MS. KORNER: I think I ought to just remind everybody that this
5 was produced by Mr. Inayat from the figures. It's not an official in
6 that sense, document. That's all I'm saying. If there are any questions
7 about its accuracy, Mr. Inayat will have to deal with it.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner. It's not an official map
9 released --
10 MS. KORNER: It's not an official map --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Or like some of the others --
12 MS. KORNER: That's right. It was an attempt to use a computer to
13 demonstrate the figures.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
15 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly
16 what Ms. Korner has said, that would mean that this map is wrong.
17 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... all I'm saying
18 is how this map was produced is something to ask Mr. Inayat what figures
19 he used as opposed -- it's been given to the witness as a totally accurate
20 depiction. It's -- I think Mr. Inayat is the best person to deal with
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think the witness has given a clear answer in
23 the sense that after the 10th of October of 1995, the demographic
24 situation changed. I mean, so we can have two maps, or two diagrams: One
25 pre-10th October and one post-10th October we'll probably be contesting
1 and fighting and arguing on that too. So let's proceed. Yes, please.
2 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I will ask a direct
4 Q. Sir, do you agree with the fact that there are some inaccurate --
5 there is some inaccurate information contained in this map?
6 A. I couldn't confirm that. I can only say that there are some
7 omissions that I pointed out here, and they concern the two villages that
8 I mentioned. But we did specify that if the village of Kasapnica is
9 joined by the village of Kljevci, then one could say that it was a Serb
10 village, because it is quite close to it, because the Croat population had
11 already left Kasapnica at an earlier date, and Poljak had a mixed
12 population. It is hard to be very precise without the appropriate data,
13 but I think in essence this map does reflect the situation as it was in,
14 let's say, 1991, if we disregard the graphs here. They are valid for
15 1991, the ones for 1995 are also valid, but after October. We have to
16 bear that in mind. But now the situation in Sanski Most is quite
17 different, I mean the demographic situation. So the map can be used, and
18 any errors are minor. And I, after all, explained them.
19 Q. How many Serbs did you find in Sanski Most upon your return in
20 October 1995?
21 A. I didn't count them, but there were a few of them.
22 Q. On the 23rd of April, during our hearing, you spoke about the
23 constituencies in Bosnia. You said that there were seven constituencies,
24 one of which was Banja Luka. The constituencies, did they correspond to
25 the communities of municipalities that are associations of municipalities
1 that existed at the time in Bosnia?
2 A. With regions, yes.
3 Q. And one of these regions was the Banja Luka region; is that
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. Yesterday you said that you had not received your salary from the
7 month of February onwards. Your colleague Serbs, did they receive any
9 A. They started receiving their salaries as soon as we were expelled
10 from the court.
11 Q. Between February and May 1992, did your Serb colleagues receive
12 their salaries in that period?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So the treatment was the same for everyone as regards the
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Now I would like the
18 registrar to show the witness the Exhibit 700. I think that on page 3 of
19 that document there is a pamphlet entitled "Dear Brother Serbs."
20 Q. Have you found this document? Do you have it before you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At our hearing on the 24th of April, you described this leaflet as
23 an act of Serbian propaganda; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know where this document was found?
1 A. This document?
2 Q. Yes, this document.
3 A. In Sanski Most.
4 Q. Do you know the exact location where the document was found?
5 A. I think it was in the premises of the Serbian Democratic Party,
6 but I may be wrong on this account. But at any rate, I do have its
7 original in my office in Sanski Most.
8 Q. Do you know who found this document?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. If you look at this document, would you agree with me that this
11 document was written in the Ijekavian dialect?
12 A. Do you purport to say that Serbs did not use the Ijekavian dialect
13 and that they didn't use the Roman alphabet in writing? Well, that's my
14 answer to you, in fact.
15 Q. Sir, I don't think anything, I don't purport to say anything; I'm
16 merely and asking you whether this document was written in the Ijekavian
17 dialect, that's all?
18 A. Yes, it's written in the Ijekavian.
19 Q. On the 23rd of April you were telling us about the members of the
20 6th Brigade who were fighting in Croatia, and you stated that while they
21 fought in Croatia, that their companies paid them. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The war in Croatia happened in 1991; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Bosnia, in 1991, was still a part of Yugoslavia; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the 6th Brigade was a brigade that was a part of the JNA; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes, it was.
6 Q. And the JNA was the Yugoslav army; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it was the Yugoslav army.
8 Q. Were there any Croats and Muslims that responded to the call-up in
10 A. Well, the call-up -- the call for the mobilisation. Let me say
11 this: The 6th Krajina Brigade was a unit, a brigade whose composition
12 corresponded to the ethnic composition of the population. So people got
13 the call-up papers and they responded. However, as far as I know - and
14 you have to take into account that I'm not a military expert. I did not
15 really deal with this issue in detail, but I lived in the city, in the
16 town, and I was also a conscript. I had my own military assignment. So I
17 knew something about it. When people had to go to the theatres of
18 operation in Croatia, to be more specific, in Titova Korenica, I think
19 that people deserted en masse, conscripts of Croat and Bosniak ethnic
20 background deserted en masse. I don't know of anyone remaining in the
21 brigade, apart from one officer, who was in Croatia, in the theatre of war
22 there. He was a Bosniak. I don't know of anyone else.
23 So what I know is this people abandoned the unit en masse, people
24 returned their weapons and equipment to the command of the 6th Krajina
25 Brigade, and they returned all the equipment that it had.
1 As I have already said, I'm not really an expert for these
2 military matters and it happened a long time ago, so I've now told you
3 all that I can remember about this.
4 Q. The person that you just spoke about, that Croat or Bosniak who
5 remained in the army, was he a professional soldier or was it a mobilised
6 person who otherwise was employed in another company?
7 A. He was a reserve officer. He was in the engineers. So he was in
8 the theatre of war in Croatia. He was engaged on bridge and road
9 construction, or perhaps demolition. I don't know. I mean, he himself
10 probably knows what he was doing. I know that he spent the rest --
11 throughout the period of the war, he was in Serbia, and he returned to
12 Sanski Most recently. I don't know about the others. I think that the
13 people deserted en masse in 1991. I know a lot of people - my friends,
14 officers, reserve officers and soldiers, and in 1992 they had problems
15 because of that.
16 Q. Let me go back to that person, the Croat or the Bosniak who went
17 to fight in Croatia. Can you tell me: Was he employed in a company in
18 Sanski Most?
19 A. As far as I know, as far as I can remember, he had his own private
21 Q. You said that quite a few Bosniaks and Croats deserted, that
22 virtually all of them deserted. You also said that in 1992 people began
23 to be fired from their jobs in Sanski Most. Does it mean that no measures
24 were taken against the persons who deserted in 1991?
25 A. I don't think that any measures were taken.
1 Q. You are a judge. Do you agree with the statement that according
2 to the Yugoslav law, failure to respond to the call-up is a criminal
4 A. I don't agree that in this specific case it was a criminal
5 offence. It was not a criminal offence.
6 Q. In 1991, was the federal Penal Code still in force in
8 A. Yes, it was still in force.
9 Q. Is it not correct that Article 214 of that Act foresees punishment
10 for the failure to respond to the call-up?
11 A. Yes, it did stipulate such punishment. I wouldn't now go into the
12 reasons which lead me not to think that it's a criminal offence.
13 Q. You do agree that the Federal Penal Code provided that this
14 anticipate act was an illicit act and that this act was sanctioned? I'm
15 talking about the failure to respond to mobilisation. I'm not talking
16 about any specific cases.
17 A. You insist on me speaking about this. Please, spare me, because
18 if you force someone to go to war to fight against people in Croatia, then
19 if a person deserts, that is no crime.
20 Q. That's your interpretation, but I'm going to move on to another
22 A. Very well. That would be better.
23 Q. You mentioned terrorist acts that had been committed against the
24 Croatian population. Do you remember speaking about that?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. And you said that you yourself went to the site of these crimes.
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. And you spoke about the debris of these explosive devices,
4 including rifle-launched grenades; is that correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. You did your military service. Could you explain to us how
7 rifle-launched grenades are used exactly?
8 A. You're asking me how they are used? You use a rifle, a
9 semi-automatic rifle.
10 Q. No. My question wasn't how they were used, but for what.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Your question was translated -- your question,
12 Madame Faveau, could be an interpretation error. I don't know. But your
13 question was: Could you explain to us how rifle-launched grenades are
14 used exactly? So if that's not the question that you are asking -- now
15 you're asking --
16 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I think that -- what I'm
17 interested in --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: What they are used for?
19 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Exactly.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Why would one resort to rifle-launched grenade and
21 not a hand-launched grenade? I would imagine, because I'm not a military
22 man, I know nothing about the subject. Perhaps you could enlighten us, if
23 you know. If you don't know, just say "I don't know."
24 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I apologise.
25 Q. If I could be more precise, it concerns an explosive device which
1 is launched in this manner?
2 A. This grenade is put on a semi-automatic rifle and it's fired from
3 this rifle. In the Kruhare settlement, where there are Croatian houses
4 too, I went there to carry out an investigation. Two rifle-launched
5 grenades had been fired there from a precise point, from a certain house,
6 and they had been fired in the direction of a certain house. We found
7 traces on the entrance to the house. One the of grenades had exploded and
8 one grenade had not exploded, if I am precise. That is one investigation.
9 If necessary, I can mention others.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it may be our fault because we are not being
11 very precise. What the question really is: Why would one want to use a
12 rifle-launched grenade and not some other kind of grenade? What's the
13 advantage of using a rifle-launched grenade? What's so characteristic,
14 what's so important, what's so advantageous about this kind of grenade, or
15 the method of launching such a grenade? Is it because it reaches
16 further? I don't know. I mean, I don't know anything about the subject.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not a military
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So if you don't know, say "I don't know" and leave
20 it at that. If she had asked me the question, I would have told you,
21 Madame Faveau, find someone else, because I don't know how to answer -- I
22 don't know the answer to that. I mean ...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly.
24 MS. KORNER: If Madame Faveau is moving to other subject, there's
25 a matter I want to raise before the end of this session which has arisen.
1 If she is still going on, that's fine, but if not ...
2 JUDGE AGIUS: And also there was something else I wanted to tell
4 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I still haven't got my
5 answer. I shall put the question another way.
6 Q. Could you describe the damage caused by this rifle-launched
8 A. No, I can't.
9 Q. Would you agree if I said that rifle-launched grenades don't leave
10 very important -- don't cause very important damage to houses and that
11 they have a different purpose?
12 A. They kill. They explode and they kill.
13 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I have one more question
14 about this subject and then I will stop.
15 Q. You said that you were able to establish that this debris was as a
16 result of -- that this debris came from the military factory in Bugojno.
17 Do you remember saying that?
18 A. I was talking about the explosions of certain bombs.
19 Q. So not all the debris came from this factory; is that correct?
20 A. Could you please put that question a little more precisely? Could
21 you reformulate it?
22 Q. All the debris that you found, did all the debris come from the
23 Bugojno factory?
24 A. In the case of some explosions, I went to carry out an on-site
25 investigation, in cases where hand grenades had been thrown, so there is
1 certain information about this. And on several occasions, in several
2 cases, I was able to determine that the hand grenades were of military
3 origin. They came from the military factory in Bugojno.
4 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I think it would be better
5 if I stopped now, because I'm not going to finish.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madame Faveau. We will continue with
7 your evidence on Tuesday morning, not Monday, for a very simple reason you
8 may have been told already, that Monday is a feast day, a public holiday
9 here, and we won't be working.
10 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a piece
11 of information that might be of use. I think that, unfortunately, I will
12 need an entire session on Tuesday. This might be useful information for
13 Ms. Korner.
14 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, unfortunately it's too late to
15 stop the witness coming. He's arriving this weekend. It can't be
16 helped. I'm sure that Defence counsel will help us out with VWS, who are
17 likely to shoot us, but that's the problem.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think --
19 MS. KORNER: The witness can leave, Your Honour. The matter I
20 want to raise doesn't affect him.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge. See you again on Tuesday.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's what Madame Faveau said at the
25 beginning of the session, that on behalf of General Talic they're not
1 challenging all the documents coming from AID, simply because they come
2 from AID, but there are a number we do challenge because they are false.
3 If that is right, Your Honour --
4 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't look
5 at the transcript. If that's what it says in the transcript, that's not
6 what I said. I said that we contest a certain number of documents from
7 the AID. If there are other defects, material defects in them. That's
8 what I said. That is to say, there is no signature, no stamp, no date, no
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's completely different.
11 MS. KORNER: That's a different matter.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: From what I heard as well. I take your word, Madame
13 Faveau. I don't even doubt that for a moment. But I fail to understand
14 how what you said just now was translated or interpreted as meaning amount
15 to forgeries.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the reason I wouldn't have trouble then,
17 because --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I can leave it, Ms. Korner.
19 MS. KORNER: No, no. There is a point to be made. I'm sorry,
20 Your Honour. That if there is a suggestion, and I think there must be,
21 because otherwise the line of cross-examination doesn't make sense either,
22 that certain documents that we have produced in this case are forgeries of
23 some kind or another, in other words, that they are not what they purport
24 to be on their face, then I think that these documents must be put to this
25 witness, or a witness, and not just the general allegation. Because this
1 witness is in a clear position to deal with originals. Your Honour will
2 recall that one of the matters that he was asked about, he said they come
3 from a book which is still in Sanski Most. So, Your Honour, my only --
4 all I'm saying is if there are going to be -- if the Defence are going to
5 be saying that documents we have produced from Sanski Most are from
6 evidence they have, or instructions, whatever it may be, forgeries, then
7 that ought to be put.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: If I recall well that this question arose in the
9 very first week of our labours here in this case, because there was an
10 allegation that there were some forgeries. That much I remember very
12 MS. KORNER: Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't remember how we dealt with it, what was said
14 beyond that, because more or less the whole admissibility aspect in a
15 very broad manner, admitting everything and then reserving the position of
16 the Defence --
17 MS. KORNER: I agree, Your Honour?
18 A. There were sweeping assertions made that documents that come from
19 AID, on the face of it, could be forgeries and weren't to be trusted.
20 That's fine. It's not fine, because I've already objected to that. But
21 if there are specified documents which it's going to be suggested at some
22 stage are in fact forgeries and there is a witness there who is able to
23 deal with the provenance of those documents, then it's my submission
24 that that should be put to the witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madame Faveau.
1 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to
2 reassure you and to reassure Ms. Korner, this seems obvious to me, but
3 unfortunately I've already started my cross-examination. I've only been
4 cross-examining for one hour so I haven't had time to do anything.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I just wanted to raise it.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing I wanted to raise myself is very
7 simple. I met this morning with one of my legal assistants who is working
8 on the redaction of the decision on Rule 70. I would prefer if you will
9 agree that she approaches you by handing you a draft of what she is
10 suggesting ought to be redacted. Because I would feel more comfortable
11 when we discuss this if we already have an indication from you that you
12 agree with the proposed redactions. For example -- anyway, I have asked
13 her to mark the decision and approach you, and then please feed her back
14 as to -- and if we need to discuss it, then we discuss it; if we don't
15 need to discuss it -- I don't think there should be much controversy. But
16 there are some suggestions we she has made which in my opinion I would
17 rather hear what you have to say. Because if they don't need to be
18 redacted, they won't be redacted. If they need to be redacted -- for
19 example, if one of the accused filed motion confidentially or something
20 like that. I mean, it's ...
21 MR. ACKERMAN: The major force of my motion, Your Honour, was just
22 to try to reduce it to the pure legal findings and decisions.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you're probably going to agree with what she
25 MR. ACKERMAN: It has nothing to do with the humanitarian
1 organisation in my mind, at all.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, finally, I gave to the Defence yesterday
3 and to Your Honours a copy of the proposed redaction for the one Rule 92
5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. I'm not talking about that. I'm not
6 talking about that, I'm talking about the 70 one.
7 MS. KORNER: I know but I thought we finished with that.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
9 MS. KORNER: I've had no feedback from either the Court or the
10 Defence as to whether that's a suitable redaction.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I just -- it's taken her --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a disadvantage of being -- finding yourself
13 behind Mr. Ackerman. She was on her feet before you were, Mr. Ackerman.
14 MS. IVANOVIC-FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that
15 I will make life easier for you, because I agree with everything that has
16 been done, not because I agree but because I know that my position -- the
17 position I'm in is not acceptable, because our position is that this story
18 that has to do with Rule 70 and the witness who was brought here, this
19 should all be made public for several reasons, because I know that this
20 isn't possible, I will accept any redactions that the legal officer might
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
23 Mr. Ackerman.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: With regard to the 92 bis, and we should be out of
25 here, but with regard to the 92 bis, I just need a little bit of time. It
1 took the Prosecution a long time to redact it. I'd like a few minutes
2 to look at it.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So we adjourn until Monday --
4 until Tuesday, sorry, we won't bring you here Monday. My apologies to the
5 interpreters and the technicians for keeping you here beyond the time.
6 Thank you.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of
9 May 2002, at 9.00 a.m.