Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6890

1 Monday, 17 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

9 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear

11 me in a language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

13 Yes, I can hear in a language I understand.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

15 Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a language that you can

16 understand?

17 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

18 Honours. Yes, I can hear you and understand you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

20 Appearances for the Prosecution.

21 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Andrew Cayley, Denise Gustin, case

22 manager, for the Prosecution. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Ms. Korner.

24 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman,

Page 6891

1 I'm here with Milan Trbojevic, my co-counsel, and Marela Jevtovic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Appearances for General Talic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. My name is Slobodan

4 Zecevic, and Ms. Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau. We will represent Mr. Talic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you Mr. Zecevic. Welcome to this Tribunal.

6 As you know, we started the Trial in late January. There's quite

7 a bit to catch up with, but I've heard very good references about you and

8 I'm sure that you will give a very valid contribution which we very much

9 look forward to.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We certainly are going to

11 do to the best of our abilities, my dear colleague Ms. Fauveau and

12 myself. However, you do understand that I feel like I am boarding the

13 boat and left the luggage in the port of embarkment. But anyhow, please

14 be assured that we will do our best in representing our client.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I did that once when sailing to Sicily. It was no

16 problem. When I got to Sicily, I got everything from there.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour but this appears to be a around the

18 world trip. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I can also assure you, Mr. Zecevic, that

20 Madam Fauveau has been following this case sedulously from the very -- the

21 word go and that she has done a very good job and she has cooperated fully

22 with this Tribunal. So she should be in a position to put you in the

23 picture without great difficulty.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means, Your Honours. If that wasn't the

25 case, I would have never accepted the appointment.

Page 6892

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So witness, good afternoon to you, sir.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. We will be continuing with your

6 evidence, testimony. And before we do so, the usher will hand to you the

7 copy -- the text of the solemn declaration which I would like you to

8 repeat. Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

14 Ms. Korner.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour knows the difficulties I have today, I

16 think.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Space, first and foremost.

18 MS. KORNER: Well, apart from space. But also I'm in the middle

19 of calling a witness in Judge Schomburg's court. There are a number of

20 administrative matters to deal with but Mr. Cayley is going to deal with

21 them at a later stage. I think it would be worth leaving something like

22 20 minutes at the end of the session to deal with them all.

23 Your Honours, may I just mention this, that with Your Honours'

24 agreement, because of the difficulties, if I may leave the minute I've

25 finished and Mr. Cayley will cover for cross-examination.

Page 6893

1 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Please yourself.

2 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Your Honour, one of the administrative

3 matters would have been that over the intervening week we've had an

4 investigator go to Sanski Most and take photographs amongst other things

5 of the interior of, first of all, the police station cells and then of the

6 garages, Betonirka. Your Honour, the Defence only arrived a few minutes

7 ago, so I don't know whether they've been given copies -- they have, but

8 just now. Unless there is objection, however, I would like to show

9 Mr. Zulic the -- some of the photographs that were taken. And Your

10 Honours, we haven't at the moment got sufficient copies, but I'll put them

11 up on the ELMO and we will have copies tomorrow for Your Honours.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Incidentally,

13 Ms. Korner -- the Prosecution requests 20 minutes' time for some

14 administrative points to be raised. Is there anything that the Defence

15 would like to raise either now or later, any preliminaries? If we could

16 leave them for later towards the end of the sitting -- of the sitting, it

17 will be better, I think.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I think there are some things we want to discuss.

19 But later is fine.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: It is fine with us as well, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So just let me know,

23 Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Zecevic, how much time you require. We have 20 minutes

24 from the -- for the Prosecution and if you require some time, let me

25 know. Another ten minutes.

Page 6894

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, when I said 20 minutes, that was

2 including the Defence.


4 MS. KORNER: It won't take us 20 minutes to deal with the matters.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Korner.

6 With regard to the photos.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we go ahead, Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Zecevic?

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated] Your Honours, I was just

10 looking at if photographs, but I believe there -- we don't have any

11 problem with going on.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: We can go forward, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

16 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

17 Q. Mr. Zulic, welcome back, if that's the right word. Can you just

18 remind us again. When you were taken to the garages and held as a

19 prisoner, which garage were you kept in?

20 A. In garage number 1.

21 Q. All right. I'd like you to have a look, please, at some

22 photographs. And first of all, can you have a look at one that's been

23 marked with the number 0124-9107. And if that could be placed on the ELMO

24 as well.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

Page 6895

1 Q. Do you recognise that, Mr. Zulic?

2 A. I think this is the police station. But something seems to be

3 lacking there.

4 Q. All right. Let's leave that one.

5 MS. KORNER: Can I have that one back.

6 Your Honour will appreciate I never had a chance to show these

7 to -- okay. Could you look -- can I have that one back, please.

8 Q. And could you have a look, please, at 0124-9114.

9 A. Yes. These are the garages.

10 Q. Could you just indicate by using the pointer which you're calling

11 the third garage.

12 A. It's -- doesn't look the same as it used to. But as you enter

13 this way and the entrance is here, so the third garage would be this one,

14 at the end.

15 Q. Right. I'm sorry. Did you say you were held in the third garage

16 or the first garage?

17 A. In the first. In the first.

18 Q. Right.

19 A. Number 1.

20 Q. Okay.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Just to avoid any possible confusion.

22 Mr. Zulic, could you point again, once more, to the garage in which you

23 were kept, which you are now saying was garage number 1.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that it was this one. This

25 was the first garage.

Page 6896


2 Q. So just --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Just for the record, the witness points at the

4 garage which is at the extreme right of the photo, being the first one.

5 MS. KORNER: That's right. Your Honours, I'm going to ask that

6 the photographs all become a joint exhibit number, A, B, C, D, and the

7 like or 1, 2, and 3. So if that could be made Prosecutor's Exhibit 824.1.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you take note of that, Madam Registrar,

9 please. Thank you.


11 Q. Now, I'd like you to have a look please, at a photograph of the

12 inside of garage number 1.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, which bears the number 0124-9113.

14 Your Honour, there's a statement from the investigator showing

15 which the garages are.

16 Q. Mr. Zulic, did the garage look like that when you were kept inside

17 it?

18 A. The door wasn't there, this door.

19 Q. No.

20 A. The one that can be seen here. That wasn't there.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. But otherwise, it was more or less like that.

23 Q. All right.

24 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, could that be made 824.2.

25 Q. Just remind us. How many people were kept in there, Mr. Zulic?

Page 6897

1 A. In one garage there were up to 30 people, 30 men.

2 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm just checking the

3 numbers. I just want to make sure -- right.

4 Q. Then could you have a look, please, at this.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is the same cell. It's 0124-9121,

6 or the same building, in which you can see the window to the left-hand

7 side of it as one looks at it.

8 The witness, Mr. Karabeg, went with the investigator and sat down

9 just to show the -- the space.

10 Q. First of all, is -- was that window like that when you were in it,

11 Mr. Zulic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What was the difference?

14 A. On the window there was a -- a pallet of concrete blocks which was

15 about 10 centimetres away from the frame, so that it didn't look quite

16 like this.

17 Q. When the -- this building had 30 people in it, were you able to

18 sit down in the position that we can see Mr. Karabeg in?

19 A. Most frequently there wasn't enough room.

20 Q. Yes. Thank you.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes, you can take that.

22 Your Honour, could that be made 3 -- 824.3. Thank you.

23 And there's one further photograph. Yes. Thank you very much.

24 And that's 0124-9123.

25 Q. And that's just taken from the outside looking into the same

Page 6898

1 block. Were those corrugated iron doors the same, Mr. Zulic?

2 A. Yes. Yes. Only I apologise. What we were looking at was garage

3 number 3, not number 1.

4 Q. Oh. You're quite right.

5 A. The first picture. So I apologise. I do apologise.

6 Q. Yes. You were in 3. You're quite right. In which case I ought

7 really to -- because the window is the other side.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's my fault. I am sorry.

9 Q. Can I show you 0124-9116. Is that -- was the window that side

10 as you look at it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Right.

13 MS. KORNER: Then Your Honour, I'm sorry, I ought to withdraw the

14 other two -- the one I showed with Mr. Karabeg and the other one. It

15 should be -- so this one will become -- yes. If I withdraw the one that's

16 .3 and make this one .3.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Just substitute.

18 MS. KORNER: Substitute the two.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Have them substituted. And they have not yet been

20 admitted formally as exhibits anyway.

21 MS. KORNER: All right.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's not a problem.

23 MS. KORNER: And I won't bother about the last one -- no. Yes.

24 That's the right one. 113 is right. That is -- oh, no. That's cell

25 number 1. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I do apologise. I'm afraid it's been

Page 6899

1 a bit chaotic. I ought to withdraw all -- 113, the photograph of the

2 inside as well, so that this photograph will become 0124-9116 and that

3 will become Prosecutor's Exhibit 824.2. So just two photographs. Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that too much of a problem?

5 MS. KORNER: We'll sort it out at the break just to make sure that

6 this time we've got it right.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm totally confused, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not the only one, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm going to sort it out. But one -- the two

10 that I'm asking now to be exhibited are the one that has the number

11 0124-9114 and 0124-9116, two photographs only, outside and inside.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: As I understand it, it's the first of this series of

13 photos which we saw there were -- there were the three garages; correct?

14 MS. KORNER: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And then this one.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes. That's right.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: And those are 824.1 and 824.3.

18 MS. KORNER: 2.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: You're changing .3 to 2 now?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exactly. There are only two and not three

21 photos.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Zulic, I now want to go back to what happened to you. You

24 described to us at the end of last week -- the week before, rather, the

25 beatings and what happened inside Betonirka. And I think it's right that

Page 6900

1 you've described in detail virtually on a daily basis what happened to you

2 and the other people who were being held in Betonirka in the diary that

3 you made up, compiled at the end of 1992; is that right?

4 A. 1992/1993.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. That's what I said here.

7 Q. And is it right also that you have a full description of virtually

8 everything that happened on a daily basis?

9 A. I have perhaps 10 per cent because this was what I could remember,

10 what I was able to think over and recollect. I probably didn't write down

11 everything. I may even have made a mistake. But I hope no one will take

12 it against me. And if I did insult anyone or I mentioned a name by

13 mistake. But I mostly wrote down the things that I was able to write down

14 at that moment, things that I remembered, because I'm not accustomed to

15 writing, so I just wanted to take note of what I remembered.

16 Q. All right. And have you got with you today, should anybody want

17 to look at them, the three -- original three exercise books? Yes. Thank

18 you.

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Now, I want to ask you though, about a particular incident that

21 you described in your diary. On the 22nd of June, were you taken out of

22 the garage?

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is page 10 of the statement. And

24 in the diary it's page 6 of the translation.

25 Q. Were you taken out of the garage and taken --

Page 6901

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- in Mercedes car to an area --

3 A. Yes, the vehicle was a Mercedes, owned by Ilham Oric [phoen]

4 before the war. This vehicle was seized and they drove it. And they took

5 me to Kriva Cesta.

6 Q. Now, is that an area which is close to the Partisan cemetery?

7 A. Yes, it is about 700 metres from the Partisan cemetery.

8 Q. I'd like you to take the map, please, of Sanski Most, the --

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we do now have the ones with photographs

10 but with no subtitling. So I'm going to ask that that be shown to the

11 witness. This is a version of P757.1.

12 Q. Can we see the Partisan cemetery marked on that map? Do you have

13 your spectacles with you?

14 A. I apologise for a moment. I'm looking for my glasses. No, that

15 is not it.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. This Partizansko groblje is in Kruhari -- Partisan cemetery in

18 Kruhari.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I don't see Kriva Cesta here.

21 Q. Okay. How far away is Kriva Cesta?

22 A. Kriva Cesta is about 2 kilometres away from Betonirka.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. In the direction of Caplje.

25 Q. All right. Could you have a look, please, at -- if you take that

Page 6902

1 map back and if you have a look, please, at another map. You'll see that

2 Caplje has been marked on it. And if you could just have a look at that

3 and indicate to us where --

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Does this have an exhibit number?

5 MS. KORNER: Yes, it does.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: For the record, I think we ought to indicate what

7 it is.

8 MS. KORNER: Well, we will when I get the map back and I discover

9 what the exhibit number is, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.


12 Q. All right. Looking at that, you'll see that Caplje is marked.

13 Whereabouts is Kriva Cesta, roughly?

14 A. Kriva Cesta is here somewhere.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. About here.

17 Q. And there's a Partisan cemetery there, is there?

18 A. About 700 metres down the road.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. Roughly 700 metres.

21 Q. And is that area --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner. For the record, the witness

23 is pointing to a spot right above the place where Zegar is indicated on

24 the map.

25 MS. KORNER: And just before we take the map away and I give

Page 6903

1 Mr. Ackerman the exhibit number --

2 Q. Is there a sort of river there or a stream of some sort?

3 A. Just below the road, about 5 metres below, there's a stream. The

4 road is above the stream.

5 Q. Right.

6 A. And at a large bend in the road, it passes under -- under it.

7 Q. Okay. All right. If you could let me have the map back. Thank

8 you very much, Mr. Zulic.

9 MS. KORNER: And the exhibit number is 757 -- P757.3.

10 Q. Now, you were taken there. And were you taken there by the same

11 people who had arrested you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you just tell us what their names are again.

14 A. Macura Gojko, Mahunic, but I have to look it up in my notebook.

15 Unfortunately I've forgotten his name.

16 Q. All right. If I put the names to you, perhaps you can agree with

17 them, as you say you've listed in your notebook.

18 Was there somebody called Predrag Maric?

19 A. Peda. Maybe it's been misinterpreted.

20 Q. Okay. Somebody called Macura?

21 A. Macura, Gojko. Gojko is his first name. Mahuna.

22 Q. Mahuna?

23 A. Mahuna, yes.

24 Q. And was --

25 A. He had a scar here on his cheek.

Page 6904

1 Q. And finally was there somebody called Dosenovic?

2 A. Yes, there was. Dosenovic. He's a driver. Peda or Predrag, he

3 was the third policeman.

4 Q. Now, when you got to the area, what happened?

5 A. Something happened before we arrived. There were men there

6 already, the army, soldiers. So that I arrived one but last, actually.

7 Q. The men who were there, the soldiers, what sort of uniform did

8 they have on?

9 A. They wore olive-grey uniforms.

10 Q. And could you tell which unit they belonged to?

11 A. I really am unable to tell which unit they belonged to, whether

12 they were Chetniks or the regular army, regular troops, because they were

13 behind some willow trees, so that we just saw some soldiers. I couldn't

14 see them properly. But I saw a second group of men that were sitting down

15 about 20 metres away from the stream.

16 What was -- what were they sitting? Was there a table, or were

17 they just sitting by the side of the tree -- by the side of the -- near

18 the stream? Sorry.

19 A. There was a table but not next to the stream but about 20 or 20

20 metres away from the stream -- 25 metres.

21 Q. Did you recognise any of those people who were sitting at the

22 table?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Who did you recognise?

25 A. I recognised Nedeljko Rasula. He was sitting in civilian

Page 6905

1 clothes. He had a white coat on, not absolutely white but with some

2 colours on it, with sort of dark -- a dark pattern on a white background.

3 And I recognised Milan Raus, he went to school with me for some 12 years.

4 I recognised Nemanja Tripkovic. I recognised the two Senic brothers.

5 They're both Montenegrins. One used to work with me in the mine and the

6 other was a teacher of art in Sanski Most.

7 Q. Anybody else?

8 A. Yes. But just now I can't remember any more names.

9 Q. All right. Was anybody -- you say that Rasula was wearing a white

10 coat with some colours on it. Can you remember what the others were

11 wearing? Was anybody in uniform?

12 A. Nemanja Tripkovic had a camouflage uniform on. Milan Raus was

13 wearing an olive-grey uniform. But I think it was an officer's uniform,

14 not the ordinary soldier's uniform. The two Senic brothers were also in

15 civilian clothes.

16 Q. All right. Did you make a list of those men that you recognised

17 in your diary?

18 A. Yes. But I'm a million per cent sure about these, but as for

19 others I did my best as far as I could. I didn't want to hurt anyone.

20 But as best I could remember I noted down all the people that I recognised

21 because there were a lot of people among them that used to work with me

22 before the war and that we even visited one another. We were on good

23 terms.

24 Q. Well, perhaps if you can find the part of your diary. It's on our

25 page 8 in the translation -- where you -- you had something -- it started

Page 6906

1 day 4, and then you gave a list of the people that you recognised sitting

2 at this table. And I'm just going to ask you to confirm without reading

3 out all the names that that was the list. It's in the first book of your

4 diary, Mr. Zulic, very close to the end.

5 A. Yes, that's correct, the first book.

6 I've found it.

7 Q. You listed Rasula then Vlado Vrkes. Was he one that you're sure

8 was there?

9 A. Vlado Vrkes, Drago Delic -- yes. He was there. Not his sons.

10 Q. Was Tomo Delic there?

11 A. Yes, he was.

12 Q. And a number of others. And the other only one I want to ask you

13 about, did you also see there someone who you later remembered to be a

14 general of the former JNA, now retired, called Daljevic [phoen]?

15 A. I assumed that it was him. I didn't recognise him. But as far as

16 I could remember -- because in our head office in the autumn of 1991 - I

17 don't know the exact date - but coal was being sold at the time and I sat

18 with him and we talked and I assume that it was him. But I can't claim

19 1.000 per cent, no.

20 Q. All right. But as -- in respect of Rasula, Vrkes, the Delics, and

21 the other people you've mentioned, are you sure that they were there?

22 A. Regarding Rasula, 1.000 per cent. Vrkes and Nemanja, Tomo and

23 Drago Delic, I know those people. And as soon as they start speaking,

24 I can recognise their voices. I don't even have to turn around. Maybe

25 today I wouldn't be able to recognise them at all. But if they were to

Page 6907

1 speak, I would recognise them.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. Nedeljko Rasula was a teacher for eight years, and Nemanja

4 Tripkovic I used to work for him in his home. I know Drago and Tomo Delic

5 very well, because they are from Krkojevci.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. They are stone cutters.

8 Q. That's fine. Now, can you tell us having -- you saw these men

9 there. You saw that there were already people wearing military uniform

10 when you arrived at the spot. Were there other people there as well

11 outside the military?

12 A. Yes. There were men there who did the digging. And when I was

13 taken out, I was given a shovel as well -- a hoe, and I was taken to the

14 stream and told to dig.

15 Q. So you were taken out of the car, given a hoe, and made to dig.

16 How many other people were there who were also having to dig?

17 A. Well, there were approximately 20 to 22 men.

18 Q. Did you recognise any of those men?

19 A. I recognised Ibro Eminic next to me.

20 Q. And anyone else?

21 A. Lolo or Smail Pasic.

22 Q. And was everyone having to dig?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you told what you were digging?

25 A. No, we were not.

Page 6908

1 Q. Who ordered you to dig?

2 A. I personally was ordered by Macura.

3 Q. At that stage, whilst you were digging, what did you believe that

4 you were digging?

5 A. Well, actually I did have an anticipation of what I was digging.

6 Q. And what was that?

7 A. Well, I supposed I was digging a grave for myself.

8 Q. Did you stop digging?

9 A. No. We continued digging but it was very difficult to dig out

10 anything in that stream.

11 Q. And so how did the digging come to an end?

12 A. Well, these men were slaughtered. Their throats were cut. And I

13 was the only one to survive, together with two other men that were brought

14 in from another place [As translated]. Their names were Ceric and Halkic.

15 They were returned, brought back.

16 Q. You say their throats were cut. Who cut --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I recognise Mr. Ackerman. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm told that he said two other men that were

19 brought from Zdena, from not another place, as the transcript says.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zulic, the other two persons that survived

21 together with you, you said something, that they had been brought from

22 some place. Where had they come from?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zdena. I think that it is also in my

24 diary.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Zulic.

Page 6909


2 Q. I -- you said, Mr. Zulic, their throats were cut. Who cut their

3 throats?

4 A. Simo Simetic.

5 Q. Did he cut all -- you said there were about 20 to 22 men and three

6 survived. Did he cut all their throats?

7 A. I think he did. I think he did. But I couldn't look a lot. I

8 had to -- from the place where I was down there. I only heard the

9 screams. I saw Ibro Eminic when his throat was cut. He stabbed a

10 knife right here, on the left side.

11 Q. Were there members of the -- the military people that you saw,

12 were they standing round?

13 A. They stood with their rifles pointed at them. And as soon as

14 somebody got up, they would shoot. One -- we would hear a shot. I know

15 that Ibro was found, Ibro Eminic, on the Sana bank. And there are no

16 traces of others.

17 Q. Just so that we understand, these people were standing there, the

18 military were pointing guns at them, and this man was going around cutting

19 people's throats.

20 A. Most probably it had to be that way, because they were telling

21 him, "Simo, slow down. You're working too fast." Simo was not a mentally

22 healthy person, even before the war.

23 Q. Who was saying, "Simo slow down. You're working too fast"?

24 A. Well, these people from the group were saying that, those people

25 that sat at the table.

Page 6910

1 Q. Did you hear Rasula saying anything?

2 A. I would recognise his voice any time, because when Simo got to

3 me he said, "Simo, leave him alone."

4 Q. Did anybody else from that table that was watching say anything?

5 A. Well, they cursed.

6 Q. Did the men at the table have anything to drink with them?

7 A. They did.

8 Q. Did anybody say anything to Simo while this was happening in

9 respect of drink?

10 A. Yes. They were saying, "Simo, have a drink. You'll work better

11 after that. When one has a drink, one works better after that."

12 Q. The men who were being slaughtered, were they all of Muslim

13 ethnicity?

14 A. I don't know. From what I could hear from Ibro, they -- I don't

15 know. I can't claim that they were all Muslims. I really don't know.

16 Q. Did anybody at the table at that stage while the killing was

17 happening say anything about Muslims? And what was that?

18 A. They were calling us balija, you know, using those kind of terms.

19 Q. I'm afraid the interpreter missed his answer. He did say "yes,"

20 and I heard him, but it doesn't show up on the -- on the screen.

21 What happened -- you say that Rasula said that you should be left

22 alone. What happened to you though?

23 A. Well, when Rasula said that, then Macura said, "We'll send you

24 back. We'll take you back as well." And then he said, "Open your mouth,"

25 and he put a pistol into my mouth. And Mahuna put a pistol to my right

Page 6911

1 side and said, "Shall we change his religion now? Shall we make a cross

2 on him now?" And Macura say, "We need him alive." And they pulled the

3 trigger and I thought I'd been killed. But he pulled the pistol out and

4 knocked out these two teeth. Then they kicked me into my back, and I was

5 about to fall into the stream and then they took me back to the police

6 station -- or rather, to Betonirka.

7 Q. I just want to make sure we all understand. One man had the

8 pistol to your head, and one man had a pistol in your mouth. Who pulled

9 the trigger? Which man? The one with the pistol to your head?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did it fire?

12 A. It did. And I thought at that moment that I was dead. However,

13 when I came to, after that fear, I realised that nothing had happened to

14 me.

15 Q. The one who had the pistol in your mouth, you say that he knocked

16 two -- two of your front teeth out. What -- as he pulled the pistol out?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you say you were then taken back to Betonirka. Did --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Other than Rasula saying that you shouldn't be killed, what was

21 the attitude of Rasula and his companions to this killing?

22 A. I think that -- I can't describe their attitude there, but I

23 believe that they were laughing, as I could see.

24 Q. One final matter on this incident. You say that after the

25 throat-cutting, people were shot. Were that people who tried to get away

Page 6912

1 or who hadn't been killed instantly?

2 A. Based on what I could see with Ibro, those that didn't die

3 instantly, on the spot.

4 Q. As far as you could see, did anybody try and run away?

5 A. I don't know. I couldn't see that. And I don't think that they

6 were able to run away.

7 Q. So you were only able to see the person closest to you, were you?

8 A. Yes, the person closest to me, because they didn't let us turn to

9 the side. So what I was able to see I saw from Cesta, from the road. And

10 we were not allowed to turn to the side. And Ibro stood, well, less than

11 50 centimetres away from me, not more than that.

12 Q. I think you drew for the investigator a plan. I'd like you to

13 have a look, please, at that. It was attached to the statement. I

14 haven't got a copy of it there. I can't find mine.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there's -- the original B/C/S version

16 which the witness drew and also an English version, which we handed in. I

17 think there's one on -- if Your Honours have found it. It's marked with

18 his initials -- it's got the ERN number 02061819 on it. And we may want

19 to put it up on the ELMO. We could put the English on the ELMO, please.

20 Q. All right. You've indicated there -- perhaps we could just have a

21 look at the top of it. At the top right-hand side, where we see next to

22 "Partisan cemetery", is that -- you're pointing at the car, are you? I

23 mean, you've drawn the car plus the four men.

24 A. I have three men here, and this -- down here are soldiers. I drew

25 where the soldiers stood, several soldiers.

Page 6913

1 Q. All right. Could you use the pointer and just point at the ELMO.

2 That's the car.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Soldiers.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. And then where you've marked it with an "X" are those the people

7 who were shot -- who were killed? Sorry.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the table is where you've marked it, is it? That Rasula and

10 people were sitting at.

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. That's my fault. Is what you're pointing at

13 now where you say the table was?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what --

16 A. And the path down was right here.

17 Q. Okay. Can you tell us, please, where you've got from -- you've

18 got an arrow pointing towards the table with two little circles there.

19 What's that meant to indicate?

20 A. These two circles indicate where -- the place where the remains of

21 Partisan used to be, from the Second World War. So these were Partisan

22 graves.

23 Q. All right. And so -- but where you've written "Rasula" and

24 "Davidovic," they're just two of the people who were at the table; is

25 that right? It's not that they're -- you're indicating that they were

Page 6914

1 closer --

2 A. Well, this is how I drew this.

3 Q. I understand that. But are you -- are you saying that Rasula and

4 Davidovic were actually at the table? They weren't as close as where

5 you've written their names.

6 A. No, no.

7 Q. No.

8 A. They were at the table.

9 Q. Yes. Thank you. And down there you've written the names of

10 three -- the three men who brought you there; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that be made Prosecutor's Exhibit

13 825, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

15 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

16 Q. Davidovic, do you know what he did?

17 A. I know that before the war he was a police commander and he was a

18 member of the presidency of the municipality and he had a rank of reserve

19 captain, and I know that he was head of a unit. I think it was called --

20 of the 6th Krajina unit -- Brigade.

21 Q. Yes. So you survived, and you were taken back to Betonirka.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I think you told us that only one body out of the other people

24 that were killed has been recovered.

25 A. Yes. So far only one body has been recovered, as far as I know.

Page 6915

1 Q. Now, I want to ask you, then next, about your transfer to

2 Manjaca. On the 7th of July were you taken to Manjaca?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. And did you describe that incident in your diary?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Using your diary if necessary to help you remember, can you tell

7 us what happened during that trip to Manjaca.

8 A. Before they boarded us, they beat us first. All of us were taken

9 out two by two to the room in the administrative building, and we were

10 taken then there two by two. And since that place had a total of three

11 rooms, this is where they took us two by two. Then they took us back and

12 boarded on a truck. It was a -- a regular truck with a passenger cabin in

13 front.

14 Q. Now, you say they took you two by two to the administrative

15 building. Was that in the police station?

16 A. No. It was right behind Betonirka, about 15 metres from

17 Betonirka. This is where they normally took us to beat us.

18 Q. Well, it may be that it will help to -- maybe not. No. All

19 right. I'm not sure we've got a photograph of that.

20 What was the weather like that day?

21 A. It was extremely hot that day.

22 Q. Now, you were placed onto this -- they boarded you onto a truck.

23 How many people got into that truck?

24 A. Well, I didn't know the exact number until we were told that there

25 were 64 of us, because we didn't know how many people were in garage

Page 6916

1 number 2 and 3 and we had no possibility of seeing the other people. The

2 only way of communication in the garage was knocking on the wall.

3 Q. So they said that there were 64 of you. How many people on that

4 truck did you know?

5 A. Out of those people, I knew more than half. I knew more than half

6 of them. However, I didn't know that they were there. Because, for

7 example, when we went out to lunch, only the people out of garage number 1

8 would go. And then after we had our lunch very quickly, we would go back

9 to the garage and then they would take people out of garage number 2. So

10 it was very difficult to communicate and to know who were the other

11 people.

12 Q. I understand that. But once you were on the truck, did you

13 realise that you knew more than half.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did that include Enver Burnic?

16 A. Burnic, Enver. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. And what about someone called Haso Osmancevic? Was he on the

18 truck as well?

19 A. No. He was taken to the police station on that day that morning.

20 He was with me in the garage number 1.

21 Q. Now, you told us that they beat you at the administration building

22 before you were put on the truck. When you were put on the truck, did

23 they beat you?

24 A. No. Once they boarded us onto the truck, they pulled the canvas

25 tarpaulin and locked the truck. I don't know how to explain. They simply

Page 6917

1 locked it. They pulled the ropes that held the canvas tarpaulin so it

2 wouldn't flutter in the back. So they simply pulled it together and

3 locked us in and they did that before as well.

4 Q. And the people who put you onto the truck, were they policemen or

5 military or civilians?

6 A. Brane Sobot was the only one who wore civilian clothes. And the

7 rest of them were policemen.

8 Q. Okay. Once you were all on the truck and the tarpaulin had been

9 secured, did the truck set off?

10 A. Yes, it set off.

11 Q. Did it go on its journey to Manjaca without stopping, or did it

12 stop?

13 A. It stopped twice; once for a very brief time, and the second time

14 it seemed like an eternity because we had no more water.

15 Q. Had they given you water when you set off?

16 A. No. But some people managed to grab some water or were given

17 water from the guards, and then they managed to take it with them. That

18 was all we had. For instance, if we got water yesterday, then that was

19 what was left for us to drink and for treatment of wounds. These were

20 2-litre jerrycans roughly, something like that.

21 Q. And the jerrycans were at Betonirka, not on the truck. Is that

22 what you're saying?

23 A. Who managed -- as they were boarding us onto the truck with

24 batons, they were forcing us to climb on. And if somebody managed to take

25 a jerrycan with him, they did. But as far as I know, only three such

Page 6918

1 jerrycans of water were taken onto the truck. So that would be roughly

2 about 6 litres of water.

3 Q. All right. I was going to ask how big that was.

4 So you ran out of water. Did anybody try and get hold of water by

5 attracting the attention of the guards?

6 A. Yes. No. He didn't try to get water but air. But a woman wanted

7 to give us some water. I don't know who that woman was, because we were

8 crying out of the truck and asking for water, and then the guards were

9 cursing and shooting and telling her not to give us water. Who that woman

10 was, I don't know.

11 Q. So was she allowed to give you water?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What was the atmosphere like on the truck? How much air was there

14 by this stage?

15 A. How much air there was? It's hard to describe. I know that it

16 was lacking, because the sun was burning through the tarpaulin, so that we

17 were short of air. And I learnt when we reached the Vrhpolje Bridge -

18 there was a checkpoint there - and we heard a conversation. The truck

19 stopped for a while, and there was a conversation between the policemen

20 and the people at the checkpoint at the Vrhpolje Bridge, and they were

21 cursing and saying, "Give us those balijas. Where are you taking them

22 through, Vrhpolje?" And it is from that that I knew that we were at

23 Vrhpolje. And by then already on my lap a boy had died.

24 Q. Do you know the name of the boy?

25 A. I do, but just now I can't remember. If I may try and collect

Page 6919

1 myself for a moment.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, one moment.

3 Mr. Zulic, if you need a break, you can have a break. Do you --

4 would you like us to stop now for some time?

5 Yes. The sitting is suspended for 30 minutes, resuming 30 minutes

6 from now. Is -- am I causing you trouble, Ms. Korner? Because I realise

7 that I am causing you a problem.

8 MS. KORNER: No. I appreciate with the -- would it possible to

9 say 20 minutes, Your Honour?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any difficulties? 20 minutes. Okay.

11 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we need a break.

13 MS. KORNER: No. I fully appreciate that.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

17 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


20 Q. Mr. Zulic, I know this is distressing for you, but if we can just

21 finish what happened on the truck. You've told us about the boy that died

22 on your lap. Did other people die during the course of that journey that

23 you realised had died?

24 A. We saw people dying. A couple of times his head would nod. He

25 would foam at the mouth and then he would die. The worst death that we

Page 6920

1 witnessed -- there were two brothers, Nedzad and Rane Muhic.

2 Q. Why was -- I'm sorry to ask you, but why was that the worst?

3 A. They hugged each other, and they cried out, "Don't let me die,

4 brother. It's too early for me to die. We won't die."

5 Q. Do you know how old they were roughly?

6 A. Roughly 30 to 35, 36 maybe.

7 Q. All right. Now, did you or anyone else in the truck drink

8 anything other than water to try and quench your thirst?

9 A. I had on me a small bottle of shaving lotion called Brioni

10 [phoen]. I drank that first, and they told me not to drink that because

11 it wouldn't help. After that, when I sort of came to again, I urinated

12 into the bottle and then I drank it.

13 Q. When you arrived at Manjaca, who took you out of the truck?

14 A. Somebody removed the canvas and said, "Balija, come out, you

15 motherfuckers. What are you waiting for?" But I apologise. First they

16 started calling out names, and then they started saying, "Come out, you

17 balijas. What are you waiting for?" So I got the order wrong for a

18 moment.

19 Q. That's all right. The men who had died, how were they taken out

20 of the truck?

21 A. They didn't take them out of the truck. They carried out six men

22 who were neither alive nor dead.

23 Q. What, who were unconscious?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who carried the men out? Was it the men who had escorted you

Page 6921

1 to Manjaca, or was it men who were at the camp? Did you recognise them?

2 A. These people from the truck who were still able to walk, they did

3 it.

4 Q. When you got out of the truck -- outside the truck, did you

5 recognise any of the guards who were there?

6 A. Just at that moment when I got off, no. But later on I recognised

7 them.

8 Q. And who was present that you recognised?

9 A. Brane Sobot.

10 Q. The men who had taken you -- arrested you and taken you to the

11 river, Dosenovic, Mahunic, Macura, were they there?

12 A. Yes, they escorted the convoy. They were in Betonirka and they

13 escorted the convoy. They boarded us at Betonirka into the trucks and

14 they escorted the convoy.

15 Q. Now, you say that the unconscious men were taken out of the

16 truck. They were six. Were you the only person -- were you one of the

17 people carried out, or were you able to get out on your own?

18 A. I got out with the help of Enver Burnic and Bekir.

19 Q. And? I'm sorry. I didn't catch the last person.

20 A. Enver Burnic and Bekir Delic.

21 Q. All right. What happened then to the men who had died?

22 A. They called Dr. Sabanovic first, a detainee, and he examined those

23 who were half dead and he said they couldn't be saved without proper

24 medical care. And just then - I didn't know who it was - but an officer

25 said that all the shit should be boarded onto the bus so that they

Page 6922

1 didn't -- wouldn't stink and that they should be taken back to Sana. He

2 didn't want any dead people in the camp.

3 Q. Did you find out later who that officer was who said that the shit

4 should be boarded onto the bus?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And who was that?

7 A. Lieutenant Colonel Bozidar Popovic or Pavlovic. But I think it

8 was Popovic. He had an accent, a Montenegrin accent.

9 Q. And was he -- did you later discover he was the person who was in

10 charge of Manjaca?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What about the men who were unconscious and Mr. Burnic? What

13 happened to him -- or what happened to them, first of all, the unconscious

14 men?

15 A. Mr. Burnic was not unconscious. He was taken back. So was

16 Biscevic and Mauzner and another young man whom I really don't know.

17 They were taken back in good health. They were asked to load these

18 unconscious men and then to unload them.

19 Q. Load -- sorry. Load them where and unload them from where?

20 A. It was said -- this lieutenant colonel said that they should be

21 loaded and Brane Sobot said Bekir was chosen to go together with Biscevic,

22 Mauzner, and another man I didn't know. But -- let them load them onto

23 the vehicle and let them unload them at Sana.

24 Q. All right. So was this the situation, that the dead men and the

25 unconscious men were both taken away? Both -- all of them were taken

Page 6923

1 away?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How many men from that truck entered Manjaca that evening? There

4 was yourself and how many others?

5 A. Betonirka -- according to what I know, there were about 30 of us

6 who got on, or 36 -- I'm sorry, 36 or 38 of us. I learnt that later,

7 actually; not at the time, but I learnt it later.

8 Q. Mr. Zulic, I'm sorry. It's my fault. I meant to ask you this:

9 After the dead men and the unconscious men were separated out, how many of

10 you actually physically went into the camp from that truck?

11 A. We were not alone from Betonirka. There were people from the

12 sports hall who had been brought there at that time. So I don't know what

13 you mean. Just from Betonirka or from the sports hall as well, in total?

14 Q. No. What I mean is from that truck -- and you said there was

15 something like 64 men on it -- how many survived and were physically able

16 to go into Manjaca camp and become a prisoner in Manjaca camp?

17 A. I've already said that between 36 and 38 men that I could remember

18 afterwards -- it was established later, actually, with precision that only

19 about half, 34 men, entered Manjaca, when we counted. This is according

20 to my calculations.

21 Q. All right. You say that Dr. Sabanovic came and --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Excuse me, Your Honours. But the part of the

24 translation didn't get into the -- into the transcript. If this can be

25 clarified by my learned colleague, because the witness has said that only

Page 6924

1 34 or -- 34 people from Betonirka came into Manjaca, and it appears that

2 the other -- the other prisoners were taken from somewhere else. That is

3 why I think it's irrelevant. Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clarify this, Mr. Zulic. How many -- on the

5 truck, how many were from Betonirka?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the truck? That entered the

7 camp, 34 people --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Dead or alive.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 34 people from Betonirka.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And from the other --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 64. 64.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: In all.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: 64 in all from Betonirka and from the other place.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Only from Betonirka there were

16 64 men. From other places, from the sports hall, there were about 700 to

17 800 men.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. But -- on the day -- we are interested only

19 on the same -- what happened on the day when you arrived in Manjaca. You

20 arrived in a particular truck. How many persons were carried on that

21 truck? How many?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that on the truck

23 there were 64. But there wasn't just one truck. That's what I was

24 saying. I mentioned the people from the sports hall.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But on that truck on which you were --

Page 6925

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 64.


3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Betonirka.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And they were all from Betonirka? In your truck,

5 were you all from Betonirka?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And out of those 64, how many were then admitted to

8 Manjaca?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to my calculations, 34.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that clear?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's my opinion.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think it was that unclear. I

13 thought there was a complaint about the translation. I think we've just

14 gone round the houses now. I think he's made it quite clear there were 64

15 people on the truck, 34 entered Manjaca.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: What wasn't clear was whether they were all from

17 Betonirka or whether they were also from the sports -- that was quite

18 unclear even in my mind.

19 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, I --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But now it's clear enough. I mean, we can proceed.

21 MS. KORNER: All right. Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Zulic, Dr. Sabanovic, the doctor you said who was called, had

23 you met him before? Did you know him before you arrived at Manjaca?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, I want to ask you quite briefly about Manjaca, Mr. Zulic,

Page 6926

1 because again I think in your diary you wrote a fairly full, even if not

2 everything that happened, description of what happened in the camp. Is

3 that right?

4 A. More or less, yes, though many things have been left out. But I

5 haven't -- I didn't memorise everything when I was writing it.

6 Q. No. I understand that. But everybody has the diary and so we can

7 look at it. I just want, as it were, to deal with certain topics, themes

8 of what life in Manjaca was like.

9 First of all, can you tell us which stable you were put into.

10 A. We were first taken to stable number 6, and three days later we

11 were transferred to stable number 5.

12 Q. And when you got to the stable, what happened if you had to use

13 the toilet?

14 A. First ten men had to line up, form a line, and then all of them

15 had to go to the toilet, whether they needed to or not, whether only one

16 or two wanted to go. You couldn't go where you wanted; for instance, you

17 were not allowed to trample on Serb grass.

18 Q. Did anything happen to the property belonging to the people who

19 were going to the toilet in groups of ten?

20 A. Yes. If they were to see a good pair of tennis shoes, Puma

21 tennis shoes or a leather jacket, this would be taken away and another

22 pair of shoes would be given to him, regardless of the size. Or if they

23 take off the jacket, they would give them a soldier's shirt to wear.

24 Q. Did any of the prisoners have personal property left, watches or

25 jewellery, anything like that?

Page 6927

1 A. Yes. There were people who came from Betonirka with us that

2 day -- no, I'm sorry, from the sports hall.

3 Q. And they had -- they still had personal possessions left, did

4 they?

5 A. Yes. They had all their documents on them because they were

6 detained in the sports hall in Sanski Most.

7 Q. What happened to their property, things like watches,

8 identification papers, and the like?

9 A. They would enter the stable and order us to turn around and face

10 the wall. And then we had to put our hands on our backs - that was the

11 command - heads down, and if they would see a good watch on someone's

12 hand, they would simply take it. And they started some sort of medical

13 examination, and there was a Dr. Meho Derviskadic and a Serbian nurse,

14 male nurse or doctor - I don't know what he was - he was sitting at a

15 table, and he would write things down, and we had to strip for the

16 examination and two policemen would search through personal belongings,

17 seize valuables, and separate documents to one side and the objects found

18 on the detainees on another, like watches, rings, chains, money.

19 Q. The policemen, by this stage was it policemen from Sanski Most or

20 military policemen?

21 A. No. These were military policemen.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. And policemen from Sanski Most guarded the compound. They were

24 wearing proper police uniforms.

25 Q. When you say "guarded the compound," what do you mean by "the

Page 6928

1 compound"?

2 A. They went behind the fence of the camp. They were behind the camp

3 fence, because the camp had a wire fence and minefields. Barbed wire

4 fence and mines were planted.

5 Q. All right. Now, can I ask you next about, please, facilities.

6 During the time you spent in Manjaca, which was until November of 1992,

7 what were the arrangements about water?

8 A. The situation with water was very hard. We would get roughly 200

9 decilitres of water a day.

10 Q. Was there any water to wash or to -- wash yourself or wash

11 clothes?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever during your period in Manjaca, were you ever able to

14 have a shower?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What happened about shaving?

17 A. Shaving was done by the detainees, but razors were missing, were

18 in short supply so each detainee's turn would come once in eight or ten

19 days.

20 Q. Food. At the beginning period in July, how much food were you

21 getting?

22 A. In the morning, when they were distributing food usually a loaf of

23 800 grammes would be cut up into 22 pieces and then each piece would be

24 cut in half so that they would obtain 44 pieces out of that one loaf. And

25 then for lunch, we would get the twenty-second part of an 800 gramme loaf,

Page 6929

1 exactly.

2 Q. Did you get any dinner, anything in the evening?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Was there a change after you were registered by the Red Cross?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After the Red Cross came in, was there adequate food and water?

7 A. After the 30th of August, yes. But again we didn't get water. We

8 had to go and fetch water. When the Red Cross came, they brought us

9 5-litre cans, jerrycans. And if we went to fetch water for ourselves,

10 then when we go to the lake, they would first order us to urinate and

11 after that to fill the cans with water. I have to tell you once -- I have

12 to tell you that on one occasion, I was glad because we were given orders

13 to take that water to the command. They separated us into a line of ten

14 men to take the water to the command.

15 Q. So -- just so we understand, you were urinating into the water,

16 which you then had to use for drinking water.

17 A. Exactly.

18 Q. Just while we're dealing with the Red Cross, I wonder if you can

19 have a look at a photocopy, please, of your Red Cross card. You've got

20 the original there. But if we can just have a look at that.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that was one of the documents that was

22 handed in at the later stage, that he brought with him.

23 Q. Mr. Zulic, is that a photocopy of your Red Cross card?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember when you were registered?

Page 6930

1 A. Well, I don't know exactly when. I believe it was the 17th of

2 July. But right now I can't tell you exactly. I think it is written down

3 in my diary.

4 Q. All right. You may be right, but we'll leave that.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you. Your Honour, may that be made

6 Prosecutor's Exhibit P826.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to make sure, is it the document which has 5/3

8 at the top-right corner?

9 MS. KORNER: Yes, it is.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


12 Q. As a matter of interest, that 5/3, Mr. Zulic -- you've got your

13 original card there, I think. Who put that on?

14 A. This was written by our commander, Muhamed Boskovic. He was in

15 charge of facilitating talks between the command and the inmates.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. And he also had to keep a record, a book of where the inmates were

18 recorded. So this number means stable number 5, row number 3.

19 Q. Thank you. And on the back, are there some dates written?

20 I think you need to have it back again.

21 If you look at the second page of the photocopy, which is the back

22 of the card, there seem to be some dates. Do you know what those are?

23 A. Yes. Yes, I do know.

24 Q. What's the first date?

25 A. This first date is the date when we were supposed to be released.

Page 6931

1 I wrote that down because I didn't believe that we would be released on

2 that day. And then it was moved to this other day. But as it turned out,

3 we were released earlier. It turned out that I wasn't right.

4 Q. All right. So those were the dates you expected to be released.

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you, you can take that now.

7 Q. Jumping ahead. As a result of the food and the like -- how much

8 did you -- well, first of all, how much did you weigh roughly when you

9 entered Manjaca?

10 A. 90 kilogrammes or thereabout.

11 Q. And how much did you weigh when you left, got to Karlovac?

12 A. 55.

13 Q. Now, can I move to the question of interrogations. Were you and

14 your fellow prisoners interrogated?

15 A. I was not, but others were.

16 Q. When they returned, others in your stable from interrogation, what

17 sort of condition were they in?

18 A. Usually they were all beaten up. They had bruises on their backs,

19 heads, legs, arms.

20 Q. Whilst you were in Manjaca, were you yourself beaten?

21 A. To tell you the truth, I was, but it wasn't as bad as they beat

22 others. Once they beat me for saying that -- saying to the Red Cross that

23 they could examine me. I allowed the Red Cross to examine me. And the

24 other time they beat me because I walked on the grass -- I ate the grass.

25 Q. They beat you because you ate the grass?

Page 6932

1 A. Yes. They said, "Fuck you, balija, you're eating Serb grass --

2 you're grazing Serb grass."

3 Q. And --

4 A. And then they hit me with their hands like this. They slapped

5 me.

6 Q. I'm sorry. It will sound like a silly question to you, Mr. Zulic,

7 but why were you trying to eat grass -- or eating grass?

8 A. Well, what else could I eat?

9 Q. And you say that the other time you were beaten, it was because

10 you allowed the Red Cross to examine you.

11 A. The first time they beat me because of the Red Cross, and the

12 second time because I ate grass.

13 Q. Do you mean because the Red Cross carried out a medical

14 examination of you, you were beaten up?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You say that you were not as badly beaten as some people. Did you

17 witness other people being beaten?

18 A. No. But I heard that other people would be taken out and beaten.

19 Those people were Omer Filipovic, Esad Bender, from Trnava, Besic or --

20 or the other one. They told the Red Cross that it was all civilians that

21 were imprisoned in Manjaca. And because of that statement, these two were

22 unfortunately killed. We learned in the morning that they had been

23 killed, whereas Besic managed to escape from the canal and today he lives

24 in Trnava.

25 Q. I should have asked you this: When you were examined by the Red

Page 6933

1 Cross, did they find you had any injuries?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what injuries did you have?

4 A. My back was blue and black; my finger was broken, this one here --

5 this area here; and on my chest cage was all bruised; and I was the only

6 one that agreed to be examined.

7 Q. You told us about Omer Filipovic and Esad Bender. They were

8 beaten because apparently they -- and died because they were -- spoke to

9 the Red Cross. Did beatings take place on other occasions? Not maybe to

10 you, but to other people that you knew.

11 A. I'm sorry, but both of those people died. Esad Bender and Omer

12 Filipovic, both of them.

13 Q. Yes. I understand that, Mr. Zulic. But I want to talk about or

14 ask you about other beatings. Were other people beaten? Not in

15 connection to visits with the Red Cross but for other reasons?

16 A. Yes. Yes, they were. Other people were beaten too. When they

17 searched -- when they conducted a search, they found on Safet Mujagic a

18 candle that he bought from Betonirka -- I'm sorry, not from Betonirka,

19 from the hall. And they beat him wondering why did he need a candle. On

20 Heder they found a needle, a sewing needle, and they beat him. So this is

21 something that I witnessed myself. Whatever they found on people,

22 whatever objects that could be used to cut was used as a pretext for

23 beating.

24 Q. And how were the beatings carried out? With instruments or with

25 just hands or kicks or what?

Page 6934

1 A. They beat them with cables, with chair legs, whatever they had on

2 them. And if they had nothing on them, they would use their hands,

3 because all of these men were very well developed and large -- or at

4 least, that's how it seemed to me out of fear.

5 Q. When you were beaten, because you'd been examined by the Red

6 Cross, what was used to beat you?

7 A. I was beaten by hands.

8 Q. Now, the beatings, were they carried out entirely by the guards or

9 by others as well?

10 A. These were not guards. The guards were outside of the camp.

11 These were military policemen who - how shall I put it? - who were in

12 charge of order in the camp.

13 Q. Do you know whether Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was ever present

14 when these beatings were carried out?

15 A. As far as I know, I don't know about it.

16 Q. Were you forced to work whilst you were at the camp?

17 A. I was not forced. I was beaten. But other people did go to

18 work. They built a church; they dug out water canal; they had to clear

19 some plants and some bushes; they had to go and load something in the

20 forest -- wood.

21 Q. Do you know apart from that -- I'm sorry. Forget that. Did

22 anybody that you recognised from the -- from either Sanski Most or Banja

23 Luka, from politicians there, visit the camp whilst you were there?

24 A. I remember that in our stable a delegation came to visit and

25 Andjelko Grahovac talked to us. He told us, "You people from Sanski

Page 6935

1 Most will go home once Sanski Most is liberated from the Green Berets.

2 The food will improve. There will be more food."

3 Q. Was he alone, or did somebody come with him?

4 A. There were other people there whom I don't know, so I can't tell

5 you who was there.

6 Q. All right. Now, I want you to look, please, at a short film clip

7 which I think you've seen, because you've got yourself, of Manjaca in

8 August of 1992. And I then want you just to stop -- if you shout "stop,"

9 the audiovisual should hear it -- when we come to a point where you want

10 to make a comment?

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is yet again the Ashdown visit.

12 And it's P468. Yes. If we could start the video -- can somebody -- is

13 it on -- can somebody put it on in front of the witness, please - sorry -

14 before we start.

15 All right. Yes. If we could run the film.

16 And then, Mr. Zulic, just shout "stop," if there's a point that

17 you want to mention something.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MS. KORNER: The sound seems to have gone. It doesn't matter.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. Right now you can see this

21 container, jerrycan on the screen, and a man distributing water. This is

22 how the water was distributed. So this rucksack, this backpack, was used

23 for this row of people that you can see. Actually, there are two rows, to

24 the left and to the right. So two inmates were charged with distributing

25 water to everybody so that everybody would get about half a cup of water.

Page 6936

1 Q. Thank you. Can we run the film on, please.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.

4 Here on my right side you can see me.


6 Q. All right. Can you -- yes, I think you will have to --

7 A. In the white shirt, T-shirt.

8 Q. Is that on the right-hand side roughly one -- about half a dozen

9 men in?

10 A. Well, something like that.

11 Q. Slightly --

12 A. Sixth or seventh person.

13 Q. Yes. Slightly leaning forward.

14 A. Yes. Yes. Because I couldn't sit properly, so I had to lean.

15 Q. All right. And can I just ask. Was this when you were inside the

16 stable, did you all have to sit like that all the time?

17 A. Yes. Yes. Somewhere until the end of August. And we had to bend

18 our heads as well. But this occasion here was different because the

19 television crew was there. So we were allowed to look to the side as

20 well.

21 Q. So normally you had to look down, did you?

22 A. Yes. This is how we had to look, down.

23 Q. And while we're on that subject, if you had to speak to a guard

24 did you have to adopt a particular position?

25 A. Yes. We had to bend our heads down and keep our hands on our

Page 6937

1 bags. Actually, we weren't allowed to go out and talk to the guard at

2 all. But if the guard called you or if you looked to the side, to the

3 right or to the left, just a little bit, then the guard would call you and

4 ask you why you did so.

5 Q. All right.

6 MS. KORNER: Okay. Could we just finish the clip, then. If you'd

7 like to run on.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MS. KORNER: Yes. Can we stop that. Thank you. Thank you very

10 much.

11 Q. Now, do you remember the visit by this --

12 MS. KORNER: We can stop the film completely. Thank you.

13 Q. Do you remember the visit by this politician?

14 A. Yes. Mr. Bernard Kouchner, yes, I remember.

15 Q. All right. You remember the visit from Mr. Kouchner, do you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Before any international people visited the camp, was there any

18 sort of cleaning or tidying or any difference made in what the camp looked

19 like?

20 A. Yes. We had to clean the floor because that had to be prepared

21 for the visit. We had to clean and straighten everything out. And if

22 somebody had extra clothes, the clothes had to be put away so that they

23 wouldn't be found hanging somewhere.

24 Q. Now, finally, Mr. Zulic, you were released, as you've told us, on

25 the 23rd of November. As a result of what happened to you, both in

Page 6938

1 Betonirka and later in Manjaca, have you suffered any permanent injuries

2 or disabilities or anything like that?

3 A. Yes. Disabilities -- yes. I don't know to what a percentage this

4 disability is, but this finger here is broken and I can't use it; however,

5 I have to live with it.

6 Q. You told us that when you were examined by the Red Cross, they

7 said you had injuries to your chest and the like. Did you ever receive

8 treatment for your ribs or anything of that nature, any other injuries,

9 whilst you were in the camp?

10 A. I wasn't treated, but Dr. Meho Derviskadic, the doctor, brought me

11 in secret some medication and he said if somebody saw me doing -- if

12 somebody saw me bringing this, they would kill me. And this was vials for

13 injections, for shots.

14 Q. Did you -- do you still have residual effects of the injuries that

15 were caused to your chest?

16 A. Yes. Yes. I still have -- have to live with consequences. I

17 can't walk about a lot. And if before the weather changes, it is very

18 difficult for me to walk and to move around.

19 Q. And in respect of your teeth, which you told us about, that were

20 knocked out by the pistol, in fact did you have to have replacement teeth?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Zulic.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Do you need --

24 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

Page 6939

1 MS. KORNER: Mr. Cayley will be here if any cross-examination --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you certainly can. Thank you.

3 Now, Mr. Zulic, I have to explain to you something very briefly.

4 The Prosecution has finished with its series of questions that it had

5 prepared for you; however, you now need, according to our Rules of

6 Procedure, to be questioned, examined, by the Defence teams. That's a

7 right of cross-examination, that each and every accused person here has.

8 I don't know who is going to go first.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You are going first to be cross-examined by

11 the Defence team for General Talic. And Madam Fauveau will be conducting

12 the cross-examination. Thank you.

13 Madam Fauveau, please.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you spoke about checkpoints that were

16 established at the end of 1991. Could you please be more specific and

17 tell us who manned those checkpoints at the end of 1991.

18 A. The military police was at those checkpoints, a mixed military

19 police. There were Serbs and Muslims and Croats.

20 Q. Do you know which unit those military policemen -- mixed military

21 policemen belonged to?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Until when was the military police mixed ethnically?

24 A. Until about the end of March, beginning of April.

25 Q. Do you know which unit the Serb military police belonged to that

Page 6940

1 remained after that?

2 A. I don't know that, but I think they belonged to the 6th Krajina

3 Brigade. I think so.

4 Q. How did you know that they were military policemen?

5 A. I know because in those days, it was only the military police that

6 wore camouflage uniforms and white belts.

7 Q. Did you know the people who were at those checkpoints?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell us their names.

10 A. I can. Hajrulah Lokic, then Mile Tucak from Podlug, as far as I

11 know. But of course I didn't know all of them.

12 Q. Were these men at the checkpoints also before March 1992?

13 A. Yes. They were the men who were there before March 1992.

14 Q. And did they stay on after March 1992?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you know the people who were at the checkpoint after March

17 1992?

18 A. I know some of them but not many, because there were many

19 checkpoints.

20 Q. Could you tell us the names of the people you knew?

21 A. There were two brothers from Todorovica Sokak, Zeljko and -- I

22 know the other brother too, but they were probably as close to the

23 checkpoint -- but just now I can't remember the name. So if I may, when I

24 remember I'll tell you the name of the other brother. Both of them used

25 to work with me at the mine.

Page 6941

1 Q. And these people that you just mentioned, were they at the

2 checkpoints also before March?

3 A. Yes, they were before March. Tucak and Lokic did not stay on,

4 but these ones did.

5 Q. Did you know whether these people belonged to the 6th Brigade?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. So you cannot assert, regarding the others either, that they

8 belonged to the 6th Brigade. That is right, isn't it?

9 A. I can't, because I didn't ask them who they belonged to and they

10 didn't tell me either.

11 Q. You spoke about Muslim patrols that were organised in your

12 village. Until when did those patrols exist?

13 A. Those patrols existed -- first of all, they were not so well

14 organised. But until about the 25th of 26th of May.

15 Q. On the 7th of June, page 6854 of the French transcript you spoke about the

16 attack on the municipality building in Sanski Most, and you said that this was in

17 May 1992. Can you confirm that statement?

18 A. The attack on the municipality building -- will you please repeat

19 the question for me.

20 Q. You said that the attack on the municipality building in Sanski

21 Most took place in May 1992. Do you confirm that statement?

22 A. I am saying that I don't remember the exact date, whether it was

23 the end of April, the beginning of May when the municipality building was

24 attacked.

25 Q. In your written statement of 2001 you spoke about the attack on

Page 6942

1 the police station in Sanski Most.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to

3 show the witness his statement from 2001 in Serbo-Croatian.

4 Q. In that statement - it is on page 5 of the English version, the

5 second paragraph if we look from the bottom of the page, and in the

6 Serbo-Croat version it's the third from the top - you said that the Muslim

7 police station in Sanski Most was attacked on the 14th of May, 1992.

8 A. Here on the 27th of May, 1992 the regular army and the reservists

9 gathered the population of Mahala in the soccer field --

10 Q. Sir, I'm talking about the 14th of May, page 5, third paragraph

11 from the top.

12 A. Oh, excuse me. This is correct that that is what I said to the

13 investigator.

14 Q. Can you confirm today that on the 14th of May, 1992 there was an

15 attack against the Muslim police station?

16 A. Then and now I am claiming that. That is what I told the

17 investigator, that I cannot remember exactly five to ten days accuracy

18 because I didn't have those books on me that I have now, which means that

19 I can be wrong by a certain number of days. Whether it was the 14th of

20 May or maybe the 24th of May, I really don't know, so I can't confirm

21 that.

22 Q. Why, then, in that case didn't you say that you don't know the

23 date?

24 A. I told the investigator that I think it was like that. I said at

25 the end of the interview that all the dates listed may not be absolutely

Page 6943

1 accurate. One, two, or five days -- I may be wrong ten years later.

2 Q. Yes. But why didn't you say that you don't know the date?

3 A. At the end I said that it's not that I don't know but I simply

4 cannot assert with certainty -- if I had this diary on me, then I would

5 know exactly.

6 Q. So what is written in this statement does not correspond to what

7 you said; is that what you're saying?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm going to stop you, Madam Fauveau, because he has

9 already answered that question. He has said already that this is what he

10 told the investigator, but what he told the investigator may not be

11 accurate as regards the date I itself. So he's answered that question.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. On 7 June, page 6877 of the French transcript, you spoke of an attack on the

14 village of Cirkici. Could you tell us when that attack took place?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, can I -- may I ask you to repeat the

16 name of the village, please.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Cirkici village. The

18 village -- spoke about that on the 7th of June, on page 68 to 77 [As

19 interpreted].

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says the 2nd of June, as far as I

22 can remember.

23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. When you say that it was the 2nd of June, according to your

25 recollection or is it according to your notebook?

Page 6944

1 A. On the basis of my notes.

2 Q. And during that attack on Cirkici, where were you?

3 A. I was at home.

4 Q. You were in your own house, in your own village; is that right?

5 A. Yes, correct.

6 Q. What is the distance between your village and the village of

7 Cirkici?

8 A. 10 kilometres, 10 to 12 kilometres.

9 Q. How could you see what was happening at Cirkici?

10 A. I didn't see anything. I didn't say I saw anything. I didn't

11 write that down. But refugees arrived, that's one thing. And secondly,

12 Radio Sana makes an announcement saying that Green Berets had appeared in

13 Cirkici, and that was for us a sign that the village had been attacked.

14 Q. But you personally could not see what was happening at Cirkici

15 could you?

16 A. No. No. I told you I didn't write that down either. When the

17 refugees came, they said that the village had been burnt. Unfortunately

18 after the war, what the refugees had told us proved to be true.

19 Q. So you personally didn't know whether there were any Green Berets

20 at Cirkici?

21 A. No, I don't know.

22 Q. You also spoke about an attack on Skuceni Vakuf. It is on the

23 same page, 6877 of the transcript of the 7th of June. Yes. Did you see

24 that attack?

25 A. I did not.

Page 6945

1 Q. So you don't know exactly what happened at Skuceni Vakuf?

2 A. No, I don't know but whey heard from refugees. I didn't write

3 down what had happened. The refugees said, "The village is burning and we

4 are fleeing." "What happened?" And they said, "They attacked."

5 Q. But you didn't know whether there were any fighting at Skuceni

6 Vakuf.

7 A. I don't know whether there was any combat. But as there were no

8 wounded Serb soldiers, it was clear that there was no battle.

9 Q. How did you know that there were no wounded Serb soldiers?

10 A. Because they would have reported it on the radio, so many Serb

11 soldiers wounded. All I had to do was to listen to the radio and to know

12 what was happening, and I had to listen to the radio.

13 Q. But this radio also spoke about the Green Berets, didn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So that information too could have been correct.

16 A. No, it could never be correct. Where would the Green Berets

17 appear from in 20 households?

18 Q. Why, in that case, did you believe that information regarding no

19 Serb soldiers being wounded?

20 A. Because even if a single soldier had been wounded, they would have

21 announced it on Radio Sana. When Vrhpolje was attacked and when there

22 was fighting, they immediately reported how many soldiers had been killed

23 and they immediately reported that they would take their revenge;

24 therefore, that was a sign and logic told you that you should believe the

25 refugees that were coming from there.

Page 6946

1 Q. In any event, you also believed in the reports you heard on the

2 radio. That's true, isn't it?

3 A. The accuracy of the radio reports? I believe them, but I always

4 turned them upside down, that is, the opposite.

5 Q. During the hearing on the 7th of June, page 6861, you said that

6 the inhabitants of Mahala were asked to leave their houses; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So it was the Serb who demanded the inhabitants of Mahala to leave

10 their houses?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So the Serbs didn't wish the inhabitants of Mahala to be wounded

13 or killed during combat; is that correct?

14 A. Which combat?

15 Q. The fighting in Mahala.

16 A. In Mahala, as far as I know, there was no fighting. No one put up

17 any resistance to the Serbs in Mahala, as far as I know. But I have to

18 quote something now and tell you on the basis of the Serb Radio Sanski

19 Most. As far as I can remember, actually, Miso, a reporter, was

20 covering the fighting in Mahala as if it was a football match. "The Serb

21 forces are attacking," he said. And then he says, "And the Green Berets

22 are responding." There's no logic there. How can a reporter be

23 standing -- unfortunately I had that tape, but it's been destroyed.

24 Your Honours, you would be able to see what it was about, because

25 it was a radio -- a tape from the radio.

Page 6947

1 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient for you to stop for a

4 break, just let me -- preferably within the next five minutes. Whenever

5 it's -- just please yourself, suit yourself, and tell me.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you wish, we can have

7 the break now, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a break of 20 minutes, resuming at

9 quarter to 6.00. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Sir, we spoke about Mahala, about a journalist from the Serb radio

15 who reported about what was going on in Mahala. And at that point you

16 said that the journalist could not have seen, could not have been there.

17 Where were you yourself while these events were taking place in Mahala?

18 A. I was in Podbrijezje listening to the radio.

19 Q. Therefore you personally didn't see what was going on in Mahala?

20 A. I didn't see.

21 Q. You told us that some people who were handicapped, could not move,

22 remained in Mahala and were killed. Why did these people remain in

23 Mahala? If you know, can you tell us?

24 A. I know. They remained there because they were handicapped and

25 they didn't have enough time to leave Mahala. It was reported at 9.00 or

Page 6948

1 around 9.00 -- or rather, I apologise -- it was reported, I think, at 4.00

2 that -- it was announced that all civilians had to leave Sabica canyon --

3 to come out from Muhici and Mahala to the range and go to the stadium.

4 Q. So therefore the members of the family of those handicapped people

5 in fact deserted them, left them in the house.

6 A. No. They didn't leave them. My father-in-law was not left by my

7 mother-in-law. She went out to take the neighbour from the house next

8 door to her own house; however, a shell fell on the house and set it on

9 fire.

10 Q. So your father-in-law was killed during the shelling; is that

11 right?

12 A. He was not killed. He was set on fire. He burnt in the house.

13 Q. But a shell fell on the house; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Nobody came with the intention to set the house on fire; is that

16 right?

17 A. That day -- or rather, that night -- no, the house was not set on

18 fire. Nobody set out to do that.

19 Q. You told us, still on the 7th June, page 6877,

20 that the refugees were in your village; is that right?

21 A. Yes. Q. You said then that the army forced them out. Is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's right. First they were sent to Jajce on the 1st of

23 June, yes, 1st of June. That's right. They were deported to Jajce. So

24 first they were called to come out on the radio, and then they boarded

25 them into buses and sent to Jajce. And then later on a part -- one group

Page 6949

1 of refugees was sent to Majdan and the other one was left in Podbrijezje.

2 And the second time when they announced this on the radio, the refugees

3 refused to leave because they knew that there would be a problem.

4 However, the army came, they blocked the village of Podbrijezje and

5 brought in the buses from Kamengrad and they went door to door and

6 collected refugees. That day was Bajram, the greatest Muslim holiday.

7 Q. Can you tell us what date it was. Do you know the date?

8 A. 14th of June, 1992. It was Bajram. You can verify this. And

9 you'll see that it was Bajram, Hajji Bajram [phoen]. This is the day when

10 sheep are slaughtered and the meat is distributed and the refugees could

11 not celebrate it on that day.

12 Q. You told us that members of that army had a star; is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Was that a red star?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You also told us that it was the regular army. Can you tell us

17 what regular army -- which regular army had a star as their insignia on

18 the 14th of June, 1992?

19 A. The JNA.

20 Q. Isn't it true that on the 14th of June the JNA was not present in

21 Bosnia any more?

22 A. I don't know that. I don't know that the JNA was not present in

23 Bosnia. However, I know that in Manjaca on July 7th I saw trucks with the

24 JNA insignia. And if it wasn't the JNA army then how come these trucks

25 had JNA signs on them in Manjaca on the 7th of July?

Page 6950

1 Q. According to you, how long did the JNA stay in Bosnia?

2 A. I don't know that.

3 Q. Do you know that in May 1992 a regular army of the Republika

4 Srpska was created?

5 A. I don't know that.

6 Q. So therefore you don't know that the regular Serb army did not

7 have a red star on its uniform after that.

8 A. I don't know that. You just told me that the army of Republika

9 Srpska was created. Are you asking me something else now?

10 Q. But you know that the Army of Republika Srpska did not have a red

11 star.

12 A. I don't know that. While I was free, there were people wearing

13 cockades. We called them Seselj's people. The White Eagles. They had a

14 white ribbon. And then there were also members of 6th Krajina Brigade and

15 then there were also some private troops, as they called them, and the

16 SOS. And what the SOS is, I don't know.

17 Q. And were you able to determine every time -- each time to which of

18 these armies a soldier belonged?

19 A. No, I wasn't to determine that each time. We knew to whom these

20 people with cockades belonged. The members of the SOS wore white

21 ribbons -- not white ribbons but camouflage ribbons around their head.

22 They also had rifles. Medeni had one of them; Tripkovic did as well. I

23 saw them.

24 Q. Can you please describe for us the uniforms worn by the SOS

25 members.

Page 6951

1 A. Those were camouflage uniforms. The three people that I just

2 mentioned to you drove around in a red Lada car.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I

4 continue or not, because I think that the Prosecutor wanted 20 minutes at

5 the end of the session today and then the Defence needs a few more

6 minutes. So I don't know, shall we continue cross-examining or should we

7 now switch is return to administrative issues?

8 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honours, I don't think I'm going to take 20

9 minutes, to be honest with you. I mean, Mr. Ackerman may have some

10 points. I think I may take about five minutes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Madam Fauveau. I will tell you when to

12 stop.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You told us just now that the members of the SOS had camouflage

15 uniforms; is that right?

16 A. These three people that I saw. That's right. I didn't see all of

17 them.

18 Q. Can you please take a look at your statement from 2001. On page

19 3 -- I don't know if you still have the statement in front of you.

20 A. I don't.

21 Q. Page 3, both in the English and B/C/S version, in the last

22 paragraph. You spoke about members of various units, and you stated that

23 members of the SOS wore olive-grey uniforms. These uniforms that you

24 mentioned in this statement of yours, they were not camouflage uniforms;

25 is that right?

Page 6952

1 A. That's right. That's what it says here. However, I know that

2 these three men wore camouflage uniforms. Njunja, Medeni, and Tripkovic,

3 those three. Whereas the rest, they probably had these other olive-grey

4 uniforms. These in fact were uniforms that were confiscated from the

5 Muslims, from those that were in the Territorial Defence before the war.

6 Q. Therefore, some members of the SOS had camouflage uniforms and the

7 others had olive-grey uniforms; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At the hearing on June 7th, transcript page 6883 in French, you

10 said -- you described one of the rooms in Betonirka in which you were

11 imprisoned.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you stated that the room was not aired sufficiently because

14 one of the windows that existed there was blocked, it was -- there was

15 some kind of a concrete block blocking it. You confirm that today; is

16 that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you please look at page 9 of your statement given in 2001. In

19 the English version, that's in paragraph 3 from the bottom of the page.

20 And in the Serbo-Croatian version, it's the first paragraph on page 9.

21 You said -- you said in this paragraph: [In English] "I heard people

22 being beaten because the windows were open, and I could hear screams,

23 moaning, and cries."

24 A. I think that I repeated today that a pallet of concrete blocks was

25 placed on the window. I hope it was translated well. I didn't say it was

Page 6953

1 a concrete block but a pallet of concrete blocks. I don't know if you

2 know what it is. It is something that is put against the window some 20

3 to 30 centimetres from the window so that we couldn't go out through the

4 window. I think that that's what I said today.

5 Q. So therefore you remain by the statement given previously that

6 the windows were open.

7 A. No. There were no windows. But there was a pallet of concrete

8 blocks against the window so that -- so there was no air coming in, and

9 this is what I'm claiming.

10 Q. And why, then, did you state in 2001 to the Prosecution that the

11 windows were open?

12 A. That's not true that I said that they were open. I don't know.

13 Maybe there was a problem with translation, because I didn't read this

14 first statement. Perhaps it was a translating error. This is what I

15 stand by. There were no window frames. There was just a pallet of

16 concrete blocks stacked, a pile stacked, and they were brought there with

17 a forklift to this concrete garage. And you know very well how the sound

18 is carried in the night.

19 Q. So what you stated back then in your statement, what is contained

20 here in your statement does not correspond entirely to what you stated.

21 A. Well, now you told me that this was a concrete block, slab. I

22 don't know exactly how to respond to that.

23 Q. Sir, in that statement that is before you, it says that the

24 windows were open. This is what it says on page 9, paragraph 1, second

25 line.

Page 6954

1 A. There was no window. They were practically open. There were no

2 window frames. There were just concrete slabs in that place. So that

3 means that they were not -- there was some space left.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: No more questions on this particular topic,

5 Madam Fauveau, please, because I think the witness has explained himself

6 already well enough what he meant and how he may have been mistranslated.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Sir, when you came to The Hague, were you given an opportunity to

9 read your statement again?

10 A. Not this one but the other one, yes. There apparently are some

11 technical errors in it, which I corrected.

12 Q. So you haven't seen this statement.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were arrested by four persons, all of whom were policemen; is

15 that right?

16 A. One was a driver. He was not wearing a uniform, and the others

17 were.

18 Q. At Betonirka the guards were also policemen; is that right?

19 A. No, they weren't. Not all of them.

20 Q. Do you know who were the guards at Betonirka?

21 A. Yes, I do know.

22 Q. Do you know to which unit they belonged?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 Q. But you are confident about those four who arrested you that they

25 were policemen.

Page 6955

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient for you, we can stop.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient for you, we can stop. But

5 if you still have a few questions on this particular topic, you can

6 finish.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I would

8 like now to go to another topic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Zulic, we need to stop here today. We

10 will continue tomorrow and I would suppose -- can I anticipate that we

11 will finish with this witness tomorrow?

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sure that I will finish

13 tomorrow. But it is rather difficult for me to determine the amount of

14 time that I will need.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So --

16 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] We will ask the witness a few

17 questions, but briefly. Some 15 minutes or so.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So hopefully tomorrow will be your last day

19 here. You need to come again tomorrow at 2.15 and we will take it up from

20 there. I thank you, Mr. Zulic, and you are now going to be escorted out

21 of the courtroom. Thank you.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Cayley.

24 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. The first matter is we are

25 now in possession of what we believe to be Mr. Rasula's diary, the

Page 6956

1 original version of it. And I have a immediate suggestion to solve the

2 problems that we are having with that document: That the Defence inspect

3 it under our supervision -- we also have, I think -- I might not be

4 correct on this -- but I think well over 100 documents -- originally

5 documents apparently signed by Mr. Rasula. So we have other samples of

6 his writing. I would suggest the Defence inspect it, the diary and the

7 other documents, and if it is still questioned the next step - which is a

8 very expensive step and one which, quite frankly, I think we should only

9 take if there is some very good foundation to still assert that this

10 document is a forgery - would be to send it to the home office

11 laboratories in London for a question document examiner to examine the

12 diary and the documents apparently signed by him in order to at least say

13 whether those documents were both written by the same person. I mean,

14 obviously they can't say whether or not it's Mr. Rasula --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's come to the second of these two suggestions

16 you are making if and when it is necessary to come to them.

17 MR. CAYLEY: I agree.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, with -- let's stop on the first

19 one. Are there any comments on the proposition that is being made by

20 Mr. Cayley to the Defence teams to inspect this -- what is allegedly the

21 original diary of Mr. Rasula, and then we'll take it up from there

22 depending on what the outcome of your inspection, if there will be one,

23 will be, or do you require time until, say, tomorrow to think about it and

24 then come back with a reply?

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

Page 6957

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In any event, we would like

2 to see that document, but I would like to specify that the document that

3 we read before was in fact a false document. But that poses another

4 question. For many of the documents this problem will arise because

5 obviously somebody from inside the Tribunal added words on a document which was a

6 copy of the original.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I think Mr. Cayley's suggestion

9 is -- is appropriate, that we have an opportunity to inspect it. And I

10 don't think we can really go much beyond --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: For the time being, that's why I stopped him,

12 actually, because I think it would be preempting several other issues and

13 matters.

14 First they inspect it, and then we see. Because --

15 MR. ACKERMAN: See what happens next.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. That's my suggestion to you.

17 Okay. So you will make arrangements -- I would imagine that this

18 is taken up between the Prosecution and the Defence without the Trial

19 Chamber having anything to do with it.

20 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour. We can arrange a convenient time

21 for the Defence.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Then come back to us when you are ready and you are

23 in a position to enlighten us further.

24 MR. CAYLEY: And the next -- and the final matter, is actually, on

25 the order of witnesses. It's a slight change, only that two witnesses

Page 6958

1 have essentially fallen away for the moment and simply because the

2 witnesses that were planned for Thursday and Friday of this week are for

3 us fixed points in time. They have to testify on those days. So Witness

4 7.12 will testify after this witness. And then Witness 7.139, 7.143, and

5 7.52. Witness 7.13 will go back to next week. And as I say, the only

6 reason we've made that change is because we have to get those three

7 witnesses in at the end of this week, beginning of next week. That's

8 7.139, 7.143, and 7.52.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that cause any problems to any of the Defence

10 teams?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, it's the issue that I wanted to

12 discuss. And I -- in direct response to your question, no, it doesn't

13 cause any problems other than it re-establishes confusion as to where we

14 go next. We had a list which we were told was the final list for Sanski

15 Most, and then all of a sudden it's changed again. So I don't know where

16 we're going after this week. It's pretty clear to me where we're going

17 this week. But after that, I don't know whether we revert back to the old

18 list or what we're going to do. And so I would hope the Prosecutor can

19 get that cleared up for us fairly soon.

20 The other thing, Your Honour, that concerns me - and I've

21 discussed this with Mr. Cayley and Ms. Korner earlier today - I had first

22 understood, and it turned out that I was wrong, that Witness 7.52 was only

23 going to be able to be with us for one day and there was no way we were

24 going to be able to complete all the examination and cross-examination of

25 that witness in one day. I'm now told that he can also be available for

Page 6959

1 our Trial Chamber on Monday. And maybe that will be enough and maybe it

2 won't. I don't know. He's -- he's got quite an extensive bit of

3 paperwork surrounding his proposed testimony. And it's likely that we

4 would take more than two days with him. What I would -- what I

5 would suggest to Your Honours, is that it somehow be made clear -- and

6 this is for our witness as well as the Prosecutor's witnesses -- that once

7 a witness comes here and sits in that chair and takes the oath, they're

8 here until they're excused by the Court -- by the Chamber. And it's --

9 it -- we would work around their schedules as best we can and try to

10 accommodate them as best we can but we can't have a situation where at

11 the, you know, end of the direct the Prosecutor announces that the

12 witness must leave in one hour and can't come back and therefore you have

13 to do your cross in one hour. And I think that needs to be clearly

14 understood, that once the witness is here the witness is here until the

15 Chamber is satisfied that cross-examination has been appropriately

16 allowed.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cayley.

18 MR. CAYLEY: I mean, in principle Mr. Ackerman is absolutely

19 right. I mean, I can't disagree with what he's saying. In respect --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm glad you concede that.

21 MR. CAYLEY: In respect of this witness, the reason why we are

22 somewhat sympathetic towards him is because he's testified a number of

23 times at the Tribunal. He's a very busy man. He travels all over Europe

24 and has a lot of business interest that he needs to attend to. But I

25 think -- he's a form British army officer and I think he will understand

Page 6960

1 that once the Chamber says, "Sorry, witness, but you are going to have to

2 stay until you're finished," he will accept that position and stay.

3 He did ask that he testify this coming Friday for reasons of his

4 own calendar which we are trying to accommodate. But as Mr. Ackerman

5 discussed with Ms. Korner, he will be available at least to this Chamber

6 on Friday and Monday, and I think there will be an understanding that if

7 it has to go on after that, it will. But he's supposed to be testifying

8 in another case and we're trying to coordinate to get him in there as

9 well. But that's the position with this witness, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you happy with that, Mr. Ackerman?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour, I am.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Any further points that you would like to

13 raise?

14 So I think we can call it a day. Well, I thank you, and we'll

15 resume tomorrow in Courtroom I. Tomorrow will be Courtroom I. And then I

16 think Friday we will be back in Courtroom II, here, in this fantastic

17 courtroom. I thank you. Good evening.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

19 at 6.24 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

20 the 18th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.