Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6635

1 Wednesday, 5 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, you can proceed to call the case,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

9 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

12 language that you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

14 Honour. I can hear you and I understand you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

16 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

17 language that you can understand?

18 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

19 I can hear you in a language that I understand.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, General Talic. You may sit down.

21 Appearances for the Prosecution.

22 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, assisted by case manager Denise

23 Gustin. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you. Thank you.

25 Appearances for Brdjanin.

Page 6636

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

2 I'm here with my co-counsel Milan Trbojevic --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Trbojevic.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Milan Trbojevic. Thank you. And our assistant

5 Marela Jevtovic. Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good afternoon to you.

7 And appearances for General Talic.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. I

9 am Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau. I represent General Talic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good afternoon to you.

11 And good afternoon to you, Dr. Sabanovic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The usher will give you the solemn

14 declaration. And if you could kindly read it out again once more, hoping

15 that this will be the last time you're doing that.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

18 and nothing but the truth.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Any preliminaries before we proceed with the

22 cross-examination?

23 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I thought Your Honour was

24 proceeding with the witness. I can deal with it and it's probably better

25 dealt with when the witness is finished, before the next witness comes in.

Page 6637

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

2 Mr. Ackerman, you may proceed or resume your cross-examination of

3 the witness.

4 Dr. Sabanovic, Mr. Ackerman will be continuing his

5 cross-examination of you.

6 Yesterday, Mr. Ackerman, you were in the process of referring the

7 witness, I think if I remember well, to document P754.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah. That will be next, although I've got one

9 other little thing -- two other little things I need to kind of revisit or

10 clear up before I get there.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: The first thing I'd like to look at is DB86. I'd

13 like the usher to bring it by me and then I'll send it on over to the

14 ELMO.

15 Okay. Take it over to the ELMO, please.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]

17 Q. Doctor, I have Exhibit DB86 back on the ELMO where you can see

18 it. And my question is: Do you see the infirmary on there where you

19 worked? Is it represented on that drawing?

20 A. I'm not sure. I think it is here, in front of us, of this fence.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, we need to put it on the ELMO and you

22 need to indicate the spot on the ELMO so that we can follow.

23 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You think that is the --


Page 6638

1 Q. Okay. Would you just put the letter "I" there with your initials

2 next to it, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. All right. You have written an "A" it likes like and you put your

5 initials there and that's fine. Okay. Thank you.

6 On your first day of testimony, June 3rd, at -- it's on page 60 of

7 the transcript -- you were referring to photograph number 8. And I guess

8 we ought to get P807 over to the ELMO so we can look at it, because it

9 might be important to do so.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: And put it so that we can see photograph number 8,

11 please, Mr. Usher.

12 Q. Sir, you'll see the photograph of a white building with a red roof

13 there. Underneath it says "infirmary" in English. And you told us the

14 other day, I believe, at page 60 of the transcript that that was the

15 infirmary --

16 A. I can see it.

17 Q. Yes. And that is the building you identified as the infirmary,

18 and also it contained there in the back the isolation cell; correct?

19 A. Well, that wouldn't be the infirmary.

20 Q. So this description here is wrong then. If that's -- if that says

21 "infirmary" there underneath that --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- that's incorrect.

24 Do you see on any of these pictures, do you see --

25 A. This isn't the infirmary.

Page 6639

1 Q. Okay. On any of these picture, do you see the infirmary? You can

2 look over -- look over at the document that's on the ELMO so you can see

3 every picture and tell me if you see the infirmary. Just look at the

4 document itself. If you do, what number is it?

5 A. The first infirmary was here.



8 Q. You have to put it back on the ELMO and point to it now?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Which was the first infirmary, or where was the

10 first infirmary, please?


12 Q. Okay. You're pointing to photograph number 6, the administration

13 building; correct?



16 Q. And then do you see any other one?

17 A. Yes. The infirmary was there at the beginning too. But I don't

18 understand these matters very well --

19 Q. And then --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to look at the map. Just look at the

21 photos.


23 Q. Do you see another photo that has the later infirmary on it?

24 A. I can't see it here.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we went through this in chief. And I'm

Page 6640

1 not sure what the relevance is, however, it's the difference between the

2 word "infirmary" and "hospital." If Your Honours looks at the

3 transcript --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, let's solve it in a very simple manner. I

5 mean, I appreciate what you say, Ms. Korner.

6 Look at photo number 8, Dr. Sabanovic, please. Look at photo

7 number 8.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can see it.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You were shown that photo before, two days ago. Do

10 you remember that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you tell us according to you now what is shown

13 in that photo, what building that was or that is?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This building here is the hospital.

15 And there was a horse stables there. And this is where the patients would

16 have beds. There were about 30 to 40 of them, and this is the entrance.

17 And here behind, this is the gate to the isolation cell. And there was

18 also an entrance where they would take -- which they would use to take in

19 goods from the Red Cross, et cetera. So the hospital is one thing and the

20 infirmary is another thing.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- one moment, Mr. Ackerman. Let's clear this

22 from our -- from our table straight away.

23 So you are telling us that to you, there is a difference between

24 an infirmary and a hospital. And indeed there is. This was the hospital,

25 according to you.

Page 6641

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Where was this hospital in place? Where was the

3 infirmary? Or was there an infirmary at the same time?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Where was it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hospital was created before. It

7 was in the command where the police was. I've already said that. And at

8 the same time, in the command there was a place which used to be a

9 slaughterhouse, and that was renovated and they made this -- this

10 hospital. You can't see it here. And this is an infirmary. There was an

11 area behind the stables, behind the kitchen where we would eat, and that's

12 the area where there is an entrance leading to the place where the

13 seriously sick were lying.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I don't know if your mind is clear after this

15 explanation, Mr. Ackerman, but you may proceed.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to have the witness now again look at DB86,

17 Your Honour, because I obviously asked the question improperly. I need to

18 ask it properly.

19 Q. Sir, I've got Exhibit DB86 back on the ELMO again. And tell me

20 now if you see the hospital on that drawing.

21 A. Well, it should be here, this part here, which is drawn, behind

22 this kitchen. Just here.

23 Q. So it's --

24 A. That's where the hospital should be, and this is where the

25 infirmary should be, because the command building was here to the left.

Page 6642

1 That's where the command should be, where the infirmary used to be, and

2 that should be the premises which are now used for the infirmary.

3 Q. All right. So the hospital is basically missing from this

4 drawing. It hasn't been drawn in.

5 A. You can't see it here. You can see very little here. It's

6 probably here. Something has been drawn which is a low sort of structure,

7 but not very well. I don't know who drew it. I don't know whether it's

8 been done very well.

9 Q. That low structure, could you just put some kind of a designation

10 there. And I understand that that is the area where you're saying the

11 hospital was but it's not representative of the hospital?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: He can put an "H."

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That should be the place. And this

14 should be the area. But the first part could have been the place, the one

15 that we were just looking at, where I said that the infirmary was

16 located. That seems to fit.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I appreciate that interruptions actually

18 sometimes delay matters even more, but I do ask given that this witness is

19 anxious to get away what any of this has to do with the case for

20 Mr. Brdjanin. And we could go on forever with whether the drawing is

21 accurate or the photograph or the descriptions. But I really do ask

22 what's the relevance of this to Mr. Brdjanin's case.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. What's the relevance.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, Mr. Brdjanin is charged with

25 responsibility for a large number of things that happened in the Krajina

Page 6643

1 and one of the things that he's charged with is things that happened at

2 this very camp, and so it's very relevant to his case. That's why I'm

3 doing this. I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't think it was worth doing.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But you haven't explained the proper

5 relevance, I mean of the questions that you are directing at the witness

6 at this present moment and that you have been insisting upon since

7 yesterday. I mean, the - the precise location of the infirmary and the

8 hospital.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: It has a great deal to do with witness credibility,

10 both this witness and previous witnesses, which I would prefer to reserve

11 for argument at the appropriate time, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, please where you think that the

13 hospital was, put an "H" and your initials.

14 And Mr. Ackerman, I invite you to proceed, to ask the witness some

15 other question which is more relevant to the treatment of prisoners.

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: In Manjaca.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is just a formality. What

19 we're doing is just a formality.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, Dr. Sabanovic, let us decide whether it's just

21 a formality or not.


23 Q. Okay. You've put an "H" in the area that you say this hospital

24 with you located.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: And I'm now finished with this document. And thank

Page 6644

1 you.

2 Q. You told us your first day of testimony at page 60 that you

3 started sleeping at some point in the hospital building; correct?

4 A. I didn't say that I started that. I started in the stables and

5 then in the hospital. The hospital wasn't there straight away.

6 Q. I understand. I've not worded my question properly or something.

7 There was a point where you started sleeping in the hospital

8 building; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you remember whether that was before or after you had been

11 registered by the Red Cross?

12 A. Well, about that time. I don't know exactly, but by the time we

13 sorted everything out, we sorted that area out and that happened later

14 on.

15 Q. So is it your answer that it was about the time you were

16 registered by the Red Cross?

17 A. I think it was, and maybe even afterwards.

18 Q. Maybe afterwards. Okay.

19 I'd like you to look now at Exhibit P754. And what we had talked

20 about yesterday with regard to Emir Mulalic had to do with some

21 information that the German authorities apparently had received that you

22 had reanimated him at Manjaca, which you told the German authorities and

23 told us was not the case. If you look at this newspaper article - and

24 this is Prosecution Exhibit 754, sir - if you look at this newspaper

25 article, you'll see a box down to the -- just to the right of the two

Page 6645

1 photographs. The headline is [B/C/S spoken]. Do you see that?

2 A. Cadjavica.

3 Q. Yes. Cadjavica.

4 In that article, it talks about --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, one moment. Because I'm not that sure

6 that we have -- 754. What we have is --

7 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry. I shouldn't --

8 I was asking him without the microphone. But is this article translated?


10 MS. KORNER: I think what His Honour is worried about and what I

11 can't find is where is the translation.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: 754 A.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: There is some confusion. 754 I have photocopies of

14 two different newspaper articles. The first one, which I don't think has

15 anything to do with what you're asking the witness now, has as a title

16 [B/C/S spoken]. And this is what has been indicated as Exhibit 754.

17 Then it continues, and there seems to be another article,

18 completely different and by a different person.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: It's all here, Your Honour.

20 MS. KORNER: Yes. Is it the translation that's headed, the

21 article "Interviews with prisoners from Manjaca"?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, no, it isn't.

23 MS. KORNER: Well, in that case, that's what I mean. There are a

24 number of articles and a number of translations.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: This is -- is it.

Page 6646

1 MR. ACKERMAN: It's called --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it the newspaper -- page from the newspaper where

3 there are two photos of two individuals --


5 JUDGE AGIUS: Skin and bones.


7 JUDGE AGIUS: And then to the right there is the box --

8 MR. ACKERMAN: That's --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that the box you are referring to?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is also 754? Because --

12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's -- according to my records, it is.

13 MS. KORNER: Could we put it on the ELMO, both the English and the

14 B/C/S, please. And then we'll all see where we are.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: 754 goes on and on and on.

16 MS. KORNER: Right. And what's -- okay. And what's the

17 translation, please?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: And the translation is headed "Truth about death

19 camp 7, the wheel of crime."

20 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: And the very last paragraph of that says "Crime in

22 Cadjavica."

23 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Would that get us there? Your Honours now have

25 what we're referring to.

Page 6647

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But the thing is it needs to be indicated

2 properly because all this seems to be document 754 -- Exhibit 754. And

3 there are still other cuttings from other newspapers coming up in the same

4 document, before and after. So let's -- for -- to be precise, we are

5 referring to the page which is marked with the number "00491525" in the

6 B/C/S version and page "01107782" in the English --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: That's exactly correct, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- version.

9 Okay. So there are at least -- later on if we need to refer to

10 this, we'll be able to.

11 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


13 Q. Sir, the only thing I want to bring to your attention is just

14 very -- that very short article. And I'm not going to read the whole

15 article. But it indicates that a person by the name of Emir Mulalic was

16 killed by a Dane Kajtaz and a Ducan Saovic while they were being escorted

17 from Manjaca at the well-known Chetnik stronghold of Cadjavica in a

18 forest near the Gaj motel.

19 My question is: Was there more than one Emir Mulalic that you

20 knew of who was confined at Manjaca?

21 A. No. And what is written there is not correct.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, that was not the question asked from

23 you. As far as you can say, was there only one Emir Mulalic or more than

24 one person with that same name in Manjaca? If you know the answer, then

25 tell us. If you --

Page 6648

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one person.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one person. You --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one. That's for sure.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm certain.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You've got your answer now, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

8 Q. My next question, sir, is similar: Were there two people in

9 Manjaca named Omer Filipovic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So there was only one person named Omer Filipovic who you gave

12 testimony about having died at Manjaca; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And according to your testimony, at page 68 you and

15 Dr. Derviskadic were called to the isolation cell at about 10.00 on a

16 particular morning, where you found the dead body of Mr. Filipovic;

17 correct?

18 A. That's -- we didn't find it. The police took us there to the

19 place where the man was lying dead.

20 Q. And you actually saw the body of Omer Filipovic in that isolation

21 cell.

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. And was that one of the nights that you had slept in the

24 hospital? Were you taken there straight from the hospital?

25 A. In the same building.

Page 6649

1 Q. During that night while you were sleeping in that same building,

2 did you hear any screams or noises or anything like that coming from the

3 isolation cell?

4 A. Well, let me tell you. It was a nightly occurrence practically.

5 But that man, knowing what he looked like before that, there wasn't -- one

6 couldn't really expect to hear his screams, because when I saw him there

7 he was only about 30 per cent of his appearance, of his body physique at

8 the time when he was healthy.

9 Q. So I take it the answer is you did not hear screams from that

10 isolation cell during that night as you were sleeping in the hospital.

11 A. No.

12 Q. And did Dr. Derviskadic indicate to you that he had heard any --

13 any noises like that during the night?

14 A. I'm not deaf, and as far as I know Dr. Derviskadic is not deaf

15 either. We slept in the same place. I repeat, one could hear screams

16 every night, but I do not recall that one could hear anything that night.

17 Q. All right. Now, you told us that when you got to the isolation

18 cell you saw in there a fire extinguisher that had blood upon it and it

19 was clear to you that he had been killed with that fire extinguisher,

20 crushed to some extent with it; correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. In your statement to the German authorities, doctor -- and I'll

23 ask the Prosecutor to give those back to you, both of your statements,

24 because we're going to refer to them.

25 You were asked about Omer Filipovic -- and I think it's on page

Page 6650

1 14, but I'm not certain, of the B/C/S version. I don't think so.

2 There it is. It's on page -- it's on page 15, sir, about halfway

3 down. It begins with: [B/C/S spoken] Are you going to look at it or not,

4 or did I just waste my time looking for it?

5 A. I don't need it.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. Just go ahead.

8 Q. The translation -- the English version says this:

9 "Dr. Derviskadic and I found Omer Filipovic dead in the isolation cell

10 one day. After we had been registered by the International Red Cross. It

11 might have been in the morning that we found Omer Filipovic. We were

12 supposed to check whether Omer Filipovic was really dead. I was not able

13 to examine him at the time and therefore cannot tell you what other

14 injuries he had suffered; therefore I cannot tell you the exact cause of

15 his death. However, I assume that he died as a result of mistreatment."

16 Now, is that what you told the German authorities?

17 A. Technically it is so poor that I really have no comment. I have

18 no comment, believe it or not.

19 Q. Well, I really didn't ask you for a comment. I simply asked you

20 if that's what you told the German authorities. Yes or no?

21 A. Well, this must have been literal. But that is not how it was

22 said, no. Simply no.

23 Q. There's nothing in that statement that I have that you gave to the

24 German authorities that mentions anything about finding a fire

25 extinguisher.

Page 6651

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm going to stop you, Mr. Ackerman. Please refer

2 to the first of these statements, according to my records at least, page

3 12 to be precise, with the number at the top 02004446, the third full

4 paragraph. "One day an MP told Dr. Derviskadic and I to come with him.

5 We were told to go to the isolation cell and get Omer Filipovic, because

6 he was dead. When I entered the cell which was 2 metres wide by 3 metres

7 long, I saw Omer lying on his back on the concrete floor. He was dead and

8 covered in blood. There was a fire extinguisher near him and the bottom

9 of it was covered in blood."

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: "It was clear to me that Omer had died a violent

12 death and that the fire extinguisher had been used to kill him."

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour the refer --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: You're looking at a different statement, Judge.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour's referring to the ICTY statement and

16 that came after the German.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. I see, I see.

18 MS. KORNER: The German interview was the first in time, the ICTY

19 statement was taken thereafter.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

21 Yes, you may proceed with your question.


23 Q. Sir, I could find nowhere in your statement to the German

24 authorities where you mention anything about a fire extinguisher. Did you

25 tell them about a fire extinguisher?

Page 6652

1 A. I did. It's very short. And these ones here -- I mean, this was

2 translated in such a muddled way that I repeat, I could never take such

3 things into consideration and translate them in this way.

4 Q. So you deny that you told the German authorities with regard to

5 Omer Filipovic "I cannot tell you the exact cause of his death"?

6 MS. KORNER: No. I'm sorry. That's a misrepresentation. The

7 doctor is not denying anything.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, he can answer that.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I deny --

10 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues] ... question to

11 answer.

12 MS. KORNER: No. But the whey it's being put, he didn't deny it.

13 If he's being asked whether -- do you deny it, that's a different matter.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner is right. Rephrase your question,

15 Mr. Ackerman, please.


17 Q. The statement that I have from the German authorities reads as

18 follows, sir: "Therefore I cannot tell you the exact cause of his death.

19 However, I assume that he died as a result of mistreatment." Are you

20 saying that that is not true and that that is not what you told the German

21 police?

22 A. It has not been translated as I said it. There is a number of

23 things -- there are a number of things here which are not translated

24 properly and did not reflect exactly what I had said.

25 Q. So is it your answer that you did not say that?

Page 6653

1 A. That I did not say it. I explained it. Just like I said to the

2 authorities here, how they translated it. I never read it. I'm not

3 reading it now.

4 Q. Well, you do --

5 A. This is the truth.

6 Q. You do recognise that I'm giving you the opportunity to read it

7 now, don't you?

8 A. Yes. But there's no reason for me to do it when I know it.

9 Q. I understand that's your position.

10 It says further down: "I examined Omer Filipovic alive for the

11 last time 15 or 16 days before I saw his body." You now say that that's

12 also not correct and you did not say that to the German authorities, don't

13 you?

14 A. Let me tell you first. There are few of those whom I did not

15 examine in Manjaca, and I said that 15 days earlier Omer Filipovic was

16 lying in a corner all by himself, nobody could come near him. And I

17 examined everybody. Now you want me after ten years the examinations,

18 several thousand people. I do not know them -- I was Dr. Sabanovic.

19 Others were inmates. How could I know all these people? I don't even

20 know those people who come from my area and had left abroad. Therefore, I

21 don't know who is it -- who was it there that -- whom I did not examine.

22 It wasn't yesterday.

23 Q. Yes, I understand that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And there is also statements to the effect that he

25 was examining something between 100 and 200 inmates every day. So I think

Page 6654

1 that is important to keep in mind, Mr. Ackerman.


3 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you to remember back ten years. I'm only

4 asking you to remember back to December of 2000 or February of 2001, when

5 you spoke to the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor. That's

6 as far back as I want you to remember right now. And isn't it true that

7 you said to the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor, page 12 of

8 your statement: "In my previous statement, I mentioned that I had

9 examined Omer alive for the last time 15 to 16 days before I saw his

10 body. This is not accurately stated. I never examined his body. I only

11 saw him after he was returned to the stable." That's what you told the

12 Prosecutor just a few months ago; correct?

13 A. It is impossible. How could his body be returned to the stable?

14 Excuse me. To return a dead man to the stable, I don't understand it.

15 And the one who wrote this and said this, well, it's not that I'm denying

16 it is impossible. It's incomprehensible. Living people are brought into

17 the stable and dead men are taken out from the stable. And from the

18 solitary -- from the isolation cell the dead body was taken directly to

19 Banja Luka. What stable?

20 Q. Well, sir, one of two things is happening. You're either not

21 listening or my questions are not being translated properly. So what I

22 want you to do and what I'm going --

23 A. No. I'm listening carefully.

24 Q. Well, what I'm going to ask you to do, because you're -- you're

25 not answering the questions I'm asking you for some reason. One is that

Page 6655

1 you're not listening, or two, they're not being translated properly. So

2 I want you to look at your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?

3 A. Do go ahead.

4 Q. No. I want you to look at the statement. You get the statement

5 and look at it, the one you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor?

6 A. No need.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I object. I think this is getting to

8 badgering the witness. It's clear to see Your Honours have a copy of the

9 statement. What he said to the German authorities and what he said to the

10 investigator. And I think we spent enough time on it now.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Korner is right, Mr. Ackerman.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, if he's going to be a witness here, Your

13 Honour, and I ask him proper questions, he should answer it.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But I think two paragraphs -- the relevant

15 paragraphs are there. I mean, the Chamber will withdraw its conclusions.

16 But it can't allow a situation to develop which almost becomes, I would

17 dare say, almost even a harassment. I mean, it's ...

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I just want to object to being cut off from

19 cross-examination which I think is appropriate.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You will be cut off if necessary,

21 Mr. Ackerman. Otherwise you know that usually I don't cut you off,

22 neither you or anyone else.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: And he should probably look at a statement.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And you probably come from a jurisdiction where what

25 you're doing now is customary. I come from a jurisdiction where this is

Page 6656

1 not allowed. I am permitting you to go ahead, but there are limits.


3 Q. Sir, you were talking in your direct examination about the death

4 of Esad Bender. And at page 69 of your testimony with regard to his

5 death, you gave the following answer: "It was a violent death. He was

6 covered in blood around his mouth and nose." Let me see if I'm looking at

7 the right one. I may not be looking at the right one. Yes, I am.

8 "The fire extinguisher next to him was also bloodstained in the

9 area where he was hit, and that was around his chest. And that is how we

10 were given a blanket to wrap him in and carry him out."

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that's Filipovic, Your Honour. I think I'm

12 reading the wrong part.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's my recollection as well, Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, here it is. I've found it. I've found it.

15 Q. With regard to Mr. Bender -- with regard to Mr. Bender, you've

16 said this.

17 A. [No interpretation]

18 Q. With regard to his death. That is a -- this is on page 70: "That

19 is a violent death. I did that, and I was an expert witness in a district

20 court in Banja Luka before the war. I did the post-mortems. I did

21 exhumations. And it was clear as daylight to me. And every word I'm

22 saying here is gospel truth. He died a violent death." And that's what

23 you told this Chamber during your testimony; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In your statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor --

Page 6657

1 I'm on page 12 of the English version. The third paragraph up from the

2 bottom you talk both Mr. Bender. You said you had examined him a few

3 times, noticed that he had bruises on his body. You can't remember if you

4 examined him on his arrival to the camp, that there were about 800 people

5 in the same stable the day he died. And then you said this: "I cannot

6 say if Esad's condition worsened during his time in the camp." Correct?

7 A. There's no worsening of the state. That man was all covered in

8 bruises, beaten, beaten, beaten. What worsening of his state?

9 Q. I don't know. Those are your words.

10 A. The man died. The man died of the injuries. And -- and you can

11 think what you like. You're entitled to it. I'm not saying anything.

12 Q. When did you last speak with Judge Draganovic?

13 A. I don't know. What do you mean? Of late or ...?

14 Q. Yeah. Recently. When did you last speak to him?

15 A. Well, let me tell you. Talked -- he's a very serious case. He

16 had one of his legs amputated. He's a diabetic. He's often brought to

17 the hospital, and that is it. And we were talking --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Dr. Sabanovic. We're talking of a

19 different person.

20 The person that Mr. Ackerman is asking you about -- look at me,

21 please -- is Judge -- Judge Draganovic, the president of the court in

22 Sanski Most, who we have seen here very much in one piece. We can't tell

23 if he is diabetic or not, but he certainly had his two legs and he's

24 definitely not the person that you were mentioning a few minutes ago.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm told the translation was wrong, Your Honour.

Page 6658

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Even the translation is wrong.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we're having some very serious translation

3 problems today, because he's not answering any questions that I'm asking

4 and I think he's trying to be --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The question, Mr. -- Dr. Sabanovic is this: When

6 did you last speak with Judge Draganovic?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it could have been a month, a

8 month and a half ago. And I talked with him about his mother. She is a

9 diabetic. She is seriously ill, and we talked about that a number of

10 times.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now we are definitely talking of the same

12 person, Mr. Ackerman, and you may proceed.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I want to -- I want to stop these

14 proceedings until we get some translators who can translate properly,

15 because it's not --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But first you have to show me where the

17 problem lies.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Apparently almost every question. All you have to

19 do is look at his answers that have nothing to do with my questions,

20 and it's pretty obvious that they're not being translated to him properly

21 and therefore he's giving me answers that have nothing to do with him

22 because he doesn't know what I'm asking him.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Not necessarily, Mr. Ackerman. Let's proceed.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I am very concerned.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So am I. But when I have proof of what you're

Page 6659

1 alleging, then I will take action but not before that.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, the proof was in the last question.

3 Obviously it was translated to him that somebody totally different from

4 Judge Draganovic--

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But tell me how it was translated to him.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I wish I knew.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I mean rather than spending

8 time -- both Mr. Ackerman -- he has two co-counsel who understand the

9 language. If there's a fault in the translation, no doubt they can alert

10 him. And Madam Fauveau speaks the language in any event. But I am

11 concerned that we are wasting an awful lot of time on what seem to me

12 particularly do not go to the heart of Mr. Ackerman's case.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Proceed, please, Mr. Ackerman. Go ahead.


15 Q. Did you speak with Judge Draganovic at all about his having

16 testified here at this Tribunal?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Have you spoken to anyone about his testimony here at this

19 Tribunal?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Did you speak to anybody about anyone's testimony at this Tribunal

22 within the last two weeks? You could probably remember that.

23 A. I don't know. Why would I talk about it?

24 Q. Did you speak to any representative of the AID office in Sarajevo

25 or Sanski Most or any other location in Bosnia-Herzegovina about your

Page 6660

1 testimony here?

2 A. Only when they would invite me, when I was to come here.

3 Otherwise, no.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Be precise. Who did you speak to? Because the

5 question was a direct one. Did you speak to any representative of the AID

6 office in Sarajevo or Sanski Most or any other location in

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina about your testimony here? You're saying "only when

8 they would invite me, when I was to come here." Who invited you and who

9 did you speak to? That's what Mr. Ackerman wants to know.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With a man called -- whose first

11 name is Zijo. I don't know his last name -- who works in Sanski Most

12 and who informs me where do I have to go and when do I have to go there.

13 That is all.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: This is quite distressing.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is what he's telling us, that he spoke with

16 someone called Zijo, if I get it right here. I don't know his last

17 name.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: You can bet big money that it's our friend Zijad

19 Ibric and what is he doing inviting Prosecution witnesses --

20 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Your Honour, if we're going to have this

21 discussion, we'll have it in the absence of the witness.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You are mentioning a name that the witness did not

23 mention.

24 MS. KORNER: No. Mr. Ackerman is perfectly entitled to put direct

25 questions but not make comments of that nature and speeches. If he wants

Page 6661

1 to suggest to the witness that it was Zijad Ibric then by all means

2 suggest it. And then perhaps he might like to ask what discussion there

3 was between him and Zijad Ibric, rather than this cloud of --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Mr. Ackerman -- Ms. Korner.

5 Mr. Ackerman, you are free to put a direct question to the

6 witness, mentioning the person -- name of the person that you have

7 referred to a minute ago and ask whether he has met with this person.


9 Q. Was it Zijad Ibric that talked to you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How many times did you speak with Zijad Ibric?

12 A. As many times as was necessary. When investigating judges came to

13 Sanski Most or when I was to come here.

14 Q. Did you give statements to Zijad Ibric, written statements?

15 A. No. No.

16 Q. Did you give written statements to investigative judges?

17 A. Yes. Those from The Hague and in Germany, if they are

18 investigating judges.

19 Q. Did you discuss the testimony that you would give here with

20 Mr. Zijad Ibric?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What did Zijad Ibric tell you when he contacted you with regard to

23 coming here to be a witness?

24 A. He told me that I needed a passport and a new one at that, so that

25 I changed the passport two or three days before I came here, and that he

Page 6662

1 would let me know when they came to take me to The Hague. That was that.

2 Q. When they came. Do you know who "they" were?

3 A. These are people from the United Nations. A man from the United

4 Nations who came to fetch me. I was working at the time, and he went

5 there and he brought me here.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if Mr. Ackerman wants to hear evidence

7 from the VWS about how witnesses arrive here, then we'll call somebody.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it's necessary, Ms. Korner.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we already have -- I'll take this up

10 at a later time, but I'm becoming concerned about this and I want to raise

11 it but I don't want to do it now.

12 Q. Did you speak with anyone from any detainees association about the

13 testimony you would give here?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. You told us in your transcript at page -- in your testimony at

16 page 71 of the transcript -- you said: "There was a judge who was --"

17 referring to your time in Manjaca, sir. "There was a judge who was called

18 out two or three times and luckily he did not respond. He certainly would

19 not have lived to see the day." Do you know who that was?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. Is it the case that people were free to -- to not respond when

22 they were called out?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You told us that you had actually treated Lieutenant Colonel

25 Popovic and the person called Spaga, the warden, for their medical

Page 6663

1 problems; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you told us that they had on occasion asked you to drink

4 whiskey with them; true?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And there were in fact some occasions when you did that, weren't

7 there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your statement to the German authorities, sir, you were asked a

10 question which you described as a fairy tale. Do you remember that

11 question that they asked you which you called a fairy tale?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you be more specific, Mr. Ackerman? Because

13 he --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm trying to save some time. Your Honour. If we

15 can save some time by doing it this way, we will. If not, I'll have to be

16 a lot more specific. But he might remember, if he doesn't then I can

17 remind him of it.

18 Q. Do you remember that?

19 A. I don't know anything about a fairy tale.

20 Q. Okay. The investigator said to you that they had a statement

21 which said that Mr. Bender, Esad Bender, was carried on a blanket by four

22 prisoners into shed 3. You examined Bender by lifting his T-shirt and

23 asked one of the guards for a knife. You said that you needed to open up

24 Bender in a certain place in order to help him because he was suffering

25 from a pneumothorax. You were not given a knife, but about 30 minutes

Page 6664

1 later Spaga allegedly came into the shed and said that an ambulance was on

2 its way from Banja Luka. You are said to have massaged Bender all this

3 time, dabbing him with a moist rag. You supposedly weeping the entire

4 time. Bender supposedly told you why he had been hurt. He said

5 that he needed help because he was dying. You told him you could not help

6 him and he would be taken by ambulance to Banja Luka. He said he did not

7 want to go to Banja Luka. And after that this, he showed no more signs of

8 life. You supposedly tried to revive Bender with mouth-to-mouth

9 resuscitation and cardiac massage but without success. Soon after, the

10 lifeless Bender was carried out of the shed and put into the ambulance

11 that had arrived. And you were asked if you could remember that

12 incident. And what you told the German investigator was, according to the

13 document I have in front of me: "This is a fairy tale. This did not

14 happen. If it had happened, I would remember it. Somebody has dreamt

15 this up to make himself seem important and turn me into a hero. But I do

16 not need this." Do you remember that?

17 A. Well, -- let me tell you. Either I'm a fool or someone who's not

18 worthy to be walking around. Not even a person who is illiterate would do

19 something like that. I apologise. You read it out. But I quite simply

20 don't know what to say about that. It's such a -- it's so confused.

21 These words are so confused. Only a schizophrenic could say something

22 like that. I don't understand where this came from and I don't understand

23 what it is. Believe me, sir. Believe me. That's the truth. I simply

24 can't understand it. I don't understand that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But don't put the blame necessarily on the

Page 6665

1 interpreters, Mr. Ackerman.

2 Dr. Sabanovic, look at me --

3 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, I think there's some confusion. He

4 understands --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But he's not answering the question.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes, he is.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The way he's answering it is obliquely. This is

8 what we have to establish.

9 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour, it's been put to him and he's asking

10 us if he remembers it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. And instead of answering that question, he's

12 going to the substance. This is --

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the difficulty is -- and I repeat. I am

14 objecting to this line of questioning. What is the relevance of any of

15 this to the case for Mr. Brdjanin? We're just going forever round in

16 circles, it seems to me.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But let the Tribunal draw conclusions from that, if

18 it is so, Ms. Korner. I mean, at the present moment I do understand that

19 Mr. Ackerman has every right to test the witness, putting us in a position

20 to be able to -- to decide how much weight to give to the evidence of this

21 witness. This is what he is trying to do. And I'm not going to stop

22 him.

23 MS. KORNER: Well, I understand that, Your Honour, and I'd almost

24 given up objecting. But in fact that answer was a part of a statement

25 that apparently the German police had that they put to him and he said

Page 6666

1 that was a fairytale. Now, how does that assist Your Honours, may I

2 ask in reaching a conclusion as to the weight of this witness's evidence?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it would all have depended on the way he would

4 have answered the question. It could well be that there was a second

5 question in the pipeline waiting after that, had he said "yes, I remember

6 being asked that and I remember giving that answer."

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Or Mr. Ackerman was expecting the kind of reply that

9 he actually got. How do I know?

10 MS. KORNER: All right. I think -- it's clear that Mr. Ackerman

11 and I need to have -- raise matters before Your Honour. But I'll sit down

12 at this stage.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, please proceed.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I really would like the witness to

15 look at page 20 of the B/C/S translation of his German statement, because

16 I really don't think he understood what it was --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me -- let me explain again the question to him.

18 Mr. Ackerman -- Dr. Sabanovic, look at me, please. Dr. Sabanovic,

19 Mr. Ackerman read out to you from the statement that we have been given

20 supposedly telling us what question the investigator put to you -- the

21 German investigator put to you and what you had said. What we want to

22 know is whether you remember being told this story by the investigator,

23 telling you someone has told us that this and this and this happened, and

24 that I don't answered, "This is a fairytale." Do you remember being

25 questioned and do you remember answering, "This is a fairytale," this is

Page 6667

1 pure imagination?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the first time

3 I've heard this here. This is the first time I've heard this. I don't

4 remember about -- anything about that. No one asked me that question.

5 And this is the first time I have heard this, and I am surprised by this.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So Mr. Ackerman, you've got your answer now.

7 You may proceed with the next question.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Sir, in your statement to the Prosecutor, on page 3 at the bottom

10 of the page, the last paragraph, you told the Prosecutor's Office,

11 according to this translation, the following: "Two or three months before

12 the takeover of Sanski Most, non-Serbs living in non-Serbian parts of town

13 had begun guarding their areas because they were afraid. For example, in

14 the settlement of Mahala." Is that the case? Is that true?

15 A. Yes, that's true.

16 Q. On the next page, it says that you said: "Armed Croat and Muslim

17 civilians stood guard during the evening to ensure the safety of civilians

18 living in those parts. All these factors led to Muslims and Croats

19 organising the patrols, especially during the evening." That's also true,

20 is it not?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. Now, you told us, sir, yesterday that you had seen Mr. Brdjanin at

23 Manjaca.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you told us you had seen him when he left the middle stable;

Page 6668

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And where were you?

4 A. He was in front -- I was in front. Outside. I then turned around

5 to the -- towards the other stables. I was in the infirmary at the time,

6 but I didn't go in at the time because a speech was being given and you

7 didn't have the right to enter the stables.

8 Q. So you were in the infirmary and he came out of stable 3 -- or the

9 middle stable, which would be -- the middle stable.

10 A. Went from the infirmary, yes.

11 Q. And that's where you saw him and recognised him; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in your statement to the Prosecutor, you told the

14 Prosecutor -- it's page 14 of your statement -- that he was there on two

15 occasions. Yesterday you said you were only sure about one of those. And

16 when you told the Prosecutor about his visit, you said "It was toward the

17 end of July 1992"; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also told us that either a policeman or a nurse told you

20 before the arrival that Brdjanin was coming. Can you tell us who told you

21 that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who told you that?

24 A. Well, a policeman.

25 Q. Yesterday you said police or a nurse. Now you know it's a

Page 6669

1 policeman?

2 A. A policeman or a nurse. A nurse wears a uniform just like a

3 policeman.

4 Q. But you don't remember who it was.

5 A. There's nothing for me to remember. I don't know the names of any

6 of the policemen, neither the first nor the last name.

7 Q. But you did know the names of the nurses.

8 A. Yes, I did. Aco was one name.

9 Q. Yeah. We talked about that person yesterday, didn't we?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You think that was the person who told you Brdjanin was coming?

12 A. Yes. And others, not just him. Several of them.

13 Q. Yesterday at page 43 of the LiveNote you were talking about these

14 visits. You talked about Brdjanin and Zupljanin and Kupresanin visiting

15 the camp. And you referred to it as 3N, Manjaca 3N?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said that meant the three people from the Banja Luka Crisis

18 Staff. And their names all ended in N. That was your testimony; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'd like you now to be shown, sir, Exhibit DB87.

21 Now, sir, on the 20th of February of 2001, an investigator from

22 the Prosecutor's Office showed you a number of photographs and asked you

23 if among those photographs you could see this Mr. Brdjanin who you knew

24 well because you'd seen him on television and could recognise him from

25 across the yard; right?

Page 6670

1 A. I didn't.

2 Q. You were given that opportunity, weren't you?

3 A. Yes. But I said that I didn't know who Brdjanin was when looking

4 at these photographs. When I have a look at him now I still wouldn't

5 know. I didn't give an affirmative answer.

6 Q. In other words, you could not pick Mr. Brdjanin out from these

7 photographs that you were shown, could you? You were shown 12

8 photographs, and you couldn't identify Mr. Brdjanin.

9 A. No.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour. Thank

11 you.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, I think if the case is that Mr. Brdjanin was

13 never there, it ought to be put to the witness.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry. I missed that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner --

16 Sorry, Mr. Ackerman. Ms. Korner is suggesting that if you contend

17 that your client was never present in Manjaca, you should put it to the

18 witness.


20 Q. Mr. Witness, I suggest to you that you did not see Mr. Brdjanin at

21 Manjaca and that he was never there. And of course you will say to me,

22 "You're wrong, Mr. Ackerman"; right?

23 A. I won't say that you're wrong, but that's not correct.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it's like distinction between the infirmary

25 and the hospital.

Page 6671

1 We stop --

2 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues] ...

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We stop there. You've finished, Mr. Ackerman.

4 Madam Fauveau, you have the option of starting now and stopping in

5 12 minutes' time, to resume after the break. Or we'll take the break now

6 and you start your cross-examination immediately after the break. I leave

7 it entirely up to you. What do you prefer?

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can start

9 now.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then proceed.

11 Dr. Sabanovic, you are now going to be cross-examined by Defence

12 counsel for General Talic.

13 Madam Fauveau.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, in 1992, you were the deputy of the

16 municipal assembly in Sanski Most; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When did the last session of the municipal assembly take place at

19 which you attended?

20 A. I couldn't answer that. That was a long time ago. If you're

21 referring to the year 1992.

22 Q. Yes, I'm referring to 1992.

23 A. I don't know. I couldn't answer that question.

24 Q. The day before yesterday you said that before 1990 you were a

25 member of the League of Communists.

Page 6672

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it correct to say that you became a member of the League of

3 Communists in order to be able to assume the post of the chief of the --

4 of the head of the clinic in Sanski Most?

5 A. Yes. I was already elected, and then two hours later I got my

6 booklet saying that I was a member of the League of Communists. My

7 secretary in the health centre later became the secretary of the

8 committee. He was in that selection and got the booklet in two hours'

9 time.

10 Q. You spoke on the 3rd of June, and you said that the Serbs had

11 the desire to create a new state without Croats and without Muslims.

12 Isn't it true that the Serbs didn't want to create a new state but that

13 they wanted to remain within Yugoslavia?

14 A. You could put it that way, to remain within Yugoslavia. Yes, to

15 remain in Serbia.

16 Q. And in fact, the Croats wanted a new, independent state; isn't

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the Muslims wanted a new, independent Bosnia.

20 A. Well, there was a referendum about that, and we know that that

21 was -- they voted for that at the referendum and they voted for an

22 independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. You spoke about Milosevic. That was also on the 3rd of June. And

24 you said that he was President of Serbia and the commander of the army.

25 Isn't it true that the commander of the army was the President of the

Page 6673

1 Presidency of Yugoslavia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in April 1992, it was the Croat, Stipo Mesic.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So Stipe Mesic was the commander of the Yugoslavia army and not

6 Milosevic.

7 A. No, not then. Later. The President of Serbia and then the

8 President of Yugoslavia, which was formed by Serbian Montenegro. It was

9 then that he was the commander of the armed forces of the Federal Republic

10 of Yugoslavia. That's what I was referring to.

11 Q. But that was later. It wasn't in April 1992.

12 A. Yes. Yes, for sure. But I don't know about that. There was some

13 confusion about that.

14 Q. You said on the 3rd of June that your wife was a Serbian. Is that

15 true?

16 A. Yes, that's true.

17 Q. And you have three sons; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. And all your sons have Muslim names. Their first names are Muslim

20 first names; is that true?

21 A. The eldest one is Ernes. The second is Alen, and the third is

22 Oliver.

23 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the certificates that you issued to

24 persons who did not want to go to the army. And yesterday you said that

25 these certificates weren't false. Do you have in front of you the

Page 6674

1 statement that you gave to the Prosecutor in the year 2000? Do you have

2 this statement?

3 A. Well, it should probably be here.

4 Q. On page 3 of this statement -- I think it's also page 3 in the

5 Serbo-Croat version. It's also page 3 in the Serbo-Croat version. The

6 second paragraph, the third sentence in the second paragraph. In the

7 English version it's also the second paragraph, the third sentence. You

8 said: [In English]: "Most of the certificates I issued were false."

9 [Interpretation] And today could you say whether these certificates were

10 false or whether they weren't false?

11 A. Not a single certificate was false. Each certificate was issued

12 to people who felt that they couldn't go to war and couldn't join in a war

13 between two states -- couldn't join the fight between Croatia and Serbia.

14 They didn't want to go. And that is either psychological or organic

15 factor. People were perhaps ill and these people were of various -- of

16 all nationalities.

17 Q. In that case, why did you say in this written statement that most

18 of these certificates were false?

19 A. Well, you know, in people's case histories, people would give this

20 information. They would always say that they were ill. And when we'd

21 have a look, perhaps they could have gone in a war situation. But in that

22 country, there was no war situation so I had to listen to the people and

23 write down what they said and what I determined through laboratory

24 examinations and other sorts of examinations.

25 Q. When you spoke with the representative of the OTP, why did you say

Page 6675

1 that these certificates or most of these certificates were false?

2 A. Well, let me tell you. The word "false," I don't know if I used

3 that word. These certificates were given to people so that they wouldn't

4 have to go and join a fight between other states. And Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina was already an independent state and it had been recognised

6 such by the United Nations.

7 Q. The war in Croatia did take place in 1991; isn't that correct?

8 A. 1991, I don't know. Around the beginning of 1991, 1992. Around

9 those dates.

10 Q. And in 1991, the army which was in Croatia, as well as in Bosnia,

11 it was the JNA.

12 A. Yes. But the army which was fighting against Croatia, it wasn't

13 the JNA. It wasn't only the JNA. It was the JNA which had gone to Serbia

14 and elsewhere, but it wasn't in Croatia.

15 Q. Bosnia in 1991 was still part of Yugoslavia, wasn't it?

16 A. Well, it was at the beginning, and later -- it's all been written

17 down. It's well known when -- it's a well-known fact when there was a

18 referendum and when it became independent and was recognised by the United

19 Nations. What I gave at the time, that took place at that time.

20 Q. I know that you don't like dates very much. But if I say that

21 Bosnia became independent on the 6th of April, 1992, could you accept

22 that?

23 A. Well, I could.

24 Q. And could you accept that on the 6th of April, 1992 there was no

25 more war in Croatia?

Page 6676

1 A. Well, let me tell you. I don't know. In November 1992 I passed

2 through Gradiska, and it's not possible to say that there was no war

3 there, because part of Croatia had been occupied by Serbia, and there were

4 UN troops and there was a zone where it hadn't been finished.

5 Q. But in any case, in any event, the JNA was no longer there.

6 A. Perhaps not.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Would it be a good time to

8 have a break now?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. We'll have a break of 15 minutes,

10 resuming at 4.00. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I recognise Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, after returning from my spot over

15 there, my colleagues here told me that the translations that were being

16 done during the cross-examination of this witness were absolutely

17 flawless, they were being done perfectly. And so I just want to publicly

18 apologise to the translators if I criticised them -- and I did, I think --

19 that it was not the translation that was causing the problems that were

20 happening this morning. And so to the extent that I can, I apologise to

21 them publicly for that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

23 Yes, Ms. Korner.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I understand from Madam Fauveau that

25 she's going to take the rest of this day and maybe tomorrow with this

Page 6677

1 witness. We have a witness here who's being -- who's waiting to testify,

2 on the basis of indications I was given yesterday.

3 The other matter I should mention straight away is although we

4 managed to stop one of the witnesses, we have a witness here waiting to

5 testify. I want to know perhaps what Your Honours think about the fact

6 that if he doesn't start till Friday, he probably won't finish and we then

7 have the week's break.

8 I raise that now. I'm not going to stop that because I'm anxious

9 to get the doctor away.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for raising the matter.

11 Shall we postpone it until the very end of today's sitting, or do

12 you need to know before that?

13 MS. KORNER: No. I don't need -- I mean, both witnesses are here

14 already. I don't need to know now. I'm merely pointing this out. But

15 Your Honours may feel that it would be desirable if the doctor were able

16 to leave at least tomorrow morning.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll do our utmost.

18 And if -- I don't know, Madam Fauveau, obviously I'm not going

19 interfere with your cross-examination. But if it is at all possible to

20 conclude today, you will try and conclude today.

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best. I will

22 do my utmost to finish today. But it is quite possible that perhaps I

23 will need another half an hour or very little for my cross-examination.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau. Please proceed.

25 And Dr. Sabanovic, try to answer yes or no when that is possible,

Page 6678

1 without going into details, because the more details you enter into, the

2 longer you will stay here.

3 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. When you speak about certificates that you issued to persons who

6 had been called up, you spoke about that and you said that some JNA

7 officers came to see you. Is that true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And these officers were polite talking to you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. They did not threaten you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. The day before yesterday - and it is the page 13 of the LiveNote -

14 you said that these officers did not tell you that you did not have the

15 right to issue the certificates.

16 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

17 Q. Would you look at page 3 of your statement, please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which statement?

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The statement to the OTP of

20 2000, 2001.

21 Q. Towards the end of the second paragraph, you said: [In English]

22 "At the time they were not unpleasant but they told me that I had no

23 right to issue the permits any longer." [Interpretation] Well, why did

24 you say this if you didn't think it true?

25 A. Well, I didn't perhaps consider it important, because there was no

Page 6679

1 conflict between us, there were no words between us. So perhaps I just

2 disregarded it.

3 Q. Then you spoke also about a colleague of yours, Bosko Grubisa by

4 name. And you said that he was wearing a uniform.

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. When did you see him in the uniform for the first time?

7 A. I think it was somewhere on the 25th or the 26th of April, when I

8 was dismissed, when I was removed from my post of the head of the general

9 specialist department.

10 Q. And this Bosko Grubisa worked for the same health centre as you?

11 A. Yes. An intern. Yes, he worked with me.

12 Q. And since when did he work for that centre?

13 A. Well, I believe he was there from 1992, thereabouts.

14 Q. And what about 1991, 1992? Was he still working for the centre?

15 A. Yes, yes, of course.

16 Q. He wasn't on the front in Croatia.

17 A. No.

18 Q. In your written statement - and it is page 3. It is the statement

19 to the OTP, page 3 in the English version, the very first sentence. And

20 in the B/C/S version, it is the first paragraph and -- the first whole

21 paragraph, the first sentence of it. You said that you already in July or

22 August 1991 you felt tensions and the JNA, or more specifically the 6th

23 Krajina Brigade had arrived into the area. Did you mean by this that the

24 6th Brigade arrived in the area of Sanski Most in July or August 1991?

25 A. No. No. It arrived sometime in the early days of March, the

Page 6680

1 beginning of March 1992.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar please

3 show P608, please, Exhibit P608.

4 Q. Is it the order of the command of the 5th Corps?

5 A. Well, I don't really know which corps, to be quite honest.

6 Q. Doesn't it say at the top of the page to the left "The command of

7 the 5th Corps"?

8 A. Yes, that's right. That's right. But I don't know. I -- at that

9 time I did know about the 5th Corps. I only know about the 5th Corps

10 after 1992, in the course of the war.

11 Q. And the date on this order is the 1st of April, 1992; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

14 Q. If you look at the first paragraph immediately after number 1,

15 below the words "I hereby issue this order." This is an order to the 6th

16 Brigade to come to the area of Sanski Most; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Could we agree that the 6th Brigade received an order to deploy

19 its forces in the area of Sanski Most on the 1st of April, 1992?

20 A. Possibly. Possibly. I did not follow that, and as to the dates,

21 no, I'm sorry.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: The question before the current one, the witness

24 said, "Da, da," but it didn't get interpreted and the answer says "no

25 interpretation," but he did answer it yes, I think.

Page 6681

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clarify that.

2 Dr. Sabanovic, immediately prior to the last question you were

3 asked, you were asked the following question: "If you look at the first

4 paragraph immediately after number 1, below the words "I hereby issue this

5 order." This is an order to the 6th Brigade to come to the area of Sanski

6 Most; is that correct?" What was your answer? Because the interpreters

7 didn't get it.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't know what you answered or -- what was your

10 answer?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know when it came. I know

12 that the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived sometime in April to Sanski Most and

13 that they communicated with Colonel Basara and had some talks with them

14 and so on and so forth.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

16 Madam Fauveau.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar please

18 show P609.

19 Q. Isn't this the report of the command of the 5th Corps dated the

20 2nd of April, 1992?

21 A. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. And passage 2, paragraph 2, the paragraph which comes after "2,"

23 it speaks about the deployment of the 6th Brigade in the area of Sanski

24 Most; would that be true?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 6682

1 Q. And according to this report, the brigade should be deployed in

2 the area in Sanski Most until the 3rd of April, 1992; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's what it says.

4 Q. On the 3rd of June, you spoke about the checkpoints which were set

5 up by the Serbs, and you said that before the brigade came there were no

6 such checkpoints. Could you be more precise and tell us when were the

7 Serb checkpoints set up in the area of Sanski Most.

8 A. I cannot be quite precise, because it was at that chief period

9 before the war. Perhaps it could have been March, April, thereabouts.

10 Q. Could you look at your statement which you gave to the OTP, page 3

11 of the English version, the last passage. And in B/C/S version, it is the

12 first passage on page 4. And it is in the middle of the paragraph.

13 You said that the Serbs set up their checkpoints after the 19th of

14 May, 1992. It's page 4, the first passage.

15 A. No, no, no. This is a mistake. One shouldn't -- that was

16 earlier.

17 Q. Then why did you say that it was after the 19th of May, 1992?

18 A. I fail to understand this, I must say. In April, yes. But now

19 you say May. In April, that is possible. But in May -- in May, by that

20 time everything was already organised.

21 Q. But the statement that you have before you, is it your statement?

22 A. Well, whose could it be? If it's here.

23 Q. And you had the opportunity to go through the statement before you

24 came to testify here.

25 A. Well, I wasn't paying attention and I never gave any thoughts to

Page 6683

1 dates. A month here, a month there. You knew what was happening. But

2 I'm not a military person to keep up with those statistics. So perhaps it

3 was a mistake not to do that. But I never gave it a thought, and it was a

4 long time ago, and so ...

5 Q. I do not know whether the witness still has before him P608.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't think so. It's not normal that the

7 registry leaves the documents lying on the table there during the break, I

8 suppose. 608.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. It is paragraph 2 of item 1. That is, this is a passage --

11 paragraph which doesn't give with a number.

12 Is it correct that the command of the 5th Corps ordered, among

13 other things, the -- to prevent inter-ethnic conflicts and the

14 establishment, the setting up of roadblocks?

15 A. That is how it was stated by the 6th Krajina Brigade, yes.

16 Q. Will you please now look at 609. The version in English is page

17 2, and B/C/S page 3. It is the paragraph which begins with number "3," "I

18 have decided."

19 In this report -- in this paragraph it is also indicated that

20 General Talic decided to prevent the establishment of the road -- the

21 setting up of the roadblocks; is that correct?

22 A. Yeah, yeah.

23 Q. And this -- and General Talic signed this document, didn't he?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yesterday you spoke -- no, it was the day before yesterday, on the

Page 6684

1 3rd of June, page 14 of the LiveNote. You spoke about the guards which

2 were organised by non-Serbs in order to protect their villages. Could you

3 tell us when did the non-Serbs organise those guards.

4 A. Well, before these hard times started -- once again, I can't give

5 you the date. Hard times.

6 Q. Did the non-Serbs also set up their checkpoints?

7 A. No, not checkpoints. They had village guards, and the Serbs had

8 their checkpoints.

9 Q. Could one say that these non-Serb guards were established two or

10 three months before Sanski Most was taken by the Serbs?

11 A. Yes. I'd say so. But it's very difficult for me to speak about

12 any dates.

13 Q. Therefore, one can say that the non-Serbs organised their guards

14 before the Serbs set up their checkpoints; is that so?

15 A. No. The checkpoints were already in existence. It was the

16 checkpoints which conduced to the village guards organised by Croats and

17 Muslims and Croats.

18 Q. Is it correct to say that the non-Serbs organised those guards in

19 the town of Sanski Most as well? That is, in those parts of -- in the

20 part of the town where they were the majority.

21 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

22 Q. And those Muslims and Croats organised those guards. They were

23 armed, weren't they?

24 A. Why, yes, surely. No dilemma.

25 Q. And there were such guards in Mahala too, weren't there?

Page 6685

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Therefore, there were armed individuals in Mahala, weren't there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The day before yesterday, page 18, you spoke about the attack on

5 the municipal hall building in Sanski Most. Did you see that attack?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. Did you see any military, any troop movements during that attack?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So you do not know who took part in that attack, do you?

10 A. The police took part, all the police. And the police had already

11 been split. There was the Serb police, and they participated in it; all

12 the armed ones who sided with the Chetniks, that is, the Serb police and

13 the others. Well, the Serb authorities by and large.

14 Q. And there was an exchange of fire between the Serbian police and

15 the Muslim and Croat police; isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes. They were in the municipality for a very short time. Then

17 they left the municipality and went towards a village called Poljak. So

18 they came to an end quite rapidly.

19 Q. At a certain point in time -- on the 3rd of June, page 18 of the

20 LiveNote, you said that they were all members of the military. When you

21 say that they were all soldiers, do you mean to say that everyone wearing

22 a uniform was a soldier?

23 A. Everyone wearing a uniform and carrying weapons. That's what it

24 was called at the time.

25 Q. On page 4 of your statement. It's the second paragraph in the

Page 6686

1 English version on page 4, and it's page 4 in the second paragraph in the

2 Serb-Croat version. You said that you had seen Serb children with

3 weapons. How old were these children?

4 A. They were young people, 17 or 18 years old.

5 Q. You were arrested on the 26th of May, 1992; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. And you said on the 3rd of June - it's page 21 of the LiveNote -

8 you said that your papers, your personal paper, had been burnt.

9 A. Yes

10 Q. Could you tell us who burnt your papers.

11 A. The people who escorted me from the hospital to my home. I said

12 that yesterday. The people who took me from the hospital to my home.

13 Q. Where did they burn your identity papers?

14 A. In front of the house. At the stop where we stopped in front of

15 the house.

16 Q. In fact, when you had returned from the hospital and returned

17 home, how many policemen got out of the vehicle?

18 A. Four. One came out with me immediately to talk to me, but there

19 were four sitting in the vehicle and they came out later.

20 Q. So all four men came out of the vehicle.

21 A. Yes. Later on they did.

22 Q. On the 3rd of June, at page 20 you said: [In English] "Only one

23 of them got out of the van."

24 A. In the beginning, I was escorted to the house -- to the fence in

25 front of the house and then escorted me into the house. And then the

Page 6687

1 other three got out of the vehicle too. So the other three were outside

2 too.

3 Q. [Interpretation] You spoke about - and it's still on the 3rd of

4 June - about a Catholic person who was detained in the Hasan Kikic hall.

5 He was detained with you there. And he had been wounded in the shelling.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. And you said that this shelling had been carried out by the 6th

8 Brigade.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were not personally present when this shelling took place.

11 A. No, because I was already imprisoned.

12 Q. So you don't have any personal knowledge of the identity of the

13 perpetrator of the shelling.

14 A. The 6th Krajina Brigade was deployed between Sanski Most -- above

15 Sanski Most, above Mahala, about 3 kilometres away on a hill called

16 Magarice, and the artillery was there. That's a hundred per cent sure. I

17 knew about that. I saw them. And I was in contact with Colonel Basara

18 and with officers.

19 Q. Before the 26th of May, was there any shelling of Sanski Most?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So you personally, you didn't see the shelling.

22 A. It wasn't possible for me to see it because I had been

23 imprisoned. I was imprisoned after the 26th.

24 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the destruction of the roof of your

25 house.

Page 6688

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When was this roof destroyed?

3 A. Immediately after I had left. As soon as I had left, that took

4 place. There was zoljas fired at the house. They fired at the house.

5 The roof was destroyed, the door, et cetera.

6 Q. And you -- when the roof of your house was destroyed, at that time

7 you were already in prison.

8 A. I'd already left.

9 Q. So you didn't see it being destroyed.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yesterday you said that a young Muslim and a young Serb put the

12 fire out in your house. Do you remember saying that?

13 A. They didn't set fire to it. No, they put it out. Yes, that's

14 right. Yes, a Muslim and a Serb, two boys who lived in the

15 neighbourhood.

16 Q. This Serb, was he a soldier?

17 A. No, he wasn't.

18 Q. The day before yesterday you spoke about your arrival in the

19 Manjaca camp, and you said that you had seen the murder of two persons.

20 It's in the LiveNote, page 51. It was a young man, Mehardzic and a

21 dentist called Biscevic.

22 A. That's right, yes.

23 Q. If you have a look at your written statement, it's page -- it's on

24 page 7. It's the paragraph before the last one in the English version.

25 And in the Croatian version, it's page 8, the first paragraph on page 8.

Page 6689

1 You spoke about the death of this young person called Mehardzic.

2 But then you say: [In English] "From my position, I was not able to

3 witness the other murders."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. [Interpretation] You didn't mention the murder of the dentist

6 called Biscevic.

7 A. Perhaps I didn't. I saw a third person too, but I didn't sit down

8 and think about what was being done. It was all done very quickly. But

9 there was another person I saw who served in the army, in the JNA before

10 the war in the time of the real Yugoslavia. I saw him in Manjaca, and he

11 also died. That's for sure. That's a hundred per cent certain. His name

12 is Hadziahmetovic.

13 Q. So if I am following your testimony correctly, in your statement

14 given in the year 2000, 2001 you saw one murder. On the 3rd of June, you

15 saw two. And today you're saying that you witnessed three; is that

16 correct?

17 A. You should have done that immediately after that, and then we

18 would be speaking in different terms. For me to be think about this

19 ten years after the event and for me to refer to everything -- well, I

20 apologise to you. You're behaving in a very correct manner. But perhaps

21 there are certain discrepancies here, given the amount of time that has

22 passed.

23 Q. So you would allow for the possibility that there is certain

24 information that isn't correct in your statements.

25 A. I don't know how to formulate this. Mistakes -- perhaps it's a

Page 6690

1 matter of forgetting something and as a result not everything was -- was

2 stated. There's no other way for me to interpret this and now that I have

3 these things before me.

4 Q. On the 3rd of June - it's page 47 of the LiveNote - you said that

5 the persons who were detained in Manjaca and who came from Sanski Most and

6 Kljuc weren't soldiers.

7 A. No. Yes. I said yes. But they weren't soldiers.

8 Q. And on this occasion you said that there was no war and no

9 resistance had been mounted in the city.

10 A. No. There was no resistance on our part. That was an aggression,

11 and that's it.

12 Q. Yesterday you explained -- in another statement that you gave you

13 explained why you said at a certain point in time that it was war?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And yesterday you said -- you said that you had said that

16 because: [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... "It was

17 called war."

18 [Interpretation] When you say that it was called war --

19 A. I never mentioned that. I said that there were -- the military

20 police was there because it was war and that was on the Serbian side, or

21 rather, the side that was against us. The Croats and the Muslims didn't

22 mount any resistance, so you could say that there was no war, given that

23 there was only one side. If there is to be a war, you need two sides.

24 That's what I said yesterday, and I'll repeat that again today. Not a

25 single Serb in Sanski Most was wounded, let alone killed. Not even

Page 6691

1 wounded. There was no shooting from our side. We were rounded up and

2 taken away.

3 Q. Would you agree that a state of war hadn't been declared in the

4 Sanski Most area in 1992?

5 A. I don't know. I don't think it was.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

7 the witness Prosecutor's Exhibit P642.

8 Q. Is this a report from the 1st Krajina Corps command?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. And the date is the 27th of May, 1992.

11 A. The 27th of May, 1992. That's correct.

12 Q. Could you have a look at the end of the first paragraph. It's on

13 page 1. It's just above number "2." It starts with the words "at about

14 15 hours."

15 A. Yes. I can see that. That's not correct. There were no Green

16 Berets in Sanski Most. Throughout the entire period of the war, they were

17 never there.

18 Q. Allow me to ask you the question.

19 A. I apologise.

20 Q. This paragraph describes an incident in the Sanski Most area;

21 isn't that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And according to this report, the Green Berets attacked a convoy.

24 Could you answer the question. Because I don't think it was interpreted.

25 A. There were no Green Berets, and there couldn't have been an

Page 6692

1 attack. They didn't exist.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

3 the witness Exhibit P659.

4 Q. Is this a report from the 1st Krajina Corps command dated the 3rd

5 of June, 1992?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. And if you have a look again at the -- towards the end of

8 paragraph 1, just before number "2," it says that there are still

9 individuals and groups -- extremist individuals and groups acting in the

10 Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Kljuc areas; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's what it says here, but that's not correct. In Sanski

12 Most. I don't know about the other two places, Prijedor and Kljuc.

13 Q. There's something in the Serbo-Croat version which wasn't

14 translated into English. I'm going to read it in Serbo-Croat so that the

15 interpreters can read it.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Madam Fauveau.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. "It is to be expected that there will be further fighting in the

19 entire area of the zone of responsibility and that there will be new focal

20 points."

21 A. There were no -- there was no fighting in Sanski Most, and there

22 were no focal points, no places where there were hot points.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. It's quite right. It hasn't

24 been translated. But I don't think it said -- if the translation that's

25 come up is right, it's the area of the zone of responsibility, which as I

Page 6693

1 understand it covers the whole of the first 1st KK, not just Sanski Most.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Ms. Korner.

4 MS. KORNER: And can I while I'm on my feet just make the point

5 that we can all read what's in the documents, but whether we're achieving

6 much by asking the witness whether he agrees with it or not is another

7 matter.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it -- you would have certainly noticed,

9 Ms. Korner, that throughout the last two, three weeks it has -- one of the

10 points that has strongly been contested by the two Defence teams is what

11 exactly happened in Sanski Most before the -- the day or up to the day or

12 on the day when the municipal buildings and the police -- so this is

13 something which is very hotly contested by -- by the Defence, and they are

14 trying to question each witness that we have had, starting with Judge

15 Draganovic.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes. We're having -- well, there are two issues,

17 Your Honour. One is, as I understand it, although no positive suggestion

18 has been made about who it was who was supposed to be there, who was doing

19 the fighting. All that's been suggested along the lines of what was put

20 to Judge Draganovic was that he was saying there was no resistance in

21 order to get his --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. The contestation --

23 MS. KORNER: All right. I don't want to waste time because I want

24 the witness to finish. All I'm saying is that by simply reading documents

25 to him which say what the 1st KK documents say, which he hasn't seen, and

Page 6694

1 the question that's being asked is, "Do you see that's what it says, and

2 he says, "Yes, but I don't agree with it."

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, you have done exactly the same thing with

4 several witnesses.

5 MS. KORNER: All right.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau. Please proceed.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You said that everything that is written in this report is not

9 true, and you also say that there was no resistance.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as Sanski Most is concerned.

12 I don't know about other places other than Sanski Most. There was no

13 resistance in Sanski Most, and there was no shooting. That's -- that's

14 for sure.

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Nevertheless there were armed Croats and Muslims in Sanski Most

17 itself.

18 A. Weapons were surrendered when it started in May. In the camp I

19 saw them bringing it in. In Betonirka they'd bring it in by tractor or in

20 carts drawn by horses. These were hunting guns, et cetera, so I'm sure

21 that there was no resistance, and I'm convinced of this. I know that.

22 Q. When were you in Betonirka -- when you were in Betonirka, it was

23 from the 27th or 28th of May; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, around the 28th of May. Because on the 26th I was in the

25 toilet -- I was locked up in the toilet in MUP, et cetera.

Page 6695

1 Q. And the fighting in Sanski Most was on the 27th of May; isn't that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, around the 27th or 28th, something like that. There was no

4 fighting though. People were brought in and halls were filled up, but

5 there was no fighting. I didn't hear any shooting, apart from shells that

6 would be fired at surrounding villages.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I invite you to move to something different now,

8 Madam Fauveau, please. I think you've made your point and he's made his

9 point on this particular topic.

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. When you were in Manjaca, in the Manjaca camp, you were on good

12 terms with Command Popovic; isn't that correct?

13 A. After the -- after June. Up until June, it was necessary to

14 resist this psychologically. But as time passed, people became convinced

15 that I wasn't the person that they had been told I was according to

16 information from Sanski Most, and this was proved later on and I was

17 released and they greeted me correctly when we parted ways.

18 Q. You mentioned seven persons who had apparently been thrown into

19 the Vrbas River. When did this happen?

20 A. Yes, that's what I heard. Well, it happened when a large group

21 arrived from Sanski Most towards the end of July.

22 Q. You heard about this but you didn't see it.

23 A. Yes, I heard about it, but I didn't see it. That's correct.

24 Q. You couldn't confirm that the person who told you that was telling

25 the truth.

Page 6696

1 A. No, I couldn't.

2 Q. You spoke about death certificates that Colonel Popovic asked you

3 to write and which didn't contain the exact cause of death. Isn't it true

4 to say that Colonel Popovic then sent these certificates, these death

5 certificates, with -- which mentioned a false cause of death to his

6 superiors?

7 A. I don't know what he did with them. But as they are nowhere among

8 these documents from the 1st Krajina Corps and the Crisis Staff, well,

9 that's why it surprises me. But as Mr. Popovic isn't here to give his

10 opinion and his testimony, et cetera -- we parted ways in a nice way. I

11 don't know where he is and I haven't heard anything about him. I'm in

12 Banja Luka very often now.

13 Q. Did Colonel Popovic tell you why he needed false certificates?

14 A. He didn't say anything about that. We didn't talk -- there was

15 not much conversation. Why? Because people were killed. So that it

16 didn't seem as if they died in Manjaca. Probably for that reason.

17 Q. So you allow for the possibility that these false certificates

18 were sent by Colonel Popovic to his superiors.

19 A. I don't know what he did. It wasn't for me to think about that.

20 I wasn't an active officer. I wasn't a soldier in Manjaca. And I had no

21 authority to deal with this.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

23 the witness Exhibit DT2.

24 Q. Is this an order from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps dated

25 the 7th of June, 1992?

Page 6697

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. And if you have a look at paragraph 2. It was ordered that the

3 prisoners should be allowed to receive cigarettes and food from their

4 families, from the Red Cross, and from other religious and humanitarian

5 organisations.

6 A. Yes. I can see that.

7 Q. Isn't it true to say that Merhamet went to Manjaca?

8 A. They say that they went there. But believe me, I wasn't in

9 contact with Merhamet and I didn't see what they brought with them. They

10 did come, but I had no contact with them.

11 Q. But you don't deny the fact that Merhamet went to Manjaca.

12 A. No, I don't deny that. I didn't have any contact with them.

13 Q. And according to paragraph 3 of this order, it was necessary to

14 behave towards the prisoners in a humane and dignified manner, without

15 violence, insults, and it was necessary to provide them with

16 accommodation, sustenance, and medical care for the sick in accordance

17 with the provisions of international war law. That's what it says in this

18 order; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes, that's what it says. And it's written very nicely. But

20 that's not what actually happened.

21 Q. So Colonel Popovic didn't respect this order.

22 A. I don't know. It was not like that, and I do not know who it was

23 that did not respect it.

24 Q. I believe you were in the same stable as Omer Filipovic. Is that

25 correct?

Page 6698

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. And Judge Draganovic was also in that stable, wasn't he?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said sometime ago that the night when Omer Filipovic was

5 killed, you were sleeping in the hospital.

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. On the 3rd June, on page 68, you said the last time that Omer

8 Filipovic left the stable he could not walk under his own steam, that he

9 had to be carried.

10 A. That is correct, yes.

11 Q. And the night when Omer Filipovic left the stable for the last

12 time, were you still in the stable?

13 A. Yes, I was.

14 Q. And therefore the statement, according to which Omer Filipovic

15 that last night left the stable running, would not be true, would it?

16 A. He couldn't. No way. After the few days which preceded it, he

17 simply couldn't do it.

18 Q. This is in the testimony of witness 7.77, page 5089 of the French

19 transcript of the 26th of April.

20 You also spoke about a representative of the Red Cross. Did you

21 personally have the opportunity to talk with the Red Cross

22 representatives -- or representative?

23 A. Well, you know, only when they come to the infirmary. And then we

24 talk about medicines they need to bring. I didn't really dare, because

25 I'd been advised not to talk with them too much, so I didn't just for the

Page 6699

1 sake of my safety.

2 Q. Can you confirm that other prisoners had the opportunity to talk

3 with the representative of the Red Cross without the presence of the

4 guards?

5 A. Well, yes, it did happen. But after that major problems ensued,

6 because night falls and evil comes.

7 Q. Yesterday you said that in Manjaca you were hit by only one

8 person.

9 A. Yes, that was right -- that was immediately after my arrival.

10 That was only that first day in the evening.

11 Q. On the 3rd June, on page 67 of the transcript, you said: [In

12 English] "Nobody beat me."

13 A. No. I didn't count that, because that was sort of putting on

14 record. He didn't beat me as we were getting off the truck. But only

15 when we were down there. And I explained that. When we arrived in the

16 stable and I was talking with military persons, when that one Bula made a

17 sign of cross over me, that policeman when he -- but what I said. That I

18 would never be able to learn, they wouldn't learn it by the morning and I

19 wouldn't want to. Then he hit me and then I flew about 2 metres over all

20 the others. I already explained that. But nobody beat me, and I do not

21 call this beating properly and I wasn't beaten there after that ever. It

22 was only on that first day, and I never said that.

23 Q. [Interpretation] You said on page 57 of the 3rd of June: [In

24 English] That there were 8.700 prisoners in Manjaca.

25 A. Well, there were over 8.000. That was the largest number. But it

Page 6700

1 varied. There would be several hundred -- or several thousand --

2 there was never an equal number of prisoners for two days running.

3 Q. [Interpretation] If I tell you that there were 5.300-something,

4 would you be able to go along with that figure?

5 A. Well, that figure also held true on some days. Sometimes even

6 less.

7 Q. And I tell you that according to this statement, the number 5.436

8 is the total number of prisoners who went through Manjaca. Would you go

9 along with that statement?

10 A. Well, let me tell you. As far as they explained to me. I

11 couldn't count them, because I couldn't do that. But in the commander

12 usually said how many of them were, that is how busy I would be kept, how

13 many people I had to examine and so on and so forth. And this figure did

14 come up of over 8.000, and it was mentioned by people who were running the

15 place. I can't call them administrators because it's a civilian word.

16 Q. Yesterday you spoke about Enver Burnic. And you said -- and that

17 is on page 9 of the LiveNote that Enver Burnic frequently came to Manjaca

18 with the police and also went away with them. I'd like to have this

19 clarified. Do you mean -- did you mean that Burnic worked for the police?

20 A. No. He was kept in Sana. He was under police custody, but he

21 came with them several times in Manjaca. When the policemen came from

22 Sanski Most for investigation, he came with them several times and he came

23 the last time when I told you that they suffocated in the truck because of

24 the lack of air and emaciation and so on and so forth. Then he and that

25 other one, that dentistry student returned that last time with that group.

Page 6701

1 Those -- those who drove away, those who had suffocated, those who had

2 suffocated. After that he never came again nor really was he seen again.

3 And every trace of him is lost. I mean, we do not know what happened to

4 him, just as we do not know what happened that those who had suffocated.

5 I'm certain about that.

6 Q. Do you know why did Burnic come and leave with the police?

7 A. No, I don't. No, I don't know.

8 Q. You spoke about a guard called Bula. Can you tell us until when

9 was this guard in Manjaca?

10 A. Until the very end. Until I left. I said yesterday I don't

11 really hold it much against the police. Whenever we were lined up,

12 whenever there was some trouble, there were always those who ran the

13 police.

14 Q. Isn't it true that after Filipovic's death some guards were

15 removed?

16 A. I wouldn't know that. To be quite honest, yes, they changed.

17 Some left, some came. But there were also some who were there throughout.

18 Q. You were released in November 1992; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, yes, it is.

20 Q. In your statement you said that you were released on the 24th of

21 November. This is page 17.

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Weren't you set free on the 14th of November in point of fact?

24 A. Well, there are two things in collision. I could never really

25 accept either, because I didn't know the date of my release and I never

Page 6702

1 gave it a thought afterwards. I do not deny it.

2 Q. Before you were released, there were also other people who were

3 set free; isn't it true?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. And there were also exchanges of prisoners, weren't there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yesterday you spoke about some Chetniks who were outside the

8 camp. Do you remember that?

9 A. I do. But these are Chetniks who were brought to me. I examined

10 them. And they went on a hunger strike, and they were under custody. And

11 after that, I was asked a few days later what to do with them and I said

12 they should be sent to a military hospital in order to avoid

13 endocrinological changes in their organisms. That is a sickness. And

14 they were driven away and I don't know what happened after that.

15 Q. Isn't it true that at the time when you were in Manjaca outside

16 the camp there was a great deal of insecurity because of the extremist

17 groups which were out of control?

18 A. Possibly. Possibly. It was said that there was security to avoid

19 their breaking in. Nobody was allowed to enter the camp. Even though

20 those who came to supply the camp, when the police from Sanski Most,

21 Prijedor, or Kljuc came, that is where they usually came from -- we knew

22 when they were call -- when there were roll calls then. But it didn't

23 happen very often. And they did on such occasions at times come in and

24 beat, but it didn't happen much. Seldom.

25 Q. Isn't it true that the Manjaca detainees at that time in 1992

Page 6703

1 could not be released without having some accommodations provided for them

2 elsewhere, precisely because of these extremist groups?

3 A. There were -- no, not near. They were usually taken to Banja

4 Luka for exchange or to Travnik, to Jajce, to Knin, and those are those

5 for the most part. They went to Banja Luka or went back to the places

6 where they had come from. But that was a smaller number.

7 Q. Yesterday you spoke about a visit how General Talic visited the

8 camp.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... put the

10 question, since you're opening something different after the break. We'll

11 break for 15 minutes.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 5.34 p.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

17 Wait, wait, wait, wait. We've still got to wait for the accused.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the visit which General Talic made to

20 the Manjaca camp. Did you personally see General Talic there?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. How far were you from General Talic or the person that you saw?

23 A. 30 to 40 metres, give or take.

24 Q. You said that you knew General Talic -- that you had known

25 General Talic before the war.

Page 6704

1 A. Well, let me tell you. Before the war, I'd ask if General Talic

2 knew Colonel Muharem Talic who came to be his assistant and who was from

3 the same place as I was. That is how I knew him. On the 29th and 30th,

4 he was in Sanski Most and then he returned. When they saw the situation,

5 then he was returned from Banja Luka to Belgrade two days later. But I

6 knew Mr. General during the war and before the war.

7 Q. Excuse me. But what was on the 29th and 30th? Who was it on the

8 29th and 30th in Sanski Most?

9 A. The then-General Talic's assistant. And he has the same last

10 name, Muharem Talic. Colonel Muharem Talic.

11 Q. Yeah, right. But can you tell me where did you meet

12 General Talic? How do you know him?

13 A. I know him from television and like this, by sight, from Banja

14 Luka. There were no official meetings or something. I know General Talic

15 by sight.

16 Q. Do you know that -- when did General Talic become the [Realtime

17 transcript read in error "member"] commander of the 5th Corps?

18 A. Well, I heard that he became the commander of the 5th Corps

19 towards the very end of the war -- towards the beginning of the war, on

20 the eve of the war. But don't ask me where.

21 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm going to interrupt about

22 the translation.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake.

24 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... it was when did

25 General Talic become the commander of the 5th Corps. And it's been

Page 6705

1 translated as a member.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Ms. Korner. The -- you are

3 absolutely right.

4 MS. KORNER: I think obviously the translation into B/C/S was

5 all right. But in English, it was wrong.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that it was well

7 interpreted.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ask the witness when did General Talic

9 become the commander of the 5th Corps? That's what we were told. In

10 English at least.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But the

12 interpretation into B/C/S was correct, and because the witness answered

13 that General Talic became the commander.

14 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. If Your Honour looks at the question --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know. You are right.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You're a hundred per cent right.

18 But for the record, you did understand that the question was

19 related to when General Momir Talic became commander, when you came to

20 know that General Talic became commander of the 5th Corps?

21 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]

22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes or no?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we have to -- the computer doesn't tell

Page 6706

1 me --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do you know when did General Talic come to Banja Luka?

6 A. No, I don't. These are military matters. I did not follow that.

7 I wasn't interested in such things.

8 Q. But when did you have the occasion to see General Talic in Banja

9 Luka?

10 A. In Banja Luka -- what do I know. It was on the eve of the war. I

11 went to Banja Luka. I had now -- I never came across any problems when

12 going to Banja Luka and other places. And on television.

13 Q. Do you know who was General Talic's Chief of Staff?

14 A. No, I don't. I know that my neighbour came. That is what he told

15 us in Sanski Most that, he had been sent to be General Talic's assistant

16 both the name sake, same surname. He came to Sanski Most on the 29th. He

17 came to the camp, visited the camp, returned and then two or three days

18 later he went to Belgrade, so that his village went unscathed until 1995,

19 when Arkan returned to his village. His village Sehovci was quiet until

20 1995. That was the colonel's birthplace.

21 Q. This person, Muharem --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Please answer the question and nothing but the

25 question. The question was a very simple one. Do you know who was

Page 6707

1 General Talic's Chief of Staff? You either know or you don't know. If

2 you know, you tell us. Well, that's it, why do I have to hear all this

3 story. I mean, this will keep you here until tomorrow if you continue

4 like this.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I won't. Thank you very

6 much. I'm sorry.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. This person, Muharem Talic, your neighbour, he is a Muslim, isn't

9 he?

10 A. Yes, he is.

11 Q. And he was a member of the Serb army, wasn't he?

12 A. Yes, the Yugoslav People's Army. That is where he became a

13 colonel.

14 Q. Yesterday you said on page 39 that General Talic had visited the

15 camp on two occasions. Do you remember that? It was yesterday.

16 A. I remember it, and I quote. He was 30 or 40 metres away from me.

17 He was in the command. I never said that he was in the stables. And as I

18 heard from the police, he came to visit the troops that were in the

19 training ground at Manjaca, because Manjaca is a training centre. And he

20 was in the command then, and I saw him as he was coming out, when he was

21 on his way, and that is sure. And others also told me that he would be

22 coming. He did not give any lectures. He did not visit the stables.

23 Q. Yesterday you said that he came twice.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If you look at your written statement, the statement to the OTP,

Page 6708

1 page 15 in the English version. It is the second -- the third paragraph,

2 the last sentence. In the B/C/S, it is the penultimate paragraph, the

3 last sentence. You said: [In English] "As far as I know, this was

4 Talic's only visit."

5 A. Well, this is -- I stand by this.

6 Q. [Interpretation] You stand by one visit or two visits?

7 A. I saw him twice. Twice.

8 Q. And if I tell you that you are wrong and that it was not

9 General Talic, would you agree with that?

10 A. I wouldn't.

11 Q. Are you telling us that General Talic came to the camp because you

12 had seen him or because somebody had told you that?

13 A. Because I had seen him. That is why I said that. That is why I

14 say that. And I also heard in advance that he would be coming.

15 Q. And that person whom you saw, you would not say that it is

16 possible that it was somebody else?

17 A. Well, it wasn't far away, so I cannot say that it was not he.

18 True, there are people who look alike, but I do not think that that was

19 so.

20 Q. But you are not really sure that it was General Talic

21 nevertheless.

22 A. Oh, I am sure, yes.

23 Q. You spoke about the conditions in Manjaca.

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

25 the witness Exhibit P807.

Page 6709

1 Q. If you have a look at photograph number 8, the one which is

2 mistakenly marked as a clinic, as an infirmary. This photograph

3 represents a place where you were able to place your patients.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is it correct to say that the infirmary was elsewhere?

6 A. We call it a clinic. It was at a different place, outside the

7 fence. This is inside the camp, behind the first stables.

8 Q. So in fact in the Manjaca camp, there were two places where you

9 could treat sick people; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. Could you have a look at Exhibit P808 now. Is this a photograph

12 of inmates in Manjaca?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And all the detainees, all the inmates in this photograph, have a

15 blanket underneath them; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Here it's correct. These are more serious cases, et

17 cetera. Yes, that's true. You can see there are two men who have plaster

18 casts.

19 Q. So the men who have their -- who have plaster casts, they were

20 given treatment.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And behind the beds of these persons, you can see canisters with

23 water; is that correct?

24 A. I can't really see water canisters. In front of the heads? Yes,

25 I can see two canisters, yes.

Page 6710

1 Q. In fact, there are several of them but some are concealed; is that

2 correct?

3 A. I don't know. I can see two. Maybe a third one towards the end,

4 but I'm not sure. I can see two.

5 Q. The day before yesterday you spoke about the examination of four

6 persons who had a skin disease.

7 A. On the very first day, yes.

8 Q. And at the hearing here -- it's page 55 of the LiveNote, dated the

9 3rd of June -- you said that the soldiers brought medical supplies a few

10 days later.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then with these medical supplies, were you able to treat the

13 sick people with these medical supplies?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. Before the police delivered these medical supplies, did you have

16 any medical supplies?

17 A. No, we didn't.

18 Q. In that case, why did you say in your written statement given to

19 the Office of the Prosecutor - and it's on page 8 in the English version

20 and it's page 8 in the Serbo-Croat version. It's the last sentence in the

21 second paragraph in the English version. And it's the last sentence in

22 the penultimate paragraph in the Serbo-Croat version. You said: [In

23 English] "I was not permitted to treat them." [Interpretation] Didn't you

24 say that?

25 A. No, never.

Page 6711

1 Q. I suppose it's a translation error again. Do you admit that this

2 might be possible?

3 A. I don't know what it is, but I never said that. That's the first

4 time I examined people in Manjaca.

5 Q. And the truth is that in fact the soldiers brought medicine and

6 you were able to treat these people.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also examined a young man whose shoulder had been dislocated.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you recommended that he be taken to Banja Luka; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So in fact -- and in fact he was taken to the hospital in Banja

14 Luka.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And later on you received news about this young man.

17 A. Yes, later, when I had left and gone to Switzerland. From

18 Karlovac this person contacted me over the phone, this young man. He said

19 he was well and he thanked me for what I had done and he thanked those who

20 had helped him in the hospital in Banja Luka.

21 Q. So in fact this young man was taken to the Banja Luka hospital and

22 he was treated there; is that true?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'm going to read an extract from a report from an international

25 organisation written on the basis of a Merhamet report with regard to

Page 6712

1 Manjaca, about Manjaca. It's a report dated June 1992. It's Exhibit

2 P763, communicated -- disclosed to us pursuant to Rule 70

3 [As interpreted]. It's page 3, and it's the first paragraph.

4 [In English] "A delegation from --"

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's come up at Rule 60. It should read

6 Rule 70.


8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.


10 Q. "A delegation from Merhamet visited a prisoner camp at Manjaca

11 mountain where 1.200 persons are held by the army. Material conditions

12 were poor, especially concerning hygiene. But there were no signs of

13 maltreatment or execution of prisoners."

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you answer, Dr. Sabanovic, Ms. Korner --

15 MS. KORNER: I wasn't asked, Your Honour, but I'm happy for it to

16 be dealt with in this way.


18 MS. KORNER: I've been asked on an earlier occasion with another

19 witness. So I'm happy --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I wanted to ensure, because this is

21 also being extracted from a confidential document.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise. I'll

23 do it next time. But as I asked this to -- with regard to the

24 preceding witness, I thought that this authorisation was still valid.

25 Next time I will ask for permission.

Page 6713

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that's what should be done on a

2 regular basis. Don't think anything for granted because each time the

3 question may turn out to be different and one answer could lead to another

4 question and so on and so forth. So we have to be extremely careful.

5 Thank you. You may answer the question. Doctor, the question

6 is: "A delegation from Merhamet visited a prisoner camp at Manjaca

7 mountain where 1.200 persons are held by the army. Material conditions

8 were poor, especially concerning hygiene. But there were no signs of

9 maltreatment or execution of prisoners."

10 Now, your question, Madam Fauveau, to the witness?

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Sir, do you agree with this report?

13 A. I never saw them in Manjaca, nor did they have a look at the

14 hygienic conditions or anything else. I'm not aware of this. I'm not

15 aware of them being there and contacting me, and they didn't check on the

16 hygienic conditions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But again, I mean, you're not answering the

18 question, doctor. The question was: Would you -- if assuming for a

19 moment -- accept for a moment that what is contained in this report,

20 namely that Merhamet reported on what they found in Manjaca and that they

21 stated the words -- or made the statement that I told you, that I read out

22 to you, would you agree that they gave a faithful description of what

23 there was in Manjaca; yes or no? It's not a question of whether they

24 went --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 6714

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No. That's your answer.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a video cassette of the Manjaca camp.

4 I'm going to ask you to have a look at the following part of the same

5 video, an extract which contains Paddy Ashdown's statement when he left

6 the Manjaca camp. And I'm going to ask you to read the subtitles in

7 Serbo-Croat because the sound is very bad.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the video be shown.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: This time it will be your turn to tell the

10 technicians when to stop.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that I've explained

12 everything very well.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: To them already.

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] So I think that they know.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In other words we cannot depend on the

16 witness.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the video be shown.

18 [Videotape played]

19 Q. Sir, can you read the phrase which is on your screen.

20 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you read it out so that the interpreters

22 will translate it to us, because we don't know your language.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "When leaving, he stated that

24 however dismal things might appear".

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you show the

Page 6715

1 following sequence.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Further on. Further on.

4 Q. Could you read that now, please.

5 A. "It seems that this camp is being run correctly."

6 Q. Sir, this video dates back to August 1992. And do you agree with

7 this statement?

8 A. Yes. Well, let's say yes.

9 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I

11 apologise. I've finished earlier.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Okay. Thank you,

13 Madam Fauveau.

14 I suppose the other witness has already been --

15 MS. KORNER: Taken away.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Taken away.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Re-examination?

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think just on the basis of that last one.

20 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:

21 Q. Dr. Sabanovic, you were asked having seen in fact not what the

22 commentators said, do you agree with the statement that the camp is being

23 run correctly? And you said yes, you did agree with that statement.

24 A. I couldn't answer with yes or no here.

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. My question

Page 6716

1 was precise. In August 1992.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

3 The people who seemed to be in a good condition towards the end.

4 Well that's what they said because they had to say such things. That's

5 why I said yes, that was a reason. I could change many things here at

6 this trial, but I'll mention this later.


8 Q. All right.

9 A. If on the basis of the war I'm told about the doors and where the

10 doors are and then you try to judge whether someone is guilty or not,

11 well, some people might know better than I do what's correct and what

12 isn't. Then that surprises me a bit, so I have to react in this way.

13 Q. No. I think the question that you were asked was did you agree

14 with the statement that the camp was being run correctly. And you said --

15 A. I said yes.

16 Q. -- that you couldn't -- you said yes.

17 First of all, do you agree from what you've described to us that

18 this camp was being run correctly, properly?

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] He has just answered that

20 question.

21 MS. KORNER: I know he has.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered it with reference to a particular point

23 in time, Madam Fauveau. That's August of 1992.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat that answer.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreters did not hear what you said. I

Page 6717

1 heard you said Kranja [phoen] or something like that.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that this had all been

3 edited, set up. If I were here -- if I stayed here for a month, we

4 wouldn't be able to arrive at the truth, because all these documents, et

5 cetera, they have -- they contain many things which unfortunately couldn't

6 be explained that easily. So sometimes I skip over something, and I

7 regret that such things happened. It's difficult for me.


9 Q. Dr. Sabanovic, all I want you to just concentrate on is this: You

10 have described to us what you say happened in the camp, the beatings and

11 everything like that. Is what you have told us about that the truth?

12 A. More than the truth.

13 Q. Right at the beginning you looked at the list of the Geneva

14 Conventions that was sent to the camp. You were asked by me whether or

15 not those conventions had been obeyed by the people who ran the camp. Do

16 you remember that?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. I'm going to ask you again. Were the conditions that are set out

19 in that sheet of paper followed by the guards, the commanders of the

20 camp?

21 A. No. The Geneva Conventions weren't respected, not in any sense.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Dr. Sabanovic.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, we have come to the end of your

25 testimony. You will not be asked any further questions now, and you will

Page 6718

1 be able to return to your country and to your work. But before you leave

2 this courtroom, may I on behalf of the Tribunal thank you for having come

3 here to give evidence. I apologise to you if you have been kept waiting

4 for some time and if your testimony was prolonged for a few days, perhaps

5 longer than you expected. And with that, I think I can ask the usher to

6 escort you. Once more, thank you for having come here.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. And I would

8 like to thank everyone else in this courtroom. It wasn't difficult for

9 me. A lot of time has passed, so there were a few things that, et

10 cetera. I don't think I want to lie about anyone and I don't want -- I

11 want to tell the truth and I shall always try to do so. I'm glad if I

12 have satisfied you to a certain extent, and I regret that there were

13 people who were the cause of this evil. And thank you and goodbye.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And have a safe journey home.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Anything further before we can call it a day?

17 MS. KORNER: Yes. First of all, the question of the witnesses.

18 Your Honours should be -- I want to make sure that Your Honours have it.

19 For Witness 7.165, who is the witness after the next witness.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The next one is 7.46. No?

21 MS. KORNER: No. 76.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.76, yes.

23 MS. KORNER: The one after that is 7.165. And Your Honours

24 will -- it was put in front of Your Honours. But I want to make sure now

25 that you have documents.

Page 6719

1 This witness produced a diary.


3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it is a diary that was written

4 effectively about as contemporaneously as you can get shortly after his

5 release in Manjaca. Therefore, I'm proposing to use that and indeed

6 examine him from some of those entries in the diary. So that's why we've

7 copied it for Your Honours.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And I assume that this has been already disclosed.

9 MS. KORNER: It was disclosed to the Defence sometime ago. But

10 just so that you understand, because it's a fuller account of -- he's

11 going to deal with the incidents of suffocation and another incident, and

12 it's a fuller account of that that appeared in his statement.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

14 MS. KORNER: Now, Your Honour, the real difficulty is this:

15 Because we've got the week's break and because we won't be able to start

16 the next witness and I don't know how long the first witness is going to

17 take tomorrow - that's 7.65. He was asked for, as I understand it --

18 Mr. Ackerman, you'll recall we discussed it, didn't require his attendance

19 at all but Madam Fauveau did, and there's no dispute about the killing.

20 So if the reality is -- Ms. Richterova will be calling the witness and

21 estimates that to call him in chief is something in the region of -- if

22 there's no objection to leading and the rest, then will take something

23 between an hour and an hour and a half. So let's say the first part of

24 the session. If Madam Fauveau can finish her cross-examination within the

25 second part, leaving the next witness to start for after the second break,

Page 6720

1 I have no doubt that that -- this witness in chief is going to take the

2 best part of a session, because he's got so much detail of what actually

3 happened. So I therefore would like some indication given, if that's

4 possible, first as to whether it's -- it's likely that his

5 cross-examination will be concluded on the Friday. He gives no direct

6 evidence against either accused. He's not going to say that he saw them

7 in Manjaca -- or whether or not he's not going to finish, in which case

8 he'll have to go for a week and whether that's a desirable attribute.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as tomorrow's

11 witness is concerned, I think that 45 minutes or one hour at the most will

12 be sufficient for me. But obviously that depends on the

13 examination-in-chief.

14 As for as the Friday witness is concerned, I have no idea. I

15 really couldn't say.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, Mr. Ackerman?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: It's virtually impossible to -- for me to say that

18 we can complete all examinations of both these witnesses by Friday at

19 close of business. We haven't heard their direct. It has not happened

20 yet that a witness has testified totally in accordance with their

21 statements. There's always new material. And so it's just difficult to

22 do. I -- if the Court wants to be safe and not have him gone in the midst

23 of his testimony, then we shouldn't call him, 'cause that's the safe

24 thing. But we did that with Judge Draganovic, and I don't think it caused

25 any serious problem that he had to leave and come back. And this guy will

Page 6721

1 have to leave and come back in any event, so it seems to me we get as far

2 as we can and bring him back afterward if we have to. But if you don't

3 want to break up his testimony, then I would say let's send him home

4 tomorrow. It's up to you, Your Honour. I mean --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know it's up to us, but the question is I -- there

6 are several issues involved, and I would rather -- what's your preference,

7 Ms. Korner?

8 MS. KORNER: Well, I -- I don't have a particular preference at

9 all. He's here. He arrived yesterday. I can certainly conclude his

10 evidence in chief by Friday, unless there's a lot more cross-examination

11 of the first witness tomorrow than I anticipate. So he can go back -- he

12 can start and go back.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Because as I see it, I can hardly recall one single

14 witness that we disposed of in just one session.

15 MS. KORNER: I think we've had two so far.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But it's the exception rather than the rule.

17 This one, if he's got this diary -- I don't know. I'm not very

18 optimistic that we could actually start and finish. And in that case,

19 from the --

20 MS. KORNER: What I'm not anxious to do, Your Honour is waste any

21 time at all. I've had a look at the July schedule, and to my horror we're

22 sitting something like ten days in the whole of July, which is just, if I

23 may put it that way, ludicrous.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But we are not the only ones, you know.

25 MS. KORNER: No. I know. It's just as scheduling, it just

Page 6722

1 beggars belief. However, so what I'm not anxious to do is to lose any

2 time.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if you think that the course of justice would

4 not be endangered in any way by having him returned to where he comes

5 from, having started giving evidence, as we did with Judge Draganovic,

6 after all, then we can proceed that way and we wouldn't have wasted a

7 day. In any case, I mean the assumption is that if we send him straight

8 away home now and bring him back after the end of next week, the expense

9 from the cost -- cost to the Tribunal point of view --

10 MS. KORNER: Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- is not going to be --

12 MS. KORNER: No. It's not the expense. It's --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I'm not giving that any importance.

14 MS. KORNER: Yes. The thing that concerns me, Your Honour, is

15 this: It's becoming gradually apparent that the part of the Defence case,

16 as being run by Mr. Ackerman, is that there is a great big conspiracy

17 going on in Sanski Most, effectively orchestrated by AID. The witness

18 lives in Sanski Most. He will be going back to Sanski Most. What I'm

19 anxious not to have to happen is that we're then going to spend -- waste

20 half an hour or so on a series of questions about who he's spoken to and

21 who he's seen in Sanski Most and any changes to his evidence and the

22 like. And that's -- that's what's concerning me at the moment.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman never -- never puts such questions.

24 I've never heard him put such --

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Absolutely. I was just going to say that.

Page 6723

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

2 MS. KORNER: Absolutely. Not a single question about AID, who

3 he's seen, and we waste 20 minutes thereabouts every single time there's a

4 witness from Sanski Most. And that's what concerns me at the moment.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: He's never mentioned --

6 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may try

8 to facilitate your work. As you know, I'm all by myself still this week.

9 I hope that I was cooperative, just like my client, who agreed to be

10 represented by me only for a longer period. However, I seriously doubt

11 that I shall be able to properly prepare the cross-examination of a third

12 witness, if he comes on Friday.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Fauveau, let me say it in open court

14 that this Chamber has not had for a single moment any reason, small or

15 big, to doubt your cooperation. You have -- and that applies to

16 Mr. Ackerman as well. You have been most cooperative. I must say that.

17 However - however - we have to take a decision now.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Ms. Korner, the -- this Chamber tends at

20 not wasting Friday doing nothing. I mean, it's -- as you say --

21 MS. KORNER: Oh, I wasn't -- I wasn't suggesting for one moment --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I know that. But I think we ought to bring

23 this witness here on the first occasion, after we have disposed of the

24 previous one, and he starts his evidence. And then we'll take it up from

25 there, and he will return when necessary to continue and conclude his

Page 6724

1 evidence if he needs to return. I think that's the best way. Otherwise

2 we would be wasting another day, which -- we don't have anything else to

3 do.

4 MS. KORNER: I don't -- well, we do, actually, Your Honour. But

5 I -- can I just mention the outstanding matters that are not yet dealt

6 with in the last remaining minutes.


8 MS. KORNER: First of all, Variant A and B. There's been a ruling

9 in the Samac case. I can take it from that that it is now accepted that

10 that document is admitted without us having to call further evidence to

11 support its authenticity? Because Mr. Ackerman said that they were

12 awaiting the ruling in the Samac case. There has been such a ruling.

13 If -- if there is still the residual doubt that this is a

14 document that was issued by the SDS and referred to in countless other

15 documents, publications, speeches, well, then we will call all the

16 evidence before Your Honour that was called in the Samac case. I'm merely

17 listing now the issues that are still not resolved.

18 Secondly, Your Honour, we still haven't resolved or haven't been

19 told as to whether the redactions in the Rule 92 Banja Luka statement are

20 acceptable.

21 Third, we still have Mr. Ackerman's application to enter into

22 evidence the transcript of a witness from a previous case. And we made

23 brief submissions. But Mr. Ackerman, when I heard say last week when I

24 objected to, I retain the objection, and I await with interest

25 Mr. Ackerman's grounds for saying it's admissible or relevant or this

Page 6725

1 case.

2 I'm trying think, there was one other matter I've now lost it

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Dzonlic?

4 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know --

6 MS. KORNER: There is Mr. Dzonlic's documents. And I'm perfectly

7 certain there are some other bits and pieces.

8 But Your Honour, all those are still to the best of my

9 recollection outstanding matters which ought to be dealt with at some

10 stage.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The Variant A and B, I don't know if you are

12 in a position or prepared to make a statement now, today. If you're not,

13 you will have time to do that. But we will need to know exactly where we

14 stand so that if evidence needs to be brought forward, it will be brought

15 forward without delay.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: There is an intervening fact -- and I don't want to

17 make an argument based on the intervening fact until I have more

18 knowledge. I'm told by a lawyer from the Bosanski Samac case that one of

19 the things that developed during that was that the document had been --

20 had been originally handed to the Prosecutor by Alispahic who is the

21 person who is the number one charged in Sarajevo with engaging in

22 terrorist activities and things of that nature. Now, I don't know if

23 that's true and I can't know if that's true until I look into it a little

24 further. That's just information that I have. If that's true, it could

25 affect how I feel about that document.

Page 6726

1 With regard to the Rule 92 Banja Luka documents, I have no

2 objection to them having been -- the changes that have been made to them.

3 With regard to the transcript from the previous case, what I said

4 in court when Ms. Korner was not here was that I believe that she wanted

5 to argue that to Your Honours, and I therefore would not offer it without

6 giving her the opportunity to argue against it. If Your Honours want to

7 hear my basis for it being admitted, I'd be happy to tell you.

8 With regard to the Dzonlic documents, I told you last week that I

9 had decided to send them off to CLS for translation and would enter them

10 as exhibits -- or seek to enter them as exhibits when they returned. So

11 that's where I stand on all of those things.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's --

13 MS. KORNER: Well, first of all -- sorry, Your Honour.

14 First of all, no, the onus is on Mr. Ackerman to show why a

15 transcript of a -- of examination of a witness that's got nothing to do

16 with this case relating to another person that's got nothing to do with

17 this case should be admissible. It's not for me to. It's for him to

18 justify it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And I say so subject to correction. I may be

20 completely confusing matters. But I am under the impression that when

21 this matter arose, subsequently, as the -- your cross-examination

22 progressed, it was more or less superseded by events. I mean, I got that

23 impression. I don't know. I may be confusing matters. But I got the

24 impression that at the end, you sort of abandoned the idea of needing --

25 and that you would reserve your position for later once you have verified

Page 6727

1 some other events that you were referring to. I may be -- I may be

2 completely going astray, Mr. Ackerman.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: You're not. You're not.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think -- that's the impression that I formed

5 in my mind.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: You're not. And you've reminded me of, I think,

7 exactly what I said about that. There's this whole -- there's this whole

8 issue that is under investigation, both by the Prosecutor's Office and by

9 us, regarding the AID issue. And I was last told by Mr. Cayley that there

10 are about four boxes of material coming from Sarajevo regarding that

11 matter.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you be requesting an adjournment of two weeks,

13 one month?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think I'll need any adjournment at all.

15 I'm satisfied the Prosecutor will provide us with whatever material is in

16 those four boxes that is relevant to the credibility of any documents that

17 might have come from AID. And so I'm awaiting that.

18 I'm also frankly awaiting more information from Sarajevo about the

19 nature of that case and what the exact charges are. As I understand it

20 now, there has actually been no indictment filed yet. It's still in the

21 early investigative stages. There are charges and five people are in

22 jail, and I think that's as far as it's gone. And so I think -- I'm quite

23 certain I'll be filing something with regard to that whole matter. But

24 because of the way we're handling exhibits, we have until almost the last

25 moment for the Court to determine how it's going to treat various

Page 6728

1 exhibits. So it's not something that I think has to be dealt with

2 immediately.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. My recollection, Mr. Ackerman, I think

4 actually when this evolved further, what happened was that first there was

5 an agreement forthcoming from you that -- and at that moment you were

6 still here present -- that you would postpone this till the -- towards the

7 end of the testimony of the cross-examination -- or your cross-examination

8 of that particular witness.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: That's correct.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But towards the end. Then you came to the

11 conclusion that there was no point in pushing any further your previous

12 request for admitting -- having this transcript admitted, that you will

13 maybe feel the need to do that again at some later point in time but

14 obviously in reference to some other witness or some other evidence that

15 you would bring over.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it's --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's my recollection.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: You're dead right. It is tied up with what I think

19 may be a larger issue, and it doesn't bear consideration outside

20 consideration of that larger issue. So let's leave it for the moment.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then one other thing -- one other matter

22 which is outstanding, Ms. Korner, is the --

23 MS. KORNER: Sorry.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: -- statement of the dead --

25 MS. KORNER: Yes. We're waiting -- Your Honour, that's going to

Page 6729

1 wait until after the Prijedor section, which will now be September.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 MS. KORNER: Because it relates to the witness who's going to

4 come.


6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I just want to make it absolutely clear

7 that that transcript doesn't even remotely begin to get entered as any

8 kind of exhibit, whether it's a temporary acting exhibit, an unpaid

9 exhibit, or whatever exhibit, until this has been argued, because I object

10 to that in its entirety.

11 Your Honour, as far as Mr. Dzonlic is concerned -- and I'm sorry,

12 it may have been last week and I missed it -- so I understand that

13 Mr. Ackerman is in fact going to enter all the documents we gave him as

14 exhibits?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In fact, I remember him stating that those

16 will become Defence exhibits.

17 MS. KORNER: Fine. Okay. Well, in that case, otherwise we'd

18 simply enter them ourselves. But I'm perfectly happy for it to go in

19 through the Defence.

20 And as far as the dead witness is concerned --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The situation hasn't changed.

22 MS. KORNER: -- the situation will have to wait.

23 And just -- I did say this once but perhaps I ought to remind Your

24 Honours and the Defence. The next municipality will be Kljuc. The

25 document -- the List of Documents is being prepared and I think will be

Page 6730

1 given to the Defence this Friday before the break. And it may be that

2 Your Honours will get the bundles as well.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you for providing us with that

4 information now.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes. And Your Honour, we'll be doing the Rule 92

6 motion as well over the next week.

7 Your Honour, what we are anxious to try and achieve, which is why

8 I'm somewhat distressed about the few days we appear to be sitting in July

9 with court maintenance and the like, is to complete Kljuc municipality

10 by the end of July, by the time of the break, which I understand is

11 the 26th.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We still have -- Sanski Most you still have --

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we have three or four crime-based

14 witnesses left.


16 MS. KORNER: There is one witness -- and I can't remember his

17 number -- who has got cancer and we're having inquiries made this week.

18 Oh, I see that -- I wonder if I could borrow -- thank you.

19 Your Honour, it's the witness number 7.59. It may be, Your

20 Honour, that we'll have to try and do him through videolink. We're making

21 inquiries this week to see whether he's fit to travel. But we should

22 complete witnesses on the list numbers 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31 -- well, 32,

23 Your Honour, I can just remind Your Honours has to testify on Friday, the

24 21st of July. So that's the week after we come back. I'm tempted to ask

25 Your Honours to cancel the week's holiday, but I know that would cause a

Page 6731

1 lot of problems.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: 21st of July we will be changing -- I remember --

3 that's when we are changing the courtroom -- or no. 21st of July anyway.

4 Yes. But we still have 14 witnesses here. Okay. Two of them are

5 Rule 92?

6 MS. KORNER: Sorry. 21st of June. Did I say July.


8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. June. No, Your Honour, we don't have 14

9 witnesses left. The ones at the bottom are Rule 92.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the last two.

11 MS. KORNER: The last one certainly we -- yeah, we may -- I think

12 we do. We have 12. Your Honour is right.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have 12, plus two Rule 92.

14 MS. KORNER: And we've got BT21.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And you have BT21.

16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, we're going to try -- we're trying

17 to get them through quickly. As I say -- [Microphone not activated] May I

18 make this absolutely clear. Your Honours perfectly -- Your Honours are

19 perfectly entitled to stop examination-in-chief --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours are perfectly entitled to stop

23 examination-in-chief if Your Honours have heard sufficient on a particular

24 issue or if Your Honours feel that it's unnecessary to go any further. We

25 can't second-guess what's in Your Honours' mind. So for example, Your

Page 6732

1 Honours may feel you've heard enough about Manjaca but we don't know

2 that. There's been no challenge to it but there's been general challenge

3 to the credibility of the witnesses. So a number of these witnesses have

4 been in Manjaca and are going to be saying the same things.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's again -- saying there has been no challenge is

6 not precise, because for example today the witness was questioned on the

7 correctness or otherwise or the -- of statements made by Merhamet,

8 statements made by Paddy Ashdown. So even the conditions are being

9 contested. This is -- I don't think that there is anything in this case

10 so far except for maybe a killing or two that has not been contested as a

11 fact.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, then --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is problem. I mean --

14 MS. KORNER: But it's -- but Your Honours are -- in the end

15 result, Your Honours can say -- because we can go on calling witnesses

16 forever, and will if that's what's required to convince Your Honours that

17 Manjaca was not a particularly pleasant place, to put it at its lowest.

18 It's not just these witnesses, Your Honour. It's witnesses from Kljuc

19 that we're going to hear, who went to the same place.

20 It seems to me that yes, of course there is directly respond -- we

21 hold -- no question about it, we allege that General Talic is directly

22 responsible for not controlling the conditions in that camp. When I say

23 there's been no challenge, there's been no challenge to individual

24 beatings or killings or the like, because obviously there can't be. You

25 know, it's not suggested that either of these two defendants, accused,

Page 6733

1 directly participated in that. But Your Honour, we have to -- somebody

2 has to somehow get a hold of, if you like, this case. We're trying, but

3 one of the real problems is -- and Mr. Ackerman will have his say -- is

4 that appreciating it's a document-heavy case, we have to go through the

5 aspects of the case that are obviously part and parcel of the crime base.

6 Cross-examination is exceedingly lengthy and sometimes, Your

7 Honour, in our submission, doesn't go to the root of the matter.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not comment -- going to comment on that.

9 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour, I'm saying --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: In the case of this witness, for example, this last

11 one, even the examination-in-chief was supposed to last a day, if I

12 remember correctly, when you first started or indicated to us -- when I

13 asked you how long did you expect -- well, it lasted double.

14 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, I said it would take just over a

15 day, and it did.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It lasted much more than a day.

17 MS. KORNER: No. It finished at the first break, or just after,

18 in fact. Mr. Ackerman --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: What's today?

20 MS. KORNER: Today is Wednesday. It started on Monday.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We continued yesterday.

22 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. You mean the whole -- Your Honour, I can

23 only estimate examination-in-chief.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. And so can we. I mean, we don't know. And

25 this is the problem. Because the way the witness answers will very much

Page 6734

1 condition then the whole examination-in-chief or the cross-examination.

2 This witness, when I -- when I drew his attention, answer yes or no, we

3 went much speedier and Madam Fauveau could finish her cross-examination in

4 half of what she expected or she had told us it would last.

5 MS. KORNER: It's the form of the -- it's the form of the question

6 as well, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I know. I know, Ms. Korner. But I think what

8 we need to do is that Prosecution should pick the best witnesses, say, on

9 Manjaca. If you think that you have six, seven, eight key witnesses,

10 describe from -- from Sanski Most who are in a position to provide the

11 Trial Chamber with whatever you want to prove with regard to the

12 conditions in Manjaca, you can stop there. But that's --

13 MS. KORNER: Well, then, Your Honour, I could stop now, because

14 I've had two witnesses give evidence of what happened in Manjaca. The

15 witness who's coming either tomorrow or Friday -- well, Your Honours, I

16 would invite Your Honours to have a look at what's in the -- I say diary.

17 It's more of a --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It has arrived now and we'll have to.

19 Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Please don't be long so that we --

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Ms. Korner said a lot of things, and I should

21 have a right to respond to them.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I know. But if you want, you can have your

23 time tomorrow so that we don't keep the staff here more than we promised

24 they would stay.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, then let's let them go, and I'll --

Page 6735

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You will --

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll depend on speaking with you first thing in the

3 morning.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll deal with this first thing in the

5 morning. I think that's better.

6 Thank you. My apologies to the technical staff and to the

7 interpreters.

8 Yes. I wanted to announce that there is a further change again,

9 because the changes in Milosevic and changes in Simic and we will have to

10 move back to Courtroom I tomorrow. Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

12 at 6.36 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

13 the 6th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.