1 Thursday, 31 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. And this is the case number,
8 Case Number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you
10 hear me in a language that you can understand?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I can
12 hear you, and I understand.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.
14 Appearances for the Prosecution.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Anna Richterova and Ann Sutherland for the
16 Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin. By the way, good afternoon.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, to you too, the three of you.
18 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I am John Ackerman
20 and I'm with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And good afternoon to you as well. So any bad news
22 before we --
23 MR. ACKERMAN: You think every time I stand up it's bad news. I
24 think, is it 1278 -- P1278? Is that the exhibit?
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: 1268.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: 1268.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge please.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that was the decisions of the Crisis
5 Staff --
6 MR. ACKERMAN: There is a problem with regard to that document,
7 Your Honour, that I have been discussing with the Prosecutor, and I just
8 want to let you know what it is. For some reason, only parts of it were
9 translated, so what you have is the full document in B/C/S, and just
10 little parts of it in English. So that parts of it are in some ways
11 unavailable for use in the courtroom. I'm not -- I'm not suggesting to
12 you that I think we need to do anything about that except get it
13 translated and get the exhibit brought up to where it needs to be as soon
14 as possible. I've gone through it as best I can with the help of my
15 assistants, and there are some parts of it that I would want to use but
16 not necessarily with this witness. I can do it with some other witness.
17 But it really needs to be made whole, and that's what we are doing.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need to have it translated in its entirety?
19 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so, Your Honour. What is the exhibit? I
20 mean, this is an exhibit that's supposed to be evidence.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: What I mean to say is that I don't know how long it
22 is in its original form because I only have the English version here.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: 92 pages.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: 92 pages.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: It's 92 pages in B/C/S.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Richterova.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's 79.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: See, I was wrong. 79.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not far off. And how much of it has not been
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, for example, decision number 18, 19,
7 20 has been translated. 21 hasn't. 22 has. 23, 24 have. 25 hasn't. 26
8 has. 27 hasn't. 28, 29, 30 have been translated. 31, 32, 33 have not.
9 34 has --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, all right. Would you live with having this
11 translated not officially?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: As long as we have a record that reflects what's
13 really going on. I mean, it's an exhibit. It ought to be complete.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: But there were instances previously where we agreed
15 that given the resources of the Tribunal, to have it -- have some
16 documents translated --
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we -- that's not a problem. I don't care
18 how it's done. Unofficially is fine with me. What we did earlier Your
19 Honour I know with some one-page documents, we simply read it into the
20 record. This is different.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Madam Sutherland or Richterova, whoever is in
22 charge of this, I think if we have a request for this document to be
23 translated in its entirety, we'll have to accede to that request.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Last night the Prosecution
25 found two documents, translations of two of the decisions contained within
1 the Official Gazette, 2 of 1992, which aren't contained within Prosecution
2 Exhibit 1268. We will request, if Mr. Ackerman requires, a draft
3 translation of the other articles which haven't been yet translated.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you quite -- are you quite sure that this
5 Official Gazette has not been translated, document hasn't been translated
6 in its entirety in the Stakic case?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: I thought it had been, Your Honour, and I checked
8 with the case manager in that case yesterday. And this is the only
9 document that was submitted in the Stakic case as well. So for some
10 reason, in my own mind, I thought that we had got the whole Official
11 Gazette 2 of 1992 from the Prijedor Municipality translated, but it turns
12 out it that it hasn't been.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, Mr. Ackerman?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I think probably the best way to do it Your Honour
15 now is I stand here and think about it -- sit here and think about it is
16 that I should actually take some time to go through it with my people
17 here, because there is going to be some in there that really don't need to
18 be translated. But there will be some that do.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I suggested to you earlier whether it
20 needs in reality to be translated.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll do it that way. That makes sense.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Because to be frank with you, Mr. Ackerman, it does
23 seem not odd, I mean, it's perhaps a strong word that I am using, or
24 strange or whatever, but something to that effect, that the Defence teams
25 in Stakic did not feel the need to have the rest translated, while in this
1 case the need is being felt.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, both of the Defence counsel in Stakic speak
3 the language, Your Honour. So they didn't need to have it translated.
4 They can read it. And that's probably a small difference, but it is a
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, as I said, I just agreed if
8 Mr. Ackerman wanted it translated. But upon reflection, I think that it's
9 a waste of resources if there's a number of those in there that are
10 totally irrelevant and I think if Mr. Ackerman wishes to flag to us which
11 ones he wants translated, or he can get it done himself through the CLSS.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Ackerman has already indicated this is
13 precisely what he will do. Thank you Mr. Ackerman, thank you Ms.
14 Sutherland. Shall we bring the witness in?
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I gave you a memorandum today
17 regarding the tapes. You asked me to give you the number of hours of
18 tapes that Mr. Brdjanin needs to review. And I've done that as accurately
19 as I can. I can't tell you it's a hundred per cent accurate, but I think
20 it's very.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I also wanted information on documents that
22 have been disclosed, transcripts --
23 MR. ACKERMAN: That project is going on. There's two people at my
24 office working on it right now. We'll be able to give you that material
25 on Monday, I think, Your Honour.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Although
2 the two are related obviously the approach must be different or needs to
3 be different.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will continue, and we'll proceed and finish
8 with your testimony today. And before you sit down, may I ask you to
9 make -- repeat your solemn declaration to tell us the truth and the whole
10 truth and nothing but the truth.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland will finish with her
16 examination-in-chief, and then Mr. Ackerman will be cross-examining you.
17 WITNESS: KERIM MESANOVIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Examined by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]
22 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, in your Omarska testimony, and this is at page
23 5201, you stated that you were transferred from the Omarska camp to the
24 Trnopolje camp. How long did you stay in the Trnopolje camp?
25 A. I only stayed for a night and a day, which means I left the
1 following day.
2 Q. How did you come to leave the Trnopolje camp?
3 A. Zeljko Meakic, the camp commander, took me with his driver.
4 Q. Zeljko Meakic, the camp commander of the Omarska camp?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And so he came to the Trnopolje camp, and where did he take you?
7 A. He took me to my flat, to my house, my family home.
8 Q. And from there -- you stayed how long?
9 A. I stayed for a night and a day.
10 Q. And then I think in your Omarska testimony, you talk about going
11 to Petrov Gaj?
12 A. Yes, that's correct. That's the village Zeljko Meakic comes
13 from. My brother's wife's parents are from there.
14 Q. Turning to another matter, yesterday in your testimony, you said
15 that 43 people from the white house and 2 women, Sadeta Medunjanin and
16 another woman were taken for a discharge. Do you recall when this
18 A. I think that was the second half of July. It happened in July.
19 They were sent for an exchange somewhere near Bihac.
20 Q. Can you tell the Court what you've learnt about what happened
21 to these people?
22 A. They never got there. They never reached Bihac because
23 supposedly, the exchange had failed, but they never returned them. They
24 may have killed them somewhere along the road, but I wouldn't know really.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
1 Exhibit P1320.
2 Q. Sir, this exhibit contains two documents, one dated the 8th of
3 August, 1992, and the other dated the 16th of September, 1992. Could you
4 review those documents to yourself.
5 I'm sorry, I said one was dated the 8th of August. It is the 11th
6 of August, 1992.
7 A. Yes, I've read it.
8 Q. Looking at the first document dated the 11th of August, 1992, who
9 is that -- who is that letter from?
10 A. It's a letter from the Bishop's diocese office in Banja Luka.
11 It's a Catholic office.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... who is the signature block on
13 the document?
14 A. Dr. Franjo Komarica, the Bishop of Banja Luka.
15 Q. And who is the letter addressed to?
16 A. It's addressed to Simo Drljaca, chief of the public security
17 station in Prijedor.
18 Q. And the letter is a request from Dr. Komarica in respect of one of
19 his priests, Father Stipo Sosic. Do you see that in the third paragraph?
20 A. Yes, I can see that.
21 Q. Where in this letter it states that he is from Ljubija and that he
22 has been in the Omarska camp since the 15th of June, 1992, and to date he
23 has not received any information from Mr. Drljaca or any other competent
24 authority about the priest.
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Looking at the second letter dated the 16th of September, 1992, is
2 that a letter from the chief of the SJB, Simo Drljaca?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... in Banja Luka?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the letter from Mr. Drljaca informs the bishop that Mr. Stipo
7 Sosic, the parish priest of Ljubija, was brought to the Omarska
8 investigation centre on the 15th of June, 1992 because there were grounds
9 to believe that he participated in the organisation of the armed rebellion
10 against the Serbian Republic and the Serbian people, and that he stayed
11 there until the end of the investigation on the 6th of August, 1992, when
12 he was transferred along with other prisoners to the Manjaca military camp
13 which is under the jurisdiction of the army of the Serbian Republic.
14 Do you -- did you see father Stipo Sosic in Omarska camp?
15 A. No, I didn't personally see him but I know that people talked
16 about him being there. Even before the war, he has been a very prominent
17 priest because he had been contact with the politicians who were then in
18 power, the communists. So he was not exactly anonymous, people in
19 Prijedor knew about him and he was involved in the city's politics. I
20 heard that he was in Omarska, but I didn't see him, and I knew from the
21 other inmates stories that he had ended up in Omarska and indeed never got
23 Q. I'm sorry. Just going back to the first letter of the 11th of
24 August, 1992, who were copies of the letter addressed to?
25 A. Milomir Stakic, the president of the Municipal Assembly of
1 Prijedor; General Talic in Banja Luka; and the papal nunciature in
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with that document.
4 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, while you were detained in the glass house which
5 you pointed out to Their Honours was part of the administration building
6 in Omarska, were you ever told about a visit to the camp by a delegation
7 from Banja Luka?
8 A. We were prepared for their arrival. I remember that one day, Brk
9 passed through the restaurant and through the glass house and he said that
10 those rooms should be tidied up and cleared up because an important
11 delegation from Banja Luka would be arriving, including Brdjanin,
12 Zupljanin, Radic, and some other names were mentioned, too. And when they
13 would pass through, he told is to greet them with three fingers. I'm not
14 sure why I was supposed to greet them like that. I suppose they liked it
15 very much. Groups that were being taken for lunch were being trained to
16 march, a march that was done in the former JNA. So if when the soldiers
17 were treading, you only heard the tuck tuck sound. And the commander
18 would say, "very well." And the answer was "we serve the people." And
19 for that day, when the inmates were told "very well" they were supposed to
20 answer was "long live Serbia."
21 Q. You mentioned a person called Brk. Who is that person, do you
23 A. He was the camp commander's driver. Officially, he was a driver,
24 but he used to do other things, too.
25 Q. And when were you told that there was a delegation arriving?
1 A. They said the next day.
2 Q. Do you recall the date of this delegation?
3 A. I believe it was in the second half of July, but I couldn't say
4 for sure. Maybe the end of July, beginning of August. I'm not sure
6 Q. Did you see the delegation?
7 A. Yes, they passed outside the glass house and the restaurant.
8 Q. Approximately how many people formed this delegation?
9 A. It was a large group of people. There were people from Prijedor
10 there, there were bodyguards, police officers, military. There were some
11 younger people wearing suits there. There were the police, the army. So
12 I could only assume that those young men wearing suits were not
13 politicians, but rather bodyguards. And then the policemen and the
14 military. I think Simo Srdic was there, too. Simo Drljaca. I can't
15 remember any other names. It has been ten years.
16 Q. The transcript reads Simo Srdic. Is that what you said?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who did you recognise in the delegation from Banja Luka?
19 A. Actually, I didn't really myself recognise, but I think the person
20 walking at the head of this group was the one that was being paid the most
21 attention to. And that was a rather short man wearing a dark suit, so I
22 would have assumed that that would have been Brdjanin, the president of
23 the autonomous region.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to what he would have
25 assumed. That's not appropriate.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND:
3 Q. Who else -- was there anyone from Banja Luka that you recognised?
4 A. No. There were persons there who were from Banja Luka. I might
5 have seen them in 1991 appearing on TV on some political talk shows, but
6 not directly, not that I could really name any of them myself.
7 Q. Do you know a person called Predrag Radic?
8 A. I had heard of him as a politician before the war. He worked for
9 the SDS, but I didn't know him personally.
10 Q. Had you ever seen Mr. Radic on television?
11 A. Yes, that was the Banja Luka TV. That was their TV. And mostly
12 only their political leaders appeared on that TV station.
13 Q. Who did you see from Prijedor in the delegation?
14 A. I said that I thought that Simo Srdic was there as well as Simo
15 Drljaca, Milomir Stakic, Kovacevic, the elite. I don't think the entire
16 Crisis Staff was there, but most of the Crisis Staff was. That is to say,
17 from the president of the municipality to the secretary of the
18 municipality, the commander of the police, the commander of security at
19 the camp, and they were always the welcome committee before the war and
20 during the war as well.
21 Q. You said that Brk had mentioned Brdjanin as being part of this
22 delegation that was going to visit the camp.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And you mentioned a moment ago that you saw a short man leading
25 the delegation who you assumed was Brdjanin.
1 A. Correct.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: You sustained the objection regarding that, Your
3 Honour. It has been asked again.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, when did you first see the person Brdjanin, who
6 you referred to as the person Brdjanin?
7 MR. ACKERMAN: He never said that he saw a person Brdjanin or
8 referred to a person as Brdjanin.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, I will be more clear --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him on television.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. When was the first time you saw him on television?
13 A. That was in 1991, the beginnings of the political parties and the
14 election campaign and the elections. The second half of 1991, I think it
15 was. Every day, or rather every night, this was debated, the Banja Luka
17 Q. What do you -- what was the nature of his -- of what you heard him
18 say on the television?
19 A. Like all other politicians favouring the greater Serbia, he also
20 advocated the strengthening of the Serb Democratic Party, and in that
21 framework already in the first half of 1991 it was no longer only the
22 strengthening and promotion of the SDS, but also -- but in practice,
23 promoting life in a single nation state. This started first in individual
24 towns like Prijedor, but afterwards, it became just as cleansed as they
25 had wanted it to be, and as they had promoted it. In the assembly in
1 Sarajevo and everywhere else including Banja Luka through their henchmen.
2 Q. How did what Mr. Brdjanin was saying make you feel?
3 A. Not only I. At first, we all thought that it was like a movie, an
4 ugly movie, because it is repulsive that people who lived with you until
5 that day, from that day onwards recognised you to be the enemy, and not
6 just any old enemy, an enemy that you had to get rid of. And history
7 showed that we were a people who simply had their hands in their pockets.
8 I'm referring to non-Serbs. Individuals are individuals. Perhaps
9 individuals should have been eliminated, but not in general terms, the
10 entire population, not that everything and everybody that was not Serb had
11 to be removed.
12 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, I now want to turn to another topic.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Prosecution
14 Exhibit 1263.
15 Q. What is the date of the document?
16 A. The 22nd of June, 1992.
17 Q. Who is the document -- what is the signature block on the
19 A. President, Radoslav Brdjanin.
20 Q. What is the title block on the top left-hand corner of the
22 A. The Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of
23 Krajina, Crisis Staff, Banja Luka.
24 Q. What is handwritten below the date, the handwritten text?
25 A. "For immediate delivery to the president of the municipal Crisis
2 Q. Can you please read the first paragraph and the first -- the first
3 sentence and the first paragraph of the decision.
4 A. I do apologise. The first sentence of the first paragraph or
5 which first sentence, or the first sentence before it says "decision"?
6 Q. I wasn't clear. The first sentence before it says "decision."
7 A. Now I understand. "At its meeting held on the 22nd of June, 1992,
8 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina adopted the following
9 decision: All executive posts, posts involving a likely flow of
10 information, posts involving the protection of public property, that is,
11 all posts of importance to the functioning of the economy may only be held
12 by personnel of Serbian nationality.
13 "This applies to all socially-owned enterprises, share holding
14 companies, state institutions, public service enterprises, ministries of
15 the interior, and the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 "These posts may not be held by employees of Serbian nationality
17 who have not confirmed by plebiscite or who in their minds are not
18 ideologically clear that the Serbian democratic party is the sole
19 representative of the Serbian people."
20 Q. Did you see this decision at your work prior to your arrest on the
21 24th of June?
22 A. No.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
24 Exhibit 1174.
25 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, this is the first of a number of documents I want
1 to show you. I simply want to ask you whether you know the person named
2 in this decision who is being dismissed from his post, and whether you
3 know the person that was appointed to the position, and whether you know
4 the fate of the person named as being dismissed.
5 So this is a decision from the executive committee of the Serbian
6 Municipality of Prijedor dismissing Miroslav Turnusek from the post of
7 director of the socially owned company Mira Cikota. Do you know this
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What is his ethnicity?
11 A. He was a Croat. He was president of the committee of the league
12 of communists, and his secretary was the other man underneath, Topic
13 Ranko, who is an ethnic Serb, and he took his position in this cookie
14 factory of Mira Cikota, which was within the factory of Josip Kras,
15 Zagreb. He ended up in Omarska. He survived. I think he is in Zagreb
16 now. I think he works as a director in Zbona [phoen]. He has a degree in
17 chemistry. He worked as a chemistry teacher at the Prijedor high school
18 before he was not engaged in politics.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
21 Exhibit P1175 [sic].
22 For the record, Your Honour, P1174 is dated the 2nd of May, 1992.
23 Q. Sir, again, this is another decision issued by the executive
24 committee of the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor on the 2nd of May, 1992.
25 And it's a decision dismissing Idriz Jakupovic from the post of president
1 of the Prijedor municipal staff for the reception of refugees and
2 appointing Jovan Vukoja to the post. Do you know Idriz Jakupovic?
3 A. Yes, I did know him. He was director of the social welfare centre
4 for many years before the war. He ended up in Omarska. First they broke
5 his arm, either his left or his right arm. I can't say. Then he was
6 taken in the direction of the red house. He never got out of Omarska.
7 Jovan Vukoja, a teacher from the Rade Kondic elementary school, who worked
8 with my father replaced him. I think he comes from Montenegro, but he is
9 an ethnic Serb, an orthodox person.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, just to clarify it, when he says "I
14 think he comes from Montenegro but he is an ethnic Serb" he is referring
15 to Jovan Vukoja. Can you tell us what was the ethnicity of Idriz
16 Jakupovic, just to make sure that we are not confusing persons here.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I should have asked.
18 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, what was Idriz Jakupovic's ethnicity?
19 A. He was a Muslim.
20 Q. And is it correct that Jovan --
21 A. Vukoja.
22 Q. -- Vukoja is from Montenegro and a Serb by ethnicity?
23 A. Or Herzegovina, or Herzegovina. Perhaps is that area between
24 Montenegro and Herzegovina. I'm not sure on which side of the border.
25 I'm not sure. But he's an ethnic Serb at any rate.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
2 Exhibit P1178. You've got that in front of you.
3 Q. This is another decision dated the 4th of May issued by the
4 executive committee of the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor. It's a
5 decision dismissing Sabiha --
6 A. Sabiha Obradovic.
7 Q. -- from the post of secretary of the Prijedor Municipal conference
8 of the Red Cross?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Do you know this woman?
11 A. Yes, I personally knew her.
12 Q. What is her ethnicity?
13 A. Muslim. She was married to the former president of the executive
14 council, Obradovic was his last name. Sule was his nickname. They parted
15 before the war. They had two children. Both sons were trained and were
16 with the Serb army. One was doing his military service and other the one
17 was on the reserve force. No, sorry. One son. It was this one son. I'm
18 sorry, I got confused with another person. And the daughter was another
19 person. Sabiha was in Omarska, survived, and is alive until the present
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P1181.
23 Q. This is a decision dated the 4th of May, again, from the executive
24 committee of the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor. It's a decision
25 dismissing Esad Mehmedagic from the post of deputy municipal public
1 attorney and appointing Slobodan Radulj to the post. First, do you know
2 Esad Mehmedagic?
3 A. Yes, I knew him. Because at first, he was a judge in the town of
4 Prijedor, and then he was the municipal public attorney. He was a man who
5 had trouble with his eyesight. He was almost blind. His wife drove him
6 to court every morning, and he had to wait to be taken into the court
7 house because he could not see. He ended up in Omarska, accused of being
8 a sniper shooter. He was taken with Seric and Ago Sadikovic, who is my
9 aunt's son-in-law. They were taken the same day in the direction of the
10 black house. Slobodan Radulj, I know the name, I know the face. But I
11 never met him in person. But I knew him by sight from town. Slobodan
12 Radulj was a Serb.
13 Q. You mentioned the name Seric and Ago Sadikovic and you said they
14 were taken towards the black house, this was how it was translated to me.
15 A. Maybe I made a mistake. I actually wanted to say the red house,
16 in the direction of the red house.
17 Q. This person that you mentioned, Seric, do you know his full
19 A. Nedzad Seric is his name, judge of the municipal court in
20 Prijedor. His wife was a Serb. He lived in a mixed marriage. He had two
22 Q. What is --
23 A. He was president of the elections commission during the March
24 elections. When were the elections? In March 1992. He was president of
25 the election commission. I think that's what this body was called, that
1 the body that followed the election process in Prijedor from a judicial
2 point of view or a legal point of view.
3 Q. What was his ethnicity?
4 A. He was a Muslim.
5 Q. And Ago Sadikovic, what was his ethnicity?
6 A. Muslim.
7 Q. Did either Esad Mehmedagic, Nedzad Seric, or Ago Sadikovic survive
8 the camp?
9 A. No.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Prosecution
11 Exhibit P1188.
12 Q. This is a decision dated the 5th of May, 1992, from the executive
13 committee of the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor. It's a decision
14 dismissing Vahid Ceric from the post of assistant commander for the
15 organisation of mobilisation and personnel affairs.
16 A. I'm sorry, excuse me. I cannot hear interpretation into Bosnian,
17 to my own language.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Make sure, usher, that he has not pressed the wrong
19 number or moved the number. Then change his headphone, yes.
20 Can you hear me now? Can you hear what I'm saying translated into
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you hear anything actually?
24 THE WITNESS: [In English] I hear you. Now I hear the
25 interpreters as well.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The problem seems to have been solved.
2 Ms. Sutherland, sorry for that interruption. You've just referred the --
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'll repeat my question.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Sir, this is --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Reference Exhibit 1118, we are 1188. And that,
8 incidentally, for the record, it's wrong in the transcript because you
9 reported having said could the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 1118.
10 In actual fact he is being shown supposedly P1188. Correct?
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. Sir, do you have a document dated the 5th of May, 1992, with the
13 number 02-111-62/92?
14 A. No, 02-111-62/92. Yes. That's right. Yes.
15 Q. That is a decision by the executive committee of the Serbian
16 Municipality of Prijedor dismissing Vahid Ceric from the post of assistant
17 commander for the organisation of mobilisation and personnel affairs?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. And it states that Major Radmilo Zeljaja shall be responsible for
20 its implementation. First, do you know Vahid Ceric?
21 A. Yes, I knew him very well. We cooperated. He worked at the TO
22 headquarters and I worked at the secretariat for national defence. He was
23 a Muslim, and at the same time he was the first victim of the authorities
24 of the town of Prijedor, and he was taken to Stari Gradiska or some other
25 camp, together with Fikret Kadiric, commander of the police station from
1 earlier on.
2 Q. Do you know where he went after Stari Gradiska?
3 A. He ended up in Manjaca, and he's still alive. He survived the
5 Q. Major Radmilo Zeljaja, yesterday you recognised him on a video
6 that was shown to you. What was his post? What was his position? I'm
8 A. I met him before the war, several years before the war. I can't
9 remember exactly when because Bosko Deviak, Captain Bosko Deviak was in
10 his place, but then he was transferred to a place near Foca. I know this
11 because we worked together. Captain Bosko Deviak was in charge of the
12 execution of the mobilisation and personnel affairs. That was the same
13 post in the JNA, and then he was replaced by Radmilo Zeljaja, just as
14 Colonel Muharem Efendic was also replaced by Lieutenant Colonel
15 Arsic. So that's why I know Radmilo Zeljaja from the years before the
16 war. He was a person I worked with.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Prosecution
18 Exhibit P1189.
19 Q. This is a decision dated the 5th of May, 1992, from the executive
20 committee of the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor. It's a decision
21 dismissing Jasminka Hadzibegovic from the post of deputy social attorney
22 of self-management. Do you know this person?
23 A. Yes, personally.
24 Q. What is her ethnicity?
25 A. Muslim. Trevo Hadzibegovic was her husband. I recognised him on
1 the photograph yesterday -- no, not photograph. The video from the glass
2 house. He and her brother, she was also in Omarska, deputy of Nona Samic,
3 former teacher, and then before the war he was -- just a minute. He was
4 deputy social attorney of self-management -- or rather, he was social
5 attorney of self-management, and Jasminka was his deputy.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
7 Exhibit 1191. I'm sorry, 1191 and 1193.
8 Q. First the decision P1191 is a decision dated the 7th of May from
9 the executive committee of the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor. It's a
10 decision relieving Dzemal Sefer as director of the PBS which is the
11 commercial bank of Sarajevo main branch office in Prijedor. Do you know
12 this person?
13 A. No, no.
14 Q. Looking at P1193, this is a ruling dated the 7th of May, 1992,
15 from the executive committee of the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor.
16 It's a ruling appointing Milan Nisevic as acting manager of the Prijedor
17 main branch office of the PBS Privredna Bank of Sarajevo to the post. Do
18 you know this person?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What's his ethnicity?
21 A. Serb. For many years, he was president of the branch office of
22 Investbanka [phoen] from Sarajevo in Prijedor. In 1975, 1976, I was
23 president of the youth organisation in the part of town where I lived, and
24 at the football club I was vice-president, and he was president of the
25 Radnik football club.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Prosecution
2 Exhibit P1198.
3 Q. This is a decision dated the 13th of May from the executive
4 committee of the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor. It is a decision
5 appointing Nikola Plemic as acting director the Borac work unit in
6 Prijedor. Do you know this person?
7 A. Yes, I do. He replaced professor Vehbija Dzafic who had been
8 taken to Omarska, and he survived the camp. He's still alive. Plemic
9 Nikola is the father of Sale Plemic who went with me to the technical
10 school in Prijedor. He was retired, and he was a Serb by nationality. He
11 was a retired director of the Borac work unit.
12 Q. So he was brought out of retirement to become acting director?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The professor that he replaced, what was his ethnicity?
15 A. Vehbija Dzafic was a Muslim.
16 Q. Milan Niskovic, the Serb referred to in the last decision, was he
17 retired or was he holding that post before he was given -- was he working
18 or was he retired in 1992?
19 A. Milan Niskovic was retired. I don't know exactly when he retired
20 what year, but I think probably several years just before the war. He was
21 an elderly person. I couldn't tell, he may be about 80 years old now, if
22 he's still alive.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
24 Exhibit P1201 and also P1200.
25 Q. Looking first at 1201, it's a decision of the 13th of May, 1992
1 from the executive committee of the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor
2 dismissing Bozidar Bajic from the post of head of the department for
3 economic and public services in the municipal secretariat for economic and
4 public services. Do you know this person?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is his ethnicity?
7 A. He's a Serb. He's a Serb who is married to a Muslim woman. First
8 name Ramizi. I don't know her maiden name. She was a Muslim.
9 Q. Looking now at Exhibit P1200, which is a decision of the 13th of
10 May, 1992, from the executive committee of the Serbian Municipality of
11 Prijedor, it's a decision of appointing Ilija Ecim as acting head of the
12 department for economic and public services in the municipal secretariat
13 for economic and public services. Do you know this person?
14 A. Yes. He was a Serb, and for a while he was the director of the
15 Trg Proda [phoen] company in Prijedor. During the war or just before the
16 war, he was in the municipality. I couldn't say which organ exactly, but
17 he worked for the municipality.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
19 Exhibit P1247.
20 Q. This is a decision dated the 8th of June, 1992, from the acting
21 director Ranko Sikman of the health services manager of the Dr. Mladen
22 Stojanovic medical centre in Prijedor. It's a decision divesting
23 Dr. Osman Mahmuljin, a specialist of internal medicine, of his duties as
24 vice-president of the board of directors of the Dr. Mladen Stojanovic
25 medical centre. Do you know this doctor?
1 A. Yes, I used to know him. He ended up in Omarska. He had been
2 brought to Omarska, and he never came out.
3 Q. What is his ethnicity?
4 A. Muslim. A Muslim. He never got out of Omarska alive. Perhaps I
5 should say that.
6 Q. Do you know what happened to him in Omarska?
7 A. He was taken towards the red house, as most of the others, but he
8 wasn't there when the names were called out towards the end of July, and
9 he did not attend lunch.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
11 Exhibit 1284, and also P1292.
12 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, this is an order dated the 2nd of July, 1992 with a
13 signature block, president of the Crisis Staff, Milomir Stakic, and a
14 signature. It is an order. Can you please read out the text of the
16 A. "All organs, enterprises, and communities are ordered to terminate
17 the employment of workers who have participated in the armed rebellion,
18 and who are currently in Omarska and Keraterm.
19 "Information about these workers is to be submitted by the
20 Prijedor public security station on the request of the above-mentioned
21 organs, enterprises, and communities.
22 "The public security station and the competent municipal
23 inspection service will be responsible for the execution of this order.
24 "This order shall enter into effect on the day it is issued.
25 "President of the Crisis Staff Milomir Stakic."
1 Q. Would you look now at Prosecution Exhibit P1292. This is a
2 document dated the 11th of July, 1992, signed by the chief of the public
3 security station in Prijedor, Drljaca. And it's addressed to the work
4 organisation, Dr. Mladen Stojanovic medical centre in Prijedor. Can you
5 read the start of the document, re: verification of information-submitted.
6 Could you read the first sentence.
7 A. "Please find enclosed a list of your employees who are in some of
8 the refugee camps in accordance with Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff
9 order number 01-023-49/92 dated the 2nd of July, 1992, as follows:"
10 Q. Does it then name ten people under the heading "general hospital"?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then it names seven people under "Prijedor health centre"?
13 A. Yes, it does.
14 Q. It also names one person under the pharmacy in Prijedor? I'm
15 sorry, two people. One from the occupational medicine institute, and one
16 from the work community Zajednicke Sluzbe?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Looking at those names in Exhibit P1292, are you able to tell the
19 Court the fate of any of the people named in that document? And if so,
20 could you please give the name of the person, their ethnicity, and what
21 you know happened to them.
22 A. Bahonjic, Jakub Islam, I think he was an engineer, radiologist,
23 something like that. An x-ray technician. He disappeared in Omarska.
24 Q. What's his ethnicity?
25 A. He was a Muslim. Vehbija Ibrahim Beglerbegovic, a doctor, a
1 Muslim, he only spent two days in Omarska. The inmates [as translated] of
2 Omarska took him out of Omarska because he had been a doctor in the
3 Omarska area for a long time so the locals got him out of the camp after
4 two days, but his brother Rizo Beglerbegovic stayed behind. Esad Osman
5 Crnkic I don't know him. Emir Aziz Blazevic I don't that man either.
6 Meho Muharem Arnautovic, no. Omer Adnan Ekinovic, I don't know whether he
7 was an x-ray technician or something like that.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... could you give me the names
9 of the people that you know of something that happened to them. The ones
10 that are listed, if you can give me the number and where they appear on
11 the document, under which heading.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Can I just interrupt real quick, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: It's line -- page 27, line 1, what the witness said
15 was the inhabitants of Omarska took him out of Omarska, not the inmates.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. I'm sorry, I will rephrase my last question. In relation to the
19 people that are listed under the general hospital, you've mentioned
20 something in relation to Islam Bahonjic and Ibrahim Beglerbegovic. Do you
21 know any of those other people listed from numbers 3 to 10? Do you know
22 any of those people?
23 A. Number 1, Bahonjic Jakub Islam, I've already said he was an x-ray
24 technician or an engineer, I'm not sure. He was killed in Omarska.
25 Number 2, Beglerbegovic Vehbija Ibrahim, a doctor, only spent two days in
1 Omarska, and then the locals got him out of the camp, the inhabitants of
2 Omarska. And then number 6, Ekinovic Omer Adnan, also an x-ray technician
3 or an engineer, he worked with x-ray, he was killed in the white house.
4 Neither he nor his father ever got out alive, and he was the best man at
5 Slavko Ecimovic's wedding. That's what he was. Number 8, Sadikovic Hasib
6 Esad, also a doctor, it was an organisation called Medecins sans
7 Frontiere, I think that was the organisation he belonged to. He was taken
8 from Omarska together with the people from Keraterm, and he never got back
9 to us.
10 I'll try with the Prijedor health centre now.
11 Q. Pause there. Adnan Ekinovic, what was his ethnicity?
12 A. Muslim. Sadikovic Esad, Muslim.
13 Q. Of the people listed under Prijedor health centre numbered 1 to 7,
14 do you know any of these people?
15 A. I'll have a look now. Harambasic Mujaga Hasiba, that's a woman.
16 She was a dentist. Her nickname was Biba. She was a Muslim. She came to
17 Omarska, and she survived. Balic Mahmut Uzeir, he was an accountant, he
18 survived the Omarska camp, and he's alive today.
19 Q. Is he number 4?
20 A. Yes, number 4. I apologise, number 4. He's a Muslim. I don't
21 know the other names. I don't know their fate nor do I know the persons.
22 Q. Under the heading "occupational medicine institute," do you know
23 this person, Rufad Suljanovic?
24 A. Suljanovic Vejsil, a Dr. Rufad, he was killed. He was a Muslim.
25 Dr. Osman Mahmuljin, I've talked about him already, and he too was killed.
1 Actually, the only doctor to emerge from Omarska alive was Dr. Mensur
3 Q. Yes, you mentioned that in your testimony yesterday.
4 A. There is Dr. Sikora Zeljko missing from this list. Dr. Jusuf
5 Pasic, Dr. Enis Begic. I can't remember any of the other ones now.
6 Q. This document is dated the 11th of July, 1992.
7 If I can turn now to the last topic I wish to deal with. Can you
8 be shown a document which doesn't have a Prosecution Exhibit number yet.
9 And it can be given the next exhibit number, which is P1134. This was
10 disclosed as Document 4.2148.
11 Sir, this document is dated Pale, 17th of August, 1992.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The block on the top left-hand corner reads: "Serbian Republic of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina government commission for inspecting collection centres
15 and other facilities for captives in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina." And this is a report of the commission on the inspection of
17 collection centres and other facilities for captives in the Autonomous
18 Region of Krajina.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review this document in the last
21 few days prior to your testimony?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. If we turn to the first page, it can be seen that the commission
24 inspected facilities between the 10th and 15th of August as follows:
25 Trnopolje, Omarska, and Keraterm in Prijedor; Manjaca near Banja Luka;
1 Krings in Sanski Most; and a secondary school centre and primary school in
2 Bosanski Samac.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When did the majority of people leave the Omarska camp? You said
5 you went to Trnopolje on the 6th of August, 1992.
6 A. Yes. A group left for Trnopolje, and another group left for
7 Manjaca on the same day. That was the 6th of August.
8 Q. So approximately how many people, if you know, were in the group
9 that went to Trnopolje, and how many people, if you know, were in the
10 group that went to Manjaca approximately?
11 A. I couldn't give you the figures really. I think two-thirds left
12 for Manjaca and only one-third left for Trnopolje.
13 Q. Were you aware of approximately how many people were in the
14 Omarska camp?
15 A. About 3.000 I would say, on average 3.000, with slight
16 fluctuations up to 5 per cent. Those who were newly brought to the camp
17 or those who had disappeared during the week. About 3.000. We counted
18 the group in the glass house, a hundred people passed through on a daily
19 basis -- a hundred groups passed through on a daily basis to get their
20 lunch, and each group contained about 30 people. Of course, I'm not
21 including the people who had been so badly beaten that they couldn't leave
22 their accommodation, so sometimes they would steal a slice of bread and
23 just take the slice of bread back to where those people lay.
24 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, when you left for Trnopolje and when the other
25 group of people left for Manjaca, are you aware of anybody else that
1 remained in the Omarska camp on the 6th of August, 1992?
2 A. Yes. We thought there were about a hundred people there, perhaps
3 a bit more, perhaps a bit less. But thereabouts, roughly a hundred.
4 Perhaps more. I don't know the figure really.
5 Q. Do you know how long they stayed in the camp for?
6 A. No, they stayed after we had left, and I don't know until when
7 exactly they stayed. I had my own problems to worry about, where I should
8 hide. And how I should take care of my family, so I really don't know,
9 until what point in time those people stayed there, and there were several
10 women in that group, too.
11 Q. Turning to page -- the page with the ERN number 01245063. I think
12 it's numbered 2 at the top of the page in your language, a document in
13 your language.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you see the third paragraph down. I will read the paragraph
16 to you. And the heading is "II, Omarska near Prijedor." The third
17 paragraph reads: "The prisoners are kept in a hall containing military
18 camp beds and orderly toilet facilities. Food is provided for them in the
19 workers' canteen. The food is prepared in the mine's central building and
20 is provided on a self-service basis. A first aid point is located in one
21 of the offices and is staffed by a physician and a nurse to administer any
22 first aid that may be required. While in more serious cases the prisoners
23 are transferred to the medical centres in Banja Luka and Prijedor."
24 First, did you sleep on a military-camp bed when you were in
25 Omarska when you were detained there for six weeks?
1 A. No.
2 Q. What sort of bedding were you provided with?
3 A. Ceramic tiles. My group, the group that was staying where I was
4 staying, we didn't have a roof over our head at all. For six weeks.
5 Q. The toilet facilities, were they orderly?
6 A. The one where I was staying in the glass house, it was sort of
7 tidy, because the guards used it. The guards and those who were with
8 them. But this didn't happen on a daily basis. Popovic's shift, and
9 Ranko, the electrician's shift, it wouldn't happen. So for 20 minutes you
10 wouldn't be able to use it, because they refused to use the same toilet
11 that we were using. That is, we were not allowed to use the same toilet
12 they were using at the same time.
13 Q. You said that you were detained in the white house in the first
14 couple of days when you arrived in Omarska. What were the toilet
15 facilities in the white house?
16 A. In the morning hours, we would just use the field, the meadow
17 behind the white house. We would come out in groups of ten, only to pass
18 water. We used a plastic jerry can, the top of which had been sawn-off to
19 do the rest, at least during the three days that I spent in the white
20 house. I once went to the toilet in the hangar which had been flooded,
21 and it all came up to the surface. So there was -- it was flooded up to a
22 height of 15 centimetres in the hangar.
23 Q. Were you allowed to go to the toilet when you wished when you were
24 in the white house?
25 A. No. No. We used a jerry can that was there to do it. During the
1 night and most often, we stayed there because we had learned from those
2 who had asked the guards to go to the toilet and they never came back, so
3 we were gripped by fear of death which was stronger than our need to go to
4 the toilet.
5 Q. Now, the food that was provided in the workers' canteen, were
6 you able to access food on a self-service basis while you were detained in
7 the camp?
8 A. That's correct. We would take some bread and whatever was on the
9 plate, we would take the bread, we would squeeze it for the liquid to be
10 absorbed, and then it would come out. I never sat at a table and ate for
11 six consecutive weeks, nor did most of the others in most of the cases.
12 There was only one day the TV watching day, we would have beans. There
13 was more beans than water on that day. But everything else you did in
14 passing or in whichever room you were taken to. Lunch would be as brief
15 as 13 or 14 seconds, and we had to do all of this running.
16 Q. So how many meals a day were you provided?
17 A. One eighth of bread and whatever was on the plate and that was all
18 we had for the whole day, and sometimes not even that.
19 Q. So that was once a day. So you weren't able to attend this
20 self-service canteen whenever you felt like it to get food?
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. The first aid point which says in the following paragraph, a first
23 aid point is located in one of the offices and is staffed by a physician
24 and a nurse to administer any first aid that may be required. Do you
25 recall there being a first aid point while you were detained in the
2 A. No.
3 Q. So as we can see from the first page of this report, the
4 inspection occurred between the 10th and 15th of August, 1992; and from
5 what you have just testified to, that is after the 3.000-odd men and women
6 had been transferred out of the camp. And you said that approximately a
7 hundred or so people were left in the camp. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with that document. Your Honour, I
10 noticed the time. I was going to take the witness through the bundle of
11 photographs to get him to identify a number of them. So I would like to
12 do that, if I can, for five minutes after the break before the
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfectly okay with us, I suppose.
15 Mr. Ackerman? Okay, no problem. So we'll have a short break of 20
16 minutes, and then we will have the photos prepared for the witness. We
17 are going to have a short break. Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, I now want to show you a number of photographs to
23 see whether you can recognise what's in those photographs. The first
24 photograph is ERN number 02123685. If that can be marked P1128-5?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: .5. No, .6 it would be.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: .6.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Because .5 was 9557.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: And also, 02123686, which can be 1128.7.
4 Q. Sir, looking at P1128.6, do you recognise what's in that
6 A. Yes, that's the mosque. What its name? It's the minaret is on
7 the ground.
8 Q. And looking at P1128.7.
9 A. This is also the mosque, but viewed from a different angle. I
10 think it's Donja Puharska, yes. Donja Puharska mosque.
11 Q. Looking at the next photograph, ERN number 02123684, if that can
12 be given P1128.8. Do you know -- do you recognise what's in that
14 A. This entrance reminds me of the Catholic church in Prijedor, but
15 this photograph is -- well, I don't know. But at any rate, this reminds
16 me of the entrance into the Catholic church in Prijedor near the theatre.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness now be shown P1128.3 --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: .3, yes.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Do you recognise what's in that photograph?
21 A. The Zarko Zgonjanin military barracks.
22 Q. Where were the barracks situated?
23 A. This is part of Urije, actually it belongs to Donja Puharska.
24 It's on the road between Prijedor and Dubica, on the right-hand side.
25 Sorry, let me just show this. These are the offices of the commander of
1 the barracks. This part here was the mess and the kitchen, when the
2 active-duty people were there, and then also up there were the dormitories
3 when it was a recruitment centre. And then this is where active-duty
4 officers had their offices. Because it wasn't a training centre any
5 longer. 4777 was the unit that was there, and later on it was a motorised
6 brigade. The building where I went, if not every other day, then at least
7 once a week.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown the next
9 photograph, ERN number 0039-2311. If that can be given Exhibit Number
11 Q. Do you know what's in that photograph?
12 A. The same building, the same building. There was yet another one
13 here, another military post.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The witness will have to speak slower and give
15 the numbers again.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down, please.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. What's the name of that building again?
19 A. There was a small building here where two military post codes
20 were, and they made up war units. That is to say, 2982 and 2346, both
21 Partizan brigades. We spoke about that yesterday. So here in the yard
22 were warehouses, and in the left-hand corner was the warehouse of the
23 secretariat of national defence where the civil protection equipment was.
24 Q. You said that's the same as the other building, in the other
25 photograph. The Zarko Zgonjanin barracks?
1 A. Yes. Yes, but it's a different angle.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown the next
3 photograph, ER number 0038-9747.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you sure of the number, Ms. Sutherland, because
5 I -- 9747? Yes, okay.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: It has got the --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes, yes. This will be 1128.10.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: 10.
9 Q. What is shown in that photograph?
10 A. The new elementary school in Trnopolje. This is where the library
11 was. That's where my father worked towards the end of his life. That's
12 where the school library was.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next photograph,
14 ERN 0214-7092, which will be 1128.11.
15 Q. What is shown in that photograph?
16 A. This is Trnopolje again, and this building is the cultural centre.
17 At first, it was for special events, and also it was used as a sports
18 hall. This was the local commune, and then yesterday I told you about
19 apartments for teachers, and that's where the old school was and where the
20 store was in 1992.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next photograph,
22 ERN 02147093, which will become P1128.12.
23 Q. What is shown in that photograph?
24 A. This is an extension of the other photograph. This is where the
25 local commune was, and then the apartments of the teachers. That's where
1 they were while the old school was still there in 1992. When I came here
2 this is where the clinic was, where Dr. Idriz worked. I don't know his
3 last name, and Azra Strikovic, who was the veterinarian. This part, as I
4 already mentioned, I slept in this part. But this is the classroom where
5 my father worked as a teacher 30 years before that, in the 1960s, so this
6 was a great misfortune for me.
7 Q. You mentioned the vet Azra Strikovic. Do you know what her maiden
8 name was?
9 A. I think it starts with a B. Her sister Alma went to the technical
10 school, but she was younger than me. She lived in Urije near my house. I
11 can't remember. Her sister's name is Alma, and she is a mechanical
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next photograph
14 ERN number 02147091, which will become 1128.13.
15 Q. Do you recognise what's in that photograph?
16 A. This is the Red Cross building where we got passes in order to get
17 out of the Trnopolje centre under the patronage of the Prijedor Red
18 Cross. This is the yard of the cultural centre that I referred to, and
19 before the war, this was a small village cafe. I think Aika was the
20 owner. This is where the Red Cross was, and this is where the office was
21 where permits were issued to leave Trnopolje.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next photograph,
23 ERN 02006269, which will be 1128.14. And 02006265, which will be 1128.15.
24 Q. Do you know what -- first of all, looking at P1128.14, do you know
25 what's depicted in that photograph?
1 A. Yes, this is Keraterm.
2 Q. And P1128.15. What is shown in that photograph?
3 A. The brick factory is behind this, yes, yes. I think that this is
4 also the entrance into Keraterm. And behind it is the brick factory. My
5 parents' house is somewhere around here about 500 metres away from here in
6 the street of Dmitrije Tucovic. Was, at any rate.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown photograph 01002416
8 which will be 1128.16.
9 Q. What is shown in that photograph, if you know?
10 A. I think this is Keraterm, yes. Yes, it is Keraterm.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this is a model that was
13 Could the witness please be shown the next photograph, 01002444,
14 which will be P1128.17.
15 Q. And that is the same photograph that you picked out on P1.1
16 yesterday when you were shown --
17 A. I can't remember the number.
18 Q. -- with the photographs around it.
19 A. Yes, I remember now. Yes.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next photograph
21 ERN 0040-9596, which will be P1128.18.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Model of Omarska. The
23 administrative building, the white house, the red house, and the hangar.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND:
25 Q. The administration building being the small building on the right
1 as you're looking at the photograph; the hangar building being the big
2 long red building to the left; the white house being the white building in
3 the rear of the photograph; and the red house, the small building in the
4 back left-hand corner. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next photograph
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, Ms. Sutherland, because I
9 notice that on this photo, top right corner, there's already with
10 reference to another case an exhibit number.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry. We will have that -- we
12 will --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you need to obliterate it or --
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: We'll provide a fresh copy of that photograph.
15 That should have been taken off before the photograph was reproduced. I'm
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Please take note of it.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: The next photograph is 02147090, which will
19 become 1128.19.
20 Q. Sir, what's depicted in that photograph?
21 A. Benkovac in Kozara, the road between Prijedor and Mrakovica.
22 This is where the dormitories were, and this part here was the restaurant,
23 and this here was the headquarters of the youth drive -- oh, I'm sorry for
24 speaking so fast.
25 These were the dormitories, and in this part, this is where the
1 bathrooms and toilets were. You can't see it in this photograph. Here
2 were dormitories as well. This building here was a restaurant with a
3 kitchen, and then there was a clinic there, and then here was the
4 headquarters of the youth work drives. No, sorry, this was for
5 recreation, billiards, table tennis, et cetera. And this here was a
6 stage. That is where the command of the youth work drive would go out and
7 line up all the young people who came there to work. I don't know what
8 this is out here because this is where the sports fields were. And then
9 on the right-hand side, further to the right, there are soccer fields and
10 also volleyball terrains.
11 Q. And the youth centre as we discussed yesterday was pre-1992?
12 A. It was built in 1973 or 1974 because I was in high school then. I
13 was just about to graduate when we worked up there. These were local
14 youth work drives. It was closed sometime in the 1980s because there
15 wasn't sufficient financial support.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next three
17 photographs, 0039-2375, which will become 1128.20; and 0039-2397, which
18 will become 1128.21; and 0039-2402 which will become 1128.22.
19 Q. Just briefly, looking at 1128.20, what is in that photograph?
20 Where is this photograph taken?
21 A. This is Benkovac. This is the restaurant. This is the stage that
22 I referred to already. To the left is the building of the headquarters,
23 and this is where the clinic was. That's where young people who would
24 have injuries would stay for a while, and then this is the restaurant
25 where they had meals.
1 Q. Looking at the next photograph, 1128.21, where is that photograph
3 A. This is also Benkovac. These are the dormitories. This should be
4 the clinic and the medical centre, and this should be the kitchen. And
5 right here, here, is where the bathroom and the toilets should be.
6 Q. Finally looking at 1128.22, where is that photograph taken?
7 A. This is also Benkovac, and the dormitories. This is the
8 headquarters that I referred to, and then dormitories, and then the
9 restaurant down here, and then down there were the bathroom and toilets,
10 and over here was the plateau for the lineup of the brigades and units.
11 Q. Looking at the next photograph numbered 0039-6503 [Realtime
12 transcript read in error "00396502"], which will be P1128.23, this is a
13 still of the video that you saw yesterday.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say, Ms. Sutherland, 0039-6502?
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: 6503.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, because in the transcript, it shows
17 0039-6502, and it needs to be corrected.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND:
19 Q. Sir, as I just said, that was a still taken from the video that
20 was shown to you yesterday. Can you point to the people in the photograph
21 that you recognise?
22 A. This is Dr. Kovacevic. This is the person I didn't recognise
23 yesterday either. And this is Simo Drljaca. And here in the corner is
24 Nada Balaban. I remember from yesterday that she was wearing a pink
1 Q. So that is Kovacevic on the left, an unknown gentleman in the
2 middle, Drljaca the third man, and the woman in the corner is Ms. Balaban?
3 A. Correct.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next photograph,
5 0039-4563, which will be 1128.24.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Simo Drljaca and Dr. Kovacevic.
7 This is Dr. Kovacevic, and this is Simo Drljaca.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Kovacevic on the left and Drljaca on the right. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Going back to -- I've finished with that photograph. Going back
12 to the two photographs that you were shown of the mosque in Prijedor,
13 P1128.6 and P1128.7, do you know when that mosque was damaged or
15 A. I think it was the month of August, around midnight, or rather in
16 the early morning hours after midnight, because I was in Petrov Gaj when
17 two explosions occurred within ten minutes perhaps. The explosions were
18 terrible, earth-shaking, although this is about 15 kilometres, perhaps
19 about 13 kilometres away as the crow flies from the church and mosque to
20 the place where I was. I didn't know that night what this was all about,
21 but in the morning I heard from the people who lived there, who lived in
22 the area and who I know, they told me that the church and the mosque had
23 been blown up. The pretext was that Muslim and Serb extremists, that's
24 the story I heard from them, they did that. That Muslim and Croat
25 extremists did that in order to blame the Serb side for all this. That's
1 the story that I heard.
2 Q. Looking quickly again at P1128.8, you said this was the Catholic
3 church in Prijedor. Do you know when that was damaged or destroyed?
4 A. The same night when the mosque was, but I don't know which one
5 happened first. Because there were two explosions at the same time. I
6 mean, at the same time, within ten minutes' time, within ten minutes'
7 time, there were two explosions more or less. So over a short period of
8 time, after midnight, two explosions were heard. And now which one was
9 the first one I really can't say.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with those photographs.
12 Your Honour, I have no further questions for the witness.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
14 Now, Mr. Mesanovic, as I explained to you yesterday, the lead
15 counsel for the accused Brdjanin will be cross-examining you. And your
16 duty is to answer his questions as fully and as truthfully as possible.
17 Mr. Ackerman.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need any help, Mr. Ackerman?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: I think I'll get there, Judge. I'm just getting
23 Q. All right. Good afternoon, sir.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. I don't have a lot of questions to ask you, and I think we can get
1 through this rather quickly, if you will listen very carefully to the
2 questions that I ask you and try to answer them as precisely as you can
3 and in as short a way as you can, we'll get you out of here today and you
4 can go home. Okay.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. I want to talk to you first about that time in late July which you
7 said was either late July or early August when a delegation came to the
8 Omarska camp from Banja Luka. All right. Where were you when that
9 delegation arrived at the camp?
10 A. In the glass house.
11 Q. Would you look at 1128.17 and 1128.18 and show us exactly where
12 you were.
13 A. All the time, throughout the six weeks, as I said, I was here,
14 there's an open space in the middle between the restaurant, the entrance
15 to the restaurant, the corridor leading to the cloak room or as we
16 referred to it later, the big dormitory. So there's a space in between
17 where we were.
18 Q. So that's where you were when that delegation came there?
19 A. Yes. That's in the upper right, in the extreme right corner.
20 Q. And that's where you were during the entire time that delegation
21 was there?
22 A. Yes, throughout the six weeks except for the first three days, as
23 I said, at the beginning that I had spent in the white house.
24 Q. How long was the delegation from Banja Luka present in the camp?
25 A. I don't know that.
1 Q. Where did the delegation enter the camp?
2 A. Probably through the main gate to the camp.
3 Q. You didn't see them come in?
4 A. No. No.
5 Q. Where did they go after they came in?
6 A. I couldn't say really. I don't know.
7 Q. Where were they when you saw them?
8 A. Here, in this area, outside the restaurant.
9 Q. And you were able to see through that building that's the
10 restaurant and see them from the glass house where you were through the
11 restaurant to the other side?
12 A. Yes, through the glass panes of the restaurant because that's a
13 building made of glass, both the restaurant and the place where I was.
14 Q. Were you wearing glasses then?
15 A. No. I was ten years younger at that time. I've only worn glasses
16 for the last two years.
17 Q. This was in the heat of the summer. It was probably what, 35
18 degrees that day?
19 A. I have no idea really.
20 Q. Hot, though?
21 A. Probably.
22 Q. And you've described a person showing up in a dark suit?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did that person have grey hair?
25 A. I was not in a position to know. He was a rather short man. I
1 can't quite remember. I had other things to worry about. I can't
2 remember. I only said someone told me who was coming and when they were
3 coming, and we were supposed to greet them with the three fingers, the
4 colour of their hair, the colour of their suit or their eyes, I'm sorry, I
5 can't remember. It has been ten years.
6 Q. So were you just guessing when you said this person was wearing a
7 dark suit?
8 A. I wasn't guessing, but people who were nearer to him. Because I
9 suppose he was the one who got the most attention, and what I learned from
10 my experience is that he would then be the central personality, the most
11 important person if he was the one being extended the greatest amount of
13 Q. And you just assumed that because this one person was getting the
14 most attention that it must have been Brdjanin?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, when the same question was put by the
16 Prosecution, you objected. Your objection was sustained, and now you're
17 doing exactly the same thing.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, I agree. I'm stopping.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
20 Q. You told us that you had seen Mr. Brdjanin on TV very frequently.
21 Before you went to --
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. So I assume Mr. Brdjanin would have been a person that you would
24 have been able to recognise.
25 A. Yes, certainly.
1 Q. Now, it is the case, isn't it, that in just a few days after that
2 Banja Luka delegation came, Omarska was basically closed down, and
3 everybody was moved out. Correct?
4 A. No. No, not everyone had been moved out.
5 Q. All but about a hundred?
6 A. Yes, yes. That's correct.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... left there --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- delegation came?
10 A. I don't know that. You mean the majority? Yes. The majority
11 yes, but the rest of them, I don't know when they were moved out.
12 Q. Do you know who it was from that Banja Luka delegation that
13 notified the world press that Omarska was a horrible place and they should
14 come there? Do you remember who it was that notified them, or do you
16 A. I don't understand.
17 Q. Did you ever hear that anybody from that Banja Luka delegation
18 exposed Omarska to the world?
19 A. No. I only heard --
20 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.
21 A. I only heard about journalists having done that, but...
22 Q. Did you know that just a very few days after that delegation came
23 there, that Roy Gutman wrote an article about Omarska and exposed Omarska
24 to the world. Do you know that?
25 A. Yes, I've heard about that.
1 Q. I'd like you to look at the document P1263, please.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: May I see it before you give it to him.
3 Q. Sir, this is a document that was shown to you by the Prosecutor
4 earlier today. And the Prosecutor asked you to read the first paragraph
5 thereof which involves the dismissal of people from executive posts and
6 posts involving a likely flow of information. Correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what it says.
8 Q. That document dated 22 June, 1992, is it not?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Do you remember the dates on all the dismissal documents that the
11 Prosecutor then showed you? Do you remember that they were 2 May and 4
12 May and 5 May and 7 May?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. So they couldn't possibly have anything to do with that document
15 you're looking at, could they?
16 A. Not with this document, not in terms of the dates.
17 Q. Yes.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Now I'd like you to be shown a document P1182,
20 Q. First thing, you saw this document yesterday, sir. I think you
21 probably remember it. It's dated 4 May of 1992. Correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Do you know that there was no ARK Crisis Staff on 4 May, 1992?
24 Did you know that?
25 A. No. The power was taken over on the 30th of April, and then came
1 the 1st of May, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I think Monday was the 4th of
2 May. There was an incident on the Prijedor/Dubica Road. All Muslims who
3 were found in the bus were killed, and then after that curfew was
5 Q. What I'm interested in, sir, is for you to look at -- first of
6 all, I'd like you to read the first paragraph of this document. Would you
7 just do that, for us, read it out loud.
8 A. "Pursuant to decision number 1/92 of 16 of April, 1992, of the
9 ministry of national defence of the Serbian Republic of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and due to a change of circumstances on the territory,
11 and in order to defend and protect the nation and its assets, and to
12 preserve the peace in these parts, the government of AP Krajina
14 Q. Now, would you go to the last page and look at where the stamp
15 is. Can you read what the stamp says.
16 A. "TO staff, Banja Luka, socialist Republic of Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina, TO staff, Banja Luka."
18 Q. Doesn't say anything about the Autonomous Region of Bosanski
19 Krajina, does it?
20 A. Yes, that's because they didn't have a stamp.
21 Q. How do you know they didn't have a stamp?
22 A. Because yesterday and today, I have been shown a number of
23 documents dated after the 30th of April with different headings, Municipal
24 Assembly of Prijedor, Srpska Republika, Republika Srpska, so I suppose
25 they didn't even have a stamp of their own on the 4th of May, so they used
1 whatever they had, just like the typewriters. Some of them used Cyrillic
2 letters and some of them used Latin lettering. Excuse me, please, Serbian
3 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the stamp reads the socialist Republic of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so they didn't have their own stamp.
5 Q. Look at P1190, please.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before he does that, Mr. Ackerman. We
7 look at the same document, P1182, the front page, very top, the second
8 line is at least translated in the English version as "The Autonomous
9 Region of Bosanska Krajina."
10 MR. ACKERMAN: I was only referring to the stamp, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. But I wanted to highlight that.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: 1190.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: P1190, please, sir.
15 Q. Again, you were shown this yesterday, and I want to call your
16 attention to paragraph 2 under "conclusions." First of all, this is the
17 minutes of the meeting of the National Defence Council of the Municipal
18 Assembly of Prijedor on the 5th of May. That would be the next day after
19 the decision we just looked at regarding mobilisation signed by
20 Mr. Sajic. On the next day, there's a conclusion of the National Defence
21 Council that reads as follows, does it not: "The mobilisation orders
22 following from the decision of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina
23 Assembly are to be carried out when the actual situation in the
24 municipality renders it necessary and in accordance with the needs and a
25 special plan through callup papers issued by the municipal secretariat for
1 national defence." So the National Defence Council in Prijedor is saying
2 "we will comply with that decision when we think it is appropriate for us
3 to do so." Right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, if you look now, sir, at Document P1218 --
6 A. I apologise, but this may be interesting for the Court. Decision
7 of the assembly of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, in that
8 system, could never be carried out or implemented.
9 Because in order for mobilisation in that system, it was clear who
10 was in a position to issue it, but by no means an assembly of an
11 autonomous region which had never existed up to the takeover in Prijedor.
12 That's at least in peacetime.
13 Q. Yes. Look now, will you, sir, at 1218. Now, I think, sir, that
14 this is actually the decision on 22 May, 1992, when there was a decision
15 for mobilisation in the Prijedor Municipality. And if you look at just
16 the first paragraph of this document --
17 A. I apologise. I don't get the interpretation. Yes, all right. I
18 can hear it now.
19 Q. Okay, we're looking, sir, at a document dated 22 May, 1992, which
20 appears to be the actual Crisis Staff decision for mobilisation in
21 Prijedor Municipality. And it recites as the basis for the decision, does
22 it not, "The decision of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
23 about the general public mobilisation of forces and materiel in the
24 republic." Correct?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And so as you have -- as you have pointed out, they couldn't have
2 relied upon anything coming from the Autonomous Region of Krajina, but did
3 rely on a decision from the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 A. Yes, that's correct. But it's an illegal institution. A parallel
6 institution at that time. There was the official Republic of Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina, and the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
8 Q. Yes, I understand your position about that, sir, and it's not my
9 intention to argue with you about that at all. You may take that
10 position, and we'll all understand that that's your position.
11 I want you to look now at -- and I want to just talk a little
12 bit -- well, let's go a different way. Look at 1268, please. Now, a few
13 moments ago, sir, we had looked at that document dated the 22nd of June
14 signed by Milorad Sajic. I'd like you now to look at a conclusion of the
15 Crisis Staff of the Prijedor Municipality, number 116. Could you find
16 that for me, please. You have to -- can you hear me? Are you not getting
17 translation again?
18 A. Yes, I can hear you. It's just that --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... untranslated?
20 MR. ACKERMAN: I think it's untranslated, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I have 115, I have 117, I have 119,
22 and 118.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, that was one of the conclusions that
24 I was waving around this morning that I said had been translated, and I
25 can provide it --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have a copy, we can have it photocopied now
2 and circulated. And in the meantime, you can proceed, Mr. Ackerman.
3 MR. ACKERMAN:
4 Q. Have you found 116, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you just read it in its entirety, starting at the beginning
7 with "Pursuant to articles 3 and 7..."?
8 THE INTERPRETER: May the English copy please be provided to the
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Wait a minute, sir.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't even have it ourselves, Mr. Interpreter.
12 That's what I have asked for. In the meantime, not to waste time, please
13 start reading it slowly, and the interpreters will translate it to us.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Maybe it's better if I read it in English?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You have it in English?
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I do.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you read it in English.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Let's do this. Put it on the ELMO.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Or we could put it on the ELMO.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: I've got yellow highlighting on it.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But that's not a problem now.
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. Sir, you see this document from the Crisis Staff in Prijedor dated
24 23 June, 1992. Do you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the first paragraph says: "The Crisis Staff of Prijedor
2 Municipality does not accept and considers invalid all decisions by the
3 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina adopted before 22 June,
5 Number 2: "The Crisis Staff of Prijedor Municipality shall
6 implement all enactments submitted to it and adopted after June 22nd,
7 1992, by the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region."
8 And then number 3: "Inform the Crisis Staff about this
9 conclusion." What they are saying there is we are not going to pay any
10 attention to any of your pronouncements until after June 22nd, and they
11 are informing the Autonomous Region Crisis Staff that they are ignoring
12 their pronouncements up until that time, aren't they?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. See if you can find decision number 118, sir.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Do we have a translation of that one?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we do have that one translated, yes. If we
17 could have it put on the ELMO, usher, please.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it comes out of order in the English
19 translation, so it's at page 0086-7006.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
21 MR. ACKERMAN:
22 Q. This one is dated 25 June, 1992.
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And it says: "The Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of
25 Krajina is hereby requested to organise a regional secretariat for
1 national defence and make it operational as soon as possible." Do you see
3 A. Yes, I do see that.
4 Q. Now, remember again that document of 4 May that we looked at
5 signed by Milorad Sajic, which said that it was a regional secretariat for
6 national defence. If the authorities in Prijedor were aware of such a
7 document, isn't it curious that they would now be telling the Autonomous
8 Region of Krajina that they should organise a regional secretariat for
9 national defence?
10 A. I don't know what your question would be specifically. The
11 municipal secretariat for national defence did exist before the war,
12 republican secretariat and the federal secretariat as well.
13 Q. But we're talking about the regional secretariat, that didn't
14 exist, did it?
15 A. No, no it did not exist.
16 Q. And you saw that document dated 4 May that purported to be a
17 document from the regional secretariat which you've already told us would
18 not have been possible, and then on the 25th of June, the Crisis Staff is
19 telling the Autonomous Region of Krajina what to do, in effect. They are
20 telling them to organise a regional secretariat for national defence.
22 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
23 Q. All right. One more. Look at decision number 119 now. It's
24 dated the same date. It's dated 25 June.
25 A. Do you want me to read it?
1 Q. It's just paragraph 1 that I'm interested in there, sir. And it
2 says, does it not, that "The Crisis Staff of Prijedor Municipality shall
3 not implement enactments adopted by the government of the Autonomous
4 Region of Krajina until the assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina
5 has elected all members of the government respecting the principle of
6 equal representation of municipalities through the election of their
7 candidates for members of the government." Correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So they have said they are not going to pay any attention to the
10 decisions of the Crisis Staff of ARK. They are now saying they are not
11 going to pay any attention to the enactments of the government of ARK
12 until further notice, aren't they? Correct?
13 A. That's what it says here.
14 Q. I want to look now at some documents from the Autonomous Region of
15 Krajina after June 22nd. The first one I want you to look at is P260.
16 What you have before you, sir, is a decision of the Crisis Staff
17 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina dated 24 June, 1992. Correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So this would be a document after the 22nd of June that they said
20 that they would implement. Correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Look at the -- the first thing I want you to look at is the
23 signature. Do you notice that it is not signed by Mr. Brdjanin, but has a
24 "Za" there?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. The part that I'm interested in is number 2. It says that "only
2 Cyrillic script may be used in public communication." Doesn't it?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Now, I want you to now look at four documents that you can look at
5 altogether rather quickly, 1271, 1272, 1273, and 1274.
6 1271, sir, is a ruling of the executive committee of the
7 municipality of Prijedor, and it's June 30th, after the ARK decision
8 saying "everything should be in Cyrillic" and it's not in Cyrillic, is it?
9 A. No.
10 Q. 1272 is dated 30 June --
11 A. But the stamp is an old one, too.
12 Q. Yes. 1272, dated 30 June, ruling by the executive committee is
13 not in Cyrillic, is it?
14 A. They didn't have any typewriters.
15 Q. This was obviously written on a typewriter.
16 A. Yes, but they didn't have typewriters with the Cyrillic alphabet
17 because all the typewriters went missing and we didn't have a single one
18 in the municipality.
19 Q. So there were no Cyrillic typewriters in Prijedor?
20 A. Correct, at that time.
21 Q. Do you remember the Official Gazette that we have looked at
22 several times over the last few days? I think published --
23 A. Perhaps it was printed at the printing press. Official Gazettes
24 are usually printed at printing presses.
25 Q. But it was not in Cyrillic either, was it?
1 A. I read one that was written in Cyrillic. I can't remember which
2 one exactly now.
3 Q. Take a quick look at P1268, again, sir. If you just want to be
4 certain about that.
5 A. Yes. The 27th of June.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
7 A. No, no.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. Look now please at another exhibit, Your
9 Honours, it's DB97 -- 98, DB98.
10 Q. This, sir, is a decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous
11 Region of Krajina dated 24 June, 1992. The first thing I'll call your
12 attention to, again, is the signature is not that of Mr. Brdjanin, but
13 says "Za." Do you see that?
14 A. I see that. But usually, drawing on my own experience, my
15 secretary could authorise me to sign something on his behalf. So he
16 authorised someone, some of his closest associates, to sign for him. But
17 it only had to be a person who you authorised. It cannot be just anyone.
18 It can be an authorised person who also had the seal. I'm talking about
19 before. Every worker had the seal of the secretariat for national
20 defence, but they did not have the right to sign anything, only authorised
21 persons had the right to sign their names on documents.
22 Q. Are you familiar with a meeting of several municipalities called
23 the Sanska Una association of municipalities that met, I think, in May?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And voted to try to get rid of Mr. Brdjanin and replace him with
1 Mr. Kupresanin? Are you familiar with that at all?
2 A. I don't remember. I was not given access at all. I only
3 continued doing what I could do, but this was all on their orders, orders
4 of my colleagues from work, not the secretary any longer.
5 Q. You don't know if Mr. Brdjanin authorised anybody to sign this
6 document for him, do you?
7 A. I'm sorry. I said that in the practice that existed, and I think
8 that that applies generally, I said who could sign a document. Only
9 authorised persons, that's what I said. It can't be just anyone signing
10 an official document, an official document of a particular institution.
11 Q. But it would be someone to whom you would entrust the stamp and
12 give them authority to sign, wouldn't it?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. What does the stamp say on this document?
15 A. Yes. Because it says "For the president."
16 Q. What does the stamp say?
17 A. "The Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Banja Luka, the Serbian
18 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina," and then it says, "Banja Luka" in the
20 Q. It says the "assembly," it doesn't say the Crisis Staff, does it?
21 A. The Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. It's a
22 technical matter.
23 Q. Do you know the Crisis Staff had its own stamp?
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. All right. This document says, in paragraph 2: "Immediately
1 check military conscripts of Serbian nationality without a registered
2 domicile and place of residence in the Autonomous Region of Krajina who
3 failed to register with the competent secretariat for national defence.
4 "Organise their transfer to the municipalities from which they
5 departed and turn them over to the competent secretariat for national
7 Do you know if the authorities in Prijedor implemented that
9 A. The 24th of June, 1992. If this was in the morning, after 9.30, I
10 was already in a cell.
11 Q. But my question was do you know if that was implemented, because
12 you heard things even after you were in a cell.
13 A. What was that? How could I hear about it in a cell whether a
14 decision had been implemented. I was arrested on the 24th of June, 1992,
15 around 9.30 in the morning.
16 Q. So the answer is you don't know?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. How about paragraph 3, do you know that one? "Check all persons
19 wearing uniforms without authorisation and pretending to be members of
20 military organs and organs of the interior and act in keeping with the law
21 on law and order and other laws, disarm them and take away their uniforms
22 and act in keeping with legal regulations." Do you know if that was
23 implemented in Prijedor?
24 A. It's the same document. Believe me, I don't know. The same
25 document. After the meeting, minutes are typed out. Could have been on
1 the 25th, and then antedated the 24th.
2 Q. I think it's the case, sir, that you don't know of anything that
3 was done in Prijedor on the directions of the Crisis Staff of the
4 Autonomous Region of Krajina, do you?
5 A. No, no.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I have. Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination, Ms. Sutherland?
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Re-examined by Ms. Sutherland:
10 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, can you just look at the document, I think DB98.
11 Mr. Ackerman took you to II and asked you about whether you knew whether
12 the military conscripts of Serbian nationality who hadn't been registered
13 and who failed to register were turned over to the competent secretariat
14 for national defence. He asked you whether that had been implemented in
16 A. I said that I didn't know because I had been arrested on that day.
17 Q. And that document is dated the 24th of June, 1992. And he also
18 asked you -- he put it to you that you didn't know about anything that had
19 been carried out at the directions of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous
20 Region of Krajina in Prijedor. I want to take you to several documents
21 now. The first one you looked at a moment ago, which is P1182. That is
22 the document dated the 4th of May signed by Lieutenant-Colonel Sajic.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Paragraph 1 calls for a general public mobilisation on the entire
25 territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina --
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object. This is not a Crisis Staff
2 document. The question has to do with the Crisis Staff. This is not a
3 Crisis Staff document.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Where are you heading, Ms. Sutherland?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm going to show the witness a number of
7 documents which show that the mobilisation was implemented in Prijedor.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: But we're talking -- the document DB98 is dated 24th
9 of June, 1992. So if there was an implementation, in a sense, of a
10 mobilisation dated 4th May of 1992, it's preceding the decision of the --
11 or the order of the Crisis Staff. And therefore can never amount to an
12 implementation of that order. So I would allow you to make reference to
13 any document that is post-24th June, 1992, but not anteceding.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I confused myself. I
15 didn't want that document for that reason. I wanted it for another
16 reason. And then I will go back to another document Mr. Ackerman showed
17 the witness for the same point I was about to make.
18 Q. Sir, looking at DB98, Mr. Ackerman took you to the stamp of that
19 document and said that that was the Autonomous Region of Krajina Assembly.
20 Can you please read out the block of the document on the top left-hand
21 corner of the document.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object. I was referring to the
23 stamp, not the block in the upper left-hand corner. The whole question
24 had to do with where the stamp was from.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But there can be an explanation for that,
1 Mr. Ackerman.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: His answer to me that caused that question was you
3 can authorise someone to use your stamp and sign your name "Za," and the
4 whole point of the question was that this was not someone who was
5 authorised to use the stamp of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region
6 of Krajina because what they used was the stamp of the Assembly. And --
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the witness has just testified that they used
8 the stamp because there may not have been a stamp for the Autonomous
9 Region of Krajina Crisis Staff, and so the Assembly stamp was used --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not argue in front of the witness. Put your
11 question, please.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND:
13 Q. Witness, can you please read the block on top of the document
14 dated the 24th of June, 1992, of DB98.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, again, I have to object.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: But your objection is not being sustained because --
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I have a different objection.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You have a different one now.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's hear it.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: My objection is that before I asked him a question
22 about this, I told him it was a document of the Crisis Staff of the
23 Autonomous Region of Krajina. And all she is doing is asking him --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear --
25 MR. ACKERMAN: -- if that's what it is. Of course it is.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: -- what the question is first. And then if you are
2 right, I will ask him not to answer it.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: I can see that's what it is.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear it first. I mean, I am not going to stop
5 Ms. Sutherland before she asks the question.
6 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Sir, can you please read the block on the top left-hand corner of
9 the document.
10 A. The Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of
11 Krajina, Crisis Staff, Banja Luka.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And your question?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. The Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff, would that be part
15 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina Assembly, part of the same government?
16 A. Now I'm confused. Let me just tell you what I've learned on the
17 basis of my experience. This is what we called a letterhead, and it had
18 to correspond to the stamp. So probably in their hierarchy, the Crisis
19 Staff was probably subordinated to the Autonomous Region. The Autonomous
20 Region could give orders to the Crisis Staff. The stamp does not
21 correspond to this, and the two have to be the same. The letterhead and
22 the stamp. Once it says Serb, once it says Assembly, and then there is
23 this stamp that is used, it's quite simple.
24 Q. Was it your testimony earlier in response to a question by
25 Mr. Ackerman in relation to the stamp that there may not have been a stamp
1 for the Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff?
2 A. Yes, because they used the stamp of the socialist Republic of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the Assembly of Banja Luka. It did not say the
4 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whatever. So they used the old
5 stamp, but a new letterhead like on many other documents where the two did
6 not coincide.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: So in other words this is a supposition, having seen
8 other documents with this so-called anomaly.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The old stamp.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: It is your conclusion or your supposition or your
11 belief that the reason for that is they did not have a proper stamp for
12 the Crisis Staff of the ARK?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I assume.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 Ms. Sutherland.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Could the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit P1182.
18 Q. This is the decision --
19 A. Yes, I have it here.
20 Q. -- you've seen on a couple of occasions dated the 4th of May.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And it's from the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, regional
23 secretariat for National Defence.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the decision calls for a general public mobilisation on the
1 entire territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. That all conscripts on the territory are obliged to be at the
4 disposal of the municipal TO headquarters. And then number 5, all
5 paramilitary formations and individuals in possession of illegal weapons
6 and ammunition are asked to surrender those weapons and ammunition
7 immediately, and it continues to the municipal TO headquarters or the
8 nearest public security station.
9 That's at the Autonomous Region of Krajina level. Can I take you
10 now to P1190, which are the minutes of the National Defence council of the
11 Municipal Assembly of Prijedor held on the 5th of May, 1992, the day after
12 the previous document. Does it state there under conclusions, under
13 number 2, that the mobilisation orders following from the decision of the
14 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina Assembly are to be carried out?
15 Mr. Ackerman asked you questions on that, and then paragraph 7: "All
16 paramilitary units and individuals who possess weapons and ammunition
17 illegally are called upon to surrender them immediately. And it goes on
18 to the public security station in Prijedor or its nearest office.
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. In your view, are the minutes of the 5th of -- the National
21 Defence Council on the 5th of May implementing the decision of the
22 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina regional secretariat for National
23 Defence of the 4th of May, 1992?
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to this. It's not even
25 possible because paragraph 2 refers to a decision of the Autonomous Region
1 Assembly, and there is no decision of the Assembly that we've seen
2 regarding mobilisation. It's just the secretariat for National Defence.
3 So it can't possibly be referring to the same document.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what's your position on Mr. Ackerman's
5 objection, Ms. Sutherland?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think the witness can answer the
7 question in relation to mobilisation in the Prijedor area.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: But your question was a very direct one. It's very
9 specific. In your view, are the minutes of the 5th of May, the National
10 Defence Council, on the 5th of May implementing the decision of the
11 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, regional secretariat for National
12 Defence of the 4th of May, 1992? You're obviously referring to the
13 mobilisation in particular.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can look at conclusions -- in the
15 document P1182, the decision paragraph numbered 1 and 2.
16 Q. Is that identical or does that --
17 A. I apologise.
18 Q. -- in the conclusion of the 5th of May, 1992, at paragraph 2?
19 A. Let me make this clear: The Autonomous Region of Krajina, that's
20 a region, that's an area that's part of the country. And the Assembly is
21 the body representing the people living in that area.
22 Q. I understand that. If you look at paragraph 5 in the decision of
23 the 4th of May, is that the same as the decision in the Prijedor NDC
24 minutes in paragraph 7?
25 A. 7. Correct. Yes.
1 Q. If you also look back to P1182 of the 4th of May, if you look at
2 paragraph 4, the president's of the all people's defence councils are
3 responsible for implementation of this decision and are given the
4 authority to do so. In your view, with your experience of 13 years in the
5 mobilisation department in the people's -- secretariat for people's
6 defence, are the minutes of the 5th of May of the Prijedor National
7 Defence Council implementing the decision of the 4th of May issued by the
8 regional secretariat for National Defence?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, the 4th of May document, P1182,
10 specifically in the introductory part specifically says the decision is
11 not of the regional secretariat for National Defence, but the decision is
12 of the government of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. And under the Autonomous Region of Bosanska
14 Krajina it talks about the regional secretariat for National Defence.
15 That's the block.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's the confusion. I mean --
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I can move on.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Prosecution
20 Exhibit P1195.
21 Q. This is a praecipe of the minutes of the SDS municipal board
22 meeting held on the 9th of May, 1992. The title block at the top
23 left-hand corner is the Serbian democratic party of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
24 SDS municipal board, Prijedor.
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Can I take you to halfway down the page where it mentioned Milan
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Does it say there that instructions and decisions are being
5 forwarded from the top, and the functions of the government at the level
6 of Krajina can now be felt?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Can I take you now to Prosecution Exhibit P194.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this is a decision of the Autonomous
10 Region Krajina Crisis Staff held on the 14th of May, 1992. It's also
11 included in Prosecution Exhibit 227, which is the entire Official Gazette
12 of the Autonomous Region Krajina 2 of 1992.
13 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, if you read conclusion number 1, "The Security
14 Services Centre of the Autonomous Region of Krajina shall consistently
15 carry out the decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of
16 Krajina on the disarming of paramilitary units --
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour, we don't have this
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither do we, Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think anybody has it.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps, we could --
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to Prosecution Exhibit 227.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ms. Sutherland, we have over stepped our time
24 limit. We need to make a break. In the meantime, please procure, if you
25 are going to refer to other documents which were not already in the bundle
1 that we had prepared for this witness, please make sure that they are
2 available. In the meantime, we'll stop for -- would you agree 15 minutes,
3 Mr. Ackerman?
4 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine, Your Honour.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
7 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, just before the break, I asked you to look at
12 Exhibit P194. Could you also -- do you have that exhibit, P194? And
13 that's a decision --
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't have it yet. And I thought we
15 were going to get copies during the break so we could all have it.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: I thought we were going to our binders. Have you
17 got P194? It's part of Prosecution Exhibit 227, do you have that, the
18 Official Gazette 2 of 1992, the entire ARK Official Gazette? It's in
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Was it on the list for this witness?
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, it's re-examination, Mr. Ackerman.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously it wasn't. But this is what I tried to
23 make you understand before we had a break, that in our case, it's not a
24 big deal because we can get our secretaries and they can bring the binders
25 up, even though that is time consuming. But I don't expect the Defence to
1 bring with them all the binders and all the documents that have been
2 tendered so far in these 11 months or 10 months so that when all of a
3 sudden, we come across one document that has not been indicated to them
4 before, they are expected to dig it up.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: I take your point, Your Honour. This is a
6 document that has been referred to on a number of different occasions,
8 JUDGE AGIUS: But we were not prepared for it, and understandably
9 so because it's re-examination. Mr. Ackerman couldn't have been prepared
10 for it as well, and while I can only blame myself if I don't have it here
11 because I could get it through my secretary, I can't blame Mr. Ackerman if
12 he hasn't got it right in front of him available.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I apologise for not having the copies for the
14 Defence, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If you have an extra copy available,
16 perhaps we could place it on the ELMO, Mr. Ackerman.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: The English translation is on the ELMO.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's proceed.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, this is a conclusion from a meeting of the Crisis
21 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina held on the 14th of May, 1992.
22 Can you read the first paragraph of the conclusions -- actually, I will
23 read it for you. It states: "The Security Services Centre of the
24 Autonomous Region of Krajina shall consistently carry out the decision of
25 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina on the disarming of
1 paramilitary units and individuals who are illegally in possession of
2 weapons and ammunition.
3 "The weapons should be handed over to the nearest public security
4 stations where officers shall issue receipts confirming the return of
5 weapons." And that is -- has a signature block of the president, Radoslav
6 Brdjanin. Can I take you now to Prosecution Exhibit P1195 --
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, could we put the signature block that
8 has just been referred to on the ELMO so you can see what it looks like.
9 There is no signature and there is no stamp, and I object to this document
10 on that --
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: There is a signature and there is a stamp.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see it. Can you put it on the ELMO, usher,
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear the witness.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, could you repeat what you said.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a dispatch in the form of a
17 fax, but it's not a scanned fax. It's a typewritten fax. I can't
18 remember what the machine is called. Because that's the form of the
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then in the end, you have the
22 code as to who has sent the number and whom it was sent to. The name,
23 what the name was, and then the machine that was used to send this.
24 That's before faxes and scanners were used.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And however, Ms. Sutherland, the document that you
1 were flagging --
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Is P194.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- to show that it had a stamp after Mr. Ackerman
4 had objected indeed had or showed a stamp, but I don't see a stamp on what
5 we have on the ELMO now. Is it the same document?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. This is -- as the witness
7 correctly points out, the B/C/S version of Exhibit P194 is, in fact, a
8 fax. The copy that I was provided this afternoon is this document which
9 can be put on the ELMO, and it may have to be given the Exhibit Number
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it the same document or not?
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's the same document, but this is the Cyrillic
13 type with a stamp and a seal on it. So it's not the same document in
14 form, but in substance. So I think it should be given an exhibit number,
16 JUDGE AGIUS: But it may well be the same document in substance,
17 but it's a different document.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. I agree.
19 Could you show that to Mr. Ackerman, please, usher, that document.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You see life begins to get complicated at 6.00. And
21 it tends to get worse by the time we reach 7.00.
22 We need someone to confirm to us that that is basically the same
23 document as far as content is concerned, substance is concerned.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it is the same document. It is not
25 Mr. Brdjanin's signature. I think it is the signature of Boro, who was
1 the secretary.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I said the signature block. I
3 didn't say it was signed by Mr. Brdjanin.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: The stamp is --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The socialist federation.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: The Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina,
7 which Boro was also the secretary of.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND:
10 Q. Sir --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait a moment. Yes, all right. Okay.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can we mark this document P194.1.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the name is of Brdjanin but signed for him.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can this document be marked P194.1.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. Sir, I read out paragraph 1 of that conclusion. I would now like
18 you to look at Prosecution Exhibit P1209.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Procedure that will be following, incidentally while
20 the document is found, is that all these documents will then be admitted
21 en bloc at the end, rather than each time saying this is being admitted,
22 this is not being admitted, et cetera. If there is an objection that will
23 be decided on the spot, but otherwise, we'll go ahead and then admit
24 everything en bloc at the end, keeping the exhibit number that is
25 indicated from time to time as we go along by the Prosecution and by the
1 Defence. Okay.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, do you have a copy of P1209?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I don't think so.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Ackerman, do you have yours?
5 MR. ACKERMAN: No, we don't.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: We have two here at the bar table.
7 Q. Sir, this is P1209, minutes of the fourth meeting of the council
8 for National Defence of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly held on the 15th
9 of May, 1992, which is the day after the previous document we have just
10 looked at.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't have the document. I can't
12 even -- okay, I do have it. I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: The other copy is on the ELMO. So I suppose we can
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. Sir, can you go to the paragraph -- can you see where it says ad
19 1, ad 2 and 3, and then it says ad 4. And ad 4, the words under it say
20 disarmament of paramilitary formations.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, we need to move, because we are still -- what
22 we have on the ELMO is ad 1.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: We need to have ad 4 on the ELMO.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Disarmament of paramilitary formations, and then a number of
2 persons participated in the discussion, Simo Drljaca, Radmilo Zeljaja,
3 Slavko Budimir, Rade Javoric, Milan Kovacevic, Bosko Mandic, and Ranko
4 Travar. After the discussion the following conclusion was adopted --
5 A. Excuse me. I don't have ad 4.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I must object to this in any event.
7 Apparently it's being shown to you to counter my contention that Prijedor
8 paid no attention to orders from the Autonomous Region of Krajina or its
9 Crisis Staff, and this simply confirms that. The order in this regard
10 from this the Autonomous Region had predetermined deadlines by such and
11 such a date at 1500, everything like that. They are doing it their own
12 way. They are saying we don't have any deadlines. They are doing it
13 their own way. They don't indicate they are aware of anything coming from
14 the Autonomous Region.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's an argument, Mr. Ackerman.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I think it's improper redirect, because it doesn't
17 go to the cross-examination at all. It's brand new stuff. She is
18 bringing in all brand new stuff here.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: With respect, Your Honour. I don't believe I
21 JUDGE AGIUS: That happens on re-examination.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm showing that on the 14th of May a certain
23 decision was issued by the Autonomous Region Krajina Crisis Staff. On the
24 15th of May the Prijedor National Defence Council have a meeting -- could
25 I have the document so that I can show you what to put on the ELMO.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: On the Elmo we have --
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, to show the witness.
3 Your Honour, the B/C/S, that page, is missing from the B/C/S
4 version of that exhibit. I have it here. We will substitute the exhibit
5 here. I apologise.
6 Q. Sir, can you see ad 4 now in a language you understand?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And after the discussion I mentioned a number of names a moment
9 ago, the following conclusion was adopted, the public security station in
10 concert with the army command should draft the plan of disarmament after
11 which the actual process should be set in motion [without predetermined
12 deadlines] and with the assistance of the media.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Looking now at Exhibit P1268, decision number 116, which is a
15 document that Mr. Ackerman took you to relating to the Prijedor Crisis
16 Staff of the 23rd of June wherein it was held that they were not going to
17 implement any of the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff before the 22nd of
18 June, 1992.
19 Given the documents that I have just taken you through, what is in
20 writing and what is reality are two different things. Would you agree?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And so it can be shown from those decisions on mobilisation and
23 disarmament of the population issued by the ARK Crisis Staff that they
24 were then implemented by the Prijedor Crisis Staff?
25 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know what decision of the ARK Crisis Staff
1 she is referring to. I don't think there is such a thing.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: The 14th of May, 1992.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: That was not a decision of the ARK Crisis Staff.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: The 14th of May.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: That was a decision of the government, I think,
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: The 14th of May was a Crisis Staff decision.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Crisis Staff. What I want to know from the witness
9 also, in addition to what you have been asking him, is if he has an
10 explanation why in practice -- why they would have come to the conclusion
11 number 116, what need was there and what was the reason behind that
12 decision if, according to what the Prosecution is suggesting to you, and
13 you seem -- you tend to agree, in practice, they were implementing the
14 decisions of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, or of the Crisis Staff of
15 the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the documents that I've
17 seen today that were shown me, the mobilisation in certain places was
18 ordered by the Assembly of the Autonomous Region. In some places it only
19 says the Autonomous Region. This is practically the Crisis Staff of
20 Prijedor Municipality carrying out the orders of the Crisis Staff.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, on your point, there is the --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I know the reason.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Decision 119 that Mr. Ackerman took you to
24 earlier that you could --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But I want to hear what the witness has to say about
1 it. Because he agreed with you that there is a conflict between the
2 practice and what was being preached.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: The other matter that I wish to ask you some
4 questions about relates to Mr. Ackerman's question to you about all the
5 decisions issued by the executive committee of the Prijedor Municipality
6 of the 2nd and the 4th and the 7th of May, 1992, in relation to dismissals
7 and appointments. Dismissals of non-Serbs and appointments of Serbs to
8 those positions.
9 Q. He showed you a document dated the 22nd of June issued by the
10 Autonomous Region Krajina Crisis Staff which said "only people in leading
11 positions -- only positions can be held by Serbs." And then said to you:
12 All these other decisions of the 2nd and the 4th and the 7th of May can't
13 possibly relate to that decision, can they. And you answered "no." Can I
14 take you now to Exhibit P227, which is the Autonomous Region Krajina
15 Official Gazette number 2 of 1992.
16 Can you look please, at conclusion number 4, which is a meeting of
17 the Crisis Staff --
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, can we just wait until I can see the
19 document before there's a question asked.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman is right.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I was simply taking the number and
22 the date more for the usher's benefit than anybody's.
23 Q. At a meeting held on the 8th of May, 1992, the Crisis Staff of the
24 Autonomous Region of Krajina --
25 MR. ACKERMAN: I object, Your Honour, the documents that I was
1 referring to were the 2nd, 3rd, 4th of May, I think. The dates are all in
2 early May before the 8th of May. There wasn't even a Crisis Staff until
3 the 5th. So this doesn't go to my cross-examination. It's a brand new
4 thing, and I object to it.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, but it says the 4th of May,
6 1992, Banja Luka, in the left-hand corner.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me see the document because like this way, we
8 can't work. This is the Official Gazette of the Autonomous Region of
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Published on the 5th of June,
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, published on the 5th, but referring to a
13 decision of the ministry of National Defence of the Serbian --
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's the first decision. Decision number 4.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go to decision number 4.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's a Crisis Staff decision of the 8th of May.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, you have to move us forward to decision
18 number 4. I wouldn't know which page that is --
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's on 0088-2893.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So now we're talking of the 8 May.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I referred to Exhibits 1174, 2 May;
23 1175, 2 May; 1178, 4 May; 1181, 4 May; 1188, 5 May; 1189, 5 May; 1191, 7
24 May --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speaker please slow down.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, slow down, Mr. Ackerman. The purpose of your
2 question at the time was to obtain from the witness an explanation --
3 first a confirmation that those documents were not in Cyrillic script, but
4 in ordinary Latin script.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Those were later documents. The purpose regarding
6 these eight documents --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: The decisions were not being followed.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: There was no decision from the ARK Crisis Staff
9 regarding dismissing people from their jobs on the 2nd, 4th, 5th, or 7th
10 of May. And now she is going to counter that with a decision of the 8th
11 of May. That's improper.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. Your objection is sustained,
13 Mr. Ackerman.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND:
15 Q. Besides the documents that I showed you which were dated the 2nd
16 and the 4th and the 7th of May, 1992, were you also shown a number of
17 documents dismissing people from their posts after the 7th of May, 1992,
18 that I showed you earlier today?
19 A. I think so. A woman who was replaced towards the end of her term.
20 Q. There was also a document in relation to Dr. Osman Mahmuljin which
21 was dated after the 7th of May. Is that correct?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, Ms. Sutherland, you don't need to ask the
23 witness the question because these documents were already referred to in
24 the course of his testimony, and that can be established. The date of
25 each document can be established. So, for example, Document P1200 is
1 definitely dated 13th May.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: And they all have the same preamble, Your Honour.
3 Not one of them refers to any decision to the Autonomous Region of
4 Krajina. They are all based upon what the Crisis Staff in Prijedor is
5 doing totally on their own.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I was about to take the witness to
7 the Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So go straight there, Ms. Sutherland.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- documents.
10 Q. In relation to decision number 4, can you please read the second
11 paragraph of paragraph number 9. I'll read it for you, in fact.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, please place it on the ELMO.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no idea where we are.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: The 8th of May, 1992. 0088 --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the same document that you had in front of you
16 a couple of minutes ago.
17 Let's hear the question first before you object, Mr. Ackerman.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: There are three documents I want to take him to
19 before there will be a question. So from paragraph 9 of the decision of
20 the 8th of May, 1992, it states, second paragraph: "All management posts
21 and enterprises must be held by persons absolutely loyal to the Serbian
22 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina." The signature block on that document
23 is president of the Crisis Staff, Radoslav Brdjanin.
24 Can you now look at decision numbered 6, which is on page ERN
25 0088-2901. It's a meeting of the Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis
1 Staff --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down, Ms. Sutherland, because the usher has to
3 catch up with you, has got to find the two versions, in B/C/S, and the
4 witness also.
5 Have you found the page, the right page?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Decision number 6.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could you bring the B/C/S version to me, please.
9 And the second paragraph of the second conclusion: "Only persons loyal to
10 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina may make decisions on the
11 implementation of the general mobilisation in public and economic
13 It goes on: "Decisions adopted by the war staff of the Autonomous
14 Region of Krajina are to be strictly respected in all public and economic
16 Can you then, please, go to decision numbered 7, which is in the
17 English translation 0088-2903. And that is a conclusion of the Crisis
18 Staff of the Autonomous -- I'm sorry, just going back to the conclusion on
19 the 9th of May, the signature block is the president of the Crisis Staff
20 Radoslav Brdjanin. Then on decision number 7: "At its session held on
21 the 11th of May, 1992, the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of
22 Krajina reached the following conclusion: The second paragraph under
23 paragraph 5 reads: "Management posts in Krajina enterprises must be
24 filled by persons who are absolutely loyal to the Serbian Republic of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina." And that has a signature block of the president of
1 the executive council Nikola Erceg.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not what I have in front of me.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry. I'm sorry, Your Honour. President of the
4 Crisis Staff, Radoslav Brdjanin.
5 Q. Sir, was it your experience of the people in the Prijedor
6 municipality, were the non-Serbs of the leading posts dismissed in the
7 Prijedor Municipality?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to that. It can very well be
10 that they were dismissing people in Prijedor, but the issue here is
11 whether it was a result of anything that was being done by ARK or not. So
12 he obviously knows people were being dismissed --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: And he answered that question repeatedly before when
14 he was asked to confirm all the documents that he was referred to. So I
15 think -- I mean I think your objection is sustained.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have no further questions of this
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
19 So Mr. Mesanovic, this brings us to the end of your testimony in
20 this trial. On behalf of the Tribunal, myself, and the other two Judges,
21 I would like to thank you for having come over to give evidence. You will
22 be given all the attention you require now after being escorted out of
23 this courtroom to enable you to return to where you came from or where you
24 would like to go. Once more, I thank you. And you may now leave the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have got 6 minutes to decide what next.
4 Number 1, I have been given a bundle today of statements referring to a
5 particular witness.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not mentioning the name because I don't quite
8 know whether he's a protective witness or not as yet. This is what I'm
9 referring to. Is this a witness we are having next week?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, on Monday.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: On Monday.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's what I'm led to believe, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I just wanted to make sure. However, in my
14 lists --
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Sutherland, please.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: This is from Kljuc?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So that's not a problem. All
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Ms. Gustin has informed me that the
22 statements and transcripts of the next witness, Witness 7.45, will be
23 provided to you tomorrow.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the witness we were supposed to hear today.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Although we need to touch base with Mr. Ackerman
1 first. He has advised us of the redactions he wishes to make to the
2 transcripts of that witness, and we need to speak with him.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make things clear, because I prefer to be
4 precise on this. Are we referring to Witness BT3?
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. I'm sorry. Last week -- first,
6 let me begin again. The next witness, pseudonym BT3, Witness 7.185, the
7 Prosecution now does not intend to call her to lead certain evidence that
8 was going to be redacted --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And my legal officer spent I don't know how many
10 hours making us a summary of what her testimony --
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the decision was taken after lunch
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: The reason I didn't inform you was because the
15 witness was in the middle of testifying, and I needed to provide
16 Mr. Ackerman with a document in relation to her not testifying.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: And I haven't been able to do that yet.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So 7.185, you are renouncing, too.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: We are seeking, after I speak with Mr. Ackerman,
21 to tender the transcripts from the two trials into evidence, but we will
22 not be calling her to testify about what has been redacted from one of
23 those transcripts.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand she is here. No?
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So what's the next step? Who is the next witness?
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: The next witness is the witness that you have the
3 documentation for now.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's Kljuc Municipality, and not
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. How long do you anticipate your
8 additional -- your addendum?
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Ms. Korner anticipates spending at least three to
10 four days with that witness.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
12 Mr. Ackerman.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, that may be in total. I think she
14 will spend at least two days with the witness in chief.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So she thinks that Mr. Ackerman is worth half of
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Because she said three days, two for her, one for
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, with regard to this witness,
21 Mr. Trbojevic is going to be doing the cross-examination. He has been
22 listening to the tapes. Mr. Brdjanin has also been listening to the
23 tapes, but I still think there may be several hours. There's time between
24 now and Monday for him to hear. And behind that, there is one that is
25 just enormous in terms of the number of hours of tape. That's Witness
1 7.45. Somewhere here I have the number of hours. 7.45 is 36 and a half
3 JUDGE AGIUS: What we want to know, Mr. Ackerman, and
4 Ms. Sutherland, is once we have disposed of this Kljuc Municipality
5 witness, who will be the first witness we'll hear for the Prijedor
7 MR. ACKERMAN: That is 7.45, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So 7.185, we have spoken about. What's happening to
9 7.225 and 7.179?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I will try and be as clear possible, Your
11 Honour. 7.225 was due to come next week -- this week. But due to
12 commitments, he was unable to come. And he is now being placed around the
13 20th of November.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And 7.179? He was listed number 5. That's
15 before --
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that was the situation where there
17 were two extremely large witnesses back to back, and I had requested of
18 the Prosecution to try to separate them.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's number 5.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: To separate them, to give me a chance to be
21 prepared. And they kindly agreed to do that. And witness number 5 agreed
22 to come later, which moved us to then number 6, 7.45, who will be our next
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And that I would imagine is going to take us quite
25 some time.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: It is going to take quite some time, but what I
2 would suggest to you is because of the number of hours of tape, the 36 and
3 a half hours, and the fact that Mr. Brdjanin has to spend most of the time
4 between now and Monday listening to the tapes of Monday's witness, that
5 it's unlikely that we should try to start Witness 7.45 any time next
6 week. I think we'll be four days with the major witness who is coming
7 next week in any event, but it would be very difficult, I think, to start
8 with that witness. We could possibly do it, but it would be difficult.
9 The problem is, you know, not only does Mr. Brdjanin have to listen to 36
10 and a half hours of tape, but I have to meet with him for a significant
11 amount of time for him to tell me what he heard on that 36 and a half
12 hours of tape that I should know in terms of preparing my
13 cross-examination. And frankly there isn't anybody that can help me in
14 terms of understanding more than Mr. Brdjanin can help me, and I really
15 rely on my conferences with him to understand this case.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, perhaps we could start the witness
17 on Friday, and then that would give Mr. Ackerman at least the weekend to
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, discuss it, please, with Ms. Korner between
20 now and Monday when we reconvene.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can I just say, Your Honour, just in relation to
22 the witness I said had been pushed down to the 20th of November. But we
23 provided Mr. Ackerman with a new order of witnesses and we will give the
24 same to the Trial Chamber this afternoon.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So I understand that there is no
1 sitting tomorrow then.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. And we'll all meet, please God,
4 on Monday. Monday next week, all the sittings are in the morning.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if I may, unless Mr. Ackerman wishes
6 to call this witness, 7.185, for cross-examination once he has received
7 these documents, he may not, and he may just agree to the transcripts
8 going in Rule 92. So perhaps if I can somehow get this document to him in
9 the next five minutes, he can let me know whether he wants the witness to
10 be here tomorrow.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. If he will be in a position to do
12 that --
13 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm certainly willing to try. I just haven't seen
14 the document.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway. These are things that can be thrashed
16 between you. And if there is a decision along the lines that you are
17 suggesting or hoping for, then just let us know. That's all.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All week is morning sittings next week. Thank you.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
21 at 6.33 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
22 the 4th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.