Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7240

1 Friday, 21 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.02 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please. Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: The usual routine. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to

10 you. Can you hear me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your

12 Honours. I can hear you and I understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

14 General Talic, good morning to you too. Can you hear me in a

15 language that you can understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I

17 can hear you and I understand you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

19 Appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Anna Richterova for the Prosecution, assisted by

21 Denise Gustin, case manager.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam Richterova.

23 And appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

24 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

25 Milan Trbojevic, co-counsel for Mr. Brdjanin. Lead counsel Mr. Ackerman

Page 7241

1 is with us and our assistant Marela Jevtovic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good morning to you.

3 Appearances for General Momir Talic.

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your

5 Honours. I am Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau and I represent General Talic.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, madam.

7 So any preliminaries? The request for the Chamber to go into

8 closed session still stands.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. Your Honour, it is the same situation as

10 yesterday.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, I know that.

12 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm presuming, and probably correctly, that the

14 Chamber would not entertain a motion for adjournment in honour of the

15 World Cup.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I was on the phone with my family just

17 a few minutes ago. My two daughters, who are both lawyers, didn't go to

18 court today.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: No?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: My son-in-law, who is also a lawyer, didn't either.

21 My other daughter's boyfriend is also watching the football matches. My

22 wife has joined them.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And I'm the only one who's working.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: You could fire a cannon up the streets here in The

Page 7242

1 Hague today and not hit anybody today. Nobody is working except us.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But Mr. Ackerman, it's important that we go

3 ahead.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I know, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I would love to be watching the match, but duty

6 comes first. So --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I hope you didn't take me seriously.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, of course not.

9 I think we need to prepare the courtroom to go into closed

10 session. The members of the -- in the public gallery need to understand

11 we have a delicate situation coming up with a witness that has asked for a

12 closed session being one of the protective measures, and the Trial Chamber

13 has agreed to that. So until the order is reversed, I'm afraid we will

14 have to go into closed session. Thank you.

15 Usher, please, could you prepare the room.

16 [Closed session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

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20 --- Recess taken at 11.40 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next witness, please.

24 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Just before --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

Page 7278

1 MS. KORNER: Sorry. Just before he's brought in, can I deal with

2 two matters.

3 First, the tapes. I'm assured that they will be ready before we

4 break this afternoon.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

6 MS. KORNER: There was an added extra message from Mr. Ackerman,

7 but I'm not going to pass it on.

8 The other matter is this: There was a Rule 92 --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

10 MS. KORNER: There was a statement tendered under the provisions

11 of Rule 92 bis which was accepted by Madam Fauveau and Your Honours,

12 another member of this --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

14 MS. KORNER: -- family. Your Honour, the witness was 7.139. Can

15 I ask that that be given the Exhibit number of 839.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: What --

17 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. 7.130.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.130, exactly.

19 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. 7.130.

20 Your Honour, could I ask that it be marked a confidential exhibit

21 because the details would disclose everything about the family and where

22 it is.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine there is no objection forthcoming

24 from the Defence for having it filed --

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

Page 7279

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So please go ahead with tendering this document as

2 Exhibit 7.1 --

3 MS. KORNER: 839.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, 839.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And it will be admitted as confidential. Thank

7 you.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, the next witness is in fact

9 Charles McLeod. Your Honour, it may help Your Honour to know that this

10 will be the fifth trial that he's testified in, so I don't think he needs

11 much of an explanation beforehand.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact I had already decided not to explain

13 anything to him.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. McLeod.

16 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm informed that you are quite familiar with the

18 proceedings before this Tribunal, so we might as well proceed with the

19 solemn declaration, which is contained -- the text of which is contained

20 in that document. Please go ahead.

21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

22 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 WITNESS: CHARLES MCLEOD

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. You may sit down.

25 You're going to be examined in chief by Ms. Korner for the Office

Page 7280

1 of the Prosecutor.

2 Ms. Korner.

3 Examined by Ms. Korner:

4 Q. Mr. McLeod, is your full name Charles McLeod?

5 A. My full name is Charles George Alexander McLeod.

6 Q. Oh, right. And Mr. McLeod, I want to ask you about the events in

7 August of 1992 and later in October/November when you were a member of the

8 European Community Monitoring Mission, ECMM.

9 Before I do that, can I just ask you a little bit about your

10 background. After leaving school, did you join the British army?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And were you commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in September of

13 1982?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And thereafter did you serve as a platoon commander in Germany and

16 later in Northern Ireland?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I think you then went to university and read German.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did you rejoin your battalion full time in 1987?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you then in fact go to Northern Ireland for a two-year

23 operational tour?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you then promoted to the rank of captain?

Page 7281

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in fact, during this period, were you awarded the MB, the

3 Member of the Order of the British Empire?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I think that you resigned your commission at the end of June of

6 1992.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And in July of that year, were you appointed to the European

9 Community Monitoring Mission, ECMM?

10 A. I was.

11 Q. And during this period, did you undertake the activities in the

12 area of North-West Bosnia?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, just -- because I think you're the first witness we've heard

15 from ECMM. Can you tell us what the role of ECMM was in Bosnia at that

16 period.

17 A. The fundamental operating procedure of the ECMM was to put two-man

18 teams from different nationalities with an interpreter and a driver onto

19 each side of a confrontation line wherever possible to try and start a

20 dialogue between the military commanders on both sides of the contact line

21 to enable them to stop fighting. And once that had taken place, then to

22 try and establish confidence-building measures and then humanitarian

23 actions.

24 And the ECMM had been operating in Bosnia before I joined the

25 mission but had left as the war had started. And when I was operating

Page 7282

1 there in August 1992 we were attempting to re-establish a presence in

2 Northern Bosnia, in the Serb-controlled part of Bosnia, as indeed we were

3 also trying to re-establish a presence in the Croatian- and

4 Muslim-controlled parts of Bosnia with a view to re-establishing our

5 normal operations of understanding what was going on and trying to create

6 a dialogue between the parties.

7 Q. Now, in respect of your activities and meetings that took place at

8 the end of August and early September, did you keep notes of those

9 meetings?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And subsequently, did you turn those notes into a report for

12 ECMM?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. I'm going to ask you now to look at a series of reports that you

15 prepared of meetings, and I think you've brought with you the original

16 notebook in which you made the notes on which you based your report?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can we start, please, with the report? Actually, before we do

19 that, I think before you went to Banja Luka and met with the mayor and

20 other people, were you given or sent a fax confirming that arrangements

21 had been made for you to visit Banja Luka?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'd like you to have a look, please, first of all at a copy of the

24 fax which was -- it's this one. I think I've actually got -- attachment 8

25 it was.

Page 7283

1 We can see that at the top it comes from Banja Luka, and there's a

2 phone number. And at the bottom, is that the official stamp showing the

3 receipt of this fax?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It's dated -- it's quite difficult to read, but I think it's the

6 19th of August, 1992, and it comes from somebody called R. Kosic, in Banja

7 Luka, "Attention: Mr. T Michels." Who is Mr. Michels?

8 A. He was an ECMM monitor.

9 Q. "Subject: Visit to Banja Luka on August 20th, 1992," referring to

10 your fax of the 18th.

11 "Dear sir:

12 "This is to confirm the subject visit as proposed. Only, the

13 escort will be like follows:

14 "Your team will be met at the Novska crossing and escorted

15 from the point of Bosanska Gradiska by the police of Republic of Serbian

16 Krajina.

17 "At Bosanska Gradiska OLR Kosic will wait for you with a police

18 guard at --"

19 Is that "8 yards"? It's quite difficult.

20 A. It's "800 hours."

21 Q. "800 hours," right, "and escort you to Banja Luka. Stay at Banja

22 Luka from 900 to 1500 hours as proposed. Turn trip the same," something,

23 "as arrival," I think. "Expecting to meet you tomorrow.

24 "Best regards - P. Radic, The Mayor." End of message.

25 Right. Now can we move to the meeting that you had on the 20th of

Page 7284

1 April? And I'd like you to look, please, at your report.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that fax be made Prosecutor's

3 Exhibit P840.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes. Exhibit number

5 840. Prosecution Exhibit P840.

6 MS. KORNER: Now, could you be shown, please, the first of your

7 reports dated the 23rd of August but referring to the meeting of the 20th

8 of August, which is attach -- was attachment 1 to the statement.

9 Mr. McLeod, how many of you had gone from ECMM to that meeting?

10 Do you remember?

11 A. There were four of us, three people who'd been the previous team

12 working in Northern Bosnia and myself.

13 Q. And we can see that it's dated the 23rd of August, and the subject

14 is the Banja Luka recce, as it's described. And if we look at the

15 introduction first of all:

16 "The recce to Banja Luka was carried out by an ECMM team with the

17 aim of beginning the process of re-establishing an ECMM presence in Banja

18 Luka. The team had a meeting with Mr. Radic, the Mayor of Banja Luka,

19 Mr. Zupljanin, the Banja Luka Chief of Police, and Colonel Vukelic, a

20 representative of the 1st Krajina Corps, followed by lunch."

21 And it goes on:

22 "I wrote detailed reports on much of what was said during the

23 meeting, and this is a report based on those notes."

24 And I think if we just read the general points, because I think

25 it's repeated for each of your reports.

Page 7285

1 "General points: The following general points should be kept in

2 mind when reading this report:

3 "a. I'm only reporting in the detail what was said by people we

4 met, not on our sides of the conversations.

5 "b. Although I wrote notes on large sections of discussions,

6 there are gaps when I left the room to make phone calls, when the

7 conversation broke down into general chat, and when specific names or

8 places that I missed were mentioned and when I lost the flow.

9 "c. This report should not be taken as a complete record of what

10 was said. It is written with the aim of providing a feel for what

11 concerned the men that we spoke to. And for that reason, I have included

12 my explanation and comment throughout the text."

13 Now, before looking at the -- and we may summarise a lot of this.

14 Had any of your team met Mr. Radic before?

15 A. Yes. The other three members of the team had all met him before.

16 Q. And what about Mr. Zupljanin?

17 A. I don't know. I would assume that they had, but I don't know

18 definitely.

19 Q. Right. And Colonel Vukelic, the representative of the 1st Krajina

20 Corps?

21 A. Again, I don't know whether they actually had, but it's quite

22 possible.

23 Q. So as far as you were concerned, though, this was your first

24 meeting with all three men?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7286

1 Q. Did you take along an interpreter or was an interpreter provided

2 by Mr. Radic and his team?

3 A. We had taken an interpreter with us.

4 Q. So we can see the conversations. At first where we see "Comment":

5 "At first the only people present were Mr. Radic and his interpreter

6 Mr. Kosic."

7 So you both had interpreters, did you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I think if we summarised the first part, Mr. Radic was raising

10 with you the Serbs being held, first of all, prisoner in a place called

11 Rascani, and then effectively the Serb view or the world is not taking, as

12 you put it, note of the Serbian suffering at Croat hands.

13 Could we move to the next page, page 2. We see that your position

14 under the headline -- second headline "Comment" was put outlining your

15 aims and ending with a direct question about what freedom of movement

16 could be offered by Mr. Radic in Banja Luka. And he told you that there

17 was freedom of movement for international organisations, but again said

18 this wasn't the case with some areas.

19 And then if we see the sentence: "Here we have opened all our PW

20 camps." Was that "prisoner of war camps"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then he goes on: "Until your head of mission can give us

23 reports on our prisoners of war, reports of people in the Green Beret's

24 and Ustasha camps, we will not allow you total freedom here."

25 Was this an issue that had been raised before or was this -- as

Page 7287

1 far as you were aware, or was this the first time?

2 A. This was a new issue because previously we'd had teams working

3 throughout Bosnia, and the main thrust of what Radic was saying was that

4 until we could operate and report equally in each of the Serb-controlled,

5 Croatian-controlled, and Muslim-controlled areas, then he'd seen no reason

6 why we should be given complete freedom to operate in just his area.

7 Q. All right. Okay. I think we can move on, then, because there was

8 discussion then, it looks like, about whether there were teams -- that

9 ECMM was going to other areas as well.

10 If we go to the next page, please, to where Colonel Vukelic

11 intervened, stating that "The position of our people and our nation is

12 such that any aid is welcome, as is any international organisation that is

13 here in goodwill and respects the sovereignty of our nation."

14 And then he goes on to talk about organisations and institutions

15 passing through our zone and states: "The effects are very small. I

16 would not like to estimate why that was the case but most probably due to

17 the fact that the conference is not finished yet and many already

18 recognise Bosnia-Herzegovina as a state."

19 What conference was he referring to at that stage?

20 A. There was one of the many conferences being organised by the

21 International Community to try and bring the parties together, and on that

22 occasion there was a conference in London where they were trying to sort

23 out a political solution for Bosnia.

24 Q. And then he goes on to talk about 3.5 million Serbs and their

25 interests being bypassed. Then he talks about what happened with

Page 7288

1 delegations. "I was personally a witness of the state of many delegations

2 from the UN to the ICRC. Many of them came with given tasks in advance.

3 You can imagine if a group of journalists came to one camp and all of them

4 address their attention to the person who looks bad and they do not pay

5 attention to the healthy people. You must allow that some people are

6 healthy and some are weak. It leads to a report that conditions are bad.

7 Such behaviour brings greater reward for the journalists."

8 And I think -- again, I'm going to move on quickly through this

9 report. Colonel Vukelic had quite a lot to say. And if we go to the next

10 page, page 4, we see at the -- near the bottom -- three paragraphs from

11 the bottom, he said: "There are problems with the blockade in this area.

12 The ICRC representatives requested that we improve the conditions of the

13 prisoners of war, and today I am forced to ration only two meals for my

14 soldiers. When the ICRC specify 2.800 calories for each prisoner of war

15 and I could not provide --" as written "220." But I think you made a

16 note. You thought that must have been an error.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you know at that stage what prisoner of war camp he was

19 referring to?

20 A. I think that we were aware there were camps -- I think at that

21 stage we weren't talking specifically about Manjaca or Trnopolje. I

22 think -- I can't remember the exact detail, but there had been at about

23 that time a photograph of a person standing against somewhere on the front

24 page of, I think, Time. And I think he was probably referring back to

25 that, but I can't -- I don't have a copy of it.

Page 7289

1 Q. And then if we just move on again, Mr. Radic talks about the

2 refugees in the Bosanska Krajina and the lack of electricity and the like,

3 and then exchanges of prisoners of war.

4 Now, can we go over the page to the page 6, because that was the

5 first time that Mr. Zupljanin spoke. And your note was that effectively,

6 "He spoke at length. He had what looked like a prepared script in his

7 notebook and seemed to paraphrase it."

8 And his position was this: "Many things have changed since your

9 departure and many more people are dead and many of us did not want this

10 war."

11 And he went on to say: "I think we are not prepared to make

12 concessions to anyone because our impression is that the world does not

13 want to hear the truth. It is easy to walk relatively safely in Bosanska

14 Krajina thanks to us, but some places are not safe. Genocide is being

15 committed there. We are blamed that prisoners of war are starved, our

16 babies die without oxygen, and that is not recognised. Sarajevo gets aid

17 but no one mentions Banja Luka and 176.000 refugees are here. Therefore

18 prove your force, let us open the airport and then we shall trust in your

19 abilities and goodwill; otherwise we will understand that you cannot

20 help."

21 He then talked about energy and the railway and then said this:

22 "International intervention: We are not afraid of threats and will not

23 give in. If intervention is used, it can only help the Serb nation and

24 other nations here to get more comfort. These are the flames of the

25 beginning of the Third World War and they will certainly get to the rest

Page 7290

1 of Europe too. I regret that you may not like much of what I have said.

2 I agree that we cannot agree on all issues ..."

3 And then were you asked -- did you raise the question of freedom

4 of movement for ECMM at the bottom of that page, and then Mr. Radic

5 replied to that: "Escorts will be obligatory, not only on your request

6 because there are regions and information that must be kept secret. That

7 must be clear to you since this is the army opposed to two other armies

8 and we would not want the other side to get such information. Therefore

9 it is up to the military authorities. The escort must provide security

10 and will take you to areas that the authorities say can be visited because

11 of the sensitivity of interests or information."

12 And then you added a comment: "They were asked if the sensitive

13 areas stayed the same or changed, and the response was that they changed.

14 The point was then made that if someone has something that is neither

15 military nor sensitive to hide, they simply put it out of bounds."

16 And Radic replied to that: "We guarantee we will not do that. We

17 must have trust. It is obligatory."

18 And then there's more discussion about entry to areas that -- for

19 security reasons. There was lunch, and you at item 4 tried out an

20 argument with Mr. Radic which didn't apparently get very far, and Colonel

21 Vukelic also had his bit to say.

22 "General impressions." Can we come to those. "Mr. Radic seemed

23 pleased to see us. He started by taking the line that he was only the

24 local man and not in a position to call the shots. In practice I think

25 that he was calling some of the shots, although he deferred to both the

Page 7291

1 police and the army."

2 Now, can I ask you about that. I know it's difficult casting your

3 mind back ten years or so, but what was the impression that he was seeking

4 to give when you first spoke to him? I mean, by saying he was only the

5 local man. Who was he saying was in a position to call the shots?

6 A. He was saying that he was in control of the town, the area around

7 the town. He was saying that above him there was a government structure

8 and therefore he couldn't speak on behalf of the government but he could

9 only talk about Banja Luka. And equally he was a civilian within a

10 tripartite management of the civilian, military, and the police and there

11 were obviously matters over which he was not in control because they were

12 matters for the police or the military, I think would summarise it.

13 Q. Right. Then under B, "Inspector Radic: Initially discussion our

14 return, it seemed that the principle of putting teams on all sides within

15 a few days was not negotiable. However, when talking about the time-scale

16 for our next visit and future activities, I gained the impression that he

17 accepted that we might be mounting missions on a daily basis by the end of

18 next week without the need for teams elsewhere."

19 And you noted that "He was well prepared for the meeting, with a

20 folder containing notes and documents, a list of prisoner of war faxes

21 from the ECMM, and a cartoon drawn by a monitor which he produced as an

22 icebreaker."

23 The list of prisoner of war faxes from ECMM, do you know to what

24 that refers?

25 A. No. I'm sorry. I think I was saying that he had a list of

Page 7292

1 prisoners of war and that he also had faxes from ECMM.

2 Q. Oh, I see. I'm sorry, yeah. I'm misreading.

3 And then coffee and juice for everyone, except Colonel Vukelic,

4 who didn't get any.

5 "7. Mr. Zupljanin was trying to be friendly with both eye and

6 physical contact, had what looked like a prepared script. I think that he

7 was basically positive in his attitude through the double-talk. He made

8 several references to the availability of girls and the prospects of

9 nightlife for the team, and he told a joke about a policeman who shoots a

10 man just before curfew because he knows where he lives and knows he'll not

11 be able to get home in time (an old joke).

12 "Colonel Vukelic had a degree of eye contact but it was more

13 guarded. He was more passionate in his statements, detailing the lack of

14 things in Bosanska Krajina and the difference between the treatment he was

15 expected to give prisoners of war and could give his troops. He was very

16 strong on credibility or the lack of it on our part.

17 "9. Conclusions: I formed the impression that they were pleased

18 to see us and that along with recognition, humanitarian aid for their

19 prisoners of war, and the refugees and population as a whole is a top

20 priority. They were quite hard on the principle of working on all sides,

21 however I am not convinced this will be enforced. They made repeated

22 references to the coming winter, and I believe they have a strategic

23 desire to have international aid to get them through the winter without

24 weakening their negotiating position."

25 Again, Mr. McLeod, those are your conclusions. What impression

Page 7293

1 did you get from these three men about their attitude towards your arrival

2 or your coming back into the area?

3 A. Well, the impressions as opposed to report.

4 Q. If you can. If you can't really say anything beyond the report,

5 then say so straight away.

6 A. I think the report probably summarises it. They were pleased to

7 see us. They were keen that we should be providing recognition for their

8 government and very interested to see whether we could provide them

9 information on Serbs in other areas where they knew there were things

10 going on but had no information. So that was -- that was fairly high on

11 their agenda.

12 Q. All right. Can we move then, please, to the next meeting.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that all these reports

14 be made part of the same exhibit number, which will be 851 I -- sorry,

15 841. So if that report could be 841.1.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no objection to these being

17 made exhibits. And if that's going to be the case, then perhaps it won't

18 be necessary for Ms. Korner to read them to us any more.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Ackerman, has just

20 suggested it's been crossing your mind for quite some time during the

21 first --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: If you're happy with living with what has been

24 suggested by Mr. Ackerman and go direct to specific questions that you

25 would like to ask the witness, then perhaps we could even finish with him

Page 7294

1 quicker than -- than anticipated.

2 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, yes. I mean, if it hadn't have

3 been -- I might have taken -- but it seems to me this is one way -- I

4 mean, it's the usual thing.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It is one way. I mean, I'm not stopping you.

6 MS. KORNER: No.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But in other words, you have a hint from the Defence

8 that they are -- there is no objection forthcoming from their part as to

9 the tendering of these documents as exhibits.

10 MS. KORNER: Oh, I fully appreciate, Your Honour. I am fully

11 aware that the Defence are -- would prefer the documents not be read out.

12 Your Honour, I am going to summarise them as much as I can until I

13 reach the --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you, Ms. Korner. It's up to you. You

15 know what the priorities are as far as your witness is concerned, that he

16 must return by a specific --

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour has already ruled there's no

18 cross-examination today, so --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes.

20 MS. KORNER:

21 Q. Can I ask you then to have your second -- hand your second report,

22 please, for the meeting of the 25th of August, which is attachment 2. I'm

23 sorry, the meeting was the 24th of August. Could you be handed it.

24 This was the second visit on the 24th, so that was some four days

25 later. Was it the same team, Mr. McLeod, as before? If you can

Page 7295

1 remember.

2 A. I can't remember if all four of us were the same. Certainly three

3 of the four of us were the same. I think one of the members of the team

4 might have left by then.

5 Q. Right. And while we're just dealing with that, was one of the

6 members of that team who came with you on these visits somebody called

7 Barney Mayhew?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who had been in the area, as you pointed out, earlier?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This time it was Mr. Radic and a Mr. Bulic attended, representing

12 the Banja Luka police. And I don't think on this occasion that there was

13 anybody from the army who attended. In fact, I think you raised it with

14 him, as we'll see.

15 Can we just see how it started?

16 "At first the only people present were Mr. Radic and his

17 interpreter, Mr. Kosic. There were very brief greetings and then

18 Mr. Radic made a strong opening attack," in which he said, you'll note:

19 "Did you get permission from the Bosanska Krajina government to arrange

20 this visit? And if not, why not?"

21 What was his attitude like, that on the second meeting? At the

22 beginning, in any event.

23 A. Well, the comment that I wrote suggested that he was being fairly

24 forceful. I can't honestly remember the precise detail of the meeting,

25 but if that was the impression that I formed at the time, then that's what

Page 7296

1 it was like.

2 Q. Did he actually -- when he said, and you probably can't remember,

3 but did he -- when he said, "Did you get permission from the Bosanska

4 Krajina government," did he mention any names in particular, even if you

5 can't remember the names now? If he had -- or if he had, would you have

6 made a note?

7 A. I think he said "government," and I think I then added -- in my

8 note, I think I actually wrote "government." I can go back and check it.

9 And I think I then added in "Bosanska Krajina" because that was what he

10 was talking about.

11 Q. All right. So just summarising that, you were still discussing

12 the question of the return of ECMM. And if we look at the second page,

13 Mr. Radic -- you discussed the method of operating, and Mr. Radic said:

14 "You will be able to visits those parts of the territory that are

15 approved by the authorities and have an obligatory escort in areas covered

16 by the war. Did you understand that?"

17 And then he goes on to explain that you needed an escort in Banja

18 Luka until the inhabitants, effectively, got used to you.

19 Then Mr. Bulic arrived, and Mr. Radic went on discussing the

20 prisoners of war camps and people that he had spoken to. And taking this

21 much more shortly, I think you also gave him some information about - this

22 is at page 6 - about the findings of the ECMM team that went to

23 Tomislavgrad and Rascani on the 22nd of August. Those areas being what?

24 A. Tomislavgrad and Rascani were areas within Croatian -- areas

25 within Bosnia controlled by the Croats. And specifically in Rascani,

Page 7297

1 there were a number of Serbs - it had been a Serb village, I think

2 originally - who were being held by the Bosnian Croats, and, therefore, he

3 was interested to know what their conditions were.

4 Q. Then can we go over to page 7, please, where Mr. Radic was asked

5 if there had been many examples of attacks in the Bosanska Krajina against

6 Croats or Muslims, and his answer to that was:

7 "Those were not individual acts but the war. Unfortunately, from

8 all three sides there were incidents, ugly ones, but not from Banja Luka

9 opstina."

10 And then he gave some lists of how many people had been killed.

11 And then -- and said: "All are under investigation by the police."

12 And then he said.

13 "When regular military forces are in question, they are in the

14 strict control of their commanders, but there are also those who just put

15 on the uniforms, procure somehow the arms, and they do not decide or

16 differentiate who to mistreat.

17 "We are arresting them, by the military and police, because by

18 international convention, men wearing uniforms and carrying arms are

19 treated as prisoners of war. In war it is easy to get both, but we will

20 clean them out in Banja Luka and also in other cities."

21 And you made a comment at the top of the following page that this

22 struck you as a formula for not according prisoner of war status to any

23 group of men whom it is more convenient to treat as criminals.

24 And there was a mention of 16 Croat prisoners who he had talked

25 about, and he said that they were well, and, as far as he knew, they were

Page 7298

1 in Manjaca. And he said: "Of course you will have to discuss it with the

2 military authorities because I'm not in charge of prisoner of war."

3 And finally, again, then, moving to the end of this meeting, page

4 9. He made this comment:

5 "Talking of Banja Luka, I would like to say that Banja Luka

6 without Muslims and Croats is like wine without the bouquet. They all

7 give characteristics to the city. If anyone is taken out it will not be

8 the same city. We even have one part with Gypsies and would not want to

9 lose them.

10 "Unfortunately, they are not touched by anyone in this war. I was

11 sad to hear in Kozarusa the Green Berets killed Gypsies who did not want

12 to join them and liquidated them."

13 And then at item 6, you said -- stated that you asked Mr. Kosic

14 why the meeting had not been attend by the military and by a policeman who

15 said nothing. "He said that they were waiting for the London conference

16 to produce something and that they do not think anything will be settled

17 until then."

18 And then you made your -- you jotted down your general impressions

19 on that, ending up by saying that -- well, effectively at the end, it was

20 a low profile meeting from their point of view and that the information

21 about Rascani caught them off guard, and they fully expect something to

22 cool out of the London conference.

23 All right. Now can we move to the next part. Is what then

24 happened that the London conference or subsequent to the London conference

25 there was a mission sent to Bosnia by the organisation the CSCE?

Page 7299

1 A. Yes

2 Q. Which was headed by Sir John Thomson?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was the aim of that part of the mission, in any event, to

5 visit the camps that had been said to be in the area?

6 A. It was.

7 Q. And indeed in other areas as well, I think.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And as a result of that, were you sent to effectively facilitate

10 the mission?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you then accompany Sir John Thomson and a number of other

13 people, in fact, on that visit?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Can we then go next to the report that you made -- oh, yes. I'm

16 sorry. Can I exhibit that report as 841.3 -- 2?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner, I'm taking it that all the

18 attachments from 1 to 7 will -- are being tendered as exhibits of the

19 Prosecution from 841.1 to .7 respectively; correct? So you don't have to

20 repeat it each time.

21 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. I think you came into the area through Bosanska Gradiska; is that

25 right?

Page 7300

1 A. Yes. I think we're waiting for me to see the report.

2 Q. I'm sorry. I hadn't realised it hadn't been given to you. Could

3 you be handed the report 1st of the 9th? You made a number of -- in fact,

4 I think we might give you the whole collection on -- of -- there are one,

5 two --

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President?

7 MS. KORNER: [microphone not activated]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the problem.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have a little problem

10 with the annexes because we don't have the numbers on the annexes. I

11 would, nevertheless, like Madam Korner to state the number on each

12 occasion, the number of the document concerned.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Madam Fauveau.

14 MS. KORNER: The next report that I'm going to ask you to be

15 handed is dated the 1st of the 9th, 1992, and it is headed "Meeting With

16 the Mayor of Bosanska Gradiska."

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The English version, and I suppose that's the one

18 that you have as well, ERN number is 00950336. That's the first page.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have that number

20 either.

21 MS. KORNER: Attachment number 3.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Attachment number 3, yes.

23 How come the attachment that they have doesn't have the official

24 ERN number?

25 MS. KORNER: I don't know Your Honour. I have no idea at all.

Page 7301

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have just one number,

2 7.52, and above that the word "Attachment." The documents that we have

3 don't have an ERN number.

4 MS. KORNER: It may well have been disclosed before it was

5 stamped. These -- these were -- it almost certainly was, Your Honour. I

6 think what happened was we had to get permission from ECMM to -- disclosed

7 on the 3rd of May, 2000.

8 Are you saying you don't have a copy, Madam Fauveau? Because if

9 so, we will provide you with one.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't understand her saying so.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have the documents, but

12 it's difficult for us to find the relevant document. We can find it only

13 on the basis of date.

14 MS. KORNER: There are two from the 1st of September, and if you

15 look at the subject, it says: "Meeting With the Mayor of Bosanska

16 Gradiska." Okay?

17 Q. We can deal with this one very briefly. You met with

18 Mr. Ivastanin Nebojsa - I don't think that's a very good pronunciation -

19 the mayor, and I think he was complaining about the attacks from Croatia.

20 And if we look at paragraph 14, he was complaining about the genocide in

21 World War II and so on and so forth. And I don't, in fact, think we need

22 to go through that. However, did he show you -- could you look at page 4

23 of your report, Mr. McLeod?

24 Did he show you what was described as shell damage from the night

25 before?

Page 7302

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And there was an unoccupied storage facility which had a 3.5

3 diameter -- 3.5 metre diameter hole in it claimed being caused by a

4 rocket.

5 I want to ask you this: You said "claimed." I mean, with your

6 military experience did you accept that or not?

7 A. There was certainly a hole in the roof. I hadn't seen the effects

8 of a rocket on a roof, so I wasn't sure whether that was the sort of

9 damage that you would expect to get, but there was certainly not a great

10 deal of damage.

11 Q. And then you would -- "While looking at the building, we were told

12 that the population was now 63 per cent Serb and 25 per cent Muslim. Also

13 told that there had been some individuals who had left the town as

14 refugees but no group."

15 Then can we look at your general impressions? The first comment

16 about this meeting was:

17 "The high level of security that had been laid on, with piquets

18 every 100 metres and the desire to make it seem important.

19 "The second was the very direct manner in which Mr. ***," that's

20 presumably the Mayor, "introduced the subject of cantonisation and

21 discussed Croat acceptance of the principle.

22 "The attempt at drawing sympathy for their suffering as a result

23 of the shelling failed entirely because this building they chose was away

24 from the populated areas and was not convincing.

25 "Conclusion: This meeting had been carefully orchestrated and

Page 7303

1 set out by the basic position of the Serb authorities. Most of the points

2 raised were reinforced by the subsequent meeting with Mr. Radic."

3 And I think we'll look at that before we come back to the

4 impression. So could you have a look, please, at the next report from

5 that date, the meeting with the mayor of Banja Luka.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau, if you have difficulty in

7 locating this document, it's again dated the 1st of September of 1992, and

8 the subject is: "Meeting with the Mayor of Banja Luka." Okay. Thank

9 you.

10 Are you having problems, Mr. Ackerman, with your documentation or

11 not?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I have the same problem Ms. Fauveau does, but I'm

13 finding the documents and getting them marked. They don't have any

14 indications on them at all.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure.

16 Thank you.

17 Yes, Ms. Korner.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. So did you -- you moved down from Gradiska to Banja Luka; is that

20 right?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And back to see Mr. Radic. And just so we get the chronology, you

23 then went to Manjaca, the camp, and the following day did you go to

24 Prijedor and then to Trnopolje?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7304

1 Q. And then here you see Sir John. It's written, so just correct --

2 it's item number 3, the conversations, comment of the introduction

3 "Sir John Thomas." That should be "Thomson," should it not?

4 A. That's correct. There are a number of typos in my report.

5 Q. There was discussion, and I think we don't need to go through that

6 there was discussion about the camps, about possible aid. And I'll just

7 check.

8 Yes. I'm sorry. Can we just go to paragraph 24 for a moment,

9 please. There's a comment before that: "The conversation broke down into

10 an explanation of the mission and the fact that it was looking at all

11 camps."

12 And Radic said: "On the territory of Bosanska Krajina, there is

13 only one prisoner of war camp, the one that you will see today as

14 Manjaca. The other one is not a prisoner of war camp. It is half open

15 and cannot be classified as a prisoner of war camp. You will see it

16 tomorrow."

17 "At --" should that be Doboj?

18 A. I should think so, yes.

19 Q. "-- Doboj there is nothing. There are no other camps. Bihac, of

20 course, is part of the Krajina but it is in the hands of the Muslims."

21 Then Radic was asked if he thought it was possible or desirable to

22 have mixed inspection teams for the camps. And he said he couldn't answer

23 that; it would have to go across to Mr. Popovic. Do you remember what

24 Mr. Popovic was? You don't seem to mention --

25 A. I think he may have been a gentleman from the Ministry of Health,

Page 7305

1 or that's what I got as my -- that was my impression. Yeah. I think he

2 was the gentleman in Pale.

3 Q. So the -- your -- Sir John Thomson's team was accompanied by

4 somebody from Pale, Mr. Popovic, who was from the Ministry of Health.

5 A. That's how he was introduced, yes.

6 Q. All right. Now, at the end of that meeting, did you and Sir John

7 go to Manjaca?

8 A. Yes, we did.

9 Q. And I'd like you to have a look at your report, please, on

10 Manjaca.

11 I'm sorry. Before we move to that, you said when you were

12 completing your report on Gradiska about the mayor of Gradiska, that "The

13 meeting had been carefully orchestrated and set out the basic position of

14 the Serb authorities. Most of the points were reinforced by the

15 subsequent meeting with Mr. Radic."

16 Can you just explain what you mean by the meeting being carefully

17 orchestrated.

18 A. The fact that the -- the route which we took from the bridge where

19 you cross over into Bosanska Gradiska to the building in which the meeting

20 took place was lined by -- oh, I can't remember whether they were soldiers

21 or policemen, but men in uniform, anyway, all the way around, and the fact

22 that we were escorted and shown various things. Obviously some thought

23 had gone into this. It wasn't anything that hadn't been expected or for

24 which no preparation had taken place.

25 Q. And the meeting with Mr. Radic - obviously this was your third or

Page 7306

1 fourth meeting with Mr. Radic, I think, by then - but was the same -- was

2 there the same feel about that, or can't you say?

3 A. I honestly can't remember, other than the notes that I have made,

4 yes.

5 Q. All right. Now can we come to, please, the visit to Manjaca

6 itself. Can you have your report, please, which is headed "Meeting with

7 the commandant of the PW camp Manjaca" dated the 3rd of September,

8 referring back to the visit on the 30th.

9 You see in paragraph 2 this report on the meeting with Colonel

10 Popovic, the commandant of the prisoner of war camp at Manjaca, is based

11 on these notes. Now, did Colonel Popovic meet you at the entrance to the

12 camp, or were you taken to his office? Can you remember?

13 A. I think that he or certainly his officers met us outside and then

14 took us through into the -- the administration area, into a conference

15 room, I suppose is how you would describe it on the table.

16 Q. And he opened the conversation -- you say you made full

17 notes. "Welcome to this prisoner of war camp." Gave his name, said he

18 was the commandant. "I want to stress that this is a prisoner of war camp

19 and not a concentration camp. I would like to apologise in advance for

20 referring to some of the articles of the Geneva Convention with the wish

21 in order to convince you that this camp is administered and functions and

22 is run in accord with the Geneva Conventions."

23 And then he went on to tell you that "There are around 3.640

24 prisoners of war. According to article 2, paras 79 and 80 of the Geneva

25 Conventions have chosen themselves their representatives and deputy

Page 7307

1 representatives and we hope and think that these people will always stick

2 to the Geneva Conventions."

3 "The people in the camp have been caught in the zone of combat."

4 And he gave the article. "I responsibly state that we treat them very

5 humanely and correctly in accordance with paragraphs -- as far as personal

6 property is concerned, this is covered by article 18. Conditions of stay,

7 used all the possibilities at our disposal to the effect of satisfying

8 part 2. You will see yourselves here. You will see yourselves here. I

9 would have been happier if I had hotels to put them in, but I have no such

10 possibilities." One of the unfortunate things is hygiene and medical

11 cover. And then he refers to the articles and the embargo.

12 Now, before we go on, was he literally going through it, as you've

13 recorded it, from what you remember?

14 A. I think that he had -- I think in one of my notes I comment -- I

15 think he had a prepared script and so he had obviously noted out the

16 relevant articles of the Geneva Conventions and was at great pains to

17 stress to us that on the one hand he knew what the relevant things were

18 and on the other hand he was complying with them as far as he possibly

19 could.

20 Q. And then he dealt with the -- he was asked about the embargo and

21 you said the blockade against Yugoslavia. And you then made the

22 comment -- or somebody made the comment that "The point was made that

23 medicines are not embargoed."

24 And then he said: "No medical aid because planes could not land.

25 Tried everything in the spirit of articles 32 and 33 to ensure medical

Page 7308

1 supplies for the sick," and then talked about washing and the ICRC.

2 "Freedom of religion. Anyone who wants to practice religion --

3 but we haven't had a single request. We have sacked five religious

4 employees. The representatives of --" I think that must be Merhamet or

5 Mohammed it could be, I suppose "-- and the Catholics have taken them

6 away."

7 One of the activities of the headquarters is to make prisoners of

8 war work. I wish to assure you we stick to article 50 of the Geneva

9 Convention and use them only for the type of work that is foreseen by the

10 Geneva Conventions. We had problems that everyone wanted to work, but we

11 do not have that much work. Conditions of work. Communications with the

12 outside world. They were abiding by article 73. And about 250 parcels

13 have arrived for individuals.

14 And then paragraph 15: "I would appreciate it if you pay

15 particular attention to one thing. We have had six deaths. All occurred

16 from natural causes. I mention it on purpose because I would like you to

17 go to the other side and see what happened to 6.000 Serbs who disappeared

18 on the other side. This is a list of camps where Serbs are imprisoned."

19 At that stage can you remember was he handing over a list?

20 A. I can't remember. He may well have given John Thomson a list. I

21 certainly don't have a copy of a list.

22 Q. And then he said he kept a record of the workers according to the

23 Geneva Conventions. He said there were six doctors and three medical

24 technicians amongst the prisoners, that 25 prisoners had been taken care

25 of in Banja Luka hospital, a good infirmary. Little or no medicines. And

Page 7309

1 then the nationality: 125 Croats, 3.4 per cent; Serbs, 0.04 per cent; and

2 Muslims, 96.5.

3 And then the colonel was asked about Davor Glasnovic, a Canadian

4 who was believed to have been in the camp, and that you were told he was

5 in Banja Luka. And I think you made a comment that you tried to see him

6 in the interrogation centre the following morning -- this is back in Banja

7 Luka, is it?

8 A. Yeah, that's right.

9 Q. "We got as far as Mr. Radic's office but were told the

10 investigating magistrate had decided that because Mr. Glasnovic's

11 investigation was in progress, he could not be seen. And we were told

12 that it might be possible in a week or so."

13 And then he asked you to be truthful and objective and to inform

14 public opinion. Then he went on to say -- I mean, there was Serb -- there

15 was complaint about the exchanges with Mr. Izetbegovic and the like --

16 that 390 -- over 390 people had been freed, over 60 or under 18. Dealt

17 with the humanitarian organisations, the media and other people who had

18 visited. A group of Lords here from the UK, the ICRC.

19 And then we look at the comment just before paragraph 33: "The

20 commandant was asked how the prisoners of war were actually taken, if they

21 were actually fighting or carrying weapons."

22 And his reply was this: "There is the interrogation period.

23 Everyone is being interrogated. And if it is proven that he did not take

24 part in the fighting, he will be freed."

25 So in fact that was the only answer you got to that question, was

Page 7310

1 it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And then he was asked about those who were unable to

4 work because there was not enough work. And he explained the strict order

5 of activities. "Groups allowed out to rest or work outside an average of

6 four hours a day outside the blocks."

7 And then he went on to say: "The Geneva Conventions say they

8 should have two hours. This does not include the time when they go to the

9 WC or queue for food or medicals and so on. I'm very sorry it is raining

10 because you will not see them sitting in the sun." And then the point was

11 made that was a minimum acceptable level and that standards should rise

12 above it.

13 He was asked about the letters and the camp -- he was then asked

14 when the camp was formed and under whose control it was. "It was created

15 in September, about the 15th, for a group of Ustasha, until the 1st of

16 November, 1991. Then it was closed and not reopened until the beginning

17 of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 15th of May, 1992. It is under

18 the control of the --"

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down when reading

20 for interpretation..

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Korner, I've just received a complaint --

22 MS. KORNER: I'm going too fast.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

24 MS. KORNER: Actually, the interpreter asked me before to slow

25 down, so ...

Page 7311

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please.

2 MS. KORNER: I will. That's the difficulty with summarising.

3 Q. Okay. Then we move to questions about nutrition and the ICRC and

4 if there were any restrictions on the prisoners of war visiting latrines.

5 And you said there were twice a day, depending on their representatives

6 during the day. And then he said: "In the morning I have to limit the

7 time because of those who go to work."

8 And then he explained at paragraph 42 this: "I have been a

9 soldier since the age of 15. I was never really an orthodox soldier and

10 my weak side is that I am a humanist and I do not allow any reprisals and

11 repressions. Even children in the family need correcting. I respect only

12 work, order, and discipline. "

13 He was asked if there had been any escapes, and he said: "Not

14 even one attempt. And as long as I am the commandant, no one will."

15 He was asked when the camp will be closed, and the reply was: "It

16 depends on the government."

17 And at this stage Mr. Popovic, the health ministry man,

18 interrupted and said: "We know the results of the London conference, and

19 in this moment I am ready to sign on behalf of the Serb government an

20 order to close all camps." And there was then further remarks by him.

21 And then Colonel Popovic stated: "I was an officer in the JNA,

22 and no one has the right to throw me out of Bosnia because I was born here

23 and who can stop me defending my home." And then he talked about the

24 Croatian regular army, prisoners of war in Banja Luka interrogation

25 centre, one was a friend. And then the Canadian -- and apparently an

Page 7312

1 American was exchanged. And then he was asked if the interrogation centre

2 could be visited.

3 If we then go to your general impressions. And this is where --

4 Colonel Popovic was speaking from a prepared script and quoted the Geneva

5 Conventions by rote. "He was very sensitive on the subject of what he did

6 with prisoners who stepped out of line, refusing to give any more

7 explanation than that they were dealt with in accordance with the Geneva

8 Conventions."

9 I'm going to move next, Mr. McLeod, to your impressions of the

10 camp itself.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it -- perhaps that might be -- I think

12 that's going to take a little bit more time, so it may be a convenient

13 time to break.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

15 Mr. McLeod, we are going to break now for lunch. We will resume

16 at 2.30, as planned yesterday. 2.30. And we'll --

17 MS. KORNER: Is it Court II at 2.30, Your Honour? I think it is.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon?

19 MS. KORNER: Court II, as we were told?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are going to move to Court II. Yes, that is

21 what we agreed yesterday. We will be moving to Courtroom number II at

22 2.30, and we will hope to finish --

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we will finish by 4.00 at the very

24 latest.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

Page 7313

1 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: [Microphone not activated] I'm just standing up in

3 anticipation of --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner. You may wait one moment.

8 Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just so we won't have any problems

10 later, could you just make a very brief oral order that the tapes which

11 we've now received be transported with the detainees back to the detention

12 centre because the -- I think security wants an order from the Court

13 before they do that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Mr. Ackerman, the Chamber has taken note of

15 the request put forward by counsel for Brdjanin. The Chamber accedes to

16 the request and so orders accordingly. The copy of this part of the

17 transcript is to be handed to the commandant or whoever is responsible for

18 the Detention Centre.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANVOVIC: Mr. President, I would just like to make

20 sure that this order is also applicable to General Talic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The same order is being made applicable to

22 General Talic. It was taken for granted, Madam Fauveau, because you do

23 have a spare copy of these tapes as well, I suppose.

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely,

25 Mr. President.

Page 7314

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes Ms. Korner, you may proceed with your

2 examination-in-chief.

3 MS. KORNER:

4 Q. Mr. McLeod, just before the adjournment, we had dealt with your

5 notes of the conversation, if that's the correct word, with

6 Colonel Popovic. I'd now like you to describe to us, if you could, your

7 impressions of what you saw in Manjaca.

8 A. Certainly. So the camp was based in what had obviously once been

9 a farm on what was a military training ground, and the camp consisted of

10 the farm administration buildings and then a number of what I assume were

11 cattle sheds, and the cattle sheds were on the side of a sloping hill in

12 two groups of three, and the area with the sheds was surrounded by a tall

13 wire fence and then subdivided into two compounds of three sheds each, and

14 there were armed men on the outside of the camp and controlling the front

15 entrance. There was at least one watchtower with armed soldiers standing

16 in it. Down at the bottom of the slope inside the wire there were two

17 open-sided barns which were being used for preparing and eating meals by

18 the detainees.

19 Access, once you were inside the wire, to each of the compounds

20 and then into the sheds themselves was being controlled actually by

21 inmates. So they themselves were controlling access through the internal

22 doors.

23 Inside each of the sheds there was a door which opened at each

24 end. Inside the shed there was a raised concrete platform down the middle

25 of the shed; therefore, with two gullies, one on each side. When we went

Page 7315

1 into each of the sheds, we found that they were full of men sitting in

2 rows shoulder to shoulder, in six rows, so therefore packed into each

3 building.

4 As we went into each building, the men all stood up. It was

5 apparent that there was a leader or a foreman inside each of the sheds who

6 then addressed the commandant, and once the greetings, the interchange,

7 had been made, the men were all told to sit down again.

8 The men were sitting on blankets. They each had a blanket. They

9 had their shoes off in front of them. And it was a bit like sardines in a

10 tin is one way of describing it. Very, very closely packed.

11 There was a medical facility -- I suppose a ward, you would call

12 it, which looked again like a smaller cow shed, and there were a number of

13 people lying on - I can't remember exactly what it was - but lying not on

14 beds, and they had various injuries, mostly leg injuries. There was at

15 least one person who had had a leg amputated; otherwise, broken legs.

16 Q. The prisoners themselves, were you able to speak to them at all?

17 A. Yes. When we first went in, we asked if we could speak to them.

18 We were told that we would be able to converse with a nominated person

19 within each of the buildings, and a person was found. And that

20 conversation was being connected through an interpreter, obviously with a

21 lot of people standing around watching.

22 I -- I speak fairly good German, and therefore I walked down

23 the -- between the men and was trying to find somebody who could speak

24 German - typically quite a lot of people in the former Yugoslavia can

25 speak German - and was able to have a brief conversation with a couple of

Page 7316

1 people. As soon as -- as soon as you struck up a conversation, then one

2 of the guards walked down to listen in to see what was being said.

3 Q. The people to whom you managed to talk, what was the conversation

4 about roughly?

5 A. For --

6 Q. Perhaps -- can I rephrase that. Did any of the people to whom you

7 talked complain to you about their treatment?

8 A. I think I've characterised the conversations within my notes. It

9 would be quite useful if I could then refer to those --

10 Q. Certainly.

11 A. -- if possible.

12 Q. If you would like to, with Your Honours' permission.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes. The witness may.

14 THE WITNESS: In my notes, I noted that there were basically five

15 points which were made out of the conversations. The first question was

16 do you know when we're going to be able to get out of here? That was the

17 most pressing thing.

18 The second point that was made was that there were no soldiers

19 within the camp as prisoners. They said that the soldiers had already

20 been shot previously.

21 They said that conditions had improved significantly since the

22 ICRC had started visiting and providing facilities. They said that they

23 had been in this camp for about a month and that conditions were far worse

24 in the previous place that they had been. I didn't establish exactly

25 where they had been, but they had been in another facility for a couple of

Page 7317

1 months before being moved to Manjaca. And they said there were lots of

2 things which it simply was not safe to talk about.

3 MS. KORNER:

4 Q. Now, they told you that there were no soldiers here. Did you see

5 anybody in uniform? That is, amongst the prisoners. Sorry.

6 A. Certainly. There may have been a few people wearing bits of

7 uniforms, but the overwhelming impression was that these were men wearing

8 civilian clothes. And we asked why this was, and one of the people

9 accompanying us, one of the Serbs accompanying us explained that they had

10 needed the uniforms and therefore they had taken the uniforms off the men

11 who were now being detained and had given them civilian clothes instead.

12 I -- I found that hard to believe because the people seemed to be wearing

13 clothes that fitted them as if they were their own clothes, so I think by

14 and large they were actually wearing the clothes they had been wearing

15 when they were picked up.

16 Q. You told us that the prisoners were -- seemed to be packed like

17 sardines in these barns that you visited. Did anything strike you about

18 the position in which they were? They were sitting, I think you said.

19 A. If one had to sit on a concrete floor for 20 hours a day - say, if

20 they're taking four hours out for work - that would be an excruciatingly

21 uncomfortable thing to have to do, I would say.

22 Q. Now, did you see the prisoners being taken for a meal?

23 A. Yes. As we were leaving, detainees were being taken in groups.

24 They would be called up again by a member of the detainee community, and

25 they would walk in rows with their heads bowed and their hands behind

Page 7318

1 their heads in silence from the barns where they sat down to the - I can't

2 think of a -- of a good way of describing it - the place where they were

3 given their food.

4 Q. You had been told by the colonel before you inspected that this

5 was not a concentration camp. What was your view of the camp?

6 A. I think that it would be fair to say that based on this visit and

7 some of the subsequent visits that I made -- or the subsequent visit that

8 I made, that this was a camp in which a large number -- three and a half

9 thousand male members of the predominantly Muslim population had been

10 brought together to hold them until a solution was found for what to do

11 next with them.

12 I think that the majority of them probably had not been soldiers.

13 There may well have been some fighting going on at the point when they

14 were detained, but these were not soldiers. These were civilians who had

15 been gathered together and they were being held and, therefore, not

16 prisoners of war. And if a concentration camp is somewhere where you

17 concentrate people into one place and indeed concentrate them very densely

18 in one place, then this certainly was a concentration camp.

19 Q. You told us about the conversations you were able to have with the

20 prisoners. When the guards came and stood near you, did that seem to have

21 an effect on the prisoners?

22 A. Yes. Very clearly they were not comfortable continuing to have a

23 conversation.

24 Q. If you were asked - and we'll have a look at a moment at a note

25 you made after your second visit to Prijedor and Trnopolje - to give the

Page 7319

1 Court your impressions of that camp when you left. Now, you've told us

2 about -- what impression did that leave on you?

3 A. I found it deeply disturbing. I had been inside a military prison

4 while I was serving in the British army. I knew that the regime there was

5 very hard, but certainly nothing like that which I was seeing here. And

6 again, I recognise that people can have differences of opinion about who

7 should be controlling which bits of territory. Back at home in Scotland

8 there is a degree of antipathy towards the English because of historic

9 differences. But to see people held under those conditions was frankly

10 wrong and very upsetting.

11 Q. Yes. When you left Manjaca, did you the following day in fact go

12 to the Prijedor area?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'd like you now, please, to look at your report that deals with

15 the visit you made, first of all, to Prijedor, in fact, in the -- when you

16 met the mayor. That was number -- Attachment 6 --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: 7, I think it was.

18 MS. KORNER: 7 -- Attachment -- forgive me, Your Honour. I've

19 just realised that I've missed out a -- a report.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, another report on --

21 MS. KORNER: Yes. There was another report.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: On Manjaca, Dobrnja.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes. I'm sorry. And it's my fault.

24 Q. Can you just have a look, please, at the report that you've dealt

25 with on Manjaca. It's headed "Manjaca PW camp," dated the 3rd of the 9th,

Page 7320

1 1992. And I think you've really covered all the aspects of that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I recognise Mr. Ackerman.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just for record purposes, when we

4 refer to these reports, it might be helpful to -- to refer to the exhibit

5 number so that we'll know what we're talking about when we --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you're right. For the record, we're talking

7 about Exhibit -- Prosecutor's Exhibit 841.6.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you.

9 I'm sorry, and it's my fault. Can we just look for a moment at

10 paragraph 16 of that report, Mr. McLeod, of the reaction of the

11 authorities:

12 "The Commandant, Colonel Popovic, was very clear that he wanted us

13 to see everything and report accurately. However, we were not allowed to

14 see everything and some questions were ignored. He quoted the Geneva

15 Convention to justify all his actions. A separate report is being written

16 on his interpretation of the Geneva Convention."

17 Just this: What were you not allowed to see? Can you remember?

18 A. I think that we asked whether we could go and see some of the

19 other buildings within the farm compound, and that was not possible.

20 Q. And I don't know at this juncture, ten years on, can you remember

21 what questions were ignored? Or was that just the questions we can see in

22 your report that there wasn't an answer to?

23 A. I can't think of anything beyond the points that I've made in the

24 report at the time.

25 Q. All right. Yes. Thank you. That then -- can we move then to

Page 7321

1 your meeting with the mayor of Prijedor on the 3rd of September? I'm

2 sorry. I beg your pardon. It was the 31st of August where you met with

3 Dr. Stakic. And he gave you a sort of talk, it appears, explaining that

4 the Muslim party had won the election, were in power for one and a half

5 years, and took the opportunity it gave them to arm the most extreme parts

6 of the Muslim population.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Same thing. Can we can identify the Exhibit

9 number?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We're referring to Prosecution

11 Exhibit P841.7.

12 MS. KORNER:

13 Q. And took the opportunity -- yes. I've dealt with that.

14 "The preparation has reached a culminating point at the end of

15 April, beginning of May, when these armed groups put up barricades and

16 started shameful murders of the army of Bosanska Krajina and the police."

17 Gave you a version of what had happened in Prijedor, said to you

18 that: "In the homes of religious leaders we found US shotguns which in

19 the US are forbidden for hunting." "Fighting and destruction," and,

20 "Several people were captured."

21 Paragraph 9: "There was fighting and destruction especially,

22 in --" should that be Kozarac? Do you know?

23 A. I can't know. We could look at a map and try and identify it, but

24 that's the way it ended up in the note.

25 Q. "...and several people were captured. We called on them to -- we

Page 7322

1 called them to free the women and children and let them go. They put the

2 women and children in the front lines and followed with their weapons.

3 The police and army accepted these women and children and put them in

4 buses and took them to safe havens."

5 And then: "In the course of the next few days, the army and the

6 police captured several thousand people and put them into Trnopolje to

7 protect them from the fighting with the extremists. That was how it

8 started as a collection centre."

9 And then he talked about the help of the ICRC, having Muslims and

10 Croats in the camp who wish to remain, about around 10.000. And then

11 contacts with UNHCR. And then he mentioned at paragraph 15:

12 "...Omarska, where people were caught with weapons, where 45

13 investigators interrogated and imprisoned people. And as a result, 1.300

14 were transferred to the camp at Manjaca and others either freed or

15 transferred to the open camp exclusively because their homes had been

16 destroyed, so they have to go somewhere."

17 And then there was the help of the Red Cross, welcome to the

18 delegation, and so on and so forth.

19 Then he was asked apparently what help he wanted, and he dealt

20 with medicines and food and the London conference. And at paragraph 21

21 stated:

22 "Neither Croatian nor Muslims left this territory, nor do we have

23 the intention of kicking them out. There are some who hold appointments

24 in the town and some in the forces."

25 And then there was talk about the electricity and somebody called

Page 7323

1 Mr. Kovacevic [sic].

2 So Mr. -- I don't -- you didn't, I don't think, listed, did you,

3 the people, the names of the people who were present at the meeting?

4 A. No.

5 Q. No. But there was clearly somebody called Mr. Kovacevic [sic]?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Or "Kovacic" I suppose it's spelt. And there was more about the

8 electricity, the corridors.

9 And then if we go to paragraph 28, Dr. Stakic was asserting that:

10 "There was equal treatment for all. Some Muslim areas have not

11 been touched by war. We support your ideas for negotiations."

12 And then, "Mr." blank, "member of the regional government." Is

13 that somebody whose name you clearly didn't get at the time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I don't imagine you can remember, but by regional government, do

16 you mean the government in Prijedor or something higher than that?

17 A. I'm not sure. I was -- I was noting the fact that he was

18 introduced as somebody from the regional government without being able to

19 find out further actually where he sat within a hierarchy [Realtime

20 transcript read in error "higher ark i"].

21 Q. All right and he addressed you on the problem of, effectively,

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I don't think we need trouble in this case to

23 go through that. And then there was --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

Page 7324

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Line 11:1, the word shut be "hierarchy,"

2 h-i-e-r-a-r-c-h-y, not "higher ark i."

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. Then there was talk about exchange of prisoners, and you were

6 going to be shown some Muslim currency but there was no electricity at

7 that stage. And then if we go over, please, to page 5, paragraph 36,

8 "Mr. ?." So was this the man who had been introduced as a member of the

9 regional government? Or could it have been somebody else?

10 A. It would have been anybody. At this stage, I simply don't

11 remember who was -- who was making the different points.

12 Q. Stated: "We have released a certain number of prisoners from the

13 camp who were from here and who are still around, but in proposing an

14 exchange, we take a risk because we know as soon as they go back they will

15 be mobilised and fight against us. We have already had experience of

16 this."

17 And then Dr. Stakic said that:

18 "Kozarac is still not yet a safe place because the extremists

19 still come back and shoot, and yesterday we had two casualties and they

20 were killed."

21 And then there's talk about Mount Kozara and then reference to

22 Hitler and the four years that he couldn't get rid of the fighters.

23 38: "When we insist on not calling it a camp, it is because the

24 Serbs from here know very well what a concentration camp is, particularly

25 on the other side."

Page 7325

1 And then there was -- exchange was raised again.

2 And finally your general impression: "The version of events that

3 led to the opening of Trnopolje that we were given by the mayor was in

4 stark contrast to that given by the people that we spoke to in the camp."

5 So can I take it from that that you'd been to Trnopolje before you

6 saw the mayor of Prijedor?

7 A. No. But I wrote the report after I had been both to have the

8 meeting with the mayor and then subsequently been to Trnopolje.

9 Q. Right. "Conclusion: The authorities insist that they are acting

10 in the best interests of all the people in their area and that they have

11 no desire to get rid of the Muslim population. However, this does -- this

12 just does not match what they are actually doing. Against this

13 background, it is very hard to draw conclusions based on what is said."

14 43: "The conclusion to be drawn from what we have seen is that

15 the Muslim population is not wanted and is being systematically kicked out

16 by whatever method is available."

17 Now, you wrote this report after you'd been to Trnopolje and after

18 you'd been to Manjaca and the other places. What was it that you saw that

19 led you to the conclusion that the Muslim population was being

20 systematically kicked out by whatever method is available?

21 A. The -- in very simple terms, the theme that ran through what a

22 number of people had said to us was that at a certain point in time, the

23 Muslim population had been rounded up, the women and children had been

24 separated from the men, they had been put into different camps, and

25 already by then we had seen large numbers of Muslims being bused from

Page 7326

1 Northern Bosnia out into Croatia. And everything that one could see

2 happening then and indeed later on pointed to the fact that there was one

3 section of the community that was not wanted by another section of the

4 community, and they were being removed fairly forcibly. And in turn, just

5 to characterise something which was common across all parts of the former

6 Yugoslavia, their homes were being destroyed to make it quite clear that

7 they should not then come back again.

8 Q. Can I deal then with the visit that you made to Trnopolje? I

9 think your view is you must have written a report. For whatever reason,

10 we haven't acquired that, but I think this is right: that you wrote to

11 your father giving your impressions of Trnopolje.

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. I'd like -- I think -- I'd like you to have just the --

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we've extracted. The rest of the letter

15 is irrelevant. So this is just an extract from the letter that deals with

16 his impressions.

17 Could you be handed, please, just the extract. And that, Your

18 Honour, will become whatever it is. The next -- 8 -- .8. Sorry. Could

19 we make that .8 of the same exhibit, Your Honour?

20 Q. Reminding -- using that, refresh your memory, Mr. McLeod, what was

21 your impressions of Trnopolje?

22 A. So this appeared to be the site of a former school, and the camp

23 was bounded on two sides by a road. At the apex of the two roads there

24 was a machine-gun covering down the two roads, pointing inwards to cover

25 down the two roads. The camp was called an open reception centre. There

Page 7327

1 was a sign which clearly said that it was an open reception centre. There

2 were no fences around the outside of the camp.

3 There were a large number of mostly men. I don't know exactly how

4 many were there. We were guessing or people were saying between 1.600 and

5 4.000 people living in plastic shelters that were very makeshift. Here we

6 were able to move amongst the men and they came and talked to us, as

7 opposed to Manjaca, which was an extremely regimented environment. But

8 the story that was being told again was -- was almost exactly the same.

9 People were saying, "How long are we going to be here? We want to get

10 out. And we're being kept alive by the fact that the ICRC is now

11 providing us with food."

12 Q. You were told -- you'd been told by Mayor Stakic and others that

13 this is somewhere people were going because their houses had been burnt

14 and that it was a reception centre. Given that you say there was a

15 machine - I'm sorry. Let me get the right - a machine-gun covering two

16 roads down inwards, was that of any particular relevance?

17 A. The -- the Serb military or police arm who were controlling the

18 camp -- who were around the camp explained to us that this was there for

19 the protection of the people who were living in the camp, to make sure

20 that nobody came in from the outside and beat them up. It's quite clear

21 that there were -- there were no fences around the outside, so people

22 could come and go as they wanted to. However, I think that again it was

23 pretty apparent when you were there that people were there because they

24 had been told to be there and were not being encouraged to wander off

25 home, if you want to put it like that.

Page 7328

1 Q. Now, on the drive to and from Trnopolje, did you notice anything

2 about the conditions of houses along the road?

3 A. Certainly some -- some of the houses were obviously still occupied

4 and people were living in them. Other houses were destroyed variously,

5 mostly by being burnt. And again a -- a not untypical scene at that time

6 in the former Yugoslavia, but the houses would have been burnt so that the

7 roofs collapsed and you had the walls standing but the roofs collapsed.

8 And they would typically indicate that there hadn't been heavy fighting in

9 the area, just that the houses had been torched.

10 Q. Did you take a series of photographs or a number of photographs

11 during the course of this trip?

12 A. Yes, I took -- I took a number of photographs. In general,

13 photography was forbidden. However, as I was leaving at the end of the

14 day that we had been to Trnopolje, I took a number of photographs of the

15 houses as we were driving out on the road from Prijedor back to Banja

16 Luka.

17 Q. Now, I want to ask you to look, please -- in fact, I'm going to

18 deal with all the photographs together, although one was taken earlier and

19 one was taken later.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, before you proceed with showing the

22 photos to the witness. The extract from -- his letter to his father.

23 That's going to be P841.8 [Realtime transcript read in error "P814.8"]?

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I wonder if the witness could have

25 them. There are copies available for Your Honours.

Page 7329

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MS. KORNER: There are - one, two, three - six -- seven. I'd ask

3 they be exhibited as 842.1 to 7, Your Honour. I'm going to ask that they

4 be put up on the ELMO.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Again, for the record, I didn't say that's

6 going to be P814.8. I said it's going to be P841.8. And that's with

7 reference to the previous document.

8 MS. KORNER: The previous document, yes.

9 Your Honour, can I go through them. And I'll show the numbering

10 as we go.

11 Q. The first photograph, so that will be P842.1. Mr. McLeod, is

12 it -- it's clearly not you, but is that an ECMM monitor in the white and

13 the cap?

14 A. Yes. That was a gentleman called Mark Vogola [phoen], who was a

15 monitor from the Netherlands in fact.

16 Q. All right. And is this right, it shows the -- near Karlovac, I

17 think. It's the crossing-over from Bosnia to Croatia; is that right?

18 A. Yes. This is in the village of Turanj, which was near Karlovac

19 and was the crossing point -- the boundary point between the Serb and --

20 Serb-controlled part of Croatia and the rest of Croatia.

21 Q. And was that taken in fact on the 23rd of July of 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then could we look at the next photograph, which we numbered .2.

24 Is -- I'm sorry. Is that the right order? Is that the one that you

25 numbered 2? I think you've got the originals there, haven't you?

Page 7330

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That's the one you numbered 2, is it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that shows what? If you could tell us, Mr. McLeod.

5 A. This and the subsequent photographs are houses on the north side

6 of the road between Prijedor and Banja Luka in the Kozarac area, which I

7 took on the 31st of August when I was driving back.

8 Q. So that's .2.

9 If we could look at the next one. As you say, the same route,

10 same road.

11 Could I -- I'm sorry, can we just go back for one moment to the

12 last photograph. The house that was still standing next to the two that

13 have been burnt out, from your experience and from talking to people in

14 the area, what did that mean?

15 A. That's probably a house which was occupied by a Serb and so was

16 continuing to live there, I would imagine.

17 Q. Yes. So that was -- we've done the third.

18 Can we now go to the fourth photograph, please.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may we have the dates that these -- we

20 have the date that the first one was taken. Are they all taken on July

21 23rd?

22 MS. KORNER: No. The 31st of August, coming back from Trnopolje.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: August?

24 MS. KORNER: The first photograph was July. He said the remainder

25 were taken on the drive back from Trnopolje on the 31st of August.

Page 7331

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we look at 7199 again. It's actually 842.3.

2 Okay.

3 MS. KORNER:

4 Q. Okay. Could we look at photograph number 4 next. And you just

5 say the same thing.

6 Number 5, and number 6.

7 And then the final photograph, number 7, Mr. McLeod, I think that

8 was taken in October -- the 1st of October, 1992, and shows us what?

9 A. So these are people who had been taken by the ICRC from Trnopolje

10 and they were being taken from the Serb-controlled part of the UNPA across

11 to the Croatian side, and they had been moved up to the contact line in

12 Serbian buses. And obviously the Serbian buses couldn't then cross over

13 into Croatia, so the men all had to get off the buses and walk down

14 through no man's land. And that was a fairly hairy experience, with

15 minors on both sides of the road in the dark.

16 Q. Yes. Yes. Thank you. That concludes the photographs.

17 Now, Mr. McLeod, I think in the evening of the 31st of August,

18 after you'd been to Manjaca and Trnopolje, did you make a note of your

19 feelings in your notebook?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. I'm going to ask if you could follow in your original, because we

22 have a typed version and I want to check if there are any mistakes.

23 Did you record this at 6.00 in the evening: "Driving from

24 Prijedor to Banja Luka in the murk --"

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ms. Korner, which document are you referring

Page 7332

1 to?

2 MS. KORNER: Oh, I'm sorry. Your Honours should have a typed

3 document, which is -- it's -- the -- I don't know if you were given the

4 original. Yes, it says "Charles McLeod - personal notes."

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm. Starting with --

6 MS. KORNER: And it's the very last entry.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Yes.

8 MS. KORNER: It's dated the 31st of August, 1992 and it's 1800

9 hours.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And are you going to tender this as a

11 Prosecution exhibit?

12 MS. KORNER: I am, Your Honour, yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So that would be P843?

14 MS. KORNER: Yes. As -- we'll tender both the photocopy of the

15 original and the typed version as -- perhaps as A and B. So the original

16 will be A and the typed version B -- oh, there's a B/C/S, is there, as

17 well? Okay, C then. I don't know if we need a B/C/S version exhibited,

18 but ...

19 Q. And this is what you recorded:

20 "Driving from Prijedor to Banja Luka in the murk. Now fixed.

21 Under one-man police escort, lights flashing, ramming people off the road

22 in front. I need to write but don't know what to say or where to start.

23 I'm letting myself think just a little about what I have seen over the

24 last couple of days and learnt, and I want to throw up or cry. Throwing

25 up might be due to the 12-hour-old sandwich I have eaten, but the tears

Page 7333

1 are emotion. The images are of the rows of men sitting on blankets in

2 cattle sheds looking but not talking and standing eating at a bench in an

3 open barn, then falling in a squat."

4 A. There's actually a discrepancy there. What I wrote was: "Then

5 falling in as a squad."

6 Q. "As a squad."

7 A. "Heads bowed, hands behind their backs, to be shuffled back to

8 their sheds by one of their own."

9 Q. Okay. I wonder -- in that case, Mr. McLeod, it's probably better

10 if you can read from your original from here on in and we'll just follow

11 in the typed version. From the words "I spoke to two men there."

12 A. "I spoke to two men there in German, both of whom were afraid to

13 talk or tell me the truth but told me that much. They had been moved

14 there a month ago and that was a luxury compared with the last place."

15 Q. Could you pause, please. "That was a luxury."

16 A. Indeed. "That was a luxury."

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. "They said there were no soldiers. They had all been shot. They

19 were certainly wearing civilian clothes and someone on the escort team

20 told me it was because they needed their uniforms so had taken them and

21 replaced them with civvies."

22 Q. So can you just pause there. "They said there were no soldiers.

23 They had all been shot. They were certainly wearing civilian clothes..."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the next paragraph, from the words "I am thin."

Page 7334

1 A. "I am thin but so are all of them. There was a spark in some

2 eyes, but many were deadpan. When we left and drove back past the dining

3 sheds, they all waved at us as we waved through the armoured glass.

4 Sick. I want to write the name of a well-known rugby club," which was of

5 course is the Barbarians.

6 "Today we drove to Prijedor. And on the road in most of the

7 houses had been burnt but not to the ground. Then we had a meeting with

8 the mayor."

9 Q. That's what you wrote then, Mr. McLeod. Do you still feel the

10 same way about what you saw that day and the previous day?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then finally this: Some months later -- well, in fact did you

13 deal, as we've seen from the photographs, with the -- or help out with the

14 transfer of the people in Trnopolje from Trnopolje to Karlovac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then in November of 1992, did you go back to Manjaca camp?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And was that to assist the International Red Cross as they

19 transferred prisoners who had been released from Manjaca?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you got to Manjaca, where were the prisoners?

22 A. The detainees who were going to be released were all standing

23 outside the front of the camp in rows on the road waiting for us.

24 Q. And what was the weather like?

25 A. It was bitterly cold, and I think it was snowing. It was

Page 7335

1 certainly freezing cold.

2 Q. Can you remember what sort of clothing they had?

3 A. I think they were basically wearing the same clothes they'd been

4 wearing the last time we'd been there in August.

5 Q. Do you remember anything else that struck you about that, that day

6 when they were released? Did anybody make any speeches that day?

7 A. Yes. Once the whole thing was -- was ready to go, the -- oh, I

8 suppose the -- the detainee leaders, the prisoners' leaders, whoever they

9 were, asked whether they could address the commandant, and he said yes,

10 they could. And they made a number of speeches saying how grateful they

11 were for the excellent treatment which they had had whilst in Manjaca and

12 thanking him for being the commandant. And then they got onto the buses

13 and we drove off to Banja Luka and then up to Bosanska Gradiska.

14 Q. When this -- these speeches were being made, clearly you were

15 present. Were also representatives of the International Red Cross present

16 at the same time?

17 A. Yes. They had to go through a process of interviewing each of the

18 men before they were released to make sure they wanted to be released.

19 That's one of the processes that the ICRC have to go through under such

20 circumstances.

21 Q. Do you remember whether there were any journalists there?

22 A. I -- I don't think there were. I'm not sure, but I don't think

23 so.

24 Q. And then finally, Mr. McLeod, just to complete this. I think you

25 also assisted the International Red Cross in the release of Serb detainees

Page 7336

1 who were being held in Bihac by the Muslims.

2 A. Yes. So we -- we accompanied the ICRC from the detention

3 centres - I think there were a couple of them within the Bihac pocket -

4 out through Karlovac, all the way through Croatia, and then took them to

5 Belgrade, where we handed them over.

6 Q. And equally it's right, I think, that you've never met either of

7 the accused; that is, General Talic or Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 A. I don't believe so, no.

9 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. McLeod.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Korner, it has been suggested to me that

11 the --

12 Yes. Mr. Ackerman, let me finish this first.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- that the original of Mr. McLeod's so-called notes

15 will be P843, and then the version -- the English version, typed version,

16 and the other typed version, B/C/S, will be P843.1 and .2. Is that okay

17 for you?

18 MS. KORNER: Yes, absolutely.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Madam Registrar...

20 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the -- there was one page, page 58 of

22 Exhibit P -- what is now P843.1 that was actually read out --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: -- and compared with his original notes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct.

Page 7337

1 MR. ACKERMAN: On that page, there are six errors. It's a 60-page

2 document. If you multiply that times six, there's a presumption, at

3 least, that there are 360 errors in these typed-up version of the notes.

4 I think that is too error-filled to be permitted into evidence, and I'd

5 therefore object to it being put into evidence in its current condition.

6 It can be fixed, and I think it probably should be fixed, because

7 some of these errors actually change the -- the meaning of some of these

8 sentences. And I don't know how to deal with that. I don't -- I don't

9 mind having it in evidence if it's accurate, but I think it should be

10 accurate.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm only going to -- I'm quite

12 content -- it was actually only a guide to what -- we found Mr. McLeod's

13 handwriting - if he won't be too insulted - quite difficult to read, and

14 we had somebody attempt to type it up. It hasn't been done by him and it

15 hasn't been checked by him because there were some difficulties. But I --

16 I don't know. It may be that Mr. McLeod over the weekend, if he's got

17 nothing better to do, could check the original against the typed version

18 and make the corrections. But at the moment I agree with Mr. Ackerman.

19 I'm quite content only to make the photocopy of the -- the original

20 handwritten --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I would agree with Mr. Ackerman too, and I

22 would go along with his suggestion.

23 The only thing is that if what has now been suggested by

24 Ms. Korner to Mr. McLeod does not take place, then the fact that we have

25 one page here containing six errors, when compared to the original from

Page 7338

1 which it was copied, is in itself an item of evidence.

2 So -- because if we stay with the original as it is and with the

3 typed version in English as it is, I think we ought to have on record that

4 there is one page containing six -- six errors. That it should be

5 replaced, I agree as well. So this is --

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I leave it? I'll have --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. I can --

8 MS. KORNER: -- it typed up. If I leave until the Monday, I'll

9 have that particular page retyped by Monday afternoon when we sit again.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I just -- I just would like to say that I

11 would be extremely grateful to Mr. McLeod if he would go through that

12 exercise this weekend. And I might even lighten up my cross-examination

13 in payment for that, because I think I'm going to want --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It is important.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: -- to refer --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It is important.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going to refer to part of this diary, and if I

18 can't read his handwriting --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a question of not being able to read his

20 handwriting.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: No.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's problem number one.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But what may be a bigger problem is the fact that

25 because of that you would rely on the typed version in English that you

Page 7339

1 and I have, and not knowing whether what you're reading is a correct

2 reflection of what is contained -- whether it contains an average of six

3 errors per page, you know, and this is the problem.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if the Defence is content, what could

5 happen, as I say, and we're trespassing on Mr. McLeod's weekend in

6 Holland --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. I know. In fact, I'm not asking him

8 myself --

9 MS. KORNER: -- but if he were able to --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- because I have no right to.

11 MS. KORNER: -- perhaps on Monday morning we can photocopy the

12 corrections and then retype it at a later stage. If the Defence are happy

13 for someone from the OTP to collect from him on Monday the document.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no problem with that. And if it's more

15 convenient for him to do this at his leisure after he leaves here, it

16 could even be done that way. Just at some point during the trial of this

17 case --

18 MS. KORNER: Yes.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: -- I'd like to have a more accurate version

20 substituted for what you've got in front of you right now.

21 JUDGE AGUIS: Yes. I --

22 MR. ACKERMAN: It doesn't have to be Monday.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. So we take note of

24 that.

25 Of course, the Chamber is not imposing anything on you because

Page 7340

1 you're not responsible for the typed version.

2 THE WITNESS: If I could make a suggestion.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

4 THE WITNESS: I'm not opposed to, but if I could -- if I could

5 have a copy of the typed version on a disk in Word, I have my computer

6 with me, and I could then come back with the corrected version.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect.

8 THE WITNESS: I'm sure you can put onto a disk.

9 MS. KORNER: Would it be -- do Defence and Your Honours agree that

10 if necessary we can just talk to Mr. McLeod about this aspect of the

11 matter?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Only on this aspect, obviously.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that understood and agreed to by the Defence? In

15 other words, the Prosecution is authorised, between now and Monday when --

16 or Tuesday when we will see Mr. McLeod in this courtroom, that they hand

17 him the typed version in English of -- it's okay.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. That's absolutely fine. No problem at all.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect.

20 So, Mr. McLeod, that brings us to an end just for today. I

21 understand you're in another trial on Monday.

22 MS. KORNER: No. He's back here on Monday, Your Honour. He's

23 giving evidence in the other trial on Tuesday.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: On Tuesday. So --

25 MS. KORNER: That'll be the sixth trial.

Page 7341

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll meet again -- we'll meet again on Monday,

2 and then you will be cross-examined by the two Defence teams. Thank you.

3 Good afternoon to you.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if there is nothing else, we can adjourn,

6 resuming Monday -- yes. I recognise Madam Fauveau.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to know if

8 the Prosecution could specify the order that the witnesses will be

9 appearing in next week.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Fauveau.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think it's the order in which it's now

12 the latest list. The next witness after Mr. McLeod will be 7.112.

13 Then -- yes, 7.119 and then 7.59, I think. Isn't next week a four-day

14 week? I think it is. So I think that will be the only three next week.

15 But after Mr. McLeod, it will be 7.112, 7.119, and then 7.59. I don't

16 think we'll get any further than that.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] And the witness 7.13, isn't

18 that witness not coming next week?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, on that witness, that's the witness number 27

20 on the list appearing - the first one - two days ago or -- two days ago, I

21 think, to Monday or Tuesday.

22 MS. KORNER: He's given evidence already.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Mr. Cayley told us that there was a

24 rearrangement and that witness BT16 will be called --

25 MS. KORNER: 13 was this, Your Honour?

Page 7342

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. 7.13, yes. He was supposed to have given

2 evidence before --

3 MS. KORNER: Oh, I see, yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- before Mr. Biscevic. And I am under the

5 impression that it was either -- it wasn't possible for him to come along

6 or he was not exactly too cooperative or willing to come over, and he

7 would be producing him at a later stage. He couldn't come when --

8 MS. KORNER: I've been tied up, as Your Honour, I think, knows, in

9 the Stakic case, so I've missed all this.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That is the information that I remember having is

11 from Mr. Cayley.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, I'll check with -- yes. I've got an update.

13 Yes. Your Honour, as far as we know, but I hope Ms. Sutherland or

14 Mr. Cayley is watching this and we might get an e-mail correcting this,

15 all I can do is double-check that. All I can say is I do know that the

16 next witness after Mr. McLeod will be 7.112, and I have a feeling -- are

17 we getting any e-mail?

18 Yes, Your Honour. No. 7.13 will be the first week of July. So I

19 think that list that we now have in front of us is the order in which it's

20 running.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Does this satisfy you, Madam Fauveau?

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

23 MS. KORNER: Mr. President, I'm sorry. We had a reminder today

24 that we stated that we put the Rule 92 motion in and we -- I'm afraid to

25 say it's just slipped through the net, but it should be with Your Honours

Page 7343

1 on Monday.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

3 MS. KORNER: The witnesses we want to call under Rule 92.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I -- and that's -- yes. Can I

6 mention Mr. Mayhew?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours -- Your Honours ruled that he would have

9 been brought for cross-examination though his statement could go in. Can

10 I say that I'm just waiting to see what the cross-examination is here

11 before making a decision whether we require to call him or not?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. With that, I think we can

13 adjourn. I wish everyone a happy weekend, and we'll resume our labours on

14 Monday in the afternoon. Correct. Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.37 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 24th day of

17 June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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