1 Tuesday, 5 November 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you hear me
9 in a language that you can understand?
10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
11 I can hear you and I understand you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
13 Appearances for the Prosecution.
14 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner and Ann Sutherland assisted by Denise
15 Gustin, case manager, good morning Your Honours.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
17 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
18 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I'm
19 Milan Trbojevic, attorney at law, together with me is lead counsel,
20 Mr. John Ackerman and Marela Jevtovic our legal assistants.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you. Shall we go --
22 anything before we go into closed session?
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour there is one matter I want to raise
24 having yesterday but at the end of the whole session having only had a
25 chance yesterday to read Your Honour's ruling on the disclosure of Rule 68
1 material, there are a couple of factual mistakes which I ought to correct
2 but I'll do that if I may like Mr. Ackerman yesterday if we adjourn at --
3 adjourn -- stop the witness at about 25 to 2.00.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And from your part? Okay? So Madam
5 Registrar, could we go into closed session, please?
6 [Closed session]
13 Pages 11392-11465 – redacted – closed session
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's just in relation to Your Honour's
22 ruling which as I say I only had a chance to read yesterday, of the 30th
23 of October in relation to Mr. Ackerman's motion.
24 Your Honours, in paragraph 11, stated that we had failed to
25 disclose the Kondic Rule 68 material because it had only come up in a
1 search we were doing on Prijedor material. And it refers to the
2 discussion in the unofficial transcript as a footnote. Your Honour, all I
3 want to say is this: In fact I understand why whoever was trying to
4 summarise this made that error but I never said that. What I was saying
5 was that we had unfortunately delayed in the disclosure and I accepted
6 full responsibility for it because the investigator who was present had
7 been taken off that disclosure to deal with the Prijedor Rule 68 searches
8 that were going but it wasn't that it came up in that. We knew it was
9 there. It just fell through the cracks. But I felt it wasn't right to
10 take credit for something that wasn't actually right or something that I
11 didn't say. That's the first thing.
12 Your Honour, the references to the transcript page numbers are
13 right but if one reads it you'll see that's not what I said.
14 And secondly, Your Honour, I think again there was a lot of
15 discussion and I was referring to a table. Your Honours were under the
16 impression that there were only two additional interviews which had not
17 had Rule 68 disclosed. That is in fact incorrect. And I think again
18 there was an elision. Your Honour I referred to a number of Prijedor
19 interviews that had been conducted in connection with the Stakic case and
20 then I referred separately to what I described as confidential, as which I
21 said there were a couple. In actual fact, we having now, and we are more
22 or less completing the exercise to comply with Your Honour's order. There
23 are a further, we worked this out yesterday -- where is my note? There
24 were five people interviewed in connection with the Stakic case, of which
25 disclosure I think has already been -- there is just one more to come but
1 four out of the five have already been disclosed and then there were
2 altogether, including interviews conducted with persons in respect of the
3 military prosecutions, but there were a total of 12 altogether. So
4 those -- there were 12 people who the Defence had not had anything from
5 but it's been disclosed at the moment, but again, I didn't want Your
6 Honours to feel in some way you were being misled. I'm afraid it was
7 partly the way matters developed during the course of that hearing.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any comments from your part, Mr. Ackerman?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, she's absolutely correct with regard to the
10 first part. That's exactly what she said.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Second part, the more the better.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing is that the whole matter is
14 being taken care of. That's most important. Thank you for clarifying
15 certain points, Ms. Korner.
16 So I think we can rise. Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I just have a sort of nagging sense in
18 the back of my mind that there is a motion or two outstanding, the
19 Prosecutor has filed, that I have not responded to, and I would like to go
20 home and check that and have your leave to file a response in the event
21 that I might be a day or two late.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I also would like you to address your attention
23 to some motions that have been filed by Defence counsel for General Talic,
24 some of which I am positive have -- are not to be discussed in this trial
25 or by this Trial Chamber or decided by this Trial Chamber, but there is
1 one or two that probably need to be discussed and decided upon by this
2 Trial Chamber. So I would like you, if you have been served, the
3 Prosecution has filed responses to them. I don't know whether you have
4 been served with any of these as Defence counsel in the Brdjanin case. At
5 least there is one of which I'm positive that you must have been served
7 MR. ACKERMAN: There is one that involves certain evidence -- to
8 prohibit certain evidence in the Brdjanin case.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: There is one which requests this Trial Chamber to
10 authorise the release to General Talic of the basically the proceedings in
11 this case.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honours, as we say in Texas, I don't
13 have a dog in either one of those fights so I really don't plan to answer
14 either one of them unless you actually ask me too. I don't really have
15 an answer.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just addressing you since you mentioned pending
17 motions I'm addressing you to these in case you require some sort of
19 MS. KORNER: I think the only one that was filed within this
20 constituted Trial Chamber is the one about the release of material.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so, yes.
22 MS. KORNER: And Your Honours have seen our response and we have
23 nothing further to add. I think outstanding is our application under Rule
25 JUDGE AGIUS: There is another one, Ms. Korner, which is a little
1 bit of an anomalous kind of request, in the sense that it is filed in
2 Talic's case but asking that Trial Chamber to order this Trial Chamber not
3 to allow certain questions or allow certain evidence to be brought forth.
4 MS. KORNER: That's already been dealt with in this Trial Chamber
5 as a result of the application which I think we said.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But any way, please do whatever you have
7 that you need to be debated here, do let us know and we'll find the time.
8 Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Is there any update on the progress on a ruling
10 regarding Ms. Maglov.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We talked about it earlier on today. We are dealing
12 with it but, there is an order of priority and -- I'm being told also
13 judicial notice that's an important one.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: That's the one that I was kind of thinking about in
15 the back of my mind.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to answer that.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I will answer that probably today, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: The Ms. Maglov decision we will come down with when
19 we really find the time to give a well-reasoned decision.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, let me just say this to give you some
21 sense that there might be a matter of urgency with regard to. There is
22 nobody that has more knowledge of the documents in this case up until the
23 time she left the case, than she does, and if she is to be cleared of
24 everything, then I might very well want to have her as a legal assistant
25 or something, because she would be great assistance to me.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: There is also the other possibility, Mr. Ackerman,
2 and I don't think that possibility would help you much. So let us take
3 our time.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Take all the time you want, Your Honour. I just
5 wanted to make sure that you understood that part of it. I certainly see
6 the other side of it too.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour the last thing Your Honour indicated you
8 wanted a meeting and I don't think you indicated which day or what time.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going -- in fact, I was going to end with
10 this -- end up with this. I was going to suggest tomorrow for a meeting
11 during one of the breaks we will have a half an hour break, either the
12 first one or the second one, and we will meet in my Chambers together with
13 Mr. Rohde and sort out the problem of the hours involved in -- or needed
14 for the proper preparation of this case following the disclosure of tapes
15 and printed material.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: We probably also would need to get Ms. Monica
17 Martinez involved since she is taking over that position from Mr. Rohde.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: But Mr. Rohde has already advised me on that and so
19 I'm perfectly aware of it. I'm also informed that there have been
20 informal consultations between you and Mr. Rohde already and that Mr.
21 Rohde has indicated to you what he would be prepared to concede. In any
22 case, I don't think we can even think of -- conceive of a meeting, of such
23 meeting, leaving out Mr. Rohde. Ms. Martinez of course will be present
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Please don't hear me as having said that we should
1 leave Mr. Rohde out. He should definitely be there.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, so Ms. Chuqing could you inquire about the
3 availability of them for tomorrow. If it's not convenient for them, any
4 of the two normal breaks, that is the one at 10.30 and the other one at
5 12.30 then if they have other suggestions we could adjust the time of our
6 sitting accordingly and have a break when it's convenient for them. Yes.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: One other brief thing I've been told that we are
8 meeting Monday morning at 9.00 and that that's our schedule for Monday and
9 in view of that I want to make -- to schedule some important matters for
10 Monday afternoon. If that's the way it's going to be, please don't change
11 it because what I want to do Monday afternoon is very important.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Monday we are meeting in the morning, yes, 11 of
14 MS. KORNER: And Tuesday we are moving to court II.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Tuesday we are moving to Courtroom II.
16 MS. KORNER: Also in the morning.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's in the afternoon, Tuesday.
18 MS. KORNER: It's in the afternoon is it?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: If we can move it in the morning then it will be
20 much better because I'm flying back home on that day. So we could
21 actually move the sitting to the morning, it will be better.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes, because the rate we are going I
23 don't think we are going to get beyond there witness this week. And the
24 witness 7.45 who is actually arriving today but to listen to his tapes.
25 But if possible, we ought to be able to complete in those two days so he
1 doesn't have to hang around or be sent back because that's what happened
2 in Stakic.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: We will definitely not complete his
5 cross-examination in that time. We won't even get close. We might get a
6 direct done but cross-examination is going to be, who knows, five days?
7 I don't know, something like that.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. Ms. Chuqing? So we'll meet tomorrow
9 morning at 9.00.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
11 1.51 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
12 the 6th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.