1 Monday, 8 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated. Good afternoon.
6 You may proceed to call the case, Madam Registrar. Thank you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,
8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear
10 me in a language that you can understand?
11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your
12 Honour. Yes, I can hear you and understand you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And you may sit down.
14 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a
15 language that you can understand?
16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
17 I can hear you in a language I understand.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, General. You may sit down.
19 Appearances for the Prosecution.
20 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, assisted by Denise
21 Gustin, case manager. Good afternoon, Your Honours. And may I say what a
22 pleasure it is to be back here.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I share that feeling, Ms. Korner, and good afternoon
24 to you.
25 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
1 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I
2 am attorney Milan Trbojevic. Lead counsel Mr. John Ackerman and, assisted
3 by Marela Jevtovic.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And good afternoon to you and your team.
5 Appearances for General Talic.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and
7 Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau for General Talic.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you both.
9 So any preliminaries?
10 MS. KORNER: Well, as I'm back here, Your Honour, yes.
11 Your Honour, it's very short, and it's simply this: We are
12 amazingly enough reaching towards the end of the Sanski Most evidence,
13 although there's a major witness to come tomorrow.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you expect that witness to come tomorrow?
15 MS. KORNER: Yes. Depending on whether Ms. Sutherland can beat
16 Ms. Richterova's record of calling a witness in chief. We probably think
17 it will be tomorrow morning -- tomorrow afternoon.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's just this: As Your Honour knows,
20 we obtained from Sanski Most the original of the, if I can put it that
21 way, the Rasula diary, together with a number of examples of documents
22 which we would say unquestionably written by him, court records and the
23 like. I understand the Defence inspected it, and at the moment the
24 Defence for General Talic -- I'm not clear what the position of the
25 Defence for Mr. Brdjanin is -- is that this diary is not authentic. But
1 unfortunately that doesn't help very much. We need to know a little bit
2 more about what the basis is. In other words, is it suggested that it's
3 not his handwriting? Because if so, we'll send it for handwriting
4 comparison. Is it suggested that although written all in the handwriting
5 which appears to be Rasula's, something else has happened? Your Honour,
6 we need to know in order to be able to deal with it what the basis for the
7 suggestion is. We'd like to be able to start the process before the
8 summer break. So Your Honour, that's what I'm raising at this stage.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.
10 Mr. Zecevic or Madam Fauveau.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we contest
12 Rasula's diary on several grounds. One is the contents of that diary.
13 First, there are words in Latin script. Then the name of Rasula has been
14 incorrectly written. That is, his first name. Also, this same witness,
15 BT17, saw that he saw the journal in 1997 and there were no torn pages.
16 We saw the diary which was shown to us -- which was shown to us by
17 Ms. Korner, and at the beginning and at the end there are several torn
18 pages. Also Witness 7.12 said that Rasula signed all his personal notes
19 using also his father's name. In this diary, there isn't a single
20 signature by Rasula mentioning the name of his father. On all these
21 grounds we have every reason to challenge the authenticity of this diary,
22 and we believe it is not Rasula's diary. We don't know who wrote it, but
23 in any event we challenge its authenticity.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that provide you with enough information?
25 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, if I understand correctly --
1 leaving aside torn pages and --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
3 MS. KORNER: -- The rest, the only thing that we can do about it
4 is if -- if I understand this correctly, is that it's not written by
5 Rasula, so therefore we will have to do some handwriting comparisons.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: There is one issue that came up or one aspect that
7 came up last week when one of the witnesses- I don't remember whether it
8 was BT17 or another one- was refer -- referred to a particular page in
9 which there is indeed Latin -- or words written in Latin script, and it
10 would appear on the face of it prima fascia that the name of Nedeljko is
11 indeed written with an extra "J." That is, one instance that came up
12 last -- last week. The other issue was the -- whether there were torn
13 pages or not. I will not comment on that because the witness was
14 categorically not at the same time. But that's about it. The rest was
15 known already.
16 MS. KORNER: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, so you can take it up from there and work on
18 it during summer.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think -- I think what's more -- well,
20 we will wait until the evidence has been completed of BT21, because I
21 think he may be able to give Your Honours some assistance on this diary.
22 But after that we'll take the course that we think proper.
23 Thank you very much. Your Honour, then Ms. Sutherland is going to
24 call the witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.
1 So this witness is not a protected witness, if I remember well.
2 There's nothing --
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct? So we might as well -- usher, please bring
5 the witness in.
6 Ms. Korner, 7.119, we agreed that that witness will be brought
7 forward at a later stage. No?
8 MS. KORNER: Yes. I can't remember who 7.119 is, so --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the one who had been --
10 MS. KORNER: Just got a job.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes. He's coming at a later stage, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
14 MS. KORNER: Although we make take the decision, depending on time
15 scales, not to call him at all.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And -- 7.51, may he -- that will be in September.
17 MS. KORNER: That will be in September, Your Honour. Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So that leaves us with this one, 7.62
19 and BT21, and that would close the chapter for the time being.
20 Mr. Ackerman, aren't you contesting Rasula's diary?
21 [The witness entered court]
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we would just adopt what Ms. Fauveau
23 told you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
25 Mr. Muhic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The gentleman who is standing next to you is going
5 to hand you a piece of paper on which there is the text of a solemn
6 declaration which you must make to us to tell us the truth, the whole
7 truth, and nothing but the truth. It is the equivalent of an oath, and it
8 is necessary for you to make before you start giving evidence. So please
9 take that piece of paper in your hand and read out that statement aloud.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: SAKIB MUHIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you. And that is your solemn
15 undertaking to us, to this Court, that you will tell us the whole truth in
16 the course of your examination here.
17 You may sit down. And I will explain very briefly what's going to
18 happen. The three of us you see here, we are the three Judges composing
19 this Trial Chamber, and we are charged with deciding this case when it
20 comes to that stage.
21 You are here to give evidence, and you know that, because you
22 obviously have been briefed. You will be asked a series of questions,
23 first by one of the officers of the Prosecution, and after that you will
24 be asked questions on cross-examination by the two Defence teams. Now,
25 the members of the Prosecution team are to your right, and the Defence
1 teams are to your left. In the front row there is the Defence team for
2 Radoslav Brdjanin. In the back there is the Defence team for
3 General Talic.
4 It is important that you keep in mind that in answering the
5 questions you try to answer the whole question and nothing but the
6 question. Please don't go into details that are not asked from you,
7 because otherwise you will stay here for days and days and days. You will
8 not like it and we will not like it. So for your own benefit, when you
9 are asked a question, try to answer that question and nothing else. Have
10 you understood me?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:
17 Q. Mr. Muhic, can you please state your full name.
18 A. Sakib Muhic.
19 Q. Were you born on the 11th of April, 1939 in the town of Sanski
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Are you the son of Fehim?
23 A. I am.
24 Q. What is your ethnicity?
25 A. A Muslim.
1 Q. What is your religion?
2 A. Bosnian.
3 Q. Do you practice a religion?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You were married in 1964 and have two sons aged 33 and 25 years?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Because I'm sure there must have been a
7 mix-up in the interpretation here, because when he was asked for his
8 ethnicity he answered a Muslim when he was asked for his religion, he
9 answered a Bosnian. And when he was asked whether he practices a
10 religion -- practices a religion, he said no.
11 Are you a Bosniak?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, for me it's all the same
13 thing, and that's why I said what I said. A Bosniak, yes. Okay.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Of Islamic faith -- of Muslim faith.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. Mr. Muhic, I'll just repeat my last question. You married in 1964
19 and have two sons aged 33 and 25 years; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And when you were born, until 1989, excluding 12 year that is you
22 resided in Zagreb, have you lived in the part of Sanski Most town called
24 A. Mahala, yes.
25 Q. You had a number of odd jobs. And in 1989 you opened a restaurant
1 called Ribar, about 300 metres from the centre of town, which you ran
2 until May of 1992?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to persons from the Office of the
5 Prosecutor in April 2002?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That statement was read back to you by an interpreter, and you
8 then signed the statement?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Do you recall the two women from the Tribunal visited you in July
11 2001 and that you signed a declaration at that time that the contents of
12 your statement were true and correct to the best of your knowledge and
14 A. I believed and I read it out - not everything - but that is more
15 or less, yes.
16 Q. When you arrived in The Hague, were you asked to review your
17 statement again?
18 A. Yes. I reviewed it and I read it.
19 Q. And upon reviewing your statement, you wished to make a number of
21 A. Yes.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel speak into the microphone,
24 MS. SUTHERLAND:
25 Q. Mr. Muhic, I want to ask you some questions now in relation to
1 events that occurred in the Sanski Most municipality in 1992. Were you
2 ever taken to the cells directly behind the Sanski Most SUP building?
3 A. Yes. They took me there, yes.
4 Q. Who took you there?
5 A. They took me. They came to my home. They took me to the cell
6 over there behind the MUP building without going into the office. They
7 handed me over immediately to others. They kept me there. They beat me
8 up there. One day -- the second day, the third day, and then on the
9 fourth day some men came - not many - and told me that my car had been
10 used for transporting weapons. I showed them the car. It hadn't been
11 registered for three months. I had a Mercedes 200. Then they went over
12 there to the road, and they got as far as the road and said, "Look what
13 kind of neighbours you had. They reported on you."
14 Q. Could you please --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Ms. Sutherland. Be
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The sound from the interpretation room is
19 coming very, very faint. It's not a question of volume here, because the
20 volume is as it was before. But I can barely hear what you're saying,
21 although, of course, I can read the transcript. So please, if you could
22 speak directly into the -- into the microphone, I would appreciate that.
23 Yes. Sorry for interrupting you, sir. If you haven't finished,
24 you can continue.
25 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three, Your Honour. Can you hear?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I can hear you well now. Thank you.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND:
3 Q. Mr. Muhic, can you please speak a little slower for the
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You had said, Mr. Muhic, "I had a Mercedes
6 200. Then they went over there to the road and they got as far as the
7 road and said 'look what kind of neighbours you have'. " They reported on
8 you." That's when I stopped you. So you can continue from there then.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Mr. Muhic, who are you referring to when you say "they" came to
12 your restaurant?
13 A. I was referring to Vinko, a waiter with a weapon on the ready.
14 Then Krunic, a former policeman, a policeman before the war; and some
15 others. There were about ten of them; among them, some I didn't know.
16 These two I mentioned, I know very well.
17 Q. The person you just referred to as Krunic, how long had you known
18 him for?
19 A. I had known him for a long time, quite a long time. He was a
20 policeman for years and years. They also had a restaurant in the centre
21 of town, "Three Brothers" the restaurant was called, "Three brothers."
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecutor's
23 Exhibit P668.
24 Q. Mr. Muhic, while we're waiting for that exhibit, did you ever
25 possess a weapon?
1 A. No, never. Not since I was born, nor did I have any interest in
3 Q. Do you recall the month that you were taken to the SUP?
4 A. It was just before Manjaca, about 15 days before, something like
6 Q. Mr. Muhic, can you look at number 42 on the list that you have in
7 front of you.
8 A. Forty-two.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if the English translation can be placed on
10 the ELMO machine.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You could do that, because this was not one of the
14 documents that was indicated to us. We have 666 and 667 but not 668.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. Is that your name that appeared under number 42 on that list?
17 A. Forty-two? Shall I look through the pages? No.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Just 42. Under 42. There is a name Sakib
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 42.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says Osmanovic. Osmanovic.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think we have a different
24 document. P668 has the accused -- sorry, has the witness's name at number
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. 668. I saw 668 at the bottom of the page when
2 it was being put on the ELMO. Definitely.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: The exhibit that Ms. Gustin has just hand me,
4 Exhibit P668, has his name on the English translation but not on the B/C/S
5 document. Right.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: What seems to happen -- I mean, I have 667, which at
7 number 42 shows the same name, but there is no corresponding charge or
8 accusation against any of those names contained in --
9 MS. SUTHERLAND:
10 Q. On the handwritten page which will now be placed in front of you,
11 Mr. Muhic, can you look at number 42 on that page?
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: And that has the ERN 00493585.
13 Q. Mr. Muhic, can you read what is alongside your name on that
15 A. I still haven't found my name.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. Halfway down the page --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you help --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh. I've got it. Sakib Muhic.
21 Here it's under number 42, I think. Yes.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Can you read what it says next to your name.
24 A. "Smuggling of arms from Bosanska Krupa. Macanovic Mirjad.
25 Q. Were you ever involved in arms smuggling from Bosanska Krupa?
1 A. No. I sold the man a part of Mercedes, to this one here,
2 Macanovic, but his name is Mirsad and here it says Mirjad. Mirsad. I
3 sold him a part of the Mercedes. I was never involved with weapons. If I
4 had been, I would have been killed. Not just I; anyone else. So there
5 you are.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Muhic. I've finished with that document now.
7 A. You're welcome.
8 Q. Were you politically active?
9 A. No, I never was and I'm not active today either. I'm not involved
10 with any parties.
11 Q. Understanding that these events happened ten years ago, do you
12 have a good or not so good memory for events that happened in 1992?
13 A. I immediately said that I don't know nothing about dates, because
14 I wasn't able to follow this either, because it was a matter of saving
15 one's life. What do you mean dates?
16 Q. I want to know whether you are of the opinion that you have a good
17 or not so good memory of dates, as opposed to a good recollection about
18 incidents which you eyewitnessed and which you will testify about today.
19 A. I know they went to Manjaca on the 6th of June, and someone else
20 told me about that. When I gave my statement, I didn't know that. I'm
21 not sure about dates.
22 Q. We will get to Manjaca in a little while. I want to turn now to
23 another topic. What significant event happened in Sanski Most at the end
24 of May 1992?
25 A. At the end of May? At the end of May 1992 the radio of the
1 so-called Serbian Republic asked us to go out of our homes, of our houses,
2 and to go to the training ground where people would practice driving.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... do you recall what happened
4 the day before you went to the training ground?
5 A. Before we went to the training ground?
6 Q. The night before you went to the training ground, do you recall
7 what happened in Sanski Most town?
8 A. The night -- yes. Throughout the night Sanski Most -- that part
9 of Sanski Most was shelled. From 9.05 up until the morning, when we
10 started going out of our houses, leaving our houses, that's when the
11 shelling stopped.
12 Q. Do you recall what direction the shells were coming from?
13 A. The shells came from the direction of the right bank of the Sana,
14 over in Mahala.
15 Q. Were they coming from the direction of Mahala, or were they
16 directed towards Mahala?
17 A. They were directed to Mahala, over the Sana River.
18 Q. And from where were the shells coming from?
19 A. From Kljucka Street, from the bank. That bank belonged to the
20 Kljucka Street.
21 Q. Do you recall the ethnicity of persons that lived in that
23 A. The inhabitants in Kljucka Street, they were of mixed ethnicity.
24 There were all sorts of ethnic -- there were all ethnic groups there.
25 Q. You started to tell us a moment that you went to the driving
1 school. And you said that you heard it on the radio. Who made the
2 announcement on the radio, if you know?
3 A. The announcement was made by the person working at the radio. His
4 name is Miso Despot. We call him Miso. Perhaps his name a little
5 different, but we knew him as Miso.
6 Q. Do you know who was behind the announcement?
7 A. Behind the announcement? Well, he -- he composed this and he made
8 the announce. There was no one else.
9 Q. Who was he making the announcement on behalf of?
10 A. Well, I can't say that, whether that's this person or that
11 person. I didn't say that earlier on either, and I can't say that now.
12 If I don't know, I don't know. It was probably, in my opinion, Vlado
13 Vrkes and the others.
14 Q. Who was --
15 A. I don't know anything else.
16 Q. -- Vlado Vrkes?
17 A. He was the secretary and then he was the SDS president, of the SDS
19 Q. Did you know him personally?
20 A. Vlado? I knew his father very well, but I didn't know him that
21 well. I know his father very well.
22 Q. Who was -- on the radio, who was told to gather at the driving
24 A. Well, the Muslims. We were told to leave our houses, and if
25 anyone didn't leave on time we knew what would happen. If anyone didn't
1 come out, he would be done for, he'd be dead.
2 Q. Did you subsequently hear about persons from the Muhici village
3 who didn't comply with this order?
4 A. That's not the village of Muhici. It's the Muhici Street which
5 connects the centre and the bank. Well, let's say it goes up to bakery
6 and a gynaecologist from Banja Luka was born there.
7 Q. What did you hear about --
8 A. Radislav Vukic. It goes right up to his house. The street goes
9 right up to his house. Radislav Vukic's house, and he is a gynaecologist.
10 He lives in Banja Luka.
11 Q. The people that you -- what did you hear about the people that
12 lived in the street called Muhici?
13 A. We were taken to the training ground. And in the meantime, that
14 same evening, eight people were killed in a shelter, and the oldest woman
15 survived. So --
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I asked you whether you had
17 heard about the people that lived in the street called Muhici, whether you
18 had heard anything about those people who did not comply with the order to
19 go to the training ground. Are you able to tell the Court about that?
20 A. Yes, I can. They were liquidated. They were killed if they
21 didn't go to the training ground.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sutherland.
23 This street called Muhici, was it previously known as Veljka --
24 Miljevica Street?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Miljevica. That's right.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Sutherland was asking you whether you knew
2 on that street there were a number of persons who did not obey or follow
3 the instructions that had been sent out on the radio. And if that is the
4 case, what happened to them, that you know of, that you are aware of?
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this may assist.
6 Q. Mr. Muhic, do you know a woman by the name of Vojnikovic?
7 A. Vojnikovic, yes, she survived. An old woman. And in addition
8 there were other people killed. There were two retarded persons who
9 didn't understand orders. They were killed too in that Muhici Street.
10 And then there are the eight people I have mentioned and there are others
11 too, but I wasn't an eyewitness. So the figure is larger.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: How were those eight persons killed?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As there is a basement there and it
14 shattered the window -- they shattered the window from the street. They
15 threw in a few grenades. I don't know how many. And there were eight
16 people who were killed. And Tanja Unic, a Croat, she was bearing a
17 child. So we could say there were nine people who were killed and there
18 was that old woman that survived in that basement.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. Mr. Muhic, I want to concentrate on yourself now. Did you obey
22 these instructions to go to the training ground?
23 A. Whoever complied with the order, nothing happened to that person.
24 But those who were taken away on the other side -- we arrived at that
25 school, the driving school. We were there for one hour. And on the other
1 side there were about ten soldiers, on the other side of the asphalt. And
2 about one hour later we were told to go to the football stadium, the
3 Krkojevci football stadium.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... please.
5 A. And from there we --
6 Q. Before we get to the Krkojevci football stadium, I want to ask you
7 some questions about what happened on your way to the driving school.
8 A. Go ahead.
9 Q. Did you see any soldiers on your way to the driving school?
10 A. When we got to the driving school, the training ground, yes, we
11 saw them. And on the other side I saw soldiers. Between 10 and 15
12 soldiers were there. On the other side, that's where they were. On the
13 other side of the main road.
14 Q. Do you know a man called Ruhdija Bajric?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know the name of someone called Veli, Velic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know a person called Nail Selman?
19 A. Nail Selman, yes.
20 Q. Do you know a man called Lola?
21 A. Lola, yes. Lola is his nickname. Veli -- Velic, that's his
22 nickname. And Nail, well, that's the normal name.
23 Q. Did you see these men when you were walking to the driving
25 A. Not to the driving school, but to the football stadium. Not the
1 driving school. The football stadium which is 2 or 3 kilometres away from
2 that training ground.
3 Q. We'll get to the football stadium in a moment. After you arrived
4 at the driving school, who was there when you arrived? How many people?
5 A. It was full. There were columns of people standing there. And
6 when everything was over, we set off in the direction of Krkojevci, to
7 that playground Nail and these four men, Veli, and Lola, and Ruhdija, they
8 passed by us. Their hands were tied and they were heading in the
9 direction of the Krkojevci playground. So the road was about 6 metres
10 away from us, and they were about 3 metres away from us. The entire
11 column could see them.
12 Q. How many people were walking from the driving school to the
13 Krkojevci football stadium approximately, and how were they dressed?
14 A. We were all dressed in a normal way. Some people were wearing
15 working clothes perhaps, but everyone was dressed normally.
16 Q. Approximately how many people were in this column walking from the
17 driving school to the Krkojevci football stadium?
18 A. I wasn't able to observe that immediately, so I -- noticed this
19 when they put us in the hall in the evening. We were taken to the sports
20 hall in the evening, so it was up to about 1.000 I'd say.
21 Q. We will get to the sports hall in a moment. When you arrived at
22 the Krkojevci football stadium --
23 A. When we arrived there we sat down. We felt quite good. There was
24 grass on the ground. It was a playground. So we felt quite good. Until
25 Prastalo arrived. I know that they call him Kudra. He arrived in an APC
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and started maltreating us, cursing our balija mothers, and told us that
2 it wouldn't be easy for us. Yes. And he provoked us in other ways too.
3 Q. Do you recall exactly what he said to you?
4 A. Well, "We'll slaughter you -- they cursed our balija mothers, et
5 cetera." He said terrible things. First of all he said, "God help you.
6 Why are you silent, damn you," something like that.
7 Q. Were there military or police guarding you at the Krkojevci
8 football stadium?
9 A. Up until dusk, a policeman or two -- and there were armed
10 civilians around us. Towards dusk a large group of soldiers came from the
11 direction of a forest. I saw that night was falling. They came to the
12 stadium. I think there were 80 of them, at a distance or at intervals of
13 5 metres. Maybe they were crouching or kneeling. The women had started
14 going and the children too, and we stayed up until about midnight, the
15 men, and then they took us away.
16 Q. When you say "they took us," who are you referring to?
17 A. Well, naturally they were Serbs. There were buses there from Sana
18 Trans, the transport company. They'd fill the buses up and off to
19 the sports hall then.
20 Q. Were all the men, women, and children taken to the sports hall who
21 were at the Krkojevci football stadium?
22 A. That evening, yes, everyone. On the following day they separated
23 the women and children and took them to the neighbouring villages. They
24 didn't allow them to go home. They didn't allow them to return to their
25 homes. By no means.
1 Q. When you arrived at the sports hall, was it guarded by military or
3 A. Well, naturally. Of course.
4 Q. Was it guarded by the military or the police or both?
5 A. Police. There were other men there, but the police were there
6 too. The torture in the hall wasn't that terrible.
7 Q. How were they dressed?
8 A. Normal police uniforms, the former police uniforms. And there
9 were some colourful uniforms. I think they're military uniforms.
10 Camouflage uniforms of some kind. And the police in blue uniforms.
11 Q. Did you see any insignia on the uniforms?
12 A. There were insignia, but mostly when -- on their caps there was
13 a -- the Serbian flag, a flag of some kind.
14 Q. Were they armed?
15 A. Well, naturally. Naturally they were armed.
16 Q. Were you allowed to leave the sports hall at any time?
17 A. Well, they didn't let us leave until they had decided who would go
18 to Manjaca and who would remain. And then everyone was taken to Manjaca
19 from there, after one month. And then I left on the 6th of June, and the
20 others, I think they left on the 7th of July, one month later. My son and
21 neighbours and so on.
22 Q. Pause there, please.
23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think there's a problem
1 with the interpretation. On page 22, line 11 and 12. When the witness
2 spoke about insignia, he said in fact that these flags were ribbons on the
3 heads of the soldiers -- ribbons around their forehead.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Muhic, you have heard what Madam Fauveau has
5 just stated. Is that correct?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. But if he had a
7 high rank, he had a rank. Let's say the rank of captain, lieutenant,
8 et cetera. I don't understand these matters very well because I served in
9 the army a long time ago.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that satisfy everyone? I don't think we went
11 that far, but --
12 Yes, Ms. Sutherland. Please go ahead.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Muhic, you said that the following morning -- the following
15 day that the women and children had to go to nearby villages. What were
16 the names of these villages, if you know?
17 A. Well, the one that connects with the Sanski Most town -- the
18 nearest village was Pobrijezje. That's where my wife was and my younger
19 son, who at the time was 13 years old.
20 Q. Did you become aware of where these women and children went to
21 after they were taken to these villages?
22 A. I found out, because immediately on the following day I was
23 brought a roasted chicken and -- but she didn't find out about me. I
24 wasn't there for three days. I -- she brought another one.
25 Q. Did your wife tell you or anyone else tell you what happened to
1 the women and children who were taken to the village of Pobrijezje -- I'm
2 sorry for my pronunciation --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Pobrijezje.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
5 A. She told me that they had been received by the people from the
6 village. Some people took them into their houses, two families or one
7 family. That's how they divided the women and children. And people over
8 60 years of age.
9 Q. Did you hear that they were later taken to Velika Kladusa?
10 A. No. I later heard that they tried to get through to Jajce. They
11 got as far as Mrkonjic, Palanka, but they weren't able to get through so
12 they were sent back. And only later did they head for Kladusa through
13 Palanka and they arrived in Kladusa. They stayed there, and it was as if
14 they were with the Serbs. They were with Fikret Abdic. He didn't give
15 them any bread. He gave them nothing.
16 Q. After the women, children, and elderly had left the sports hall,
17 approximately how many men remained in the sports hall?
18 A. Well, in the first group about 143 of us left and went to
19 Manjaca. That was the first group. Then after us, a month later,
20 together with my son, and they counted them, and it was between seven and
21 eight hundred people that arrived at Manjaca.
22 Q. Mr. Muhic, can you please listen to my question. My question
23 was: After the women, children, and elderly had left the sports hall,
24 approximately how many men remained in the sports hall?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, we don't want to know anything about
1 Manjaca for the time being. The question was referring to how many men
2 remained in the sports hall.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND:
4 Q. Before you were taken --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before you were taken --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After I left, there were between 700
7 and 800 men left, and all of them came to Manjaca a month later.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. So that means between seven and eight hundred men, plus the 143,
10 which you say left the sports hall earlier. Thank you.
11 Were your particulars taken at any point --
12 A. In my group, yes.
13 Q. Were your particulars taken at any point in the sports hall?
14 A. The sports hall, yes. They did take our particulars, for all of
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... particulars.
17 A. For all of us. Spaso Cucak. He's still working in the council at
18 the municipality. He took down all our data down to make sure that there
19 would be no false accusations. So it's a good thing that we were all
20 registered by him.
21 Q. Do you recall how long you were detained in the sports hall?
22 A. I was there for a brief period, briefly. In this large hall,
23 maybe four or five days. And in the Hasan Kikic, like the gym -- but
24 that's a hall too -- for two or three days. And that is when the 6th of
25 June arrived with the trucks and came, and they moved us.
1 Q. We'll get to Hasan Kikic school and the 6th of June shortly.
2 During the time that you were in the sports hall, did anyone come
3 there and speak to the detainees? Anyone from the Serb authorities?
4 A. No. It was like this: Two Nivas came and called out some of the
5 men. I was among them. And I was among the first to be interrogated by
6 Branko Sobot, and I was the first to finish. And then he ordered somebody
7 to put me below -- under the steps to wait.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just pause there.
9 Mr. Muhic --
10 A. Yes, please.
11 Q. Can you please look at me. Can you please listen to my question
12 very carefully and answer the question that I am asking you. We will
13 discuss when you were taken to the SUP and when you were interrogated by
14 Mr. Sobot shortly. I'm now talking about the sports hall. I want to know
15 whether during the time that you were detained there, whether anyone from
16 the Serbian authorities came and spoke to the detainees there and, if so,
18 A. Oh, I understand now. It was Vlado Vrkes and the professor
19 Nemanja. I don't know his surname. That's his first name, but I have no
20 idea of his other name.
21 Q. How long did they speak to you for?
22 A. Maybe ten minutes. You climbed up a couple of steps, and they'd
23 ask you this and that, and that was all.
24 Q. Do you recall the nature of what they said?
25 A. They were saying that we would no longer have time to have coffee
1 at Mindari [phoen]. I didn't know what Mindari were. And I asked what
2 were Mindari. You won't be having a fine time and drinking coffee. I
3 said, "Well, what's the point of life then?" Anyway, that's what they
4 asked. Nothing much.
5 Q. During your five-day detention, were you ever told why you were
6 being detained?
7 A. Well, your question why? I don't know why. Either because we are
8 Muslims or because we did something wrong. Maybe that nation or that
9 religion did something wrong in the past and this was some sort of
10 revenge. I don't know. God knows. I'm no politician. That's all I
12 Q. During the time you were at the sports hall, were you provided
13 with food and water?
14 A. We got everything, food from neighbours in the villages. My wife
15 brought it while I was there and my son, normally. Maybe we were fed
16 better than if we were at home in our own houses. Honestly.
17 Q. Did the authorities provide any food or water?
18 A. Oh, no, no.
19 Q. Was anyone mistreated at the sports hall?
20 A. While I was there, no. Afterwards I don't know. I left a month
21 earlier to go to Manjaca.
22 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that you were taken to the SUP from the
23 sports hall. Do you recall the date, the approximate date that you were
24 taken to the --
25 A. I said from the very first not to ask me about dates.
1 Q. Okay. Do you know who you were taken to the SUP with?
2 A. A taxi driver, Selman Himzo, Karlic Bedo, Bahtic -- anyway, it was
3 Bahtic. I've forgotten his name now. And I know that we were taken to
4 Hasan Kikic -- no, not Hasan Kikic. To Branko's, in a Niva. And there
5 were several investigators. When the war started, there were 20 of them.
6 But at that time there was just Branko Sobot, so I was through very
8 Q. How long did your interrogation with Sobot last?
9 A. Well, I can say it was less than an hour.
10 Q. Were you mistreated during your interrogation?
11 A. Not that much. When this one took me under the steps in the
12 police building, then whoever felt like it would slap me or hit me, but
13 not while I was at Sobot's. But I saw that this was no joke. He had
14 bayonets, then a club in a glass case, and I realised what was it all
15 about. But what could I do?
16 Q. Mr. Muhic --
17 A. And whoever came along, he would hit me.
18 Q. After you left Mr. Sobot's office after an hour, where were you
19 taken? Were you taken downstairs to under the stairwell?
20 A. Yes, under the staircase. From Sobot's office down there.
21 Q. Did you have to wait down there for approximately an hour?
22 A. I waited until they were through with everyone, and then we were
23 taken back to Hasan Kikic.
24 Q. Whilst you were downstairs under the stairwell for this
25 approximately an hour's time, what did you observe?
1 A. I saw suddenly somebody saying, "Let's go. Let's go. Here comes
2 the boss." And upstairs they were having a meeting and I was under the
3 stairwell and they had to pass by. And then I didn't know who was in
4 charge, but then they said, "Here's Basara. Here comes Basara." And then
5 they ran upstairs. And then as someone passed, they would say, "Are you
6 there too, brother?" And then the priest Milos came by and he said, "That
7 serves you right, you balijas." He mistreated me most. And I was on good
8 terms with his brother. And he liked to have a drink or two, and that's
9 why he said that to me.
10 Q. You said a moment ago that you were taken then back to the Hasan
11 Kikic school. You hadn't been there before, had you? You had been at the
12 sports hall.
13 A. That's right, yes.
14 Q. When you arrived at the Hasan Kikic school, who did you see
16 A. I saw Dr. Sabanovic. I didn't even know that your eye could be 5
17 centimetres out of the socket. Then Ahmet Paun. I knew more or less all
18 of them.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, is it convenient for us to have a
20 break at this point?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Ms. Sutherland. We will have a break of
22 15 minutes or so, reconvening at quarter to 4.00.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.26 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 3.49 p.m.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Sutherland, you may proceed. Thank you.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Muhic, can you try and relax as much as you possibly can. You
5 may be a little nervous at testifying at the International Criminal
6 Tribunal. Can you please listen to the question that I ask you and answer
7 only that question. And if I need any additional information from you, I
8 will ask you a follow-up question.
9 A. May I ask you to make a correction, please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Muhic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned only one hall, the big
12 one, the municipal one, that they didn't beat people there. But in Hasan
13 Kikic, there was beating. In Hasan Kikic, they did beat us. And in the
14 big hall while I was there they did not.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Muhic.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. How long did you stay at the Hasan Kikic school?
18 A. I stayed there briefly, and I found others already there. So only
19 three or four days, something like that.
20 Q. Where were you taken from that school?
21 A. From that school, a truck was brought first and a second was
22 filled up next to the police station. There were two truck. One was a
23 Deutz, the one I was in. The other was of a different make. I just know
24 I was in the Deutz. And then we filled it up and went to Manjaca.
25 Q. How many persons were on each truck approximately?
1 A. In mine there must have been 70 men.
2 Q. Were you able to sit down in the truck?
3 A. Well, hardly. We stood like sardines. But you always find a
4 spot. So some people sat down, but some didn't. Until the end of the
5 trip they couldn't sit down.
6 Q. Was the truck open or covered?
7 A. Afterwards they tied it all up, all around, and that is how we
8 travelled. It took quite a long time to get to Manjaca.
9 Q. Were you able to see out of the covering at all?
10 A. No, you can't see anything.
11 Q. Did the trucks go directly from the Hasan Kikic school to Manjaca
13 A. Yes. These two, yes.
14 Q. What time in the -- what time of the day did you leave the Hasan
15 Kikic school?
16 A. We set off, I think, between 9.00 and 10.00. We got there towards
17 evening, though the distance in kilometres is small.
18 Q. Did you -- did the truck stop anywhere along the way?
19 A. Four or five times. Next to a store or a cafe, though we went
20 mostly through the woods. So mostly shops. Then they would stop there,
21 have a drink, whereas we were waiting, boiling.
22 Q. Can you describe the conditions in the trucks during this time.
23 A. The conditions were such that we almost could have said goodbye
24 forever, almost. It was very hot that day. The tarpaulin was very
25 tight. It's as if we were in a carriage for livestock. There was no
1 water, nothing. We only just managed to arrive there.
2 Q. You said that you arrived there towards evening. Were you allowed
3 to get off the truck as soon as you arrived at the camp?
4 A. We waited for a while, about half an hour, I think. And then
5 there were some young people there. Who knows what could have happened.
6 They started behaving as if we were tourists. I was among the older
7 people. So then I also said, "You're not tourists. Calm down." But they
8 were saying, "We can't stand it any more." And then they started hitting
9 over the canvas. And then if anyone was leaning against the canvas with
10 his nose, he would get a blow. And then when it was opened -- shall I go
12 Q. Just pause there.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him go ahead.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. Just one question. When you said "they," are you talking about
18 the detainees in the bus -- in the truck?
19 A. When I was saying that they should calm down, they wanted
20 immediately to ask for water and various other things, and that's why I
21 said that they were behaving as if they were tourists. And then they saw
22 what was in store for them.
23 Q. At some point were you ordered off the truck?
24 A. Well, after about half an hour. Get off. People were jumping
25 out. Those they need were separated, six of them I think. I was among
1 the last, and another waiter known as Sime, surname Bahtic, and then they
2 separated six of them. And a superior -- his name was mentioned. I think
3 it was Nemanja. I didn't know him very well or in the hall, but I
4 remember his name being used. And he would say, "Come on Zenga." And
5 when he said "Zenga," I peeped around and there were only the two of us
6 left. And I stood -- I turned round looking. I didn't know who Zenga
7 was. And then he pointed a finger, and he said, "You, you." And he
8 jumped off and I was told to stop, and that's how it was. So beatings
9 started straight away. Somebody called Apac, I think his name is Elvedin
10 Hadziahmaetovic, they first fixed him. He was first among the six to die.
11 Then Jasko Jelecevic. Only two of them had handcuffs. And then Pasic
12 Marinko Faik, and after Faik was Neron, and then Biscevic Haris, and then
13 this Sime Bahtic, that they called Zenga. With poles, with handles, broom
14 handles and boots. I have saw them all go, but I was told to stop. And
15 there was a small covered truck belonging to the Emis enterprise. As far
16 as I could see, they were transporting food. And then they loaded all of
17 them into this small truck. But then things slowed down. These passed
18 away. And then Kajtez was last, and they said, "Kajtez, is it all over?"
19 And then he said, "The balija is still showing signs of life." And then
20 they loaded them all onto this small truck. And I was told to --
21 Q. Mr. Muhic, if you can just pause there. You have given a lot of
22 information to the Court, and I want to take it in stages, the event that
23 you witnessed -- that you have just told the Court about.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You mentioned six men, Bahtic; Jasmin Jelecevic; Medin
1 Hadziahmetovic, called Hapac. You mentioned a man called Neron. What was
2 Neron's family name, if you know?
3 A. Mehadzic.
4 Q. You also mentioned Haris Biscevic and --
5 A. Haris Biscevic, yes.
6 Q. And Faik Pasic.
7 A. Pasic, there must be six of them. Shall I now list them all in
9 Q. No. We have just listed the six men?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was the ethnicity of these men?
12 A. They were all of Bosnian ethnicity.
13 Q. You said two of them had handcuffs. Which two were these?
14 A. Hadziahmetovic and Jelecevic, who were closest to this small truck
15 and they were the first to be loaded onto it. But they didn't have
16 handcuffs -- the others -- the others didn't have handcuffs.
17 Q. Mr. Muhic, what was Mr. Bahtic's occupation before the war?
18 A. He was a waiter, in a socially owned catering establishment.
19 Q. Mr. Jelecevic?
20 A. He would work with a small van transporting fruit and vegetables,
21 and the same applies to Hadziahmetovic.
22 Q. Neron Mehadzic?
23 A. Neron Mehadzic? He was a bus conductor in Sana Trans company.
24 Q. Haris Biscevic?
25 A. Haris Biscevic? I think -- I'm a bit confused about him because
1 another one got killed, his twin brother. As for Haris, I think they all
2 followed in their father's and mother's footsteps, and I think they were
3 all dentists. I know Buca who survived and he's a dentist.
4 Q. Fajko Pasic?
5 A. Fajko? He worked in construction. He was a construction worker.
6 Q. When they were taken off the truck, where were they taken -- who
7 took them away from the truck?
8 A. The persons who -- the person who escorted the lorry got them
9 off. And we thought that in each group, in each convoy, five of them
10 would be designated, and they were there too, since Fajko wasn't
11 designated, so he started beating them. So he started doing and spat at
12 one of them and then they separated him. He was the third one.
13 Q. Mr. Muhic, you said that they were being beaten. Who were they
14 being beaten by?
15 A. Well, a group of three or four men against one person. But no one
16 was killed by a bullet from a -- with a weapon. And I know that someone
17 who participated in this, this person who broke my arm, it's a neighbour
18 of mine, Milan Camber, he participated in that and I know this person.
19 And I know a person whose surname is Kajtez. And then I asked --
20 Q. Approximately how many persons were there in total surrounding
21 these detainees?
22 A. Well, about 20.
23 Q. How were they dressed?
24 A. In various ways. They were wearing this and that. But there
25 weren't that many policemen -- I didn't see any policemen. But those who
1 were wearing mixed clothes -- well, they were wearing all sorts of
3 Q. Were any of them dressed in military uniform?
4 A. I don't know if this -- these mixed clothes were military
5 uniforms. Yes.
6 Q. Were they armed?
7 A. Well, mixed or camouflage uniforms, yes. They had weapons, but
8 they didn't kill anyone by using a weapon.
9 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that they were beaten until they passed
10 away. What kind of objects were they being beaten with?
11 A. Well, to be precise, there were these sort of sticks and cramp
12 holders, things that you use in construction. And then parts of spades,
13 those sorts of implements, those sort of items.
14 Q. Yes. You did mention wooden sticks a moment ago. How long did
15 the beating last?
16 A. I didn't mention sticks. You know -- I didn't mention any
17 truncheons. You know what a truncheon is. These were the holders of
18 spades. But yes, you could call it a sort of wooden stick. That's
19 possible too. Let's move on.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Sutherland asked you how long did the
21 beatings last.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It lasted about 20 minutes. About
23 20 minutes. Because no one had a watch. They'd taken our watches away in
24 Sanski Most, and they took everything else away too.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Where were you when you observed these beatings?
2 A. Always at the back of the lorry. We were always there, in one
3 spot. We didn't dare look anywhere.
4 Q. How far away were these six detainees and the soldiers -- sorry,
5 the men beating the detainees. How far away were they from you?
6 A. There were three of them about 20 -- and then there was a circle
7 and three of them were closer to us, not even 15 metres away. That was a
8 semicircle. So they were a little closer.
9 Q. So how far away -- how far was the person furthest from you in
10 feet or metres?
11 A. 20 metres at the most from the lorry and from where I was.
12 Q. Who was the person -- who was the detainee closest to you?
13 A. It was near the small lorry. Hapac was there and Jasko Jelecevic
14 and Fajko Pasic. Because they were the first near the small lorry. They
15 were sort of beside it.
16 Q. Did you recognise any of these men, besides Camber, who was doing
17 the beating?
18 A. Yes. This other person, I didn't know him. I don't know him.
19 But they called him Kajtez. That was the surname they used -- they said,
20 "Kajtez, is it finished? Have you finished?"
21 Q. And what did Kajtez -- how did Kajtez respond?
22 A. He said, "Well, he's still showing signs of life. Damn his balija
24 Q. How far was Kajtez standing away from you?
25 A. Well, he was where the victim was standing.
1 Q. Approximately how far in metres or feet was Kajtez from you?
2 A. Well, 20 metres. It shouldn't be more than that.
3 Q. Could you describe --
4 A. From the lorry. Yes, Kajtez and this victim I mentioned.
5 Q. Can you describe Kajtez for the Court, please.
6 A. Not very tall. He had a long beard, quite lively. He had lively
7 movements. That's how I would describe him.
8 Q. What sort of build did he have?
9 A. Well, he wasn't a very big man. He was quite broad and average.
10 He wasn't too fat. He wasn't fat.
11 Q. What colour hair did he have?
12 A. Black, black hair. But he had ribbon around here and all sorts
13 of things up here. I know that his hair was black, not grey like mine.
14 Q. Approximately how old did you think he was?
15 A. Well, as old as this neighbour of mine who knew him well. Yes.
16 Q. Who was your neighbour that knew Kajtez well, and how old was he?
17 A. He went to school with him. So I asked him, "Who is this person
18 called Kajtez?" He said, "Why?" I didn't answer. I said, "Who is he?"
19 He said, "He went to school. We used to call him Kajtez Danilusko. And
20 his nickname was Chetnik, even when we went to school together." I'd say
21 about 40 years old, something like that. This neighbour of mine is 40
22 years old and they went to school together, Nedzad Mujagic.
23 Q. You mention a moment ago that when these six men had been beaten
24 to death, they were then put into one of the trucks. Did you see what
25 happened after that to these six men?
1 A. When I was told, "Go over there, balija, where your other people
2 have gone," because that stable of mine is very close to the command,
3 right up to the command gate. That's where we were, and that's what I was
4 told. And after that, I was met by this neighbour of mine. He put my
5 arms up like this against the lorry and made me spread my legs. He beat
6 me as much as he wanted to and then he let me go. And then in the stable
7 I came across another group. They were fighting those who had gone down
9 Q. We will deal with that in a moment. Just getting back to when
10 these eight men were beaten to death.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecutor's
12 Exhibit P781.2.
13 A. Yes. Six, six. Not eight.
14 Q. I'm sorry. I meant to say six.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry. Don't put it on the ELMO.
16 Q. Mr. Muhic.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you know Inspector Vujanic?
19 A. Vujanic. He signed -- registered cars. When you went to have
20 your car registered, he was the person who would sign the documents.
21 That's why I knew him.
22 Q. How long had you known him for prior to the war?
23 A. Well, for as long as he was employed in the SUP, because I had a
24 car and if nothing else, every year I had to go to the SUP and register
25 the car. And once he had signed this, that would be it. You could drive
1 your car.
2 Q. You've mentioned already a policeman that you knew for a number of
3 years called Mico Krunic.
4 A. Yes. He's a well-known person. Everyone knows him, just like
5 this other person --
6 Q. Did you know --
7 A. -- Whom you just mentioned.
8 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Vrucinic?
9 A. Vrucinic, yes. He was also born in Kutilivac. That's not far
10 from where I am. But I didn't know him that well.
11 Q. Did you see either of these three men when you were standing on
12 the truck witnessing the six men being beaten to death?
13 A. I saw Vujanic around the truck. I saw someone called Njunja
14 around the truck, the late Njunja. And all these main people, mostly when
15 they were getting us into the truck, the tarpaulin was raised because they
16 were loading the truck, and that's why I saw them there.
17 Q. So you saw them at the SUP building before you went to Manjaca; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Not in the SUP building.
20 Q. So I presume --
21 A. Outside. In front of the building by the truck, and they were
22 regulating everything, deciding how to do everything and prepare for
24 Q. When the truck arrived at Manjaca and you witnessed the beating of
25 these six men, did you see either -- any of those three men that have just
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 been mentioned to you, that is, Vujanic, Mico Krunic, or Vrucinic, did
2 you see either of those three men there that day?
3 A. No, no. I didn't see Njunja or the other men you have mentioned.
4 Njunja escorted convoys too until he died. It was all one convoy.
5 Q. Did you know Njunja's first name and family name?
6 A. Yes. In the town everyone calls people by using their nicknames.
7 I knew everyone. I don't know their names. I wasn't that interested in
8 it because people had nicknames. So I'm not interested now either. I
9 didn't want to ask people about this. For me he was Njunja and he
10 remained Njunja.
11 Q. If we move back to Manjaca, when you were ordered to leave the
12 truck. You said that you were beaten by a man called Camber.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What instrument was Camber beating you with?
15 A. That's what I said in Sanski Most too. He also used this
16 implement, as in the case of the people who were killed. But he didn't
17 kill me. But he beat me. He beat my arms. He beat me on the back. I
18 had to position myself like this, with my arms against the lorry. He beat
19 me up. They told him -- the others told him that "If you don't know how
20 to beat, why are you beating him? Let him go." And he let me go, and
21 that's what happened.
22 Q. Did you receive any injuries to your fingers?
23 A. Well, on my body and on my fingers too, on the soles of my feet,
24 all over my body. I was wounded all over my body. But when I went down
25 to the stables, I thought I've got through. But when I got there -- well,
1 it was -- you could imagine. And afterwards it was, "Ciao, balija,
2 ciao." We covered ourselves with the blanket. "Well, dammit, we
4 Q. Mr. Muhic, just going back to when you were beaten before you went
5 into Manjaca camp, do you recall what instrument you had been beaten
7 A. They used the spade handles mostly. Or if you know what a "glog"
8 is. Well, it's something that had been prepared, something made of wood.
9 And they used this to beat us with. It was something with thorns on it.
10 Q. Mr. Muhic.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you -- was every finger on one of your hands broken by
14 A. Well, yes, naturally. Everyone in Sanski Most knows that I'd
15 never been beaten, nothing had been broken up until then.
16 Q. And were two fingers of the other hand also broken when you were
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Can you please hold your hands up for the Court like this,
20 Mr. Muhic.
21 A. That's all I can do. I can't move this one in this direction. I
22 can't move the other one in that direction. There you have.
23 Q. That's the most you're able to straighten your fingers; is that
25 A. Well, I can't straighten them any more. I wish I could, but I
1 can't use this hand to take -- to hold the wheel.
2 Q. You mentioned that after you were beaten you came past the command
3 post of Manjaca camp. Did you see any soldiers standing at the command
5 A. At the command? All the other soldiers were down in the stable,
6 and I went down there. If I'd been going a little more slowly, perhaps
7 that all would have been finished. I got there when there was this
8 beating takes place. I saw a man there. And he was all bloodied.
9 Q. Mr. Muhic.
10 A. And I realised --
11 Q. Were any soldiers standing at the front of the command post when
12 you passed it to enter the camp?
13 A. To enter the camp? Well, this is how it was: They had all left
14 the command. They'd gone down to the stable. That's where I came across
15 a lot of soldiers, down there, yes.
16 Q. You said that the soldiers had left the command post. Were they
17 there during the beating of these six men?
18 A. Well, yes, they remained there. Those soldiers remained there.
19 As far as I know, they didn't go down. I thought everything was over.
20 And as there were soldiers down there and they were beating people --
21 well, at the end they said, "Ciao, balijas."
22 Q. Do you recall if any of them were officers, these soldiers that
23 remained at the command post?
24 A. Well, I couldn't see anything there. I couldn't look around. So
25 as they beat people, well, they put some hay down on the ground and
1 everyone had to lie down on the -- on their stomach. If someone hadn't
2 been dealt with, he'd be dealt with. And that's how it happened.
3 Q. You're talking about the stable now, are you?
4 A. Yes. Yes, where I slept.
5 Q. Were you given that day or any other day any medical treatment for
6 the injuries that you sustained to your fingers by the camp authorities?
7 A. No. But they suggested that I be released, that I be allowed to
8 go home. And with this doctor, Sabanovic, there was also -- I don't know
9 if he was a nurse. What's his name? But he was a Serb. And with Meho
10 and Sabanovic, well, they thought they should release me, but I didn't go
11 home. I don't know what happened.
12 Q. What date were you released from the Manjaca camp?
13 A. I think that was on the 14th of November. And the second group
14 came, a young group, in a month's time, and my son was in that group. I
15 joked. I said, "You'll follow me in one month's time exactly." And then
16 he said, "How is that, father?" And then they escorted me to one gate and
17 then to the command and he said, "How that, father?" And I said, "Well,
18 your father knows everything." So it was exactly one month later they
19 followed us to Karlovac.
20 Q. Mr. Muhic, if we can just go back to the day that you arrived.
21 Were there any other detainees in the Manjaca camp when your group arrived
23 A. We found only a few men from Grabska near Doboj. They were
24 completing the construction of the camp. They came from a place near
25 Doboj. I think there may have been 10 to 15 of them. They were tending
1 the cattle when they finished the fence, and they milked the cattle. And
2 I would give them a cigarette for a litre of milk, and that is how it
4 Q. Were you joined by any other non-Serbs?
5 A. Croats came together with me. Then with me there were three Serbs
6 in the camp. They broke the hand of one of them, and he wasn't given any
7 kind of treatment. And Branko and I went to Karlovac together, and he was
8 given a cast. Shall I go on talking? I can tell you what happened to him
10 Q. No. We will get to that in a moment. Did anybody -- did any
11 other non-Serbs from any other municipalities join you in the Manjaca
13 A. From the municipality -- let me think. There's the leather
14 factory where -- further from Celinac a group of Croats came.
15 Q. Did anyone come from the municipality of Kljuc?
16 A. From Kljuc, they came from Stara Gradiska. They were taken there,
17 to Stara Gradiska, to a prison there, a former prison. There were about
18 200 of them who came later. We arrived a little before them, because IFOR
19 took over that place for their base. They looked terrible, nothing like
20 human beings. They were all beaten up.
21 Q. Was the group from Kljuc -- where were they detained?
22 A. They were detained in my stable, Kljuc, Sanski Most, and some
23 loners from Doboj, from Derventa. They just happened to be in that same
24 stable, like this Branko who was a Serb from Doboj. He had tried to
25 escape the war. His father-in-law was a Croat. He hid in Slavonia. They
1 captured him over there and they brought him to Manjaca. That is how it
3 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that they broke his arm and it was put
4 in a cast.
5 A. Yes. Night had fallen, and two or three Muslims came very late.
6 They were brought in late. And he was the fourth. And they asked his
7 name -- their names, Smajo, for example, and when his turn came, he
8 said, "Branko Stojkovic, what are you?" He said, "A Serb." And then this
9 one said, "What kind of a Serb are you, you motherfucker?" And then they
10 beat him and broke his arm. The nurse was there. He was a Serb, in
11 Sabanovic's presence however. And I think they put a cast on his arm and
12 he didn't take it off until we got to Karlovac. That was what happened to
13 Branko. And there were another two Serbs, but I had no contact with
14 them. He was in a different row. But I spoke to Branko a lot, and he
15 told me everything about him. That's how I know.
16 Q. Did you witness any other person being mistreated?
17 A. During the night there would be a call-out, and whoever was called
18 out he'd know what to expect. It was terrible. That's how it was.
19 Q. How often did the mistreatment occur?
20 A. Every night people were called out, at least five or six people.
21 Q. What was their condition when they returned?
22 A. They were broken up. It depends on whether you're lucky or not.
23 Omer Filipovic was not lucky. Omer didn't return. Bender returned, Esad
24 Bender, and he lived until 7.00 in the morning. He died in the stable,
25 and the other one out there. And then we dug out a new hole that we used
1 for garbage, and that is where we put Omer Filipovic, Senad, and an
2 Osmancevic. I've forgotten his name now. We called him Ruski. These
3 others somehow survived, but Omer succumbed immediately and this other one
4 at 7.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Trbojevic.
6 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. But in
7 the transcript there's an error in line 18. The witness said that the
8 people from Kljuc that came to Manjaca were all depressed. They didn't
9 look like human beings. In the transcript it says that they were all
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Muhic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have heard what Mr. Trbojevic has just
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Trbojevic can interpret these things
16 in two ways. I was saying that they came both depressed and beaten up.
17 Of course, if they were depressed they were depressed because they were
18 beaten. That's how it was, Mr. Trbojevic.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Is that enough, Mr. Trbojevic?
20 You may proceed, Ms. Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Muhic, did any international organisations visit Manjaca?
23 A. As far as the media are concerned and international organisations,
24 let me tell you like this: Whoever wanted to come had to announce his
25 arrival in Banja Luka. That is what they told us, the people from the Red
1 Cross. And once they announced their arrival, then they would see what we
2 were eating. Then they would slaughter three calves. And this meat would
3 be put on the table --
4 Q. Do you recall approximately when -- the first time the Red Cross
5 visited the camp?
6 A. Well, I do know it was about a month and a half that I got plenty
7 of bread. The important thing is that one has bread and water, and that's
8 how you can gain weight. That's the important thing.
9 Q. During the first month --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me try and understand, because I
11 can't follow a hundred per cent here.
12 Do you mean to say that after your arrival in Manjaca it was only
13 a month and a half later that you started getting bread and water and
14 started gaining weight again?
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the Red Cross arrived.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And at Manjaca we would get
17 warm bread, coming from Sveta Klara in Zagreb, the large municipal bakery
18 and when there was bread, everything was fine. And more -- later on kiwis
19 and chocolate too.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. Mr. Muhic, I want to deal with the period before the Red Cross
22 arrived. So you've just testified, I think, that the Red Cross arrived
23 maybe a month, a month and a half after you arrived in the camp. Is that
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And you got warm bread and chocolates and kiwis. I want to deal
2 with the period from when you were first detained in Manjaca on the 6th of
3 June up until the time that the Red Cross first arrived. What sort of
4 food were you given during that period of time on a daily basis?
5 A. Well, it was like this: A loaf of bread would be cut into 45 to
6 50 pieces. It's like a matchbox, but thinner than a matchbox, but the
7 size of a matchbox, but very thin. Sometimes there wouldn't be anything.
8 But you still had to get up and pass through the kitchen and wait in line
9 for everyone to pass by and then go back into the stable in line. That's
10 all you could do. And -- shall I continue?
11 Q. In --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, continue.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] What sort of -- yes,
15 please continue. The question was: What sort of food were you given
16 during the first month, month and a half in your stay in Manjaca? Today
17 you've told us about the loaf of bread which was cut into 40 pieces -- 45
18 to 50 pieces. What else were you given by way of food?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were given some lentils,
20 something -- but I never touched it. There was some bacon too. I ate
21 everything before and now, so that -- there are people who wouldn't eat
22 bacon. "Give it to me," I said. So I did a bit better than they. I
23 fared a bit better. And as for --
24 MS. SUTHERLAND:
25 Q. Mr. Muhic, was it before or after the Red Cross arrived that you
1 were provided with bacon?
2 A. Before the Red Cross, of course. You'd get this piece -- tiny
3 piece of bread and a piece of bacon. But I would have more bacon than
4 bread, because they wouldn't give me bread. They would give me bacon.
5 Shall I continue? But again, linked to the same subject. Shall I? Can
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, provided you keep it short.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you about the media and
9 the announcement. If you want -- if they wanted to show that they were
10 feeding us well, they would slaughter three calves, three calves, so six
11 halves. And then in the kitchen they would be moving around cooking until
12 the delegation arrived. They were dealing with the meat. And as soon as
13 the delegation leaves, they would take back those six halves and take it
14 to the command and have a good feast. And this was welcome by the
15 command. But they were telling them that that was what they were feeding
16 us with, but none of us dared say anything. We didn't even see it. Only
17 for as long as the delegation was there.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... more data from
19 the witness on what kind of food he was receiving, what they were
20 receiving. Please proceed to the next question.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Or next aspect.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Mr. Muhic, how much did you weigh before you were detained by the
25 Serb authorities? How many kilogrammes did you weigh when you first went
1 to Manjaca?
2 A. I'm ashamed to say. I'm ashamed to say. I had 104 kilos and I'm
3 just over a metre high. But in that one month I dropped to -- not one
4 month, a month and a half. Because the Red Cross came. There were the
5 scales and everything. And my first weighing showed 55 kilos. So then
6 the bread started coming. I never steal. We didn't steal from one
7 another. But once the bread came, when I had -- had had enough, I was
8 weighed again and I had 72 kilos. I said, "Is that possible?" And they
9 said, "It is. Look." And it was only a month after the first weighing.
10 I was doing better than a bull that they feed to gain weight. So I made
11 up for the loss very quickly.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just eating bread.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough.
15 Ms. Sutherland, next question, please.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. Mr. Muhic, do you know who was in charge of Manjaca camp?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That means the person's name.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion -- I may be wrong
20 regarding the rank. They called him Lieutenant Colonel Bogdan Popovic --
21 Bozidar. Bozidar Popovic. His deputy was a waiter from Banja Luka, a
22 policeman known as Spaga. We called him Spaga.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Were Popovic or Spaga ever present during mistreatment of
1 A. Well, Spaga was present, and he actually did some beating. But
2 Popovic less. He didn't expose himself much. I don't think he was
3 interested in beating people or anything else. He himself didn't know
4 what to do with himself. One could see that he didn't enjoy being camp
5 commander. It was visible that he didn't enjoy it.
6 Q. Did you ever see Spaga with any lists of detainees?
7 A. He was always carrying lists and calling people out and beating
8 people as much as he liked. Each and every one of the detainees that were
9 at Manjaca will tell you that. But the one who beat most as a policeman
10 was Bulatovic. He was a driver in the brewery. He was really cruel. And
11 another one called Zoki or Zaki, not the Zoki that used to play football.
12 This one was good. There were two Zokas, Zorans. One was a good guy and
13 the other was a bad guy.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
15 Exhibit 667.
16 A. What do I have to find here?
17 Q. Mr. Muhic, when you were spoken to before you gave evidence today
18 by members of the Office of the Prosecutor, you reviewed this list, did
19 you not?
20 A. Yes. Go on, please.
21 Q. You -- can you just have a look at that list once again.
22 A. Yes. I'm looking at it. Let's go on.
23 Q. Approximately how many of these 105 people that are on the list
24 were on the same truck as you were on the way to Manjaca?
25 A. Well, did I encircle this? I did or not? Capic? Stipe. I
1 didn't make the circle. But it's all correct. Filipovic Omer -- yes. I
2 got up to some 70 that were here in my truck. Yes. Go on.
3 Q. That document has -- the B/C/S version of that document hasn't
4 been marked by you, but did you tell members of the Office of the
5 Prosecutor -- did you tell them the number of each of the people that were
6 on your truck? And it was approximately 60 to 70 people. Is that
8 A. Yes, yes. I see that I didn't make these circles. But whoever
9 made these circles made them for the same names that I did.
10 Q. I want to go through several of these names with you. If I can
11 say the number and the name, if you can give me the occupation of that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Number 3, Husein Makic what was his occupation?
15 A. He was a forester, and now he's chief forester in Sanski Most.
16 Q. I don't need you to tell us the occupation now. I want you to
17 tell us the occupation that they held in 1992.
18 Number 4, Dr. Enes Sabanovic?
19 A. He was always a physician, and a really good physician.
20 Q. Number 7, Mehmed Audic?
21 A. Mehmed Audic, he's a farmer. If he's from Kutilivac, he's a
22 farmer. What else could he be.
23 Q. What was the occupation of number 11, Enver Smailovic?
24 A. He was somebody working in an office. He has a law -- an economic
25 degree, and he worked as an employee in the public utility company.
1 Q. Number 28, Ismet Veletanlic.
2 A. Ismet Veletanlic, he was a carpenter and a glazier and he worked
3 on the maintenance as a repair for the Hasan Kikic school.
4 Q. Number 29, Ivan Ivankovic?
5 A. Ivan Ivankovic, he comes from Kljevci, a farmer. He went to
6 Batkovici. That's as much as I know.
7 Q. Number 35, Fikret Malovcic?
8 A. Fikret Malovcic, he used to sing, as his uncle did.
9 Q. Sakib Seferovic?
10 A. Sakib Seferovic, he has a degree of some sort, a university
11 degree. He's now working doing the job that Vujanic used to do issuing
12 driving licences.
13 Q. Mr. Muhic, all of the people that I have just gone through with
14 you, they were on your truck; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were any of them to your knowledge involved in resisting in any
17 way at all?
18 A. Well, you see, as far as the town itself is concerned, not a
19 single bullet was fired, if you will believe me. Not a single bullet was
20 fired. But someone would go over there, start shooting, and another one
21 over there, and they'd say, "Look what the Green Berets are doing," as if
22 we were naive and knew nothing. Not a single bullet was fired in town.
23 I'm not saying that up there there was no resistance. In a village there
24 was resistance, and they arrested five or six Serb officer over there and
25 took them to Bihac, but they're still alive and well. The officers are
1 alive, those who were taken to Bihac and beaten up, each other, each
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher, I'm finished with that document. If that
4 can be taken away from the witness, please.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Muhic, you mentioned a village where there was
6 resistance. Can you tell us the name of that village.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Vrhpolje. Yes.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Mr. Muhic, finally I want to ask you what property you owned in
10 1992. Did you own land of approximately 100 square metres -- 1.000 square
12 A. Just below my house, yes. I have no other land except that. It's
13 what's called the house -- the land on which the house is built. I have
14 no other land.
15 Q. Did you own a three-storey house of approximately 300 square
17 A. I still have it today. Because a Serb from Bihac lived there, and
18 he looked after it and left it to me intact. I wanted to thank him. A
19 machine of his was left behind. It's still there. It's used to make
20 fishing equipment. His name was Zdravko Curguz, and I'd like to give it
21 back to him. I'd be glad to.
22 Q. Did you own a restaurant that seated approximately 50 people, and
23 if so was it a successful business in 1992?
24 A. I was working well, until the very last evening. There was a
25 birthday and business was still better when we were all together. And
1 Serbs and Croats and everyone. That was the life. No one can say that it
2 wasn't. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Muhic.
4 A. And I had a tent too.
5 Q. Mr. Muhic.
6 A. With some ten tables. So times four, so you can work it out.
7 Q. Did you also -- the contents of your house. You said that you've
8 received your house back. Have you received the contents of your house,
9 all the furniture and personal effects that you had in the house in 1992?
10 A. I didn't find anything. There's an old sofa -- I don't think that
11 this Zdravko could have slept on it. It will do until I get some money.
12 That will come too.
13 Q. Mr. Muhic, did you also own industrial refrigerators; yes or no?
14 A. I had made by Ledo. I had a brother-in-law in Banja Luka. He was
15 a boss of drivers. And he would always come. And this driver, he's now
16 in America. His name is Majo Dzigumovic, and it was linked to Zagreb, to
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, Ms. Sutherland. One moment,
19 Ms. Sutherland. I don't know whether the question that Ms. Sutherland put
20 to you arrived, as it was -- as it was -- as it was described to us here.
21 But Ms. Sutherland asked you whether you also owned industrial
23 A. Those are smaller ones. Yes, industrial freezers. Of course, I
24 had a small one to keep my meat in, my own food in, yes. I had the small
25 refrigerators. I don't have them now. I brought a refrigerator from
2 Q. Mr. Muhic.
3 A. I was told that I didn't have any left over there.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Mr. Muhic, if you can just answer yes if that's correct, the list
6 of things I'm going to read to you that you owned in 1992. We've said
7 your land, your house, the restaurant, the industrial refrigerators, two
8 poker machines, a pool table, and a football machine. You also owned a
9 shop that you had in summer in front of the house selling carpets, and
10 within that shop in 1992 there were approximately 50 or so carpets.
11 A. Yes. A billiard table.
12 Q. You also owned a Mercedes 200 motor vehicle and a small car.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down, please.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: I apologise.
15 Q. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes. But in those days I had a shop, and I had stocks which I
17 hadn't sold, and then I opened a restaurant called Ribar. So I had
18 those 50 carpets stored. They were not on sale any more. I no longer had
19 a shop. So that is right, what you're saying. I can't say that I isn't.
20 As for looting, I didn't see it but I heard.
21 Q. Do you -- besides the land and the house, do you have any of the
22 above property left?
23 A. Nothing. Nothing remained. I only found rubbish. For ten days I
24 rummaged through it, and nothing remained.
25 Q. And since the injury that you received in Manjaca to your fingers,
1 have you been able to work?
2 A. Well, if I were able to -- I like to keep busy. I'd do what I can
3 now if I was given the opportunity, but I don't have any income. I've got
4 those four walls. But it would be better for me to work.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Muhic. I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
7 Who's going to go first?
8 Now, Mr. Muhic, listen to me. You are now going to be asked a
9 series of questions by Mr. Trbojevic, who is the co-counsel for Radoslav
10 Brdjanin. May I point out to you that Mr. Trbojevic is carrying out a
11 duty here. He has an obligation to defend his client and, therefore, to
12 put questions to you. So please, I'm telling you this because I want you
13 to answer all the questions that he puts to you unless I tell you not to.
14 But if you don't hear from me, please answer the questions that
15 Mr. Trbojevic puts to you. And the same would apply later on when you are
16 cross-examined by the other team.
17 Mr. Trbojevic, you have more or less 12 minutes before we break.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I ask something?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Muhic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to know. I've got no
21 idea about this. These statements of mine, what do they have to do with
22 Brdjanin? I don't know the man. So I'm just asking you this question. I
23 don't know him.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about Mr. Brdjanin. Don't -- you don't
25 have to worry about it. For --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please. I'm worried about myself.
2 I never said anything about Brdjanin and --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't have to worry, because no one is
4 attributing to you having said anything about or against Brdjanin. So
5 don't worry about it. But still Mr. Brdjanin's lawyer has a right to
6 cross-examine you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say anything about
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Trbojevic, please.
10 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Trbojevic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Muhic.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I'll put a few questions to you.
15 A. Go ahead.
16 Q. And I agree that what you said has nothing to do with
17 Mr. Brdjanin.
18 In your statement which you gave initially, you said that
19 officials from the Party of Democratic Action would come to your
21 A. Well, look, just as you don't know about certain things, I don't
22 know who these people were. All of a sudden Njunja didn't turn up. He
23 wasn't there for a few days. He was the president or the commander of the
24 SOS. This person wasn't there. That person wasn't there. There were no
25 Serbs. Only, Marko Macura [phoen] remained. I don't know whether they
1 were there to spy on me. He know that is better than I do. I had my
2 business. I'd have something to drink in the evening, and that's what I
3 was interested in. Nothing else interested me.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Trbojevic, it could be that my memory is failing
5 me, but I don't recall having heard the witness mention anything about the
6 persons party -- members, officials of the Party of Democratic Action
7 visiting his restaurant. There is something in the statement and not
8 precisely on the Party of Democratic Action. It's more or less on certain
9 particular individuals. But I don't recall him mentioning anything during
10 the -- the direct.
11 Did he mention anything, Ms. Korner or --
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, or Ms. Sutherland.
14 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions about
15 this subject after this answer, your.
16 Q. You --
17 A. Thank you too.
18 Q. You said you were in two halls, in two sports halls?
19 A. Yes. In one of them they beat us, but I wasn't beaten. And in
20 the other big one we weren't beaten.
21 Q. Can you tell us how many days you spent in each hall.
22 A. Well, I was there for a short time. Sabanovic, the doctor and so
23 on, they were beaten and they were there for a long time. They were in
24 the small one. I was in Hasan Kikic. And in the big one my son was
25 there. When he came after a month's time he said, "Did anything happen to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you?" I said, "Nothing." I would rather that I had been beaten than the
3 Q. Can you tell us whether that was two or three days in each --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Please. I am going to call you both to
5 order. First you, Mr. Trbojevic. You are committing the mistake that you
6 had --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, Mr. Muhic. Please listen to me. Look at
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got an answer. I've got an
11 answer for Mr. Trbojevic.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Please look at me. From now onwards, before you
13 start answering the question that Mr. Trbojevic puts to you I want you to
14 look at me and I will tell you, "Yes, go ahead." Before I tell you, "Yes,
15 go ahead," please don't answer the question.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Trbojevic, please don't jump into the next
18 question the moment -- or even before the witness has answered your
19 question. So your question, Mr. Trbojevic. I'm sorry I have to bring it
20 down to this level, but there is no other way we can deal with it.
21 Mr. Trbojevic, your question.
22 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Muhic, can you tell us, the six men you saw in Manjaca, were
24 all of them or some of them with you in the lorry?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I said, Mr. Muhic. Look at me before you start
1 answering the question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Okay.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: You can answer the question now.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Me?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fajko Pasic. Only Fajko Pasic
7 wasn't in the same lorry -- in that group.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Trbojevic.
9 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you tell us, if you know, from which parts of Sanski Most
11 were these six people?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I said wait until I give you the
13 go-ahead. Now you have the go-ahead. Please answer the question.
14 Well, Trbojevic, leave that alone.
15 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Were they from a particular area such as Mahala, or were they from
17 various parts of town?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Muhic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My neighbours. They were all my
20 neighbours. Some of them were waiters some conductors. They were all
21 neighbours. And when I gave my testimony I said, "These people who
22 understand me --" that's what I said. You don't understand me. You're a
24 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. [No interpretation]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Muhic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the centre. From the central
3 part of the town. That's right. People I knew.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: But -- one moment. Mr. Trbojevic, could you repeat
5 your question. The witness need not answer it. But we had no
6 translation, at least in the transcript. And neither in the
7 interpretation. I couldn't hear anything. What was your question?
8 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I asked the witness whether I was
9 right, if I said that these six people, whose death he saw in front of
10 Manjaca, I asked whether they were all more or less from the centre of the
11 town of Sanski Most.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And he answered from the centre. Yes.
13 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] And the witness said yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. Next question, Mr. Trbojevic, please.
15 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zecevic or Madam Fauveau. I don't know who is
18 going to conduct the cross-examination.
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And shall we break now and you start immediately
21 after? What do you prefer? You still have another five minutes. That's
22 all. But I -- probably it would be more convenient to break now.
23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it would be better
24 if I started after the break.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Okay. So that's -- yes, Ms. Korner.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, simply to say this: I have to be
2 elsewhere at 6.00. But Mr. Cayley will be replacing me for the remaining
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner, for keeping me -- the
5 Chamber informed of that. Thank you.
6 We'll reconvene in -- at half past -- half past 5.00.
7 One moment. Madam Fauveau, do you think you will finish in one
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I
10 think I will finish in an hour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.
12 --- Recess taken at 5.12 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 5.33 p.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Cayley.
15 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Muhic, you are now going to be
17 cross-examined by another lawyer, this time one of the Defence counsel for
18 General Talic.
19 Madam Fauveau, the witness is in your hands.
20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. You said just a minute ago that you had a restaurant in Sanski
25 Most and that at the beginning the Serbs also went to that restaurant. Is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes, everyone. Gypsies, all peoples.
3 Q. And at a certain point in time no one else went there apart from
4 Muslims; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. Well, a lawyer, he went there right up and to the end. Now
6 a chief of the police of the Serbian -- Sanski Most, Macura Bandzi. I
7 don't know what happened to him. There were no documents. Everyone would
8 go to my restaurant. But that stopped after a while.
9 Q. Could you mention the names of some Muslims who went to your
11 A. Well, yes, I could. But if it suits you, yes, provide you with
12 some names. That's no problem.
13 Q. Is it true that Adil Draganovic went to your restaurant?
14 A. No. He was never a guest of mine. The president of the court, he
15 didn't turn up. Why? I don't know why Adil Draganovic didn't go there.
16 He never came to have a drink, but he likes to.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor show
18 the witness his written statement of April 2000 in the Serbo-Croat
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Trbojevic.
21 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness's
22 answered when we're talking about Draganovic, it wasn't correct
23 interpreted and entered into the transcript. The witness explained that
24 if Judge Draganovic liked to have a drink and liked to have a drink for
25 free. That's a provincial expression which means that someone wants to
1 drink without paying. But he said that he didn't go to his establishment.
2 And that's not in the transcript.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Muhic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know for sure that he didn't.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you heard what Mr. Trbojevic has just said?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I agree with Trbojevic and
7 this statement.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Madam Fauveau, please put your question.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Sir, could you have a look -- it's on the second page in the
13 Serbo-Croat version. It's the last sentence. And it continues on page
14 3. And in the English version it's on page 2 and it's in the last
15 paragraph. You said: [In English] "Among the Muslim who is came to my
16 restaurant, many were SDA officials and police officers. I guess they
17 felt safe on any premises. The SDA officials included Adil Draganovic,
18 judge of the local court; Mirzet Karabeg, a lawyer working for a
19 company; Rifet Bahtic, a psychologist at the local hospital; and many
21 A. I don't know. As far as the SDA is concerned -- if it was some
22 party -- some other party, that would be possible. But the SDA, no, by no
23 means. But that was an establishment where all peoples went, all ethnic
24 groups. But when you say the SDA, that can't get by. So please ask me no
25 more questions about that. I can't accept the SDA, if they say the SDA.
1 I'm not a member of any party, and I don't remember saying that. If you
2 know what a man of the world is -- well, it doesn't matter -- for such a
3 person, it doesn't matter what the name of such a person is, what he is,
4 who he is. Nothing bothers me. If he comes back, he can be chased by
5 someone else if he's guilty of something. I have nothing to do with him.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Next question, Madam Fauveau, please.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So this person didn't go to your restaurant. But is it true that
9 this person was a member of the SDA -- or the persons whose names I have
10 read out to you, is it true that they are members of the SDA?
11 A. They could come. But how am I to know who they are? They can go
12 to the restaurants. So don't ask me who is from which party, because I
13 wasn't interested in that. And everyone had the right to go there, as I
14 previously said. Because I made no distinctions among them. They did
15 that themselves, but not me at my cafe.
16 Q. On the day of the attack in Sanski Most, you said that the
17 shelling came from Kljucka Street; is that correct?
18 A. From the right side of the -- from the right bank. And the
19 Kljucka Ulica is at the rear.
20 Q. In this part of the town, the population was mixed; is that
22 A. Yes. In that street and in that part on the right bank it was
24 Q. Later on you heard about a tragic event in which eight people died
25 as a result of a grenade that had been thrown into a house. Did you
1 personally witness this attack which was carried out against this house?
2 A. No. I couldn't see that. On the following day this was
3 especially not possible. I was already on -- at the training ground. I
4 had left my house, and I had set off. I know that there were some sort of
5 a board and there were some sort of names there. It was a sort of
6 commemorative plaque. I didn't go to see that either. I know that they
7 were buried in our cemetery and they were exhumed from a grave, but I
8 didn't go to see that, to see them in such a condition at least. And as I
9 didn't see them, I can't describe that.
10 Q. Is it true to say that it is the neighbour of these people who
11 threw the grenade into the house?
12 A. Yes, as far as I heard. Some Sergije Dobrijevic. I know him. He
13 was a civilian up until the last day. I don't know if he donned a police
14 uniform. I have no idea. But that's what I heard. I didn't see that.
15 Q. You said that there was an announcement on the radio according to
16 which all the non-Serbs had to gather in front of the driving school; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. In front of this driving school, were there any policemen, any
20 soldiers, or people of Serb nationality?
21 A. Not in front but behind, on the Kljuc-Prijedor Street, about 10
22 to 15 people -- 10 to 15 men, as I said earlier on.
23 Q. How were these Serbs dressed?
24 A. In various ways. They had mixed clothes. They had a shirt here
25 and they had cockades and some ribbons around their heads. Nothing else.
1 That's what they had.
2 Q. And then you went to a sports hall; is that correct?
3 A. From the training ground? No. The Krkojevci football stadium.
4 Q. Exactly. And at this football stadium there were Serbs there too,
5 were there not?
6 A. They were to come -- they came at dusk from the forest. As night
7 fell, then they took the women away. The men remained, and they lined up
8 around the playground at intervals of 5 metres. There were quite a lot of
9 them. And then we became afraid. There was Kudra, who was in the APC,
10 and he said, "God help us," and some people answered, some others didn't.
11 And he said, "Why are you remaining silent? Damn you, you balijas."
12 Q. These people who came to the stadium, how were they dressed?
13 A. Well, it was a sort of olive colour, and some people had black
14 clothes on. But it was mainly -- they were mainly clothes of an olive
16 Q. And Mr. Prastalo, whom you have called Kudra, how was he dressed?
17 A. I think that he was in civilian clothes. I saw him in the -- I
18 only saw him in the transporter, because we weren't allowed to raise our
19 heads. I had a look at him like this. The APC was about 20 metres from
20 me. And he was standing alone on the APC, and he is the only person I saw
21 there. He was wearing civilian clothes, a black T-shirt.
22 Q. And then you went to the sports hall; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. It took us a long time to get there -- to go there. It was
24 midnight. That was in the beginning, in the morning, when he turned up in
25 the APC. And on the APC it said, you had the words "Crni Djordje," "black
2 Q. Is it true say that once you went to the sports hall someone
3 called Spaso Cucak had a list of people who were in that hall?
4 A. Spaso Cucak in the middle of the hall. He put a table in the
5 middle of the hall. I was lying down under the handball goal. I wasn't
6 worried about anything. It was good for me, and that's where I was. And
7 then my son said, "Father, it started with the letter M." I said, "You go
8 ahead, son. I'm not very good at this. Write down both our names." And
9 that's what he did. Yes.
10 Q. Would it be correct to say that Spaso Cucak, who was also wearing
11 civilian clothes --
12 A. Yes. And he is in the council. He works now. And I see him
13 quite often, yes.
14 Q. And during your detention in the sports hall, someone came and
15 brought you food -- your wife came and brought you food; is that correct?
16 A. Yes. She brought me a roast chicken on one day, and then she did
17 the same another day. But I wasn't there. I was transferred to Hasan
18 Kikic and no one wanted to tell her this. Yes. Because I gave Sobot a
19 statement. He wanted to ask me about the cafe. I said, "Sobot, you know
20 what my job is." So I'm not very interested in politics, you know.
21 Q. While you were detained in Sanski Most, would it be correct to say
22 that your wife was in Pobrijezje?
23 A. Yes, she was in Pobrijezje, and she asked those people of mine --
24 she asked those Serbs, "Where is Sakib? Where is my Sakib?" And
25 Njunja said, "Sakib is a in safe place," and he told her that. At that
1 time I was already in Manjaca, yes. So I can say that afterwards it was
2 better for me in Manjaca than in the town during the period that the Red
3 Cross took care of us. But initially, no, it was -- you'd die of
4 starvation. I was told --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Enough. Enough. Next question, Madam Fauveau.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. When your wife came to bring you food in the sports hall, she was
9 coming from Pobrijezje, wasn't she?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You said that you were interrogated by Sobot, a police officers;
12 isn't that right?
13 A. Yes. He was that before. Then there were newcomers. During the
14 war people became lawyers and prosecutors, and I knew what they used to be
15 and now they are pretending to be something else. And this list --
16 Q. Let me put the question to you first, please. While you were
17 waiting for other people to be interrogated by Sobot, you said that you
18 heard somebody crying out that Basara was coming; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Were you able to see this person that was allegedly Basara?
21 A. Only when he passed by me. That is when I saw him for the first
22 time, and I saw that they were running upstairs and saying, "Here comes
23 our boss." Yes. And then this priest Milos provoked me a little bit.
24 And I was a great friend of his brother's. This one was a priest, and the
25 brother liked to have a drink or two. And so the brother didn't like that
1 very much. But I didn't care. This list was written by the person who
2 had accused me of feeding the SDA. He wrote this list, I'm sure. Now you
3 try and find out who wrote this list. This is not part of my statement.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Muhic, you are not answering the question and
5 nothing but the question. You are barely answering the question and a lot
6 of other thing that is have got nothing to do with the question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So Madam Fauveau, your next question. And let's
9 hope he will answer it.
10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So you did see Basara. Did you see the clothes he was wearing?
12 A. A camouflage suit, and there was a rank here.
13 Q. Had you known Basara from before?
14 A. I had not, but I had heard of him. I hadn't seen him before until
15 that day.
16 Q. This person who was saying that Basara was coming, did he mention
17 the name Basara or did he just say that their boss was coming?
18 A. Yes, he said "boss" and "chief" and all kinds of names they used
19 to refer to him.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question was a very simple one, Mr. Muhic,
21 whether his name -- that is, whether the word "Basara" was mentioned or
22 not. That was the question.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Basara, yes. Yes. I don't know any
24 other -- everyone calls him Basara, his subordinates and this one and that
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So on that occasion you heard that name being
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because on the ground floor it
4 was crowded, there were civilians and policemen that used to be policemen
5 from before and so on.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. -- Madam Fauveau, please. Thank you.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. When you were transported to Manjaca, you were transported in a
9 truck. That was a civilian truck, was it not?
10 A. Yes. It used to be owned by companies before, belonging to
11 companies, yes. They were being used, just as they used the buses.
12 Q. You spoke of a certain Mr. Bahtic. Is it correct to say that this
13 Bahtic used to fight with the Croatian army?
14 A. Yes, in the surroundings of Livno. That is why they referred to
15 him as Zenga. I learned that afterwards, yes.
16 Q. So this Bahtic was fighting with the Croats against the Serbs; is
17 that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You just mentioned an SOS unit and you said that Njunja was the
20 commander of that unit. Did you know whether Kajtez too was a member of
21 that unit?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know. But close, but I'm not sure. I'm
23 not sure.
24 Q. Do you know whether Camber was a member of that unit?
25 A. These were city boys, so you can't know. But they engaged in
1 blowing up Muslim businesses and that sort of thing, this SOS. They
2 didn't destroy mine, so they apparently liked me as a caterer. What else
3 can I say? That's how it was. But they destroyed many.
4 Q. You said that Kajtez had a ribbon round his head. Did Camber have
5 the same kind of ribbon round his head?
6 A. No. He was mostly their driver. He would drive the convoys where
7 necessary. He was a driver. He's a driver and mechanic by profession.
8 Q. How was he dressed during that transport to Manjaca?
9 A. He was wearing an olive-grey uniform, and he had two bandoliers,
10 if you know what they are. Whether there was any ammunition in them, I
11 don't know.
12 Q. You spoke of Omer Filipovic. Did you see Omer Filipovic the night
13 when he was called out together with Esad Bender?
14 A. Bender was regularly with us, but he was not. He was in the
15 isolation cell for a month, outside the stable, near the kitchen. He was
16 in that isolation cell. And then they apparently released him, and we had
17 to make it possible to be 15 metres away from us so that no one could
18 contact him. And we did so. No one could approach him. He got as far as
19 the entrance of the stable, got hold of a railing used for cattle, and he
20 was standing there, and then he was called back and he crawled back, and
21 we didn't see him again. And then that hole -- another Osmancevic and
22 Senad, Supuk and Bender. Bender died at 7.00 in the morning and
23 Filipovic passed out immediately. And then we would dig out a hole for
24 garbage. Once it was filled, we'd have to cover it up and then we would
25 dig a new one. And that's how it went. And the same applied for a
1 toilet. We'd dig a trench ten metres long, put two planks across it, fill
2 it up, as soon as it was filled with earth, then we'd have to dig out a
3 new one.
4 Q. The next day were you able to see Filipovic's body?
5 A. Only when they were loading him onto the car. He was put in a
6 blanket and driven off. And then they added Esad Bender that same day.
7 Q. Could you tell us around what time you saw those bodies put in the
9 A. Before noon.
10 Q. Could you be more specific? Was it very early in the morning or a
11 little later on?
12 A. About mid-morning. After breakfast.
13 Q. Is it right to say that the first day you arrived at Manjaca you
14 had blankets in the stables?
15 A. When we arrived? Yes. One had blankets. You could have two.
16 You could have both to cover yourself with. But it was summertime, so we
17 didn't really need it. But when winter came, we had as many as we
18 wanted. The Red Cross would give four or five blankets. They just asked
19 you how many you wanted. We could have taken ten blankets when the Red
20 Cross came. And when we arrived, there was just hay covered with
21 blankets. We had the advantage that we had wheat hay, which is a little
23 Q. Is it true to say that after the Red Cross arrived in Manjaca, the
24 conditions in Manjaca were more or less correct, acceptable?
25 A. Acceptable, yes. There was less beating, all of that. Then they
1 checked us, those girls from the Red Cross. Every day someone would be
2 there. It was easier to breathe. One felt more relaxed.
3 Q. You said that the women -- that some women and children of Sanski
4 Most left for Velika Kladusa; is that right?
5 A. Yes, correct. In about 12 buses.
6 Q. And Velika Kladusa in those days was under the control of Fikret
7 Abdic, wasn't it?
8 A. Yes. That's why he didn't give them any bread to eat, not even if
9 they paid for it, to the refugees from Sanski Most. Yes.
10 Q. So the conditions in Velika Kladusa were no better than they were
11 in Sanski Most; is that right?
12 A. Well, he would keep all the humanitarian aid in Kladusa for his
13 people. As for those who were not his, especially people from Sanski
14 Most, he wouldn't give them anything, even though they came in a convoy
15 via Croatia, the refugees had no benefits. I had a 13-year-old son with
16 Fikret Abdic, and he had to cut wood for the -- Fikret's men just to be
17 able to eat. He is now 25 years old, my dear child.
18 Q. But Fikret Abdic was a Muslim, was he not?
19 A. So what? They're always all kinds. You think that if he's a
20 Muslim that he couldn't do anything like that? Is that what you think?
21 Let's go and rest. We've had enough of this. Please.
22 INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You said when you returned to Sanski Most your house was intact
1 but looted. Can you tell us when you returned to Sanski Most after the
3 A. Nothing. In 1996 -- again I don't know the date. Honestly I
4 don't. I just don't know dates. In 1996. I cleaned it up a little bit.
5 You know how it is. One likes one's own yard.
6 Q. So actually, between your departure from Sanski Most and your
7 return to Sanski Most, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had entered Sanski
8 Most; is that right?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. And that army chased the Serbs from Sanski Most, didn't it?
11 A. That's how it should be.
12 Q. And during the time you were detained in Manjaca and while you
13 were a refugee, a Serb lived in your house; is that right?
14 A. Yes. Zdravko Curguz from Bihac. Yes. I said his machine is
15 still there. I'm doing my best to find him. I don't know where he is, in
16 Derventa or something. I'd like to give it to him so that he can work
17 with it. He looked after my house, but nothing is left in it. I admit he
18 didn't take it with him --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... you have
20 already told us all this.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Fine.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.
23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. But actually you don't know whether he took your things or whether
25 it was the Bosnian army when he was chased out of the house.
1 A. No. I don't know. My things had gone when my wife came from
2 Pobrijezje. She came once to get some underwear, to take it to the
3 village in Pobrijezje, and she saw that already then the house was empty.
4 It is known who did it. I mentioned it. But when these minor culprits
5 are hold to account in Sanski Most, we'll come to that. And who knows
6 whether they will ever be held accountable for looting and all those
7 things, but they should. This man came from Banja Luka and did these
8 things -- not from Banja Luka, a neighbour. He came to Krkojevci and said
9 Milos Trpko's father came. I used to fish with him before the war. But I
10 don't do that any more. But still I will never attack him, never.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question.
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is it right to say that you consider your neighbours in Sanski
14 Most responsible for what happened to you?
15 A. I think so. I think so. No one came from the outside to beat me,
16 from Prijedor or from anywhere else, but my neighbours. It's not just
17 that I think so, but that's what it is. That is the truth.
18 Q. Thank you, sir?
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further
20 questions, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there any re-examination, Ms. Sutherland?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Just one moment, Your Honour.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Just two matters, Your Honour.
2 Re-examined by Ms. Sutherland:
3 Q. Mr. Muhic, just on this one question that you were asked by
4 Defence counsel that, you consider your neighbours responsible for the
5 thing that is happened to you. What ethnicity are you speaking of, when
6 you say your neighbours?
7 A. The Serb group, the SDS. Let me mention the name of the party
8 too. The SDS party, which is of course a Serbian party. That's right,
9 isn't it? The SDS.
10 Q. One other question -- one other matter. Just to clear up the date
11 of when your house was looted. You said that your wife came to visit you
12 from the village of Pobrijezje. I can't pronounce that. I'm sorry. That
13 was when you were detained in the sports hall in the beginning of June,
14 was it not?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. And she told you when she visited you that your property had been
17 broken into and all the property had been looted.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no questions from the Bench, which means,
22 Mr. Muhic, that your testimony has now come to an end and that you can go
23 back to your hotel and rest before you go back to your country of
25 Before you leave this courtroom, may I on behalf of the Tribunal
1 thank you for having come over here to give evidence. And let me assure
2 you that between now and your return to your country of residence you will
3 be attended to as you may require. If you have any problems or any
4 difficulties, please do contact the authorities of this Tribunal and they
5 will look into the matters. I thank you.
6 The usher will now escort you out of this courtroom.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, you too. And I'm glad
8 that no one is angry with me and about what I said. I'm glad about that.
9 Thank you all. Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Anything else before we wrap up and go to rest as
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So the understanding is that we will resume tomorrow
15 at 2.15 with BT21, that being a closed session, if I remember well.
16 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I wonder if I could get some kind of an indication
18 as to how long the direct examination of this witness is going to
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Who's going to conduct the direct? Is it you,
21 Mr. Cayley?
22 MR. CAYLEY: It is, Mr. President. I have to say to Mr. Ackerman
23 that at the moment, no, I've got no idea how long the direct examination
24 is going to be. It's going to be longer than a few days. It depends how
25 quickly I move through the documents. It depends on how long the answers
1 are. When I do have a firm idea of where I am, I can let the Court know.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The obvious -- the question was obviously being put
3 because of Monday. No?
4 MR. ACKERMAN: The question is being put because of Monday. I
5 intend to be -- to do the cross-examination of this witness, but because
6 of this sort of last-minute change in the schedule I can't be here Monday
8 MR. CAYLEY: Sorry, I didn't realise you -- a week on Monday we
9 say. Not --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Because the week 15th to 18th we will be
11 sitting in the morning and not in the afternoon. And so happens -- I
12 mean, there was an understanding between us that we would see where we
13 stand or where we'll likely be Monday because if that would be the day
14 when the cross-examination is supposed to start, then obviously we were
15 going to have a problem, both with Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Ackerman, both
16 arriving on -- sometime during the morning on Monday and not being able to
17 be present here to conduct the examination.
18 MR. CAYLEY: It --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: As I take it -- one moment. As I take it, we have
20 this witness starting tomorrow, Tuesday, and then we have Wednesday, and
21 that's it for this week because Thursday and Friday we have the plenary.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: We don't have Wednesday either. You just have one
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And we don't have Wednesday either. Exactly. We
25 don't have Wednesday either. Wednesday we have the other issue. So we
1 only have tomorrow, which means that this witness will continue on --
2 definitely. Because if I read you well, you are talking of days, not --
3 not hours.
4 MR. CAYLEY: Correct.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll take it up tomorrow towards the end,
7 Mr. Ackerman. Rest assured that I will try to accommodate you all as much
8 as we can. You know, I mean ...
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it appears there's no problem if the
10 witness is on direct --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: No. The witness is -- will be definitely on
12 direct on Monday --
13 MR. ACKERMAN: I can have the transcript on Monday and be right
14 back with you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And if necessary, even if it is a closed
16 sitting, I can procure tapes or whatever if -- yes.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you Mr. Cayley. I thank you,
19 Mr. Ackerman and of course everyone else. Have a nice evening. We will
20 meet again, please God, tomorrow at 2.15. Thank you.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
22 at 6.19 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
23 the 9th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.