Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10952

1 Monday, 28 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you hearing me in a language that you can

13 understand?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hear and I understand, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

17 Appearances for the Prosecution.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good morning, Your Honours. Anna Richterova, Ann

19 Sutherland, and Denise Gustin for the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Where's Ms. Gustin? I can't see her.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: She's here. She just left for two binders.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I thought there was something wrong.

23 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

25 I'm here with Milan Trbojevic. Ms. Jevtovic is not here. It probably has

Page 10953

1 to do with the storm we had yesterday and flights and things. I hope

2 she'll be here soon.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. And good morning to you

4 both.

5 Any preliminaries? Yes.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: Okay. So I will start. It has -- it is about

7 three motions which were filed by Defence lawyers of Mr. Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. I'm not interested to hear about those.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: In that case --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You know that the composition of the Chamber in

11 Talic has been changed, as of last week. And therefore, any submissions

12 in relation to that case on behalf of either the Prosecution or the

13 Defence ought to be addressed to a different Chamber, not to this one.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: I only thought that the one motion, motion to

15 prevent the Prosecution from introducing evidence relating to

16 General Talic in Brdjanin case --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget it. I mean, that will -- that will be -- I'm

18 not interested in hearing anything.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: In that case, I --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And please proceed, because we have been discussing

21 amongst ourselves and we will be introducing a new system in this Chamber.

22 When you have submissions to make on a legal argument, we are not going

23 to entertain any further oral submissions which will take time from our

24 schedule for the hearing of witnesses. So any oral arguments which you

25 have, which you might have, as from now onwards which are tantamount to a

Page 10954

1 specific request or remedy, please henceforth be advised to formulate them

2 in writing. But we will not entertain any further loss of time from the

3 hearing of witnesses. The Chamber is here to hear the witnesses primarily

4 and to deal with the rest during other hours.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand, and I do

6 not have any preliminaries.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Ackerman.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, after what she just said, Your Honour, I

9 don't know if I should say anything or put it all in writing.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I mean, you can advise the Chamber what to

11 expect, but just leave it at that, because it may well be that -- some

12 kind of debate might be required.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll limit it to one matter, Your Honour. As you

14 know, you have and you've been given a copy of a joint memorandum that was

15 entered into between the Prosecution and Defence.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Regarding the Prijedor phase of the case. That

18 memorandum by its specific terms and in its spirit contemplates that we

19 will dramatically shorten --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: -- the evidence presentation in Prijedor by using

22 transcripts of prior testimony as the basis of the direct testimony.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Supplemented by very brief additional direct,

25 having to do with specific Brdjanin issues. That's what Your Honour

Page 10955

1 suggested; that's what we agreed.

2 The first of those witnesses is 7.178, who's the next witness to

3 be called. As a matter of fact, with regard to that witness, I advised

4 the Prosecution that I would accept the transcripts without the witness

5 even needing to be called. The Prosecution decided not to accept that

6 offer and to go ahead and call the witness in any event.

7 And then this morning when I got up I was greeted with a list of

8 proposed exhibits for that witness. It appears that the Prosecution is

9 going to put in as many as 48 documents -- have this witness talk about as

10 many as 48 documents. It seems to me it goes way beyond the limited

11 direct specific to the Brdjanin case. And if that's going to be the

12 attitude of the Prosecution regarding the agreement, then I don't know why

13 we spent any time entering into it in the first place. And it seems to be

14 a waste and that we're just going to go forward as usual. And that's what

15 I wanted to bring to your attention.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But that's not a legal matter. That's a

17 matter of administration. And what I said earlier -- what I hinted at

18 earlier as the henceforth future policy of this Trial Chamber does not

19 relate to matters of administration. Matters of administration need to be

20 addressed at the beginning of the sitting as much as possible.

21 I have a list of potential exhibits, and mine is only of 25.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: You're looking at today's witness, Your Honour.

23 I'm looking at --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. 7.68.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm looking at the first one that has -- that

Page 10956

1 involves transcripts. This witness there are no previous transcripts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: 7.178 is the one I'm talking about, which is the

4 witness scheduled probably for tomorrow. And I think there are 48 -- I

5 counted it quickly, but I think there are 48 exhibits listed there.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest that you thrash it out with

7 Ms. Korner as much as you can -- or is the next witness in your hands,

8 Ms. Sutherland?

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Is the next

10 witness ...?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness will be --

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. He'll be testifying tomorrow.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, 7.178; correct?

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. Your Honour, did Your Honour want me to

15 respond to this?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. But it could well be that these are

17 the documents that are covered or referred to in his -- no?

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, they're not, Your Honour. These documents

19 are part of the Prijedor binders, the five binders that have been

20 submitted as potential exhibits. A number of them -- I can't count off

21 the top of my head, but perhaps 25 to 30 of them are dealing with

22 dismissals and appointments. Now, we say that is relevant to

23 Mr. Brdjanin, and this witness will not be dealing at great length with

24 these documents and it will not take a lot of time.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's -- it's still -- I can understand

Page 10957

1 Mr. Ackerman's complaints in the sense that if he's given one scenario in

2 the beginning which is enough for him to take a decision even to the

3 extent of not calling -- of not needing the witness to be present and then

4 all of a sudden be informed that the witness is going probably to be

5 referred to in the short direct to 48 documents, then the whole -- the

6 whole picture changes --

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it's my understanding that

8 Mr. Ackerman was informed last week by the senior trial attorney that this

9 witness was going to be called by us after we had received his e-mail to

10 say that he was happy for this witness not to be called. There was a

11 discussion held, and he was advised that this witness was going to be

12 called -- a few documents were going to be introduced through him from the

13 Prijedor binders and some videos. That's my understanding of the matter.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In any case, let's close the debate on this

15 matter here. May I suggest to you that knowing and fully aware that

16 what's going to happen with Prijedor is the result of a mutual decision to

17 cooperate between -- a mutual decision between Prosecution and Defence, I

18 think the rest, how you administer the evidence stage in regard to this

19 Prijedor, has to be proceeded with in the same spirit of collaboration.

20 So in other words, please do not create situations or bring about

21 situations which may to any extent -- because in these instances when

22 there is good faith and cooperation, even the slightest irritation

23 irritates more than usual. So what I would suggest is that you take these

24 matters up in the same spirit that you have done so far and try to sort

25 these things out in as practical --

Page 10958

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: I will have a discussion with Ms. Korner.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: And then I will discuss it with Mr. Ackerman.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 Can we call the witness in? Any further submissions Mr. Ackerman?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I hesitate to ask but I was wondering what the

7 status of --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: 98. Yes, a decision is on its way from Belgium,

9 because it was drafted but it needed some more drafting, some amendments,

10 and we still have to go through it, the three of us. It will be handed

11 down very soon. The only thing that I can tell you before we hand down

12 the decision is that in this we are perfectly entitled to say that the

13 decision will not be such as to hamper or obstruct the continuation of the

14 Prosecution proceeding with the witnesses for the time being. Okay?

15 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I think in that connection I should report to the

17 Trial Chamber that I -- that I worked every day since last Friday.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So have we.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Numerous hours, 10, 12, 14 hours a day. It's my

20 considered judgement that I have managed to work through about 20 per cent

21 of the workload that needs to be done to be prepared for the Prijedor

22 phase of this case. And I am absolutely prepared for the three witnesses

23 that are scheduled for this week. No problem with any of those. Next

24 week becomes a serious problem.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next witness, please, 7. --

Page 11033

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: He's in closed session.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: In closed session.

3 So members of the public, I'm afraid your presence in the public

4 gallery practically comes to an end here, because we need to go into

5 closed session with this witness for -- as a protective measure.

6 We'll go into closed session now.

7 [Closed session]

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23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

24 at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

25 the 29th day of October, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.