1 Tuesday, 8 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Please be
6 kind enough to call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.
10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you hearing me in a thank that you can
13 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] I can hear you and
14 understand you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.
16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good morning, for the Prosecution, Anna
17 Richterova and Ann Sutherland, assisted by Denise Gustin.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours I'm John Ackerman with
21 Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to. Madam Registrar should I announce
23 for Thursday or not?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being suggested to you that the Thursday
1 sitting it's now possible for us to sit in the morning rather than the
2 afternoon, if that is okay with the parties?
3 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. We have no problem.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you have any problems, Mr. Ackerman?
5 MR. ACKERMAN: No. I appreciate that, Your Honour, very much.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you both for your cooperation. So Thursday we
7 will be sitting in this courtroom, however. All right? Good.
8 So, yes, Madam Richterova.
9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honours, as you were advised yesterday by
10 Ms. Korner I wish to make an application for protective measures for the
11 coming witness, which is 7.135. And if I may to ask for private session
12 just for reasons.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we go into private session for a while. No
14 objection? We go into private session.
15 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We are in open session. Any preliminaries,
23 Mr. Ackerman?
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the memorandum has been submitted and
25 filed and I received a copy of it from the registry this morning so I know
1 it's been filed and you should have it, the one that you asked for.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: I do have some preliminaries. One, I will defer
4 because Ms. Korner is not here and I wouldn't want to speak about
5 it until she is. The first one is this: Rule 53 bis requires personal
6 service on the accused of an indictment. The rule says that must be done
7 by giving him a certificated copy prepared in accordance with requirements
8 of Rule 47(G). Rule 47(G) provides that the certificated copy shall be in
9 the language of the accused. I don't believe that the new indictment,
10 which was filed yesterday afternoon, has been served upon Mr. Brdjanin in
11 accordance with the requirements of Rule 53 bis and Rule 47(G) and my
12 question is what is the Chamber's intention with regard to requirements of
13 the rule in that regard.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You're referring to 53?
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Rule 53 bis requires personal service on the
16 accused in accordance with Rule 47(G) which requires it be in the language
17 of the accused. Then my follow-up question would be is it necessary that
18 he enter a new plea to the new indictment?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: That I think we went through yesterday and 53 bis
20 does not -- seems to me to be referring to the original -- to the very
21 first indictment.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, it can't be that the rules
23 provide that the only indictment that has to be served on the defendant is
24 the first.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The rule says service of the indictment shall be
1 affected personally on the accused at the time the accused is taken into
2 custody or as soon as reasonably practicable thereafter. So if we are
3 referring to the point in time of taking into custody, it is obvious to me
4 that, without prejudice to any further submissions that you may make and
5 on which we are open, but it seems to me that 53 bis refers to the very
6 first, the original indictment. In other words, the one which needs to be
7 served on him upon being taken into custody.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, then, Your Honour should the trial proceed on
9 that indictment, if that's being the one that's served on him.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, because then there is another rule which makes
11 it possible for the indictment to be amended. Even after the Trial
12 Chamber as such has been composed and the trial started which we went
13 through yesterday.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Is it your position, then, Your Honour that the
15 amended indictment does not need to be served upon the accused in his
16 language --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The position of the Trial Chamber is that you have
18 invoked Rule 53 bis and I'm telling that you Rule 53 bis does not seem to
19 apply on the face of it because it refers to the indictment which needs to
20 be served at the time the accused is taken into custody.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, apart from Rule 53 bis let me simply say that
22 it is my considered belief that the purpose of Rule 53 bis or any rule
23 similar to it is to advise the defendant in his own language of what it is
24 he's charged with and to enable him to assist his counsel in defending
25 himself. And so whether it's Rule 53 bis or just some general concept of
1 due process, it seems to me that Mr. Brdjanin should have in his
2 possession a B/C/S version --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Ackerman, okay. The Chamber -- you
4 may sit down. The Chamber, having heard Mr. Ackerman's submission for
5 the application of Rule 53 bis, namely to the effect of the need to have a
6 copy of the new indictment -- new amended indictment on the accused, and
7 his further request, basically a repetition of the request made yesterday,
8 that his client be given time to enter pleas on the new indictment, the
9 Trial Chamber has seen Rule 53 bis and Rule 50(A)(iii), which makes Rule
10 53 bis applicable mutatis mutandis to an amended indictment, orders that a
11 copy of the amended indictment, as per yesterday's decision of this
12 Chamber, be served on the accused without delay, in a language that he
13 understands. Service will be effected personally on the accused, who,
14 however, is not being granted time to file any -- to file -- to enter
15 pleadings as requested by him yesterday and today, the reason being
16 that -- which was specifically referred to yesterday in the oral decision
17 given by this Chamber -- namely that the amended indictment does not
18 include any new charges and the amendments effectively do not in any way
19 affect his standing before this Trial Chamber as an accused person.
20 Yes. Any further demands?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think there was a misunderstanding.
22 I don't believe I have ever asked that Mr. Brdjanin actually be permitted
23 to plead to the new indictment. I raised the issue this morning as to
24 what Your Honour's position was with regard to that but I didn't state my
25 own position. My own position, if I had had an opportunity to state it,
1 would have been that I think it's unnecessary because the indictment has
2 not changed significantly. But I was wondering if Your Honour might feel
3 that it was required by the rules. That's the only reason I raised that
4 and I don't think I raised it at all yesterday. Yesterday I was
5 talking about Rule 72 and my ability to file motions directed to the
6 indictment under Rule 72.
7 In any event you've dealt with it and I'm satisfied with how
8 you've dealt with it and I don't think that the requirement that he be
9 served with the indictment should in any way affect the calling of the
10 witnesses today --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope not.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: -- and I hope the continuation of this trial. I
13 don't see why it should.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the last thing I would expect to you.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Secondly, and this came to me in the middle of the
16 night Your Honour, I'm making no objection, it's just something that I
17 wonder about, and maybe the Chamber should wonder about it. Judge Hunt,
18 as I recall, ruled at one point with regard to an amended indictment on a
19 query by Mr. Pitron that an amended indictment completely supplants the
20 prior indictment and the prior indictment is of no further force and
21 effect. I don't know that there is any jurisprudence of this Tribunal
22 beyond that minor statement by Judge Hunt with regard to that. The
23 problem that occurred to me in my sleep was, are there now two indictments
24 pending against Mr. Brdjanin, the new one filed yesterday and the one in
25 which he's charged jointly with General Talic, or is there just the one
1 indictment and if so, then what is the indictment pending against General
2 Talic? I don't know the answer to those questions.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not something that you alone thought about it,
4 and I can tell you here off the cuff what my feelings are. Number 1, if
5 you go back -- it's true that Judge Hunt decide what you just stated. If
6 you go back to the December 2001 decision or November 23rd -- sorry, 23rd
7 November, 2001 decision given by Judge Hunt as the Pre-Trial Judge in this
8 case until then, before I stepped in instead of him, you will recall that
9 what he did was he directed the Prosecution to -- the Prosecution had
10 sought to amend the indictment and Judge Hunt, if I remember well,
11 directed the Prosecution to represent a fourth amended indictment. At the
12 time you already had a fourth indictment. And what remained was a fourth
13 amended indictment, and that's what we had until yesterday. Yesterday, if
14 you noticed, I tried to avoid at all costs referring to a fifth
15 indictment. So what we have before us, I think, is still a fourth further
16 amended indictment, which excludes now Mr. Talic as one of the co-accused,
17 but I don't think we have a new indictment. Any way, we are open for any
18 submissions you may have in this regard.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: This morning, I received a certificated, signed
20 document called the Prosecutor's fifth amended indictment.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: It can't be the fifth amended indictment because
22 there was never a fifth indictment.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: No, fifth I said.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: But there was never a fifth indictment.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm only reading you what it says on the front of
1 the indictment, Your Honour. It says, "Prosecutor's fifth amended
2 indictment." I'm not making that up.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you, Ms. Sutherland, would you take this up
4 with Ms. Korner if necessary to have a correction? Because there was
5 never a fifth indictment. There was a fourth amended indictment. That's
6 what we started with.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think it was entitled the fifth
8 amended indictment because it's the fifth time that the original
9 indictment has been amended.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: There it was a fourth amended indictment and then
11 there was a corrected fourth amended indictment and the one we have been
12 proceeding under was the corrected fourth amended indictment until
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Any way, we will look into this. We'll look into
15 this. It's not going to change the substance of what your client is
16 charged within any case.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: But we will look into this and Madam Registrar --
19 Madam Registrar, could you please locate for me all the indictments that
20 we have had so far? Because what Ms. Sutherland has just stated may be
21 the practice has been indictment, then the first time it's amended it
22 becomes the first amended indictment, but it could be like that. I don't
23 know because -- I don't know what the practice has been so far here.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel speak into the microphone, please?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: The order came out -- the decision of Judge Hunt
2 of the 23rd of November asking us to file a corrected version which is
3 what we filed on the 10th of December, 2001. So it was the corrected
4 version of the fourth amended indictment.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, this would be the fifth.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the position we took was because this was the
7 fifth amendment to the original indictment, that's what we called it. But
8 I will discuss it with Ms. Korner in the break.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. We will go into that but please
10 do let me have, by the end of today or tomorrow morning, it's not that
11 urgent a matter, I understand, Mr. Ackerman, we can deal with it but in
12 any case -- in any case, we will come back to you on it tomorrow. If it
13 is as you say, then obviously it should be the fifth amended indictment.
14 I was acting under the presumption that the system adopted here is
15 completely different. It is completely different in my country any way,
17 All right? Good.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I wanted to discuss at some length the
19 Randal matter this morning but I'm going to defer that because Ms. Korner
20 is not present.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Could perhaps Ms. Gustin send an e-mail to
22 Ms. Korner telling her what time, towards the end of the sitting?
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Doesn't even have to be today. It can be tomorrow
24 it. It's not an urgent matter, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's communicate this to Ms. Korner
1 and then perhaps during the break, you can liaise and see when it's
2 convenient to both of you.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Whenever it's convenient for Ms. Korner to be here,
4 I don't care when it is.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Gustin will be doing precisely that.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: The final thing I wanted to bring to Your Honour's
7 attention was this and it would have flowed from what I was going to say
8 about the Randal matter but it is this: There came a time in this case
9 when Milka Maglov was suspended and I explained to Your Honour at that
10 point that that could cause serious problems for Mr. Brdjanin's defence
11 because Ms. Maglov was the person most familiar with all of the documents
12 in the case and that I was relying quite heavily on her for that. We have
13 muddled along since she left, one way or another. We then got
14 Mr. Trbojevic here as Mr. Brdjanin's new co-counsel under a very difficult
15 circumstance, because here he is in the middle of a trial, in an ongoing
16 trial, and faced with the proposition of trying to become familiar with
17 all of the thousands of pages of documents in this case, with what I
18 believe must be at least 100 hours of video tapes and maybe another 30 or
19 40 hours of audiotapes. I just have not measured them to see how many
20 hours of material there is there that Ms. Maglov was familiar with that
21 Mr. Trbojevic now must become familiar with. Yesterday, Mr. Trbojevic
22 received a letter from the registry saying that they were not paying him
23 for several of the hours that he had claimed during the last month because
24 they didn't feel it was necessary since we were in court such a short
25 period of time, and to me that's just an unacceptable situation. Earlier
1 on in this case, Your Honour might remember from reading earlier documents
2 in this case, there was a time when a similar situation occurred and I
3 requested of Judge Hunt that a matter be deferred because my investigators
4 in Banja Luka had used up the hours that they were allotted for that month
5 and that it be deferred until the next month and Judge Hunt ruled that
6 that was -- that was a perfectly appropriate request and in fact delayed a
7 deadline over into the next month so that they could work on the hours
8 that had been allotted for them that month. If it's going to continue to
9 be the position of the registry that we are only permitted to work what
10 amounts to roughly eight hours a day on this case, then I suggest to Your
11 Honour that what we should do is when we come to that point in the month
12 when we have used up our hours, advise the Trial Chamber and adjourn until
13 the following month because I don't think it is appropriate for this
14 Tribunal to ask us to engage in involuntary servitude and to perform work
15 for this Tribunal for which we can not be recompensed. I say that in
16 the context of the proposition that I probably bill the Tribunal for about
17 two-thirds of the hours I actually put in because I work almost constantly
18 on this case. I do almost nothing else. But to do what happened
19 yesterday, when the number of hours requested didn't even approach the
20 maximum that's allowed, my recollection of it is that Mr. Trbojevic
21 requested payment for 97 hours and was not granted that. He was only
22 granted 90 because they felt the work he did was unnecessary. And I have
23 already moved one time to dismiss this case on the grounds that if the
24 Tribunal cannot provide sufficient resources to properly defend the case,
25 then it should not go forward and I'm prepared to do it again if something
1 can't be done about this.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Any comments, Ms. Sutherland or Madam Richterova?
3 MS. RICHTEROVA: No comment.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The Trial Chamber directs that this part of today
5 it's proceedings, that is the relative transcript, be communicated to
6 what's his name?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Christian Rohde.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Christian Rohde, who is being also directed to enter
9 a memo in regard. And we will take it up from there, after I have heard
10 the other side of the story.
11 So can we bring in the witness now?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want it to say that I dislike
13 raising matters like this in open court but there comes a time when it's
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman you would be very stupid if you didn't.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because if you feel you are being hampered, what
18 baffles me is bringing in Mrs. Maglov in the picture in the beginning
19 because she has got nothing to do with it.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: She does have something to do with it only in this
21 regard, Your Honour, the burden placed upon Mr. Trbojevic to get to the
22 place that she was at in a very short period of time.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: He's been here for quite sometime now so...
24 Anyway, and the Maglov thing is being taken care of and you should
25 expect a decision on whether there are going to be contempt proceedings
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 pretty soon. In fact, discussing the topic within the next days, with,
2 first, the legal officer who has prepared me a memo and then with the two
3 Judges later on. So can we proceed with the witness?
4 Mr. Usher and Registrar, please do take care since we are putting
5 into effect the protective measures and this is Courtroom II, I understand
6 that no -- no one should be allowed in that -- in the gallery, in the
7 private gallery, but they can of course follow it from downstairs.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. You are going to give
11 evidence, to testify in this trial, against Radoslav Brdjanin, and
12 according to the rules, I need to call upon you to enter a solemn
13 declaration that you will be telling us the truth, the whole truth and
14 nothing but the truth in the course of your testimony. The declaration is
15 contained -- the text of the declaration is contained in the piece of
16 paper that you're going to be given and you are kindly asked to read it
17 out aloud and that would be your solemn undertaking to this Tribunal to
18 tell us the truth. Please go ahead.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS BT-77
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. So as the Presiding
24 Judge in this trial, and on behalf of the other two Judges, Judge Janu and
25 Judge Taya I should like to welcome you to this Tribunal and thank you for
1 having accepted to come forward and give evidence. This morning, we were
2 informed that you had asked for some protective measures to be put in
3 place, namely your anonymity, in other words you will not be referred
4 to by your name and family name, but by a nom de plume, a number we
5 have given you and you are now witness number BT-77. That's how you will
6 be referred to in the course of your testimony. You also asked for your
7 anonymity to be preserved in another manner, that is by having your figure
8 distorted. In other words, I don't know what you have on the screen now
9 but if you are on video, you will see how others are going to see you.
10 They are not going to see your face at any time, they are just going to
11 see those squares, and that's what we call facial distortion. That's the
12 second protective measure that you asked for and that this Tribunal also
13 with the consent and approval of the defence has decided to grant you.
14 The procedure here is a very simple one. You will be first asked
15 questions by the Prosecution and as I understand it, the officer from the
16 Prosecution that will handle the examination-in-chief is Madam Richterova,
17 who is sitting in the centre to your right, and then once the
18 examination-in-chief is concluded, the Defence team will conduct what is
19 known, what we refer to as cross-examination. In other words, they will
20 put to you questions as well. There is no difference essentially as far
21 as you are concerned between questions asked by the Prosecution and
22 questions asked by the Defence. You have a duty to answer all questions
23 irrespective of where they are coming from or irrespective of who is
24 putting those questions to you. In other words you will not be allowed to
25 become hostile either to the Prosecution or to the Defence simply because
1 you don't like who is putting the questions to you or you don't like the
3 You will be protected, of course, and the Tribunal will not allow
4 any questions that have the potentiality of harassing you or of putting
5 you in discomfort unduly, so Madam Richterova, you may proceed now with
6 your first question.
7 Examined by Ms. Richterova:
8 Q. Good morning, Witness, I will ask usher to show you a piece of
9 paper on which is your name and please only confirm whether it is your
10 name. Do not read it aloud, please.
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Will you show it to Mr. Ackerman, please?
13 MS. RICHTEROVA: It will be Exhibit under seal, number P1104.
14 Q. Witness, you were born and you live in a village of Prhovo. How
15 many inhabitants had village of Prhovo in the time where you lived there?
16 A. There were about 60 houses with about 200 villagers so there was a
17 total of about 60 houses.
18 MS. RICHTEROVA: May I ask the usher to show the witness new
19 Exhibit P1105 which is the map of Prhovo, let us say Prhovo overview?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: By the way, Witness, I forgot to tell you that I'm
21 very sorry that you had stay waiting in the room outside before you were
22 brought in this courtroom. The reason is not because we were ignoring
23 you. The reason is that we had some urgent business to attend to,
24 procedural matters, and I'm sorry that we had to keep you waiting.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: This is P?
1 MS. RICHTEROVA: This is P1105. Maybe we need a little bit more
2 clear picture.
3 Q. If you cannot see it on the screen, turn to your right and point,
4 please, where is your village on this picture?
5 A. [indicates]
6 Q. Thank you. Just for the record, the witness pointed at the
7 village of Prhovo. We may leave this map on the ELMO because we will need
8 it later on.
9 I would like to focus today on the events which occurred on or
10 about 1st of June but only briefly. Can you tell us, in 1992, the first
11 half of 1992, how was the life in your village? And was there any change
12 during this period which would struck you -- which would -- which you
14 A. We felt a change from the 26th onwards and around June the 1st.
15 Before the 26th of May, everything was normal.
16 Q. You said there was change around 26th of May. In which way? What
17 happened that day?
18 A. There was shooting around the village, in the woods close to the
19 village. Then we sent a sort of delegation to Plamenica. This was a
20 Serb village, to see what was going on, to find out whether anybody was
21 going to attack us. So three of our men went in that delegation and they
22 went to the house of Milan and Branko Brankovic in this village. It was
23 their house.
24 Q. Excuse me. Can you speak a little bit slower? We will come to
25 everything. Just for the purposes of translation. So please slow down.
1 You said you sent a delegation of three men to village of Brankovici.
2 A. [No interpretation]
3 Q. I'm sorry, was it Plamenica? Yeah, you stated to the village --
4 A. It's a village on the map, the actual village is called Gomile but
5 that is where the Brankovics' house is. It's here on the map.
6 Q. You said it's on the map?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But I cannot see the village Brankovici itself so --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Brankovici is the name, Milan Brankovic is the
10 person that he was -- that was visited at this initial period, and
11 later on by three other persons that are mentioned in his statement.
12 MS. RICHTEROVA: It was misunderstanding.
13 Q. So you went to the village -- the delegation went to the village
14 of Plamenica in the houses of these people who were called Brankovici? Do
15 you remember who were these representatives who went to the village of
17 A. Camil Medanovic, Sefik Medanovic, and Tehvid Osmanovic. They were
18 the ones who went.
19 Q. Do you remember when they returned and what happened after they
21 A. They were accompanied by Branko Brankovic and Milanko Popovic. I
22 recognised them. They went after them. I was up on a tree, in the woods,
23 and then myself and Enes Medanovic went to the village to let them know
24 but we had to go through the woods. We couldn't go through the field so
25 that they wouldn't see us. When we got to the village the army had
1 already reached the village.
2 Q. You said that you saw these three men accompanied by these two
3 Brankovics. And then you state that you --
4 A. Popovic and Brankovic.
5 Q. And then you stated the army arrived. Did you also see army
6 coming behind this group of men?
7 A. By the time we got to the village from the woods, the army was
8 already there. I didn't see when soldiers got there but when we got to
9 the village, it was full of soldiers, the village itself and the
10 surrounding area.
11 Q. When you are talking about soldiers, are you able to describe
12 what did they wear? Did you know them?
13 A. I recognised Milanko Popovic and Branko Brankovic. They were the
14 only people whom I knew. I didn't recognise any of the others because
15 they were masked.
16 Q. You said they had masks, what kind of masks?
17 A. They had transparent socks on their heads and they also had those
18 soldiers' ski caps, ski masks.
19 Q. When you say, "army," did they wear some kind of uniforms?
20 A. They had camouflage uniforms of the JNA.
21 Q. When the army came to your village, what happened? And we are
22 talking about this 26th of May. So what happened at that day?
23 A. They gathered all the villagers that they found in the village
24 into two groups in Medanovici near the shop and the other group was
25 gathered in Hadzici.
1 Q. And after they gathered these people, what happened then?
2 A. They asked the villagers to hand over their weapons and said that
3 nothing would happen to them if they handed the weapons over.
4 Q. So was it the first time you heard about surrender of weapons or
5 were there some previous announcements asking for surrender of weapons?
6 A. I heard that then for the first time in the village.
7 Q. So did the people in the village surrender their weapons?
8 A. Yes. All of those who had them and who happened to be in the
10 Q. Did they give the weapons to these soldiers or where did they --
11 where did they get them?
12 A. The soldiers told us to throw those weapons into a pile. So
13 that's what we did.
14 Q. And did they take them away with them?
15 A. I don't know. They probably did. They didn't leave them with us.
16 Q. Did you receive any receipt for surrender of these weapons?
17 A. No, no.
18 Q. Did you, did you personally, have some weapon?
19 A. I didn't but my father did, because he was in the police reserves
20 before the war. So they had taken away the uniform, but the pistol
21 remained and he had a permit for it, a licence for it, and I handed it
22 over to the soldiers.
23 Q. So after you surrender the weapons, what did the soldiers do? Did
24 they leave the village? Did they search the village? Or what did they
1 A. They told us to go, to follow a certain road, both in the
2 Medanovici group and in the Hadzici group, they put us all on one road.
3 And they told us to look towards Hadzici, towards Hamdo Hadzici's house
4 and they said it takes years to build a house, and it takes a very little
5 time to burn it, and then they torched it.
6 Q. After they torched the house of Hamid Hadzic, what did -- what the
7 army did then?
8 A. We were standing on the road. We couldn't see what the soldiers
9 were doing in the village. They were beating people. I was standing on
10 the road with the women and children. There was some other men there,
11 older men.
12 Q. How long did the army stay in the village?
13 A. About two or three hours, four hours at the most.
14 Q. So is it correct to state that after maximum of four hours, the
15 soldiers left your village?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After 26 of May, did soldiers return to your village?
18 A. No. They didn't come to the village. We didn't see them. We
19 worked normally for three or four days at the end of May, and then we saw
20 that Pudin Han and Krasulje were burning but in the village we did
21 our usual duties, we cut the grass and so on. Nobody touched us for two
22 or three days.
23 Q. After these two or three days, what happened?
24 A. Then the soldiers came back to the village again. I think it was
25 in the afternoon. And they beat us. Before that, they threw a grenade
1 which fell to -- into a field called Dolovi. It was in front of the
2 village. So it didn't set anything in the village on fire because it fell
3 on the outskirts of the village.
4 Q. You say it was about 3 days after the first appearance of the
5 soldiers so?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was approximately the date?
8 A. I can't remember the date, because we weren't really able to think
9 about anything else other than how to save ourselves. We were constantly
10 living in fear about when somebody would come and kill you. But this
11 happened at the end of May.
12 Q. So you said that these soldiers came to your village again and
13 they beat people and throw this hand grenades. What else did you see?
14 A. Yes. When the grenade fell we went to Vahid Medanovic's house
15 to hide, and after about half an hour, we could hear some vehicles
16 arriving into the village. Then Gane Mesic and I went to see what this
17 vehicle was, who was it that was coming, and we saw soldiers and they told
18 us to stop, and we stood still. Then they asked us, "Where are the
19 others?" And I told them that they were in Vahid's house. And then
20 they told me to go and call everybody to come, and to gather by Karanfil
21 Osmanovic's house.
22 Q. I will return quickly to these soldiers. Were they the same
23 soldiers as on that previous occasion or were they some different
25 A. I don't know. I don't know who the soldiers were the first time
1 or the second time. They were masked and we had to look down. We weren't
2 allowed to look at them.
3 Q. What was on this particular occasion, what kind of uniforms did
4 they wear?
5 A. JNA camouflage uniforms and they were also civilians among them.
6 I think I saw a few men in civilian clothes. But they also had masked
7 heads so I couldn't see who it was.
8 Q. Those who wore camouflage uniforms, would you be able to say
9 whether they wore some insignias on these uniforms?
10 A. I noticed that they had white ribbons on their soldiers -- on
11 their shoulders. They were tied to their shoulders but not all of them
12 had those ribbons.
13 Q. So I will return where we finished before. So you were -- you
14 were ordered to gather in front of the Karanfil Osmanovic's house, is it
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. So when you were in front of this house, what did you see? What
18 was happening around you?
19 A. I saw a yellow truck, it was a civilian truck, and Hamdo Islamagic
20 was brought in this truck and he was all bloodied and his clothes were
22 Q. You say he was brought in the truck. Was he lying on that truck?
23 A. No. No. They were dragging him on the road, along the road.
24 They were dragging him on the ground.
25 Q. And do you know what happened to him when you drag him in your
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand what the
3 witness said.
4 MS. RICHTEROVA:
5 Q. Would you be so kind and repeat your answer, slowly, for the
7 A. Yes. Later, we found him, we found him dead. He was killed. And
8 now he's buried in the village.
9 Q. After they dragged in Hamdija Islamagic, what happened further?
10 A. They brought us all before Karanfil's house. Then they beat
11 certain people, and called out their names. They called them to come
12 out. And then when they called these persons out, then I could hear a
14 Q. When you said they called people out, what do you mean? The
15 people who were already gathered in front of this house?
16 A. Yes. The people who were there.
17 Q. Do you recall names of those people who were called out?
18 A. Not all of them but I remember Reuf Osmanovic, Isak Mesic, Hasim
19 Hadzic, and Camil Medanovic.
20 Q. And you said that you could hear a shot. Where did you hear these
22 A. Close by, in the village, very close to us, because we heard them
23 say, "run," and then we heard shots that were being fired after these
25 Q. When you say, "We heard them say, "run," whom they said "run"?
1 A. The soldiers told those people that they had called out.
2 Q. Do you refer to those people who were called out and you were
3 stating their names?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. So after you heard these shots, do you know what happened to these
7 A. When we started towards Peci, we saw those men lying on the ground
8 dead next to the road. They were lying on the ground. They had been
10 Q. I will return again to the moment when these people were called
11 out and you stated that later you heard these shots. What happened then
12 in the column?
13 A. Then they called me out, they called out my first and last name,
14 for me it to come out of the line and they told me to take off my jacket
15 and to throw down my documents in front of the garage. I did so and I
16 started and then a soldier, I don't know him, he must have been a school
17 friend of mine, and he said, "Don't hurt him." So they didn't kill me and
18 I went back in line.
19 Q. So you were back in line. And what at this point, what did the
20 soldiers do?
21 A. Then they said that all the men should form a line, two by two,
22 and head towards Peci and so all of us who were there did form this
23 column. Most of us were there, except for two or three men who were in
24 hiding. And then we started off towards Peci.
25 Q. Do you know what happened to women and children? Were they
1 allowed to stay in the Prhovo or were they taken somewhere else?
2 A. The women, when we started for Peci, the women stayed behind in a
3 group and then we set off to Peci. However, there are some meadows of
4 ours down there and a vehicle of theirs got stuck. It was a civilian
5 Ford, I remember. Then they told to us stop near this puddle, this mud,
6 and they told to us stop there and that five of us should come out and
7 drag the car out of the mud. So I, Osme Jusic, Hilmo Jusic, Nedzad
8 Jusic, and Medanovic Sulejman came out.
9 Q. Can you please repeat?
10 A. Medanovic Sulejman.
11 Q. I just wanted to for the purpose of interpretation, this
12 Medanovic, what was -- what was his first name?
13 A. Sulejman Medanovic.
14 Q. Because before, we didn't get the name. So you -- excuse me. So
15 you were ordered to drag the car out of the mud. Did you succeed?
16 A. No. We didn't.
17 Q. And so what happened?
18 A. Then they told us to go back in line and then they opened fire on
19 us and they killed Hilmo Jusic, Osme Jusic, and Nedzad Jusic and
20 Sulejman was just wounded in the eye. I, thank God, was not hurt.
21 Q. You said that these three men were killed. What happened --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What happened to them? Did you take them with you or did they
24 stay there?
25 A. No. They stayed behind. We had to continue on our way to Peci.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 And they killed a soldier of theirs on the same occasion, whether this was
2 by mistake, I don't know, but anyway, one of their soldiers was killed.
3 Q. So. And what happened after they found out that one of their
4 soldiers was killed?
5 A. Then I heard Marko Adamovic ordering everything to be burnt in
6 the village and for everybody to be killed, for no one to be left alive.
7 Q. When you said Marko Adamovic ordered everything to be burned
8 down, you didn't mention this name before. Did -- who was Marko Adamovic?
9 A. He must have been the commander of their unit, the unit that was
10 in our village. I personally didn't know him but I heard later on from
11 people who knew him that it was Marko Adamovic.
12 Q. And after -- I will rephrase it. You said that Marko Adamovic
13 ordered to burn the village. What happened? Could you -- what did you
14 hear? What did you see?
15 A. It is quite close by and we just heard an explosion and shooting
16 in the village, but later, we learnt that they had killed the people
17 there. We couldn't see anything because we were on the road to Peci and
18 we couldn't see anything.
19 Q. You were on the road to Peci so you left Prhovo, you stop when the
20 car was stuck in that puddle. Where did you go further?
21 A. Then we headed on towards Peci. We came to an intersection, there
22 is a road turning to Sokolovo and another to Peci.
23 MS. RICHTEROVA: May I ask the usher that I think it is still on
24 the ELMO. I don't know whether it is switched on or not. Yes.
25 Q. If the witness could use the marker and show the way from Prhovo
1 to Peci, how did they go? And if --
2 A. Here, there is an intersection to the right it leads to Sokolovo
3 and to the left it is Peci.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't we give him a coloured pen, preferably in
6 red or -- no, no, something much thinner than that. Exactly.
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: There are some markers so one of them.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And he marks on the map the route that was
9 followed. In this march from Prhovo to Peci.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the main road. This is the
11 main road leading to Peci.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with here. Where the truck was stuck
13 and you were asked to pull it out of the mud, where was that? Where would
14 that be? Let's start from there.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's about half a kilometre from
16 Prhovo towards Peci, about half a kilometre or one kilometre from the
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Start drawing, sketching on that map, please,
19 the route which you believe you followed from Prhovo to Peci. Just draw
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the turning for Sokolovo and
22 then the road goes on to Peci.
23 MS. RICHTEROVA:
24 Q. You started from Prhovo so please start from Prhovo.
25 A. This is towards Peci and here is the turning to Sokolovo. Left --
1 to the left is Sisarice a Serbian village and to the right is Sokolovo.
2 Q. Can you see the village of Prhovo on the map?
3 A. Yes, I can.
4 Q. Did you go from the Prhovo?
5 A. I can see Prhovo.
6 Q. So did you go from Prhovo to that crossroad?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So please, can you draw the way where you march on?
9 A. [marks]
10 Q. And would you be so kind and make a cross at the place where the
11 car got stuck in the puddle?
12 A. One kilometre from Prhovo towards the intersection of the road
13 leading to Peci. I think it was about one kilometre from the village
14 along the road towards this intersection.
15 Q. Yes. It is probably -- if we take this map, it will be probably
16 in the middle between Prhovo and the crossroad, is it correct to state?
17 A. It's closer to Prhovo.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly because the scale, as I have it at least on
19 it this map, the distance between Prhovo and the crossroad is easily of
20 two kilometres. So I think what you are suggesting, Madam Richterova,
21 should be correct.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA:
23 Q. So would you be so kind and make a cross?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him point the cross where he thinks --
25 MS. RICHTEROVA:
1 Q. Where do you think the car got struck? Please make a cross.
2 A. It was closer to our village than to this junction in the road.
3 This is somewhere here.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, if it was nearer to the village than the
6 junction, why are you putting the cross right on the junction?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I put it closer to the village.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Where is the village?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm confused by the map.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's where the village is. Okay? Where you're
11 pointing now. So where was the truck stuck? If you say it was nearer to
12 the village than to the junction.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So could I ask you to put a CR there,
15 please, underneath, write the letters CR?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [marks]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 MS. RICHTEROVA:
19 Q. So now we will go on with your description of the journey from
20 Prhovo to Peci. You said that you reach the crossroad, and what happened
21 at this crossroad?
22 A. They killed two or three men there, but I couldn't really see
23 because we had to have our heads bowed and our hands like this behind our
25 Q. So when you said that someone, somebody was killed, why do you
1 think that someone was killed? Could you hear something?
2 A. We could hear the shots and when we returned to the column, we saw
3 that these men were missing. Sometime you're in the front, sometimes in
4 the middle, sometimes in -- at the end of the column. You run around to
5 avoid getting beaten.
6 Q. Where did you go from this crossroad?
7 A. We were heading towards Peci and there is a small hamlet called
8 Sisarice we stopped there for a while. We recognised Jule Sisarice
9 [phoen] and Brano Sisarice [phoen]. And there were some Serbian women
10 there too. And they cursed our balija mothers saying that we should all
11 be killed and things like that.
12 Q. And from here, did you go on towards the village of Peci?
13 A. Yes. Then we continued towards Peci and we arrived in a field,
14 just as we were approaching this area called polje, fields, and they told
15 us all to stop there.
16 Q. And so when you stopped, what happened then?
17 A. We were ordered to take off everything from the waste up and our
18 shoes and to form a group.
19 Q. So you were ordered to put your -- take your shoes off. Where did
20 you put these shoes?
21 A. We put them under a tree, right next to us. There was this tree.
22 Q. After you take off your shoes, your shirts, jackets, what happened
24 A. Then they ordered us to form a group and we -- when we had formed
25 this group, then they opened fire, bursts of fire, at us and we all threw
1 ourselves to the ground, both those who were dead and those who were still
3 Q. How long did shooting last?
4 A. Well, not long, not even half a minute, just a burst of fire.
5 Q. When they stop shooting, what followed?
6 A. We all fell to the ground and then I heard somebody say, "All
7 those who were alive were to stand up," because they would check.
8 Q. Did you stand up?
9 A. Those of us who were alive, we all got up. There were 14 of us.
10 And then they checked to see those who were dead. They would shoot at
11 them and trample on them with their boots.
12 Q. So there were 14 of you. What happened with 14 of you?
13 A. Then they said, as if there were two too many, because if only 12
14 of us remain alive, they -- we cannot take our revenge on them. I don't
15 know what they meant by revenge. And then they took out Senad Hadzic and
16 Ismet Mesic, because they were the youngest amongst us. Ismet was
17 standing in front of me and Senad right behind me. And they took them out
18 and one soldier killed them by firing from his pistol.
19 Q. And then there were only 12 of you?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Can you recollect how many of you left Prhovo? I know that you
22 probably cannot state exact number but do you remember approximately how
23 many of you there were in Prhovo who left for Peci?
24 A. There were about 30 of us, over 30. I cannot give you the exact
25 number because I was right in front and you had to bow down your head and
1 put your hands behind your head like this.
2 Q. And to your knowledge, all these people, except 12 of you, died
3 during the march from Prhovo to Peci?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. So --
6 A. Some were killed in the village and there were others who were
7 killed on the road, and I couldn't look. You were on the run all the time
8 so as not to get beaten because they were beating us all the time with the
9 butts of their guns, with wires, with sticks, with poles.
10 Q. So there were 12 of you and where were you taken from this field?
11 A. We left this Polje area to Dom which was a kind of centre of the
12 cooperative and the post office on the road from Kljuc to Sanski Most. It
13 is about halfway between Kljuc and Sanski Most and the village was called
15 Q. Were you allowed to take back your shoes and your jackets?
16 A. No, no. We were bare foot and naked from the waist up. All these
17 things were left behind. And later on, we found all these things, all our
18 footwear tied up in a sack after the war.
19 Q. Okay. You were taken in front of so-called Dom in Peci. What
20 happened there?
21 A. They tied our hands with wire and string and then they told us
22 that the next morning they would slaughter six and kill the other six with
23 bullets so they ordered us to lie down next to an electricity pole. Then
24 we lay down and they beat us and so on.
25 Q. Did you receive at any point some food or water?
1 A. No, nothing, nothing.
2 Q. So how long did you stay in this place?
3 A. We arrived there about 8.00 in the evening or 7.30. Any way,
4 night was falling and we stayed there until the morning, about 9.30,
5 10.00. So we spent the night there.
6 Q. Did anything happen during the night?
7 A. Around midnight or 1.00 a.m., I don't know exactly, Sulejman
8 Medanovic died. He was an older man, he was a pensioner any way, and he
9 died from the beatings.
10 Q. You stated that you stayed there until the morning. What happened
11 in the morning?
12 A. Yes. In the morning, a van arrived, a civilian van, and
13 transferred us to Kljuc.
14 Q. Where were you taken in Kljuc?
15 A. In Kljuc, we arrived in front of the MUP building, the police, and
16 the driver went inside to the police station and, when he returned, he
17 said there was no more room in there, everything was full, and then they
18 transported us to the elementary school in Kljuc.
19 Q. Do you know the name of this elementary school?
20 A. Nikola Mackic.
21 Q. So you were taken in this Nikola Mackic elementary school. How
22 long did you stay in this school?
23 A. We arrived there around 11.00 and we were in the school for
24 interrogation. They asked us who had weapons and who was a combatant, and
25 after they interrogated us they took us into the gymnasium, the gym of the
2 Q. And this gymnasium was still within this school?
3 A. Yes. It belonged to the school. It was used for physical
5 Q. Did you notice anything which would struck your attention in this
7 A. When we entered the gym, I saw that there were a lot of people
8 there and that there were blood stains on the walls.
9 Q. Did you ask about this blood?
10 A. No, I didn't dare ask anything. We just had to look down and sit
11 on the ground and face the wall with our hands behind our heads like
13 Q. And so I will repeat my previous question. How long did you stay
14 in this school?
15 A. We were in the school from about 11.00 until the evening about
16 7.00 or 8.00, until the evening.
17 Q. During this day in it the school, did you receive any meal?
18 A. No, nothing.
19 Q. Did you -- did you receive some water?
20 A. No, no, nothing.
21 Q. And from the school, where were you taken?
22 A. Then they told us to come out of the school in a line, two by two,
23 and in front of the municipality building, their buses were waiting.
24 Q. And so were you put on these buses?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And where were you taken by these buses?
2 A. They took us to an elementary school in Sitnica, a Serbian
3 village, into a hall there.
4 Q. How long did you stay in Sitnica?
5 A. I can't say exactly. Five or six days. Something like that.
6 Q. Do you remember how many men or how many people were together with
7 you in Sitnica school?
8 A. I think there were more than 500 men.
9 Q. In Sitnica -- in the Sitnica school, where did you sleep?
10 A. We slept in this hall on the ground again, though you couldn't
11 really sleep because there were so many people. The area was small and
12 any way, we were beaten up, half dead, so no one can really sleep or even
13 sit from the bruises.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient for you.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I have two more questions.
16 Q. While in Sitnica, did you receive any meal?
17 A. We would get a sandwich, a small sandwich, every 24 hours, some
18 bread and salami.
19 Q. While in Sitnica, were you told why -- why you were there?
20 A. No, no one said anything.
21 Q. Where were you taken from Sitnica?
22 A. From Sitnica, we set off on foot towards the camp in Manjaca.
23 Q. And you said on foot. Did you have -- did you receive back your
25 A. No, no. We were all barefoot and with no clothes from the waist
1 up, so when we arrived at Manjaca, our feet were bleeding from the stones
2 and the grass.
3 MS. RICHTEROVA: So now we can have a break.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We will have 25 minutes' break, please.
5 Thank you.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova, please.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MS. RICHTEROVA:
11 Q. Witness, I want to show you a document which is Exhibit P947. I
12 show you this document yesterday but did you see it before?
13 A. No.
14 Q. The Prosecution received this document from Sanski Most AID in
16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I am not sure whether we need to put
17 it on the ELMO for Mr. --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest so.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: For Mr. Brdjanin. So if we have a spare copy so
20 we can put it on the ELMO. And if we could put B/C/S version on the
21 ELMO. Yes, exactly. We do not know who is the author of this document,
22 and if you could have a look on the page 1, on the left hand top, you can
23 see the words "name and father's name." Can you have a look on this list
24 and can you see -- no, I cannot ask this question because he is a
25 protected witness. I will ask another question.
1 Q. Can you see at the end, and there is a word "napomena" in English,
2 "Note." And it says --
3 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we take it off the ELMO, please? Thank you.
4 Q. There is a note stating, "In fighting with army and police
5 members, in addition to the above named who were captured in the zone of
6 combat operation and imprisoned, the following persons were killed." Can
7 you see this note?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this note is followed by names. Did you have opportunity to
10 read these names?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were these people killed in fighting with army and police?
13 A. No. There was no fighting there by the police or the army.
14 Q. So where were these people killed?
15 A. They were killed, some people were killed in the village, some
16 people were killed on the road, and some people were killed in the field.
17 Q. When you said "in the field" do you mean the field near to Peci?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, can we go to the private session
20 just for this one document on which are some information relevant for this
22 JUDGE AGIUS: No objection? Yes. We go into private session for
23 a while. Thank you.
24 [Private session]
13 Page 10358 – redacted – private session
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
6 [Open session]
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: And we can take away this document. Now I want
8 to show the witness four documents which relate to exhumations. First
9 document is P1106. Which is disclosure number 9.476.
10 Q. My only question is: Are you aware that there was an exhumation
11 in the village of Prhovo in May, 1997?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This document states that the location of the exhumation -- of the
14 exhumation place was -- and I will read the document, "These civilian
15 victims, inhabitants of the village of Prhovo were buried in a mass grave
16 located in a valley on land belonging to Karanfil Osmanovic right next to
17 the dirt road that runs through the village." Is Karanfil Osmanovic the
18 person in front of whose house you were gathered before you left for
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you stated that you were aware about this exhumation. Did you
22 participate in the exhumation itself?
23 A. No, I didn't, because I'm employed in a company and I wasn't able
24 to go. The company wouldn't allow me to go.
25 Q. And did you participate in the identification process of the
1 people who were exhumed?
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we show the witness Exhibit P1107, it's a
4 document which was disclosed under the number 9.477.
5 Q. And I will only ask you whether you can recognise some names which
6 are mentioned or listed in this record of autopsies and identification of
7 bodies from Prhovo mass grave. Can you have a look at the body number 1?
8 Can you read the name? And the whereabouts of that person?
9 A. Jusic Osman from the village of Prhovo.
10 Q. Do you remember where did you see him for the last time alive?
11 A. I do not remember, but I just know that this man was killed. I
12 saw him actually there when we were pushing the car. That's where he was.
13 Q. And it is the last time where you saw him alive?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Is it the same person you -- about whom you stated that he was
16 killed when you were returning back to the column?
17 A. Yes. Someone called him Osme and others in the village called him
18 Osman but it's the same person.
19 Q. Can you have a look at the body number 24? Can you read the name
20 and the date of birth?
21 A. It's difficult to see. I assume this is Hadzic Hasim, son of
22 Hajro, born on the 12th of January, 1950. And then I cannot see the other
23 number. It's illegible.
24 Q. We will try to provide you with better copy. Is it the same or
25 is it better?
1 A. Better, it's better.
2 Q. So can you please read it once again?
3 A. Hadzic, Hasim, son of Hajro, born on the 21st -- on the 12th of
4 January, 1958.
5 Q. Do you remember where you saw this person for the last time?
6 A. He was killed in the village.
7 Q. Is it the person who was called out shortly after you were
8 gathered in front of this Karanfil Osmanovic's house?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Now I want you to have a look at the body number 30. And can you
11 please read the name and date of birth?
12 A. Hamdija Islamagic son of Pasa born on the 1st of November, 1953.
13 Q. Where did you see this man last time?
14 A. I saw him for the last time when he was dragged into Prhovo by a
15 truck. He was dragged on the ground.
16 Q. Witness, I just -- you had the opportunity to see this exhumation
17 report or better say identification record yesterday. You were able to
18 see, for example, the names under number 3 and 4. If you can have a look
19 at the body number 3 and 4, you can see that there are names of two
20 females. Do you know these females or better say did you know these two
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are they from -- or were they from the village of Prhovo?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when was it when you saw them for the last time alive?
1 A. When we were in the column altogether. Then we went to Peci so I
2 guess they were killed later but we found them when we opened up the
3 graves. We found their bodies in the graves -- in the grave.
4 Q. So at the time when you left Prhovo for Peci, these people were
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honours, if you agree, I wouldn't go through
8 each and every name.
9 Q. But can you confirm that these people in this record were killed
10 either in the village of Prhovo or on the road from Prhovo to Peci?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, is it the first time you're
13 seeing this document or have you seen it before? Has it been shown to you
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw it yesterday.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So you have had an opportunity to go through it page
17 after page?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Now I would like to show the witness two other
21 records on exhumation and identification. It will be Exhibit number
22 P1108, and P1109, the disclosure number is 9.478 and 9.479 respectively.
23 Q. It is exhumation from the year 1999. Are you aware of the fact
24 that there was second exhumation in 1999?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. According to this record, it is said that mass grave was located
2 in the place called sick Ciganska Dolina; is it correct? Do you remember
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I want to read only one sentence from this report, and I am
6 talking about the report -- I'm sorry, because we were -- I mentioned two
7 exhibit numbers so now I'm talking about Exhibit number P1108. And I want
8 to read on the second page, the last-but-one paragraph and it says, "The
9 bodies were then marked in the order of the exhumation starting from
10 number 1." Can you see it? In fact what I am reading it is already in
11 the middle of this paragraph, the paragraph itself starts with the words
12 [B/C/S spoken]. And in the middle, it says, "On body number 4, a
13 rectangular flashlight was found while body number 6 had no footwear.
14 After body number 7, a grey, long-sleeved men's jumper was found into
15 which four pairs of mostly rubber boots had been crammed. And then again,
16 body number 9 had no footwear."
17 Do you remember stating that when you stop at the field near to
18 the Peci, you were ordered to take out -- take off your shoes?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. So can we assume that these persons who were marked as body number
21 6 and 9, might have been --
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I object to what we can assume might
23 have been. That's not evidence.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained.
25 MS. RICHTEROVA:
1 Q. So you stated in your statement that in the field near the Peci,
2 you were ordered to take your shoes off and then you stated that some men
3 were killed on that spot?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, can you have a look at the Exhibit number P1109? And on the
6 page number 2 is a list of people who were exhumed and identified in this
7 mass grave. You were able to see this list yesterday. Can you say
8 whether the people who are listed here were together with you on the road
9 in the column from Prhovo to Peci?
10 A. I didn't know if they were all in the column, because I wasn't
11 allowed to look, but I know that they were found later in the field.
12 Q. Can you have a look at the number 8?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you read the name and date of birth?
15 A. Ismet Mesic, son of Emsud born on the 16th of March, 1977, Prhovo.
16 Q. So was this guy one of them who were -- who you stated was killed
17 as the youngest of you when only 14 of you remained after the shooting in
18 the field?
19 A. He was the youngest as well as Senad Hadzic. The two of them were
20 the youngest.
21 Q. And we can see Senad Hadzic's name under number 12 and his date of
22 born was 1st February, 1976.
23 My last question, which you already answered during the examining
24 the document -- the first document, Exhibit P947, was there any resistance
25 in your village?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Was there any military resistance in your village?
3 A. No, no.
4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Witness. I don't have any further
5 questions for this witness.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Richterova. Just one not exactly a
7 question but a remark that I would like. If you -- if you have a look at
8 this last document, 9.479, halfway down the page, first paragraph in that
9 part, end of that paragraph, it says, "The Kljuc PU will compile special
10 records on the identification of the bodies." Do you have that record,
11 that document? Is it available?
12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I have to check this information with our
13 in-house expert on exhumations. To my knowledge, I didn't find this
14 record, but it is possible that he received this information. I'm sorry,
15 but we will deal with exhumation at a later point, so I am sure that all
16 these documents will be discussed again and in more details.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
18 Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman is the lead counsel for the accused
22 Radoslav Brdjanin and he will be cross-examining you.
23 MR. ACKERMAN:
24 Q. Good morning, sir. Sir, are you aware that on May 19th, 1992,
25 there was an order for the JNA to evacuate Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you have occasion to see any JNA units leaving
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, passing near your village?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You spoke this morning, and I want to start with the 26th of May,
6 1992. You spoke about hearing gunfire. You saw men from your village
7 being escorted and you said in your statement, your second statement to
8 the Prosecutor, which was dated 21 July, 2001, you said, "I would estimate
9 that there were four or five Serb soldiers. They were wearing masks over
10 their head. I would describe these masks as both black ski masks and
11 others were wearing women's stockings over their faces." That was your
12 statement, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, why is it you have to estimate there were four or five Serb
15 soldiers involved? Did you see them or did you not see them?
16 A. I saw two, Brankovic and Milanko Popovic in the village, and when
17 I came from the woods, back into the village, there were many soldiers
18 there, not two, three or four or five. I saw these two of -- two soldiers
19 who came with these men of ours who had gone there to negotiate.
20 Q. Well, let me re-ask the question. In your statement to the
21 Prosecutor, in 2001, you said this, and I quote exactly what the statement
22 says you said, "I would estimate that there were four or five Serb
23 soldiers. They were wearing masks over their head. I would describe
24 these masks as both black ski mask and others were wearing women's
25 stockings over their faces." Now that's the statement I'm referring to.
1 Did you see these four or five soldiers that you're speaking of in that
2 statement? Did you yourself see them?
3 A. I saw many more than these four or five. I knew Milanko Popovic
4 and Branko Brankovic personally. And we were on good terms before the
6 Q. We already know that and you've already told us that. My question
7 is: Did you personally see these four or five that you referred to in
8 your statement in 2001?
9 A. I've told you, not four. There were many more.
10 Q. So it is your statement of 2001 incorrect?
11 A. All the statements are correct in my opinion, they are all
13 Q. All your statements are correct, all the ones you made to the
14 OTP? That's your position?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You've described these soldiers as people who were wearing masks
17 over their faces so you could not see their faces.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And these people who were wearing masks over their faces who you
20 could not see, you did not know their names?
21 A. I didn't.
22 Q. How do you know they were Serbs?
23 A. How do I know they were Serbs? A Muslim wouldn't attack Muslims
24 and the Muslims in the village didn't have weapons. It was the Serbs.
25 Q. How do you know they were soldiers?
1 A. I know because there were civilians bearing weapons and there
2 were also soldiers.
3 Q. How do you know they were soldiers? Because they were wearing
5 A. Yes. They had JNA camouflage uniforms on them.
6 Q. How do you know they were JNA uniforms?
7 A. I know because I served in the JNA.
8 Q. Well, were they JNA uniforms or did they just look like JNA
10 A. They looked the same as those in the JNA, same colours.
11 Q. You were told all the time to keep your head down so you weren't
12 able to really examine those uniforms very carefully, were you?
13 A. Only if you would peep around a little, because there were
14 soldiers around us all the time watching.
15 Q. And you know that during the war in 1992, many civilians put on
16 uniforms who were not soldiers? You know that, don't you?
17 A. I do know, but who gave them those uniforms, then? Where did they
18 get them from?
19 Q. Well do you know the answer to the question you just asked me? Do
20 you know who gave them the uniforms?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Do you know where they got them from?
23 A. No. I wasn't involved in politics. I was a man in -- living in a
24 village, farming.
25 Q. These soldiers you saw, that were all wearing masks or stockings
1 over their faces, where were they from?
2 A. I saw Milanko and Branko Brankovic. Those two, the two I knew
3 them, and they weren't wearing masks.
4 Q. I'm not asking about them. I'm asking you about the ones that
5 were wearing masks and stockings over their faces. Where were they from?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Who was their commander?
8 A. The second time when they came, I heard this from people who knew
9 him, it was Marko Adamovic.
10 Q. But you didn't know Marko Adamovic, did you?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already answered that question in chief.
12 MR. ACKERMAN:
13 Q. And the only thing you know about Marko Adamovic is what somebody
14 else told you, right?
15 A. Yes, yes. I didn't know him personally.
16 Q. Who told you that? Who told you that person was Marko Adamovic?
17 A. People who knew him.
18 Q. Give me a name. Who?
19 A. I'd rather not mention the names of those people.
20 Q. Well, I'm going to ask the Court to order to you mention the name
21 of who told you that this person was Marko Adamovic.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: If the Court will give the order that we should
23 go to private session?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We go in private session first.
25 [Private session]
13 Page 10371 – redacted – private session
10 [Open session]
11 MR. ACKERMAN: I'd like the witness to acknowledge that he heard
12 what you said.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we go into open session, I said. Yes
14 Mr. Ackerman proceed, please.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: I'd just like the witness to acknowledge what you
16 just told him. That he heard it and understood it.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You've heard me and understood me, haven't you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And you do promise not to discuss this portion of
20 your evidence with those two persons?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, Mr. Ackerman.
23 MR. ACKERMAN:
24 Q. A few moments ago you told us that everything you said in your two
25 statements to the OTP is correct, right?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you gave in the first statement you gave to the OTP was in
3 1997 and the second one you gave to the OTP was in 2001. Do you remember
5 A. Yes, I do. I remember.
6 Q. And in 2001, you mentioned that you needed to correct something
7 that was incorrect in your previous statement. You said that in your
8 previous statement, you mentioned that the next day, the Serbs came to
9 collect weapons from our village. This was a mistake, they came on the
10 same day. So at least one of the statements in your first statement, you
11 have acknowledged was incorrect, correct?
12 A. No. The Serbs collected weapons twice. First the people who were
13 in the village surrendered their weapons and the second time, people who
14 were not in the village, who were in hiding in their houses, in their
15 basements and so on. So they came to collect weapons twice.
16 Q. So it's not correct, then, when you said in your 2001 statement,
17 and I'm going to quote what you said. "In my previous statement I
18 mentioned that the next day, the Serbs came to collect weapons from our
19 village. This was a mistake. The Serbs arrived in our village to collect
20 the weapons on the same day of the negotiations not the next day." Is
21 that incorrect?
22 A. The Serbs came to collect weapons twice. The first day and later
23 on, when they killed people, when the population was killed.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: But the whole point is very simple one. I mean, you
25 could answer the question which was clear enough. Okay. You are saying
1 that there were two occasions when the Serbs came to collect weapons.
2 Forget the second of these two occasions. And stick to the first. Did
3 the Serbs arrive in your village to collect weapons on the first occasion
4 on the same day of the negotiations or the day before -- or the day
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the negotiations were
7 conducted, they came to collect weapons.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: You've got your answer, Mr. Ackerman, and that's
9 it. So when you basically the day before -- or on the occasion before,
10 and the first statement said that they had come to collect the weapons,
11 the day after the negotiations, was that a correct presentation of the
12 facts or an incorrect one? Did you make a mistake at that time, which you
13 corrected afterwards, or have we misunderstood you?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a long time ago. I can
15 remember the main events. I've already forgotten the details. I can't
16 remember each and every detail from the beginning to the end. It's many
17 years ago.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that we understand but any way, can we move to
19 the next question, Mr. Ackerman?
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
21 Q. I want to ask you, it's kind of a follow-up of what we've been
22 talking about, you have agreed that in your initial statement of August,
23 1997, you mentioned that the Serbs came to collect weapons the next day.
24 Four years later, when you gave your second statement, you realised that
25 that statement in the -- in 1997 was a mistake. How is it that you
1 realised that you had made that mistake? Did someone tell you that it was
2 a mistake?
3 A. No, no. No one told me. I can't remember every single day, every
4 minute. It's a long time ago.
5 Q. Do you think your memory may have been better five years after the
6 event than it was nine years after?
7 A. I remembered better years ago rather than ten years later. I
8 can't remember all the details.
9 Q. Thank you. I want to now talk about Branko Brankovic and Milanko
10 Popovic. You've said these are soldiers that you recognised because they
11 weren't wearing masks. Correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And those two soldiers, how long had they been in the army? If
14 you know.
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. What army was it they were in, do you know?
17 A. I don't know which army they belonged to.
18 Q. Do you know where they had been stationed before they showed up in
19 your village, what base they were stationed at?
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. Do you know who their commander was? Would you say it's this same
22 person, Adamovic that you've talked about?
23 A. The second time it was Marko Adamovic. The first time, I don't
24 know who was the commander.
25 Q. Do you know who Adamovic's commander was?
1 A. No, no. I don't know.
2 Q. Do you know what military unit he belonged to?
3 A. No.
4 Q. These soldiers that were all in -- had their faces covered and had
5 stockings over their heads and all of those things, you've told us that
6 you don't know where they were from.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when I ask you that question, if you know where they were
9 from, I'm including places like Macedonia, Serbia, all of former
10 Yugoslavia. You don't know where in the former Yugoslavia these people
11 were from, do you?
12 A. No. I can't.
13 Q. And you don't know if the soldiers you saw the first time were the
14 same soldiers you saw the second time?
15 A. I don't because I didn't see their faces. I couldn't know who
16 they were.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we go into private session for just a moment,
18 Your Honour?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar. Private session.
20 [Private session]
13 Page 10378 – redacted – private session
13 Page 10379 – redacted – private session
24 [Open session]
25 Re-examined by Ms. Richterova:
1 Q. When you were interviewed in 2001, did you have an opportunity
2 to read your statement from 1997?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You didn't read in 2001 your previous statement and you didn't
5 make the correction based on the previous statement?
6 A. I -- I can't remember, but I did provide statements on several
7 occasions. I gave a statement in Kljuc, I gave a statement in Croatia. I
8 gave a statement in Slovenia.
9 Q. When you gave the statement to the investigator of ICTY, from ICTY
10 in 2001, did he give you your previous statement to read it?
11 A. I can't remember.
12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I don't have further questions.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Does the Prosecution have.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: These other statements.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Two or three statements? The record doesn't
19 reflect it but I'm told what he said was he made two or three statements
20 in Kljuc and one in Croatia and one in Slovenia. Does the Prosecution
21 have these statements?
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, we weren't informed on any statement
23 made in Croatia and I think the statement he refers to as the statement --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Just answer the question. Do you have or have you
25 ever had in your possession as Office of the Prosecutor, in other words,
1 any other statement made by this person, by this witness, elsewhere?
2 MS. RICHTEROVA: No.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Not to the ICTY.
4 MS. RICHTEROVA: No we did not have. We have a ruling that Nedzad
5 Jusic was confirmed dead, and he gave a statement probably to Lower Court
6 in Kljuc but we do not have any other statements.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with that declaration,
8 Mr. Ackerman?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm satisfied it's the case they don't have the
10 statements. I'm a little concerned about why. I assume this witness had
11 told them at one other point that he has made such statements. I think
12 they should have tried to get them.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You can equally assume the opposite that he never
14 told hem.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree, that's possible.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So that -- sir, that brings us to the end of your
17 testimony. You are free to go. Once more, I thank you on behalf of the
18 Tribunal and on behalf of everyone for having accepted to come over here
19 and give evidence in this trial. Thank you, you will now be escorted out
20 of the courtroom, and may I just remind you not to discuss any of the
21 points that you testified upon with any other person, especially persons
22 that you may think may be coming over here to give evidence? I thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have the other witness in line?
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So, yes, Mr. Ackerman?
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I have a motion now that the witness
3 has gone. I move that his testimony -- entire testimony be stricken on
4 the grounds that he was unable to identify the alleged soldiers, where
5 they were from, who they were commanded by, or anything that would tie to
6 the allegations contained in the indictment regarding the -- well,
7 regarding anything, the indictment simply does -- there is no way to tie
8 his testimony to Mr. Brdjanin in any way because he doesn't know who the
9 soldiers were. They could have been from Macedonia, they could have been
10 from Serbia, they could have been from anywhere. They are not tied to any
11 organisation that's part of this indictment.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Richterova?
13 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, we have a witness who will be
14 accepted according to Rule 92 who corroborates his statement. We have his
15 testimony that he recognised two men from this -- among these people. We
16 have the testimony that he is sure that who was his commander, and we have
17 lots of documents which tied this person with Kljuc area and mopping up
18 operations in Kljuc area.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Any way, what I suggest we do is so that we don't
20 waste time on this moment, that you table a motion properly, formally, in
21 writing, and we will deal with it in due course.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: I think probably the logical way, Your Honour, is
23 maybe at the close of the Prosecutor's case, when I file that motion of no
24 case to answer.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You can act -- you are free to file a motion at any
2 MR. ACKERMAN: I know.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to restrict you.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I think it makes more sense.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Equally what Madam Richterova has just stated
6 might -- either reinforce your conviction to file the motion or convince
7 you of the opposite.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: It probably makes more sense to formalise it after
9 we've heard all the evidence.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: However it goes in the record that you have this
11 intention in mind.
12 Next question -- next witness. Unfortunately, could you contact
13 my secretary, please? Because I had figured out that this witness will be
14 coming after the next break. So I left the -- his statements downstairs
15 in my Chamber.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour before the next witness is brought
17 in, I have to inform the Court that Ms. Korner will be here at 1.30 to
18 address Your Honours on the matter that Mr. Ackerman wanted to raise in
19 her presence.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Would 15 minutes be enough?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Probably not, but we can try.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You will try. So I give you five and five each, ten
23 minutes, and then five additional minutes to round it up. Okay.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour the next witness is witness 7.155, no
25 protective measures.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: No protective measures.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: The witness's name is Samir Dedic.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Dedic. You know that
5 you've come here to this Tribunal to give evidence in this trial and
6 because of that, I need to inform you that in terms of the rules, before
7 we proceed with hearing your testimony, I must ask you to make, to enter a
8 solemn declaration to tell us the truth the whole truth and nothing but
9 the truth. The text of the declaration in your own language is -- appears
10 on the sheet of paper that the usher is going to give you now. May I
11 kindly ask you to proceed by reading that declaration aloud? That would
12 be your solemn undertaking to this Tribunal that you will be telling us
13 the truth.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: SAMIR DEDIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You may sit down. Yes. Mr. Dedic, calm
19 down. You don't need to get nervous. Everyone will be treating you
20 nicely in here. Let me explain to you first of all who we are. Three of
21 us here is -- I am the Presiding Judge in this trial and I am flanked on
22 my right by Judge Janu from the Czech Republic and to my left Judge Taya
23 from Japan. We will be deciding this case, the case which the Prosecutor
24 has instituted against Radoslav Brdjanin.
25 The procedure here is a very simple one and it's taken in stages.
1 You will first be asked a series of questions in what we refer to as
2 direct examination or examination-in-chief, by the Prosecution, by the
3 Prosecution. Usually it's one officer of the Prosecution -- of the Office
4 of the Prosecutor that conducts the examination-in-chief. This particular
5 occasion, it's Ms. Ann Sutherland who you see to your right standing up.
6 Eventually, when the examination-in-chief is over, then you will be asked
7 questions by the Defence team for Radoslav Brdjanin. And the Defence team
8 is at your left. The three persons in the front row and I will tell you
9 later who will be amongst them the one to cross-examine you.
10 You are here to speak the truth and therefore it is irrelevant who
11 puts the questions to you. You have to treat and you need to treat the
12 Prosecution and the Defence the same. They both have a right to question
13 you and in each case, in either case, you have a duty to tell us the
14 truth. You will be protected in case there are any questions that you
15 should not be asked or that may potentially harass you unduly. In the
16 meantime, keep calm and my advice to you is to answer the question, the
17 whole question, and nothing but the question. If you tell us long
18 stories, it will get you no where. It will help only to complicate
19 matters and will lead you into further questions and more questions and a
20 never-ending series of questions. Ms. Sutherland, the witness is in your
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour
23 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:
24 Q. Mr. Dedic can you state your full name?
25 A. Samir Dedic.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Were you born on the 1st of October, 1974, in the Kljuc town, in
2 the Kljuc Municipality?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Your father's name is Raif?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were raised in a small Muslim village of Crljeni [Realtime
7 transcript read in error "Soljeni"]?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this village is situated on a hill top about 13 kilometres
10 north of the town of Kljuc?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In 1992, you lived there with your mother and your younger brother
13 and sister?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And at that time, your father had been working in Germany since
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How old were you in 1992?
19 A. 17 and a half.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Depends which part of 1992, Ms. Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. In May, 1992, you were 17 and a half years old?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you were attending school at the Kljuc high school as a
25 third-year chemistry student, were you not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What is you are ethnicity?
3 A. Muslim, Bosniak.
4 Q. Do you practise a religion?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need to know that?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: No.
7 Q. You are now married with two small children; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you work in the house building industry?
10 A. I'm currently unemployed.
11 Q. Do you recall that you were interviewed by the Office of the
12 Prosecutor in June, 2001, and you signed a statement at that time?
13 A. Yes, I remember.
14 Q. And in September, 2001, you signed a declaration making some
15 corrections to this statement?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You haven't provided a statement to any other authorities
18 concerning the events in 1992?
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 Q. Turning back to 1992, approximately how many people lived in the
21 village of Crljeni?
22 A. About 350 villagers.
23 Q. Was there a mosque in the village?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were there any military installations or facilities in the
2 A. No.
3 Q. What was the main industry --
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me just a moment.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I assume it will be corrected in the future but the
7 village is not Sojeni, I don't think, I think it's C-R-L-J-E-N-I; is that
8 correct am I right about that?
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: You are correct I haven't been following the
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a point taken and I'm sure the correction
12 will be made in due course. Thank you. Yes, please proceed,
13 Ms. Sutherland.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND:
15 Q. Mr. Dedic, in 1992, was the main industry in Crljeni
16 agriculture -- agriculture and livestock?
17 A. Yes. Agriculture and livestock for the most part.
18 Q. When did you last attend school in Kljuc?
19 A. Mid-May, perhaps the last day was maybe the 15th of May.
20 Q. And why was school discontinued?
21 A. Simply it was dangerous to continue to go to school. The buses
22 weren't working any more and it was an emergency situation.
23 Q. When you were at school, how many teachers were of Muslim
24 ethnicity, if you recall?
25 A. I don't know the exact number but there were perhaps four or five.
1 Q. And how many teachers were of Serb ethnicity, if you know?
2 A. I can't say.
3 Q. Did there come a time when the Muslim teachers stopped coming to
5 A. Yes. Not all at once but gradually.
6 Q. Do you know why this was so?
7 A. I found out just that they were not allowed to attend the
8 teachers' staff meetings.
9 Q. How did the Serb teachers treat the Muslim children, the Muslim
10 pupils? Any differently from the Serb children?
11 A. I noticed some changes in the way they behaved. They viewed us
12 differently, us pupils, from before.
13 Q. I want to turn your mind to the end of May, 1992. Do you recall
14 what happened in your village at the end of May?
15 A. Yes, I remember.
16 Q. Can you tell the Court?
17 A. This happened on the 26th of May, when the whole village moved to
18 the other side of the Sana River to the village of Plamenica.
19 Q. What was the reason that the whole village moved to Plamenica?
20 A. Because we heard a man was working in some woods just outside of
21 the village, and he noticed soldiers, and he came to the village in a
22 panic and he said that they were going to attack the village, that the
23 Serb army were going to -- was going to attack the village.
24 Q. Were any of these Serb soldiers captured or arrested?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How many?
2 A. Seven.
3 Q. Sir you mentioned that the whole village moved to Plamenica, how
4 far away is that from the village of Crljeni?
5 A. This is a little more difficult, because the Sana River crosses
6 that road so you have to go to Kljuc first and that is 26 kilometres away,
7 so it's much faster just to cross the river.
8 Q. As the crow flies, from Crljeni to Plamenica, approximately how
9 far is it?
10 A. About one kilometre, not more.
11 Q. Did anyone else stay behind in Crljeni?
12 A. Some elderly people who were not able to leave stayed behind.
13 Q. What is the ethnicity of the persons who lived in the village of
15 A. The place where we came to, Muslims were there, but there were
16 some Serb hamlets there also.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
18 Exhibit 1097?
19 Q. Mr. Dedic, if you could take a moment to orient yourself with that
20 map? Then if you could take a pointer beside you and point to the village
21 of Crljeni?
22 A. [indicates]
23 Q. And to the village of Plamenica?
24 A. [indicates]
25 Q. And I think you mentioned there is a river running between the
2 A. That's right.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you I've finished with the map.
4 Q. What happened that evening after you arrived in Plamenica?
5 A. Yes. We were put up in the houses of relatives and friends and
6 that's how we spent the night, with constant shooting and fear. It was
7 very dangerous.
8 Q. Who was shooting, if you know?
9 A. Serb soldiers and paramilitary forces.
10 Q. Did you see these Serb soldiers and paramilitary forces?
11 A. Not at night, but it was dangerous to look out of the window or to
12 go outside.
13 Q. Did you see them the following day?
14 A. Yes. We could see them through the window.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm going it to request a
17 clarification. In 71, line 3, the transcript reflects that the witness
18 answered Serb soldiers and paramilitary forces. There is some indication
19 that what he might have said was Serb soldiers who were paramilitary
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you heard what Mr. Ackerman has just remarked?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: What was your answer to Ms. Sutherland's question?
24 The question was who was shooting, if you know? What did you actually
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said Serb soldiers and
2 paramilitary forces.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may proceed, Ms. Sutherland.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Did you see these soldiers the following day?
6 A. Yes. I said that you could see them through the windows, from the
8 Q. How were they dressed?
9 A. Camouflage uniforms, olive-drab uniforms.
10 Q. Did they -- were you able to see any insignia on the uniforms?
11 A. Mostly on their sleeves, the Serbian flag, the four letters "S".
12 Q. How long did you stay in the village of Plamenica for?
13 A. Until the 29th of May.
14 Q. During the time that you were there, was any property damaged?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How?
17 A. The houses were torched, a lot of the houses were knocked down,
18 barns were torched.
19 Q. Did you see anybody being mistreated during these three days?
20 A. I didn't see it, but we weren't -- we didn't dare to leave the
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I notice the time. Would you like
23 to have a break now?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. That's why I'm looking in your
25 direction. So we'll have a 25 minute break, resuming immediately after.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before Ms. Sutherland continues, may I
4 just apologise, I'm afraid the court was kept waiting because I was given
5 a whole lot of stuff by Mr. Ackerman at the last moment.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: No need to apologise.
7 Ms. Sutherland, would you proceed, please?
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Dedic, before we had a short break, we were dealing with
10 events in the village of Plamenica. Do you know a man by the name of
11 Hamdo Islamagic?
12 A. Not personally.
13 Q. Did you come to know of this gentleman?
14 A. I learnt later, yes.
15 Q. What were you told?
16 A. I heard that that was his name, that he is from that village of
18 Q. Did you see that gentleman being mistreated at all in the village
19 of Plamenica?
20 A. I saw him tied to a truck or an armoured vehicle and he was being
21 dragged along the road. He was dead probably. He was dead.
22 Q. How was Hamdo dressed?
23 A. He had a shirt and trousers but they were already 50 per cent
25 Q. After three days in the village of Plamenica, where did you then
2 A. I joined the other men from our village of Crljeni.
3 Q. Were you by yourself or were you with others?
4 A. There were another two or three young men.
5 Q. What were these young men --
6 A. Also under age.
7 Q. What were the names and ages of these young men that were with
9 A. Fahrudin Omerovic. He was also born in 1974 like I was and,
10 Ermin Dedic, also he was 17 and a half.
11 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Esad Kablic [phoen]?
12 A. I'm sorry, yes, he was born in 1976.
13 Q. Was he with you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said that you and these other young men went to join the men
16 from the village of Crljeni. Where were the other men?
17 A. They were on the edge of the forest, close to the village of
18 Plamenica, simply they were hiding.
19 Q. At some point, how many, approximately how many men were there in
20 this group?
21 A. Between 70 and 80 men.
22 Q. At some point, did this group come out of the woods?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So what happened when you joined them in the woods?
25 A. A man by the name of Milovan Djukic, whose house was in the Sana
1 River valley, and it belonged to hamlet of Ninici, he called on the men to
2 surrender voluntarily, that nothing would happen to them and that they
3 would be allowed to go it to their homes. However, quite the opposite was
4 true and we all know where we ended up.
5 Q. Were any of these men armed in your group?
6 A. When I joined the group, when I reached the group, I heard from
7 the other men who were there that five men had already been called to
8 bring down the weapons, those five of them, so that I didn't see anyone
9 with weapons when I arrived, because those men had already left.
10 Q. Do you know how many weapons these five men had taken from the
11 group of approximately 70 or 80 men?
12 A. Yes. I already said there were eight or nine hunting rifles and
13 one or two pistols, one of which was my father's, and he had a regular
14 licence for that hunting rifle. However, it was seized from him and it
15 was never returned to him.
16 Q. So all the men came to the house of Milovan Djukic; is that
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And in relation to the two villages of Crljeni and Plamenica, was
20 that in the valley in between these two villages, by the river?
21 A. Quite right. 50 metres from the river.
22 Q. Do you know what Milovan Djukic's occupation was before the war?
23 A. He had a store and a cafe, restaurant.
24 Q. What did you see when you got to the house?
25 A. We had to walk with our hands behind our heads, and we had to look
1 down so that we couldn't see much but I did see quite a number of soldiers
2 and armoured vehicles, and --
3 Q. Approximately how many soldiers were there, did you see?
4 A. In my estimate, about a hundred soldiers.
5 Q. What happened to the group of 70 or 80 men when you arrived at the
7 A. As soon as we arrived, we reached the house, they started
8 mistreating individual men. There was a fence there, a kind of warehouse,
9 storage space, and they put us up there. We were there for about 15
10 minutes. We had hoped that we would be going home. However, I saw two
11 buses arriving from the direction of Kljuc and then I assumed that they
12 were intended for us, and that is how it was.
13 Q. Just pause there for a moment. Did you recognise any of these men
14 at the house?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. Can you tell the Court the names of the people that you
18 A. My teacher, Slobodan Ninic, who was my teacher in elementary
19 school. Then the school principal from Sokolovo, Boro Pesevic.
20 Q. How was Slobodan Ninic dressed?
21 A. He was wearing jeans and on top he had a camouflage shirt.
22 Q. What was he doing?
23 A. He was sitting on a chair and he had a rifle over his shoulder and
24 as we arrived, each one of us stood next to him and he took down the data,
25 our personal data, name, surname, date of birth, and then we passed by him
1 and entered this area with the fence round it.
2 Q. Was Ninic and Pesevic aware that you were under age?
3 A. Yes, but at that point in time, they didn't want to acknowledge
4 it. That is what I assume.
5 Q. How long had -- were you taught by Slobodan Ninic at school?
6 A. Yes. This was quite a long time ago, up to fourth grade of
7 primary school.
8 Q. What happened after your names had been written down?
9 A. We sat down. They escorted us to this fenced-in area and that is
10 where we stayed.
11 Q. You mentioned some buses had arrived from the -- from Kljuc. Were
12 they civilian or military buses?
13 A. Civilian buses.
14 Q. Was there any insignia on the buses?
15 A. There were the markings of the public enterprise Sana Kljuc.
16 Those were the words written on them.
17 Q. Were you put -- were you placed on the buses?
18 A. About 15 minutes later, they told us to get into the buses.
19 Q. Where were you taken?
20 A. First they took us to Kljuc.
21 Q. And from there?
22 A. The bus stopped and during the whole journey, we had to keep our
23 hands behind our heads and our heads bowed between our knees throughout
24 the trip, so that we only saw where we were once we arrived. It was on
25 the main road between the municipality building and the elementary school
1 in front of the entrance to the elementary school in Kljuc. That is where
2 the bus stopped.
3 Q. What did you see when you got off the bus?
4 A. From the bus, I saw a large number of soldiers in town already.
5 There were few civilians to be seen. Then they ordered us to get up, but
6 still with our hands behind our heads.
7 Q. How were these soldiers dressed?
8 A. There were various uniforms, camouflage, blue uniforms, police
9 uniforms, olive-grey uniforms, and en route to Kljuc, there were three
10 armed soldiers in the bus with their guns pointed at us, who threatened
11 if anybody were to raise their heads they would shoot immediately.
12 Q. Did you see any soldiers wearing red berets?
13 A. Not then but before, yes. While I was still going to school.
14 Q. Where did you see these people that were wearing red berets?
15 A. In town, walking around and shooting.
16 Q. Did you know where these soldiers were from?
17 A. I learnt and heard that they had come from Banja Luka.
18 Q. Who told you this?
19 A. The other students, citizens, the people of Kljuc, that was the
20 information going around, because we hadn't -- we didn't use to see them
21 before so they must have come from somewhere.
22 Q. Approximately when was the first time you saw these soldiers?
23 A. At the end of May, or rather the end of April and the beginning of
25 Q. If we can return now to when you got off the bus, when you arrived
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 at the school, what was the name of the school again?
2 A. Nikola Mackic elementary school.
3 Q. And what happened when you arrived at the school?
4 A. They ordered us to get up with our hands behind our heads, and to
5 get off the bus slowly. In the meantime, those soldiers were hitting the
6 windows of the buses, threatening to slaughter us, to kill us, so that
7 this was unbelievable fear that we were in. Everything was so strange.
8 Q. What happened when you got off the bus?
9 A. As we were getting off, on the steps, still on the steps, there
10 were soldiers on both sides, so that whoever got off was -- received a
11 blow on the head or somewhere else but in any event he would be beaten.
12 And from the road to the school itself, it's about 50 metres, so they
13 formed this gauntlet, two lines of soldiers on either side and we had to
14 pass in between.
15 Q. What happened when you ran through the gauntlet?
16 A. It was terrible. We were being beaten from all sides. No one
17 could avoid it. The path we ran over was covered in blood as with the tip
18 of their rifles, they would hit many people, which caused bleeding and the
19 path was all in blood.
20 Q. Were you hit?
21 A. I was.
22 Q. What happened when you arrived outside of the building?
23 A. This was slow, you see, the way we passed took time because at the
24 entrance to the building, everyone had to lean his hands against the wall
25 and then he would be searched so that the beating lasted sometime, until
1 the person at the entrance was being searched and deprived of everything
2 he had on his -- a watch or a chain or anything else. This would be
3 seized and once they finished with him, then they would take care of the
4 next one and the person would be allowed to go into the corridors where
5 the beating would continue.
6 Q. What building were you taken to after you were searched?
7 A. It was the sports hall, the gym, the gym, where we had physical
8 education in school. Did you ask me where we were searched?
9 Q. No. You were searched outside before you were taken into the
10 building. I understand.
11 A. At the entrance, yes, at the entrance, yes.
12 Q. Approximately how many men were inside the sports hall?
13 A. It was packed full.
14 Q. What was the ethnicity of these men?
15 A. They were Muslims, maybe some Croats because there were some
16 Croats in Kljuc. There was a certain percentage of Croats too. But
17 mostly, they were Muslims.
18 Q. Were you questioned?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What were you questioned about?
21 A. They would kick one in the back, somebody in the back, and tell
22 him to get up, and then they would take him to three or four premises that
23 existed, and they would take him inside and they would ask us to confess
24 things that we had never dreamed of. Many people had to confess because
25 of the torture and mistreatment. They had to confess things that were not
2 Q. During your questioning, were you asked how old you were?
3 A. Yes, not in the room but at the entrance, yes, the soldier -- a
4 soldier was there.
5 Q. Were you beaten?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How tall were you then and how much did you weigh?
8 A. One metre 70, and I had over 60 kilograms.
9 Q. How long were you kept in the Nikola Mackic elementary school?
10 A. We got there in the evening, about 4.00, and until the next day at
11 7.00 in the evening.
12 Q. While you were there, were you provided with any food?
13 A. No. We didn't get anything.
14 Q. At any time were you told why you were being detained?
15 A. No. We spent the time sitting down all the time with our hands on
16 our backs and it was really dreadful. They would just pass in between the
17 lines and kick one or two or hit people in the back.
18 Q. You said that you stayed there until the next day at 7.00 p.m. in
19 the evening. Where were you then taken?
20 A. Again, they boarded us on the buses. They didn't tell us where
21 they were taking us. During the journey, again, they threatened if anyone
22 raised his head, they would shoot, and they frightened us. They said they
23 were taking us for execution.
24 Q. How were these people dressed, the men on the bus?
25 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.
1 Q. Where were you taken?
2 A. They stopped the bus again we didn't know where we were, but we
3 saw that later. We got off, and again there was a sports hall there, and
4 this locality is called Sitnica.
5 Q. How long did you stay at the Sitnica elementary school?
6 A. Six or seven days, six or seven.
7 Q. Approximately how many men and boys were in the school gym?
8 A. As many as in Kljuc. We were all transferred there.
9 Q. Were you provided food in this place of detention?
10 A. Yes, but only the next day.
11 Q. What sort of food were you provided?
12 A. It was like a sandwich, but really small, a little piece of bread
13 and some salami.
14 Q. Were you called out for questioning at the Sitnica school?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you recall the names of any other people that were called out
17 for questioning?
18 A. I don't remember. This was just a transit point on the way to the
19 Manjaca camp so that there wasn't much interrogation there.
20 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Omer Filipovic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How do you know him?
23 A. He was a teacher in -- a teacher of history in the secondary
25 Q. Did you see him in the Sitnica elementary school?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Did he say that he was -- did he just
3 say that he was a teacher, a teacher of history in the secondary school or
4 did he also say that he was his teacher? Was he your teacher? Because I
5 heard you say "moj" or something like that.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was in the school and he taught
7 me history for two years.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Did you see Omer Filipovic being called out for questioning?
10 A. I don't remember him being called out there.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour I'm about to move to another topic
12 and we were going to --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, perhaps we can stop here. Mr. Dedic, we need
14 to stop here because there is a procedural point that we need to take up,
15 about which you have nothing to do, it doesn't concern you, so you will be
16 escorted out of this courtroom and that will be all for today. You will
17 be returning to this courtroom tomorrow morning and we will take it up
18 from there and hopefully by tomorrow it, you will be finished.
19 I thank you.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like to go --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Try to respect it to five minutes, please.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: I'd like to go into private session, please.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We will go into it private session.
1 [Private session]
13 Page 10407-10416 – redacted – private session
1 -- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
2 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
3 the 9th day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.