1 Friday, 7 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,
7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you
9 hear me in a language that you can understand?
10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your
11 Honour. I can hear you and understand you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
13 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a
14 language that you can understand?
15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
16 I can hear you in a language I understand.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] But the mike isn't working.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please check -- yes, it's working now, your
20 microphone. It's working now. Okay. You may sit down, General Talic.
21 Thank you.
22 Appearances for the Prosecution.
23 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner and Anna Richterova assisted by Denise
24 Gustin case manager, good afternoon, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Ms. Korner.
1 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
2 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. My
3 name is Trbojevic. With me is lead counsel, Mr. Ackerman, and our
4 assistant Marela Jevtovic.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you.
6 Appearances for General Talic.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,
8 Mr. President, Your Honours. I am Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau, representing
9 General Talic.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good afternoon to you.
11 I understand there are some preliminaries? Yes, Madam Fauveau.
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, I should like
13 to draw attention to a problem of interpretation. Yesterday on page 71 of
14 the LiveNote, I said I was not discussing the conditions at the hospital.
15 This was translated as: [In English] "I don't contest the conditions that
16 may have prevailed in that hospital." [Interpretation] Actually I don't
17 think that that is the fault of the interpreters, because the word
18 "debattre" has several meanings in the French language. But what I
19 wanted to say was at this point in time I was not debating -- I was not
20 addressing myself to the conditions in the hospital.
21 Another point is that I should like to ask the permission of the
22 Chamber to be able in the presence of the registrar or someone -- some
23 other official, if I may examine the Red Cross documents in the possession
24 of the witness, because I have serious doubts to -- serious doubts as to
25 the fact that the witness does not have two documents but in fact three
1 documents in his possession.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if he has three and he has chosen to bring
3 forward two, I'm not going to let you have the third one unless you tell
4 me -- you give me a good reason. But it's -- if -- he has no right -- he
5 is under no obligation -- he was under no obligation to bring those two
6 documents in the first place.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what he says
8 is that these documents show that he was in the prison in Tunjice, and I
9 am contesting that. And I think that those documents don't prove it.
10 They put -- he put two documents together to prove that. And these are
11 separate documents. And if we look at them separately, there's absolutely
12 no proof.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems to me that he had two documents yesterday.
14 We'll call him. If he still has them -- there's no question of not having
15 a photocopy of the same documents, because they were handed over to the
16 usher, and the usher went to photocopy straight away. So unless it's a
17 question of authenticity, I don't even see why you should even look at the
18 originals again. But if he has them and it is necessary to see them
19 again, we'll see them again. But otherwise, the -- I have no reason, and
20 I see no plausible reason, why the -- what you have, what you were given
21 yesterday, whether that is in reality the document that he showed us
22 yesterday. And that's about it. I mean, I'm not going to force a witness
23 to show us other documents that he doesn't want to show us -- if he has
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The document that is he
1 showed us are three documents and not two.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll check that. I only saw two. I am not
3 excluding that he may have a third -- may have had a third one yesterday,
4 but I only saw two.
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you look at the
6 photocopy of DT18 Defence exhibit, it is quite clear that these are two
7 separate documents.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Oh, yes, that I remember. That, I remember.
9 Because this document had this small piece of paper in front -- folding
10 and lifting it. So this -- if you want to consider it as a separate piece
11 of paper, yes, it is a separate piece of paper. But it was attached to
12 this one. And then the other document that he had was this one.
13 They were photocopied by the usher, so it's -- there's no question of not
14 having photocopied the document that is the witness had. I don't
15 understand you -- I don't understand the logic behind your -- your request
16 at this point.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] My only problem is the
18 problem --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll get the documents.
20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- DT18. Because there's
21 absolutely no proof that the document at the bottom is attached to the
22 document on top. And it doesn't -- the document that mentions the prison of
23 Tunjice does not bear the name of the witness.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Bring the witness --
25 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... we're just
1 searching the transcript. The witness is actually saying -- and it may be
2 that better be clarified -- he was in Banja Luka Hospital in a ward that
3 had been assigned to people from --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The urology and then -- the urology ward there was a
5 cell. That's what he kept saying yesterday.
6 MS. KORNER: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: First 8 and then 9.
8 MS. KORNER: Yes, that's right. But it's Banja Luka Hospital.
9 It's not the actual prison itself. Okay.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's for sure. We're not talking of a prison
11 compound outside -- outside the hospital of Banja Luka. Definitely not.
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. That was quite clear
13 during the testimony of the witness.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So the witness.
15 Now, we have a problem. You're not the only ones with problems.
16 Fortunately I -- due to an emergency I need to leave today and not later
17 than 6.00. So in other words, we need to finish a little bit earlier.
18 May I rely on your cooperation and have one break only, instead of
19 two today?
20 Yes. But first we'll go step by step.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no problem with that. And let
22 me just say while I'm on my feet that I had difficulty with scheduling
23 next week, and I'm actually arriving back in The Hague on Monday. My
24 flight is due to arrive at Schiphol at around 11.00. It shouldn't cause
25 my problem with my being here at 2.15. But I just want to alert you to
1 the problem that if there's a weather problem or something like that, I'm
2 running on a pretty tight window there. But there's not much I can do
3 about it.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That will be understandable. And in any
5 case, I can guarantee you that the Tribunal will take all the necessary
6 measures --
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it is in fact -- unfortunately the whole
8 business is now creating a problem, because we slowed up. Unlike
9 everybody else, I'm going to have the deal with the Stakic case next week,
10 and I'm going to be in court calling a witness next week and Stakic is not
11 sitting on Friday. And it's a long witness, Thursday and -- Wednesday and
12 Thursday of next week. This witness we're about to call next is clearly
13 not going to finish today in chief. So it may be that on the Monday week
14 I'm going to find myself in two courts at the same time with a witness.
15 And how we're going to resolve that is something I'm quite unclear about.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Korner, when these problems arise, just make a
17 suggestion and we'll come along. Because as long as these things don't
18 happen capriciously, you will find the full understanding of the Tribunal.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So, tell me what you would like and I will
21 accommodate you has I will accommodate the Defence if these problems
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what I'm hoping to do is to complete the
24 witness in the Stakic case in chief in the two days -- we're sitting all
25 day, I understand, in the Stakic case next week. And then have somebody
1 else take over at that stage, because it's more difficult to have another
2 lawyer take over a witness in mid-stream. But I'm just raising that in
3 case it arises.
4 But can I just tell Your Honours that we've reorganised the
5 witness list.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see that.
7 MS. KORNER: Because again we have to get in the witnesses. 7.139
8 and 143 are the witnesses who are both reluctant to attend and had to be
9 persuaded. And we gave them a date. So they need to come in definitely
10 next week, as does the next witness, 7.52. So we -- I'm afraid we've had
11 to alter the order again.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- so number 27 --
13 MS. KORNER: Number 27 will follow on, I should imagine at the
14 moment it's now going to be Tuesday. And then number 28, 29, and 30.
15 They are all what I call effectively crime base witnesses.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.
17 MS. KORNER: So I would hope that we could get through them fairly
19 And then 7.52 will be testifying here on Friday. And then the
20 following week in the Stakic case. So again, I'd hope that we could
21 complete his evidence in total on the Friday.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please try to liaise as much as you can with
23 the Defence so that this is pretty much clear for -- it would be pretty
24 much clear for them as well to know exactly what to expect and when,
25 because it's more important for the Defence than it is for the -- for the
1 Trial Chamber because we most of the time listen while they have to
2 prepare --
3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's why this list has been
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But in other words, is this what you provided
6 today the correct -- the final? Or are you even -- are you changing this
8 MS. KORNER: No.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the final.
10 MS. KORNER: That's a change from the list that we last gave you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes. That's definite. That definitely is a
13 MS. KORNER: Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So we start with 7.13?
15 MS. KORNER: No. On Monday, whatever it is, the 17th or whatever,
16 it will be still the witness from today I anticipate.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Okay. All right. And after this will
18 come --
19 MS. KORNER: After that --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.13 will be immediately after.
21 MS. KORNER: Yes. And Your Honour, we're considerably trying to
22 reduce the list as well and we'll reduce this list even more.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That will be even before.
24 You see, without imposing you get the same result sometimes even
25 better. Without imposing.
1 MS. KORNER: Oh, I'm sorry. I see what Your Honour -- sorry. I'd
2 lost Your Honour for a moment.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I try to make you all understand that --
4 why I stick to the system that I have adopted, because more or less it
5 gives you the opportunity to take decisions better. And that way we move
7 Good. Anyway, where is the witness?
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Stojic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you kindly repeat once more today the solemn
12 declaration that you made yesterday.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: GRGO STOJIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
18 By any chance -- yesterday you showed us some documents that you
19 had from the Red Cross. Do you have them here with you today?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can I have a look at them, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: What's this other document in the back here? What
1 is it?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My brothers, Ivo and Ante, sent me a
3 visa for entry into the Republic of Croatia.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to see that?
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please show these documents to Madam Fauveau
7 and then to the Prosecutor and to Mr. Ackerman, for whatever they are
9 Are you interested in that other document that we didn't see
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But I
12 think it would perhaps be better for me to begin with my cross-examination
13 and things will be clarified through the cross-examination.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you have any objection at all that we
15 photocopy that document too?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have it photocopied once Mr. Ackerman and
18 Madam -- and Ms. Korner have finished with it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have here a visa too
20 with the stamp indicating when I crossed the border into the Republic of
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it was given to me in Caritas.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like it to be copied, yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll photocopy that too and we'll have it
3 And in the meantime, you can hand this document to Ms. Korner --
4 to Madam Fauveau, and it will take its round, if it is important.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next document I have is from the
7 municipal Red Cross organisation of Banja Luka, which I used as a pass to
8 reach Novska -- it served as a pass for me to reach Novska.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you interested in that as well, Madam Fauveau?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like this to be disclosed too.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I can't comment when I
12 don't know what the document says.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But he told you what it is.
14 Anyway, we'll photocopy that too and then we'll decide whether you
15 want to have them admitted as --
16 He has a lot of documents here, and I don't want to go ahead
17 having to go through each and every one of these documents. I mean, it
18 doesn't make sense.
19 Madam Fauveau, please, your cross-examination.
20 Yes. Photocopy them and then we'll see them later.
21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar give
22 the witness DT19, please.
23 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic: [Continued]
24 Q. [Interpretation] This document was issued in Zagreb, the 27th of
25 January 1993?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It is a form of the Red Cross, isn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And on this form, certain information was written in advance,
5 whereas other information is added case by case, on a case-by-case basis,
6 regarding the person in question; is that right?
7 A. What do you mean a case-by-case basis?
8 Q. For instance, if you look at the fourth line, it says "in
9 prison." Those are the words to be found on the printed form.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Whereas "Banja Luka" was added subsequently.
12 A. You have to add. It is a form that needs to be filled in.
13 Q. And on this form, after the word "Banja Luka," there is no
14 "Tunjice," -- the word "Tunjice," does not appear.
15 A. Yes. But you have it on another document where it says
17 Q. My question is with respect to this document. I'm asking you
18 about this document.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, why -- I cannot allow a witness to
20 justify the entries in a document for which he is not responsible. I
21 mean, these entries were made by other persons. Unless you are suggesting
22 that he made those entries.
23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: How can you expect him to give you an explanation?
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: You should ask from the person -- what persons who
2 are responsible for the entries in these documents.
3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that a
4 representative of the Red Cross will come to testify here. This document
5 was issued in Croatia in 1993.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you expect him to answer you, to explain to
7 you --
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... and in another
10 one there isn't?
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll come to the other
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Then come to the other document.
14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like no know
15 whether the witness knows regarding document DT19. It is indicated that
16 the document was done on the basis of a statement by the authorities.
17 Q. Do you know whether those authorities were Croatian authorities?
18 A. That refers to the authorities in Banja Luka.
19 Q. But that is not indicated on the document.
20 A. It is indicated on another document.
21 Q. But on this one it is not indicated.
22 A. What is your aim? Are you contesting the accuracy of the
23 International Committee of the Red Cross?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojic, please don't argue with the lawyer, with
25 Defence counsel, who is here to do her duty. So don't argue with her.
1 Answer the question. If it is not a legitimate question, I will stop you
2 from answering, but otherwise just answer the question. No arguments,
3 please. And I'm sure you understand.
4 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Is it correct that on this document which authorities are in
7 question is not indicated?
8 A. I have no comment to make to such questions.
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar give
10 the witness document DT18, please.
11 Q. There are indeed two documents on this piece of paper; isn't that
13 A. Yes, that is true.
14 Q. The first is a message which Ante and Ivo Stojic sent you while
15 you were still at the hospital in Banja Luka; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. And the visa was attached to that document; is that true?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. So actually you received this document while you were at the
20 hospital in Banja Luka together with the visa.
21 A. I did not receive that document in Banja Luka at all. It is
22 clearly stated up there next to the stamp that the Croatian Red Cross took
23 over from the International Committee of the Red Cross on the 25th of
24 February, 1993. And I was already in Croatia then.
25 Q. I see well that that is what it says on top and also on the bottom
1 it says "11th of December, Tunjice, released." The problem is that
2 nothing proves that this was entered by the Red Cross. Nothing on this
3 document prove that is?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, that's an argument. That's a submission,
5 Madam Fauveau, not a question.
6 So don't answer that question.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. To enter Croatia, you needed a visa, didn't you?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. And before entering Croatia, you didn't receive the visa.
11 A. I did.
12 Q. How did you obtain it?
13 A. I obtained it in Caritas in Banja Luka.
14 Q. And how did Caritas obtain the visa, if you know?
15 A. You need to ask a representative of Caritas that.
16 Q. So according to you, the Croatian authorities at the same time
17 issued two visas for one and the same person.
18 A. The visa was copied and certified as being authentic.
19 Q. Yes. The two visas that you showed here have been certified. I
20 agree with you fully.
21 The document at the very bottom of DT18 actually is a photocopy.
22 You don't have the original of that document?
23 A. It's a photocopy, yes. But on the back, it has been certified.
24 So it is a trustworthy document. I have the original on me.
25 Q. In any event, that document makes no mention of your name.
1 A. Which one?
2 Q. The small piece of paper at the very bottom where a person was
3 liberated on the 11th of December, 1992 from the Tunjice prison.
4 A. As far as I know, it is attached to the message of the
5 International Committee of the Red Cross.
6 Q. And this Red Cross message is where?
7 A. In Banja Luka.
8 Q. So the Red Cross in Banja Luka gave you only this piece of paper
9 without your name, without your address, without anything.
10 A. My name is indicated here.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova.
12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I have an objection, because I can't see any
13 point of this cross-examination.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not completely relevant. But my objection
15 would be that the witness has already answered this question. He said one
16 was attached to the other. That's how he got it.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] This document is a message
20 from family members of the witness to the witness, through the
21 intermediary of the Red Cross. It is not a message from the Red Cross of
22 Banja Luka to the witness. So my question is --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... an argument.
24 Put a question, and we move. Because this is becoming impossible.
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did you receive any other message from the Red Cross together with
2 the small document at the bottom of Exhibit DT19. [In English] DT18.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. DT18.
4 A. That was all that was attached to that message. And a second
5 message - just a moment, please - is this one that I received from my
6 brother. That is the one I received while in prison in the hospital. It
7 was given -- brought to me by a delegate of the International Committee of
8 the Red Cross.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, it's two, three sheets of paper. And
10 frankly I don't know the relevance of them, why they are here in the first
11 place. I admitted the first two yesterday.
12 MS. KORNER: Well, I think we're entitled to know what is the
13 suggestion that's being made to this witness. At the moment it is wholly
15 JUDGE AGIUS: What is -- the only contestation, that there is
16 first is, that he's speaking of prison and Madam Fauveau is speaking of
17 hospital and not prison.
18 MS. KORNER: I thought we'd cleared this up.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that has been cleared up. And then it's a
20 question of dates, as far as I can see it. But how important, I don't
21 know. I mean, it's -- yes.
22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] What is quite clear is that
23 the witness was in hospital physically. On the other hand, the witness
24 say that is he was a prisoner at the hospital. I'm saying he was not a
25 prisoner. He was not at the prison in Tunjice. He was simply in
1 hospital. I'm going to move on to another subject, but --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest --
3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But for the transcript, I
4 object to what is being done with these documents. I contest the
5 authenticity of these documents.
6 Your Honour, can we have a pause, please.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What do you need the pause for?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Between your questions and answers in the same
9 language. I'm sorry.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the interpretation was as if you were asking
11 me for a pause.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter. I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
14 Do you need these documents, apart from the two we saw yesterday?
15 I suppose there is only one of the other documents that the witness has
16 come up with today that may be relevant, and that's the document that he
17 was given in Banja Luka on the basis of which --
18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The visa.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. These he only got when he was in
20 Croatia. That, I understand has some relevance and the rest -- do you
21 want it.
22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll stick to the document that the witness said
24 is basically a visa that he got while he was still in Banja Luka which
25 enabled him to enter Croatia.
1 I don't know which one it is. I mean, he's the one to indicate it
2 to us.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was certified by the police
4 station in Novska. It says on -- so on it.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Just pick it up -- no, no, the photocopy is what
6 interests us. And the original you can keep.
7 Have you identified the one, Madam Registrar? Shall we mark it
8 DT20, Madam Fauveau?
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's being admitted as DT20. And please let's
11 proceed. You may proceed. Thank you.
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. After you left the hospital, you went to Croatia; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. But I spent three days first of all in Caritas in Banja
16 Q. And when you were in Croatia, you didn't know that proceedings had
17 been instituted against the perpetrator of the crime of which you were a
19 A. That's what I heard.
20 Q. But you would not have returned to Republika Srpska to give testimony in
21 the trial of the perpetrators of the crime of which you were a victim,
22 even if you had been called to; is that correct?
23 A. Well, I didn't want to deliver myself into their hands again.
24 Q. But you were the only survivor of this crime.
25 A. Yes. And I can see that in that document that there were two
1 indicted by the military court in Banja Luka. I'm not mentioned.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The question of Madam Korner implied that you -- of
3 Madam Fauveau implied that you were summoned -- you were called to give
4 evidence in those proceedings. Were you effectively called, summoned to
5 give evidence? Did you ever receive a summons, a call to give evidence?
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That was your question.
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, that wasn't my
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Your question was: "But you can't return to
11 Republika Srpska to give evidence in the trial of the perpetrators of the
12 crime of which you were a victim, although you had been called to; is that
14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. That -- my question
15 would be: [In English] [Previous translation continues] ...
16 MS. KORNER: I was quite surprised by the translation because
17 that's what I understood Madam Fauveau to be saying, "even if you had been
18 called, you wouldn't come back."
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. I wasn't following --
20 MS. KORNER: I saw the translation, so I thoughts I had
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I wasn't following the French this time.
23 So you never received the summons. Because yesterday, actually
24 you were putting the argument that he couldn't have, because there were
25 no --
1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Exactly.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't receive any
4 sort of summons, and I wasn't informed about this, so there's no point to
5 discuss this.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. A few minutes ago you said that even if you had received a
9 summons, you wouldn't have gone to Republika Srpska; is that true?
10 A. As far as I know, it wasn't until 1993 that Republika Srpska was
11 recognised by the International Community. And I had reached Croatia by
12 1992 already. And when I left the prison, the hospital, Mrs. Nada came to
13 me and helped me. She helped get me out, and she told me in these words,
14 "You can't go to Sanski Most."
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So that's the end of the story. Next
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. As the only survivor, you are in fact the key witness of this
19 event; isn't that correct?
20 A. That's why I'm here before this venerable Court.
21 Q. Do you know - and answer only if you do know - whether the
22 prosecutor of the military tribunal summoned you as a witness? If he had
23 summoned you as a witness, this case would never have taken place in
24 Republika Srpska because you wouldn't have gone there.
25 A. I said that I had never been summoned.
1 Q. I'm not going to insist on this question.
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show
3 the witness document Exhibit P811.
4 Q. Is this a record from the investigative judge of the Sanski Most
5 court dated the 3rd of November, 1992?
6 A. This isn't a record. This is a certificate which I submitted --
7 Q. I apologise. I think the exhibit in question is P812.
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 12. It was my fault.
9 Q. Is this a report from the investigating judge of the Sanski Most
10 court dated the 3rd of November, 1992?
11 A. This is a report from the Sanski Most health centre which examined
12 corpses. Dr. Prosic -- Ljiljana Prosic, medical specialist, examined
13 the corpses.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: We saw that document yesterday.
15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. You are right. You are quite right. And this report was
17 addressed to the Sanski Most court, to the investigating judge.
18 A. I don't know that. I wasn't in Sanski Most. I was expelled.
19 Q. Doesn't this document mention the person it was sent to on the
20 first page, at the top and to the left?
21 A. It says "the lower court. Investigating judge." But who received
22 it -- there's no stamp, no signature. There's no number saying where it
23 was received.
24 Q. That's also true. But it's a document which belongs to the
1 A. Yes. But this is from the health centre.
2 Q. And in this report -- in this report the death of nine persons was
3 established; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Some of these persons were killed during the same crime in which
6 you were wounded; is that correct?
7 A. They were all killed, but not when I was wounded. But five of
8 them, at that point in time, and four of them when I was getting out.
9 What's important is the crime took place on the same day.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: You explained that yesterday.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. And for each of these persons, the doctor established the exact
13 cause of death; is that correct?
14 A. I'm going to have a look -- I have to have a look then.
15 That's correct.
16 Q. So the Serbian authorities did establish that this crime took
18 A. According to the document, yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Yesterday you said that the Serbs started treating the Croats
20 different as of 1990, when the elections took place. That was on page 29
21 of the LiveNote. Did you mean to say that the relations between the
22 Croats and Serbs deteriorated from 1990 onwards?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor show
25 the witness the statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor in August
2 Q. Sir, could you have a look at page 2 of this statement. It's also
3 page 2 in the English version. It's a sentence in the middle of the
4 page. You said: [In English] "Relationships between the Serbs and the
5 Croats living in Skrljevita were fine until the war."
6 A. By that I meant up to the parliamentary elections. I can't
7 remember every word. I can't memorise every word in my head. You have to
8 understand what I've been through, what I've suffered.
9 Q. [Interpretation] So for you the elections and the war, there's no
10 difference between the two.
11 A. Elections are one thing. War is another thing.
12 Q. But yesterday you said that the relations deteriorated after the
13 elections. And in your statement, you said that they deteriorated just
14 before the war. Between the war and the elections -- one year and a half
15 passed between the war and the elections.
16 A. That's how it was in my village. People in the neighbouring
17 village behaved like that towards us. They didn't respond to the
18 elections. They didn't go to the polling station in Skrljevita. The 26
19 of them -- the 26 Serbs who lived in the village of Skrljevita. The
20 posters bothered them, the posters of the HDZ. They would pull them down,
21 tear them down. Then they would try to find out where the meetings were
22 being held.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not important for us to know. Forget it.
24 Next question, Madam Fauveau.
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. These Serbs from Skrljevita who didn't come to vote in the polling
2 station that you went to, where did they go to vote?
3 A. I didn't go to control that.
4 Q. Isn't it possible that these 26 Serbs who lived in a Croatian
5 village, isn't it possible that they didn't go to vote because they were
7 A. I don't know whether they were afraid, but what is important is
8 the fact that they didn't want to go and vote. What they did before,
9 until the first multi-party elections took place, they would come to the
10 village -- they did this without any problem before. They would come to
11 the village to collect the post, et cetera, and even children would go to
12 Skrljevita to primary school. There were no problems at all.
13 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the Serbs who apparently returned to the
14 front -- from the front in Croatia. You said that they went to the front
15 in Croatia on a voluntary basis.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Wasn't there demobilisation in 1991 -- a mobilisation in 1991?
18 A. Yes, in 1991 there was a mobilisation. I was in Urosevac, in the
19 army at the time.
20 Q. Why do you say that these Serbs left -- went to Croatia on a
21 voluntary basis?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. One moment. There has been --
23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's mobilisation, Your
24 Honour. [In English] It's mobilisation and not demobilisation.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.
1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But I think it was -- I
2 think it was translated correctly in B/C/S.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.
4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In that case, since there was a mobilisation, why did you say that
6 the Serbs left for Croatia -- went to Croatia on a voluntary basis?
7 A. When the first mobilisation occurred, the legal mobilisation, then
8 the Croats responded to it too. When it stopped -- but they kept their
9 weapons and their uniforms.
10 Q. My question related to the depart for Croatia.
11 A. I answered that question.
12 Q. So they didn't go there on a voluntary basis. They were
14 A. Did I say that there was a demobilisation but that they remained
15 in their uniforms and they kept their uniforms. They kept their weapons.
16 Q. In that case, they were -- they no longer belonged to the army at
17 that point in time.
18 A. Well, what then?
19 Q. If they had been demobilised --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- How can a demobilised person be under the orders of the army?
22 A. So how could it be called an army then.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But this is becoming a cross-debate between
24 the Defence -- counsel and the witness. He has already answered the
25 question. He said that they didn't say there were a demobilisation but
1 that they remained in their uniforms and they kept their uniforms. They
2 kept their weapons. So that's clear enough.
3 And one can argue on the basis of his reply later on, but not in a
4 cross-debate with the witness. So next question.
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, he didn't
6 say that they were demobilised but he said that the mobilisation had been
7 stopped. But in Serbo-Croat he said that they had been demobilised.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: What did you say? Can you explain to us in plain
9 language what you said. Because if this is a question of interpretation,
10 we have to clarify it.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that there was a
12 demobilisation and that the Serbs kept their uniforms and their weapons.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it. He's answered you. And it's the same
14 answer that he has -- he had given you before.
15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But my question --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But why -- why do you want the witness to
17 tell you what that means or what the consequences -- you argue that when
18 you come to the arguments stage.
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And whether -- whether by being demobilised and you
21 retain your uniform and your weapon, you are still a soldier or not a
22 soldier is a submission -- can become a submission, if you want to resort
23 to that submission. But don't expect -- I mean, if he tells me yes or if
24 he tells me no, that's his own subjective opinion, and it's not -- it's
25 not an expert opinion in any case.
1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You spoke about Serbian checkpoints and you said that certain
3 Serbs who were at these checkpoints were in civilian clothing, whereas
4 others were wearing uniforms; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And you said that some men who were wearing uniform belonged to
7 the reserve forces. When you say "the reserve force," are you referring
8 to the Territorial Defence?
9 A. The Territorial Defence; it could be. But it depends on how you
10 define that.
11 Q. Yesterday you spoke about weapons which had been collected in your
12 village and taken to Sanski Most. You said that these weapons were taken
13 to Sanski Most to the Crisis Staff where the headquarters of the Serbian
14 armed forces were located; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. When you spoke about the Serbian armed forces, were you thinking
17 of the SOS forces?
18 A. The Serbian ground forces. SOS is the abbreviation for that.
19 Q. Yesterday you were speaking about -- you spoke about a meeting
20 that took place in Kruhari. Bono, Ilija, and Ivica Tutic had been called
21 to this meeting, and Tomo Delic was present there too.
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. And you said that a soldier attended this meeting; is that
25 A. One officer. That's what Bono said. He was at the meeting. This
1 is what I heard from him, from Bono. I didn't see it myself.
2 Q. So you personally didn't see this soldier.
3 A. I wasn't at the meeting, so I couldn't see him in Kruhari.
4 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
6 Mr. Trbojevic.
7 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Trbojevic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stojic, as a person I am really very sorry
10 for what you went through. I have to say that I admire the courage that
11 you have shown from the moment you were wounded until you were taken care
12 of in hospital.
13 A. Thank you for those kind words at least.
14 Q. I think that is only to be expected from any normal human being.
15 A. That is what I think it should be.
16 Q. I only have a few questions for you.
17 On the first page of the statement you gave to the Prosecution,
18 you said -- you spoke about the fact that in those days you followed
19 political events in the country, that you remember the plebiscite at which
20 the Serb people stated their position.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But that you don't remember too well the contents of the
24 A. Yes, that is right.
25 Q. But that essentially it had to do with whether the Serbs wanted to
1 be a part of a -- some kind of new Yugoslavia with Krajina in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina and/or with the Krajinas in Croatia.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. If I ask you to read Exhibit DB88 --
5 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] And could the usher please be so
6 kind as to give it to the witness.
7 Q. I hope this document will remind you of that plebiscite. You call
8 it a referendum, but in fact those words are synonymous.
9 This is the Official Gazette, the Serbian Official Gazette. And
10 in the top corner, it says "Decision on the adoption of the report," et
11 cetera, et cetera. If you don't mind, will you please read point 2, "It
12 is hereby established."
13 A. It's not very well legible. It's not very legible.
14 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please give the witness
15 my copy, which has been highlighted, so it's easier to read.
16 A. "It is hereby established that the decision for the Serbian
17 people --"
18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Just read it for yourself and to yourself. You
21 don't need to read it aloud. And then we'll see what the question is.
22 When you are ready, tell us please.
23 Yes. Your question.
24 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is it true that it is a decision of the Serbian people in Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina to remain in Yugoslavia?
2 A. This is a decision on a plebiscite on the 9th and 10th of
3 November, due to be held on those days in 1991, and when it was held
4 indeed. And that came into effect -- has come into force.
5 Q. My question is whether it is clear from that text that it is a
6 decision of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina to remain in
8 A. Yes, that is right. That is what it says. But on the ballot
9 paper, the question wasn't like that.
10 Q. The question had to be word by word like that.
11 My next question is: At that plebiscite, was it possible for
12 other citizens, that is, members of other ethnic groups in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina to vote?
14 A. I don't know that. I was in the army at the time.
15 Q. But you said that in the army, they took you to vote.
16 A. Yes, that is right.
17 Q. Do you remember that there were ballot papers in two different
19 A. I don't remember that.
20 Q. Very well. We'll move on to another subject.
21 On page 4 of your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you
22 said that upon your return from the army, you noticed that people of Serb
23 ethnicity were more or less -- were armed. And there's a sentence that I
24 would like to quote. And as for other citizens who received weapons, we
25 know nothing about that." Do you remember saying something like that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does it logically follow from that that there were other citizens
3 who were armed as well?
4 A. I don't know that. I'm not sure.
5 Q. You told us that people of Serb ethnicity organised checkpoints.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did citizens of other ethnic groups organise guards or patrols in
8 their villages?
9 A. Not in my village.
10 Q. But did you hear about other villages?
11 A. I did not hear. I didn't go to other villages to check.
12 Q. Very well. But let us go back to the hospital for a moment,
13 please. I think that it is -- that there is no dispute over the fact that
14 at the time you were in hospital, there was a war going on and that the
15 consequences of the war could be felt in the town of Banja Luka as well.
16 Were there days with no electricity?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When there was no -- there were no medical supplies.
19 A. I don't know that.
20 Q. Do you know that HVO soldiers upon withdrawing from Travnik were
21 put up in that same hospital?
22 A. I did not see them.
23 Q. You couldn't see them because you had left already by then, but
24 you probably had read about it in the press. You didn't hear about it?
25 A. No, I didn't.
1 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination?
3 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, Your Honour.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojic, I want to make sure that you have been
6 returned all the documents that you showed us. Just make sure first that
7 you have --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And this brings us to the end of your
10 testimony here. And on behalf of the Chamber and everyone here, may I
11 thank you for having come here to give evidence.
12 You will be escorted out of this courtroom. And it is now
13 possible for you to return to where you wish to go.
14 Once more, I thank you. And you may now leave the room. Thank
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And thank
17 you for giving me this opportunity to speak about the truth that I
18 personally experienced. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good afternoon to you. And have a safe
20 journey back home.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness.
23 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Does Your Honour want to
24 start the witness before having a break? Or do you want a break now?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
1 MS. KORNER: Sorry. My microphone.
2 I have to tell Your Honour that was supposed to be one of the
3 shorter witnesses.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MS. KORNER: I have to tell Your Honour that was supposed to be a
6 short witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I know.
8 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour like me to start the witness before
9 the break?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I -- we start now, I think because of logistics I'm
11 being advised yes, we start, and we'll break.
12 MS. KORNER: Can I just tell Your Honours two things: Firstly, we
13 were able to provide the translation of the witness statement into B/C/S
14 by the end of yesterday afternoon, so the defendants both have it. And
15 we've had a translation done of the extra notebook, which I think, Your
16 Honours -- the Defence have got it. We can provide it if necessary to
17 Your Honours.
18 Can I emphasise those the translations were not done by authorised
19 translators. So if there's any problem, they will have to go to
20 authorised translators.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hope not.
22 MS. KORNER: And finally, can I just mention in relation to the
23 documents that were shown to the witness relating to the non-prosecution,
24 as it were, of --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Kajtez.
1 MS. KORNER: The perpetrator, Kajtez, all those documents were
2 supplied to us by the Republika Srpska authorities, the Banja Luka
3 military court at a -- at a request. Those documents come from a source,
4 which if the Defence want to suggest is not a source they -- on which we
5 can rely, then ...
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We are not contesting those
7 documents. It is the witness who contested them.
8 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Zulic.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Again, we don't have any protective measures
10 in place here, Ms. Korner. No?
11 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have any protective measures in place
14 MS. KORNER: No, we don't.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon me for asking you, because I just want to
17 make sure because sometimes the situation changes from day to day.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour is quite right.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And before jumping into and mentioning names, I
20 always try to be as cautious as I can.
21 Is there a problem? Do you have a problem?
22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Just a
23 small consultation.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Zulic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: The gentleman standing next to you, who is the court
2 usher, is going to give you a piece of paper on which there is the text of
3 a solemn declaration to say the truth and nothing but the truth, which is
4 required of you under our Rules. So before you start giving evidence,
5 please take that document in your hand and read out that declaration
6 aloud, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: AHMET ZULIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
12 I'll explain very briefly what's going to happen. You're here to
13 give evidence. You've been summoned to give evidence by the Prosecution
14 in this case.
15 The three persons you see up here, we form this Trial Chamber. I
16 am the Presiding Judge. My name is Agius. I come from Malta. To my
17 right is Judge Janu from the Czech Republic; so my right, Judge Taya from
18 Japan. We will be the Chamber that will ultimately decide this -- this
20 To your right is the team -- on the front row is the team for the
21 Prosecution. And today the Prosecution will start with a series of
22 questions which they will put to you.
23 When the Prosecution finishes with all the questions that it
24 requires to put to you, you will then be cross-examined by the two
25 teams -- two Defence teams that we have here. The first Defence team that
1 you see in the front row to your left, the first three persons are the
2 Defence team for the accused Radoslav Brdjanin. At the other end of the
3 front row is the -- is counsel for General Talic.
4 The three persons you see in front of you here are the members of
5 the Registry. And you don't need to bother about the rest. No offence
6 meant. It's not important for you to know who the others are. I mean,
7 they are members of my legal team. You know, so it's not -- they have got
8 nothing as such to do with the running of the case -- of the proceedings
10 Who is going to cross-examine the witness?
11 MS. KORNER: Well, I hope I'm not going to cross-examine my own
12 witness. But I'm calling --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is going to examine?
14 MS. KORNER: I am, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You are.
16 MS. KORNER: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Korner from the -- for the Prosecution
18 will be putting some questions to you. Thank you.
19 I am afraid I don't think we will finish today, which means that
20 you will have to return to The Hague to continue your evidence later on.
21 I suppose this has been explained to him. I suppose this has been
22 explained to you, and I'm sure you understand.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So Ms. Korner, the witness is in your hands.
25 Examined by Ms. Korner:
1 Q. [Microphone not activated] Mr. Zulic, is your name --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. Mr. Zulic, is your name Ahmet Zulic?
5 A. It is.
6 Q. And were you born on the 5th of June, 1947 in Podbrijezje?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Which is in the Sanski Most municipality.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And are you by ethnicity and religion a Muslim, now called
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'd like you first of all, if I may, to look at a map which is
14 7. -- 757.3. And I'm going to ask it to be put on the ELMO.
15 MS. KORNER: I'm going to give the witness my copy, because I've
16 highlighted the village. I think one needs to go on the ELMO. He needs
17 to have it himself.
18 All right. I'm sorry, usher, you're quite right. You take my
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher.
21 MS. KORNER: You take my copy. It's easier to see. And if you
22 just put it on the ELMO and show it to the witness. You'll see it's
23 marked there.
24 Q. All right. Mr. Zulic, could you just look there. And you'll be
25 just -- and just indicate where I have marked just below -- we can see --
1 it's actually -- where we see the town of Sanski Most, can we see the
2 village in which you were born just to the left and marked, and where you
3 lived in fact?
4 A. Could I please approach the map.
5 Q. That's where --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness points at a
7 village -- at a spot on the map which corresponds to the name
9 MS. KORNER: I'm glad that Your Honour has the same difficulty I
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's worse. I'm even worse.
12 MS. KORNER: Some I can do. But ones with "J's" in the middle, I
14 Yes, thank you very much.
15 Q. And just above that -- because we're going to refer to that later,
16 Mr. Zulic -- is there a place called Podlug?
17 A. Yes. I showed it.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness points at the
19 mentioned village on the map immediately on -- above the previous name.
20 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Yes, you can take the map
22 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zulic.
23 Now, Mr. Zulic, before we come to what actually happened to you in
24 1992, can we just deal with various statements and documents. In April of
25 2000, were you seen by an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor?
1 A. Could you repeat the year, please.
2 Q. April of 2000 were you seen by an investigator?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Who spoke to you and recorded what you said. But at that stage
5 you didn't sign a statement.
6 A. I did not.
7 Q. And were you then seen on a second occasion by another
8 investigator? That was in February of 2001.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And at that stage, did you provide to that investigator copies of
11 effectively a diary that you had made after your release from Manjaca?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And later that year, last year in June, did the investigator
14 return and at that stage was a signed statement taken from you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In addition, yesterday did you provide to the Office of the
17 Prosecutor a -- a sort of little notebook on which you had written notes
18 whilst you were in Manjaca?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you came to this Tribunal - I can't remember when it was now;
21 I think on Monday, but - did you have a chance to read through a copy of
22 the statement that you made to the investigator which had been translated
23 into your own language, the Bosnian language?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you then make some minor corrections, I think, to
1 spellings of names and some other words which had -- the translation
2 wasn't altogether correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, can I just ask you, please, about the diary that you wrote
5 after your release from Manjaca. I think it's right -- have you got with
6 you the original, which is a set of three notebooks?
7 A. I didn't bring it just now, but it's at the hotel. I didn't
8 believe it was necessary now.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MS. KORNER: It may not, Your Honour.
11 Q. But you have them available and you can make them available on the
12 next occasion you come here; is that correct?
13 A. If necessary, you can send someone to pick up the key of my room
14 and to bring it.
15 Q. Don't worry, Mr. Zulic.
16 Now, can you just tell the Court when did you actually write the
17 account of the events that are contained in those exercise books.
18 A. After Christmas in 1992 until the 15th or 20th of January, 1993.
19 Q. And what made you decide to write this account of the events that
20 happened to you?
21 A. Just so that it would be never forgotten.
22 Q. Did you write your account of events at anybody else's
24 A. On my own.
25 Q. Did anybody ask you to write down what had happened to you?
1 A. Not to write down, but they did ask me for a statement and I
2 wouldn't give it to them.
3 Q. And who was it who asked you for a statement?
4 A. Mr. Adil Draganovic did.
5 Q. And you said that you wouldn't give a statement to Judge
6 Draganovic. Why was that?
7 A. Because I was afraid. My father and mother remained in Bosnia;
8 also two brothers, their wives and children. And I was afraid of any
9 publication. Because if that were to be learnt, they would certainly be
11 Q. And was this the situation, that you and Judge Draganovic had been
12 released from Manjaca together?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that you were housed in the same barracks in Germany for a
15 period of a month or so before you moved on?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you wrote your account of the events that you describe --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. [Microphone not activated] But I have a sign
19 an order before 4.00 --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: The legal assistants --
22 MS. KORNER: I see. I can just finish this question, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm sorry to interrupt you like that, but I
24 know that the Registry closes at 4.00.
25 MS. KORNER: Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And so I've only got five minutes.
2 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, just one simple question.
3 Q. When you wrote the account of events, Mr. Zulic, in your
4 notebooks, were those events still fresh in your memory?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.
7 We'll have a 30-minute break, and then we'll continue.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.29 p.m.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Questions should be --
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour may have seen, I got a message during
12 the course of cross-examination. I just wish I'd seen it.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I say this is the
14 first --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the first World Cup that I'm missing.
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. Mr. Zulic, just one last question about the diary. Until you
19 provided a copy of it to the investigator, had you shown that diary to
20 anyone else?
21 A. To no one, apart from my family, my son, my wife. They knew about
23 Q. Well, when we have a look at it, we'll see what you wrote on the
24 front cover.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say that I'm going to ask, when we
1 get to the point, that the witness be given the photocopies -- I'm going
2 to ask it be made an exhibit and then if necessary, I'm going to ask him
3 to refresh his memory from what he wrote, nearer the time.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any objections? Okay.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. And sir, I think it -- Mr. Zulic, I think it's right that you were
7 born and raised and have spent most of your life within the municipality
8 of Sanski Most.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Other than when you did your military service.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you work until 1992 for a coal mining firm in a place called
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And were you in fact by may -- in May of 1992 the manager of
17 A. Not the manager, but I was a supervisor -- the director
18 supervisor. I supervised the shifts in the pit.
19 Q. All right. Now, I don't think that you were ever a member of a
20 political party of any kind.
21 A. Never.
22 Q. And took no interest in politics.
23 A. Neither before nor today.
24 Q. However, in -- you were aware, were you not, that in 19 -- after
25 the 1990 elections, the president of the municipal assembly was a man --
1 or became a man named Nedeljko Rasula?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. And I think you knew Rasula because he was your teacher, both in
4 elementary and high school.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, I want to come directly, please, to the events of 1991 -- the
7 end of 1991 and 1992. By the end of 1991, were checkpoints appearing in
8 the municipality of Sanski Most?
9 A. Yes, they were.
10 Q. And I think towards the -- after -- I'm sorry. In the period of
11 1991, every person of all ethnicities were stopped. But did that change
12 in 1992?
13 A. In April, yes, it did, in my opinion.
14 Q. And change was what?
15 A. Well, among those police, there were no longer -- it was the
16 military police, and there were no longer Muslims among them. And if they
17 stopped Serbs, they wouldn't check them; they would just let them go. But
18 they would check the Muslims. They would check their cars. And that
19 happened to me a few times.
20 Q. Now, did you notice that appearing in 1992 were different kinds of
21 military units?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And what kind of units were -- began to appear in the Sanski Most
25 A. There was the JNA, some "White Eagles," Seselj's men, the SOS --
1 that must have been the Serbian armed forces -- and some other
2 paramilitary formations, private military in fact, which I had never seen
3 before. I really haven't.
4 Q. You've described some as the White Eagles, Seselj's men. How did
5 you know these people were called the White Eagles and were Seselj's men?
6 A. Because they would say so publicly. That was said publicly. They
7 had a white band here. I can't remember exactly whether it was on the --
8 on their left or right arm. They had cockades here.
9 Q. And the SOS, did you know who was the leader of the SOS?
10 A. At the time, they said it was Njunja and Medeni. Dusan Saovic,
11 that's the man. And Medeni, I really don't know his real name.
12 Q. Now, do you remember the occasion when the municipal building was
13 attacked in Sanski Most?
14 A. At the moment, I can't remember the date. I have it written down
15 somewhere. But I know it was sometime in May.
16 Q. All right. Don't worry about the date. We've got documents that
17 is show us the date.
18 And do you remember that what was called a War Presidency or
19 Crisis Staff was set up in the municipality?
20 A. The Crisis Staff was formed in April. It had already been formed
22 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to deal with the matter of weapons. Did
23 you, at some stage, in 1992, purchase a weapon?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Roughly when was that?
1 A. I think it was in March. I haven't got the dates in front of me,
2 but it was in 1992 before April.
3 Q. And how did you come -- well, first of all, from whom did you
4 purchase the weapon?
5 A. From a Serbian soldier. I paid for it, purchased it.
6 Q. And what sort of weapon was it?
7 A. It was a light machine-gun with 20 bullets.
8 Q. And what was the reason that you decided to buy a weapon?
9 A. Well, you could see that there was a war. It was necessary to
10 protect one's family.
11 Q. For how long did you keep that weapon?
12 A. Until about May 1992.
13 Q. And what -- and what did you do with it in May of 1992?
14 A. I threw it into a well.
15 Q. And why did you do that?
16 A. Well, you can't do anything with 20 bullets, even if you were to
17 try and protect your family.
18 Q. Was that before or after there had been announcement that all
19 weapons were to be handed in to the authorities?
20 A. That was before.
21 Q. Now, do you recall if announcements over the radio ordering people
22 to hand in their weapons?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And when that announcement was made, did the people who lived in
25 your village surrender their weapons?
1 A. Yes, they did. The ones that they owned privately, the pistols
2 and the hunting rifles, and other weapons that had been obtained.
3 Q. And I should have asked you this earlier. Roughly how big was
4 your village? How many families?
5 A. About 380 houses. That's the number.
6 Q. And how were the weapons handed in? Did somebody collect them for
7 the whole village, or did people hand them in individually?
8 A. No. They came to the village. They said that they would collect
9 it in front of the centre. Dragan Acic came and another two soldiers
10 who collected those weapons, and everything was surrendered.
11 Q. And who was Dragan Acic?
12 A. He's a citizen from Sanski Most. He was wearing a military
13 uniform. He was wearing a JNA uniform. He was a reserve captain, a
14 sergeant or a captain, something like that.
15 Q. And you say that everything was surrendered. So were there any
16 weapons left in your village?
17 A. Well, maybe some were left. I don't know really.
18 Q. Now, before the weapons were handed in, were there any patrols
19 being conducted by the Muslim population in the village?
20 A. Yes, there were.
21 Q. And was the whole village Muslim, or was it ethnically mixed?
22 A. The whole village was Muslim.
23 Q. What was the reason that patrols were being carried out?
24 A. I have to explain that. The people from Podlug, the Serbs,
25 they came, and they said that Muslims would be patrolling independently
1 and the Serbs independently, so as to avoid extremists coming in, being
3 Q. So the village of Podlug, which we looked at the map earlier --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner.
5 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm just wondering if the witness
7 would be more comfortable if he could move his chair a little forward.
8 Because I think that he's leaning forward every time he speaks and I think
9 sometimes he doesn't quite get forward and I don't think he's being heard
10 quite as well as he would otherwise be. Just a helpful suggestion.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If you move further near the microphone, it
12 would be better.
13 Yes, Ms. Korner.
14 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
15 Q. Sir, yes. We were just asking -- the village of Podlug which we
16 looked at, was that a Serb village entirely?
17 A. Yes. There were three Muslim houses in that village.
18 Q. And you say that the villagers from there came to your village and
19 said that there should be separate patrols, Serb patrols for Podlug and
20 Muslim for your village; is that right?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. After you'd had to surrender your weapons - you, the Muslims - did
23 you conduct any further patrols?
24 A. With what and how?
25 Q. Yes, quite. So is the answer no?
1 A. No.
2 Q. What about the Serbs in Podlug? Did they surrender their weapons?
3 A. No, they didn't.
4 Q. And did they continue with the patrols?
5 A. Yes, they did.
6 Q. Now, you told us about -- that you had this job at the mining
7 company. Were you able to keep your job?
8 A. No, I wasn't.
9 Q. What happened to you, in respect of your employment?
10 A. We went to work. And after we had done a shift, we went out. The
11 bus didn't come to get us, and we were told by the people at the door that
12 we had to leave the company. And I would like to emphasise that up until
13 then only Muslims worked there from March up until the middle of April. I
14 have that written down in my diary. Only Muslims worked there, whereas
15 the Serbs had already been deployed, sent off to certain units.
16 Q. So at what stage were you told -- can you remember roughly the
17 date when you were told that you had to leave the company?
18 A. It was in May.
19 Q. Now --
20 A. At the beginning of May.
21 Q. Now, I want to come to the events of late May of 1992. Did you
22 hear announcements on the radio talking about what were called "Green
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And were people named whom you knew?
1 A. The people whom I knew were mentioned -- they were told to come,
2 to surrender to the Serbian people. They were told that they were
3 extremists, because the Green Berets, as they call them, they're all over
4 the place.
5 Q. And --
6 A. They said.
7 Q. And what did you understand was being referred to by the term
8 "Green Berets"?
9 A. Believe me, at the time I didn't -- and even today I don't know if
10 those are those green caps. But at the time I didn't see anything like
12 Q. Green caps. But people wore green caps. But who were these
13 people who wore green caps supposed to be?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You can put a direct question, Ms. Korner. Straight
15 away. Go straight to it.
16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, there may be some dispute about
17 this. But in any event if Your Honour tells me I can, I will.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. Did you understand they were referring to armed Muslim males?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, were you ever aware of any armed Muslim forces in Sanski Most
24 A. No, I wasn't.
25 Q. In your own village?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Or any other Muslim areas in which you travelled?
3 A. At that point in time, no. But later on I heard that that was in
4 Vrhpolje, somewhere up there.
5 Q. And that's -- I'm dealing now with the announcement on the radio.
6 And was that announcement on the 26th of May of 1992 or thereabouts?
7 A. Thereabouts, yes.
8 Q. Now, after that announcement when people were named, was there any
9 outbreak of firing or any kind of warfare?
10 A. Not in my village. In Vrhpolje, I heard that there was fighting.
11 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the area of Sanski Most called
12 Mahala. Were you familiar with that area?
13 A. Yes, I was very familiar with it.
14 Q. Can you tell us what happened to the people who lived in Mahala.
15 A. They were called over the announcement. They were asked to leave
16 their houses. Some of them were asked to go to the village Krkojevci, to
17 the stadium, and others were asked to go to the training ground where
18 there were driving courses so that the Serbian forces could deal with the
19 Green Berets. And they did that.
20 Q. Okay. So this is what was being said. "They were asked to leave
21 their houses, and some of them were asked to go to a village called
22 Krkojevci, to a stadium, others to the training ground."
23 A. To the stadium in the village of Krkojevci and above Muhici to the
24 training ground.
25 Q. And you said "so that the Serbian forces could deal with the Green
1 Berets." Is that what they were saying on the radio?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I'm sorry. Could we -- could you just have a look, again, please
4 at the Map.
5 MS. KORNER: If we can put that on the ELMO, and if we put my
6 marked copy again.
7 Yes. If you could move the map up the screen, please. Yes. Yes,
8 that's it. Fine. Stop. Thank you.
9 Q. Is that the village of Krkojevci, which you're referring to?
10 A. This is the village of Krkojevci.
11 Q. Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record the witness points at the name
13 "Krkojevci" on the map.
14 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
15 Yes, thank you. You can take the map back again. Thank you.
16 Q. Now, having heard this announcement, did the people in the area of
17 Mahala obey it?
18 A. They went out. Some of them went to Krkojevci and the others went
19 to the training ground.
20 Q. How do you know that's what they did?
21 A. Because later on the refugees from Mahala and Muhici went up
22 there, came there, and they told us where they had been, two or three days
24 Q. They came to your village.
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Now, did you see what happened to Mahala?
2 A. After the people had been forced out, I saw that houses had been
3 destroyed. I saw that Mahala was being shelled. I saw smoke. I saw that
4 there were houses burning, that they had been destroyed. We saw that
5 because we were on an elevation.
6 Q. Can we take this in stages. What was the first thing you actually
7 saw happening? We're going to look at a film in a moment, but what was
8 the first thing you saw happening?
9 A. We heard shooting. That's the first thing.
10 Q. And what kind of shooting? Do you mean rifles or other guns?
11 A. Mortars. I think they were mortars. But there was shelling.
12 Q. And once you heard what was happening, did you go and have a
14 A. No one could do that. No one dared do that.
15 Q. No. I'm sorry. I don't mean go into Mahala. But could you see
16 where the firing was coming from?
17 A. It was very clear. It was quite possible to see where the firing
18 came from. From the Djedovaca hill, from the garbage dump, and from the
19 direction of Caplje. But a little below Caplje. It could be seen
20 quite clearly. You could see the shells flying quite clearly. You would
21 hear the sound it made. This was a very loud noise.
22 Q. Now, what was the result that you could see of the shelling?
23 A. I think that some houses started burning immediately.
24 Q. Could you see the mosque from your position?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you see what was happening to the mosque?
2 A. Not at that point in time.
3 Q. Whilst you were watching, did you see any kind of people in Mahala
4 returning fire, any kind of resistance to what was happening?
5 A. There was no resistance. I know that no one fired a shot.
6 Q. Were there people still in Mahala at the time of the shelling?
7 A. Earlier on I said that they were all taken to the training ground
8 and to the stadium in Krkojevci.
9 Q. Yes. I understand that. But did you discover whether or not at
10 the time of the shelling anybody had been left in the village?
11 A. If anyone remained in the village, then that was someone who was
12 immobile, who couldn't move, sick people, or someone who had hidden in
13 that person's house, in the cellar.
14 Q. I think I should -- but do you know whether that happened or not?
15 If you don't know, say so.
16 A. I don't know whether people returned, fired. But I know the
17 people remained in Mahala. Later on they were found and had been killed.
18 These were -- they were mainly women. In my diary it says who these women
19 were. There were three -- three men -- three or four men. In the house
20 of Semir Hegic [phoen], in the cellar two brothers Vojnikovic were killed.
21 Ivo Uzar, Nafira, who worked in the book shop --
22 Q. You needn't bother to list everybody, because, as you say, you've
23 listed the names in your diary.
24 Now, did -- did you yourself go to Mahala after the shelling had
1 A. No.
2 Q. After the shelling had finished, did anybody go into the village?
3 A. Women went back, but only after they had taken them to the school
4 and then separated the men to the sports hall and then they sent the women
5 to us in Podbrijezje, the children to Stari Majdan, and then women three
6 days later went to Mahala.
7 Q. What happened to property that hadn't been damaged by the shelling
8 for one reason or another?
9 A. It was looted and taken away, simply, because the women that went
10 back there to get their clothes to change into or to bring flour or
11 something like that mainly didn't find anything there. I had 18 refugees
12 in my home.
13 Q. And were the houses after they'd been looted, were they left, or
14 did something happen to them?
15 A. No. Afterwards houses were burning every day, two, three, or
16 four. This could be seen. One could see the smoke when the houses went
17 up in flames.
18 Q. Now, did your mother-in-law in fact live in the Mahala area?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what happened to her?
21 A. She was expelled too, and she came to my place. She was first
22 expelled to Krkojevci, the stadium there. And then in front of the
23 Narodni Front School, when they killed my father-in-law. Then she managed
24 to reach my house. My father-in-law at the time was 67 years old.
25 Q. And who was responsible for killing your father-in-law?
1 A. The Serbs.
2 Q. Was he the only one killed, or were others killed?
3 A. I just said a moment ago all the people who had been killed. But
4 he was immobile; he couldn't move. May I correct myself. He wasn't
5 killed. He was burnt in his house. He was bedridden. Sorry.
6 Q. All right. In 1996, after your return to Sanski Most, did you go
7 and film the area of Mahala as it was in 1996?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. We're going to -- I'm going to ask you to look at the film in a
10 moment. But by that stage had some rebuilding already started?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So I'm going to ask that that be played.
13 But I think in addition, have you filmed the view that you had
14 over your village of Mahala, which was filmed when the investigator was
15 with you?
16 A. Yes. Yes. I filmed it to show that I was able to see the burning
17 of houses and the shelling that -- from where I stood.
18 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, we've given the video to the
19 audiovisual unit. It hasn't got an exhibit number yet. So the next one
20 up will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 821. So I wonder if that could be
22 Q. And, sir, if there's anything you want to comment on, if you could
23 just say "stop" loudly, then the film will stop playing.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MS. KORNER: No. I'm sorry. It's the wrong video. It's the
1 other video that the visual -- audiovisual unit was given.
2 [Videotape played]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. Wind back, please, a little.
4 Here you can see a house that before the war --
5 Q. Stop.
6 A. -- was a coffee bar.
7 Q. If you stop for a moment. You can't indicate with the pointer to
8 that screen. If you can just describe -- you say there was a coffee bar
9 where? To the left or the right of the screen as we look at it?
10 A. To the right, as I see it. This was a coffee bar before the war.
11 And to the left was the market.
12 Q. Okay. Can we see anywhere the mosque or what was left of the
14 A. The mosques can't be seen. It was on the left. Behind the market
15 there's a street there. Only this coffee bar was all in marble before the
17 Q. Okay.
18 MS. KORNER: If we could continue playing.
19 [Videotape played]
20 MS. KORNER: If we could just pause the camera there for a
21 moment. It's rather difficult for pausing it.
22 Q. But what are we looking at there on the walls of the house?
23 A. You can see the scars left by shells, the damage left by shells.
24 MS. KORNER: Could we move on.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MS. KORNER:
2 Q. And what are we looking at here?
3 A. It is just here, behind this is the exercise ground that I
4 referred to, the exercise area. And here you can see a part of the Serb
6 MS. KORNER: Now can we pause the film for a moment. Sorry.
7 Q. Now, are we now looking at the view you had of Mahala from where
8 you lived?
9 A. Yes, precisely so. If you go back a little, you can see the
10 mosque very well too.
11 MS. KORNER: Okay. If we could just run the -- run the film back
12 for a moment.
13 [Videotape played]
14 A. This is the newly built mosque that we see.
15 Q. Yeah. It is not very clear on the screen, but we can see the
16 two -- I'm not very sure what the name is?
17 A. Minarets.
18 Q. Okay. And that's the newly built one, is it?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. KORNER: Okay. If we could just move on.
21 Q. And if you could just indicate the hills from where the firing was
22 coming when you see it.
23 [Videotape played]
24 A. You can't see it too well, but you will see a hill over here to --
25 over there called Djedovaca, above the houses here.
1 MS. KORNER: I don't -- Your Honour, I've seen this film before,
2 and it wasn't as bad as this. I'm just wondering whether the colour --
3 whether one can adjust the colour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] But I'm not quite sure.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.
6 MS. KORNER:
7 Q. What are we looking at there?
8 A. Now you can see clearly the Djedovaca hill. I can tell you this
9 peak here to the left is what is known as Smedlista [phoen], and over
10 there is the hill called Djedovaca.
11 Q. All right. Thank you.
12 MS. KORNER: I think -- well, let's just run the film on. I think
13 that's nearly it though. Could we just run the film and see if that's the
15 [Videotape played]
16 A. Over there to the left you can see a hill called Caplje, from
17 where they were also firing.
18 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much. That's it.
19 Q. Now, what were the next things that happened before your arrest?
20 Were any other areas attacked?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Which areas? And if you need your diary to assist you, sir, at
23 this stage, you can have it. Would you prefer to have it, or can you
24 remember without?
25 A. Perhaps I will be more precise if I have the diary as to which
1 village came when.
2 Q. Could I -- could you be hand --
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that the photocopy be
4 made of the exhibit so that he can retain the original.
5 Q. I'm going to ask that you get part 1 of your diary.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll ask they all be exhibited as one
7 single exhibit. But because there are three parts of it, three books, if
8 we could have the first book as Exhibit -- where are we? -- 822.1.
9 And --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that the original is in your possession
11 and readily available --
12 MS. KORNER: It's in the possession of the witness. But he'll
13 bring it back next time he comes to court.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's very important.
15 MS. KORNER: Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because at any time we may need to refer to it.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes, I agree.
18 Q. I'd just like you to be handed also this document, which is a
19 photocopy of the front of the first exercise book.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's the one I handed out yesterday.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Zulic, is that a photocopy of the cover of the first
22 exercise book?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. And can you just read out to us what you wrote there.
25 A. "Just so that our grandchildren do not forget."
1 Q. And I should ask you this, Mr. Zulic, or I should have asked you
2 earlier. When you were writing the diary, did you write down everything
3 in it that happened to you or other people?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And why not?
6 A. First of all, if I were to bring down everything, I was afraid I
7 might poison the people for whom this was written.
8 Q. [Microphone not activated] And --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.
10 Q. And who were you afraid that it might poison? Who were the people
11 that you wrote it for?
12 A. For my grandchildren.
13 Q. Now, if you find the part, sir -- in the first part of your diary
14 where -- is that the first --
15 A. No. I have book 3. That's why I'm looking.
16 Q. Yes. Okay. We'll give you --
17 MS. KORNER: It's that one.
18 Q. Is that the first part of your diary?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. If you find the page -- well, first of all -- I'm sorry. Before
21 we deal with the Sanski Most -- were you able to see the attack that took
22 place on Kozarac?
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. Then perhaps you'd like to find the page in your
25 diary - and I can't help you, I'm afraid - where you dealt with Hrustovo
1 and Vrhpolje.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's page 3 of the translation.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.
4 MS. KORNER: I don't know if any of the Defence could assist with
5 where that passage is in the original to help the witness, so that we
6 can ...
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is page 6.
8 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Thank you,
10 Madam Fauveau.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I'm sorry.
12 Page 7.
13 MS. KORNER:
14 Q. Have you found the passage, sir, where you deal with -- perhaps it
15 would be quicker if I --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I can indicate to him.
17 Sir, you have the diary, the photocopies. And you see that each
18 page has a number, eight digits.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, starting from the first one, you turn six pages
21 and you come to the seventh page, which is 02005348. Go to the bottom of
22 the page, and go up nine lines there from there. The line starts with
23 [B/C/S spoken] Or something like that.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On my page 6, I can't --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Your page 7 you have to go to. That's why I said
1 you start with the first one, you turn six pages, and you come to page 7.
2 And nine lines from the bottom.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. Have you found that, Mr. Zulic?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. I want to deal with this quite quickly. You record there the
7 attack on Hrustovo and Vrhpolje where more than 300 civilians were
8 killed. Were you able to see the attack, or did you hear about it
10 A. I heard of this attack, because a woman came -- I think I noted
11 that down somewhere.
12 Q. Yes, you did.
13 A. A woman came who --
14 Q. Don't --
15 A. -- who said -- she came to the yard of my neighbour Ibro's house,
16 and he said -- and she said that in one garage --
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. -- 18 or 20 people had been killed, that on the bridge about 30
19 adult males had been executed, and that they continued executing in
20 Vrhpolje, Hrustovo.
21 Q. Sir, can I explain. We're going to hear from people who were
22 actually present at these incidents. All I want to establish is how you
23 found out about them. So somebody came and spoke to your neighbour. Were
24 you present when that happened?
25 A. This woman told me who survived, in that garage. No.
1 Q. I understand, sir. Don't worry. We actually are going to be
2 hearing about that.
3 But were you present when the woman who came from that area told
4 your neighbour, or was it your neighbour who told you?
5 A. I was present. I was sitting there. She was sleeping in my
6 house. Anyway, I was captured and taken away, and she stayed behind in my
8 Q. Now, the refugees from Mahala who had been living in your house,
9 what happened to them?
10 A. They tried to be transported to Jajce, the first time. The police
11 went, the Serb police, with a loudspeaker in their hand, saying that all
12 refugees should gather in Podbrijezje near the cultural centre and that
13 they would go to Jajce.
14 Q. And were they in fact taken to Jajce?
15 A. They were taken and brought back again.
16 Q. And what happened -- I want to jump ahead. What happened to them
18 A. When they were brought back, some to Podbrijezje and some to Stari
19 Majdan. After three days, there was another announcement that the
20 refugees should gather and that they would be taken to Velika Kladusa.
21 However, the refugees realised by now that they wanted to expel them,
22 force them out of their houses, so they didn't want to go. However, they
23 organised buses and the army, and the army or soldiers went from one house
24 to the next searching the house, and wherever they found refugees in the
25 house they would force them out. And those who couldn't fit into the
1 buses were chased across the river to Krings Company, and new buses came
2 and they were put on those buses and driven off in the direction of
4 Q. And do you know what happened to these people eventually, where
5 they went to?
6 A. They arrived in Kladusa.
7 Q. And that's as much as you know.
8 A. That's all I know.
9 Q. Now, you've told us that it was Serb -- it was the army or
10 soldiers who came and took these people from their houses, put them onto
11 buses. Who do you mean by "the army"?
12 A. I mean those who had a five-coronet star here.
13 Q. Were they regular soldiers as far as you could tell or irregular?
14 A. As far as I could tell, they were regular soldiers, but
15 reservists. These were not young men but mostly older men. You know,
16 between 35 and 40, something like that.
17 Q. And do you know which unit of the regular army was operating in
18 your area -- in that area?
19 A. The 6th Krajina Brigade. At least that is how they called it.
20 Q. Now, can we just deal, please, with the attacks. And if we just
21 deal with where they happened. Was there an attack on a village called
23 A. Cirkici, yes.
24 Q. And was that an entirely Muslim village again?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And was there then an attack on Skucani Vakuf?
2 A. Skucani Vakuf.
3 Q. And was there then shelling of Trnovo?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, were you able -- Trnovo was in fact a village that was not
6 that far away from you, wasn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you able to see that attack?
9 A. Yes, I was. I could see the shells coming across the hill and
10 falling into Trnovo.
11 Q. And where was the shelling coming from?
12 A. From Djedovaca, from the garbage dump.
13 Q. And anywhere else that you could see?
14 A. Yes. From Podlug, from the stadium there. There was also a Fap
15 lorry, which had been converted, and they had mounted what they called a
16 two-barreled anti-aircraft gun on it.
17 Q. Now, you can leave the diary for a moment, sir, and we'll come
18 back to it if necessary.
19 During these attacks, from what you saw was there any response
20 from the inhabitants of the village, any firing back?
21 A. They had nothing with which to fire back.
22 Q. And why was that?
23 A. Well, as they had surrendered their weapons.
24 Q. Your village, did anything happen to that before your arrest?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And what happened to your village?
2 A. There was shelling. One shell fell in the -- in my father's
3 garden, and the second shell about 300 metres further away in the garden
4 of a neighbour of ours -- of mine. The one that fell in my father's
5 garden didn't explode, and the one that fell further up did explode. And
6 then we were told over the radio that we would be shelled.
7 Q. Was there concentrated shelling on your village - in other words,
8 more than one or two - before your arrest?
9 A. No, there wasn't. No.
10 Q. I'm going to deal with your arrest in a moment, but was there --
11 after your arrest, was there any concentrated shelling on the village, or
12 did it remain?
13 A. I heard that there was concentrated shelling on our village about
14 one month later. This is what I was told by my wife and by my children.
15 Q. All right. I want to now deal with your arrest, please. Did that
16 take place on the 18th of June?
17 A. Yes, it did.
18 Q. And did some police officers -- armed police officers arrive at
19 your home?
20 A. Yes, they did.
21 Q. Were there four of them in all?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you know them all as local Serbs?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And you recorded their names. Was there somebody called Gojko
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And Predrag Maric?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Miroslav Mauna?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the fourth man, I think who was also the driver, was he called
8 Dosenovic? Maybe you'd better say it.
9 A. Dosenovic.
10 Q. Did they tell you that you were going to be taken for
12 A. They told me that I should go and give a statement, and they asked
13 me to give them weapons. They were looking for bomb, for grenades, for a
14 sniper rifle, for a light machine-gun. They were looking for mortars.
15 Q. Did they search your house?
16 A. Not at all.
17 Q. So they told you that you were going to have a give a statement,
18 and they asked you to give them weapons. Did you tell them --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did you tell them?
21 A. I told them that I didn't have any, and I told them I couldn't
22 give them something that I didn't have. I told them that I had thrown
23 something into a well and that they should go and have a look and see that
24 it couldn't be taken out again.
25 Q. Now, having -- well, I'm sorry, having told them that, what was
1 their reaction?
2 A. They started hitting me, and they said, "You're going to come with
3 us and you're going to give a statement."
4 Q. And where did they take you?
5 A. They took me to Betonirka.
6 Q. And what was -- did you know what Betonirka was?
7 A. I knew that it was a company which produced concrete products.
8 Q. Once you got to Betonirka, what happened to your possessions?
9 A. They started provoking my wife. Immediately they started phoning
10 her. And this lasted I don't know for how long. But according to what my
11 wife told me, it occurred almost every evening.
12 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. It's my fault, sir. What happened to your
13 personal property, what you had on you, once you got to the garage -- once
14 you got to the Betonirka?
15 A. Everything was taken from me, money, my watch, my driving licence,
16 my identity card. Everything was taken from me. And some other papers
17 that I had in my wallet.
18 Q. And was that taken from you by the people who had arrested you or
19 by another policeman, or another person?
20 A. Other people.
21 Q. The people who arrested you, you say were policemen. When you got
22 to Betonirka, were the people you were dealing with there policemen?
23 A. I don't know what they were, but they weren't wearing a regular
24 civilian police uniform, as far as I could see.
25 Q. What were they wearing?
1 A. One of them was wearing an officer's uniform, an olive-drab
2 uniform. Some of them were also wearing camouflage uniforms. And one or
3 two of them were wearing those police uniforms.
4 Q. Now, once you'd had your property removed from you, were you taken
5 to what used to be the garages of the factory?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. And were you placed into one of the garages?
8 A. Yes, in garage number 1, as they call it.
9 Q. I'd like you to -- for a moment to be shown a plan with the
10 photographs, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit P757.1.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Now, Ms. Korner, this
12 is --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I pushed the wrong button.
15 Ms. Korner, this document is already exhibited.
16 MS. KORNER: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: For the future, always have available -- when you
18 come forward with documents like the present with, with a map in the
19 middle, flanked on the sides with photos -- one which does not indicate
20 beneath each of the photos what that photo represents.
21 MS. KORNER: You --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We leave it -- we leave it -- I have no qualms with
23 having myself and the Defence with a map with the photos and the
24 indication of what each photo represents. But I would rather prefer that
25 the witness hasn't got any indications, and then he is asked to confirm
1 whether the indication which is on the map is the right one or not. More
2 or less this is to achieve a certain uniformity. And I'm sure you
3 understand me. But I do personally also agree that ideally this is how it
4 should be.
5 Today we can go ahead with the document that we have, and I am
6 pretty sure that what you are going to ask the witness is not going to be
7 that much controversial. But for the future, please let's do it this
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say you don't take me entirely by
10 surprise, having heard what's been happening in other Trial Chambers.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I was pretty sure that I was not going to take
12 you by surprise.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we'll make -- we'll try -- unfortunately
14 these maps were prepared --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know.
16 MS. KORNER: But we'll see what we can do about that.
17 Q. All I'd like you to do, sir, is just could you look --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, put it on the ELMO, please.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. Could you just confirm that that's a photograph taken last year of
21 the garages at Betonirka. But did it look like that in 1992?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: The technicians -- I don't know who is in charge
23 of -- yes. Okay. Exactly. We're -- for the record, we are looking at
24 photo number 1. And I thank the technicians for blowing that up. Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the garages in photograph
1 number 1.
2 MS. KORNER:
3 Q. And which garage were you placed in?
4 A. Garage number 1.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness indicates the last door
6 painted red at the right side of the photo.
7 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much. You can take that away.
8 Q. When you got to your garage, were there already some 30 people
9 inside it?
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going -- can I just say for the
11 record, I'm going to lead -- and if either of the Defence want me to stop
12 leading, then I'll do so.
13 Q. Were there about 30 people in the garage?
14 A. Something like that. About 30.
15 Q. And did that include people whom you recognised?
16 A. Yes, it did.
17 Q. One of whom was the Muslim commander of the -- ex-commander of the
18 police, I suppose by then, Enver Burnic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And were there -- did it also include at least one Croat from the
21 village of Stara Rijeka?
22 A. Yes, Andjelko Skripa.
23 Q. Now, was there sufficient room in the garage for you to sleep?
24 A. Usually not, because the garage was about 5 to 6 metres long and
25 about 3 metres wide.
1 Q. And what about ventilation?
2 A. We didn't have any ventilation. There was a window -- there were
3 30 or 40 of us in the garage, and they put concrete blocks against that
4 window. So they closed it.
5 Q. Now, were you taken to the police building, the SUP, for
6 interrogation on the third day?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. And what were you being asked about?
9 A. The questions they asked were who has weapons, what kind of
10 weapon, why haven't you sold the weapons? But mostly it was who had
11 weapons, what kind of weapons, how many Green Berets are there? The
12 questions were mainly questions about who the extremists were. And at the
13 end he told me, "You'll tell us about all of this and you'll confess.
14 You'll go and dig out the well. You'll go and fish in the well and you'll
15 take your weapon out of it, because the cat [RealTime transcript read in
16 error "camp"] can eat you up in no time."
17 Dusko Zoric questioned me, from Sahovci.
18 Q. I'm sorry. Just pause for a moment what did you say? He said --
19 the man said you'll go and fish in the well and you'll go and take your
20 weapon out of it because what can eat you up in no time?
21 A. The cat would eat me up in no time.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's come up at camp on the screen.
23 That's why I --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's camp on the screen. Now it's cat.
25 MS. KORNER: It's come up as camp again. Exactly. But the
1 witness is saying cat. And he is saying cat before. That's what I heard
2 at least.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. And what did you understand by the expression "the cat can eat you
5 up in no time"?
6 A. I took that to mean that they would kill me.
7 Q. Now, you told us who was asking you the questions. Did you know
8 this man, Mr. Zoric?
9 A. Very well.
10 Q. Was he a policeman?
11 A. He was a lawyer.
12 Q. Did anything happen to you during the questioning?
13 A. Not while he was questioning me, no.
14 Q. Did anything happen to you after the questioning?
15 A. Nothing happened to me in the office. He didn't beat me. I think
16 that he even behaved quite correctly at times. But when I was coming back
17 down the stairs, before that he said, "Kravic, push him down the steps and
18 hit him where you want to, so that he can be hurt wherever."
19 Q. This is what Zoric said?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what did happen once you left the office?
22 A. When I reached the stairs, he pushed me. He hit me with the
23 rifle. And here I have a wound from that blow. If necessary, I can show
25 Q. I don't think that will be necessary. I think we -- the Chamber
1 is prepared to accept that.
2 He pushed -- he hit you with a rifle, and what happened?
3 A. I fell down the stairs.
4 Q. And were you able to get up, or did something further happen?
5 A. I had to stand up very quickly.
6 Q. Now, was that the first time that you had been assaulted?
7 A. No. I'd been beaten earlier on too.
8 Q. And when had that happened?
9 A. Before I went to the questioning.
10 Q. Was -- and who -- who beat you?
11 A. The people on duty who were guarding us.
12 Q. Now, during your imprisonment in Betonirka, how often were you
14 A. Well, I wasn't beaten only on three nights out of the 21 nights I
15 spent in Betonirka.
16 Q. There were only three nights when you weren't beaten.
17 A. Yes. At the time -- it was the shift of a certain policeman
18 called Tolcin. It was his shift, and he opened the door of the garage.
19 We were given water when he was on shift. We were also allowed -- we were
20 even allowed to shave ourselves and to wash ourselves, so we could pour
21 water over ourselves.
22 Q. So on those -- when that policeman was on duty, you weren't
23 beaten. On every other night you were beaten.
24 A. They didn't beat anyone when that policeman was on duty.
25 Q. Right. I'm sorry. I just want you to confirm. Are you saying
1 those are the only three nights when you were not beaten?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was used to beat you?
4 A. Sometimes they would beat with all sorts of things. Sometimes
5 they would bring children in and they would train karate on us. Sometimes
6 they did it for the sake of it. They didn't use all their force.
7 Sometimes they used cables to beat us, they kicked us, they used the
8 table -- feet of tables and they used sort of spades. They would hit us
9 with those sort of things.
10 Q. And did that happen to everyone who was in the -- the garage with
12 A. Only one person wasn't beaten.
13 Q. And who was that?
14 A. Beker.
15 Q. And do you know why he wasn't beaten?
16 A. I really don't know.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to finish. I've just got one
18 further aspect.
19 Q. Later on, in 1998, I think you said, did you and Beker compile a
20 list of the people -- the guards who had beaten you?
21 A. Yes, we did.
22 Q. And can you just have a look, please, and identify a photocopy of
23 that list, which is this document, Your Honour, here. It's just a long
24 list of names.
25 Is that the list that you and Beker prepared?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be made Prosecutor's Exhibit
3 P823. Thank you.
4 Q. And can we see just very quickly, finish this off -- is the list 1
5 to 21, are those the -- the people who were the guards or are they just a
6 list of the people who interrogated you and beat you?
7 A. This is a list of the inspectors here. Here you can see Dusko
9 Q. That's the list that's headed "MUP,", is it?
10 A. In one of these.
11 Q. That's the list that's headed, "MUP," is it?
12 A. Yes, it is. M-U-P, yes. These are the inspectors and these are
13 the guards here to the left.
14 Q. I'm sorry. Of the guards that were listed here, was any one much
15 the worst or were they all much the same?
16 A. Milan Martic was the worst.
17 Q. That's not the Milan Martic who was from Knin. That's a different
18 Milan Martic, is it?
19 A. No. That's a neighbour of ours.
20 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Zulic.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to stop here, Mr. Zulic. We will continue
22 later. And you will be brought back to The Hague to continue your
23 evidence. You will be informed accordingly.
24 We will resume --
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
2 MS. KORNER: I have already made it clear when it was clear he'd
3 have to come back that he can't talk to anyone.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
5 MS. KORNER: -- about the evidence that he's giving.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's very important. What Ms. Korner has just said
7 is binding on you. In other words, you cannot discuss these things with
8 anyone. I have your word as a gentleman.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My word.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We will resume on the 17th in the
11 afternoon. I think it's still in this courtroom. Thank you.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
14 at 5.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
15 the 17th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.