1 Thursday, 29 August 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start. Madam Registrar, could you call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,
8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a
11 language that you can understand?
12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your
13 Honours. I can hear you and I understand you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 General Talic, can you hear me in a language that you can
17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
18 I can hear you and I understand you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner, Julian Nicholls, assisted
21 by Hasan Younis, case manager. Good afternoon, Your Honours, to, as I
22 understand from Mr. Ackerman, the hundredth day.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: The hundredth day today? I thank you. And good
24 afternoon to you.
25 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman
2 along with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic for Mr. Brdjanin. And
3 lest I forget to do this tomorrow, let me advise you today, Your Honours,
4 that Mr. Trbojevic has some duties to perform in Banja Luka next week and
5 will not be with us next week with your permission.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate you telling us that Mr. Ackerman, and
7 Mr. Trbojevic can attend to his other duties in Banja Luka, provided you
8 are going to be here.
9 Appearances for General Talic.
10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,
11 Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm Natasha
12 Ivanovic-Fauveau and I represent General Talic. I'd like to apologise on
13 behalf of Slobodan Zecevic who is absent for reasons of health.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And I wish Mr. Zecevic well.
15 So any preliminaries before I raise some matters myself?
16 MS. KORNER: Oh, well, it may that -- because I was about to
17 thank Your Honour having heard the arrangement that had been made for
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. That's one matter that I wanted to
21 MS. KORNER: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And tomorrow morning -- tomorrow we will be sitting
23 in the morning and not in the afternoon, starting at 9.00 sharp, and
24 finishing at -- any time between 12.00 and 12.15. I need to be downtown
25 at 12.30 anyway. So -- so that's -- we will be sitting in room 3,
1 Courtroom III, and not here. So that's number one.
2 Number two is -- I'm mainly addressing you, Ms. Korner. But of
3 course, I mean, I would imagine that this will be followed also by the
4 Defence. Between yesterday and today, my personal assistant, legal
5 officer, and myself, we were going through the Sanski Most file, and at a
6 certain point in time I had a few questions which with my legal
7 assistant's help I have clarified to an extent but I require further
8 clarification from you. I'm going to take you back -- I'm sorry I'm
9 surprising you like this, but I'm going to take you back to May of this
10 year when we handed down a decision relating to your motion -- to the
11 Prosecution's motion for admission of certain evidence under the Rule 92
12 bis statement. I'm going to go through the basics of that decision and
13 what followed afterwards and what still begs some further information.
14 There was a request from the Prosecution for -- to admit under
15 Rule 92 bis the written statements of witnesses 7.12, 7.119, and 7.62.
16 Now, 7.12 actually testified viva voce here. So forget about him.
17 7.119, on the 8th of July you -- when I say "you," I mean the
18 Prosecution. I'm not in a position to recall whether it was you
19 personally or Mr. Nicholls or Ms. Richterova. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't
20 remember -- or Ms. Sutherland. I wouldn't remember. Anyway, on the 8th
21 of July, we were informed that this witness would testify viva voce in a
22 later stage because of his new job.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes. I remember that, Your Honour, and I have a
24 feeling that we -- we were probably going to call him sometime this
25 month. I was going to have another look at his statement to see whether
1 we really needed to call him before I made a final decision.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we will need to know that --
3 MS. KORNER: Yes --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- for two reasons obviously. First, because if
5 he's going to come here to give evidence viva voce, that automatically
6 kills the Rule 92 bis statement.
7 MS. KORNER: Yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: If he's not going to be produced as a viva voce
9 witness, then obviously the -- our decision would --
10 MS. KORNER: I understand that, Your Honour, yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- will stand.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Then there was a question relating to Witness 7.86.
14 Now, we had decided at the time that the decision on whether the written
15 statement of this witness will be admitted or not will be given if and
16 when the Prosecution revives its request to have the written statement of
17 this witness tendered under Rule 92 bis. It sounds complicated, but this
18 is how it was. There was some doubt in our mind when we handed down the
19 decision as to whether you were still asking to have his statement
20 admitted under Rule 92 bis. You had told us that you would consider
21 the -- or reconsider the situation and come back to us. You haven't. So
22 in actual fact, the -- the request as such, as we take it, as I read it,
23 your original request to have the statement of this witness - I repeat,
24 7.86 - admitted under Rule 92 bis, was left in abeyance upon your own
25 request, and you had promised to come back telling us whether you were
1 reviving this or not. So you will need -- I mean, I don't want obviously
2 an answer from you today, because as I said, I am more or less facing you
3 with all this without having given you prior notice. But I would like you
4 to look into this and then come back at some later point in time.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll do that. I've just been given the
6 name of the witness. But it actually rings no bells for me nor do I
7 recall --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not mentioning any names for obvious reasons,
9 because I am not in a position to recall whether they are protected or not
10 protected witnesses. I didn't bother to check that.
11 And then we had also decided that the written statements of
12 Witness 7.130 will be admitted on condition that Witness 7.139 -- you
13 remember these were the two sisters.
14 MS. KORNER: Oh, yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay? Appears in court to testify viva voce. The
16 Chamber actually does not require 7.130 to attend for cross-examination.
17 When Witness 7.139 appeared in court and testified viva voce on the 20th
18 of June, a question remained in abeyance as to whether the evidence -- or
19 the written statement of 7.130 would be considered or tendered as evidence
20 under Rule 92 bis. We will need a confirmation of that from you.
21 MS. KORNER: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it seems to be a little bit --
23 MS. KORNER: We put it in as corroborative evidence.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
25 MS. KORNER: And as I understood it, it was Madam Fauveau who had
1 originally, I think agreed -- and I'd have to go back and look at it --
2 that it could go in provided the other sister testified.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I mean, I would like you to check on
4 this, confirm for me that we can stand by our decision to have this
5 written statement admitted -- yes, Madam Fauveau. Sorry. Thank you.
6 Thank you, Judge. Yes.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We
8 agreed that the statement of Witness 7.130 should be admitted, and I think
9 this statement is already included in the evidence and that it is under
10 number 800-something.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I just want to make sure of that. And then
12 we had in our --
13 Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Sorry.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have just in front of me here on the
15 screen a Prosecution 92 bis response dated 20 March 2002, which informs
16 Your Honours that they would call 7.12, 7.119, and 7.62 viva voce and
17 would seek to tender 7.86 under 92 bis. Now, whether something changed
18 after that or not, I don't know. But that's --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No. The 7.12, 7.119, 7.62 I have dealt with already
20 myself. 7.86 I have dealt with. I just want a clarification, because it
21 seems to me that the original request to have this witness's statement --
22 written statement admitted under 92 bis was put in abeyance. So we had
23 the impression that the Prosecution needed to tell us later on whether it
24 wanted -- they wanted to revive the original request or not. And then
25 this is where the problem really lies, and this is why I asked my ALO to
1 sit down and work with me on this.
2 In our decision, we also dealt with witnesses 7.120, 7.146, and
3 7.51. We had decided at the time that their written statements will be
4 admitted in their current form -- then current form. However, we also
5 required these witnesses to appear for cross-examination. Now, I know
6 that technically speaking the chapter on Sanski Most is not yet concluded;
7 however, I wish to draw your attention, Ms. Korner, that 7.120 has not
8 been brought forward for cross-examination. And the same applies to
9 7.146. Now, with --
10 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Yes, Your Honour. I'm
11 actually going to have to do a check on --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please. Microphone
13 for the counsel.
14 MS. KORNER: Sorry. I'm going to have to do a check on all of
15 this, and I hope Ms. Sutherland is watching, because she can do the checks
16 while we speak.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's okay. It's nothing dramatic, but it's --
18 we're counter-checking and checking everything we came across this, and I
19 wanted to make sure.
20 And then the last witness, and I know that you have an answer to
21 this, was 7.51.
22 MS. KORNER: That's Mr. Mayhew I'm told.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly, Mr. Mayhew.
24 MS. KORNER: I'm calling him, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So you still intend to --
1 MS. KORNER: I do.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: So our decision with regard to him as far as Rule 92
3 bis will fall.
4 All right. So that's -- that's all I need. Mostly to tell us
5 whether you are reviving your request --
6 MS. KORNER: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: -- re 7.86, and what's the situation with regard to
8 7.120 and 7.146.
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll make sure that we --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Take your time.
11 MS. KORNER: I'll tell you tomorrow.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not in a hurry. Thank you.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, while I'm on my feet, I'll just mention
14 one thing: Your Honours would have seen that the next witness when he
15 made the extra statement yesterday referred to a video that he had brought
16 with him, which we've disclosed today. Because it's brand new, it's
17 clearly relevant. But we have no transcript at all. We're hoping for a
18 rush job on some kind of a transcript by the weekend so this witness will
19 certainly go into next week on any showing. And so at the moment I'm
20 leaving in abeyance whether I make an application to play the video until
21 both Defence counsel -- all Defence counsel have had a chance to look at
22 it. If they understand the language, of course. But --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: On. But I would expect them to reserve their
24 position, not having seen the video in any case. Is that -- is that
25 correct, Madam Fauveau?
1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...
3 MR. ACKERMAN: I assume it's the two videos that were handed to us
4 just a few moments ago.
5 MS. KORNER: Yes, it's one of the two. One's the extract that I'm
6 going to play -- oh, no. What's -- sorry -- oh, that's right. Yes, it's
7 one of the two videos that was handed out. One -- the video with the
8 number 4028.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: We'll -- I'll --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's not the V000/0800?
11 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, that's the video that was disclosed
12 as Your Honour can see some time ago. We've given -- we've prepared one
13 extract from it on a separate video.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But anyway, we'll come to that later when --
15 at the appropriate time.
16 There not being any other preliminaries to deal with, the usher
17 perhaps -- usher, we could prepare the room for closed session.
18 I'm sorry with the members of the public, but we will be
19 continuing -- hearing the evidence of a witness we started with yesterday,
20 and there has already been a decision of this Chamber to take the
21 deposition of this witness in closed session. So you will unfortunately
22 not be able to follow at all. My apologies to you, but this is a
23 precautionary measure that we had to take to protect this witness. Thank
25 We'll go into closed session, please.
1 [Closed session]
9 Pages 9183-9233 redacted. Closed session.
5 [Open session]
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if Your Honour doesn't mind, then I'll
7 leave Mr. Nicholls to complete the rest of this afternoon's session.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please sit down.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Filipovic, we had hoped to finish with the
13 previous witness in time for you to start giving evidence at least by this
14 time, if not before. Unfortunately things didn't work out as we had hoped
15 and anticipated. We are still not finished with the previous witness, who
16 is required to remain here for at least another half an hour, if not
17 more. At that point in time we have discussed amongst ourselves it's not
18 fair any more to keep you waiting in that room over there. So please do
19 accept the apologies of this Chamber, mine and of the two Judges plus
20 those of everyone concerned here. It's certainly not been done out of
21 disrespect to you. It's a matter over which we had absolutely no
22 control. So I am giving permission for whoever is in charge of you to
23 escort you back to your hotel and -- rather than keep you waiting here,
24 then you would give evidence for five minutes or ten minutes, and we will
25 start with you tomorrow morning at 9.00.
1 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, I think he should -- I'll try and
2 get VWS, but -- that it will be tomorrow morning, and not tomorrow
3 afternoon at 9.00.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It will be tomorrow morning and not tomorrow
5 afternoon. Please accept our apologies.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will have a break now and we will resume in 15
10 minutes' time. Thank you.
11 --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 5.39 p.m.
13 [Closed session]
9 Pages 9236-9256 redacted. Closed session.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
18 at 6.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday
19 the 30th day of August, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.